Cross-examination of Rosa Maria Lopez (part 2)

📄 Cross-examination of Rosa Maria Lopez (part 2) — Thursday, March 2, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\2\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-ROSA-MARI.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 29 of 167

◀ Cross-examination of Rosa Maria Lopez (part 1) Sidebar: statement foundation ▶

Witness: Rosa Lopez
Examiner: Christopher Darden
Called by: Defense • Date: Thursday, March 2, 1995 • Utterances: 358

Christopher Darden cross-examines Rosa Lopez, focusing on three main lines of attack: her exclusive cooperation with defense lawyers while refusing to speak to prosecutors, her claim that a friend named Sylvia visited her for coffee and tamales on the night of the murders, and potential manipulation of the Pavelic tape recording. Lopez is evasive throughout, frequently responding 'I don't remember, sir' or 'if you say so, sir,' while also delivering several unintentionally comic lines that draw courtroom laughter.

# 1 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. ALL PARTIES ARE AGAIN PRESENT. MISS ROSA LOPEZ IS AGAIN ON THE WITNESS STAND. GOOD MORNING AGAIN, MISS LOPEZ.

# 2 ROSA LOPEZ:

GOOD MORNING, SIR.

# 3 THE COURT:

AND I WILL REMIND YOU THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH.

# 4 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES, SIR.

# 5 THE COURT:

MR. DARDEN, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.

# 6 MR. DARDEN:

THANK YOU.

# 7 Q:

MISS LOPEZ, WHEN YOU LEFT THE SALINGER'S, YOU PACKED YOUR CLOTHES UP?

# 8 A:

I ALREADY HAD IT PARKED, SIR.

# 9 Q:

SO YOU JUST GRABBED YOUR BAGS AND LEFT, CORRECT?

# 10 A:

NOT EVERYTHING, SIR. I HAD MANY THINGS THAT HAD NOT BEEN PACKED YET, SO --

# 11 Q:

WELL, DID YOU ONLY TAKE YOUR CLOTHES WITH YOU WHEN YOU LEFT?

# 12 A:

I TOOK EVERYTHING, SIR.

# 13 Q:

WHAT IS EVERYTHING?

# 14 A:

THINGS THAT I HAVE, SIR, JUNK I HAVE.

# 15 Q:

DID YOU TAKE ANY FURNITURE?

# 16 A:

I DON'T HAVE A HOUSE TO LIVE IN. I DON'T HAVE FURNITURE, SIR.

# 17 Q:

SO YOU ONLY TOOK YOUR CLOTHES AND YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS AND YOUR PERSONAL PAPERS?

# 18 A:

YES, SIR.

# 19 Q:

OKAY. NOW, YOU AND I SPOKE HERE IN COURT LAST FRIDAY, CORRECT?

# 20 A:

YES, SIR.

# 21 Q:

OKAY. AND WE ARE SPEAKING HERE IN COURT TODAY, RIGHT?

# 22 A:

I THINK SO.

# 23 Q:

OKAY. OKAY. YOU HAVE NEVER GIVEN MISS CLARK A FACE-TO-FACE INTERVIEW, CORRECT?

# 24 A:

SHE HAS NEVER ASKED ME FOR ONE, SIR.

# 25 Q:

OKAY. YOU HAVE NEVER GIVEN ME A FACE-TO-FACE INTERVIEW, CORRECT?

# 26 A:

THAT IS WHAT I HAVE MY ATTORNEY FOR, SIR.

# 27 Q:

A VERY GOOD ATTORNEY, MISS LOPEZ.

# 28 MR. COCHRAN:

WAS HE TESTIFYING, YOUR HONOR?

# 29 THE COURT:

HE IS.

# 30 MR. DARDEN:

MR. COCHRAN IS A VERY GOOD ATTORNEY, YOUR HONOR.

# 31 MR. COCHRAN:

I AGREE, SO I WILL MOVE TO STRIKE THAT.

# 32 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: DID -- DID -- DID MR. JOHNNIE TELL YOU NOT TO TALK TO ME?

# 33 A:

NO, SIR.

# 34 Q:

WELL, DID HE TELL MR. JONES TO TELL YOU NOT TO TALK TO ME?

# 35 MR. COCHRAN:

JUST A MOMENT. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION, HEARSAY.

# 36 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. DO YOU WANT TO REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

# 37 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: DID SOMEONE TELL YOU NOT TO TALK TO ME?

# 38 A:

NO, SIR.

# 39 Q:

ARE YOU AWARE THAT I HAVE ASKED YOUR ATTORNEY MANY, MANY TIMES FOR PERMISSION TO SPEAK WITH YOU?

# 40 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I THINK THE BEST PERSON TO ASK THAT WOULD BE THE ATTORNEY, MR. JONES.

# 41 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 42 ROSA LOPEZ:

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOU.

# 43 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, ARE YOU AWARE THAT I ASKED MR. JONES TO ASK YOU IF IT WAS OKAY IF YOU AND I TALKED?

# 44 A:

I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT UNTIL NOW, SIR.

# 45 Q:

SO NOBODY EVER TOLD YOU THAT I WANTED TO TALK WITH YOU, CORRECT?

# 46 A:

NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, SIR.

# 47 Q:

OKAY. BUT YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO MR. JOHNNIE ON MANY OCCASIONS, CORRECT?

# 48 A:

YES, SIR.

# 49 Q:

OKAY. AND YOU SPOKE TO MR. DOUGLAS THERE ALSO?

# 50 A:

YES, SIR.

# 51 Q:

OKAY. YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC?

# 52 A:

YES, SIR.

# 53 Q:

AND MR. MC KENNA?

# 54 A:

YES, SIR.

# 55 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU SPEAK TO MR. BAILEY?

# 56 A:

YES, SIR.

# 57 Q:

OKAY. YOU SPOKE TO ALL THE LAWYERS IN THE ROOM BUT MISS CLARK AND I; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 58 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. SHE SPOKE TO HIM LAST FRIDAY AND SHE IS SPEAKING TO HIM NOW.

# 59 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 60 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES, SIR.

# 61 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WHERE DID YOU GO DURING THE BREAK WE JUST HAD A FEW MOMENTS AGO?

# 62 A:

BEHIND THE OFFICE, SIR.

# 63 Q:

YOU WENT TO A ROOM LOCATED DIRECTLY BEHIND THIS COURTROOM?

# 64 A:

YES, SIR.

# 65 Q:

OKAY. IS THAT CALLED THE JURY ROOM?

# 66 A:

I DON'T KNOW, SIR.

# 67 Q:

OKAY. IS THERE A LARGE TABLE IN THERE?

# 68 A:

A ROUND TABLE, SIR.

# 69 Q:

OKAY. AND ARE THERE APPROXIMATELY TWELVE CHAIRS LOCATED IN THAT ROOM?

# 70 MR. COCHRAN:

NO. OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. HE HAS TO BE IN THE ROOM. OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.

# 71 THE COURT:

HE IS ASSUMING FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

# 72 MR. COCHRAN:

ASSUMING FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

# 73 MR. DARDEN:

THIS IS CROSS-EXAMINATION. I'M ASKING THE WITNESS A QUESTION.

# 74 THE COURT:

GO AHEAD. THERE IS NO DISPUTE THAT THAT IS THE ROOM BACK THERE. THERE IS NO DISPUTE IT IS THE JURY ROOM, MR. COCHRAN. IS THAT A STIPULATION?

# 75 MR. COCHRAN:

I'M NOT TESTIFYING, COUNSEL.

# 76 THE COURT:

PROCEED.

# 77 MR. DARDEN:

IS THAT A STIPULATION.

# 78 THE COURT:

I'M JUST SAYING IT IS A MINOR POINT. OBVIOUSLY SINCE WE NOW HAVE 22 JURORS, THERE ARE 22 CHAIRS BACK THERE, OTHER THAN THAT MINOR POINT.

# 79 MR. DARDEN:

OKAY. THANK YOU.

# 80 Q:

WHEN YOU WENT INTO THAT ROOM, DID YOU GO INTO THAT ROOM WITH MR. JOHNNIE HERE?

# 81 A:

I WENT IN THERE FIRST, SIR.

# 82 Q:

OKAY. DID MR. JOHNNIE GO IN AFTER YOU?

# 83 A:

YES, WITH MY ATTORNEY, SIR.

# 84 Q:

OKAY. AND WHO ELSE WENT INTO THE ROOM WITH YOU?

# 85 A:

IRMA, SIR.

# 86 Q:

IRMA?

# 87 A:

YES, SIR.

# 88 Q:

OKAY. MISS HAMBURGER, DID SHE GO INTO THE ROOM?

# 89 A:

THAT IS WHY I AM REFERRING TO MY ATTORNEY, SIR.

# 90 Q:

OKAY. OKAY. WHO ELSE WENT INTO THE ROOM?

# 91 A:

THE GENTLEMAN, MR. BILLER, THE GENTLEMAN HERE, THE TWO ATTORNEYS THAT ARE HERE.

# 92 Q:

MR. DOUGLAS AND MR. BAILEY?

# 93 A:

YES, SIR.

# 94 Q:

OKAY. DID ANYONE ELSE GO INTO THE ROOM?

# 95 A:

NO, SIR.

# 96 Q:

OKAY. AFTER YOU WENT INTO THE ROOM, DID THEY CLOSE THE DOOR?

# 97 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 98 Q:

DID THEY CLOSE THE DOOR AFTER YOU WENT INTO THE ROOM?

# 99 A:

OH, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY CLOSED IT, SIR.

# 100 Q:

OKAY. WELL, YOU HAD A TALK WITH ALL OF THESE LAWYERS BACK THERE IN THE JURY ROOM, CORRECT?

# 101 A:

WITH MR. COCKER, SIR.

# 102 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY?

# 103 A:

NO, SIR.

# 104 Q:

WHAT DID YOU TALK ABOUT?

# 105 A:

WE TALKED ABOUT MY ALWAYS TELLING THE TRUTH, SIR. THAT IS WHAT I'M SAYING NOW, SIR.

KEY QUOTE

# 106 (LAUGHTER.)

# 107 THE COURT:

MR. DARDEN.

# 108 MR. DARDEN:

I APOLOGIZE.

# 109 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, THAT IS -- YOUR HONOR, THAT IS TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE. YOUR HONOR, TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE.

# 110 MR. DARDEN:

THAT WAS NOT APPROPRIATE. I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT.

# 111 MR. COCHRAN:

MAY WHATEVER THAT WAS BE STRICKEN FROM THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR?

# 112 THE COURT:

IT WILL BE.

# 113 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WHO TOLD YOU TO ALWAYS TALK ABOUT TELLING THE TRUTH?

# 114 A:

I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD THAT BY ALL OF THEM, SIR.

# 115 Q:

AND DID THEY TELL YOU THAT LAST YEAR WHEN YOU SPOKE TO THEM?

# 116 MR. COCHRAN:

ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, THAT HE SPOKE TO HER LAST YEAR.

# 117 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. IT IS IN THE RECORD. 1994 WHEN THE FIRST INTERVIEW TOOK PLACE.

# 118 MR. COCHRAN:

HE SAYS "WHEN THEY." TALKING NOW ABOUT US, YOUR HONOR. HE DIDN'T TALK TO HER.

# 119 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. OVERRULED.

# 120 MR. COCHRAN:

OKAY.

# 121 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: IS THAT WHAT THEY TOLD YOU LAST YEAR?

# 122 A:

FROM THE FIRST TIME THAT I SAW THEM, SIR.

# 123 Q:

WAS THAT LAST YEAR, 1994?

# 124 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER IF I SAW A GENTLEMAN IN THE YEAR, '94.

# 125 Q:

OKAY. YOU SAW MR. JOHNNIE IN '94?

# 126 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER IF I SAW HIM, SIR.

# 127 Q:

YOU SAW MR. DOUGLAS IN '94?

# 128 A:

NO, SIR.

# 129 Q:

YOU SAW MR. SHAPIRO IN '94?

# 130 A:

NO, SIR.

# 131 Q:

DID YOU HEAR MR. JOHNNY'S OPENING STATEMENT ON JANUARY 23RD?

# 132 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 133 Q:

IN THIS CASE?

# 134 A:

I WAS WORKING. I DIDN'T HEAR IT, SIR.

# 135 Q:

OKAY. WELL, HAD YOU SPOKEN TO MR. JOHNNIE PRIOR TO HEARING YOUR NAME ON TELEVISION?

# 136 A:

YES, SIR.

# 137 Q:

OKAY. WHERE DID YOU FIRST SPEAK TO MR. JOHNNIE?

# 138 A:

AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE.

# 139 Q:

WAS MR. JOHNNIE THERE THAT DAY WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC?

# 140 A:

WHAT WAS THAT YOU SAID?

# 141 Q:

OKAY. WAS MR. JOHNNIE AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE THE FIRST DAY THAT YOU SPOKE TO MR. BILL?

# 142 A:

NO, SIR.

# 143 Q:

OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WELL, WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. JOHNNIE THE FIRST TIME, WAS THAT IN THE SAME OFFICE THAT YOU HAD SPOKEN TO MR. BILL PREVIOUSLY?

# 144 A:

YES, SIR.

# 145 Q:

WHO ELSE WAS PRESENT WITH YOURSELF AND MR. JOHNNIE?

# 146 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 147 Q:

WELL, WAS THERE ANOTHER LAWYER PRESENT?

# 148 A:

UP UNTIL NOW THERE WERE OTHER PERSONS THERE, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW IF THEY WERE ATTORNEYS OR NOT.

# 149 Q:

DO YOU SEE ANY OF THOSE OTHER PERSONS HERE IN COURT NOW?

# 150 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 151 Q:

YOU ONLY REMEMBER MR. JOHNNIE?

# 152 A:

YES, SIR.

# 153 Q:

WAS CATHY RANDA PRESENT?

# 154 A:

NO, SIR.

# 155 Q:

WAS MR. MC KENNA PRESENT?

# 156 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 157 Q:

WAS IRMA PRESENT?

# 158 THE INTERPRETER:

WHO?

# 159 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: IRMA?

# 160 A:

NO, SIR.

# 161 Q:

DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM REMEMBERING THINGS?

# 162 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT TO THAT. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.

# 163 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 164 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, DO YOU HAVE A FAULTY MEMORY?

# 165 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT, YOUR HONOR. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

# 166 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 167 ROSA LOPEZ:

NOT -- NO, SIR, NOT THAT I BELIEVE SO.

# 168 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: MR. COCHRAN TOLD YOU TO TELL THE TRUTH WHEN YOU TESTIFIED, CORRECT?

# 169 A:

YES, SIR.

# 170 Q:

LET'S TALK ABOUT SYLVIA.

# 171 A:

YES, SIR.

# 172 Q:

WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC THE FIRST TIME, WAS THE ENTIRE INTERVIEW TAPED?

# 173 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.

# 174 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 175 ROSA LOPEZ:

I DON'T KNOW, SIR.

# 176 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, YOU LISTENED TO YOUR TAPED INTERVIEW WITH MR. PAVELIC JUST THE OTHER DAY, CORRECT?

# 177 A:

YES, SIR.

# 178 Q:

DID THAT TAPE CONTAIN EVERYTHING YOU AND HE TALKED ABOUT THAT DAY?

# 179 A:

NO, SIR.

# 180 Q:

THERE WERE OTHER THINGS THAT THE TWO OF YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT IS NOT ON THE TAPE, CORRECT?

# 181 A:

YES, SIR.

# 182 Q:

AND WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT THOSE OTHER THINGS THE TAPE WAS ON, CORRECT?

# 183 A:

I DON'T KNOW, SIR.

# 184 MR. COCHRAN:

CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

# 185 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 186 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, YOU SAW MR. BILL MESS AROUND WITH THE TAPE RECORDER?

# 187 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. THAT IS NOT EVEN A LEGAL --

# 188 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 189 MR. COCHRAN:

I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.

# 190 THE COURT:

THANK YOU. SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION. "MESS AROUND" IS KIND OF A VAGUE TERM.

# 191 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, WHAT DID YOU SEE MR. BILL DO WITH THE TAPE RECORDER?

# 192 MR. COCHRAN:

ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, HE DID ANYTHING WITH IT.

# 193 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. THERE HAS ALREADY BEEN TESTIMONY TO THAT.

# 194 ROSA LOPEZ:

THE FIRST TIME, SIR? ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST TIME?

# 195 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: YES, YES, THE FIRST TIME?

# 196 A:

I SAW THAT HE PUSHED THE BUTTON AND THAT'S IT.

# 197 Q:

OKAY. OKAY. WELL, DID YOU HAVE A TALK WITH HIM PRIOR TO THE PUSHING OF THE BUTTON?

# 198 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 199 Q:

IS IT THAT YOU DON'T REMEMBER OR IS IT THAT YOU JUST DON'T WANT TO TELL IS?

# 200 MR. COCHRAN:

JUST A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T REMEMBER.

# 201 THE COURT:

YES, IT IS.

# 202 MR. COCHRAN:

IS THAT SUSTAINED?

# 203 THE COURT:

YES. I SAID YES, IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 204 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: TELL US THE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU TOLD MR. BILL THAT AREN'T ON THE TAPE.

# 205 A:

OH, ASK ME, SIR, BECAUSE I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 206 Q:

WELL, IF YOU DON'T REMEMBER, HOW IS IT THEN THAT YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE THINGS THAT YOU TOLD HIM THAT ARE NOT ON THE TAPE?

# 207 A:

ASK ME WHATEVER YOU WANT, SIR, BUT I CANNOT ANSWER THAT FOR YOU.

# 208 Q:

DOES IT APPEAR TO YOU THAT THERE ARE THINGS THAT WERE SAID ON THE TAPE THAT ARE NO LONGER ON THE TAPE?

# 209 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 210 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 211 MR. COCHRAN:

THAT IS --

# 212 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. THERE IS AN ASSUMPTION THERE THAT SOMETHING HAS BEEN TAKEN OUT OF THE TAPE. THERE IS NO FOUNDATION FOR THAT --

# 213 MR. DARDEN:

OKAY.

# 214 THE COURT:

-- BY THE WAY THE QUESTION IS PHRASED.

# 215 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU TESTIFIED THE OTHER DAY, YOU MADE NO MENTION OF SYLVIA, CORRECT?

# 216 A:

NO, SIR.

# 217 Q:

YOU DID NOT MENTION HER NAME?

# 218 A:

NO, SIR.

# 219 Q:

AND ON THE TAPE OF YOUR INTERVIEW WITH MR. BILL THERE WAS NO MENTION OF SYLVIA, CORRECT?

# 220 A:

NO, SIR.

# 221 Q:

DID YOU TELL MR. BILL ABOUT SYLVIA?

# 222 A:

YES, SIR.

# 223 Q:

AND DID YOU TELL HIM ABOUT SYLVIA DURING THAT FIRST CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WITH HIM?

# 224 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 225 Q:

WELL, WHEN DID YOU TELL MR. BILL ABOUT SYLVIA?

# 226 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE OR THE TIME, SIR, BECAUSE A LOT OF TIME HAS PASSED.

# 227 Q:

WELL, YOU ONLY HAD TWO CONVERSATIONS WITH MR. BILL, CORRECT?

# 228 A:

YES, SIR.

# 229 Q:

WAS IT THE FIRST TIME OR THE SECOND TIME?

# 230 A:

THE SECOND TIME, SIR.

# 231 Q:

AND THAT SECOND INTERVIEW YOU HAD WITH MR. BILL WAS IN AUGUST, CORRECT?

# 232 A:

IF YOU SAY SO, SIR, THAT IS WHAT IT WILL BE.

KEY QUOTE

# 233 Q:

IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID TO MR. BILL, "IF YOU SAY SO, THAT IS THE WAY IT WILL BE"?

# 234 A:

IT IS JUST THAT HE ASKS ME DIFFERENTLY, SIR.

# 235 Q:

IN AUGUST YOU TOLD MR. BILL THAT YOU HAD A FRIEND NAMED SYLVIA, CORRECT?

# 236 A:

YES, SIR.

# 237 Q:

AND YOU TOLD MR. BILL THAT SYLVIA CAME BY YOUR HOUSE FOR COFFEE?

# 238 A:

SHE CAME TO HAVE A CUP OF COFFEE WITH ME, SIR.

# 239 Q:

THE NIGHT OF THE MURDERS SYLVIA CAME TO YOUR HOUSE FOR A CUP OF COFFEE?

# 240 MR. COCHRAN:

ASSUMES -- NEVER MIND. WITHDRAWN.

# 241 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES, SIR.

# 242 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: AND THAT WAS AFTER NINE O'CLOCK, CORRECT?

# 243 A:

AT ABOUT 8:30, SIR, OR 8:45, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

# 244 Q:

OKAY. WELL, DID YOU TELL MR. -- MR. PAVELIC THAT YOU -- THAT YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON'S CAR BETWEEN 8:30 AND NINE O'CLOCK?

# 245 A:

WHAT CAR ARE YOU REFERRING TO, SIR?

# 246 Q:

WELL, DID YOU TELL MR. PAVELIC THAT YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON DRIVE OFF BETWEEN 8:30 AND NINE O'CLOCK?

# 247 MR. COCHRAN:

CAN WE HAVE WHICH CONVERSATION HE IS TALKING ABOUT?

# 248 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 249 THE INTERPRETER:

REPEAT YOUR QUESTION, PLEASE.

# 250 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: IN YOUR SECOND INTERVIEW DID YOU TELL MR. PAVELIC THAT YOU SAW MISS LOPEZ DROVE OFF?

# 251 MR. COCHRAN:

HE MISSPOKE, YOUR HONOR. HE SAID "LOPEZ."

# 252 MR. DARDEN:

YES, I DID MISSPEAK MYSELF.

# 253 THE COURT:

REPHRASE.

# 254 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: IN YOUR SECOND INTERVIEW DID YOU TELL MR. BILL THAT YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON DRIVE OFF BETWEEN 8:30 AND 9:00?

# 255 A:

YES, SIR.

# 256 Q:

AND YOU TOLD HIM THAT SOMETIME AFTER THAT SYLVIA CAME BY, CORRECT?

# 257 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS BEFORE OR AFTER, SIR.

# 258 Q:

WELL, YOU REMEMBERED WHEN YOU TALKED TO MR. BILL, DIDN'T YOU?

# 259 A:

YES, SIR.

# 260 Q:

OKAY. YOU TOLD MR. BILL 8:30 TO 9:00 WAS THE TIME THAT YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON DRIVE OFF, CORRECT?

# 261 A:

YES, SIR.

# 262 Q:

OKAY. AND THE REASON YOU SAID 8:30 TO 9:00 IS BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T SURE OF THE EXACT TIME, CORRECT?

# 263 A:

YES, SIR.

# 264 Q:

OKAY. YOU WERE GIVING HIM YOUR BEST ESTIMATE, CORRECT?

# 265 A:

THAT IS WHAT I TOLD HIM, SIR.

# 266 Q:

OKAY. THE LONGER TIME GOES BY THE HARDER IT IS FOR YOU TO REMEMBER THE EXACT TIME IN WHICH THINGS OCCURRED, CORRECT?

# 267 A:

IF THAT IS WHAT YOU SAY, SIR, THAT IS FINE.

# 268 Q:

THAT IS WHAT I'M ASKING YOU.

# 269 A:

IF YOU SAY SO, SIR, YES.

# 270 Q:

SO THE LONGER THAT -- STRIKE THAT. AND YOU TOLD MR. BILL THAT SYLVIA CAME BY ABOUT FIFTEEN MINUTES OR TEN TO FIFTEEN MINUTES AFTER MR. SIMPSON DROVE OFF?

# 271 A:

I TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS BEFORE THE GENTLEMAN LEFT, SIR.

# 272 Q:

WHAT GENTLEMAN?

# 273 A:

MR. SIMPSON, SIR.

# 274 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 275 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: DIDN'T YOU TELL MR. PAVELIC THAT SYLVIA CAME OVER AFTER MR. SIMPSON DROVE AWAY?

# 276 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 277 Q:

YOU KNOW THAT I'VE TALKED TO SYLVIA, DON'T YOU?

# 278 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT TO THAT, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 279 THE COURT:

REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

# 280 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: ARE YOU AWARE THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO SYLVIA?

# 281 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, IS THAT LIKE SOME KIND OF -- I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.

# 282 MR. DARDEN:

I HAVE OBJECTED TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION 150 TIMES.

# 283 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. OVERRULED. HAVE A SEAT, MR. COCHRAN.

# 284 ROSA LOPEZ:

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU TALKED, SIR, BUT SHE TOLD ME THAT SOMEONE HAD TALKED TO HER.

# 285 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. AND YOU SAW HER HERE IN COURT THE OTHER DAY, CORRECT?

# 286 THE INTERPRETER:

EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. MAY I HAVE THAT LAST QUESTION REPEATED, PLEASE?

# 287 THE COURT:

YES.

# 288 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU SAW HER HERE IN COURT THE OTHER DAY, CORRECT?

# 289 A:

YES, SIR.

# 290 Q:

AND YOU SAY MR. JOHNNIE TOLD YOU TO TELL THE TRUTH, CORRECT?

# 291 A:

YES, SIR.

# 292 Q:

THE TRUTH IS, IS THAT SYLVIA DID NOT COME TO YOUR HOUSE FOR COFFEE, CORRECT?

# 293 MR. COCHRAN:

I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THIS QUESTION AS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.

# 294 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 295 MR. COCHRAN:

THE QUESTION IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 296 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 297 ROSA LOPEZ:

WE HAD A COFFEE AND WE ATE TAMALES, SIR.

KEY QUOTE

# 298 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: AND HOW LONG WAS SYLVIA AT THE HOUSE?

# 299 A:

FOR A VERY SHORT TIME.

# 300 Q:

HOW LONG?

# 301 A:

I DON'T KNOW.

# 302 Q:

HOW MANY TAMALES DID YOU EAT?

# 303 A:

WELL, SINCE I'M SO SKINNY I ATE ONE, SIR.

KEY QUOTE

# 304 Q:

THE TRUTH IS THAT SYLVIA HAS NEVER BEEN TO THE SALINGER'S, CORRECT?

# 305 A:

SHE HAS COME OVER MANY TIMES, SIR.

# 306 Q:

SHE HAS NEVER BEEN INSIDE THE HOUSE, CORRECT?

# 307 A:

YES, SHE HAS, SIR.

# 308 Q:

SHE HAS NEVER BEEN INSIDE THE KITCHEN, CORRECT?

# 309 A:

I THINK SHE KNOWS IT BETTER THAN II DO.

# 310 Q:

SHE HAS NEVER --

# 311 (LAUGHTER)

# 312 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: SYLVIA HAS MET THE SALINGERS; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 313 A:

NO, SIR.

# 314 Q:

AND SYLVIA OWNS A CAR, DOES SHE?

# 315 A:

NO, SIR.

# 316 Q:

AND SHE LIVES HOW MANY BLOCKS AWAY FROM THE SALINGERS?

# 317 A:

I HAVEN'T COUNTED THEM, SIR.

# 318 Q:

BUT YOU HAVE BEEN TO THE HOUSE WHERE SHE WORKS, CORRECT?

# 319 A:

YES, SIR.

# 320 Q:

OKAY. AND THE PEOPLE THAT OWN THAT HOUSE TOLD YOU NOT TO COME BACK TO THEIR HOME, CORRECT?

# 321 MR. COCHRAN:

CALLS FOR HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.

# 322 THE COURT:

WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE OF THAT?

# 323 MR. DARDEN:

I WILL WITHDRAW IT FOR NOW, YOUR HONOR.

# 324 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 325 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: SYLVIA WAS AT THE SALINGER'S HAVING TAMALES AND COFFEE FOR TEN MINUTES; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 326 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 327 Q:

OKAY. WELL, DID YOU DRIVE HER HOME?

# 328 A:

YES, SIR.

# 329 Q:

AND WHAT TIME DID YOU DRIVE HER HOME?

# 330 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER RIGHT NOW, SIR.

# 331 Q:

WELL, WHEN YOU DROVE HER HOME, DID YOU SEE THE BRONCO?

# 332 A:

I SAW A WHITE CAR PARKED UP THE STREET, SIR.

# 333 Q:

WELL, WHEN YOU DROVE SYLVIA HOME DID YOU SEE THE WHITE BRONCO YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER?

# 334 A:

YES, SIR.

# 335 Q:

WAS THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW THE BRONCO THAT NIGHT?

# 336 A:

I SAW THE BRONCO SOMETIME PAST 8:00, SIR.

# 337 Q:

SO WHEN YOU TOOK SYLVIA HOME, THAT WAS THE SECOND OR THIRD TIME THAT YOU HAVE SEEN THE BRONCO?

# 338 A:

THE SECOND TIME, SIR.

# 339 Q:

SO YOU HAD SEEN THE BRONCO EVEN EARLIER THAN THAT?

# 340 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.

# 341 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. VAGUE. VAGUE AS TO -- YES. REPHRASE THE QUESTION, "BEFORE THAT."

# 342 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WHY IS THERE NO MENTION OF SYLVIA ON THE TAPED INTERVIEW, IF YOU KNOW?

# 343 A:

BECAUSE THE GENTLEMAN DID NOT ASK ME.

# 344 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A TWO-PAGE STATEMENT HERE. I WOULD LIKE TO MARK IT NEXT IN ORDER. IS THAT 88?

# 345 MR. COCHRAN:

MAY I SEE IT, COUNSEL?

# 346 THE COURT:

PEOPLE'S 88.

# 347 MR. DARDEN:

JULY 29TH STATEMENT FROM MR. PAVELIC, A COPY OF THE ONE MR. COCHRAN GAVE ME.

# 348 (PEO'S 88 FOR ID = 2-PG STMT/7/29/94 FRM PAVELIC)

# 349 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 350 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, DO YOU READ ENGLISH?

# 351 A:

NO, SIR. I CAN BARELY READ SPANISH.

# 352 MR. DARDEN:

I'M GOING TO ASK THE INTERPRETER TO READ THE FOURTH LINE OF THAT DOCUMENT FROM THE TOP TO YOU.

# 353 Q:

THE DATE IS INDICATED AS JULY 29, 1994, CORRECT?

# 354 A:

YES, SIR.

# 355 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, MAY I ASK AN INQUIRY? FOR WHAT PURPOSE IS THIS, YOUR HONOR? THIS IS PAVELIC'S STATEMENT TO SHAPIRO. FIND OUT WHAT PURPOSE IS THERE. THERE IS NO INDICATION OF ANY REFRESHING RECOLLECTION.

# 356 THE COURT:

IT COULD BE A PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENT.

# 357 MR. COCHRAN:

COULD WE HEAR THAT? COULD WE HAVE AN OFFER?

# 358 THE COURT:

LET ME SEE COUNSEL HERE AT THE SIDE BAR WITH THE REPORTER.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Rosa Lopez

WE TALKED ABOUT MY ALWAYS TELLING THE TRUTH, SIR. THAT IS WHAT I'M SAYING NOW, SIR.

Lopez's explanation of what was discussed in the jury room during a break — a room she entered with Cochran, Douglas, Bailey, and others — draws courtroom laughter and is immediately stricken from the record. The irony is devastating given Darden's ongoing effort to impeach her credibility.

Rosa Lopez

WE HAD A COFFEE AND WE ATE TAMALES, SIR.

Lopez's insistence that Sylvia visited the night of the murders, with a specific domestic detail (tamales), is the centerpiece of Darden's attack. He is implying Sylvia's visit never happened — and Sylvia herself appears to have contradicted Lopez.

Rosa Lopez

WELL, SINCE I'M SO SKINNY I ATE ONE, SIR.

Lopez's deadpan response to 'How many tamales did you eat?' — a moment of unintentional comedy that briefly breaks the tension during a serious credibility attack.

Rosa Lopez

IF YOU SAY SO, SIR, THAT IS WHAT IT WILL BE.

Lopez's response to whether the second Pavelic interview was in August — a pattern of deference that Darden immediately turns against her, noting this is essentially the same attitude she used with Pavelic, undermining the reliability of her original statements.

Rosa Lopez

I THINK SHE KNOWS IT BETTER THAN I DO.

Lopez's quip when Darden challenges whether Sylvia has ever been inside the kitchen — prompts courtroom laughter while inadvertently undermining her claim that Sylvia was a close, frequent visitor.

Evidence (2)

People's 88

Two-page written statement from Bill Pavelic dated July 29, 1994, originally provided to Robert Shapiro — Cochran gave Darden a copy

Marked for identification; Darden begins to use it for potential prior inconsistent statement impeachment before the session breaks to sidebar

Informal

Taped audio recording of Rosa Lopez's interview(s) with defense investigator Bill Pavelic

Discussed — Darden establishes the tape does not contain all of what Lopez told Pavelic, including any mention of Sylvia, and probes whether Pavelic manipulated the recording

Notable Exchanges (5)

Christopher Darden•Johnnie Cochran

Darden compliments Lopez's attorney as 'a very good attorney'; Cochran objects that Darden is testifying and moves to strike; Darden then agrees Cochran is a very good attorney, prompting more objection and laughter.

sardonic

Christopher Darden•Rosa Lopez

Darden establishes Lopez spoke to Cochran, Douglas, Pavelic, McKenna, and Bailey — every defense lawyer — but never once agreed to a face-to-face interview with Darden or Clark, despite Darden's repeated requests through her attorney.

strategic

Christopher Darden•Rosa Lopez•Johnnie Cochran

Darden questions what was discussed when Lopez went into the jury room with Cochran, Douglas, and Bailey during a break. Lopez says they only talked about 'always telling the truth,' drawing courtroom laughter and immediate striking of the response.

revealing

Christopher Darden•Rosa Lopez

Darden methodically attacks the Sylvia alibi: Sylvia is not mentioned on the Pavelic tape, not mentioned in Lopez's direct testimony, and Darden implies Sylvia herself has contradicted Lopez's account when he spoke to her.

devastating

Lance A. Ito•Johnnie Cochran

Cochran objects to Darden's question about the number of chairs in the jury room as 'assuming facts not in evidence.' Ito retorts that there is no dispute about the room and notes there are now 22 chairs given 22 jurors.

procedural with edge

Light Moments (3)

Rosa Lopez

Lopez explains that during the jury room meeting with defense lawyers during the break, they only talked about 'always telling the truth' — drawing courtroom laughter. Cochran objects and the response is stricken.

Rosa Lopez

When Darden asks how many tamales Lopez ate during Sylvia's alleged visit, Lopez replies 'Well, since I'm so skinny I ate one, sir,' drawing laughter.

Rosa Lopez

When Darden challenges whether Sylvia has ever been inside the kitchen, Lopez responds 'I think she knows it better than I do,' again drawing laughter.

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Rosa Lopez

Bias / selective cooperation

Darden establishes Lopez spoke to every defense lawyer (Cochran, Douglas, Bailey, Pavelic, McKenna) but refused all prosecution interview requests, implying she is a coached defense witness rather than an independent one.

⚔ Rosa Lopez

Prior inconsistent statement / fabrication

Darden attacks the Sylvia alibi by showing Sylvia was never mentioned on the Pavelic tape or in Lopez's direct testimony, that Lopez cannot remember when she told Pavelic about Sylvia, and that Darden has spoken to Sylvia directly — implying Sylvia does not corroborate Lopez's account.

⚔ Rosa Lopez

Memory inconsistency / evasiveness

Darden repeatedly catches Lopez saying 'I don't remember, sir' or 'if you say so, sir' on basic factual matters, then asking how she can claim to remember specific alibi details (the Bronco, the time, Sylvia's visit) if her general memory is so poor.

⚔ Bill Pavelic (defense investigator)

Evidence tampering / incomplete recording

Darden establishes through Lopez that she told Pavelic things that are not on the tape, and probes whether Pavelic manipulated the recorder — laying groundwork for a suggestion that the Pavelic tape was selectively recorded.

Witness Demeanor

(NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE) — twice, when asked about the jury room door and about Cochran's opening statement

(LAUGHTER) — courtroom laughs at Lopez's 'always telling the truth' remark about the jury room meeting

(LAUGHTER) — courtroom laughs at Lopez's 'I think she knows it better than I do' kitchen remark

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS) — twice during examination

Objections

13 objections (5 sustained, 5 overruled)

Proceeding 5103 • 358 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103