Continued cross-examination of Philip Vannatter

📄 Continued cross-examination of Philip Vannatter — Thursday, July 7, 1994

Address:

C:\DEPT103\PRELIMINARY\1994\JUL\7\CONTINUED-CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 5 of 6

◀ Reconvening court and recalling Detective Vannatter Redirect examination of Philip Vannatter ▶

Witness: Det. Philip Vannatter
Examiner: Robert Shapiro
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, July 7, 1994 • Lines: 139

Shapiro continued cross-examining Detective Vannatter about Simpson's finger cut, the lack of matching damage on the gloves, and Vannatter's theory that the killer carried one glove to Rockingham. He then challenged the search around that glove, the preservation and custody of the Bronco, and the limited handling of a purchased stiletto offered as a possible model of the murder weapon.

# 1 THE COURT:

All right. You may proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION (continued)

# 2

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 3 Q:

Detective Vannatter, prior to the time you observed the cut on the index finger of Mr. Simpson, did you have any information as to the possible source of the cut?

# 4 MS. CLARK:

Same objection.

# 5 THE COURT:

Overruled. You can answer "yes" or "no."

# 6 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER:

I'm trying to think about that. I believe -- I don't really recall if I do or not at this point -- or whether I did or not at this point.

# 7

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 8 Q:

In any event, other then photographing it, you took no steps to ascertain anything else regarding the cut?

# 9 A:

Well, no, that's not totally true. I asked the nurse that took the blood sample to look at and cleanse and put a Band-Aid on the wound.

# 10 Q:

Other than that, did you have anyone else examine that wound for age, type of wound, the way the wound was inflicted, or any other indicia that would be important regarding that wound?

# 11 A:

No, sir.

# 12 Q:

Now, that wound is described as being on the index finger of the left hand?

# 13 A:

It's on the middle finger of the left hand on the large knuckle. The main wound is on the large knuckle.

# 14 Q:

And did you compare the location of that wound to a glove that was found either at Bundy or Rockingham?

# 15 A:

No, sir, I didn't.

# 16 Q:

Has anybody under your direction looked at the glove to see whether or not there is a slice in the glove on the middle finger of the left hand that would coincide with the injury Mr. Simpson suffered when you observed it?

# 17 A:

Yes, I had the glove looked at.

# 18 Q:

And what conclusions have been drawn?

# 19 A:

I was informed that there was no -- no slice on the glove that would correspond with that injury.

KEY QUOTE

# 20 Q:

Is it your opinion, based on your investigation, that the murderer was wearing gloves at the time?

# 21 A:

Yes.

# 22 Q:

Do you have any opinion as to how the glove got to the location on Rockingham?

# 23 A:

Yes, I certainly do.

# 24 Q:

And what is that?

# 25 A:

My opinion of how the glove got to the location on Rockingham?

# 26 Q:

Yes.

# 27 A:

Well, I believe at the time of the murder, the person was wearing gloves. And during the struggle with the man, one of the gloves was dropped at the crime scene and the other glove was then transported to Rockingham.

# 28 Q:

And how did it end up in the debris at Rockingham, in your opinion?

# 29 A:

Well, from looking at the scene and from knowing all the circumstances that surround that, I believe it was dropped back there by the person that transported it up to that location, doing whatever he was doing behind there that created the loud thumps on the wall.

# 30 Q:

And so, I would take it, you would have the criminalist search that area for blood drops.

# 31 A:

Yes.

# 32 Q:

And did you have the criminalist search that area for blood drops?

# 33 A:

Yes.

# 34 Q:

Were any found?

# 35 A:

Not to my knowledge.

# 36 Q:

I would take it you would have the criminalist check on that area to see if there were any footprints with blood on them.

# 37 A:

Yes.

# 38 Q:

Did you have that done?

# 39 A:

I even looked at it myself. There was a lot of debris and leaves lying on the walkway.

# 40 Q:

Were there any bloody footprints in that area?

# 41 A:

I didn't see any, sir, no.

# 42 Q:

I take it you would want to determine whether or not -- prior to investigator Fuhrman going back there -- whether or not anybody else walked in that area. Is that correct?

# 43 A:

I'm not sure I understand that. Could --

# 44 Q:

Prior to investigator Fuhrman going to that area, did you make any determination as to whether anyone else had walked in that area?

# 45 A:

Prior to detective Fuhrman going there?

# 46 Q:

Yes.

# 47 A:

I was not aware of the location until detective Fuhrman told me about it.

# 48 Q:

Well, was there any attempt made when detective Fuhrman went back there to preserve that area so there would be no disturbance of any potential evidence that may be recovered?

# 49 A:

Yes. I instructed the criminalist to protect it, protect the piece of evidence, and protect the area before I left there, yes.

# 50 Q:

Was there any determination made as to whether anybody had walked back there before detective Fuhrman?

# 51 A:

I don't know that that could be done with the type of debris that was on the walkway. I would have to say no, there was no determination made.

# 52 Q:

Was there any determination made as to whether or not that glove could have been thrown over a fence into the area?

# 53 A:

I don't know how that could be determined. I don't know.

# 54 Q:

Was there any determination made as to whether or not that glove could have been dropped out of a bathroom window?

# 55 MS. CLARK:

Objection. How could -- counsel is asking for an impossibility. How could such a thing ever be determined?

# 56 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 57 MR. SHAPIRO:

May I be heard, Your Honor?

# 58 THE COURT:

Not at this time.

# 59 MR. SHAPIRO:

Thank you.

# 60

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 61 Q:

Was there any determination made that would show any difference between the age of the linings of the two gloves?

# 62 A:

Not to my knowledge. Not at this time, no.

# 63 Q:

You were present during the coroner's autopsy?

# 64 A:

Yes, sir.

# 65 Q:

And you've been in contact with the criminalist?

# 66 A:

Yes, sir.

# 67 Q:

And you were in charge of one of the crime scenes?

# 68 A:

Yes, sir.

# 69 Q:

Which one was that?

# 70 A:

The one on Rockingham.

# 71 Q:

Did you properly secure that crime scene to preserve evidence?

# 72 A:

I believe I did, yes.

# 73 Q:

Did you properly preserve the Ford Bronco to preserve evidence?

# 74 A:

I attempted to. I believe I did, yes.

# 75 Q:

And how did you preserve the Ford Bronco for future evidence?

# 76 A:

I had officers at the scene. I instructed them to protect and preserve the items as well as the Ford, and I instructed the officers to have the vehicle impounded to the print shed, Los Angeles Police Department print shed.

# 77 Q:

To your knowledge, were those directions followed?

# 78 A:

I would hope so.

# 79 Q:

Do you know if they were or not?

# 80 A:

No, because I was not at the scene there for a long period of time.

# 81 Q:

Do you have any reports or have you heard from any officer that coffee stains from members of the media were on the Bronco after you secured the crime scene?

# 82 A:

No, sir, I'm not aware of that.

# 83 Q:

Do you have any information that after you secured the crime scene, the Bronco was towed to Viterrelis' (sic) tow truck yard?

# 84 A:

That's a possibility. I'm not aware of that either, sir.

# 85 Q:

That wouldn't be something you directed, would it?

# 86 A:

Well, that could be done because the tow service for West Los Angeles division, each area has a separate tow service. It could have been taken there before it was brought to the print shed. I didn't know that.

# 87 Q:

Well, you wouldn't do that as somebody who had secured evidence, to have some tow truck driver take it to a tow yard, would you?

# 88 A:

Well, that's normally what happens with vehicles that we impound. They're normally impounded by the tow service that's in that area.

# 89 Q:

And is that a proper way of preserving evidence, in your opinion?

# 90 A:

It's about the only way that we can move a vehicle without driving it.

# 91 Q:

Is it a proper way of preserving evidence, to have an independent tow truck driver tow a car by himself to an impound yard?

# 92 A:

Well, they're not independent. They're O.P.G. tow services, which are our official police garages that are licensed by the police commission, and that is normally done from each area that you're in. Each area would have its own O.P.G. service. Yes, I think that's a proper way of protecting it.

# 93 Q:

So as one of the lead homicide detectives in the Los Angeles Police Department, you feel secure that you can leave a scene, have an unknown tow truck driver come, hook up a piece --

# 94 MS. CLARK:

Objection. This is argumentative.

# 95 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 96 MR. SHAPIRO:

I hadn't even finished. It gets better.

KEY QUOTE

# 97

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 98 Q:

You weren't aware that that happened, though?

# 99 A:

Aware that --

# 100 MS. CLARK:

Objection; vague. What?

# 101

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 102 Q:

Okay. Tell us what happened -- to your knowledge, what happened to the Ford Bronco from the time you left it at the crime scene on Rockingham.

# 103 A:

I don't know, sir. I wasn't there.

KEY QUOTE

# 104 Q:

Well, why don't you look at your book or your notes or your chronological record or talk to some of your fellow detectives and see if you can answer that question.

# 105 MS. CLARK:

Well, objection, Your Honor. This witness is the one who's being posed the question now. If counsel wants to ask the question of another witness who may have personal knowledge, he's free to do so. But to direct this witness to run around and talk to people and look through books is an improper question.

# 106 THE COURT:

Sustained as to the form of the question.

# 107 MR. SHAPIRO:

Your Honor, I thought he said he was in charge of the investigation at Rockingham.

# 108 THE COURT:

Do you have that kind of information available in your murder book?

# 109 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER:

Your Honor, there should be a tow record on the vehicle in the murder book, yes. A vehicle report that would indicate that the vehicle was towed.

# 110

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 111 Q:

You were present, you told us, at the coroner's autopsy?

# 112 A:

Yes.

# 113 Q:

You've talked to the criminalist?

# 114 A:

Talked to --

# 115 Q:

Have you talked to a criminalist in this case?

# 116 A:

The -- yes, the Los Angeles Police Department criminalist, yes.

# 117 Q:

Have you talked to more than one criminalist for the Los Angeles Police Department?

# 118 A:

Yes.

# 119 Q:

How many are involved in this case?

# 120 A:

Well, I know of three personally. Would you like me to name them?

# 121 Q:

Yes, please.

# 122 A:

Well, Mrs. Kestler who is the assistant lab director has assisted. Colin Yamauchi --

# 123 MS. CLARK:

Objection; Your Honor. I think counsel's question was vague and is drawing an answer that indicates how vague it was. If counsel could be more specific in his question to detective Vannatter to indicate whether he means the criminalist that goes to the crime scene, does the field work, or the ones that are serologists that work in the lab dealing with the analysis of the physical evidence. They are two different things.

# 124 THE COURT:

The objection is overruled. Yamauchi, Kestler?

# 125 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER:

And Dennis Fung.

# 126

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 127 Q:

Are you aware that the Los Angeles Police Department went to a location known as Ross' cutlery and purchased a stiletto knife?

# 128 A:

Yes.

# 129 Q:

Was that stiletto knife, to your knowledge, shown or described to the coroner?

# 130 A:

Yes.

# 131 Q:

Which one? Was it shown?

# 132 A:

Shown to the coroner.

# 133 Q:

Was it shown or described to the criminalists?

# 134 A:

I don't believe so.

# 135 Q:

Do you have an opinion as to whether or not a stiletto knife substantially similar to the one you purchased was the murder weapon in this case?

# 136 A:

That's way outside my field of expertise. I would have no answer to that.

KEY QUOTE

# 137 MR. SHAPIRO:

Thank you, nothing further.

# 138 THE COURT:

Ms. Clark, do you have any additional questions?

# 139 MS. CLARK:

I do, Your Honor.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Det. Philip Vannatter

I was informed that there was no -- no slice on the glove that would correspond with that injury.

Vannatter acknowledged that the glove did not show damage matching Simpson's finger wound.

Det. Philip Vannatter

I believe it was dropped back there by the person that transported it up to that location, doing whatever he was doing behind there that created the loud thumps on the wall.

Vannatter stated the prosecution investigators' theory connecting the Rockingham glove to the killer and the reported thumping noises.

Det. Philip Vannatter

I don't know, sir. I wasn't there.

The lead Rockingham detective admitted he lacked personal knowledge of the Bronco's handling after he left the scene.

Robert Shapiro

I hadn't even finished. It gets better.

Shapiro responded sarcastically after an argumentative-question objection was sustained, reflecting the friction during cross-examination.

Det. Philip Vannatter

That's way outside my field of expertise. I would have no answer to that.

Vannatter declined to say whether a knife similar to the LAPD-purchased stiletto was the murder weapon.

Evidence (7)

Informal

A photograph taken of the cut on Simpson's left middle finger; Shapiro questioned the limited investigation of the wound beyond photographing and dressing it.

discussed

Informal

The blood sample drawn from Simpson by a nurse, who was also asked to clean and bandage his finger wound.

discussed

Informal

The gloves recovered at Bundy and Rockingham, including whether either had a slice corresponding to Simpson's finger injury and how the Rockingham glove reached the debris-covered walkway.

discussed and challenged

Informal

Potential blood drops and bloody footprints sought near the Rockingham glove; Vannatter knew of none and personally saw no bloody footprints.

discussed

Informal

The Ford Bronco at Rockingham, including its preservation, towing, impoundment, and alleged exposure to media coffee stains.

discussed and challenged

Informal

The murder book and its expected tow record or vehicle report documenting the Bronco's removal; Shapiro also referred to Vannatter's notes and chronological record.

discussed

+ 1 more

Notable Exchanges (5)

Robert Shapiro•Det. Philip Vannatter

Shapiro elicited Vannatter's theory that one glove was lost during the murders and the other was carried to Rockingham, then contrasted it with the lack of known blood drops, bloody footprints, or a determination of who had entered the walkway.

strategic

Robert Shapiro•Marcia Clark•Kathleen Kennedy-Powell

Clark objected when Shapiro asked whether investigators determined that the glove could have been dropped from a bathroom window; the judge sustained the objection and declined to hear argument at that time.

tense

Robert Shapiro•Det. Philip Vannatter•Marcia Clark•Kathleen Kennedy-Powell

Shapiro pressed Vannatter about entrusting the Bronco to the towing system and his ignorance of its subsequent movements; repeated objections restricted the questioning, while the judge clarified that a tow record should exist in the murder book.

contentious

Robert Shapiro•Det. Philip Vannatter•Marcia Clark•Kathleen Kennedy-Powell

Vannatter identified Susan Kestler, Colin Yamauchi, and Dennis Fung as LAPD criminalists involved in the case after Clark unsuccessfully objected that the question was vague.

procedural

Robert Shapiro•Det. Philip Vannatter

Shapiro established that the LAPD's purchased stiletto had been shown to the coroner but apparently not to the criminalists, and Vannatter disclaimed expertise on whether it resembled the murder weapon.

revealing

Light Moments (1)

Robert Shapiro

After the court sustained an objection before he completed a question about the Bronco's custody, Shapiro joked, "I hadn't even finished. It gets better."

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Det. Philip Vannatter

investigative omissions and admissions on cross-examination

Shapiro established that Vannatter obtained no expert examination of Simpson's finger wound for its age, type, or cause and did not personally compare its location with the gloves.

⚔ Det. Philip Vannatter

testing the theory against missing corroborating evidence

Shapiro challenged Vannatter's theory that the Rockingham glove was dropped by the killer by emphasizing the absence of known blood drops or bloody footprints and the failure to determine who had previously entered the area.

⚔ Det. Philip Vannatter

lack of personal knowledge and evidence-handling challenge

Shapiro attacked the handling and chain of custody of the Bronco, eliciting that Vannatter did not know what happened to it after he left Rockingham.

⚔ Det. Philip Vannatter

investigative-completeness challenge

Shapiro showed that the purchased stiletto was shown to the coroner but apparently not to the criminalists, while Vannatter could not opine whether a similar knife was the murder weapon.

Objections

6 objections (3 sustained, 2 overruled)

Proceeding 9137 • 139 lines • Prosecution witness

Preliminary Trial

Department 103