📄 Continued cross-examination of Michele Kestler — Thursday, June 30, 1994
Address:
C:\DEPT103\PRELIMINARY\1994\JUN\30\CONTINUED-CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 1 of 6

Continued cross-examination of Michele Kestler

Witness: Michele Kestler
Examiner: Robert Shapiro
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, June 30, 1994 • Lines: 95
Robert Shapiro questioned LAPD criminalist Michele Kestler about newly supplied reports concerning hairs and fibers recovered from a glove and two caps, including a cap found in the Bronco. Kestler detailed the hairs' colors, lengths, roots, and microscopic characteristics, while explaining that rooted hairs could not yet be released for independent testing because the laboratory might need them for DNA analysis; one item's analysis was still unfinished.
1 THE COURT:

Ms. Kestler, if you could re-take your seat on the witness stand. \ \ Michele Kestler, called as a witness by and on behalf of the People, having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed the stand and was examined and testified further as follows:

2 THE COURT:

You have previously been sworn and continue under oath.

3 MICHELE KESTLER:

yes, Your Honor. Thank you.

4 THE COURT:

Mr. Shapiro.

5 MR. SHAPIRO:

Thank you very much, Your Honor.

6

CROSS-EXAMINATION

7

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

8 Q:

Mrs. Kestler, the information that we have just reviewed that was handed to us just before the noon recess consists of a one-page document, dated 6/29/94, that lists four items as hairs and fibers. Do you know which document I'm referring to?

9 A:

Not off -- no. Could you tell me the item numbers?

10 MR. SHAPIRO:

May I approach the witness, Your Honor?

11 THE COURT:

Yes.

12 MICHELE KESTLER:

Oh. This is a property report, yes.

13

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

14 Q:

Are you familiar with that document?

15 A:

Yes, I am.

16 Q:

Are there any other documents that have been prepared, to your knowledge, that relate to the hairs that were removed from items 9, 27, 37 and 38?

17 A:

Yes. In that same package along with that document there was a report -- or two reports on hair items in regard to those property items booked.

18 MR. SHAPIRO:

May I just have a moment to get those, Your Honor?

19 THE COURT:

Yes.

20 MICHELE KESTLER:

Plus, I also was able to review and complete, for our hair analyst, two more reports on two more items of hair that we discussed earlier this morning and I said were awaiting my approval, and I have copies here.

21 THE COURT:

So you're indicating you have some additional discovery for both counsel?

22 MICHELE KESTLER:

Yes, I do.

23 THE COURT:

Mr. Shapiro and Ms. Clark, do you want to approach the witness stand and pick up your copies of that?

24 MS. CLARK:

Thank you, Your Honor.

25 MR. SHAPIRO:

Thank you very much.

26 MICHELE KESTLER:

Thank you, Your Honor.

27 THE COURT:

All right.

28 MR. SHAPIRO:

May I just have a moment, Your Honor?

29 THE COURT:

Yes. \ \

30

By mr. shapiro:

31 Q:

Could you summarize for us, please, the number of hairs that you recall were found in item number 9.

32 A:

I believe you have the copy of the report. I'd have to review that.

33 Q:

You don't have that?

34 A:

No, I don't have that.

35 Q:

Let me give you all these copies and maybe we can work together.

36 A:

Sure, that's no problem.

37 MR. SHAPIRO:

May I approach the witness stand, Your Honor?

38 THE COURT:

If you keep your voice up, yes.

39 MR. SHAPIRO:

Thank you, Your Honor.

40 THE COURT:

Just to remind me, is item number 9 the glove?

41 MICHELE KESTLER:

Yes.

42 MR. SHAPIRO:

Yes.

43 THE COURT:

Thank you.

44 MICHELE KESTLER:

And item number 19 were items removed from number 9. Just let me make sure of that before I say something wrong here. Yes. Item number 19 contained hairs and fibers removed from item number 9. So this report here, the first report, is referring to item number 19. And in that item there were three human head hairs, blond in color, and they ranged in length from 3.5 to 29.5 centimeters, and exhibited predominantly Caucasian characteristics. They also exhibited indications of possible chemical treatment, bleaching. And none of them had roots. And then there were also several fibers and animal hairs which we haven't had time to characterize further at this time.

45

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

46 Q:

Would you be able to give us the same summary, please, for item number 27, the cap that was found on the driver's floor of the Bronco.

47 A:

Surely. Item number 111 contained -- the new item number 111 is the hairs and fibers removed from item number 27, the cap. and that contains among the hairs was six human head hairs ranging in color from brown to black, ranging in length from 1.1 to 2.2 centimeters, and exhibiting predominantly Negroid characteristics. Two of these hairs have intact roots and the remaining four hairs do not have intact roots. And then it goes on to talk about several fibers and animal hairs which we have not characterized at this time. And some insect activity which is --

48 Q:

Regarding the two hairs which are intact with roots --

49 A:

Um-hum.

50 Q:

-- Would it be possible to have your laboratory keep one and share one with an independent laboratory?

51 A:

Not at this time, because there's no guarantee that with one hair you can do P.C.R. or any kind of -- it's not necessarily conclusive. We made need both to do D.N.A. analysis on. One is not always enough.

52 Q:

With the four hairs that do not have roots --

53 A:

Yes.

54 Q:

-- would it be possible to share those for independent analysis?

55 A:

Well, I believe rather than -- we are going to -- our approach to that normally would be -- let me just put it in that form -- would be re-analyze all four because we don't know whether they're similar at this point, came from similar -- same individual or could have come from the same individual. We would like to compare all four of those hairs to our exemplars, and then using via a master criminalist or something to that effect, allow your laboratory to have all four of those hairs or whatever, and they could be viewed by you, all four of them. You can't split the hairs. I think we went through this. I heard this on the news.

56 THE COURT:

Yes, we did go through that. Hairs are not consumed in the analysis?

57 MICHELE KESTLER:

No, they're not, not in microscopic analysis.

58 THE COURT:

So as far as that goes, once you did whatever you were going to do with the hairs, the ones without the roots, they could go to the defense and they could do whatever they wanted to do with the hairs, assuming they weren't destroyed in some way in the analysis?

59 MICHELE KESTLER:

That's correct.

60

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

61 Q:

The ones without the roots are not consumed in the analysis.

62 A:

Just the one part that is consumed in the a D.N.A. test. The rest remains.

63 Q:

With regard to number 37, would you be kind enough to tell us the type of evidence recovered from that item, please.

64 A:

That must be the report that you have. Or do I still have it? I have 58. Thank you.

65 Q:

You're welcome.

66 A:

Well, I have some notes on that. Apparently that must be one of the reports -- I thought that was in your package that I gave you yesterday. Item number 37? Oh, that's the one that's not completed. Okay. That analysis is not completed at this time. We're still working on that.

67 Q:

So you cannot tell us how many hairs --

68 A:

No, I cannot.

69 Q:

-- Or what type of hairs they were?

70 A:

No. That's still being worked on.

71 Q:

Do you know when you'll have that result?

72 A:

Hopefully by Monday.

73 Q:

And regarding item number 38.

74 A:

Item number 38, that was completed. Item number 113 are hairs, fibers, et cetera, and debris removed from item number 38, and the blue knit cap --

75 MICHELE KESTLER:

item number 38 is the blue knit cap.

76 THE COURT:

Thank you.

77 MICHELE KESTLER:

Let me just get -- summarize down to the important part. There were 34 human hairs. 32 are consistent with head hair and two are consistent with body hair. among the 32 head hairs, 25 are dark reddish brown to black in color, ranging in length from 0.7 to 3.5 centimeters, and exhibiting predominantly Negroid characteristics. Additionally, four of these 25 hairs have intact roots while the remaining 21 do not. And these came from both the interior and exterior surfaces of the knit cap.

78

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

79 Q:

Of the four -- I'm sorry. Complete your answer, I'm sorry.

80 A:

Okay, thank you. From the remaining seven head hairs, five are blond in color and range in length from 3.0 to 8.5 centimeters and exhibit predominantly Caucasian characteristics, and exhibit indications of chemical treatment, I.e., bleaching. These hairs were all located on the exterior surface of the cap. The remaining two head hairs also located on the exterior surface of item 38 are brown and reddish brown in color, 1.0 and 0.9 centimeters in length respectively, and exhibit predominantly Caucasian characteristics. None of the above described seven hairs have intact roots. And then there's several animal hairs and fibers which we have not characterized at this time.

81 Q:

Was there any blood found on item number 38?

82 A:

Not on 38 per se at this time. We removed the hairs and fibers and have not done a complete blood search for it, but I believe it was laying near blood at the crime scene, and so it wouldn't surprise me if it's contaminated with blood.

83 Q:

Of the four hairs that were inside that appeared to be Afro American hair that have roots --

84 A:

They have Negroid characteristics. They are not necessarily African American hair. That's a characteristic -- terminology used in hair only, and I'm afraid they've never changed it, so we have to stick with that.

KEY QUOTE
85 Q:

Of those four hairs --

86 A:

Um-hum.

87 Q:

-- Are any of those available to an independent examiner?

88 A:

Again, not at this time. The ones with roots?

89 Q:

Yes.

90 A:

I'm sorry. The ones with roots, again, until the D.N.A. is done, I prefer not to -- we don't know. We don't know the strength. We don't know how old the hairs are, so we don't know how strong the D.N.A. would be in the root. Again, at this time, we wouldn't want to give them up until our testing is done.

91 Q:

Where will that testing take place?

92 A:

I believe -- we haven't totally decided where we're going to do it yet, but it probably will be done by an independent lab.

93 MR. SHAPIRO:

Your Honor, may I retrieve the documents that were given to me?

94 THE COURT:

Certainly.

95 MR. SHAPIRO:

And I have no further questions. Thank you.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (5)

Michele Kestler
In that item there were three human head hairs, blond in color, and they ranged in length from 3.5 to 29.5 centimeters, and exhibited predominantly Caucasian characteristics.
Kestler identified blond hairs recovered from the glove and described their forensic characteristics.
Michele Kestler
You can't split the hairs. I think we went through this. I heard this on the news.
Kestler explained the practical limits on dividing individual hairs between prosecution and defense laboratories.
Michele Kestler
There were 34 human hairs. 32 are consistent with head hair and two are consistent with body hair.
This introduced the quantity and basic classification of the human hairs recovered from the blue knit cap.
Michele Kestler
They have Negroid characteristics. They are not necessarily African American hair.
Kestler corrected Shapiro's characterization and emphasized that microscopic hair terminology does not establish a person's racial identity.
Michele Kestler
Again, at this time, we wouldn't want to give them up until our testing is done.
Kestler resisted releasing rooted hairs for defense examination before DNA testing, highlighting the dispute over preservation and independent access.

Evidence (11)

Informal
A one-page property report dated June 29, 1994, listing items 9, 27, 37, and 38 as hairs-and-fibers evidence.
discussed and provided to counsel as additional discovery
Informal
Laboratory hair-analysis reports, including two newly completed reports that Kestler had approved for the hair analyst.
discussed and distributed to both counsel
Item number 9
The glove from which hairs and fibers were removed.
discussed
Item number 19
Hairs and fibers removed from the glove, including three blond human head hairs with predominantly Caucasian characteristics, possible bleaching, and no roots, plus uncharacterized fibers and animal hairs.
discussed
Item number 27
A cap found on the driver's floor of the Bronco.
discussed
Item number 111
Hairs and fibers removed from item 27, including six brown-to-black human head hairs with predominantly Negroid characteristics; two had intact roots and four did not.
discussed and challenged regarding access for independent testing
+ 5 more

Notable Exchanges (4)

Michele KestlerKathleen Kennedy-PowellRobert ShapiroMarcia Clark
Kestler produced newly completed hair-analysis reports during cross-examination, prompting the judge to direct both counsel to collect their copies as additional discovery.
procedural
Robert ShapiroMichele KestlerKathleen Kennedy-Powell
Shapiro repeatedly asked whether hairs from the Bronco cap could be shared with an independent laboratory. Kestler explained that rooted hairs might be consumed or require multiple samples for DNA testing, while rootless hairs could later be examined microscopically by the defense.
strategic
Robert ShapiroMichele Kestler
When Shapiro called certain samples "Afro American hair," Kestler corrected him, explaining that the laboratory finding was only that the hairs exhibited "Negroid characteristics."
corrective
Robert ShapiroMichele Kestler
Kestler said item 37 remained under analysis and that its hair count and characteristics would hopefully be available by Monday.
revealing

Light Moments (1)

Michele Kestler
While explaining why hairs could not literally be divided, Kestler added, "I think we went through this. I heard this on the news."

Objections

None recorded
Proceeding 9052 • 95 lines • Prosecution witness
Preliminary Trial
Department 103
📂 JUN 30, 1994 📄 Continued cross-examination of
JUN 30, 1994