📄 Redirect examination of Michele Kestler (2 of 2) — Thursday, June 30, 1994
Address:
C:\DEPT103\PRELIMINARY\1994\JUN\30\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-MICHEL.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 1 of 6

Redirect examination of Michele Kestler (2 of 2)

Witness: Michele Kestler
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, June 30, 1994 • Lines: 81
Clark used redirect to clarify the location and characteristics of hairs recovered from the knit cap and to explain why only rooted hairs could undergo PCR testing. Kestler relied on FBI guidance and a textbook coauthored by Henry Lee to support collecting 30 to 100 hairs for microscopic comparison, then described her extensive experience determining whether blood samples were sufficient for DNA testing and splitting.
1 THE COURT:

All right. Ms. Clark, do you have some additional questions of the witness?

2 MS. CLARK:

I do, Your Honor, very briefly.

3

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

4

BY MS. CLARK:

5 Q:

Ms. Kestler, with respect to the knit -- with respect to the knit cap, item number 38, you indicate that on the interior of the cap was located 34 human hairs?

6 A:

The 34 hairs, as she stated here, that were from the interior and exterior of the cap.

7 Q:

That's total.

8 A:

That's total.

9 Q:

Okay. Okay. Two of those 34 hairs are consistent with body hair. Is that --

10 A:

Two are consistent with body hair.

11 Q:

And were those two that were consistent with body hair found to be demonstrative of Negroid or Caucasian characteristics?

12 A:

She didn't characterize them at this point, and she also didn't -- this is our hair analyst -- we have not had time to look at them to see if we can tell that. Very often body hair is so fine and so small it's impossible to determine origin.

13 Q:

And with respect to body hair, is that capable of being -- do those two hairs have roots?

14 A:

Apparently it's not indicated here, and I don't have her notes. I just realized that she did not indicate roots or no roots.

15 Q:

Can that be determined?

16 A:

Yes.

17 Q:

And then of the 32 head hairs, 25 were found to have Negroid characteristics?

18 A:

Yes. That's correct, counsel.

19 Q:

And those came from the interior of the cap?

20 A:

No, those are both from the interior and exterior.

21 Q:

And then the hairs that were determined to be primarily Caucasian, chemically treated blond hairs, those were from the exterior?

22 A:

Exterior.

23 Q:

Is it your plan at this time to subject all of the hairs to both P.C.R. and microscopic analysis?

24 A:

The only hairs that would be subjected to P.C.R. analysis would be those with the roots. The rest would be microscopic examination.

KEY QUOTE
25 Q:

Okay. And based on -- in order to perform a microscopic analysis and comparison of hairs, how many head hairs do you need to retrieve from a suspect for the purpose of comparison?

26 A:

I have a couple of references here, and the references all indicate 30 to 100 hairs. One of my references is from a book, "forensic science, an introduction to criminalistics," by Peter De forest, Robert gaensslen and Henry C. Lee.

27 THE COURT:

I'm sorry, is that the same Henry Lee that we had testimony concerning?

28 MICHELE KESTLER:

Yes, it is. It's the only Henry Lee I know. I'm assuming that's the one I was questioned about. On page 211 --

29

BY MS. CLARK:

30 Q:

Of that book?

31 A:

Of that book.

32 Q:

coauthored by Henry Lee?

33 A:

yes, of which I have extra copies here, if anybody wants to have one.

34 MS. CLARK:

May I approach, Your Honor?

35 THE COURT:

Yes.

36 MICHELE KESTLER:

On page 211, the first known samples of hair -- and we're talking about microscopic examination here, not D.N.A. analysis. They're two separate -- entirely separate types of analysis needing separate samples. "Known samples of hair should be given careful consideration. If questioned head hairs are to be submitted, then the known sample should contain representative samples from different parts of the scalp. Ordinarily, the hairs should not be cut. Vigorous combing or massaging of scalp will usually yield 30 to 40 --" and he uses the term "telogen hairs." That's basically adult hairs or fully grown hairs. "If the questioned sample is thought to contain anagen hairs -- " which are pre-adult hairs, if you will -- "then so must the known sample, and these must be plucked. It is advantageous to have both plucked and combed hairs in the known sample in any case, and they should be packaged and labeled separately." And then I have another quote from the F.B.I., from a symposium held on "proceedings of the international symposium on forensic hair comparisons," and again I have copies for anyone who wishes to read them.

37 THE COURT:

Is this the one you furnished copies of to everyone?

38 MICHELE KESTLER:

Yes, that's the correct one.

39

BY MS. CLARK:

40 Q:

May I refer you to -- Ms. Kestler, may I refer you to page 11 of that document that has been furnished to court and counsel which you furnished to me this morning. Page 11.

41 A:

Right. That's correct.

42 Q:

The second paragraph.

43 A:

"It is recommended that a known head hair sample consist of at least 20 hairs from each of 5 different areas of the scalp," and then refers to, "center, front, back and both sides." "And that these hairs be obtained by both pulling and combing." And then it goes on to talk about a little bit of procedure in doing that collection. And then it goes on to talking about how we select that or what the routine procedure for selecting a random sample of those hundred hairs is. And that's where we have come up, over the years, from different sources, for wanting between 30 to 100 head hairs for microscopic comparison for the exemplar.

KEY QUOTE
44 Q:

Now, this article that you're quoting from, that you've just quoted from, was put out by the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

45 A:

That's correct.

46 Q:

It's dated 1985?

47 A:

That's correct.

48 Q:

To the best of your knowledge, has the practice changed any among criminalists concerning the size of sample required for effective microscopic analysis of hairs?

49 A:

No, it has not.

50 Q:

And the book you quoted from, coauthored by Henry C. Lee, the portion that you have just read to us would seem to indicate also --

51 MR. SHAPIRO:

Your Honor, the form of the question is improper.

52 THE COURT:

I haven't heard the end of the question yet, so I can't quite rule.

53

BY MS. CLARK:

54 Q:

Reading the article that you've read to us, the portion of the article you've read to us from the book coauthored by Henry Lee, what do you deduce concerning his practice or advised practice in terms of the size of sample required to do an effective microscopic analysis of hairs?

55 A:

Well, it appears to purport that the authors of this book indicate that a minimum of 30 to 40 hairs is necessary before you can do a -- before you have an adequate sample.

KEY QUOTE
56 MS. CLARK:

Your Honor, I'm going to ask that the pages that have been xeroxed by the witness be copied for both counsel and one for the court, and I'd like to mark it -- or also admit this for the Court's consideration in addition to the article that I've furnished the court with this morning.

57 THE COURT:

All right. Did you want to then Mark those as actual exhibits with regard to the motion?

58 MS. CLARK:

Yes, Your Honor.

59 THE COURT:

And so we'll denote "proceedings of the international symposium on forensic hair comparisons" article is people's exhibit number 1 for purposes of this motion only.

60 MS. CLARK:

Thank you, Your Honor.

61 THE COURT:

And would you describe the title of the other document, please.

62 MS. CLARK:

Yes, Your Honor. It's entitled "forensic science, an introduction to criminalistics," authored by Peter de forest, R.E. Gaensslen, g-a-e-n-s-s-l-e-n, and Henry C. Lee.

63 THE COURT:

And you want to denote that as People's 2 for this motion?

64 MS. CLARK:

Yes, Your Honor, thank you.

65 THE COURT:

All right. Do you have additional questions of the witness at this time?

66 MS. CLARK:

Just a couple of more, Your Honor, thank you.

67 THE COURT:

All right.

68

BY MS. CLARK:

69 Q:

With respect to the information that you've given us concerning D.N.A. analysis and the quantities of evidence required to perform those tests, where did you get that information?

70 A:

The analysis -- the amount of sample needed for D.N.A. analysis has been given to us over the years by different entities and experts in the field, including the F.B.I., Cellmark private laboratory, Cellmark diagnostics. Obviously, before we send something to them, we needed to know that they purported to be the minimum sample that was required. It began when we first started the quarter size sample of blood that was necessary to do R.F.L.P. analysis and they've progressed to what they refer to as a nickel size, which equates to one of our one centimeter square swatches soaked heavily with blood.

71 Q:

So do you undertake to conduct that evaluation with respect to blood evidence on a routine basis, and that evaluation being whether or not an evidence sample of blood is sufficient in quantity or quality for D.N.A. testing?

72 A:

Yes. We do -- we have sent out over 100 cases for R.F.L.P., all of which have been evaluated in the same manner that we discussed here today, and those contained in excess of 400 items, which we've evaluated for R.F.L.P. or P.C.R. or other types of analysis. And it's basically done on the basis that we discussed here today.

KEY QUOTE
73 Q:

And when you say, "R.F.L.P." and "P.C.R.," you're referring to tests for D.N.A.?

74 A:

Yes, two different types of testing for D.N.A., that's correct.

75 Q:

So the evaluation process to determine how much -- whether you have a sufficient sample for further testing is something that is done by you on a routine basis?

76 A:

Yes.

77 Q:

And have you previously been consulted before as to whether there is sufficient evidence blood to allow for a split?

78 A:

In other cases, yes.

79 Q:

And is that also done by you on a routine basis?

80 A:

Yes. In the last couple of recent years, I've turned that over to other people, but in the beginning when we first began sending out D.N.A., I strictly did the evaluation myself.

81 MS. CLARK:

I have nothing further.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Michele Kestler
The only hairs that would be subjected to P.C.R. analysis would be those with the roots. The rest would be microscopic examination.
Kestler distinguished which hairs could undergo DNA testing from those limited to microscopic comparison.
Michele Kestler
It is recommended that a known head hair sample consist of at least 20 hairs from each of 5 different areas of the scalp
The FBI guidance supported the prosecution's position that a substantial representative sample was necessary for a reliable comparison.
Michele Kestler
Well, it appears to purport that the authors of this book indicate that a minimum of 30 to 40 hairs is necessary before you can do a -- before you have an adequate sample.
Kestler invoked a text coauthored by Henry Lee to support her opinion about the minimum adequate hair exemplar.
Michele Kestler
We have sent out over 100 cases for R.F.L.P., all of which have been evaluated in the same manner that we discussed here today, and those contained in excess of 400 items
Kestler emphasized her practical experience to establish that evaluating samples for DNA testing was routine work for her laboratory.

Evidence (5)

Informal
Knit cap, item number 38, bearing 34 human hairs from its interior and exterior; 25 head hairs had Negroid characteristics, two were consistent with body hair, and chemically treated blond Caucasian hairs were found on the exterior.
discussed
Informal
Hair roots and known head-hair exemplars, including the recommendation to collect 30 to 100 hairs from different scalp areas by pulling and combing, for PCR or microscopic comparison.
discussed
People's 1
The FBI publication “Proceedings of the International Symposium on Forensic Hair Comparisons,” recommending at least 20 known hairs from each of five scalp areas.
marked for purposes of the motion only
People's 2
Pages from “Forensic Science, an Introduction to Criminalistics,” by Peter De Forest, R.E. Gaensslen, and Henry C. Lee, addressing collection of known hair samples.
marked for purposes of the motion
Informal
Blood evidence samples and one-centimeter-square swatches heavily soaked with blood, used to assess whether enough material exists for RFLP or PCR DNA testing and evidence splitting.
discussed

Notable Exchanges (3)

Marcia ClarkMichele Kestler
Clark clarified that the cap's 34 hairs came from both its interior and exterior, while the chemically treated blond Caucasian hairs were specifically on the exterior.
revealing
Kathleen Kennedy-PowellMarcia ClarkMichele KestlerRobert Shapiro
The judge identified Henry Lee as a coauthor of Kestler's reference, and Clark used the text to support Kestler's sample-size opinion despite Shapiro's objection to the question's form.
strategic
Marcia ClarkMichele Kestler
Kestler described her laboratory's routine experience evaluating hundreds of items for RFLP and PCR testing, reinforcing her qualifications to decide whether blood evidence could be split.
rehabilitative

Light Moments (1)

Michele Kestler
When the judge asked whether the cited author was the same Henry Lee previously discussed, Kestler replied, “It's the only Henry Lee I know.”

Objections

1 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)
Proceeding 9053 • 81 lines • Prosecution witness
Preliminary Trial
Department 103
📂 JUN 30, 1994 📄 Redirect examination of Michel
JUN 30, 1994