Cross-examination of Ms. Fischman by Robert Baker

📄 Cross-examination of Ms. Fischman by Robert Baker — Thursday, March 21, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\DEPOSITION\1996\MAR\21\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-MS-FISCHM.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 20 of 31

◀ Direct examination of Ms. Fischman by Daniel Petrocelli Redirect examination of Ms. Fischman by John Kelly ▶

Witness: Ms. Fischman
Examiner: Robert Baker
Called by: Plaintiff • Date: Thursday, March 21, 1996 • Utterances: 275

Baker cross-examines Nicole Brown Simpson's close friend Cora Fischman about the cleanup of the Bundy crime scene on June 14, 1994 — the day after the murders. He methodically establishes that Ron Hardy and Rolf (Maria's husband) were hosing down the walkway, back gate area, and exterior for approximately the entire hour Fischman was present, with no police officers or crime scene tape remaining. Baker also extracts a prior statement from a Michael Viner interview in which Fischman said she 'never saw Nicole with bruises,' and elicits her belief that O.J. Simpson is a good father.

# 1

BY MR. BAKER:

# 2 Q:

On June 14th what time did you arrive at the Bundy condo?

# 3 MR. KRAMER:

This is the Tuesday?

# 4 MR. BAKER:

The Tuesday.

# 5 Q:

June 14th, what time did you arrive at the Bundy condo?

# 6 A:

Later afternoon.

# 7 Q:

Who was there?

# 8 A:

Who was there?

# 9 (Nods head.)

# 10 A:

The Browns I mean, you know the girls, Tanya, Denise and Dominique, and then A.C. and Ron Hardy..

# 11 Q:

And how long had they been there? Do you know?

# 12 A:

When I was there, they were all there already, so I don't know how long.

# 13 Q:

Did anyone tell you what time they arrived on June 14th?

# 14 A:

I don't know what time, no. Nobody told me.

# 15 Q:

How did you get into the condominium on June 14?

# 16 A:

The gate was open because Ron Hardy was cleaning the front yard.

# 17 Q:

The gate was open on Bundy?

# 18 A:

Yeah.

# 19 Q:

And Ron Hardy was kind of cleaning the walkway?

# 20 A:

Right.

# 21 Q:

How was he cleaning it?

# 22 A:

Hosing it.

# 23 Q:

Did you talk to him while he was hosing the walkway?

# 24 A:

No, not really, no.

# 25 Q:

He was just using one of the hoses

# 26 A:

Yeah, right.

# 27 Q:

around the condo? And he was spraying the walkway beside Nicole's condominium. True?

# 28 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 29 Q:

And he was spraying all around the walkway around the condominium. True?

# 30 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection to this question as leading and the prior one as leading. Move to strike the answer.

# 31 MR. BAKER:

Did you get her answer?

# 32 THE REPORTER:

No.

# 33 MS. FISCHMAN:

What? I'm sorry.

# 34

BY MR. BAKER:

# 35 Q:

And he was spraying all around the condominium. True?

# 36 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection

# 37 MS. FISCHMAN:

True.

# 38 MR. PETROCELLI:

leading. You have to give me time to object.

# 39 MR.BAKER:

Did you get her answer, Dave?

# 40 THE REPORTER:

Yes.

# 41

BY MR. BAKER:

# 42 Q:

Who else was outside cleaning around the condominium?

# 43 A:

I don't remember.

# 44 Q:

Did anyone say they had found anything unusual outside the condominium on June 14th?

# 45 A:

No.

# 46 Q:

How much of Nicole's condominium had been packed by the time you arrived there?

# 47 A:

Almost everything already.

# 48 Q:

So it appeared to you that they had been there for quite a long time. True?

# 49 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 50 MS. FISCHMAN:

True.

# 51

BY MR. BAKER:

# 52 Q:

And what portions of the condominium did you pack?

# 53 A:

Upstairs.

# 54 Q:

Who were you packing that with?

# 55 A:

I was upstairs, and then A.C. walked upstairs, too.

# 56 Q:

And had the upstairs been pretty much packed up by the time you got there?

# 57 A:

Yes.

# 58 Q:

Do you recall what you packed of Nicole's belongings?

# 59 A:

Her closet and, you know, her lingerie and everything, you know, whatever was in that bathroom closet.

# 60 Q:

What did you pack of hers other than clothing?

# 61 A:

That was pretty much...

# 62 Q:

And what did you put it in?

# 63 A:

Trash bag.

# 64 Q:

Who did you give those trash bags to?

# 65 A:

To A.C. Gave everything to A.C.

# 66 Q:

And were the trash bags all kind of grouped together downstairs?

# 67 A:

Yes.

# 68 Q:

And Juditha was there. Correct?

# 69 A:

I don't remember, no. I don't know.

# 70 Q:

Do you remember Lou being there?

# 71 A:

I think Lou was there.

# 72 Q:

And Dominique was there?

# 73 A:

Right.

# 74 Q:

And Denise was there?

# 75 A:

Yes.

# 76 Q:

And who else was there?

# 77 A:

Ron Hardy.

# 78 Q:

Do you know why Ron Hardy was washing the walkway?

# 79 A:

Why?

# 80 (Nods head.)

# 81 A:

I don't know. I guess cleaning up, so I don't know.

# 82 Q:

Was the area around the walkway all wet when you were there on June 14th?

# 83 A:

Yes. It was pretty much clean already.

# 84 Q:

They had cleaned it up?

# 85 A:

Yes.

# 86 Q:

And was the water around the walkway clean up and down the walkway

# 87 A:

Yes.

# 88 Q:

to the back gate?

# 89 A:

Uh-huh.

# 90 Q:

Is that a yes?

# 91 A:

Yes.

# 92 Q:

So the back gate was wet. True?

# 93 A:

Yes.

# 94 Q:

Now, you said earlier that you saw some paw prints when you arrived at Nicole's condominium

# 95 A:

Yes.

# 96 Q:

on June 13. True?

# 97 A:

True.

# 98 Q:

Where did you see those paw prints?

# 99 A:

Driveway, all the way to the sidewalk around all over.

# 100 Q:

And the paw prints came down the driveway.

# 101 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 102 MS. FISCHMAN:

Not driveway. Where the gate is.

# 103

BY MR. BAKER:

# 104 Q:

Okay.

# 105 A:

Okay? To the front you know, the sidewalk.

# 106 Q:

And the paw prints went in which direction?

# 107 A:

Going going south.

# 108 Q:

Towards Wilshire?

# 109 A:

Towards Wilshire.

# 110 Q:

Was anybody else cleaning up the outside of the condominium that you saw?

# 111 A:

Oh, you know who was there, too? Ralph.

# 112 Q:

Ralph who?

# 113 A:

Ralph, you know, Maria's husband.

# 114 Q:

Oh, Rolf. Rolf.

# 115 A:

Rolf. Rolf. Yeah.

# 116 Q:

And what was he doing?

# 117 A:

He was outside.

# 118 Q:

He was outside cleaning up.

# 119 A:

Yes, with Ron.

# 120 Q:

How was he cleaning up the outside walkway?

# 121 A:

He was there, you know. He was cleaning up. They were both outside.

# 122 Q:

Was he washing the area down?

# 123 A:

Yes. Pretty much they were.

# 124 Q:

Was there any police tape around the walkway on June 14th?

# 125 A:

At that time, no more.

# 126 Q:

Were there any police officers around?

# 127 A:

No more.

# 128 Q:

Did you talk to Rolf on June 14th?

# 129 A:

No.

# 130 Q:

How long did you spend at her condominium on June 14th?

# 131 A:

Oh, I would say an hour.

# 132 Q:

But by the time you had gotten there, the apartment was pretty much all cleaned up. True?

# 133 A:

Yes.

# 134 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading. Move to strike the answer.

# 135

BY MR. BAKER:

# 136 Q:

Did you take anything with you?

# 137 A:

No.

# 138 Q:

Did Alvia or how do you pronounce

# 139 A:

Alvia.

# 140 Q:

Alvia take anything with her?

# 141 A:

She took her belongings.

# 142 Q:

Did you see her collect her belongings?

# 143 A:

No.

# 144 Q:

And what were her belongings in?

# 145 A:

It was downstairs in what do you mean? Like in

# 146 Q:

Did she put them in a trash bag?

# 147 A:

I don't remember.

# 148 Q:

Did anybody look through the belongings that she took on that day that you saw?

# 149 A:

No.

# 150 Q:

Have you ever met with Mr. Petrocelli outside of my presence regarding this litigation?

# 151 A:

No.

# 152 Q:

Have you ever read anything in the past days past two days regarding this litigation?

# 153 A:

No.

# 154 Q:

Have you ever been handed any notes or documents to prepare you for your testimony?

# 155 A:

No.

# 156 Q:

Have you met Mr. Kelly outside of my presence regarding this litigation?

# 157 A:

No.

# 158 Q:

Mr. Brewer?

# 159 A:

No.

# 160 Q:

Natasha?

# 161 A:

No.

# 162 Q:

Peter Gelblum.

# 163 A:

Who is Peter?

# 164 Q:

Man with the beard who came in every once in a while.

# 165 A:

No.

# 166 Q:

Now, you were shown Exhibit 165,which was the transcript of your interview with Barbara Walters. True?

# 167 A:

True.

# 168 Q:

And when you sat with Barbara Walters, they taped a great deal of your interview. True?

# 169 A:

True.

# 170 Q:

And did-what they showed on TV, was that everything that you said to Barbara Walters?

# 171 A:

Pretty much, yes.

# 172 Q:

Every single comment you said to Barbara Walters in your interview was aired on the show "20/20"?

# 173 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading

# 174 MS. FISCHMAN:

Everything?

# 175 MR. PETROCELLI:

and argumentative.

# 176 MR.KRAMER:

Do you understand the question?

# 177 MS. FISCHMAN:

I don't remember. I mean, when you mean "everything," I mean, we talked afterwards and we talked prior to that, so

# 178

BY MR. BAKER:

# 179 Q:

When they turned on the cameras

# 180 A:

Yes.

# 181 Q:

and they had you speaking with Barbara Walters and when they strut off the cameras, when you eventually saw that program on TV, did they show your entire interview with Barbara Walters?

# 182 A:

They showed entire interview? Yes.

# 183 Q:

Every single clip, every single question she asked you was shown on the "20/20" show.

# 184 MR.KELLY:

Objection. Asked and answered.

# 185 MR. PETROCELLI:

Compound. Leading, argumentative and

# 186 MR. KELLY:

Harassing the witness.

# 187 MR. PETROCELLI:

asked and answered.

# 188 MS. FISCHMAN:

I don't know.

# 189

BY MR. BAKER:

# 190 Q:

Do you remember how long your interview with Miss Walters was?

# 191 A:

I would say an hour, less than an hour, something like that.

# 192 Q:

45 minutes?

# 193 A:

Yeah.

# 194 Q:

Have you ever talked spoken with Rolf since you saw him on June 14th?

# 195 A:

No.

# 196 Q:

Have you ever spoken with Ron Hardy since you saw him on June 14th?

# 197 A:

Yes.

# 198 Q:

When?

# 199 A:

The day after I did the Barbara Walters or after the Barbara Walters episode was shown.

# 200 Q:

What did he say to you?

# 201 A:

Well, I called him up because I was upset with him.

# 202 Q:

Why were you upset with him?

# 203 A:

Because he went to "Inside" one of the "Inside Edition" and made a comment how what kind of a friend I was to be revealing all of these things about Nicole.

# 204 Q:

And you were upset with him because you were telling the truth in that interview with Barbara Walters. True?

# 205 A:

Well, because I said, "If I ever talked, I am going to tell the truth," yes.

# 206 Q:

Any other conversations with Ron Hardy?

# 207 A:

That was the last time.

# 208 Q:

Do you believe O.J. Simpson's a good father?

# 209 A:

I would say he was a good father, yes.

KEY QUOTE

# 210 Q:

Do you still believe he's a good father?

# 211 A:

Yes.

# 212 Q:

This coffee shop that Nicole was going to open up, did she tell you where she was going to open this coffee shop up?

# 213 A:

Did she tell me?

# 214 (Nods head.)

# 215 A:

No. First she talked about the one by Starbucks in Santa Monica, but that was it.

# 216 Q:

When did she tell you about that?

# 217 A:

She told me at some point in time that she was going to open a business, something...

# 218 Q:

And she wanted

# 219 A:

She mentioned that to O.J., too, at some point, so...

# 220 Q:

And she wanted to open it up in Brentwood?

# 221 A:

Yes.

# 222 Q:

Right by the Starbucks on San Vicente?

# 223 A:

Right.

# 224 Q:

And this coffee shop that she wanted to open up in Brentwood in the San Vicente area?

# 225 A:

Right.

# 226 Q:

And when did she want to open that coffee shop up?

# 227 A:

When?

# 228 MR. PETROCELLI:

Lacks foundation.

# 229 MS. FISCHMAN:

I don't know. She thought about it, so I don't know when.

# 230

BY MR. BAKER:

# 231 Q:

When did she tell you about this?

# 232 A:

Oh, she told me again like around '94. I don't know when.

# 233 Q:

Did you take Alvia home on June 14th after you left Nicole's condo?

# 234 A:

No.

# 235 Q:

How did she get home? Do you know?

# 236 A:

I think it was Lou. Lou took her home.

# 237 Q:

Were people waving up and down the walkway on June 14th?

# 238 A:

Walkway?

# 239 (Nods head.)

# 240 A:

Yes.

# 241 Q:

Did anybody go out the back gate that you saw?

# 242 A:

No, I didn't see anybody.

# 243 Q:

Did you see anybody walk through the garage?

# 244 A:

Well, the garage door was open. That's where the cars were, the two Cherokee, and it was already full of

# 245 Q:

Okay.

# 246 A:

Nicole's belongings.

# 247 Q:

How did you leave

# 248 A:

How did I leave?

# 249 Q:

the Bundy condo on June 14th?

# 250 A:

I left the front, front gate.

# 251 Q:

You walked out of her front door walked down the walkway and walked out the front gate.

# 252 A:

Right.

# 253 Q:

And Ron and Rolf were still out there cleaning. True?

# 254 A:

At that time, yes, they were still out.

# 255 Q:

So the entire time that you were in Nicole's condo on June 14th, Rolf and Ron were cleaning the outside area. True?

# 256 A:

True.

# 257 Q:

And you were there more than an hour?

# 258 A:

I would say not more that an hour, no. It was

# 259 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection to the last two questions as leading. Move to strike the answers.

# 260 MS. FISCHMAN:

I would say about an hour, yes.

# 261

BY MR. BAKER:

# 262 Q:

About an hour? What did you say to them when you were leaving? Do you remember?

# 263 A:

I don't remember.

# 264 Q:

When Ron Goldman or when Nicole told you that Ron had driven Nicole's car, what time of day was that?

# 265 A:

When Ron Goldman drove the car?

# 266 Q:

Yes.

# 267 A:

It was in the evening.

# 268 Q:

Okay. It was dark out?

# 269 A:

Yes.

# 270 Q:

Now, in your interview with Michael Viner on page 25, you state, "I never saw Nicole with bruises." At page 25, line 10. You were telling the truth to Michael Viner. True?

# 271 A:

True.

# 272 MR. BAKER:

I've got nothing further.

# 273 MR. PETROCELLI:

Nothing further at this point.

# 274 MR. KELLY:

Oh, just can you pick me up just speaking here?

# 275

EXAMINATION

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Cora Fischman

I never saw Nicole with bruises.

Baker cites this directly from her Michael Viner interview, page 25 line 10, as a prior inconsistent statement undermining the domestic violence narrative central to the plaintiffs' case.

Cora Fischman

True.

Fischman repeatedly confirms, under Baker's leading questions, that Ron Hardy and Rolf were cleaning and hosing the exterior walkway and back gate area for the entire hour she was at Bundy on June 14 — with no police present.

Cora Fischman

If I ever talked, I am going to tell the truth.

Her explanation for why she was upset at Ron Hardy going to Inside Edition to criticize her Barbara Walters interview — positions her as a truth-teller but also shows friction among Nicole's inner circle.

Cora Fischman

Yes. I would say he was a good father, yes.

Baker elicits this about O.J. Simpson — a humanizing moment for the defense, directly contradicting the plaintiffs' portrait of Simpson as an abusive, controlling presence.

Evidence (2)

Exhibit 165

Transcript of Fischman's interview with Barbara Walters, aired on '20/20'

Referenced; Baker probes whether the full interview was aired or if portions were cut

Informal

Michael Viner interview transcript, page 25 line 10 — Fischman states 'I never saw Nicole with bruises'

Used to impeach on domestic violence; Fischman confirms it was truthful

Notable Exchanges (4)

MR. BAKER•Cora Fischman

Baker systematically walks Fischman through the June 14 cleanup: Ron Hardy and Rolf hosing the walkway, back gate area wet, no police tape, no officers present — for the full hour she was there. Each detail confirmed with 'True.'

strategic

MR. BAKER•Cora Fischman

Baker asks whether Fischman met with any plaintiff attorneys (Petrocelli, Kelly, Brewer, Natasha, Gelblum) to prepare her testimony. She denies all contact.

procedural

MR. KELLY•Cora Fischman

Kelly follows up to clarify where exactly Hardy was hosing — establishing he was near the front gate, hosing toward the street — and confirms Fischman did not approach the back gate area.

clarifying

MR. BAKER•Cora Fischman

Baker asks about Ron Hardy calling Fischman's Barbara Walters appearance exploitative; she explains she called him upset because she was 'telling the truth.'

revealing

Light Moments (1)

Cora Fischman

Fischman can't remember the name 'Rolf' and keeps saying 'Ralph' — Baker gently corrects her twice before they land on the right name.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Cora Fischman

prior inconsistent statement

Baker confronts Fischman with her Michael Viner interview in which she stated she 'never saw Nicole with bruises' — she confirms it was truthful, undermining domestic violence testimony.

⚔ Cora Fischman

scope of media interview

Baker presses whether the Barbara Walters '20/20' interview showed 'every single' clip or was edited — Fischman is uncertain, suggesting her public statements may have been selectively presented.

Witness Demeanor

(Nods head.) used by Baker as question, noted in transcript

(Indicating) — witness physically demonstrates direction Hardy was hosing during Kelly's examination

Objections

12 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

Proceeding 9014 • 275 utterances • Plaintiff witness

Deposition Trial

Department 103