Thank you very much, your Honor. At this time the people call Mr. Allen WATTENBERG.

face the clerk, sir, and raise your right hand. THE COURT CLERK: You do solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in the cause now pending before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

Yes, I do. allen wattenberg, CALLED AS A WITNESS ON BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: THE COURT CLERK: Please be seated. Please state and spell your name for the record.

My name is Allen wattenberg. A-L-L-E-N, last name WATTENBERG, W-A-T-T-E-N-B-E-R-G.

You may inquire.

Thank you very much, your Honor. / / /

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. HODGMAN:

Mr. wattenberg, you are the co-owner of a business located here in the City of Los Angeles, are you not?

That's correct.

And what is the name of your business, sir?

The name of our business is Ross cutlery.

What type of business is Ross cutlery?

ross cutlery is a retail cutlery store, and sharpening service.

And, Mr. wattenberg, would you tell us where your business is located, please?

Our business is located at third and Broadway, at 310 south Broadway, in the old bradbury building.

Sir, how long has your business been located in the old bradbury building?

My brother and I have had the business since 1965. And prior to that, another gentleman owned the business for about 40 years. His name was Mr. Ross.

And during that period of time, has Ross cutlery been located at one location or another, within the old bradbury building?

it's been located in three different locations within the building.

Mr. wattenberg, you are co-owner of ross cutlery; is that correct?

That is correct.

With whom do you co-own Ross cutlery?

I co-own Ross cutlery with my brother, Richard wattenberg.

Sir, at this time, how many employees do you have?

We have, counting my brother and myself, there's seven of us.

And, sir, as of this time, is one of the employees who works for you named Jose Camacho?

Yes, there is.

About how long has Mr. Camacho worked for you, Mr. wattenberg?

Mr. Camacho has worked for me approximately 20 years.

And what is his job title?

He's in sales.

Mr. wattenberg, I would like to direct your attention to the date of Tuesday, May the 3rd, 1994. Were you working at your business on that day?

Yes, I was.

And was Mr. Camacho, the employee to whom you have just referred, was he working that day, as well?

Yes, he was.

Mr. wattenberg, do you recall approximately what time you arrived at Ross cutlery that day?

That day I more than likely came in somewhere between 7:00 and 7:30.

And, sir, are you the one who opens the business?

Generally I am, yes.

And, Mr. wattenberg, on that date, of May 3, 1994, were you working during the afternoon hours?

Yes, I was.

And was Mr. Camacho working that afternoon, as well?

Yes, sir, he was.

On that particular afternoon, Mr. wattenberg, did you observe any unusual activity occurring outside of your business that afternoon?

Yes, sir, I did.

Would you please tell us what you observed.

This particular day, there was a film company there, doing a pilot for a T.V. series, I believe.

And what types of things did you see that evidenced such filming, or such a project underway?

There was a rather large film crew there, with cameras, lights, and all of the different items that go along with that.

Specifically in relation to your store front, where was this filming occurring?

Directly in front of our store.

Did you, during the course of that afternoon, happen to observe some of the filming as it was occurring?

Yes, I did.

During the course of your observations of that filming, did you recognize anyone on the set?

Yes, sir, I did.

Who was that, that you observed, sir?

Mr. O.J. simpson.

Do you see Mr. O.J. simpson present in court today?

Yes, sir, I do.

Would you point him out for us, please?

The gentleman over there, (POINTING).

We'll stipulate he has identified Mr. simpson.

Thank you.

Thank you, Counsel.

Mr. wattenberg, during the course of that afternoon, did the defendant ever come into your store, Ross cutlery?

Yes, he did.

And how many times do you recall him coming into your store that afternoon?

I believe I saw him there once, possibly twice, myself.

Now, with regard to the first time, to your best recollection, did you pay close attention to the defendant as he came into the store?

Not really. We just let him browse around. We didn't bother him -- or I should say, I didn't bother him.

Was your attention drawn to other activities at the time?

At the other time, I was busy doing several different things in the store that I normally do.

I see. Now, were you present in the store that afternoon, when Mr. simpson, the defendant, came in a second time?

Yes, I was.

And would you tell us what occurred when you observed the defendant come in the store the second time?

I believe that he came in and -- looking into our store, from the outside, he was looking at items on the left-hand side of our store, which would be the north side of our store. And I think Mr. Jose Camacho showed him several different items that he had an interest in. And he spent some time with him, talking with him and stuff.

Mr. wattenberg, where were you when you observed the defendant to come into the store The second time?

To my best of knowledge, I was at the front portion of the store, on the other side.

Would this be on the south side of the building -- or your store, rather?

On the south side of the building, yes, sir.

At any point in time, during the second time the defendant came into your store, did he ever come over to your location on the south side of the store?

Yes, sir, he did.

And tell us what happened when the defendant came over, either to or near your position, sir?

I believe, if memory serves me right, I spoke with him briefly. And he pointed out a couple of items on the back shelf of the display where I was standing, and I showed him an item.

And, Mr. wattenberg, when you refer to "items," what do you mean, sir?

What type of knives did the defendant express an interest in?

The item that I recall was a large lock blade knife.

And could you describe that particular type of knife a little further for us, sir?

Sure. This particular knife is about 15 inches in length when it's opened. It has a locking device on it, that holds the blade in a fixed position. When you release the lock and fold the blade closed, I believe it's about -- maybe eight, eight and a half inches in length. It has a stag handle on it, with a shinny stainless steel blade. The blade has some engraving on it, and basically, the ends of it is brass. And there's a little guard toward the front portion of it, that's also brass.

Mr. wattenberg, when you refer to a "stag handle," would you explain what you mean, sir?

A stag handle is the antlers off of a deer, and they utilize this quite a bit on some of the nicer, what they call collectable knives, because it makes an attractive handle.

At the time that the defendant was expressing interest in this particular knife, were you standing behind a counter of some sort?

Yes, sir. I was standing behind the display counter.

Is that a glass top display counter?

Yes, it is.

Where was this particular knife in which the defendant had expressed interested?

Directly behind me.

Was it on a wall?

it's on a wall, yes, sir.

Did you remove that knife from the wall in order to show it to the defendant?

Yes, I did.

Would you please describe what happened, sir?

About the time when I took the knife off the wall to show it to the defendant, Mr. Camacho, which had been waiting on him previously, entered the picture. And I had some things that I needed to do in the back, so Mr. Camacho continued the sale.

Now, with regard to the manner in which this particular knife was displayed, was it displayed with the blade open, or closed within the handle?

To my best knowledge, it was open.

And when you displayed the knife that you took from the wall, and displayed it for the defendant, was the blade open or within the handle?

As far as I can recall it was, yes, sir.

Now, Mr. wattenburg, at the time and afternoon of this particular date, did you have more than one size of this particular type of knife within your store?

At the specific time, I think we had two knives similar to this, on display. One short one and one long one.

How much shorter was the shorter one than the longer one you described?

Possibly a couple of inches. I don't know the exact dimension of it.

Was there a price difference between the two?

There's a slight price difference, yes. Maybe 10 or $15 difference in the price.

Do you recall the price of the larger knife which you showed to the defendant?

I believe the larger knife was $74.98.

Now, do you recall showing the smaller version of this larger knife to the defendant that afternoon?

I really don't recall whether I did or not.

Is it possible that you did?

It is possible that I did. I was very busy that day, and might not remember it.

And you recall, sir, however, showing the larger knife to the defendant; is that correct?

That is correct.

Are you certain of that?

Yes, I am.

How certain are you of that?

Very sure.

Now, did you continue to have a -- or did you have any sort of conversation with the defendant, as you were showing him this knife?

I really can't recall whether I did or not.

Did the defendant express an interest in purchasing this particular knife?

At the present time, when I was there, showing it to him, he just wanted to see the knife, which I, you know, took off the back display. And I don't know if I handed it to him, or put it on the counter, but I did, you know, show it to him.

at some Point in time, Mr. wattenburg, did Mr. Camacho come over to assist you with the defendant?

Yes, he did.

Tell us what happened then, sir?

After that, I believe that I excused myself, I had some things that I needed to do in the back, some paperwork. and I left, and returned to the back of the store, where we have like a little office area.

Shortly thereafter, did you see Mr. Camacho again?

Yes. A little bit after that, Mr. Camacho came to the back where I was, and he handed me the knife, and told me that the customer wished to have it sharpened. I took it in the back, where we do our sharpening, and I sharpened the knife. And then I returned to the front with it, and I put it on the counter.

Sir, when you're referring to the customer, are you referring to the defendant?

Yes, sir, I am.

And with regard to the knife that was brought back to you, was this the same knife that you had brought off the display, and presented to the defendant, or showed to the defendant?

Yes, sir, it was.

This was the larger 15-inch overall dimensioned knife; is that correct?

Yes, sir, that's correct.

Now, Mr. wattenberg, is there a difference between a single-edge knife and a double-edge knife?

Yes, sir, there is.

Would you explain the difference for us, please?

Sure. A single-edge knife is sharpened on one side only, and a double-edge knife is sharpened on both sides.

And what type of knife was this knife that you sharpened for the defendant that afternoon?

This knife was a single-edge knife, sharp on one side only.

With regard to the other side of a single-edge knife, is the edge as with regard to this particular knife, blunt, dull, sharpened? How would you characterize it?

On this particular knife, the reverse side is completely flat, or blunt.

Now, with regard to the knife that you sharpened for Mr. Camacho, you were certain that this was the larger of the stiletto type knives that you've described; is that correct?

Yes, sir, that's correct.

Now, what did you do, Mr. wattenberg, after you sharpened the knife for Mr. Camacho?

After I sharpened the knife for Mr. Camacho, I put it on the counter and continued, you know, doing what I was doing in the back. I believe I was doing some paperwork, or possibly doing some ordering. I don't remember exactly, you know, it's a length of time ago. I couldn't tell you exactly what I was doing, but some type of office work.

Did you ever see the defendant leave your store that afternoon?

No, I don't believe that I did. I was in the back working, and I don't believe that I saw him leave the store.

You had some awareness developed at some point that he had, in fact, left the store; is that --

Yes, sir.

Mr. wattenberg, I would now like to direct your attention to Tuesday, June the 14th, 1994. Were you working at Ross cutlery on that particular day?

I believe that I was. I'm not familiarized with that particular day. It was on a Tuesday, You said?

That's correct.

On a Tuesday, I definitely would have been there.

Do you recall a date when some detectives from the Los Angeles Police Department arrived at your store?

Yes, sir, I do.

And you were present when they arrived?

Yes, I was.

Were any other employees present besides yourself?

There were several other employees there.

Amongst them were your brother, Richard?

Yes, my brother, Richard, was there.

I suppose it would be unfair to characterize your brother, richard, as an employee. He is, in fact, a co-owner; is that correct?

Co-owner, correct.

Amongst the employees present, was Mr. Camacho there?

Yes, sir, he was.

Did you speak with the detectives from the Los Angeles Police Department?

Yes, sir, I did speak with them.

Did your brother, Richard, speak with the detectives?

Yes, sir, he did.

Did Mr. Camacho speak with the detectives?

Yes, sir.

During the course of your conversation with the detectives from the Los Angeles Police Department, did you show them the knife?

Yes, sir, we did.

Were you asked by those detectives to show them a particular type of knife?

Yes, sir, we were.

And tell us what you did, sir?

I took them to the front area of my store, where these particular knives were sold, and proceeded to show them the knife.

By "the knife," what knife are you referring to, Mr. wattenberg?

They had an interest in the knife that we had previously sold to Mr. O.J. simpson.

And did you show them an identical knife?

Yes, sir, I did.

And was that knife identical, as far as you can determine, to the knife that was sold to the defendant?

it was identical in size and type. Some of these knives will vary a little bit, because the stag is a natural material. So, it could be a little darker, a little lighter. But the overall size and function of the knife is the same.

Was the knife that you showed to the Los Angeles Police Department detectives identical, in terms of price?

Yes, sir, it was.

Was it also priced at 74.98?

Yes, sir, that's correct.

Was that knife sold to the detectives from the Los Angeles Police Department?

Yes, sir, it was.

Your Honor, at this time I would like to mark an exhibit for identification. Would the court prefer I mark it next in order as 3, or may I mark it as People's 1, for purposes of the prelim, per se?

All right. We'll call it People's 1, for purposes of the preliminary hearing.

Thank you, your Honor. May I approach the witness?

Yes.

Your Honor, I have here a board upon which is contained four photographs, depicting various aspects of a knife, which I would characterize as being a knife as described by Mr. wattenberg in his testimony this afternoon. Each of the four photographs is designated by a letter A, B, C and D. May this exhibit be marked as People's 1 for identification?

Yes.

Thank you very much, your Honor.

Mr. wattenberg, I'm going to direct your attention to the exhibit which has now been marked as People's 1 for identification. Do you see that exhibit, sir?

Yes, sir, I do.

And specifically, do you see the photograph which has been designated as photograph A?

Yes, sir.

And would you describe for us, sir, what is depicted in photograph A?

In photograph A, there's a picture of the knife in its open position. This is the knife that we currently sell in our store.

When you refer to "the knife," again, is this -- do these photos depict, in a true and accurate fashion, the knife that was sold by your store to the detectives from the Los Angeles Police Department, on or about June the -- excuse me -- yes, June 14th?

Yes, sir. This one appears to be an exact -- the exact knife.

So, with regard to photograph A, sir, does that photograph depict some of the characteristics of the knife purchased by the defendant on May the 3rd, and that you have described in Your testimony?

Yes, sir, that's correct.

Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the photograph designated as photograph B. Do you see that photograph, sir?

Yes, sir.

With regard to that photograph, does that photograph depict the overall dimensions of the knife that was sold to the detectives from the Los Angeles Police Department, And which was identical to the one sold to the defendant?

Would it be possible for me to take a closer look at it?

With the court's permission.

Of course. You can step down and take a look.

Yes, sir. That appears to be the knife. It's equal length to the one that Mr. simpson purchased, and also the detectives from the police department purchased.

BY MR. HODGMAN:

And in terms of dimensions, Mr. wattenberg, what is the overall length on that knife?

The overall length is approximately 15 inches.

Sir, when we refer to "overall knife," we're referring to the knife in A locked open position, are we not?

Yes, that's correct.

Directing your attention, sir, to photograph C, the photograph designated with a C. Do you see that, sir?

Yes, sir, I do.

Mr. Wattenberg, what does that photograph depict?

That photograph there is showing the length of the blade.

What is the length of the blade as depicted in that photograph?

the length of the blade in the photo is approximately six inches.

Mr. wattenberg, earlier in your testimony this afternoon, you described some inscription on the blade that was sold to the defendant; is that correct?

That is correct.

And do you see either similar or identical inscriptions upon the blade depicted in photograph C?

The engraving on the blade is identical.

And what does the engraving -- what is engraved on that blade?

Now, Mr. wattenberg, I'd like to direct your attention to the photograph designated with a d. Do you see that, sir?

yes, I do.

What does that photograph depict?

That photograph shows the knife in a closed position.

And can you give us the approximate dimensions of the knife in a closed position?

In a closed position, it's approximately, I believe, eight inches.

Now, Mr. wattenberg, in your testimony today you've described the knife that was sold to the defendant as a locking blade knife; is that correct?

That is correct.

Would you tell us what that means, sir?

Okay. A locking blade knife is a knife that has a mechanism in it, that when the blade is swung to an open position, it locks it into that open position, so it won't easily close when it's being used.

And by what process, sir, does one close such a knife if one wanted to?

This particular knife, there's a lever at the rear portion of the knife that you push down, and then fold the blade closed.

And except for depressing that lever, would the knife remain locked in an open blade position, if positioned that way?

In most general use it would, yes, sir.

Now, Mr. wattenberg, you are aware, are you not, that your employee, Mr. Jose Camacho, testified before the Los Angeles County grand jury last week, are you not?

Yes, sir, I am.

And after Mr. Camacho testified, did you become aware that he had been approached by various individuals from the media, who were trying to get Mr. Camacho to talk to the media?

Okay. Let me clarify this, because I was on a vacation, and I was gone the week that this all transpired. I learned of this after returning from vacation, so I have to testify in that regard, that I wasn't there when the news media deluged our store, but I learned of it afterward.

Is it your understanding, sir, that the news media deluged your store only after Mr. Camacho testified before the grand jury?

To my knowledge, that is correct, yes.

Mr. wattenberg, after you returned from your trip, did you become aware that Mr. Camacho, as well as your brother, had signed some sort of agreement with someone?

Yes, sir, I did.

And what was your awareness?

They had signed an agreement with the Enquirer magazine, national Enquirer.

When was it that you became aware of this agreement?

I was made aware of this when I returned on Saturday. Let's see, I don't know the date on Saturday. It was last Saturday, approximately -- maybe 8:00 o'clock when I got home, I called my brother. And my brother told me what had transpired during the week when I was gone.

Mr. wattenberg, did you sign an agreement with the national Enquirer?

No, sir, I did not.

However, sir, do you expect to profit in some manner from your brother and your employee, Mr. Camacho, having signed such an agreement?

Yes, I do.

Would you explain to us, please, how you expect to profit?

What sum of money are we talking about, Mr. wattenberg?

The figure, I believe, is $12,500.

Have you been contacted personally by anyone from the national Enquirer?

Yes, sir, I have.

Would you describe the circumstances of that, please?

A gentleman named Mr. Allen Smith, which is the senior reporter for the west coast, called me, I believe, on Saturday. Can I clarify one thing? Because I just realized that I made a mistake.

Be my guest, sir.

I returned on Friday evening, not on Saturday, from my trip from Germany. On Saturday morning, I got a call from Mr. Allen Smith, that he wanted to purchase one of these knives, to send it into the Enquirer, so they could use it for photo purposes. And I don't remember the exact time Mr. Smith came in the store. We talked briefly. He purchased the knife. I called federal express, I believe, and they sent a courier to pick up the knife about an hour later, which we had ready for them.

Now, Mr. wattenberg, to your knowledge, has your brother, or Mr. Camacho, received any money from the national Enquirer as of today's date?

No, sir, we have not.

Do you have some expectation of when you might receive some money from the national Enquirer?

My brother was instructed by the national Enquirer that after the story has run for a week, that we would be, you know, given the payment.

And, sir, when do you expect the story to run?

The story is due to be released Monday.

Have you described the extent of your contact, your personal contact with the national Enquirer?

Yes, sir, I have.

Sir, to date you have not received any money from the national Enquirer; is that correct?

No, I have not, sir.

Mr. wattenberg, if I may, with regard to the figure of $12,500, that you've indicated in your testimony this afternoon, is that figure, or that sum, to be divided equally amongst the three of you? That is yourself, your brother and Mr. Camacho?

That is correct, sir.

And it is not the fact that you are to receive approximately 12,500, your brother receives 12,500 and Mr. Camacho receives 12,500?

no, it's a total of 12,500, complete, all three of us together.

Thank you, Mr. WATTENBERG. No further questions.