Redirect examination of Philip Vannatter (2 of 2)

📄 Redirect examination of Philip Vannatter (2 of 2) — Wednesday, July 6, 1994

Address:

C:\DEPT103\PRELIMINARY\1994\JUL\6\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-PHILIP.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 4 of 6

◀ Resumption of proceedings and recall of Detective Phillip Vannatter Recross-examination of Philip Vannatter ▶

Witness: Det. Philip Vannatter
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, July 6, 1994 • Lines: 132

On redirect, Marcia Clark sought to repair points raised on cross-examination about Vannatter's chronological log, the Bronco photographs, the timing of securing Rockingham, and the delay in identifying Ronald Goldman. Vannatter said the Bronco had not been moved, defended the completeness of his log, and explained that officers entered the compound because they feared an emergency involving injured people—not because they were pursuing a known suspect.

# 1

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

# 2

BY MS. CLARK:

# 3 Q:

Detective Vannatter, I'm kind of curious. You said that you were very surprised by a maid not being there on the property. And that you didn't -- on cross-examination, I think you indicated that you did not consider the possibility that she would have some days off. Did you expect someone to always be on that property?

# 4 A:

Well, from the appearance of the property, with lights on and vehicles parked there, yes, I thought someone was there.

# 5 Q:

And when you say "vehicles parked there," you mean the one on Rockingham, the Bronco outside?

# 6 A:

Well, that as well as two other vehicles that were parked inside the compound in the driveway which would be on the Rockingham drive.

# 7 Q:

There were multiple vehicles inside the driveway?

# 8 A:

There were two other vehicles that I could see, yes.

# 9 Q:

and you could see that from the Ashford gate?

# 10 A:

Well, no. I saw that from the Rockingham gate. When I walked over to that area, I could see it.

# 11 Q:

When you walked over and you were looking at the Bronco?

# 12 A:

That's correct, yes.

# 13 Q:

You could see through that gate?

# 14 A:

Yes.

# 15 Q:

Can you show us on that defense diagram where you saw those other cars?

# 16 A:

Certainly. The vehicles were parked up in this area here, which is the little jut out that looked like a parking area for vehicles. And looking through the gate, you could see the vehicles parked there.

# 17 MS. CLARK:

For the record, the witness has pointed to an area that is actually just above the area of what is marked as the word "driveway" on the diagram, that is the southern most portion of the property.

# 18 THE COURT:

All right.

# 19

BY MS. CLARK:

# 20 Q:

So counsel was asking you about using the chrono log forms.

# 21 A:

Yes.

# 22 Q:

What is the difference between a blank piece of paper and the form that you used for your chronological log?

# 23 A:

Nothing, except there's lines on the chronological log and there's a heading that says "chronological log."

# 24 Q:

So the difference between a blank page and the chrono log form is horizontal lines and a heading.

# 25 A:

Yes.

# 26 Q:

What information is usually required to be on a chronological log? When you make an entry, what are you supposed to put in that entry?

# 27 A:

The entries are mainly very general entries as to the day and quite possibly the time that you make a follow-up, but you never put the information that you receive from that on the log.

# 28 Q:

That just records what you did, not the results of what you did?

# 29 A:

Exactly.

# 30 Q:

And did you look at the chronological log that's been compiled so far in this case?

# 31 A:

When it was in front of me, yes.

# 32 Q:

What information -- what is the difference between what you've got on the blank pages written down on the chronological log than you would have had on the form with the lines on it?

# 33 A:

There would be no difference.

# 34 Q:

So you've got the same information on this chrono log that you would have if you had used the forms with the horizontal lines and the headings.

# 35 A:

Yes.

# 36 Q:

Now, the photographs of the Bronco --

# 37 MS. CLARK:

I wonder if I could inquire of the clerk. Do we have the defense exhibits here?

# 38 THE CLERK:

I have all the exhibits, yes.

# 39 MS. CLARK:

Could you bring them?

# 40 THE CLERK:

Sure.

# 41 MS. CLARK:

Thank you.

# 42

BY MS. CLARK:

# 43 Q:

How many pictures of the Ford Bronco in its position on the street were taken, sir?

# 44 A:

I don't know.

# 45 Q:

More than one?

# 46 A:

Several, I would say, yes.

# 47 Q:

Do you remember what each and every one of them look like right now?

# 48 A:

No, I do not.

# 49 Q:

You requested the criminalist to make sure that photographs were taken of that Bronco, I think you so testified.

# 50 A:

Yes.

# 51 Q:

What was your intention with respect to taking those photographs of the Bronco?

# 52 A:

To document any evidence and the location of the vehicle and the identity of the vehicle.

# 53 MS. CLARK:

There is a defense EXHIBIT. I don't know which one that is, Your Honor, with the --

# 54 THE COURT:

Is that the one with the four photos on it?

# 55 MS. CLARK:

Yes.

# 56 THE COURT:

That is 'F'.

# 57 MS. CLARK:

Thank you very much.

# 58

BY MS. CLARK:

# 59 Q:

Showing you Defense Exhibit 'F', do you recognize what's shown in there, sir?

# 60 A:

Yes, I do.

# 61 Q:

What is it?

# 62 A:

It's four pictures, labeled 1 through 4, of different perspectives of the same vehicle, the Ford Bronco.

# 63 Q:

Okay. And showing you Defense Exhibit 'C', do you recognize what's shown there?

# 64 A:

Yes, I do.

# 65 Q:

What's shown there?

# 66 A:

That's the Ford Bronco, the west wall, and the Rockingham gate to Mr. Simpson's residence.

# 67 Q:

Looking at those photographs, sir, defense counsel, I think, asked you whether the pictures taken of the Ford Bronco at your direction through the criminalist were accurate pictures of the position of that car as you saw it on Rockingham. Do you recall that question, sir?

# 68 A:

Yes.

# 69 Q:

With respect to whether or not the car had been moved from the position in which you first observed it, is that -- is it the case that the car was not moved before those photographs were taken?

# 70 A:

The car was not moved.

KEY QUOTE

# 71 Q:

Can you see in those photographs the angle that you've described for us earlier with the rear end jutting out a little bit, appearing to have been parked in haste?

# 72 A:

Yes, I can.

# 73 Q:

Show us where.

# 74 A:

If you look at pictures number 2 and number 4, it shows the front wheel of the vehicle to be setting actually on the paved curb section -- part of the paved curb section in the asphalt. And the back wheel, the passenger side, to be strictly on the asphalt, farther west than the front wheel.

# 75 Q:

And are either of the wheels up next to the curb?

# 76 A:

No, they are not.

# 77 Q:

I think you earlier indicated that at some point you saw the children leaving the house.

# 78 A:

Yes.

# 79 Q:

Do you recall what transpired in terms of arranging for their care and custody while you were in the house on 360 Rockingham?

# 80 A:

Yes, I do.

# 81 Q:

Can you please tell us?

# 82 A:

After Detective Lange had a conversation with Mr. Simpson, Mr. Simpson had indicated to Detective Lange that he wished the children to be with his daughter, Arnelle. She was notified of that, contacted Al Cowlings. He responded to the location and they went to West Los Angeles division and picked up the children.

# 83 Q:

Do you know when the children arrived at 360 Rockingham with Al Cowlings?

# 84 A:

I know approximately. It would have been around, I believe, around 7:00 o'clock in the morning.

# 85 Q:

And how long after that did you determine that the area should be sealed for the purpose of securing a search warrant?

# 86 A:

I had actually come to that conclusion a little earlier than that. I was waiting for the criminalist to respond there to do a presumptive blood test for me, and after that was done was when I closed down the area and secured the area.

# 87 Q:

And you closed down -- do you remember what time it was approximately when you secured the area?

# 88 A:

It would have been between 7:00 and 7:30. I left the location approximately 7:30, so it was before I left there. So it would have been some time in the range of probably 7:10 to 7:15, something like that.

# 89 Q:

Shortly after Al Cowlings got there with the children?

# 90 A:

Yes.

# 91 Q:

Counsel asked you on cross-examination about tactical support, I think it was mentioned, with respect to, in that instance, the effort made to take the defendant into custody. Do you recall that question, sir?

# 92 A:

Yes, I do.

# 93 Q:

How is that situation different from the one that you found confronting you at 360 Rockingham in the early morning hours of June 13th?

# 94 A:

Well, a tactical situation is totally different from the situation we were facing there. I believed this to be an emergency situation which requires, I felt, action to be taken. A tactical situation is if you have a location that you know you have a suspect, a hostage or whatever, if these are known facts, you immediately request uniforms to respond. You notify a supervisor. Detectives are required to put on vests and what we call raid jackets, Los Angeles police raid jackets, that readily identify us as police officers. This was not this situation at all. This situation was something that I felt was an emergency that needed to be handle immediately.

# 95 Q:

And in this situation, did you believe that you had -- did you believe that you were pursuing a suspect into the residence at 360 Rockingham?

# 96 A:

I really didn't know what I was pursuing in there. I had no specific suspect in mind at that point. My main feeling at that point, coupled with all the information I had, was this was a situation that someone could be injured, we could have another murder scene, we could have a murder/suicide scene, we could have people that needed assistance. And that was my feeling.

KEY QUOTE

# 97 Q:

So would it be fair to say, sir, that you were concerned not so much for your safety, but for the safety of someone else you might find inside the compound?

# 98 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection; leading and suggestive.

# 99 THE COURT:

sustained.

# 100

BY MS. CLARK:

# 101 Q:

Were you concerned for officers' safety at the moment you decided to go over the wall?

# 102 A:

Not at all. I wouldn't have let anyone enter that location the way we were if I felt there was a safety problem at that time.

# 103 Q:

Well, if you were concerned for someone else's safety, sir, why didn't you call an ambulance right then before you went over the wall?

# 104 A:

I would never call an ambulance until an area has been cleared and secured. I don't want to bring someone else in that could be in danger. I wouldn't do that.

# 105 Q:

So until you found out what you had back there, you were not about to call an ambulance.

# 106 A:

No, not until I assessed the situation and actually knew what I was dealing with. At that point, again, I didn't really know what I was dealing with. I was -- I had certain knowledge that gave me a feeling that this was an emergency situation and something that had to be dealt with immediately. And at that point I didn't know whether I had people down, I didn't know whether I had, again, another scene, someone injured. I didn't know.

# 107 MS. CLARK:

May I have a moment, Your Honor?

# 108 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 109 MS. CLARK:

Thank you.

# 110

BY MS. CLARK:

# 111 Q:

You were asked earlier, sir, about the method in which Ronald Goldman (sic) was notified and how long it took to do that.

# 112 A:

You mean the family of Mr. Goldman.

# 113 Q:

That's correct, I'm sorry.

# 114 A:

Yes.

# 115 Q:

Thank you. When you arrived at the crime scene at about 4:00 a.m., were you aware of the identity of the male victim who was found near Nicole Simpson?

# 116 A:

No.

# 117 Q:

Was anyone, to your knowledge, at the crime scene aware of his identity?

# 118 A:

No.

# 119 Q:

At what point was his identity made known to you?

# 120 A:

I actually found out his identity while I was at West Los Angeles station. It would have been somewhere between 10:00 and 11:00 o'clock. That the coroner's representatives had responded to the location and they had identified him from identification that was on him. Also --

# 121 Q:

So when the coroner's investigator arrived and found identification on him, that's when his identity was determined?

# 122 A:

That's correct.

# 123 Q:

Do you know what time that was, approximately?

# 124 A:

Well, I got notification while I was at West L.A. division. It would have been after 10:00 o'clock, I'm sure of that.

# 125 Q:

With respect to -- let's say for a moment that you knew that there was a suspect in 360 Rockingham Avenue. What would you have done?

# 126 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection; calls for speculation.

# 127 MS. CLARK:

This is an expert witness, Your Honor, who knows -- he's describing actually the differences between the situation he was confronted with and that with which he was questioned by Mr. Shapiro.

# 128 THE COURT:

Are you asking how he would have handled it differently if he was pursuing a suspect and he knew he was pursuing a suspect before he entered the premises?

# 129 MS. CLARK:

Yes, Your Honor.

# 130 THE COURT:

The objection is overruled.

# 131 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER:

Well, that would have become a tactical situation then. I would have made notification to the West Los Angeles watch commander, requested uniforms to respond to the location. I would have placed officers around the residence to secure the residence. I would have had the detectives there put on vests and raid jackets, and I would have contacted, probably, our Metropolitan Division to have special negotiators come out and try to talk the suspect out of the location.

KEY QUOTE

# 132 MS. CLARK:

I have nothing further.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (5)

Det. Philip Vannatter

The car was not moved.

Vannatter directly rejected any suggestion that the Bronco photographs failed to depict its original position.

Det. Philip Vannatter

This situation was something that I felt was an emergency that needed to be handle immediately.

This was the central justification offered for entering the Rockingham compound without using tactical procedures for a known suspect.

Det. Philip Vannatter

I really didn't know what I was pursuing in there. I had no specific suspect in mind at that point.

Vannatter denied that the entry was an attempt to pursue Simpson or another identified suspect.

Det. Philip Vannatter

My main feeling at that point, coupled with all the information I had, was this was a situation that someone could be injured, we could have another murder scene, we could have a murder/suicide scene, we could have people that needed assistance.

He framed the warrantless entry as an emergency-aid response based on concern for possible victims.

Det. Philip Vannatter

Well, that would have become a tactical situation then.

Vannatter distinguished the actual emergency entry from the containment, protective gear, uniformed support, and negotiation procedures he would have used for a known suspect.

Evidence (10)

Informal

A defense diagram of the Rockingham property on which Vannatter indicated where two vehicles were parked above the area labeled "driveway."

discussed and used for illustration

Informal

Standard chronological-log forms, described as lined pages with a "chronological log" heading, were compared with the blank pages Vannatter used.

discussed and challenged

Informal

The compiled chronological log for the case, which Vannatter said contained the same information that would have appeared on the standard forms.

discussed

Defense Exhibit 'F'

Four photographs, numbered 1 through 4, showing different perspectives of the Ford Bronco; Vannatter relied particularly on photographs 2 and 4 to explain its angled position.

displayed and discussed

Defense Exhibit 'C'

A photograph showing the Ford Bronco, the west wall, and the Rockingham gate to Simpson's residence.

displayed and discussed

Informal

The Ford Bronco parked on Rockingham, which Vannatter said was photographed before it was moved and appeared to have been parked in haste.

discussed

+ 4 more

Notable Exchanges (4)

Marcia Clark•Det. Philip Vannatter

Clark used the defense photographs to rehabilitate Vannatter's description of the Bronco, and he pointed to photographs 2 and 4 as showing that the rear passenger side sat farther west than the front.

strategic

Marcia Clark•Robert Shapiro•Kathleen Kennedy-Powell•Det. Philip Vannatter

Shapiro objected when Clark suggested that Vannatter was more concerned for others than for himself; the judge sustained the leading-objection, after which Clark elicited the same distinction through narrower questions.

procedural

Marcia Clark•Robert Shapiro•Kathleen Kennedy-Powell•Det. Philip Vannatter

Shapiro objected that a hypothetical about a known suspect called for speculation. After clarifying the question, the judge overruled the objection and allowed Vannatter to describe the tactical response he would have used.

strategic

Marcia Clark•Det. Philip Vannatter

Clark mistakenly referred to notifying Ronald Goldman; Vannatter clarified that she meant Goldman's family, and she corrected herself before establishing when his identity became known.

routine

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Det. Philip Vannatter

rehabilitation after impeachment concerning recordkeeping

Redirect rehabilitated Vannatter after cross-examination implied that using blank paper rather than standard chronological-log forms made his records deficient; he said the content would have been identical.

⚔ Det. Philip Vannatter

rehabilitation using photographic evidence

Redirect countered the suggestion that photographs undermined Vannatter's description of the Bronco's position. He maintained that the vehicle had not been moved and identified photographs showing its angled parking.

⚔ Det. Philip Vannatter

rehabilitation of police procedure and stated intent

Redirect addressed the defense comparison between the warrantless entry and a tactical suspect operation, allowing Vannatter to explain that he entered because he perceived an emergency rather than because he was pursuing a known suspect.

⚔ Det. Philip Vannatter

timeline clarification after cross-examination

Redirect answered criticism about the delay in notifying Ronald Goldman's family by establishing that the victim was not identified until after the coroner's representatives arrived.

Objections

2 objections (1 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 9113 • 132 lines • Prosecution witness

Preliminary Trial

Department 103