All right. We're once again on the record in the case of People versus Simpson. The defendant is present with counsel, the people are represented. Detective Fuhrman is on the stand. I remind you, sir, that you remain under oath.
Thank you. Mark Fuhrman, called as a witness by and on behalf of the People, having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed the stand and was examined and testified further as follows:
Detective Fuhrman, did you ever prepare any reports regarding your participation in this investigation?
No. I just took some preliminary notes while I was still at the scene before robbery homicide detectives arrived.
I gave them to detective Phillips, and they were in turn given to Detective Vannatter and Lange.
Now actually you were the first homicide detective to arrive at the scene at 875 south Bundy; is that correct?
Yes. We met at the station, got flashlights, our briefcases, anything else we thought we might need, got into a vehicle with a homicide kit in it and went to the scene.
All right. Now, ordinarily the homicide detective then takes charge of the investigation; is that correct?
All right. You mentioned that at some point Detective Vannatter and his partner took over the investigation?
I believe it was told to me that chief Frankel was notified of the V.I.P. nature of the homicide and determined that it was beyond the scope of our abilities to handle it in a geographic division and notified Robbery Homicide Division to respond with detectives to take over the investigation.
No. It's any type of a murder that would generate more logistical support than we're able to produce. Robbery homicide has the latitude of funneling a lot of people in an investigation and stick with it, where we still have cases that come up daily or weekly that would interrupt a large scale investigation such as this.
What time were you informed that Detective Vannatter and Detective Lange were taking over the case?
Had Detective Vannatter or Detective Lange arrived at the scene yet when you were informed of that?
No. I believe they arrived at -- Vannatter arrived at approximately 4:00, and I believe Detective Lange arrived at about 4:25.
Well, the streets were closed off at Dorothy and Bundy. The street to the north, one block to the north. The alleys to the rear had been secured. The front of the residence, there was no traffic going northbound on Bundy from Dorothy. The residence had been secured with officers to the rear. Officers to the front. There was a uniformed sergeant at the scene. I believe -- I believe there were six officers that were at the scene. It was secured with crime tape, the "please do not cross" tape, the yellow tape, at all those locations.
So essentially securing a scene means that it is totally blocked off so that no one other than the officers in charge have access to the scene; is that correct?
Okay. And I believe you indicated that rather than walk through the scene or the portion of the scene where the victims were located, in order not to disturb that, you walked -- you went around to the back?
Yes. The scene didn't appear that it would have been feasible to try to dodge evidence or the blood of the victim -- victims. We had to go around. It was too much of a jockey of -- too much of a balancing act to try to get around that. That was not feasible. We could have entered from the rear.
I'm not positive on how it was opened or who opened it. I know that the officers got it open through the switch inside, and I do not know how that took place. I was informed that one of the -- I believe one of the children showed the officer where the switch was, and I'm not positive on that.
So you actually went in through the house then and approached the crime scene from the rear?
I went in from the garage, walked next to the white Ferrari that was parked in the garage, and the door to the lower level of the house was open. I walked directly into a stairway and I entered, and that placed me inside the kitchen.
Well, I was walking rather slowly. I was looking around. Although officer Riske was leading us into this, showing us the scene from what he discovered, we were walking slowly and we were looking for anything that would appear to be evidence or something that could possibly be evidence. And then, yes, we did walk from the interior to the exterior of the front door.
No. The lights in the open front door were cascading down onto the two victims, onto the stairway.
All right. And I believe you indicated that you walked out onto the sidewalk overlooking the scene where the bodies were located?
I was directly above the female victim, which was probably three feet. The male victim would have been ten feet, twelve feet.
All right. And from that vantage point, you first observed the glove that you told us about?
We had flashlights. We were looking at the female victim. We looked at the male victim. I noticed the glove when I walked around to the -- after I exited the residence the first time and walked around to the side -- or the north side, north perimeter of 875 Bundy. There's an iron fence and through that iron fence you can get very close to the male victim. And looking there I could see them down at his feet.
There was a plant that kind of cascaded over the top of one portion of it, yes. That's why it was easier to see from that location to the north.
I'd probably say, probably five feet. Maybe a little longer than that. Maybe as much as six feet.
Well, you indicated you were 10 to 12 feet away from the male victim, and the glove was lying at the feet of the male victim. Did you at some point get closer then?
Yes. I went to the north residence where the victim was almost up against that iron gate that separated the property at 875 to the residence townhome to the north. And when you walk on that walkway along that fence, that was not part of the crime scene. It didn't appear that there was anything that transpired on that location. You can walk there and get a very good view of the male victim and everything to his east.
And at that time detective Phillips had told Vannatter and Lange about the relationship between Mr. Simpson and his former wife?
Were you present when Vannatter or Lange were briefed about any of the circumstances of the victim?
Yes, but I wasn't there that entire time. I wasn't standing at their side the entire time they were discussing the situation.
I believe it was Detective Vannatter at the direction of Commander Bushie of West Bureau, who was concerned that Mr. Simpson wasn't notified of the death by the media or a phone call. He wanted a personal appearance.
All right. Now is this routine in a homicide case, that as soon as you've identified the victim you notify the next of kin?
It's not that immediate in all cases, but I think in this case if it was leaked to the media, I think it would be a pretty insensitive way for a family member to find out.
Once I was relieved of the responsibility of the homicide -- I didn't direct any units. I was under the direction of Detective Vannatter and Lange.
All right. So you're not aware of any procedure being undertaken to notify the parents of the victim?
Like I said, sir, I wasn't privileged to knowing of any notifications and I didn't notify anyone myself.
I think if there's children involved and we have the children, I think it would probably be the appropriate thing to do.
Well, I believe a lot of the decisions of this came from the commander and detective Vannatter, and I really wasn't privileged to that conversation. But I would believe that I would be concerned with the children and the ex-husband since they still had joint custody of the children. We had the children at the police station. I think they were somewhat displaced by this at no cause of their own.
Well, just explain to me why you felt it was necessary for detectives to go to Mr. Simpson's home to notify him.
Myself, detective Phillips -- we were riding in one vehicle -- and Detective Vannatter and Lange.
All right. And you left the scene of the homicide to go to Mr. Simpson's home at about 5:00 in the morning?
The scene was secured and there was a supervisor at the scene. And I stand corrected. The lieutenant of detectives of West L.A. was -- remained at the scene.
Now, what did you contemplate that these four detectives would do in terms of notifying Mr. Simpson? Did you feel that you all needed to be there to lend him support?
Not at all, sir. Detective Lange and Vannatter didn't know the area. They asked me if I knew where Rockingham was and I said I did, and I led them to the Rockingham address.
So your purpose in going to the premises was to escort Detective Vannatter and show him the way to the location at Rockingham?
Basically I was asked, "do you know where the Rockingham address is?" And I said, "yes." He said, "would you take us up there?" And Detective Vannatter said, "Ron, Mark, you know, lead us up there."
Well, of course we do. But in this situation, there was no reason for him to stay at the scene. The two lead investigators were going to make a notification. There was nothing for detective Phillips to do at the scene. Lieutenant Spangler was at the scene, and I believe two uniformed supervisors and more than six officers, and there was ample enough security there to preserve the scene.
So the purpose of yourself and detective Phillips going to Mr. Simpson's residence was to escort Detective Vannatter and Detective Lange and make sure they didn't get lost; is that correct?
No. I just don't think they wanted to drive around in the dark, and some of those streets are very confusing. I knew the way. It was very simple.
At the time you left the premises at Bundy and went to Mr. Simpson's home, was Mr. Simpson a suspect at all in the homicide that you were investigating?
There was no suspicion at all focused on Mr. Simpson in terms of any responsibility for this homicide?
Now could you describe the light conditions at the time you left the Bundy premises and went to Mr. Simpson's home?
I believe you indicated that several of you rang the bell at different times; is that correct?
Well, I believe detective Phillips was simultaneously doing some of that towards the end of our attempts to use the intercom.
All right. Now, initially you were not concerned about the possibility of finding any victims or any suspects on the premises of Mr. Simpson's home; is that correct?
Which appears to be a photograph of the Bronco from a little further vantage point than the photos that have been previously identified. Thank you.
Is that how it was parked at the time you first saw it shortly after 5:00 a.m. on June 13th?
I can't tell because the way -- the thing that brought attention to the vehicle could only be seen if you were looking at it from the rear or the front. I don't even know if this is the same vehicle. I can't see the license plate. It's just a white Ford Bronco.
This is one of the crime scene photographs that was supplied as part of the discovery. Was the automobile moved before those photographs were taken?
Well, I'm going to object that there is no foundation. That looks -- we can't -- we don't know if that's a blow up. I don't know how counsel knows of personal knowledge what it is.
Well, is there some dispute as to whether that is the photograph that was provided to the defense? You don't know is what you're saying.
The source of our photographs was simply photographs that were delivered to us as part of discovery, crime scene photographs.
Your Honor, I'm not trying to make this difficult for counsel. If he can just show me the original that this was blown up from, then I'll be glad to stipulate. I just don't recognize it in its current form.
Your Honor, so there is no dispute on this, the problem we have is these photographs were given to us in no order, with no numbers, and we had hundreds of them, and so we had no way of categorizing them.
From that vantage point, it appears to be the position the automobile was in when you encountered it?
That position was on this chart right where it says "Rockingham avenue," approximately where the letters "C.K.I.N." are?
Okay. Now while you were examining the automobile, what were the other three detectives doing?
When I walked away, detective Phillips was still trying to make some phone calls on his cellular phone, and Vannatter and Lange were by the Ashford gate.
I believe there was one unit that had arrived, yes, and detective Phillips had contacted them trying to get the phone number inside.
Now the photographs that have been marked exhibit 8-A, -B and -C. These are also photos that were taken of the automobile as it was situated when you saw it; is that correct?
All right. And he's pointing in Exhibit 'A' to the red stain that you indicate you encountered shortly after 5:00 a.m.?
It wasn't completely dark, but it was so dark that the naked eye would not bring up most objects, yes.
So without the flashlight to illuminate it, you would not have observed this stain at that time?
I can't say that I wouldn't have, but using the flashlight, it aided, it came to the forefront of what I was viewing.
Yes. I saw four reddish stains, very thin lines, in photo 'A'. Right down where the door swings open and the frame is painted, where there's a door sill, there's four little lines, three or four.
Did you call those stains particularly to the attention of Detective Vannatter or any of the other detectives?
Did you call it to the attention of any of the criminalists who later arrived at the scene?
I was not directing criminalists on the Bronco. I did observe -- I believe I did observe photo 'A' being taken, but not from that angle. Other than that, I did not participate in the criminalists being directed to evidence.
Do you have any explanation then why these stains are not referred to in any of the subsequent reports?
Just the appearance of the stain. It looked like a red translucent stain that when you see dried blood, that's what it looks like.
And in fact, there are a number of other substances that would leave stains of the same color and texture as blood, are there not?
And the stain that you're referring to at the door handle is pictured in photograph 'B'; is that correct?
Now, after observing that speck, I believe you indicated that you became quite concerned that you may have a murder or a suicide on the premises at 360 north Rockingham?
Well, it wasn't just the stain. I think it was the totality of what I was seeing. The vehicle was carelessly, haphazardly parked. It just didn't look right. It was -- looked like it was quickly turned into the curb. The rear end was jutting out into the street several inches, if not maybe a foot farther than the front. The right tires were turned into the curb. There's no parallel parking here. The person could drive right past his own driveway to park the vehicle. The --
Well, surely whenever you see an automobile parked somewhat askance in front of a home, you don't conclude that there may be a murder or suicide on the premises, do you?
No, but when I'm coming from a double homicide and I find blood on a vehicle and then the haphazard way it was parked, I find a shovel and heavy plastic in the rear cargo area, I do have a concern for what do we have at this point, what is going on.
Well, yes, sir. I did not know what the circumstances were at Bundy. That scene gave more questions than answers. And we did not know if we did not have a kidnapping at this point. We were virtually very much in the dark as to what the Rockingham address meant and what this blood meant.
All right. I'm still somewhat puzzled, detective, by why what you saw on or in the car led you to conclude there may be a serious crime afoot on the premises. What connection did you see with the premises that you were about to enter?
Well, I think most of these things by themselves, excluding the blood, would not mean a lot. The vehicle parked that way by itself would not mean a lot. The shovel, the heavy plastic would not mean a lot. The blood concerned me, and then when you couple all these items together with the package addressed to Mr. Simpson at that address, coming from a double homicide at his ex-wife's house, the possibility to me of a kidnap victim that got away from the scene, a murder/suicide, a hostage situation, I think they were all things that I have to consider and eliminate.
So the blood on the vehicle led you immediately to make some connection between this vehicle and the scene of the homicide you had left?
Well, I think the coincidence was more than a coincidence. Whoever was driving this vehicle had blood from themselves or they were -- or they had blood from another person.
Well, did that lead you to suspect then that perhaps the person who had driven that vehicle to the Rockingham address had been somehow involved in the homicide that you had observed at the Bundy address?
They could have been involved as a victim, they could have been involved as a suspect, as a hostage, as a kidnap victim. I did not know, sir, and I could not conclude that from standing on the street.
I see. So the conclusion you came to was that whoever had been driving that vehicle was likely to be in the premises at Rockingham and have some connection, either as a victim or a suspect, in the homicide you had just left.
That, or they had information. As I said before, I don't know how that blood got on that vehicle, and I don't know who drove the vehicle. I had my concerns and I called the three other detectives over to show them my observations.
All right. Now, at this time you knew that the homicide you had left at Bundy had occurred prior to midnight the night before; is that correct?
So you were aware then that at least five hours and perhaps six or seven hours had elapsed since the time of the homicide that you observed on Bundy.
Was the stain what suggested to you the immediacy of going directly into the premises at 360 north Rockingham?
Oh, I think the totality of circumstances, as a total picture, gave me the concerns that I shared with Detective Vannatter, and we discussed those concerns. And we both agreed that we had a very sensitive emergency type situation that we had to do something. We could not just stand on the street. WE MET AT THE CORNER OF ASHFORD AND ROCKINGHAM. I TOLD THEM WHAT I HAD DISCOVERED. I SAID "I BELIEVE I FOUND SOME BLOOD ON THE BRONCO." I SHOWED ALL THREE OF THEM WHAT I HAD FOUND, AND DETECTIVES LANG AND PHILLIPS RETURNED TO THE ASHFORD GATE, STILL ATTEMPTING TO RAISE SOMEONE INSIDE THE HOUSE. DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND MYSELF DISCUSSED THE SITUATION AT THAT POINT, JUST SEVERAL FEET FROM IN FRONT OF THE BRONCO.
WHEN YOU SAID THEY WERE TRYING TO RAISE SOMEONE FROM THE HOUSE, BY WHAT MEANS WERE THEY DOING THAT?
I BELIEVE THEY WENT BACK TO THE ASHFORD GATE. AND I KNOW DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS TRYING TO CALL SOMEBODY IN THE RESIDENCE. I DON'T KNOW IF HE CEASED THAT ATTEMPT AT THAT TIME OR CONTINUED.
DID YOU HAVE IN YOUR POSSESSION, OR TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE DID THE OTHER DETECTIVES HAVE IN THEIR POSSESSION AT THAT TIME A PHONE NUMBER FOR THE HOUSE ITSELF?
YES, I AM ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT RON PHILLIPS HAD ALREADY ACQUIRED A PHONE NUMBER INSIDE THE RESIDENCE AND WAS TRYING, ON HIS CELLULAR PHONE, TO GET SOMEBODY TO ANSWER THE PHONE.
I AM NOT POSITIVE IF HE GOT THAT FROM THE WATCH COMMANDER OR WESTEC DIRECTLY, BUT I WAS TOLD THAT HE OBTAINED IT, AND THAT'S WHAT HE WAS IN THE PROCESS OF DOING. WE DISCUSSED THOSE CONCERNS, AND WE BOTH AGREED THAT WE HAD A VERY SENSITIVE EMERGENCY-TYPE SITUATION, THAT WE HAD TO DO SOMETHING, NOT JUST STAND ON THE STREET.
AND HOW MUCH TIME ELAPSED FROM THE TIME YOU SAW THE SPEC OF BLOOD ON THE DOOR UNTIL SOMEONE ACTUALLY WENT OVER THE WALL?
SO BY THIS TIME, HAD THE OTHER DETECTIVES ALREADY ATTEMPTED TO CALL INTO THE PREMISES BY TELEPHONE?
ISN'T IT ROUTINE, WHEN YOU FEEL YOU HAVE AN EMERGENCY THAT MAY INVOLVE VICTIMS OR SUSPECTS, TO HAVE UNIFORMED OFFICERS PRESENT WHEN YOU ENTER THE PREMISES?
NO. IT WOULD BE HIGHLY DESIRABLE FOR SOMETHING, A PLAN, A TACTICAL SITUATION, YOU KNOW, HOSTAGE OR SEARCH WARRANT OR ARREST WARRANT. BUT IT IS NOT SOMETHING SET IN STONE, AND I THINK THE CIRCUMSTANCES PRECLUDED US WAITING FOR SEVERAL MINUTES FOR A UNIT.
ALL RIGHT. DID YOU HAVE AVAILABLE ANY PUBLIC ADDRESS SYSTEM UNDER WHICH AN ANNOUNCEMENT COULD BE MADE TO PEOPLE INSIDE THE PREMISES?
OH, WE PROBABLY HAD THE ABILITY TO GET ON THE LOUD SPEAKER ON THE POLICE VEHICLE. BUT WE COULD HEAR THE RINGING OF THE PHONE INSIDE. WE COULD ALSO SEE THAT THERE WAS A LIGHT ON. WE HAD CALLED INSIDE THE RESIDENCE. I REALLY DON'T BELIEVE THAT WOULD DO ANY GOOD.
ALL RIGHT. COULD YOU HAVE CALLED IN A POLICE HELICOPTER AT THAT POINT TO VIEW THE PREMISES FROM THE AIR?
ALL RIGHT. DID YOU FEEL, AT THAT POINT, YOU HAD PROBABLE CAUSE THAT CRIMINAL ACTIVITY HAD GONE ON AT THE ROCKINGHAM PREMISES?
I THINK I WAS PERSONALLY MORE CONCERNED WITH SOMEBODY BLEEDING TO DEATH INSIDE. I JUST CAME FROM A SCENE OF AN EXTREMELY BRUTAL MURDER.
WELL, IT WAS SIX HOURS BEFORE, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG IT TAKES FOR SOMEBODY TO BLEED TO DEATH.
WELL, DID YOU HEAR ANYTHING FROM WITHIN THE PREMISES THAT GAVE YOU ANY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THERE MIGHT BE SOMEBODY BLEEDING TO DEATH INSIDE THE PREMISES?
YES. FROM ALL INDICATIONS, MR. SIMPSON WAS NOT ON A SCHEDULED TRIP, AND THERE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A LIVE-IN MAID THERE ALL THE TIME. NOBODY ANSWERED THE INTERCOM. NOBODY ANSWERED THE PHONE.
NO. THE TOTALITY OF EVERYTHING THAT WE HAD SEEN SINCE I ARRIVED AT THE SCENE AT 0210 HOURS ON BUNDY. THAT AND INCLUDING EVERYTHING THAT I OBSERVED, WE DISCUSSED -- AND EVERYTHING WE ATTEMPTED TO DO, WE HAD A CROSSROADS; WE HAD AN EMERGENCY SITUATION, AND WE HAD EXHAUSTED ALL ATTEMPTS TO CONTACT SOMEBODY INSIDE, AND WE COULD NOT ALLOW SOMEBODY TO DIE WHILE WE STOOD OUTSIDE. WE MADE A DECISION, AND THE TOTALITY OF --
EXCUSE ME. OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. COULD THE WITNESS BE ALLOWED TO FINISH HIS ANSWER?
THE LAST PART OF MY SENTENCE WAS THE TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES LENT US MORE THAN JUST A BELIEF BUT AN OBLIGATION TO DO SOMETHING AT THAT POINT.
OKAY. AND THE TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES WAS, NO ONE WAS ANSWERING THE DOOR OR THE RING AT THE GATE. AND YOU SAW A ONE-QUARTER INCH STAIN THAT APPEARED TO BE -- TO YOU TO BE BLOOD ON THE DOOR AND ON THE DOORJAMB AT THE BOTTOM OF THE DOOR; IS THAT CORRECT?
NO. THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS YOU LEFT OUT. THE SHOVEL, THE PLASTIC, THE WAY THE VEHICLE WAS PARKED, THE CONNECTION TO THE VICTIM ON BUNDY. THE BLOOD ON THIS VEHICLE. TO BE VERY TRUTHFUL, WE WERE CONCERNED FOR MR. SIMPSON MORE THAN WE THOUGHT HE WAS A SUSPECT. WE DID NOT KNOW MANY THINGS AT THIS TIME. WE HAD TO GET ONTO THAT LOCATION TO FIND OUT IF HE WAS INJURED OR IF HE WAS NOT HOME, OR IF THERE WAS ANY CIRCUMSTANCE AT THAT LOCATION THAT WE COULD ASSIST TO HELP SOMEBODY.
ALL RIGHT. NOW DID YOU AT ANY TIME AT THIS POINT SUGGEST GETTING A SEARCH WARRANT BEFORE YOU ENTERED THE PREMISES?
OH, I THINK WE HAD PLENTY OF PROBABLE CAUSE IF WE WANTED TO WRITE A SEARCH WARRANT AT THAT POINT TO AMPLE. I THINK THE PROBLEM --
KEY QUOTEDO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE TOTALITY OF CIRCUMSTANCES THAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING GAVE YOU PROBABLE CAUSE FOR A SEARCH WARRANT?
NOW ISN'T THERE A PROCEDURE AVAILABLE IN CALIFORNIA WHERE YOU CAN SIMPLY TELEPHONE AND HAVE A SEARCH WARRANT ISSUED TELEPHONICALLY?
YES. IT IS A TWO-ARM HYDRAULIC GATE WITH A LATCH THERE. YOU JUST FLIP THE LATCH, AND IT COLLAPSES THE HINGE, AND YOU OPEN THE GATE.
YES, MOMENTARILY, LET THEM IN, PUT IT BACK, FLIP THE SWITCH BACK. IT IS NOW IN OPERATION ONCE AGAIN.
I BELIEVE -- I AM NOT SURE ON THAT. IT COULD HAVE BEEN DETECTIVE VANNATTER OR DETECTIVE PHILLIPS. I AM NOT SURE WHICH DID.
YES, JUST -- THIS IS THE FRONT DOOR. THERE IS A WALKWAY. YOU LEAVE THE WALKWAY AND GO NORTH, AND THEN THERE IS AN EASTERLY STONE PATH THAT LEADS AROUND TO THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE ONTO A PATIO AREA. AND THE POOL IS DIRECTLY TO YOUR EAST.
AT THE TIME THERE WAS NO RESPONSE TO THE KNOCK, DID ANY OF THE DETECTIVES INDICATE AN INTENTION TO SECURE THE PREMISES?
WELL, MR. -- DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WENT UP TO THE DOOR, LOOKED INSIDE THE GLASS DOOR WITH LOUVERS. LOUVERS WERE OPENED. WE SAW A MAN LYING ON THE BED, AND HE KNOCKED ON THE DOOR.
I CAN'T REALLY REMEMBER EXACTLY. I BELIEVE HE HAD A T-SHIRT ON, AND I BELIEVE HE MIGHT HAVE HAD SWEAT PANTS OR SOME KIND OF LOOSE FITTING TROUSERS; I AM NOT POSITIVE.
I BELIEVE TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE HE TOLD HIM THAT -- ASKED HIM IF THERE WAS ANYBODY IN THE MAIN HOUSE. THERE WAS AN EMERGENCY; THEY HAD TO KNOW IF ANYBODY WAS HOME AND IF THEY WERE -- IF THEY WERE OKAY, SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.
IF HE DID, I DID NOT HEAR IT AT THAT TIME. I WAS STANDING A LITTLE BIT BACK. I BELIEVE I WAS AT THE REAR OF THE GROUP.
WELL, HE HAD JUST BEEN AWAKENED UP. IT WAS A QUARTER TO 6:00 IN THE MORNING. HIS EYES WERE BLOODSHOT. HIS HAIR WAS MESSED UP. HE LOOKED LIKE I LOOK LIKE WHEN I WAKE UP; BAD, YOU KNOW.
I ASKED HIM IF I COULD LOOK AROUND. I OPENED THE CLOSETS -- THEY WERE TALL CLOSETS, VERY LARGE CLOSETS, ALMOST AS LARGE AS THE PANELS ON THE COURTROOM.
I DON'T RECALL IF I SAID I WAS LOOKING TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANYBODY ELSE THERE. I DON'T RECALL THAT. I LOOKED IN THE BATHROOM AND THE CLOSETS AND THEN RETURNED TO MR. KAELIN.
OH, ADDITIONAL PEOPLE THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN SECRETING THEMSELVES IN A HIDING PLACE, OR IT COULD BE A VICTIM.
WAS THERE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT YOU HAD OBSERVED BEFORE YOU ENTERED THE PREMISES THAT LED YOU TO BELIEVE THERE MIGHT BE A VICTIM OR A SUSPECT IN MR. KAELIN'S CLOSET?
WELL, I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE SOMEBODY THAT WAS BLEEDING WOULD BE. BUT THAT CLOSET AND HIS BATHROOM AND HIS SHOWER WERE DEFINITELY LARGE ENOUGH TO CONCEAL A PERSON.
WELL, DID YOU BELIEVE THAT MR. KAELIN MIGHT HAVE BEEN A SUSPECT IN THE HOMICIDE THAT YOU WERE INVESTIGATING?
AS I SAID, I DIDN'T KNOW MR. KAELIN. HE WASN'T HANDCUFFED. I SPOKE WITH HIM, AND AS FAR AS I KNEW -- I JUST DIDN'T KNOW HIM. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HIS POSITION WAS AT THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS; I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HIS ASSOCIATION WITH MR. SIMPSON WAS. I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HIM.
WELL, BEFORE YOU LOOKED IN HIS CLOSET, DID HE, IN ANY MANNER, INDICATE THAT ANYTHING UNUSUAL HAD HAPPENED ON THE PREMISES?
I ASKED HIM IF I COULD -- "ARE THESE THE CLOTHES YOU WORE LAST NIGHT?" HE SAID, "YES." I SAID, "DO YOU MIND?" AND HE SAID NO. I AM JUST LOOKING TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANY TEARING, STAINS. SAME WITH THE SHOES.
DID YOU LOOK AT THE PATTERN OF THE SOLES TO SEE IF THEY MATCHED THE SOLES OF THE FOOTPRINTS YOU HAD OBSERVED AT THE SCENE ON BUNDY?
THEY LOOKED LIKE THEY WERE CLOSE, BUT THEY LOOKED A LITTLE TOO SMALL, AND THEY DIDN'T LOOK LIKE THE EXACT PATTERN. THERE WAS NO DEBRIS ON THEM. THERE WAS NO -- ANY TYPE OF DRIED LIQUID. THEY LOOKED VERY CLEAN.
HE TOLD DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, VANNATTER AND LANG PROCEEDED TO THAT BUNGALOW.
SO YOU REMAINED IN MR. KAELIN'S ROOM WHILE THE OTHER THREE DETECTIVES WENT IMMEDIATELY TO ARNELLE SIMPSON'S ROOM?
ARNELLE'S IS THE FURTHEST MOST BUNGALOW, AND IT IS ALMOST DIRECTLY IN THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF THE PROPERTY. IT IS THE LAST ROOM THAT IS -- THE FRONT DOOR FACES NORTH.
DID YOU FOLLOW ALONG? DID YOU GO WITH THEM WHEN THEY WENT AROUND TO THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE?
SO THE THREE DETECTIVES AND ARNELLE SIMPSON WALKED, RETRACING THE PATH YOU HAD JUST FOLLOWED FROM THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE TO GO BACK TO THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE; IS THAT CORRECT?
I DIDN'T SEE WHICH WAY THEY WENT. I DIDN'T KNOW IF THEY ENTERED THE BACK DOOR OR THE FRONT DOOR.
I BELIEVE THE BACK DOOR THAT LEADS INTO THE PATIO IN THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF THE MAIN HOUSE, I BELIEVE THAT WAS OPENED; I DON'T KNOW BY WHO.
ALL RIGHT. NOW THE ROUTE THAT YOU WOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THEN TO GO FROM MR. KAELIN'S ROOM INTO THE HOUSE WOULD HAVE BEEN UP THESE STAIRS AND THROUGH THE BILLIARD ROOM AND INTO THE FAMILY ROOM; IS THAT CORRECT?
NO. THIS STAIRWAY HERE IS ENCLOSED. THIS IS AN OFFICE WITH A DOOR FROM KATO'S ROOM. THIS IS AN OFFICE WITH A DESK THAT GOES UP AGAINST THIS WINDOW. THIS DOOR LEADS TO A STAIRWAY AND THE BILLIARD ROOM. WE DIDN'T GO THAT WAY. WE WENT OUT INTO THE PATIO, UP THESE STAIRS, AND INTO THE -- I BELIEVE THERE IS A DOOR RIGHT WHERE -- I BELIEVE THIS IS A TREE OR SOMETHING -- RIGHT INTO HERE. AND THIS WOULD BE JUST A LITTLE NORTH OF THE BILLIARD ROOM (INDICATING). THIS IS THE BAR AREA. THERE ARE SEVERAL TOOLS RIGHT HERE (INDICATING).
OKAY. WELL, DID SOMEBODY COME AND OPEN UP THIS BACK DOOR AND LET YOU IN THEN, INTO THE FAMILY ROOM?
IT WAS OPENED FOR ME. AND I ASSUME THAT THAT IS THE WAY THAT ARNELLE ENTERED THE RESIDENCE. BUT I DID NOT KNOW. IT WAS JUST OPENED.
NO. I SAT MR. KAELIN AT THE BAR AREA, AND I WALKED THROUGH THE FAMILY ROOM TO THE KITCHEN. I NOTICED DETECTIVE VANNATTER STANDING IN THE KITCHEN, I BELIEVE. HE COULD HAVE BEEN IN THE HALL. I SAID, "PHIL, THAT WHITE MALE IN THE BUNGALOW SITTING AT THE BAR, GO TALK TO HIM."
NO. I JUST WALKED BY THE HALL AND I TOLD PHIL, I SAID, "GO TALK TO MR. KAELIN. HE IS AT THE BAR."
NOT AT ALL. I WAS RESPONDING TO A COMMENT THAT MR. KAELIN MADE, AND I WENT DIRECTLY TO CHECK OUT EXACTLY WHAT HE HEARD.
SO YOUR PURPOSE THEN, AFTER YOU SPOKE TO MR. KAELIN, WAS SIMPLY, GO CHECK OUT WHAT HE HAD TOLD YOU?
WELL, NOT EVERYTHING. HE TALKED ABOUT THE LIMO DRIVER ARRIVING. AND JUST PRIOR TO THAT, HE TALKED ABOUT A CRASHING SOUND ON HIS WALL AT ABOUT A QUARTER TO 11:00. HE WENT OUT TO INVESTIGATE THAT, HE IS TELLING ME, AND HE SEES THE LIMO, AND I STOPPED HIM RIGHT THERE AND I SAID, "WOULD YOU COME WITH ME? JUST SIT HERE. SOMEBODY IS GOING TO TALK TO YOU IN A MINUTE." I IMMEDIATELY RESPONDED TO WHERE I THOUGHT THAT CRASHING SOUND HIT THE OTHER SIDE OF HIS WALL.
SO YOUR ONLY PURPOSE THEN IN LEAVING THE HOUSE AT THAT POINT WAS TO INVESTIGATE THE INFORMATION THAT MR. KAELIN HAD GIVEN YOU ABOUT A CRASHING SOUND OUTSIDE HIS WALL?
AND WHAT TIME WAS IT NOW WHEN YOU LEFT THE HOUSE TO GO INVESTIGATE WHERE THAT HAD HAPPENED?
IT COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE AFTER 6:00. I AM NOT EXACTLY POSITIVE, YES. WE HADN'T BEEN ON THE PREMISES, NO. WE HAD BEEN OUTSIDE FOR THIRTY TO FORTY MINUTES. WE WERE -- WE ARRIVED AT PROBABLY 5:10. IT WAS PROBABLY 5:40 OR 5:45, MAYBE AS LATE AS 5:50 WHEN WE ENTERED. A COUPLE MINUTES AT THE FRONT DOOR, A FEW MINUTES TO TALK TO MR. KAELIN. IT COULD HAVE BEEN AS LATE AS 6:15.
WELL, THE -- IT WAS BECOMING LIGHT. ON THE PATHWAY IN THE SOUTH PART OF THE BORDER OF THE PROPERTY WAS OVERGROWN WITH TREES. AND THE ROOF IN THE BUILDING SHADOWED MUCH OF IT. SO IT WAS DEEPLY SHADOWED IN THERE. NOT MUCH LIGHT COULD GET TO IT; I DOUBT EVEN ON A SUNNY DAY.
AND YOU TOOK THAT FLASHLIGHT AND WENT THEN TO THE CORNER OF THE GARAGE AND STARTED DOWN ALONG THE NARROW PATHWAY AT THE REAR OF THE HOUSE?
YES. THIS WAS A SMALL FLASHLIGHT, THOUGH. I COULDN'T SEE MUCH FARTHER THAN A FEW FEET IN FRONT OF ME WITH THE FLASHLIGHT. IT WAS JUST A SMALL FIVE-INCH LONG FLASHLIGHT FOR CLOSE WORK.
FROM MR. KAELIN'S STATEMENTS, IT SOUNDED LIKE POSSIBLY SOMEBODY COLLAPSED AGAINST THE WALL IN THE REAR, YES. THAT'S WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR.
NOW HOW FAR DID YOU HAVE TO GO DOWN THAT NARROW WALKWAY BEFORE YOU COULD SEE TO THE END OF THE HOUSE?
AS FAR AS SEEING TO THE END OF THE HOUSE, IT WAS A VERY NARROW PATH, A COUPLE FEET WIDE. WHEN I STARTED HERE, IT SEEMED TO SLANT DOWN A LITTLE BIT. SO OBVIOUSLY IT IS GOING TO SEEM SHORTER THAN IT IS. YOU GET DOWN TO THIS AREA IN HERE (INDICATING). I PROBABLY WENT -- FROM WHERE THE MAID'S QUARTERS ARE, I WOULD JUST APPROXIMATE 40 TO 50 FEET, TO ABOUT THE MIDDLE OF KATO'S ROOM'S WALL, THE SOUTH WALL, THE EXTERIOR OF THAT.
WELL, ISN'T THERE A GATE AT APPROXIMATELY THIS LOCATION WHERE THE MAID'S QUARTERS ARE AND THE CORNER STARTS UP AGAIN? CAN YOU SEE WHERE I AM POINTING HERE?
WAS THERE A GATE CLOSER TO THE AREA WHERE YOU ENTERED THAT WALKWAY BY THE FRONT OF THE GARAGE?
ONCE AGAIN, I BELIEVE THERE COULD HAVE BEEN A GATE THERE. I BELIEVE IT WAS BROKEN. I DID NOT HAVE TO OPEN ANY GATES, GO OVER ANY GATES. IT WAS COMPLETELY --
OBJECTION. AGAIN, YOUR HONOR, COUNSEL IS CUTTING OFF THE WITNESS' ANSWER. I WOULD LIKE FOR HIM TO BE ALLOWED TO COMPLETE IT.
YES, MA'AM. THERE WAS NO OBSTRUCTIONS. I HAD COMPLETE ABILITY TO JUST WALK FREELY DOWN THE PATH.
AND HOW FAR WERE YOU DOWN THE PATH BEFORE YOU COULD SEE TO THE END OF THE HOUSE? IF YOU COULD JUST INDICATE THAT, PERHAPS WRITE YOUR INITIALS WHERE YOU WERE STANDING WHERE YOU COULD SEE TO THE END OF THE HOUSE.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE END OF THE HOUSE? THE END TO THE BUNGALOWS? ALL THE WAY TO THE END?
I COULD PROBABLY SEE PROBABLY ABOUT WHERE THE MAID'S QUARTERS WERE. IT SEEMS LIKE THIS AREA HERE WAS SLIGHTLY ELEVATED.
WE HAVE A BLOWN-UP PHOTOGRAPH HERE THAT PICTURES THIS AREA ALONG THE REAR PERIMETER OF THE HOUSE. IS THAT AN ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF WHAT YOU SAW?
EXCEPT FOR ONE THING. THE LIGHTING CONDITIONS ARE MUCH BETTER AT THIS TIME OF THIS PHOTOGRAPH.
ALL RIGHT. NOW FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT, COULD YOU ASCERTAIN WHETHER THERE WERE ANY BODIES OR PERSONS ALONG THAT WALKWAY?
WELL, THE WALKWAY DIDN'T APPEAR TO END JUST WITH THE NARROWNESS OF THE WALKWAY. IT SEEMED TO GO SOMEWHERE AT THE END OF THE BUILDING. I WAS LOOKING DOWN THE WALKWAY TOWARDS WHERE MR. KATO OR KATO'S WALL WAS. WHEN I GOT TO WITHIN SEVERAL FEET OF HIS WALL, AND I ESTIMATED FROM THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE BUILDINGS ABOUT WHERE HIS WALL WOULD BE, I LOOKED DOWN AND I SAW A DARK OBJECT. AND AS I GOT CLOSER, I SHINED MY FLASHLIGHT ON IT, AND I COULD SEE IT WAS A GLOVE.
YES. FINDING THE GLOVE AND THE CONDITION OF IT EVEN ALERTED ME MORE THAT SOMEONE WITHIN HOURS HAD LEFT THAT GLOVE THERE. GOING EAST OR WEST, SOMEONE LEFT THAT GLOVE. AND I CONTINUED EAST, THINKING THAT THERE COULD BE A POSSIBLE VICTIM OR NOW SUSPECT TO THE REAR.
ALL RIGHT. BUT YOU ONLY CONTINUED AS FAR AS YOU COULD GO WITHOUT ENCOUNTERING SPIDER WEBS; IS THAT CORRECT?
OH NO. I CONTINUED IT COMPLETELY, ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE REAR. IT WAS LIKE A GARDENING AREA, LIKE A POTTING AREA; I COULDN'T DESCRIBE IT ANY OTHER WAY. IT APPEARED THAT PLANTS WERE GROWING THERE TO BE UPROOTED AND PLANTED ELSEWHERE, A LARGE SQUARE AREA, ABOUT 25 FOOT SQUARE. BUT I WAS RUNNING INTO SPIDER WEBS THE WHOLE DISTANCE, BUT I STILL CHECKED OUT THE AREA. I WAS NOT CRAWLING, SO I DID NOT KNOW WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCE -- OR WHOEVER LEFT THE GLOVE, WHAT THEIR DILEMMA WAS AT THAT POINT.
DID YOU NOTICE ANY DISTURBANCE IN THE PATTERN OF THE LEAVES OR DEBRIS THAT YOU SAW ON THE PATHWAY?
NOT THAT I COULD REALLY TELL WHAT WAS ON THE PATHWAY. JUST LEAVES THAT HAVE DROPPED ONTO THE PATHWAY AND DEBRIS. NOTHING UNUSUAL OTHER THAN THE GLOVE.
AS I SAID, THE LEAVES COVERED MOST OF THE WALKWAY. OF COURSE, I DID LOOK BOTH DIRECTIONS, BUT I DID NOT FIND ANY, NO.
THERE WAS NOTHING TO INDICATE TO YOU BY THE DISTURBANCE OF THE LEAVES OR ANY PATTERNS THAT YOU OBSERVED THAT YOU THOUGHT WERE OF ANY EVIDENTIARY SIGNIFICANCE?
WELL, I COULDN'T FIND ANY. I SPENT ABOUT 15 MINUTES MAKING SURE THAT THERE WAS NO VICTIM OR SUSPECT OR ANY OTHER PERSON TO THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE. I MADE SURE THAT I WALKED BACK CAREFULLY, BUT I DID NOT OBSERVE NONE, NO.
AND AT THAT POINT, YOU ASKED THE OTHER DETECTIVES TO ACCOMPANY YOU TO LOOK AT THE GLOVE AS WELL?
YES. I CONTACTED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, AND I -- I TOLD HIM, I SAID, "RON, I FOUND A GLOVE ON THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE THAT LOOKS VERY SIMILAR TO THE GLOVE THAT'S AT THE SCENE ON BUNDY."
JUST STANDING THERE, I BELIEVE. I AM NOT POSITIVE ON THAT. HE COULD HAVE BEEN STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE FRONT DOOR.
JUST AS LONG AS IT TOOK FOR ME TO WALK HIM BACK TO THE GLOVE AND SHOW HIM. THEN WE WALKED BACK. HE NOTIFIED DEFENDANT VANNATTER AND LANG.
I RESPECTIVELY WALKED BOTH OF THEM BACK TO OBSERVE THE GLOVE. THEY WALKED BACK TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.
NO. I WALKED EACH ONE OF THEM BACK INDIVIDUALLY, SO THEY DIDN'T DESTROY ANYTHING. THERE WAS NOTHING THAT I FOUND ON THE PATH THAT I COULD SEE WAS OF AN EVIDENTIARY VALUE, BUT I STILL WALKED EACH OF THEM BACK.
I BELIEVE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS NOTIFIED HIM AND DETECTIVE LANG. AND THEY CONTACTED ME OUT IN FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.
NOW WERE YOU THE FIRST PERSON TO OBSERVE WHAT YOU REFERRED TO AS BLOOD DROPS OR BLOOD SPOTS ON THE DRIVEWAY?
AND YOU WERE UNABLE TO COME TO ANY CONCLUSION WHETHER THEY WERE ANIMAL BLOOD OR HUMAN BLOOD?
WELL, THE -- IT IS ALWAYS DIFFICULT TO SEE THEM ON THAT -- THE SIMULATED COBBLESTONE, RED STONE. BUT THE GRAY CONCRETE TO THE REAR OF THE BRONCO WAS FAIRLY EASY TO SEE WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT.
NOW I BELIEVE YOU INDICATED THAT AT SOME POINT A DETERMINATION WAS MADE THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE DECLARED A CRIME SCENE?
I DON'T BELIEVE HE SAID, "THIS IS A CRIME SCENE." THIS WILL BE HANDLED LIKE A CRIME SCENE. IN OTHER WORDS, WE WILL SEAL IT OFF AND CONSIDER IT THE SAME AS WE WOULD IF IT WAS A CRIME SCENE.
IT WAS SHORTLY AFTER I DISCOVERED THE GLOVE AND LED ALL THREE DETECTIVES TO VIEW IT. AND SHORTLY THEREAFTER DETECTIVE VANNATTER SAID, "THIS IS NOW CONSIDERED A CRIME SCENE; WE WILL HANDLE IT AS SUCH."
SO THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WELL BEFORE YOU HAD PERSONALLY OBSERVED ANY SPOTS THAT APPEARED TO BE BLOOD ON THE DRIVEWAY?
NOW ONCE IT WAS DECLARED A CRIME SCENE, THAT MEANS EVERYBODY OFF THE PREMISES EXCEPT THE DETECTIVES?
ALL RIGHT. AND WAS HE TOLD TO AWAIT GOING TO THE STATION AT SOME LOCATION OTHER THAN IN THE HOUSE?
WELL, IT REALLY WASN'T NECESSARY. WE HAD A BLACK AND WHITE UNIT THAT TOOK CONTROL OF THE BRONCO, AND THEN THE RESIDENCE WAS EXTREMELY SECURED ONTO ITSELF. WE DIDN'T FORESEE ANYBODY COMING OVER THE WALLS.
OKAY. SO ALL YOU REALLY NEEDED TO DO THEN TO SECURE THE PREMISES WAS TO HAVE PEOPLE AT THE GATES TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE JUST DIDN'T WANDER IN AND OUT?
AT 7:30, 8:00 O'CLOCK. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN VERY CLOSE IN PROXIMITY TO THE TIME THAT DETECTIVE VANNATTER LEFT THE SCENE TO WRITE A SEARCH WARRANT. MAYBE WITHIN A HALF HOUR; MAYBE A SHORTER PERIOD OF TIME. I LEFT THE SCENE WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TO GO TO THE BUNDY ADDRESS.
NOW DO YOU KEEP A CHRONOLOGY THAT -- AT WHICH PARTICULAR TIMES THAT YOU COME AND GO ARE RECORDED?
AND DID YOU LOG IN OR LOG OUT WHEN YOU LEFT THE ROCKINGHAM SCENE AND RETURNED TO THE BUNDY SCENE?
AT ANY TIME WERE YOU INFORMED THAT ANY OF THE DETECTIVES HAD SUCCEEDED IN LOCATING MR. SIMPSON?
THE SAME MORNING. AND I BELIEVE IT WAS BETWEEN 6:00 OR 7:00 O'CLOCK; MAYBE A LITTLE BEFORE.
I DON'T KNOW, SIR. I DID NOT STAND NEXT TO DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WHEN HE WAS SPEAKING TO HIM, BUT I KNOW HE DID.
PROBABLY ABOUT THE SAME TIME THAT DETECTIVE VANNATTER SAID, "THIS IS NOW A CRIME SCENE," OR SHORTLY THEREAFTER. I HAD NOT BEEN WITH THOSE THREE DETECTIVES FOR SEVERAL MINUTES. AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS USING HIS CELLULAR PHONE TO TRY TO CALL THE RESIDENCE AND THEN CALL THE STATION TO CALL MR. SIMPSON.
Not in my mind.
So what you heard from the premises was silence?
WE COULD NOT ALLOW SOMEBODY TO DIE WHILE WE STOOD OUTSIDE.
OH, I THINK WE HAD PLENTY OF PROBABLE CAUSE IF WE WANTED TO WRITE A SEARCH WARRANT AT THAT POINT TO AMPLE.
RON, I FOUND A GLOVE ON THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE THAT LOOKS VERY SIMILAR TO THE GLOVE THAT'S AT THE SCENE ON BUNDY.