Cross-examination of Thano Peratis

📄 Cross-examination of Thano Peratis — Thursday, July 7, 1994

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C:\DEPT103\PRELIMINARY\1994\JUL\7\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-THANO-PER.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 5 of 6

◀ Direct examination of Thano Peratis Redirect examination of Thano Peratis ▶

Witness: Thano Peratis
Examiner: Robert Shapiro
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, July 7, 1994 • Lines: 106

Shapiro questioned jail nurse Thano Peratis about treating the cut on Simpson's left middle finger and drawing approximately 8 C.C.'s of blood from his right arm. The cross-examination focused on imprecise measurement, limited recordkeeping, the EDTA collection tube, and Peratis's inability to account for Detective Vannatter's later handling of the sample.

# 1

CROSS-EXAMINATION

# 2

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 3 Q:

Do you remember, sir, which arm you drew the blood from?

# 4 A:

The right arm.

# 5 Q:

Did you make any observations of any injuries of Mr. Simpson at the time --

# 6 A:

I'm sorry.

# 7 Q:

Did you observe any injuries on Mr. Simpson at the time you withdrew the blood?

# 8 A:

Not at that time, no.

# 9 Q:

At some time did you?

# 10 A:

After Mr. Simpson -- after I put a bandage on Mr. Simpson's arm, I was asked -- I can't remember if it was by Mr. Simpson or one of the detectives -- if I would dress a wound on his finger.

# 11 Q:

And did you do that?

# 12 A:

Yes, sir.

# 13 Q:

Where was the wound?

# 14 A:

It was on his left -- on his left hand, on his left middle finger.

# 15 Q:

Did you examine the wound?

# 16 A:

Just a cursory examination. I just looked at it and I cleaned it with -- what we routinely do, and then I put a dressing on it.

# 17 Q:

Did you determine the age of the wound?

# 18 A:

Not really. It was a little difficult to determine the age. It looked like, oh, between 12 and 24 hours, but I couldn't -- I really couldn't say.

# 19 Q:

Did you ascertain the cause of the wound?

# 20 A:

No. It -- it just looked like a little, small cut.

# 21 Q:

In the last five years, how many times have you conducted a similar type of examination for somebody from the Robbery Homicide Division?

# 22 MS. CLARK:

Objection; irrelevant.

# 23 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 24

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 25 Q:

How much blood did you withdraw from Mr. Simpson?

# 26 A:

Approximately 8 C.C.'s.

# 27 Q:

When you say, "approximately," you did not measure the amount?

# 28 A:

Well, it could have been 7.9 or it could have been 8.1. I just looked at the syringe and it looked at about 8 C.C.'s. I withdrew the needle from his arm.

KEY QUOTE

# 29 Q:

Nobody asked you to take a precise amount of blood.

# 30 A:

No.

# 31 Q:

And you did not record the amount of blood you took.

# 32 A:

No. It's just routinely that's about the amount I usually draw.

# 33 Q:

And you do this on a routine basis everyday? Do you do this everyday in the jail, take blood?

# 34 A:

Whenever -- not for this sort of thing. It's usually for alcohol, blood alcohol.

# 35 Q:

But you do take blood on a regular basis.

# 36 A:

Yes.

# 37 Q:

And you take the same amount of blood?

# 38 A:

Yes.

# 39 Q:

Where did you get the tube from that you put the blood into?

# 40 A:

We have a drawer in the dispensary that has tubes in it, and I asked Detective Vannatter to go to that drawer, take the tube out with the purple top, and put Mr. Simpson's name on it and the date, and then hand it to me.

# 41 Q:

Are there any lot numbers on the tubes that you used?

# 42 A:

I believe there are.

# 43 Q:

Did you record the lot --

# 44 A:

No, we don't record that.

# 45 Q:

Did you record any information as to an inventory regarding the tube that was used to save his blood?

# 46 A:

No. It's not a routine procedure that we do.

# 47 Q:

Did you put any preservative in the tube?

# 48 A:

The preservative was already in the tube.

KEY QUOTE

# 49 Q:

Did you check that before you put Mr. Simpson's blood in it?

# 50 A:

Well, it's in there and it's understood that it's in there. And this preservative is called E.D.T.A., and I don't know what those initials mean.

# 51 Q:

Did you put those preservatives in there?

# 52 A:

No, it's in there.

# 53 Q:

Did you see someone put it in there?

# 54 A:

No, they come that way.

# 55 Q:

Did you shake the blood after you put it into the tube?

# 56 A:

Yes.

# 57 Q:

For how long did you shake it?

# 58 A:

Oh, about ten seconds.

# 59 Q:

How did you shake it?

# 60 A:

Just over and over like this.

# 61 MS. CLARK:

For the record, the witness is making a gesture with his hand. It was a fist with something in it and turning it palm down and palm up.

# 62 THE COURT:

All right.

# 63

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 64 Q:

Have you ever seen that blood sample again?

# 65 A:

No.

# 66 Q:

Do you know what Detective Vannatter did with that blood sample?

# 67 A:

I don't know. I -- I have an idea what is supposed to be done with it, but I don't know what he did with it.

KEY QUOTE

# 68 Q:

Did you see what he did with it?

# 69 A:

Well, he put it in an envelope.

# 70 Q:

What kind of envelope did he put it in?

# 71 A:

A gray envelope that has an affidavit on it that I sign.

# 72 Q:

A gray envelope?

# 73 A:

Yes.

# 74 Q:

And it had an affidavit?

# 75 A:

Yes.

# 76 Q:

What did the affidavit say?

# 77 A:

Oh, it refers to the fact that we -- I drew the blood on such and such a date and I handed it to detective Vannatter.

# 78 Q:

Did you get a copy of that affidavit?

# 79 A:

No. That affidavit goes with the officer that takes the blood.

# 80 Q:

Did you indicate on that affidavit how much blood you drew?

# 81 A:

No.

# 82 MR. SHAPIRO:

May I just have a moment, your Honor?

# 83 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 84 MR. SHAPIRO:

I have a document here that's "medical record for persons in custody."

# 85 Q:

Is this what you referred to as an affidavit?

# 86 MS. CLARK:

Why don't you show it to the witness.

# 87 THE COURT:

Yes. Show it to the witness to verify that is the document referred to, please.

# 88 MR. SHAPIRO:

Yes.

# 89 THANO PERATIS:

This is called a medical treatment record.

# 90

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 91 Q:

That is not the affidavit?

# 92 A:

No, sir.

# 93 MR. SHAPIRO:

Let's see if we have the affidavit. This is not what he is referring to. Do you have the affidavit?

# 94 Q:

Does the affidavit remain on the envelope? Do you know?

# 95 A:

it is printed on the envelope. It is a gray envelope that all blood goes into. There is an affidavit on it we sign.

# 96 Q:

Do you recall what time you drew this blood?

# 97 A:

Yes, sir. Blood drawn at 2:30. I think I have it on there as 1430.

# 98 Q:

Was there a physician on duty at the time?

# 99 A:

No, sir.

# 100 Q:

Are there any physicians at the jail?

# 101 A:

Yes.

# 102 MR. SHAPIRO:

I have nothing further. Thank you, your Honor.

# 103 THE COURT:

Miss Clark, anything further?

# 104 MS. CLARK:

One question, your Honor.

# 105 THE COURT:

You always have one.

KEY QUOTE

# 106 MS. CLARK:

I know. It might be a prosecutor's last word thing.

Temperature

routine

Key Quotes (5)

Thano Peratis

It looked like, oh, between 12 and 24 hours, but I couldn't -- I really couldn't say.

Peratis offered a tentative estimate for the age of the cut on Simpson's left middle finger while stressing his uncertainty.

Thano Peratis

Well, it could have been 7.9 or it could have been 8.1. I just looked at the syringe and it looked at about 8 C.C.'s.

The blood volume was estimated visually rather than precisely measured or documented.

Thano Peratis

The preservative was already in the tube.

Peratis testified that the collection tube arrived with EDTA already inside, an important detail about preservation of Simpson's reference blood.

Thano Peratis

I don't know. I -- I have an idea what is supposed to be done with it, but I don't know what he did with it.

Peratis could not personally account for Detective Vannatter's handling of the blood sample after the transfer.

Kathleen Kennedy-Powell

You always have one.

The judge ended the proceeding with mild banter after Clark requested a single follow-up question.

Evidence (4)

Informal

Approximately 8 C.C.'s of blood drawn from O.J. Simpson's right arm at about 2:30 p.m.

discussed

Informal

A purple-top collection tube containing EDTA preservative; its lot number and inventory information were not recorded.

discussed and challenged

Informal

A gray blood-evidence envelope bearing a printed affidavit stating when Peratis drew the blood and transferred it to Detective Vannatter.

discussed

Informal

A document titled "medical record for persons in custody," which Peratis identified as a medical treatment record rather than the affidavit on the blood envelope.

displayed and identified

Notable Exchanges (4)

Robert Shapiro•Thano Peratis

Shapiro established that Peratis treated a small cut on Simpson's left middle finger and could only tentatively estimate it as 12 to 24 hours old.

revealing

Robert Shapiro•Thano Peratis

Shapiro pressed Peratis on the estimated blood volume, lack of lot-number and inventory records, and assumptions about the EDTA preservative.

strategic

Robert Shapiro•Thano Peratis

Peratis said he handed the sample to Detective Vannatter but did not know what Vannatter subsequently did with it beyond placing it in a gray affidavit envelope.

revealing

Robert Shapiro•Thano Peratis•Marcia Clark•Kathleen Kennedy-Powell

Shapiro displayed a custody medical record, but Peratis clarified that it was not the affidavit he had described.

procedural

Light Moments (1)

Kathleen Kennedy-Powell and Marcia Clark

When Clark said she had one question, the judge replied, "You always have one." Clark answered, "I know. It might be a prosecutor's last word thing."

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Thano Peratis

challenging documentation and chain-of-custody precision

Shapiro emphasized that Peratis only estimated the blood volume, did not record it, did not record the tube's lot number or inventory information, and did not personally know what Vannatter did with the sample after receiving it.

Witness Demeanor

The witness demonstrated how he mixed the blood by repeatedly turning a closed hand palm down and palm up.

Objections

1 objections (1 sustained, 0 overruled)

Proceeding 9142 • 106 lines • Prosecution witness

Preliminary Trial

Department 103