Direct examination of Jose Camacho

📄 Direct examination of Jose Camacho — Thursday, June 30, 1994

Address:

C:\DEPT103\PRELIMINARY\1994\JUN\30\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-JOSE-CAM.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 1 of 6

◀ Allen Wattenberg excused and next witness requested Cross-examination of Jose Camacho ▶

Witness: Jose Camacho
Examiner: William Hodgman
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, June 30, 1994 • Lines: 233

Ross Cutlery salesman Jose Camacho identified O.J. Simpson and testified that Simpson bought a 15-inch collectible German-made knife for $81.17 in cash, asked that it be sharpened, and left with it in a plastic bag. Camacho also admitted that, after intense media pressure, he signed a National Enquirer contract and expected $12,500 for telling the story, creating a significant credibility issue that the prosecution addressed directly.

# 1 MR. HODGMAN:

I do. Mr. Jose Camacho. Mr. Camacho, I understand, is sequestered in the hallway. I guess that's not really a sequestration.

# 2 THE COURT:

Face the clerk, raise your right hand, please, sir. THE COURT CLERK: You do solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in the cause now pending before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god.

# 3 JOSE CAMACHO:

Yes, ma'am. jose camacho, CALLED AS A WITNESS ON BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: THE COURT CLERK: Please be seated. State and spell your name for the record.

# 4 JOSE CAMACHO:

Jose Camacho. It's J-O-S-E, Camacho, C-A-M-A-C-H-O, Camacho.

# 5 THE COURT:

Thank you. You may inquire.

# 6 MR. HODGMAN:

Thank you very much, your Honor. / / /

# 7

DIRECT EXAMINATION

# 8

BY MR. HODGMAN:

# 9 Q:

Mr. Camacho, you work at the CUTLERY STORE known as Ross cutlery, located at 310 south Broadway, in the City of Los Angeles, do you not?

# 10 A:

Yes, sir.

# 11 Q:

And, sir, how long have you been working there?

# 12 A:

I've been there for 22 years.

# 13 Q:

And what is your job there, Mr. Camacho?

# 14 A:

I'm a salesman.

# 15 Q:

Mr. Camacho, I'd like to direct your attention to the individual I'm standing behind. Do you recognize this man, sir?

# 16 A:

Yes, sir, I do.

# 17 Q:

And who is this man?

# 18 A:

That's Mr. O.J. simpson.

# 19 MR. HODGMAN:

Indicating the defendant, your Honor.

# 20 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 21

BY MR. HODGMAN:

# 22 Q:

And, Mr. Camacho, have you ever seen the defendant in the CUTLERY STORE where you work?

# 23 A:

Yes, sir, I do -- I did.

# 24 Q:

And do you recall about when that was, Mr. Camacho?

# 25 A:

Oh, this is about nine or ten weeks ago, something like that.

# 26 Q:

Do you recall the exact date?

# 27 A:

Be like -- close to may -- on may -- I can't recall exactly the date.

# 28 Q:

Your best estimate is nine to ten weeks ago; is that correct?

# 29 A:

Yes, sir.

# 30 Q:

Now, Mr. Camacho, on the date that you saw the defendant in the store where you work, was there anything unusual or extraordinary going on outside the store?

# 31 A:

they were filming a movie there, at the front of the store.

# 32 Q:

At any point in time, during the course of that filming, did you go out and take a look, see what was going on?

# 33 A:

Yeah. We got to the lobby, you know, we were watching all the actors there.

# 34 Q:

And at some point in time, during the afternoon hours of the date of this filming, did you see the defendant come into the CUTLERY STORE?

# 35 A:

Yes, he walked into the store.

# 36 Q:

And tell us what happened after the defendant entered the store.

# 37 A:

When I saw him walking into the store, I just, you know, I was looking at him. And then I knew who -- who he was. And then he asked to see some knives. So I showed him where the knives were.

# 38 Q:

Now, sir, at the time the defendant asked you to see some knives, do you recall where you were within the store? Meaning were you near the north display counter of the store, the south display counter of the store?

# 39 A:

Well, when he come -- when he walk into the store across the front, then I walked through the back of the store, where those knives were. And he asked me some prices for the knives, so I just give him some prices.

# 40 Q:

Did you show him, the defendant -- excuse me. Withdraw that. Did the defendant express some interest in various knives?

# 41 A:

He liked one special knife, it's a small knife, it's made by case. And I showed it to him.

# 42 Q:

tell us a little bit about the knife, the best you can recall.

# 43 A:

it's a collectable item. It's a knife that isn't made anymore. So, it's a nice looking knife. And he, when I showed it to him, he say that he wanted to buy it, but at that time, he didn't have no money to purchase it. So, he told me that he was going to come back and buy it. And then, at that time, he got called, you know, to go and film again. So he left.

# 44 Q:

Mr. Camacho, sometime later that afternoon, did you see the defendant in the store again?

# 45 A:

Yes. He came back about 45 minutes or an hour later.

# 46 Q:

What happened when the defendant came back later that afternoon?

# 47 A:

When I saw him walking in back to the store, so I knew who he wanted. So I walked through the back of the store, tried to show him the knife again. But then somehow he -- I guess he liked some other knife, at the entrance.

# 48 Q:

So what happened, Mr. Camacho?

# 49 A:

So, I follow him where he was going to the front of the store. And then I showed him -- or I didn't show him, my boss was in front already.

# 50 Q:

By "your boss," to whom are you referring to, Mr. Camacho?

# 51 A:

Mr. Allen wattenberg.

# 52 Q:

The witness that just testified before you?

# 53 A:

Yes, sir.

# 54 Q:

And what happened there, at the front of the store, in the vicinity of Mr. WATTENBERG?

# 55 A:

When I got there, he was already showing a certain knife that he -- that he purchased.

# 56 Q:

What type of knife was Mr. wattenberg showing to the defendant?

# 57 A:

He showed him one of the -- it's a German made knife. It's also a collectable. It's made by a company called Chris and green. It's a knife that is 15-inch of length.

# 58 Q:

Mr. Camacho, directing your attention to the left side of the witness stand, to four photographs that have been collectively marked as People's 1. Do you see that exhibit, sir?

# 59 A:

Yes, sir.

# 60 Q:

Do those appear to be photographs of the type of knife that, at one point that afternoon, was sold to the defendant?

# 61 A:

That's the -- that's the item I sold him.

KEY QUOTE

# 62 Q:

Or more accurately, an item like the one you sold him; is that correct, to your knowledge?

# 63 A:

Yes, the first one is the item, or like the one I sold to him.

# 64 Q:

Did Mr. wattenberg continue to assist the defendant in the display of this particular knife, or did you have some role in the transaction?

# 65 A:

Well, when I got close to them, another customer was waiting for me. So I went and wait on this other customer. When I finished waiting this other customer, I went back to Mr. O.J. simpson, to finish the sale that I was doing.

# 66 Q:

Did Mr. wattenberg remain --

# 67 A:

And then --

# 68 Q:

Pardon me. Did Mr. wattenberg remain with you and the defendant while the sale was completed?

# 69 A:

Yeah, he -- Allen was with Mr. O.J. simpson. And then when he say that he wanted the knife, he required the knife sharpened. So I give the knife to Allen, so he can sharpen it.

# 70 Q:

Mr. Camacho, I'd like to back up, in terms of time, just for a little bit here. When the defendant went over to the location where Mr. wattenberg was, did you see him gesture, or point to a particular type of knife?

# 71 A:

Yeah, he just -- I guess something attract him about the knife. It's a nice looking knife. And he just -- he liked it.

# 72 Q:

Well, at the time, sir, and --

# 73 MR. HODGMAN:

Your Honor, I ask that that be stricken, because that really calls for a conclusion on the part of the witness.

# 74 MR. SHAPIRO:

He asked the question, your Honor.

# 75 THE COURT:

Can I have the answer read back, please. (WHEREUPON, THE PRECEDING ANSWER WAS READ BY THE REPORTER)

# 76 THE COURT:

the objection is sustained, the answer is stricken.

# 77 MR. HODGMAN:

Thank you. After the "yes" portion, your Honor?

# 78 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 79 MR. HODGMAN:

Thank you very much, your Honor.

# 80 Q:

Now, Mr. Camacho, at the time that the defendant appeared in your store, were there different sizes of the same type of knife, as depicted in People's 1?

# 81 A:

Yes, there are two different sizes.

# 82 Q:

And was the other size knife larger or smaller than the one that was sold to the defendant?

# 83 A:

it's a tiny bit smaller, probably an inch or two inches smaller from the large size.

# 84 Q:

Is the larger knife, at least at the time, was it priced differently than the larger knife?

# 85 A:

Yes, it is.

# 86 Q:

Do you recall the price of the larger knife? That is, the knife that was sold to the defendant that day of the filming?

# 87 A:

The price on that knife I sold was 74.98, plus tax.

# 88 Q:

And, Mr. Camacho, at this time, do you recall how the smaller knife was priced?

# 89 A:

I believe the smaller one is priced $59 or $64, something like that.

# 90 Q:

Now, during the course -- well, I'll withdraw that. After Mr. wattenberg went to the back area of the store, you assisted the defendant in the sale of this larger knife; is that correct?

# 91 A:

Yes.

# 92 Q:

Did the defendant pay for the knife? or how did the defendant pay for the knife?

# 93 A:

He pay me with a hundred-dollar bill.

# 94 Q:

A cash transaction?

# 95 A:

In cash, yes.

# 96 Q:

And did you make change for the defendant?

# 97 A:

Yes, I gave him change.

# 98 Q:

As of today, do you have a general idea of the total cost of the knife? That is price plus tax?

# 99 A:

The total price was $81.17.

KEY QUOTE

# 100 Q:

Before you actually received the cash money from the defendant, did the defendant ask you to do anything with regard to the knife?

# 101 A:

He wanted it sharpened.

KEY QUOTE

# 102 Q:

After the defendant asked you to have the knife sharpened, what did you do?

# 103 A:

So I give it to Allen. So he went back to the shop, and he sharpened it.

# 104 Q:

What did you do after you took the knife to allen, for purposes of sharpening the knife? Did you go back to the defendant? Did you remain with Allen? What did you do, sir?

# 105 A:

I finish, you know, ring up the sale. I give the change to Mr. O.J., and then I went back to the shop, to get the knife, and give it back to him.

# 106 Q:

At the time you sold the knife to the defendant, did you give him a receipt, or a copy of the sales tape, or anything like that?

# 107 A:

Yeah, I give him the receipt.

# 108 Q:

Was there a receipt that was made from the store that you recall, or was it just a sales --

# 109 A:

Just regular register sales.

# 110 Q:

sir, it's your testimony, then, that after the hundred-dollar bill was presented by the defendant, after you made change, that you went back to where Mr. wattenberg was, and obtained the knife; is that correct?

# 111 A:

Yes, sir.

# 112 Q:

To your knowledge, had the knife been sharpened?

# 113 A:

It was sharpened.

# 114 Q:

What did you do then with the knife, after you retrieved it from the area where Mr. wattenberg was?

# 115 A:

I picked it up from the desk, and then I just put it in a plastic bag, and I handed it to Mr. O.J.

# 116 Q:

And after that, did the defendant leave the store?

# 117 A:

Yes, sir. He got the knife, and he just start walking out.

# 118 Q:

Now, Mr. Camacho, about two weeks ago, were you interviewed by detectives from the Los Angeles Police Department?

# 119 A:

Yes, sir, I was.

# 120 Q:

And where were you when you were interviewed by those detectives?

# 121 A:

I was at the store.

# 122 Q:

At the time you were interviewed, was anyone else from the store interviewed by those same detectives?

# 123 A:

Yes. Allen wattenberg was there, my boss.

# 124 Q:

What about the other co-owner, Richard wattenberg? Was he there, to your recollection?

# 125 A:

Yeah, he was there, too.

# 126 Q:

And did the detectives ask you some questions during the course of this interview?

# 127 A:

Yes, they did.

# 128 Q:

And during the course of this interview, were you asked to show a particular type of knife to the detectives?

# 129 A:

Yes. They asked me to show them a similar knife that I had sold to Mr. O.J. simpson.

# 130 Q:

Was that done?

# 131 A:

Yes, I did. I showed them the same knife that I had sold.

# 132 Q:

And, sir, with regard to the type of knife, was this the larger or the smaller of the two knives?

# 133 A:

The larger size.

# 134 Q:

Was the knife that you showed to the detectives also priced at 74.98?

# 135 A:

Yes, sir, the same price.

# 136 Q:

Did the detectives purchase that knife?

# 137 A:

Yes, they did.

# 138 Q:

With regard to the purchase price of the knife that you sold to the detectives, are you certain that it was 74.98?

# 139 A:

I charged them the same price, because they're all marked the same.

# 140 Q:

Now, Mr. Camacho, on Tuesday of last week, did you testify before the Los Angeles grand jury?

# 141 A:

Yes, sir, I did.

# 142 Q:

And, Mr. Camacho, after you testified before the grand jury, what happened to you?

# 143 A:

As soon as I got to the store, I start getting a lot of different calls and, you know, the media went to the store, asking all kinds of different questions.

# 144 Q:

And this occurred after you testified before the grand jury; is that correct?

# 145 A:

Yes, sir.

# 146 Q:

When you say you started getting calls from the media, can you give us a little bit better idea what happened, sir?

# 147 A:

They start asking me if I was in court, you know, if I had testified. But, you know, I denied it, because I was told to say so, it's not because I wanted to lie, I was told not to say nothing.

# 148 Q:

Do you recall what media sources tried to contact you, with regard to what you knew about this matter?

# 149 A:

Yeah, a lot of -- well, channel 5, channel 4, hard copy, and so many others. You know, I'm kind of nervous, I cannot recall those right now.

# 150 Q:

Did people come to the store?

# 151 A:

Yes, they did. A lot of media people came to the store.

# 152 Q:

Did any of the individuals from the media who came to the store, give you business cards?

# 153 A:

Yes. Almost everyone, but I just throw them away.

# 154 Q:

Did you talk to any of these people from the media?

# 155 A:

Yes, I did.

# 156 Q:

And to whom did you speak?

# 157 A:

The names I cannot recall. But I can tell you that I talked to the guy for channel 4. There's another guy that came from New York, and I talked to the guys from hard copy.

# 158 Q:

Sir, when you say you talked to these people, were you responding to questions they were trying to ask you?

# 159 A:

Well, you know, they're -- they're tricky people, you know, they force you to talk, you know. You don't want to talk, but they force you to.

# 160 Q:

Did you feel that you were under some pressure, Mr. Camacho?

# 161 A:

what did you say?

# 162 Q:

Did you feel that you were under some pressure?

# 163 A:

Yes, sir, I was in a lot of -- I still am, yes.

# 164 Q:

The one thing I want to clarify, Mr. Camacho, is that when you said you talked to these people, you were talking to them and telling them, "no, I don't want to talk to you"; is that correct?

# 165 A:

Yes, sir, I did that.

# 166 Q:

But at some point, Mr. Camacho, you did agree to talk with at least -- how shall I characterize this -- with one individual who wanted you to speak about what you knew about the knife transaction; is that correct?

# 167 A:

Yes.

# 168 Q:

And from what entity or organization was that individual?

# 169 A:

Can I say that? I don't know.

# 170 Q:

Yes, you may.

# 171 A:

Yes, I talked to the Enquirer people.

# 172 Q:

By "enquirer," are you referring to the national Enquirer?

# 173 A:

Or the national Enquirer, yes.

# 174 Q:

Do you recall the name of the person whom you talked to from the national Enquirer?

# 175 A:

Yes. I talked to -- his name is Mr. Allen, I can't recall the last name.

# 176 Q:

Was this over the telephone, or did this Mr. Allen come to your store?

# 177 A:

First, he was so persistent, I didn't want to answer the phone. But he was so persistent, so I talked to him. Then he came to the store, and we talked there.

# 178 Q:

Did this fellow you've referred to as Mr. Allen, offer you money?

# 179 A:

Yes, he did.

# 180 Q:

Did he tell you anything else?

# 181 A:

Well, he offered me -- he offer $12,000 -- 500 -- 12,000 and $500, to tell him the -- what had happened, you know, in the store. So, I just -- I tell him the truth. I told him -- because it was a lot of pressure to me, to be lying to a lot of other people, and that's not -- that's not me. I don't like to lie.

# 182 Q:

Sir, when you're saying you were lying to other people, you were lying to all these people who were trying to get you to talk about the sales transaction with the defendant; is that correct?

# 183 A:

Yes.

# 184 Q:

And finally, you succumbed to this pressure; is that correct?

# 185 A:

Yes. I want to take that pressure off myself, you know, to tell the truth, you know, that I was lying, because I was was forced to lie. And I told them the truth, you know, what happened, that I have sold the knife to Mr. O.J. simpson.

# 186 Q:

Was Allen wattenberg at the store at the time this representative from the national Enquirer came?

# 187 A:

No, sir, he was not. He was not in town, no.

# 188 Q:

He was not in town; is that correct?

# 189 A:

No.

# 190 Q:

Was allen's brother, Richard, working at the store on the day that the representative from the national Enquirer showed up?

# 191 A:

Yes, he was.

# 192 Q:

Did he speak with this fellow from the national Enquirer, as well?

# 193 A:

Yes, he did.

# 194 Q:

During the course of that conversation, were you told something about someone else having spoken to the national Enquirer?

# 195 A:

Yes.

# 196 Q:

What do you recall about that?

# 197 A:

Well, there were, I guess, actors, too, or actress, I don't know how you say that, it was -- it was another guy that had contact the Enquirer, telling them about the -- about Mr. O.J. simpson, that he had purchased the knife, because they saw him there. And --

# 198 Q:

Was it after this representative from the national Enquirer told you that, that you decided --

# 199 A:

Yes.

# 200 Q:

-- You would talk to the Enquirer as well?

# 201 A:

Yes.

# 202 Q:

Would you tell us why, Mr. Camacho?

# 203 A:

Well, I would say this other guy was going to get, I guess, the money, with a lie. Because he was lying, he never -- I mean, he saw that Mr. O.J. was there in the store, but he never exactly saw what he bought. And that's when I decide to say -- if this guy's going to get some money, when he doesn't -- he's not sure what really happened, you know. So that's when I say, "well, I'm taking all this pressure, and for nothing. So I'm going to get something out of it," you know. It's not much, but I say something.

# 204 Q:

So, you wanted to get something for yourself; is that correct?

# 205 A:

Sure.

# 206 Q:

Now, did you sign a contract with the national Enquirer?

# 207 A:

Yes, I did.

# 208 Q:

Did Mr. Richard wattenberg, to your knowledge?

# 209 A:

Yes.

# 210 Q:

With regard to your contact with the national Enquirer, did anybody from the national Enquirer come to Ross cutlery and take some pictures there?

# 211 A:

Yes, sir, they did.

# 212 Q:

Tell us about that Mr. Camacho.

# 213 A:

Well, first I talked to Mr. Allen, and then I guess he contact the photographer, to come down to the store to start taking pictures.

# 214 Q:

Were pictures taken of you?

# 215 A:

Yes.

# 216 Q:

Were pictures taken of Mr. Richard wattenberg?

# 217 A:

Yes.

# 218 Q:

Were pictures taken of the store?

# 219 A:

Yes.

# 220 Q:

And were pictures taken of the knife, such as the one we have displayed here in People's 1?

# 221 A:

Yes, sir.

# 222 Q:

Have you been paid by the national Enquirer yet, Mr. Camacho?

# 223 A:

No, not yet.

# 224 Q:

Do you expect to be paid?

# 225 A:

They told me they would send a check this coming Monday, this coming Monday.

# 226 Q:

And what's supposed to happen this coming Monday, that would cause you to get a check?

# 227 A:

Can you repeat that again?

# 228 Q:

Sure. Let me rephrase it a different way. Mr. Camacho, do you expect the next issue of the national enquirer to come out this coming Monday?

# 229 A:

Yes.

# 230 Q:

Is it after that that you expect to get paid?

# 231 A:

Yes, sir.

# 232 Q:

So, in a sense, Mr. Camacho, by virtue of your testimony today, we have scooped the national enquirer; is that correct? You don't need to answer that, Mr. Camacho.

# 233 MR. HODGMAN:

I have no further questions for Mr. Camacho.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Jose Camacho

That's the -- that's the item I sold him.

Camacho directly connected Simpson to the type of knife depicted in People's 1, before clarifying that the photograph showed an item like the one sold.

Jose Camacho

He wanted it sharpened.

The testimony established that Simpson allegedly requested sharpening before taking possession of the knife.

Jose Camacho

The total price was $81.17.

This supplied a precise detail of the alleged cash transaction, including tax.

Jose Camacho

he offer $12,000 -- 500 -- 12,000 and $500, to tell him the -- what had happened, you know, in the store.

Camacho admitted that the National Enquirer offered him $12,500 for his account, creating an obvious credibility and financial-bias issue.

Jose Camacho

So I'm going to get something out of it, you know.

Camacho candidly acknowledged that personal financial gain influenced his decision to sell his story.

Evidence (8)

People's 1

Four photographs depicting the type of 15-inch German-made collectible knife sold to Simpson.

displayed and discussed

Informal

The 15-inch German-made collectible knife that Camacho said Simpson bought for $74.98 plus tax and had sharpened before taking it from the store.

discussed

Informal

A smaller collectible Case knife that Simpson initially considered but did not purchase.

discussed

Informal

A same-model, larger knife that Camacho showed LAPD detectives and sold to them for the same listed price as Simpson's knife.

shown to and purchased by detectives

Informal

The cash-register receipt Camacho said he gave Simpson for the knife purchase.

discussed

Informal

The plastic bag in which Camacho placed the sharpened knife before handing it to Simpson.

discussed

+ 2 more

Notable Exchanges (3)

William Hodgman•Jose Camacho

Camacho identified Simpson in court and described selling him a 15-inch collectible knife for cash, having it sharpened, placing it in a plastic bag, and handing it to him.

revealing

William Hodgman•Robert Shapiro•Kathleen Kennedy-Powell

Hodgman asked to strike his own witness's speculation about why Simpson liked the knife; Shapiro noted that Hodgman had asked the question, and the judge sustained the objection and struck everything after the witness's initial "yes."

procedural

William Hodgman•Jose Camacho

Hodgman openly developed Camacho's media contacts, prior denials, signed tabloid contract, promised $12,500 payment, and expectation of payment after publication.

strategic

Light Moments (1)

William Hodgman

Hodgman joked that Camacho's public testimony had "scooped the national enquirer," then told him he did not need to answer.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Jose Camacho

prior false statements disclosed on direct examination

The prosecutor disclosed that Camacho had denied his grand-jury testimony and knife-sale knowledge to reporters, although Camacho said he did so because he had been instructed not to speak.

⚔ Jose Camacho

financial bias disclosed on direct examination

The prosecutor elicited that Camacho signed a contract with the National Enquirer and expected $12,500 after publication, exposing a financial incentive tied to his account.

Witness Demeanor

Camacho expressly said, "I'm kind of nervous," when trying to recall the media outlets that contacted him.

He said he was under "a lot of" pressure from persistent reporters and added, "I still am."

Objections

1 objections (1 sustained, 0 overruled)

Proceeding 9064 • 233 lines • Prosecution witness

Preliminary Trial

Department 103