Direct examination of Brian Kato Kaelin

📄 Direct examination of Brian Kato Kaelin — Thursday, March 23, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\23\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-BRIAN-KA.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 44 of 167

◀ Morning session opening Cross-examination of Brian Kato Kaelin (part 1) ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, March 23, 1995 • Utterances: 530

Marcia Clark concluded her direct examination of Kato Kaelin, covering the McDonald's trip details (the unusual choice of a farther location, the $20 bill that was never broken for skycap change), OJ Simpson's jealousy-driven pressure to keep Kaelin away from Nicole at Bundy, the black knapsack on the driveway, blood drop markers, and OJ's bandaged hand on June 13th. The examination ended with a devastating rhythmic sequence establishing that Kaelin had no idea where Simpson was between 9:35 PM and 10:50 PM on the night of the murders.

# 1 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 2 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

# 3 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. PLEASE BE SEATED. GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

# 4 THE JURY:

GOOD MORNING.

# 5 THE COURT:

MR. KAELIN, WOULD YOU PLEASE RESUME THE WITNESS STAND, PLEASE.

BRIAN KATO KAELIN, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE EVENING ADJOURNMENT, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:

# 6 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR TRIAL JURY. MR. BRIAN KAELIN IS PRESENTLY ON THE WITNESS STAND UNDERGOING DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MISS CLARK. GOOD MORNING AGAIN, MR. KAELIN.

# 7 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

GOOD MORNING.

# 8 THE COURT:

MR. KAELIN, YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH.

AND MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CONCLUDE YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION.

# 9 MS. CLARK:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 10 THE COURT:

YOU ARE WELCOME.

# 11 MS. CLARK:

GOOD MORNING.

# 12 THE JURY:

GOOD MORNING.

# 13

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

# 14

BY MS. CLARK:

# 15 Q:

GOOD MORNING, MR. KAELIN.

# 16 A:

GOOD MORNING.

# 17 Q:

NOW, YOU INDICATED YESTERDAY THAT YOU WENT TO THE MC DONALD'S WITH MR. SIMPSON LEAVING ROCKINGHAM AT ABOUT TEN AFTER 9:00?

# 18 A:

YES.

# 19 Q:

AND I BELIEVE YOU STATED THAT YOU WENT TO THE ONE ON SANTA MONICA BOULEVARD?

# 20 A:

YES.

# 21 Q:

DO YOU RECALL TELLING US YESTERDAY ALSO THAT THAT WAS NOT THE CLOSEST MC DONALD'S TO THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE?

# 22 A:

YES.

# 23 Q:

SO THE ONE YOU WENT TO WAS FARTHER THAN YOU NEEDED TO GO TO GO TO MC DONALD'S; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 24 A:

YES.

# 25 Q:

NOW, DURING THE TRIP TO MC DONALD'S THE DEFENDANT, YOU SAID, HAD TOLD YOU HE DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO TAKE A NAP?

# 26 A:

YES, THAT CAME UP.

# 27 Q:

HE DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO TAKE A NAP AND YOU WENT TO THE FARTHER MC DONALD'S. CAN YOU TELL US WHY YOU WENT TO THE MC DONALD'S THAT WAS FARTHER FROM THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE.

# 28 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. CALLING FOR SPECULATION.

# 29 THE COURT:

IF YOU KNOW.

# 30 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I WAS IN THE CAR. I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE WE WERE GOING.

# 31 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU HAVE A DISCUSSION WITH MR. SIMPSON ABOUT WHICH ONE TO GO TO?

# 32 A:

NO.

# 33 Q:

DID HE TELL YOU WHY YOU WERE GOING TO THE ONE THAT WAS FARTHER AWAY?

# 34 A:

NO.

# 35 Q:

NOW, I BELIEVE YOU ALSO TESTIFIED THAT THE -- THAT BACK AT ROCKINGHAM BEFORE YOU LEFT FOR MC DONALD'S THE DEFENDANT TOLD YOU THAT HE WANTED FIVE DOLLAR BILLS FOR THE SKYCAP BECAUSE HE ONLY HAD HUNDRED DOLLAR BILLS; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 36 A:

A FIVE DOLLAR BILL, RIGHT, FOR THE SKYCAP.

# 37 Q:

YOU DIDN'T GIVE HIM A $5.00 BILL, THOUGH, DID YOU?

# 38 A:

NO.

# 39 Q:

YOU GAVE HIM A TWENTY?

# 40 A:

YES.

# 41 Q:

I BELIEVE EARLIER TESTIFIED THAT WHEN YOU WENT TO MC DONALD'S YOU PAID FOR THE FOOD WITH A TWENTY DOLLAR BILL?

# 42 A:

A DIFFERENT TWENTY.

# 43 Q:

A DIFFERENT TWENTY?

# 44 A:

YES.

# 45 Q:

HE GAVE YOU BACK THE CHANGE, DID HE?

# 46 A:

YES.

# 47 Q:

DID HE KEEP A FIVE DOLLAR BILL FOR HIMSELF?

# 48 A:

NO.

# 49 Q:

DID YOU SEE HIM TRY AND BREAK THE TWENTY DOLLAR BILL YOU GAVE HIM EARLIER WHEN YOU WENT TO MC DONALD'S?

# 50 A:

THE FIRST TWENTY I GAVE HIM?

# 51 Q:

YES.

# 52 A:

NO.

# 53 Q:

SO AFTER ASKING YOU FOR THE FIVE DOLLAR BILL FOR A SKYCAP AT ROCKINGHAM, YOU GAVE HIM A TWENTY; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 54 A:

YES.

# 55 Q:

AND HE WAS AT MC DONALD'S BUT HE NEVER TRIED TO BREAK IT?

# 56 A:

NO.

# 57 Q:

AND HE NEVER TOOK THE CHANGE FROM THE TWENTY YOU PAID FOR THE FOOD WITH?

# 58 A:

NO.

# 59 Q:

NOW, WHEN YOU WERE LIVING ON ROCKINGHAM DID THE DEFENDANT TAKE TRIPS BEFORE THAT? DID HE FREQUENTLY GO ON TRIPS?

# 60 A:

YES.

# 61 Q:

THAT WAS A COMMON OCCURRENCE?

# 62 A:

YES.

# 63 Q:

HAD HE EVER ASKED YOU -- HAD HE EVER ASKED YOU FOR CHANGE FOR A SKYCAP BEFORE GOING ON ANY OTHER TRIP BESIDES THIS ONE?

# 64 A:

NO.

# 65 Q:

THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME?

# 66 A:

YES.

# 67 Q:

AT THE TIME THAT YOU HEARD THE THREE THUMPS, CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER OR NOT YOUR BATHROOM WINDOW WAS OPENED?

# 68 A:

I DON'T THINK IT WAS OPEN. I USUALLY DON'T HAVE IT OPENED.

# 69 Q:

SO YOU DON'T THINK IT WAS THAT NIGHT?

# 70 A:

PROBABLY NOT.

# 71 Q:

WHEN YOU WENT OUT TO THE SOUTH PATHWAY FOR THE FIRST TIME, WHAT POSITION WAS THE FIRST GATE IN?

# 72 A:

THE FIRST GATE? I'M PRETTY SURE IT WAS IN THE POSITION THAT I HAD TO LEAN IT AGAINST THE TREE.

# 73 Q:

WAS IT OPENED?

# 74 A:

IT IS BROKEN. IT IS --

# 75 Q:

WAS IT OPEN?

# 76 A:

NO. I HAD TO PICK IT UP AND MOVE IT.

# 77 Q:

SO THE GATE WAS CLOSED WHEN YOU WENT TO IT?

# 78 A:

RIGHT.

# 79 Q:

YOU MOVED IT PHYSICALLY AGAINST THE TREE?

# 80 A:

YES, YES.

# 81 Q:

HAD YOU EVER GONE OVER TO THAT AREA BEFORE?

# 82 A:

YES.

# 83 Q:

AND WAS THE GATE OPENED OR CLOSED?

# 84 A:

USUALLY THE WAY IT ALWAYS IS IS KIND OF CLOSED, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, IT DOESN'T HAVE A LOCK. YOU HAVE TO PICK IT UP. SO YOU WOULD HAVE TO PICK IT UP, MOVE IT AND PUT IT BACK.

# 85 Q:

BUT IT IS NOT LOCKED?

# 86 A:

NO.

# 87 Q:

WAS IT DIFFICULT TO MOVE?

# 88 A:

NO.

# 89 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU MOVED OUT -- YOU HAD BEEN LIVING ON GRETNA GREEN UNTIL JANUARY OF '94; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 90 A:

YES.

# 91 Q:

AND THEN YOU MOVED OUT AT SOME POINT IN JANUARY TO LIVE AT ROCKINGHAM; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 92 A:

YES.

# 93 Q:

AT THE POINT THAT YOU MOVED OUT TO ROCKINGHAM YOU HAD ALREADY MADE PLANS TO GO AND LIVE WITH NICOLE AT BUNDY; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 94 A:

YES.

# 95 Q:

WHAT WAS HER REACTION TO THAT?

# 96 A:

WHEN I WAS GOING TO BUNDY?

# 97 Q:

WHEN YOU CHANGED YOUR MIND?

# 98 A:

OH, SHE WAS UPSET.

# 99 Q:

ABOUT MOVING IN WITH HER? AND YOU WENT TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 100 A:

SHE WAS UPSET.

# 101 Q:

SHE FELT YOU BETRAYED HER, DIDN'T SHE?

# 102 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. IT CALLS -- IT A LEADING QUESTION.

# 103 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 104 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DID SHE FELT YOU HAD BETRAYED HER?

# 105 A:

NO. SHE FELT I WAS MANIPULATED WAS HER WORDS.

KEY QUOTE

# 106 Q:

SHE FELT THAT THE DEFENDANT WAS MANIPULATING YOU?

# 107 A:

IS WHAT NICOLE SAID.

# 108 Q:

AND DID SHE TRY TO GET YOU TO MOVE OUT OF ROCKINGHAM?

# 109 A:

YES.

# 110 Q:

MANY TIMES?

# 111 A:

THE TIMES THAT SHE WOULD COME BY, JUST ASK IF I FOUND A PLACE, NOT -- MANY? I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS MANY. LIKE TWO OR THREE.

# 112 Q:

SO SHE WAS UPSET WITH YOU FOR STAYING AT ROCKINGHAM?

# 113 A:

YES.

# 114 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, CALLS FOR A CONCLUSION.

# 115 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 116 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND DID YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HER CHANGE AFTER YOU MOVED INTO ROCKINGHAM?

# 117 A:

YES.

# 118 Q:

AND HOW DID IT CHANGE?

# 119 A:

IT WASN'T AS -- WE WEREN'T TALKING AS MUCH AND IT WAS -- THAT WAS IT. IT WAS DIFFERENT. I ALWAYS LIKED NICOLE, BUT SHE WASN'T TALKING AS MUCH SO --

# 120 Q:

NEVERTHELESS, YOU STAYED AT ROCKINGHAM, DIDN'T YOU?

# 121 A:

RIGHT. I WAS LOOKING FOR PLACES TO MOVE TO DURING THAT TIME.

# 122 Q:

OKAY. NOW, WHAT WAS YOUR ARRANGEMENT GOING TO BE WITH HER AT BUNDY? WERE YOU GOING TO PAY HER RENT?

# 123 A:

YES.

# 124 Q:

HOW MUCH WERE YOU GOING TO PAY HER?

# 125 A:

BETWEEN 450 AND 500.

# 126 Q:

AND THEN WHEN YOU MOVED TO ROCKINGHAM OBVIOUSLY YOU DIDN'T?

# 127 A:

NO, I DIDN'T PAY.

# 128 Q:

DID ANYONE ELSE TRY TO MAKE UP THAT MONEY TO HER?

# 129 A:

TO --

# 130 Q:

TO NICOLE?

# 131 A:

I DON'T THINK SO.

# 132 Q:

DID ANYONE ELSE PAY THE MONEY YOU WOULD HAVE PAID FOR RENT AT BUNDY?

# 133 A:

NO, NOT THAT I KNOW OF.

# 134 Q:

DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THE DEFENDANT PAID HER FOUR TO FIVE HUNDRED A MONTH TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS OF INCOME SHE WOULD HAVE HAD FROM YOU?

# 135 A:

NO, I DON'T KNOW THAT.

# 136 Q:

YOU DON'T KNOW?

# 137 A:

NO.

# 138 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 139 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: YESTERDAY, SIR, YOU TESTIFIED -- YESTERDAY, SIR, YOU TESTIFIED THAT THE DEFENDANT DID NOT WANT YOU TO MOVE INTO BUNDY WITH NICOLE. DO YOU RECALL?

# 140 A:

IT WAS A CHOICE, RIGHT, THAT BASICALLY NOT TO.

# 141 Q:

DID THE DEFENDANT TELL YOU HE DID NOT WANT YOU TO MOVE IN WITH NICOLE AT BUNDY?

# 142 A:

IT WASN'T THOSE WORDS, BUT IT WAS -- IT WAS BASICALLY NOT A RIGHT THING TO DO.

# 143 Q:

AND WHY DID HE TELL YOU IT WAS NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO?

# 144 A:

UMM, HE JUST SAID THAT TRYING TO WORK THINGS OUT, IT IS PROBABLY NOT RIGHT TO BE IN THE SAME HOUSE, NOT THE GUEST HOUSE, BUT IN THE HOUSE.

# 145 Q:

DID HE TELL YOU HE WAS AFRAID THAT YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE SEX WITH NICOLE?

# 146 A:

NO.

# 147 Q:

WHAT WORDS DID HE CONVEY -- DID YOU GET THAT FEELING?

# 148 A:

WELL, I KNEW THAT I WASN'T, SO I -- AND I NEVER TOLD HIM -- HE NEVER ASKED ME IF I DID, SO I NEVER -- NICOLE AND I WERE FRIENDS. THERE WAS NOTHING -- THERE WASN'T A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP. WE WERE FRIENDS AND I WAS FRIENDS WITH THE CHILDREN, AND THAT WAS IT.

# 149 Q:

WHAT REASON DID THE DEFENDANT GIVE YOU?

# 150 A:

WELL, I MEAN, I CAN -- I DON'T KNOW.

# 151 Q:

YOU DON'T KNOW?

# 152 A:

I MEAN, IT COULD HAVE BEEN. I DON'T KNOW, BUT HE DIDN'T SAY BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE SEX.

# 153 Q:

MR. KAELIN, DID HE TELL YOU HE WAS WORRIED YOU WAS GOING TO STEAL FROM HER?

# 154 A:

NO, NO, I'M NOT SAYING THAT. I'M TELLING YOU THE TRUTH. HE DIDN'T SAY THOSE WORDS TO ME.

# 155 Q:

WHAT WORDS DID HE SAY?

# 156 A:

THAT IT WASN'T RIGHT PROBABLY FOR YOU TO BE IN THE SAME HOUSE, THAT YOU ARE NOT IN THE GUEST HOUSE, YOU ARE IN THE SAME --

KEY QUOTE

# 157 Q:

IT WASN'T RIGHT BECAUSE YOU WERE GOING TO BEAT HER CHILDREN, YOU WERE GOING TO STEAL FROM HER, WHAT?

# 158 A:

NO. IF THERE WAS GOING TO BE ROMANCE -- I DON'T KNOW. I KNOW THERE WASN'T.

# 159 Q:

YOU KNOW THERE WASN'T?

# 160 A:

RIGHT.

# 161 Q:

WHAT WAS HIS FEELING?

# 162 A:

IT WAS NEVER -- I DON'T KNOW HIS FEELINGS. I KNOW MY FEELINGS.

# 163 Q:

WHAT DID HE CONVEY TO YOU?

# 164 A:

THAT I SHOULD MOVE OUT, THAT I SHOULD GO THERE, I HAD A PLACE TO STAY THERE.

# 165 Q:

BECAUSE?

# 166 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 167 Q:

MR. KAELIN, DID HE CONVEY TO YOU THE FEELING THAT HE WAS WORRIED ABOUT HIS WIFE'S SECURITY IN TERMS OF BEING ASSAULTED BY YOU?

# 168 A:

NO.

# 169 Q:

THAT YOU WERE GOING TO STEAL FROM HER?

# 170 A:

NO.

# 171 Q:

THAT YOU WERE GOING TO BEAT HER CHILDREN?

# 172 A:

NO.

# 173 Q:

NO. WHAT WAS THE CONCERN THAT HE CONVEYED TO YOU ABOUT YOUR STAYING IN THE SAME PLACE WITH HER AT BUNDY?

# 174 A:

WELL, I MEAN IT COULD BE THAT, BUT I'M TELLING YOU THAT HE DIDN'T SAY I WAS GOING TO HAVE THAT. I'M JUST TELLING YOU THE TRUTH. AND IT WAS THE FEELING THAT MAYBE IT COULD BE THOUGHT THAT, THAT MAYBE I SHOULD GO, THAT MAYBE HE WAS THINKING MAYBE KATO COULD BE WITH NICOLE, BUT I DON'T KNOW, IT NEVER HAPPENED, SO I MOVED OUT.

# 175 Q:

I'M NOT ASKING YOU IF IT EVER HAPPENED, MR. KAELIN. I'M ASKING YOU WHAT THE DEFENDANT SAID TO YOU?

# 176 A:

I HAD A PLACE AT HIS PLACE, RIGHT.

# 177 Q:

BECAUSE YOU SHOULD NOT LIVE WITH HER UNDER THE SAME ROOF?

# 178 A:

YES.

# 179 Q:

AND WHAT REASON WAS IT THAT HE GAVE YOU FOR THAT?

# 180 A:

I'M -- I'M TELLING YOU THAT THE REASON WAS HE DIDN'T SAY BECAUSE OF HAVING, YOU KNOW, ROMANCE WITH HER. THAT DIDN'T COME UP LIKE THAT, BECAUSE I THINK IT WAS A GIVEN THAT I WASN'T, BUT HE WAS SAYING IT WASN'T RIGHT FOR YOU TO BE A MAN TO MAN THING WHERE YOU ARE GOING TO BE IN THE SAME HOUSE WITH HIS CHILDREN AND NICOLE.

THEY WERE TRYING TO WORK THINGS OUT, SO I MOVED OUT.

# 181 Q:

AND HE NEVER SAID I DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF A MAN LIVING UNDER THE SAME ROOF WITH NICOLE? HE NEVER SAID THAT?

# 182 A:

THAT IT WASN'T RIGHT FOR ME TO BE IN THE SAME HOUSE, A MAN IN THAT SAME HOUSE WITH NICOLE AND THE CHILDREN.

# 183 Q:

AND WHAT DID YOU TAKE THAT TO MEAN, MR. KAELIN?

# 184 A:

I MOVED OUT. I WASN'T --

# 185 Q:

WHAT DID YOU TAKE THAT TO MEAN, MR. KAELIN?

# 186 A:

THAT IT COULD POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN THAT HE WAS THINKING THAT I MIGHT BE WITH NICOLE.

# 187 Q:

SEXUALLY?

# 188 A:

POSSIBLY THAT HE WAS THINKING THAT, YES.

# 189 Q:

WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU THINK AS A RESULT OF THAT STATEMENT?

# 190 A:

WELL, BECAUSE I NEVER DID.

# 191 Q:

I UNDERSTAND. MR. KAELIN, ANSWER MY QUESTION.

# 192 A:

OKAY.

# 193 Q:

WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU HAVE THOUGHT?

# 194 MR. SHAPIRO:

YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING --

# 195 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

THAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN THAT.

# 196 THE COURT:

HOLD ON. HOLD ON.

# 197 MR. SHAPIRO:

THERE IS GOING TO BE AN OBJECTION.

# 198 THE COURT:

WHAT IS THE GROUNDS?

# 199 MR. SHAPIRO:

CROSS-EXAMINATION. IMPROPER QUESTIONING.

# 200 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 201 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

THAT IT POSSIBLY COULD HAVE BEEN THAT HAVING A ROMANCE WITH HER.

# 202 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: RIGHT.

# 203 A:

I MEAN, THAT COULD HAVE BEEN IN HIS MIND, YES.

# 204 Q:

AND I'M ASKING YOU IF YOU GOT THE IMPRESSION IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANYTHING ELSE, WHAT ELSE?

# 205 A:

NO, IT COULDN'T HAVE BEEN ANYTHING ELSE.

# 206 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 207 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: I SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH THAT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 40-B. DO YOU SEE THAT DOG, SIR?

# 208 A:

YES.

# 209 Q:

DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT DOG?

# 210 A:

YES.

# 211 Q:

CAN YOU TELL US WHOSE IT IS?

# 212 A:

NICOLE'S, THE CHILDREN'S.

# 213 Q:

AND WHAT IS THE NAME OF THAT DOG?

# 214 A:

THAT IS KATO.

# 215 Q:

AND WHERE DID THAT DOG LIVE PRIMARILY?

# 216 A:

PRIMARILY ON BUNDY.

# 217 Q:

AND WAS THAT THE DOG YOU REFERRED TO YESTERDAY THAT ALSO FREQUENTLY VISITED AT ROCKINGHAM?

# 218 A:

YES.

# 219 Q:

AND THAT ALSO SPENT THE NIGHT AT ROCKINGHAM ON MANY OCCASIONS?

# 220 A:

YES.

# 221 Q:

DO YOU KNOW HOW THAT DOG HAPPENED TO BECOME CALLED KATO?

# 222 A:

I BELIEVE THE CHILDREN NAMED IT KATO.

# 223 Q:

AND WHEN WAS THAT?

# 224 A:

IT WAS AT THE GRETNA GREEN HOUSE WHEN IT WAS A PUPPY.

# 225 Q:

WHEN YOU WERE LIVING THERE?

# 226 A:

YES.

# 227 Q:

AND WERE YOU NICKNAMED KATO AT THAT TIME AS WELL?

# 228 A:

YES.

# 229 Q:

ALL RIGHT. I BELIEVE YOU INDICATED THAT WHEN YOU LEFT THE HOUSE ON ROCKINGHAM ON JUNE THE 13TH AT 7:30 -- EXCUSE ME, STRIKE THAT. YOU INDICATED THAT A POLICE OFFICER ESCORTED YOU OUT OF ROCKINGHAM ON THE MORNING OF JUNE THE 13TH. DO YOU RECALL THAT?

# 230 MR. SHAPIRO:

YOUR HONOR, THIS HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED.

# 231 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 232 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

YES.

# 233 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU LEFT?

# 234 A:

IT WAS ABOUT 7:30 A.M.

# 235 Q:

AND AT THE TIME THAT YOU LEFT, DO YOU RECALL TESTIFYING YESTERDAY THAT AN OFFICER STEERED YOU AROUND SOME BLOOD DROPS IN THE FOYER?

# 236 A:

YES.

# 237 Q:

AFTER YOU EXITED THE FOYER, DID YOU WALK OUT ONTO THE DRIVEWAY?

# 238 A:

YES.

# 239 Q:

AND WHAT DID YOU SEE ON THE DRIVEWAY WHEN YOU LEFT AT 7:30 IN THE MORNING FOR ROCKINGHAM?

# 240 A:

THERE --

# 241 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. THIS HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR.

# 242 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 243 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I SAW THE CARDBOARD, THE NUMBERS, THERE WAS LIKE MORE --

# 244 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 245 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: GO AHEAD.

# 246 A:

OH, THERE WAS -- YOU HAVE CARD -- IT WAS LIKE NUMBERED PIECES OF CARDBOARD.

# 247 Q:

NUMBERED PIECES OF CARDBOARD ON THE DRIVEWAY?

# 248 A:

YES.

# 249 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

PEOPLE'S 120-C.

# 250 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO LOOK AT THE MONITOR AND LOOK AT PEOPLE'S 120-C. DO YOU SEE ANYTHING THAT RESEMBLES WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED, SIR?

# 251 A:

THAT IS THE CARDBOARD, BUT THAT IS NOT WHERE I SAW THE CARDBOARD, NO.

# 252 MS. CLARK:

LET ME MOVE UP.

# 253 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 254 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

120-F.

# 255 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT?

# 256 A:

YES.

# 257 Q:

TELL US WHAT YOU SEE. IS THAT WHAT YOU RECOGNIZE SEEING AT 7:30 IN THE MORNING ON JUNE THE 13TH WHEN YOU LEFT?

# 258 A:

YES, I SAW THOSE CARDBOARDS.

# 259 Q:

OKAY. AND DID YOU SEE WHAT WAS NEXT TO THEM?

# 260 A:

WHEN I WALKED BY I JUST SAW A DROP, BUT I ASSUMED IT WAS BLOOD.

# 261 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 262 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

PEOPLE'S 120-K.

# 263 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. CAN YOU SEE SOMETHING THERE THAT YOU RECALL SEEING AT 7:30 IN THE MORNING WHEN YOU LEFT ROCKINGHAM?

# 264 A:

YES.

# 265 Q:

AND --

# 266 A:

THAT IS --

# 267 Q:

TELL US WHAT IT IS.

# 268 A:

THAT IS THE PATH THAT I TOOK OUT THE ESCORTS FRONT DOOR AND I WALKED OUT THAT WAY TO ASHFORD GATE.

# 269 Q:

OKAY. AND CAN YOU --

# 270 A:

YEAH, IT IS CARDBOARD.

# 271 Q:

CAN YOU LOOK AT THE SCREEN.

# 272 A:

(WITNESS COMPLIES.) RIGHT --

# 273 Q:

THE AREA I'M CIRCLING RIGHT THERE, IS THAT THE CARDBOARD YOU SAW?

# 274 A:

YES.

# 275 Q:

WITH THE BLOOD DROP NEXT TO IT?

# 276 A:

YES.

# 277 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

PEOPLE'S 120-J.

# 278 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND I'M SHOWING YOU AGAIN. DO YOU RECALL SEEING THAT WHEN YOU LEFT THE HOUSE AT 7:30 IN THE MORNING?

# 279 A:

I DON'T RECALL IF THE NUMBER WAS THAT, BUT YES.

# 280 Q:

OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THAT DRIVEWAY --

# 281 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 282 MS. CLARK:

PEOPLE'S 136.

# 283 Q:

YOU INDICATED THAT YOU SAW THE KNAPSACK, THAT SMALL BLACK KNAPSACK, BEHIND THE BENTLEY?

# 284 A:

YES.

# 285 Q:

CAN YOU SEE ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH THE AREA WHERE YOU SAW THE KNAPSACK ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH?

# 286 A:

NO, NOT IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH.

# 287 MS. CLARK:

I'M GOING TO ASK TO --

# 288 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 289 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 138. CAN YOU TELL US WHERE IN RELATION TO THE AREA OF THE DRIVEWAY SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH YOU SAW THE BLACK KNAPSACK?

# 290 A:

YES, IT WOULD BE THE -- WHERE THE GRASS WOULD COME OUT AT THE FURTHEST POINT, OKAY.

# 291 Q:

WHY DON'T YOU DIRECT THE ARROW TO THE LOCATION.

# 292 A:

OKAY. DOWN. OKAY. GO TOWARDS -- RIGHT ABOUT THERE, (INDICATING). NOW, IF THE ROLLS ROYCE WAS -- WOULD BE PARKED RIGHT LIKE -- IT WOULD BE THERE, SO IT WAS STICKING OUT RIGHT ABOUT THERE, (INDICATING).

# 293 Q:

IS THAT ABOUT THE RIGHT SPOT WHERE IT IS NOW?

# 294 A:

GO JUST ABOUT A LITTLE BIT UP BUT MORE -- IT IS CEMENT. GO TO -- BACK A LITTLE. THERE. RIGHT ABOUT THERE I SAW, (INDICATING).

# 295 Q:

OKAY. AND THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW THAT KNAPSACK WAS WHEN?

# 296 A:

I THINK IT WAS MY SECOND TIME AFTER I CHECKED BACK ON THE -- FROM WHEN I WENT UP TO THE WALKWAY, THE PATHWAY, WHERE I HEARD THE THUMPING NOISE. THAT IS WHEN I FIRST --

# 297 Q:

YOU CAME OUT ON THE ASHFORD SIDE. YOU SAW THE LIMOUSINE AT THE GATE, RIGHT?

# 298 A:

YES.

# 299 Q:

AS YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY, YOU WENT OVER TO THE GARAGE AREA TO THE FIRST GATE BUT DIDN'T GO IN?

# 300 A:

THE FIRST GATE?

# 301 Q:

YES.

# 302 A:

NO, I WENT TO THE FIRST GATE.

# 303 Q:

RIGHT.

# 304 A:

THE SECOND GATE I NEVER WENT BEYOND.

# 305 Q:

NO. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST TIME YOU WENT OUT THERE.

# 306 A:

THE FIRST TIME.

# 307 Q:

DID YOU GO PAST THE FIRST GATE THE FIRST TIME YOU WENT OUT THERE?

# 308 A:

YES.

# 309 Q:

WHAT DID DO YOU? YOU OPENED IT?

# 310 A:

OPENED IT AND JUST WENT A FEW FEET AND THAT WAS IT.

# 311 Q:

OKAY. AND WHEN YOU CAME BACK OUT, THE LIMOUSINE DRIVER WAS STILL AT THE GATE?

# 312 A:

WAS AT THE GATE, YES.

# 313 Q:

AND DID YOU SEE THE KNAPSACK AT THAT TIME?

# 314 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING IT THAT TIME.

# 315 Q:

YOU DID NOT SEE IT ON THE DRIVEWAY AT THAT TIME?

# 316 A:

NO, I DID NOT.

# 317 MR. SHAPIRO:

THAT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID, YOUR HONOR. MISSTATES THE ANSWER.

# 318 MS. CLARK:

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID.

# 319 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 320 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING IT.

# 321 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: YOU DID NOT REMEMBER SEEING THE KNAPSACK?

# 322 A:

NO. I REMEMBER THERE WAS THE GOLF BAG AND THAT WAS AT A DIFFERENT AREA.

# 323 Q:

WHERE -- WHERE DID YOU INDICATE THE GOLF BAG WAS?

# 324 A:

DO YOU WANT ME TO ARROW? OKAY. YOU HAVE TO -- IS THERE GOING TO BE AN ARROW?

# 325 Q:

SURE.

# 326 A:

OKAY. GO STRAIGHT UP. RIGHT, OKAY, UP A LITTLE BIT, AND IT IS IN THAT WAY, RIGHT THERE, THROUGH THE PEWS, (INDICATING).

# 327 Q:

BETWEEN THE BENCHES?

# 328 A:

YES, BETWEEN THE BENCHES.

# 329 Q:

NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT -- SO THAT AT THAT POINT YOU WENT TO THE GATE AND YOU LET THE DRIVER IN? IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID?

# 330 A:

YES.

# 331 Q:

WHEN YOU WENT BACK THE SECOND TIME, AS YOU WALKED BACK TOWARDS THE SOUTH PATHWAY, DID YOU SEE THE KNAPSACK THERE ON THE DRIVEWAY?

# 332 A:

I DON'T THINK I SAW IT YET. IT WAS -- WHEN I CAME BACK.

# 333 Q:

AFTER YOU WENT TO THE SOUTH PATHWAY FOR THE SECOND TIME, YOU SAID YOU RETURNED BACK TO THE DIRECTION OF THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE?

# 334 A:

AFTER I -- COMING BACK THE SECOND TIME?

# 335 Q:

YES.

# 336 A:

YES.

# 337 Q:

AND IS THAT WHEN YOU SAW THE KNAPSACK?

# 338 A:

YES, I BELIEVE SO.

# 339 Q:

AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU EVER HAD SEEN THAT KNAPSACK?

# 340 A:

YES.

# 341 Q:

HOW FAR WAS THAT KNAPSACK THAT YOU SAW FROM THE BLOOD DROP MARKERS THAT YOU SAW LATER IN THE MORNING WHEN YOU LEFT AT 7:30 FROM ROCKINGHAM?

# 342 A:

WHICH ONE? YOU MEAN NO. 8? THAT ONE?

# 343 Q:

THAT ONE.

# 344 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 345 Q:

WELL, WAIT. LET ME SHOW YOU ANOTHER PHOTOGRAPH AND HELP YOU OUT.

# 346 A:

OKAY.

# 347 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 348 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: THAT IS THE ROCKINGHAM DRIVEWAY, CORRECT?

# 349 A:

YES.

# 350 Q:

ALL RIGHT. DO YOU SEE THAT CARDBOARD MARKER ON THE DRIVEWAY, THE LOWEST ONE DOWN?

# 351 A:

YES, I DO.

# 352 Q:

HOW FAR IS THAT MARKER, THAT BLOOD DROP MARKER, FROM WHERE YOU SAW THE KNAPSACK?

# 353 A:

UMM, ABOUT A FOOT AND A HALF.

# 354 Q:

OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU DIRECT THE ARROW ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH TO WHERE IT WAS.

# 355 A:

OKAY. GO TO THE CARDBOARD, THE BOTTOM ONE, THE --

# 356 Q:

OKAY. GO AHEAD.

# 357 A:

OKAY. GO TO THE CARDBOARD WITH THE ARROW. OKAY. NOW GO FORWARD. NO, FORWARD. MORE, MORE. RIGHT ABOUT THERE, (INDICATING).

# 358 THE COURT:

WHICH PHOTOGRAPH IS THIS?

# 359 MS. CLARK:

THIS IS PEOPLE'S 120-F. COULD WE ASK THIS BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 120-F(1)?

# 360 THE COURT:

120-F(1).

# 361 (PEO'S 120-F(1) FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

# 362 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: NOW, THAT KNAPSACK, WAS THAT A DUFFEL BAG, A BIG DUFFEL BAG?

# 363 A:

NO.

# 364 MR. SHAPIRO:

BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR.

# 365 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. YOU HAVE ALREADY ASKED HIM TO DESCRIBE THE SIZE.

# 366 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: HOW -- I'M SORRY.

# 367 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 368 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AFTER YOU SAW THE DUFFEL BAG -- EXCUSE ME. AFTER YOU SAW THAT KNAPSACK ON THE DRIVEWAY IN THE POSITION YOU HAVE INDICATED HERE, SIR, I THINK YOU INDICATED YESTERDAY THAT YOU OFFERED TO GET IT AND THE DEFENDANT SAID, "NO, I WILL GET IT"; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 369 A:

YES.

# 370 Q:

DID YOU SEE HIM LOAD ANY OTHER BAGS INTO THE LIMOUSINE BESIDES THAT ONE?

# 371 A:

I DIDN'T -- NO, I DIDN'T -- I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING ANY LOADING. IT COULD HAVE BEEN -- HE MIGHT HAVE WALKED IN WITH SOMETHING WHEN HE LEFT FOR THE TRIP, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 372 Q:

AFTER HE WALKED TOWARD THE BAG, SAYING HE WOULD GET THAT KNAPSACK, AFTER HE WALKED TOWARDS IT, DID YOU EVER SEE IT AGAIN?

# 373 A:

NO.

# 374 Q:

NOW, YOU STATED THAT AFTER YOU LEFT AT APPROXIMATELY 7:30, YOU WENT TO THE POLICE STATION?

# 375 A:

YES.

# 376 Q:

AT THE TIME THAT YOU WENT TO THE POLICE STATION, SIR, WERE YOU AWARE OF ANY EVIDENCE THAT HAD BEEN FOUND AT THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS?

# 377 A:

WAS I AWARE OF EVIDENCE? YOU MEAN THE MARKINGS?

# 378 Q:

NO. AT THE TIME YOU LEFT ROCKINGHAM AT 7:30 HAD ANYONE TOLD YOU ABOUT A GLOVE FOUND BACK ON THE SOUTH PATHWAY?

# 379 A:

NO.

# 380 Q:

AT THE TIME THAT YOU SPOKE TO THE POLICE AND GAVE THEM THAT INTERVIEW AT THE WEST L.A. STATION, HAD ANYONE TOLD YOU ABOUT THE GLOVE THAT WAS FOUND AT ROCKINGHAM?

# 381 A:

NO.

# 382 Q:

AT THE TIME THAT YOU GAVE THE STATEMENT TO THE POLICE AT THE WEST L.A. STATION, DID YOU ALSO BELIEVE THAT YOU WOULD EVER BE CALLED TO TESTIFY FOR THE PROSECUTION IN A CASE IN WHICH MR. SIMPSON WAS THE DEFENDANT?

# 383 A:

NO.

# 384 Q:

WHEN YOU FINISHED YOUR INTERVIEW WITH THE POLICE AT THE WEST L.A. STATION, YOU INDICATED TO US YESTERDAY THAT YOU WENT TO GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE?

# 385 A:

YES.

# 386 Q:

BEFORE YOU WENT TO GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE POLICE ABOUT WHERE YOU SHOULD STAY?

# 387 A:

YES.

# 388 Q:

AND DID THEY INDICATE TO YOU THAT YOU SHOULD NOT GO BACK TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 389 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, LEADING.

# 390 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 391 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DID THEY INDICATE ANYTHING TO YOU ABOUT WHERE YOU SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT GO?

# 392 A:

YES.

# 393 Q:

WHAT WAS THAT?

# 394 A:

THEY TOLD ME PROBABLY BEST NOT TO GO BACK.

# 395 Q:

AND WHEN YOU WERE AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE YOU INDICATED TO US YESTERDAY YOU RECEIVED A PHONE CALL IN WHICH YOU SPOKE TO HOWARD WEITZMAN --

# 396 A:

YES.

# 397 Q:

-- MR. SIMPSON'S ATTORNEY. DO YOU RECALL THAT?

# 398 A:

YES.

# 399 Q:

DID HE ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU WENT TO THE POLICE STATION?

# 400 A:

THAT I -- I HAD TALKED TO THE POLICE AND HAD AN INTERVIEW.

# 401 Q:

YES. AND HE ASKED YOU ABOUT THAT?

# 402 A:

YES.

# 403 Q:

DID HE ASK YOU WHAT YOU TOLD THE POLICE?

# 404 A:

YES.

# 405 Q:

DID HE ASK YOU WHAT HAPPENED AT THE POLICE STATION WHEN YOU GAVE YOUR INTERVIEW?

# 406 A:

THAT I WAS IN A ROOM AND GAVE AN INTERVIEW.

# 407 Q:

AND DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT YOU TOLD THE POLICE?

# 408 A:

YES.

# 409 Q:

AND AFTER YOU TOLD HIM WHAT YOU HAD TOLD THE POLICE, DID YOU ALSO TELL HIM UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES, THAT YOU WERE INTERVIEWED ALONE?

# 410 A:

SAY IT AGAIN.

# 411 Q:

DID YOU TELL HIM HOW LONG YOU SPOKE TO THE POLICE, SIR?

# 412 A:

YES.

# 413 Q:

AND DID YOU TELL HIM THAT THE POLICE SPOKE TO YOU ALONE IN AN INTERVIEW ROOM AT THE STATION?

# 414 A:

YES.

# 415 Q:

AND AFTER YOU GAVE HIM THAT INFORMATION, DID HE ASK YOU TO GO OVER AND SEE HIM AND THE DEFENDANT AT ROCKINGHAM?

# 416 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER THAT, TO GO THERE TO SEE THEM. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT.

# 417 Q:

AT THAT TIME WAS -- AT THE TIME YOU WERE SPEAKING TO MR. WEITZMAN WAS MR. SIMPSON ON THE PHONE AS WELL?

# 418 A:

I THOUGHT SO.

# 419 Q:

DID MR. SIMPSON ASK YOU TO GO TO ROCKINGHAM DURING THAT PHONE CALL?

# 420 A:

I DON'T THINK SO. I DON'T KNOW IF THE PHONE CALL WAS AT ROCKINGHAM, WHERE THEY WERE AT. I DIDN'T KNOW.

# 421 Q:

MR. KAELIN --

# 422 A:

YES.

# 423 Q:

-- AFTER YOU HAD THAT PHONE CALL, YOU WENT TO ROCKINGHAM, DIDN'T YOU?

# 424 A:

AT SOME POINT I WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM, YES.

# 425 Q:

AND SOMEONE ASKED YOU TO GO BACK TO ROCKINGHAM, DIDN'T THEY?

# 426 A:

I -- I DON'T REMEMBER WHO. I TALKED AND SAID I WAS AT GRANT CRAMER'S AND I JUST DON'T REMEMBER WHO.

# 427 Q:

MR. KAELIN, I ASKED YOU DID SOMEONE ASK YOU TO GO BACK TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 428 A:

YES, SOMEONE.

# 429 Q:

YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHICH ONE?

# 430 A:

I DON'T KNOW.

# 431 Q:

AND THAT WAS AFTER YOU HAD THE CONVERSATION WITH MR. WEITZMAN CONCERNING WHAT TRANSPIRED AT THE POLICE STATION WHEN YOU GAVE YOUR INTERVIEW; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 432 A:

IT WAS AFTER THAT, YES.

# 433 Q:

AND THEN ON JUNE THE 13TH -- THEN WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM LATER THAT DAY WHO WAS THERE?

# 434 A:

THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE THERE. UMM, SOME NAMES THAT I REMEMBER.

# 435 Q:

WHO?

# 436 A:

OKAY. THERE WAS RON SHIPP, ARNELLE AND JASON, JASON'S GIRLFRIEND, UMM, I THINK AL COWLINGS WAS THERE. UMM, MARK SLOTKIN. UMM -- AND ALL THE RELATIVES, A LOT OF RELATIVES. I DON'T KNOW ALL THE NAMES.

# 437 Q:

RELATIVES OF WHO?

# 438 A:

OF O.J.'S.

# 439 Q:

WAS ANYONE THERE TALKING ABOUT NICOLE?

# 440 A:

UMM, NOT THAT I REMEMBER. I THINK ARNELLE DID.

# 441 Q:

ANYBODY BESIDES ARNELLE?

# 442 A:

I THINK WHOEVER ARNELLE WAS TALKING TO, AND I DON'T KNOW WHO IT WAS, BUT ARNELLE WAS SAYING THINGS ABOUT NICOLE.

# 443 Q:

HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE THERE, MR. KAELIN?

# 444 A:

IT WAS DIFFERENT AT TIMES. IT WAS KIND OF LIKE PEOPLE COMING IN AND OUT, IN AND OUT.

# 445 Q:

GIVE US AN ESTIMATE?

# 446 A:

FIFTEEN TO TWENTY.

# 447 Q:

FIFTEEN, TWENTY PEOPLE? AND THE ONLY PERSON YOU SAW TALKING ABOUT NICOLE WAS ARNELLE TO SOMEONE ELSE?

# 448 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. LEADING.

# 449 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 450 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WAS ARNELLE THE ONLY PERSON YOU HEARD SPEAKING ABOUT NICOLE?

# 451 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.

# 452 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 453 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

AT THAT TIME, YES.

# 454 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WAS THAT A CATERED AFFAIR AT THAT TIME, FOOD BROUGHT IN AND STUFF?

# 455 A:

AT THAT TIME I DON'T KNOW. THERE WAS FOOD. IT WAS -- PEOPLE WERE BRINGING FOOD IN. IT WAS KIND OF COMING IN. OTHER PEOPLE WERE BRINGING FOOD AND SO THERE WAS FOOD, YES.

# 456 Q:

OTHER THAN THE DEFENDANT'S FAMILY, WERE THERE OTHER PEOPLE THERE?

# 457 A:

YES.

# 458 Q:

DO YOU KNOW THEIR NAMES?

# 459 A:

SOME OF THE NAMES, BUT SOME NOT.

# 460 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED THIRD TIME.

# 461 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 462 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHO BESIDES THE DEFENDANT'S FAMILY WAS THERE?

# 463 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, ASKED AND ANSWERED.

# 464 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 465 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WAS MARK SLOTKIN THERE?

# 466 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, ASKED AND ANSWERED, LEADING.

# 467 THE COURT:

LET ME SEE COUNSEL AT THE SIDE BAR, PLEASE, WITHOUT THE REPORTER.

# 468 (A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)

# 469 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

# 470 THE COURT:

THANK YOU, COUNSEL. PROCEED.

# 471 MS. CLARK:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 472 Q:

WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM ON JUNE THE 13TH, LATER IN THE DAY, DID YOU HAPPEN TO NOTICE WHETHER THE DEFENDANT HAD AN INJURY TO HIS LEFT HAND?

# 473 A:

YES.

# 474 Q:

WHAT DID YOU SEE?

# 475 A:

UMM, I SAW THAT THERE WAS I THINK A TISSUE ON A FINGER AND IT WAS -- THERE WAS BLOOD.

KEY QUOTE

# 476 Q:

THERE WAS BLOOD?

# 477 A:

ON THE TISSUE AROUND. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS A TISSUE, BAND-AID, WHITE GAUZE OR WHAT.

# 478 Q:

WHICH HAND WAS THAT, LEFT OR RIGHT?

# 479 A:

I CAN'T BE POSITIVE. I THOUGHT MAYBE THE LEFT.

# 480 Q:

DO YOU KNOW WHETHER MR. SIMPSON IS RIGHT OR LEFT-HANDED?

# 481 A:

I THINK HE IS RIGHT-HANDED.

# 482 Q:

RIGHT-HANDED?

# 483 A:

I THINK HE IS RIGHT-HANDED.

# 484 Q:

ALL RIGHT. MR. KAELIN, YOU INDICATED YESTERDAY THAT WHEN YOU CAME BACK FROM MC DONALD'S YOU MADE A PHONE CALL TO YOUR FRIEND TOM IN SAN DIEGO AT 9:37; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 485 A:

YES.

# 486 Q:

SO YOU LAST SAW THE DEFENDANT STANDING BY THE BENTLEY AT 9:35. WAS THAT YOUR TESTIMONY?

# 487 MR. SHAPIRO:

ASKED AND ANSWERED.

# 488 THE COURT:

THIS IS FOUNDATIONAL TO SOMETHING ELSE?

# 489 MS. CLARK:

YES, IT IS, YOUR HONOR.

# 490 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 491 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

YES.

# 492 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AT 9:35?

# 493 A:

IT WOULD BE, YES, TO WALK -- ABOUT 9:35, 9:36.

# 494 Q:

UH-HUH. DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT AT 9:45?

# 495 A:

NO.

# 496 Q:

DID YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT 9:45?

# 497 A:

NO.

# 498 Q:

DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT AT 9:50?

# 499 A:

NO.

# 500 Q:

DID YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT 9:50?

# 501 A:

NO.

# 502 Q:

DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT AT 9:55?

# 503 A:

NO.

# 504 Q:

DID YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT 9:55?

# 505 A:

NO.

# 506 Q:

DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT AT 10:15?

# 507 A:

NO.

# 508 Q:

DID YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT 10:15?

# 509 A:

NO.

# 510 Q:

DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT AT 10:20?

# 511 A:

NO.

# 512 Q:

DID YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT 10:20?

# 513 A:

NO.

# 514 Q:

DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT AT 10:30?

# 515 A:

NO.

# 516 Q:

DID YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT 10:30?

# 517 A:

NO.

# 518 Q:

DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT AT 10:40?

# 519 A:

NO.

# 520 Q:

DID YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT 10:40?

# 521 A:

NO.

# 522 Q:

DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT AT 10:45?

# 523 A:

NO.

# 524 Q:

DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT 10:45?

# 525 A:

NO.

# 526 Q:

DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT AT 10:50?

# 527 A:

NO.

# 528 Q:

DID YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT 10:50?

# 529 A:

NO.

# 530 MS. CLARK:

I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Kato Kaelin

SHE FELT I WAS MANIPULATED WAS HER WORDS.

Nicole told Kaelin that OJ had manipulated him into moving to Rockingham instead of living with her at Bundy — suggesting OJ's controlling behavior extended to isolating Nicole.

Kato Kaelin

THAT IT WASN'T RIGHT PROBABLY FOR YOU TO BE IN THE SAME HOUSE, THAT YOU ARE NOT IN THE GUEST HOUSE, YOU ARE IN THE SAME -- ... THAT MAYBE HE WAS THINKING MAYBE KATO COULD BE WITH NICOLE.

Kaelin's halting admission that OJ's real concern was sexual jealousy — he didn't want another man under the same roof as Nicole.

Kato Kaelin

I SAW THAT THERE WAS I THINK A TISSUE ON A FINGER AND IT WAS -- THERE WAS BLOOD.

Kaelin observed what appeared to be a bandaged, bleeding wound on OJ's left hand when he returned to Rockingham on June 13th — corroborating the blood trail evidence.

Marcia Clark

DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT AT 9:45? ... 9:50? ... 9:55? ... 10:15? ... 10:20? ... 10:30? ... 10:40? ... 10:45? ... 10:50?

Clark's methodical, metronomic closing sequence hammered home that Kaelin — living on the property — had zero knowledge of Simpson's whereabouts during the window of the murders.

Evidence (10)

People's 40-B

Photograph of Nicole's dog, also named Kato

discussed; Kaelin identified the dog and explained the children named it after him while he lived at Gretna Green

People's 120-C

Photograph of driveway with numbered cardboard markers

shown to witness; Kaelin said this was not the location where he saw the markers

People's 120-F

Photograph of driveway showing cardboard blood-drop markers and drops

Kaelin identified this as what he saw when escorted out at 7:30 AM on June 13th

People's 120-K

Photograph showing the path Kaelin walked out the front door to the Ashford gate

Kaelin identified the route and confirmed cardboard markers visible

People's 120-J

Driveway photograph with numbered marker

shown; Kaelin recognized the area but could not confirm the specific marker number

People's 120-F(1)

Annotated version of 120-F marked during testimony showing approximate knapsack location

marked into evidence; Kaelin directed the on-screen arrow to where knapsack was, approximately a foot and a half from the blood drop marker

+ 4 more

Notable Exchanges (4)

Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin

Clark pressed Kaelin at length to admit that OJ's reason for steering him away from Nicole's was sexual jealousy. Kaelin repeatedly hedged ('I'm telling you the truth, he didn't say those words'), forcing Clark to walk him through increasingly blunt hypotheticals — stealing, beating children — before Kaelin finally conceded 'that maybe he was thinking maybe Kato could be with Nicole.'

strategic/revealing

Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin

Clark established that OJ never broke the $20 Kaelin gave him for skycap change, never used the McDonald's trip to get small bills, and never took change from the food purchase — undermining the stated reason for the late-night trip and suggesting it served another purpose.

strategic

Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin

The final sequence of the examination: Clark asked whether Kaelin saw or knew where Simpson was at nine separate time points between 9:45 PM and 10:50 PM. Each answer was 'No.' The cumulative effect established a complete alibi void during the murder window.

devastating

Robert Shapiro•Marcia Clark•Lance A. Ito

Shapiro objected 'THAT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID, YOUR HONOR. MISSTATES THE ANSWER' when Clark characterized Kaelin as saying he did not see the knapsack. Clark shot back 'THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID.' Ito overruled; Kaelin clarified he said he didn't remember seeing it.

heated

Light Moments (1)

Kato Kaelin

Clark asked Kaelin how Nicole's dog came to be named 'Kato' — the children had named the puppy after him while he lived at Gretna Green, meaning both the witness and the dog shared the name on the Rockingham property.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ OJ Simpson (via Kaelin's account)

conduct inconsistent with stated purpose

Clark systematically showed that OJ's stated need for skycap change was pretextual — he never broke the $20, never took the McDonald's change, and chose a farther McDonald's despite claiming he was short on time. The trip's true purpose was left implied.

⚔ Kato Kaelin

reluctant witness / prior relationship with defendant

Clark's extended effort to extract OJ's jealousy motive implicitly highlighted Kaelin's reluctance to directly inculpate Simpson, requiring repeated rephrasing to get him to state the obvious inference from OJ's own words.

Witness Demeanor

(INDICATING) — used repeatedly as Kaelin directed on-screen arrows to mark locations on driveway photographs

(NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE) — when Clark asked 'BECAUSE?' after Kaelin explained OJ said he should move out

Kaelin's answers throughout were halting, circuitous, and heavily qualified — consistent with a witness reluctant to condemn Simpson but ultimately unable to contradict Clark's framework

Objections

15 objections (7 sustained, 7 overruled)

Proceeding 5407 • 530 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103