Cross-examination of Brian Kato Kaelin (part 1)

📄 Cross-examination of Brian Kato Kaelin (part 1) — Thursday, March 23, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\23\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-BRIAN-KAT.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 44 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Brian Kato Kaelin Sidebar: defense notes ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Robert Shapiro
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, March 23, 1995 • Utterances: 187

Robert Shapiro cross-examines Kato Kaelin, using him as a vehicle to humanize OJ Simpson — eliciting that OJ was a loving, caring father and showed no jealousy or anger about Nicole dating other men. Shapiro also establishes the casual, informal nature of Kato's living arrangements with Nicole, and surfaces that OJ expressed some discomfort about Kato moving into the Bundy condo before the murders. The examination ends mid-stream as Clark requests a sidebar.

# 1 THE COURT:

MR. SHAPIRO.

# 2 MR. SHAPIRO:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR.

# 3 MS. CLARK:

YOUR HONOR, CAN I MARK THE PHOTOGRAPH 138 -- PEOPLE'S 138-B, THE ONE THAT WAS PRINTED?

# 4 THE COURT:

YES.

# 5 (PEO'S 138-B FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

# 6 MR. SHAPIRO:

GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

# 7 THE JURY:

GOOD MORNING.

# 8

CROSS-EXAMINATION

# 9

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 10 Q:

GOOD MORNING, KAELIN.

# 11 A:

GOOD MORNING.

# 12 Q:

HOW ARE YOU FEELING TODAY?

# 13 A:

BETTER.

# 14 Q:

BETTER THAN WHEN?

# 15 A:

TWO DAYS AGO.

# 16 Q:

GOOD. I WANT TO START OUT BY DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE PHONE CALL AT 9:37 WHERE YOU WERE TALKING TO YOUR FRIEND TOM O'BRIEN.

# 17 A:

YES.

# 18 Q:

HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN TOM O'BRIEN?

# 19 A:

SINCE FOURTH GRADE.

# 20 Q:

DO YOU CONSIDER HIM ONE OF YOUR BEST FRIENDS?

# 21 A:

YES.

# 22 Q:

AND IS HE THE PERSON WHO CAME AND HELPED YOU MOVE YOUR PROPERTY OUT OF THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE?

# 23 A:

YES.

# 24 Q:

AND IS HE A PERSON THAT YOU STILL MAINTAIN A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH?

# 25 A:

YES.

# 26 Q:

AND HAVE YOU TALKED TO HIM ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY IN THIS CASE?

# 27 A:

NO.

# 28 Q:

HAVE YOU TALKED TO HIM ABOUT BEING A WITNESS IN THIS CASE?

# 29 A:

ABOUT ME BEING A WITNESS?

# 30 Q:

YEAH.

# 31 A:

YEAH, HE KNEW I WAS A WITNESS, YES.

# 32 Q:

WHAT DOES HE DO FOR A LIVING?

# 33 A:

HE WAS -- RIGHT NOW WHAT DOES HE DO?

# 34 Q:

WHAT WAS HE DOING THEN?

# 35 A:

HE WAS A D.A. IN SAN DIEGO.

# 36 Q:

AND HOW LONG WAS HE A D.A. IN SAN DIEGO?

# 37 A:

HE WAS -- I THINK HE HAD JUST STARTED. MAYBE -- MAYBE A YEAR. I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT -- I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG.

# 38 Q:

DID HE GIVE YOU ANY ADVICE ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY, ABOUT TELLING THE TRUTH?

# 39 A:

NO. I MEAN TELL THE TRUTH. HE DIDN'T SAY -- I MEAN, HE KNOWS I ALWAYS TELL THE TOOTH.

KEY QUOTE

# 40 Q:

NOW, YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON BEGAN IN EARLY 1992?

# 41 A:

YES.

# 42 Q:

AND CONTINUED ON SOME BASIS UNTIL HER DEATH IN 1994?

# 43 A:

YES.

# 44 Q:

WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT AS A FRIENDLY RELATIONSHIP?

# 45 A:

YES.

# 46 Q:

WAS SHE SOMEBODY YOU CARED FOR?

# 47 A:

YES.

# 48 Q:

WAS -- WERE HER CHILDREN AND O.J.'S CHILDREN CHILDREN THAT YOU CARED FOR?

# 49 A:

YES.

# 50 Q:

NOT IN A SENSE THAT YOU WERE THEIR CARETAKER, BUT THAT YOU HAD FEELINGS FOR THEM?

# 51 A:

YES.

# 52 Q:

AND WERE YOU IN A POSITION TO JUDGE HOW O.J. SIMPSON REACTED TOWARDS HIS CHILDREN?

# 53 A:

TO --

# 54 Q:

JUSTIN AND SYDNEY?

# 55 A:

TO DO WHAT, THOUGH?

# 56 Q:

HOW O.J. SIMPSON WAS TOWARDS HIS CHILDREN?

# 57 A:

OH, GOOD, VERY GOOD.

KEY QUOTE

# 58 Q:

WAS HE A LOVING FATHER?

# 59 A:

YES.

# 60 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, RELEVANCE.

# 61 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 62 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: IS HE A CARING FATHER?

# 63 A:

YES.

# 64 Q:

WOULD YOU SAY THE SAME FOR NICOLE AS A MOTHER?

# 65 A:

YES.

# 66 Q:

AND THAT DURING THE PERIOD OF TIME WHEN YOU FIRST MET NICOLE, SHE WAS DIVORCED FROM O.J. SIMPSON?

# 67 A:

YES.

# 68 Q:

AND SHE WAS DATING OTHER MEN?

# 69 A:

YES.

# 70 Q:

WAS THAT A FREQUENT OCCURRENCE, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?

# 71 MS. CLARK:

YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION.

# 72 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 73 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

SHE WOULD GO OUT. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS DATING, YOU KNOW, MEN, LIKE I HAVE A DATE TONIGHT, THAT SORT OF THING. SHE WOULD GO OUT WITH HER FRIENDS.

# 74 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND WOULD O.J. COME OVER TO THE GRETNA GREEN HOUSE AND VISIT THE CHILDREN?

# 75 A:

YES.

# 76 Q:

AND WAS HE AWARE THAT SHE WAS DATING OTHER MEN?

# 77 A:

YES.

# 78 Q:

AND DID HE EVER VOICE ANY CONCERNS ABOUT THAT?

# 79 A:

NO.

# 80 Q:

DID HE EVER SHOW ANY ANGER OR UPSET -- BEING UPSET AT THE FACT THAT SHE WAS DATING OTHER MEN?

# 81 A:

NO.

# 82 Q:

AND DID HE EVER INDICATE AT ALL -- DID HE KNOW WHERE YOU WERE LIVING WHEN YOU WERE AT GRETNA GREEN?

# 83 A:

YES.

# 84 Q:

HE KNEW YOU WERE IN A GUEST HOUSE?

# 85 A:

YES.

# 86 Q:

AND SO THE JURY UNDERSTANDS US, THIS IS A PART THAT IS TOTALLY SEPARATE FROM THE MAIN HOUSE?

# 87 A:

THE GRETNA GREEN, YES, SEPARATE.

# 88 Q:

WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE FACILITY THERE?

# 89 A:

OF THE GUEST HOUSE?

# 90 Q:

YES.

# 91 A:

OKAY. THE GRETNA GREEN HOUSE IS THE HOUSE IN FRONT, AND THEN THERE IS TEN FEET, YOU WALK, THERE IS A GUEST HOUSE WITH BEDROOM, BATHROOM AND THAT IS IT.

# 92 Q:

WHAT WOULD YOU DO FOR MEALS?

# 93 A:

EITHER GO OUT OR NICOLE, THE KIDS, IT WAS -- EVERYBODY WAS KIND OF LIKE A FAMILY, JUST EAT THERE SOMETIMES OR GO OUT.

# 94 Q:

YOU WOULD ALWAYS SLEEP IN YOUR QUARTERS, THOUGH, WOULD YOU NOT?

# 95 A:

YES.

# 96 Q:

AND IT WAS CLEAR TO O.J. THAT YOU DID NOT HAVE ANY TYPE OF ROMANTIC INVOLVEMENT WITH NICOLE, WASN'T IT?

# 97 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, SPECULATION.

# 98 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 99 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU EVER DISCUSS WITH O.J. WHAT YOUR RELATIONSHIP WAS WITH NICOLE?

# 100 A:

NO.

# 101 Q:

WAS IT EVER A CONCERN OF HIS?

# 102 A:

NO.

# 103 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, SPECULATION.

# 104 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE EVER ASK YOU?

# 105 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION.

# 106 THE COURT:

HOLD ON.

# 107 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 108 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE EVER ASK YOU?

# 109 MS. CLARK:

MOTION TO STRIKE.

# 110 THE COURT:

NO. STAND, PLEASE.

# 111 MS. CLARK:

I'M SORRY. MOTION TO STRIKE.

# 112 THE COURT:

DENIED.

# 113 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE EVER ASK YOU WHAT YOUR RELATIONSHIP WAS WITH NICOLE?

# 114 A:

NO.

# 115 Q:

NEVER SEEMED TO HAVE ANY CONCERN ABOUT THAT, DID HE?

# 116 A:

NO.

# 117 Q:

DID HE EVER HAVE ANY DISCOMFORT ABOUT YOU BEING AROUND NICOLE?

# 118 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. SPECULATING, YOUR HONOR.

# 119 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 120 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE EVER DEMONSTRATE ANY DISCOMFORT ABOUT YOU BEING AROUND NICOLE?

# 121 A:

NO.

# 122 Q:

DID HE EVER SHOW ANY DEMONSTRATION OF DISSATISFACTION WITH YOU BEING AROUND HIS CHILDREN?

# 123 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, VAGUE.

# 124 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 125 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

NO.

# 126 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND YOU MOVED -- YOU GOT PERMISSION, ACTUALLY, TO MOVE INTO THE GUEST HOUSE REALLY WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING NICOLE; ISN'T THAT TRUE?

# 127 A:

YES.

# 128 Q:

YOU WERE VIRTUALLY A STRANGER IN HER LIFE?

# 129 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 130 THE COURT:

VAGUE. CONCLUSION, YES.

# 131 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: YOU HAD MET HER JUST ON TWO OCCASIONS?

# 132 A:

IN ASPEN FOR THAT WEEK AND THEN UP IN -- IN L.A., YES.

# 133 Q:

THOSE WERE REALLY IN A PARTY TYPE ATMOSPHERE?

# 134 A:

YES.

# 135 Q:

SHE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT YOU OR YOUR BACKGROUND?

# 136 A:

NO.

# 137 Q:

AND DURING THE FIRST TWO MONTHS THAT YOU WERE THERE, DID YOU -- YOU DIDN'T PAY ANY RENT TO HER, DID YOU?

# 138 A:

NO. IT WAS SITTING -- SHE NEVER ASKED FOR ANYTHING.

KEY QUOTE

# 139 Q:

SO YOU NEVER REALLY HAD ANY FORMAL ARRANGEMENTS WITH NICOLE, DID YOU?

# 140 A:

NOT A RENTAL AGREEMENT, NO.

KEY QUOTE

# 141 Q:

YOU NEVER HAD ANY FORMAL ARRANGEMENTS AS TO WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO DO TO HELP OUT AROUND THE HOUSE AT GRETNA GREEN?

# 142 A:

WHATEVER SHE SAID, SOMETHING I WOULD DO.

# 143 Q:

BUT THERE WAS NO --

# 144 A:

IT WASN'T LIKE, "KATO, I HAVE TO DO THIS."

# 145 Q:

NO FORMAL UNDERSTANDING?

# 146 A:

RIGHT.

# 147 Q:

YOU WERE A NICE GUY AND IF SOMETHING NEEDED TO BE DONE, YOU WERE MORE THAN WILLING TO DO IT?

# 148 A:

YES.

# 149 Q:

SHE WAS A NICE WOMAN AND SHE WAS ALLOWING YOU TO STAY THERE?

# 150 A:

YES.

# 151 Q:

AND YOU WERE FRIENDS?

# 152 A:

YES.

# 153 Q:

AND AT SOME POINT IN TIME DID YOU HAVE SOME DISAGREEMENTS WITH NICOLE WHILE YOU WERE AT GRETNA GREEN?

# 154 A:

AT -- NO.

# 155 Q:

AT SOME POINT IN TIME DID SHE TELL YOU SHE WAS MOVING?

# 156 A:

YES.

# 157 Q:

AND DID SHE TELL YOU YOU WOULD HAVE TO FIND ANOTHER PLACE?

# 158 A:

YES, AT ONE TIME.

# 159 Q:

AND DID YOU START TO LOOK FOR ANOTHER PLACE?

# 160 A:

YES.

# 161 Q:

AND THEN SHE FOUND THE PLACE ON BUNDY?

# 162 A:

NO. THERE IS --

# 163 Q:

GO AHEAD. IF I'M MISTAKEN, TELL ME.

# 164 A:

OH, THEN ANOTHER TIME THEN SHE WANTED TO -- THERE WAS DIFFERENT TIMES AND MONTHS WHERE SHE WANTED TO -- ME TO MOVE IN AGAIN WHEN SHE WROTE ME A LITTLE LETTER AND SAID THERE WAS ANOTHER HOUSE THAT SHE LOOKED AT.

# 165 Q:

IT WAS KIND OF BACK AND FORTH, WASN'T IT, AS TO WHETHER YOU WERE GOING TO GO WITH HER OR NOT GO WITH HER?

# 166 A:

AT ONE POINT, YES.

# 167 Q:

SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHERE SHE WAS GOING, DID SHE?

# 168 A:

YES.

# 169 Q:

SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT SHE WAS GOING TO BE DOING WITH HER LIFE?

# 170 A:

YES.

# 171 Q:

SHE SUGGESTED THAT, KATO, YOU BETTER LOOK OUT FOR YOURSELF?

# 172 A:

YES.

# 173 Q:

AND THAT IS WHAT YOU WERE DOING?

# 174 A:

YES.

# 175 Q:

NOW, WHEN IT CAME TIME TO BE INVITED TO MOVE INTO BUNDY, THAT WAS ABOUT JANUARY OF 1994?

# 176 A:

YES.

# 177 Q:

AND AT THAT TIME DID O.J. TELL YOU THAT HE HAD HAD A DISCUSSION WITH NICOLE ABOUT YOU LIVING IN A CONDOMINIUM, AS OPPOSED TO LIVING IN A GUEST HOUSE?

# 178 A:

YES.

# 179 Q:

AND DID HE TELL YOU THAT HE WAS SOMEWHAT UNCOMFORTABLE AND EXPRESSED THAT TO NICOLE?

KEY QUOTE

# 180 A:

YES.

# 181 Q:

AND DID HE TELL YOU THAT NICOLE SAID, WELL, WHY DON'T YOU DISCUSS IT WITH KATO?

# 182 A:

YES.

# 183 Q:

AND HE DID DISCUSS THAT WITH YOU, DIDN'T HE?

# 184 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 185 THE COURT:

WHAT IS THE OBJECTION?

# 186 MS. CLARK:

I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH.

# 187 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Kato Kaelin

TELL THE TRUTH. HE DIDN'T SAY -- I MEAN, HE KNOWS I ALWAYS TELL THE TOOTH.

Kato's verbal slip ('tooth' for 'truth') while trying to vouch for his own honesty — characteristic Kato moment, and slightly undermines the very point he's making.

Kato Kaelin

OH, GOOD, VERY GOOD.

Kato's characterization of how OJ was toward his children, setting up the defense's portrait of a devoted father with no violent tendencies toward his family.

Kato Kaelin

NO.

Repeated answer to Shapiro's string of questions about whether OJ ever showed anger, discomfort, or concern about Nicole dating other men — the accumulated 'no's build a defense narrative of non-jealousy.

Robert Shapiro

AND DID HE TELL YOU THAT HE WAS SOMEWHAT UNCOMFORTABLE AND EXPRESSED THAT TO NICOLE?

Shapiro reveals that OJ had discomfort about Kato moving into the Bundy condo — a potentially double-edged piece of information that Clark immediately moved to sidebar on.

Evidence (1)

People's 138-B

Photograph (printed version), marked for identification at Clark's request before cross began

marked for identification

Notable Exchanges (3)

Robert Shapiro•Kato Kaelin

Shapiro walks Kato through a series of questions establishing that OJ never showed jealousy, anger, or concern about Nicole dating other men while Kato was living at Gretna Green — each answered flatly 'No' by Kato.

strategic

Robert Shapiro•Kato Kaelin

Shapiro elicits that OJ expressed discomfort to Nicole about Kato moving into the Bundy condo, and that Nicole deflected by saying OJ should talk to Kato directly — prompting a Clark sidebar request before Kato could elaborate.

revealing

Robert Shapiro•Kato Kaelin

Shapiro probes Kato's relationship with Tom O'Brien — a San Diego DA and childhood friend — implying O'Brien may have coached Kato on testimony, but Kato deflects saying he only got generic 'tell the truth' advice.

strategic

Light Moments (1)

Kato Kaelin

Kato says 'I ALWAYS TELL THE TOOTH' instead of 'tell the truth' while trying to assert his honesty.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Kato Kaelin

bias / coaching implication

Shapiro probes Kato's friendship with Tom O'Brien, a San Diego DA, suggesting O'Brien may have influenced Kato's testimony — though Kato denies any substantive coaching.

Witness Demeanor

Generally cooperative and easygoing; some hesitation when answering questions about Nicole's social life ('I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS DATING, YOU KNOW, MEN, LIKE I HAVE A DATE TONIGHT')

Occasionally corrects Shapiro's timeline characterizations ('NO. THERE IS --... OH, THEN ANOTHER TIME')

Objections

9 objections (4 sustained, 4 overruled)

Proceeding 5408 • 187 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103