Cross-examination of Rosa Maria Lopez (part 1)

📄 Cross-examination of Rosa Maria Lopez (part 1) — Thursday, March 2, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\2\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-ROSA-MARI.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 29 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Rosa Maria Lopez (part 2) Cross-examination of Rosa Maria Lopez (part 2) ▶

Witness: Rosa Lopez
Examiner: Christopher Darden
Called by: Defense • Date: Thursday, March 2, 1995 • Utterances: 602

Christopher Darden cross-examines Rosa Maria Lopez, attacking her credibility through inconsistencies in her prior testimony and her unemployment insurance application. Darden reveals she filed for unemployment while claiming she was leaving the country, used her son's address on the form, and that the specific Bronco sighting time of 10:15-10:20 may have been suggested to her by defense investigator Bill Pavelic rather than recalled independently. The examination is marked by constant sparring between Darden and Cochran, with Darden repeatedly accusing Cochran of making speaking objections to coach the witness.

# 1 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MR. COCHRAN.

# 2 ROSA LOPEZ:

THANK YOU, SIR.

# 3 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN.

# 4 MR. DARDEN:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 5

CROSS-EXAMINATION

# 6

BY MR. DARDEN:

# 7 Q:

GOOD MORNING, MISS LOPEZ.

# 8 A:

GOOD MORNING, SIR.

# 9 Q:

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT TODAY, JUST AS YOU WERE LAST FRIDAY, YOU ARE UNDER OATH?

# 10 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THAT. SHE KNOWS THAT. ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 11 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. PROCEED.

# 12 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES.

# 13 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT OATH, RIGHT?

# 14 MR. COCHRAN:

ASKED AND ANSWERED. JUST ASKED AND ANSWERED.

# 15 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 16 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES.

# 17 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU UNDERSTOOD IT LAST FRIDAY WHEN YOU TESTIFIED?

# 18 A:

YES.

# 19 Q:

AND YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT OATH ON MONDAY WHEN YOU TESTIFIED?

# 20 A:

YES.

# 21 Q:

OKAY. AND YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TRUTH AND A LIE, CORRECT?

# 22 A:

YES.

# 23 Q:

OKAY. WHEN YOU TOLD US LAST FRIDAY THAT YOU HADN'T FILLED OUT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT FORMS, THAT WASN'T TRUE, WAS IT?

# 24 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. SHE SAID SHE HADN'T FILLED THEM OUT AT THAT TIME. I THOUGHT IT HAD TO DO WITH VILLAPANDO.

# 25 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, MR. COCHRAN IS COACHING THIS WITNESS FROM COUNSEL TABLE.

# 26 MR. COCHRAN:

I AM NOT. MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

# 27 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. THANK YOU. PROCEED.

# 28 THE INTERPRETER:

MAY THE QUESTION BE REPEATED, PLEASE?

# 29 THE COURT:

YOU TOLD US LAST FRIDAY YOU HADN'T FILLED OUT THE UNEMPLOYMENT FORMS.

# 30 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: THAT WAS A LIE, CORRECT?

# 31 A:

NO.

# 32 Q:

YOU HAD FILLED OUT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT FORMS, HADN'T YOU?

# 33 A:

I WAS REFERRING TO THE APPLICATION THAT IS -- THAT ONE IS GIVEN FOR ONE TO TAKE IT BACK.

# 34 Q:

OKAY. YOU NEVER APPLIED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT?

# 35 A:

YES.

# 36 Q:

OKAY. YOU TOLD US LAST WEEK THAT YOU WEREN'T TURNING IN YOUR FORMS FOR UNEMPLOYMENT BECAUSE YOU WERE LEAVING THE COUNTRY, CORRECT?

# 37 A:

YES.

# 38 Q:

BUT IN FACT YOU HAD TURNED IN YOUR FORMS, CORRECT?

# 39 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I ASK FOR A TIME ON THAT AS TO WHEN, AT WHAT POINT IT BECOMES RELEVANT.

# 40 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. OVERRULED.

# 41 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: CORRECT?

# 42 A:

NO, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND YOU.

# 43 Q:

WELL --

# 44 MR. COCHRAN:

MAY I SEE THIS, YOUR HONOR?

# 45 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: HAVE YOU FILED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT?

# 46 A:

YES, SIR.

# 47 Q:

AND YOU FILED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT ON WHAT, FEBRUARY 15TH, CORRECT?

# 48 A:

YES.

# 49 Q:

YOU FILED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT KNOWING THAT YOU WERE GOING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY FOR SEVERAL MONTHS, CORRECT?

# 50 A:

IF I WAS GIVEN UNEMPLOYMENT, SIR, THERE WAS NO REASON FOR ME TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

KEY QUOTE

# 51 Q:

ARE YOU AWARE THAT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE HEARING WAS SCHEDULED FOR YESTERDAY, MISS LOPEZ?

# 52 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER BECAUSE I DON'T CARRY THE FORMS WITH ME.

# 53 Q:

DID YOU ATTEND THE HEARING YESTERDAY?

# 54 A:

NO, SIR.

# 55 Q:

SO IF I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY THEN, IF YOU GET UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE YOU WON'T LEAVE THE COUNTRY; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 56 MR. COCHRAN:

THAT IS NOT WHAT SHE SAID, YOUR HONOR.

# 57 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 58 ROSA LOPEZ:

I HAVE THOUGHT OF LEAVING RIGHT AWAY WHEN I AM OUT OF HERE, YOU KNOW.

# 59 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 60 THE COURT:

DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THOSE ITEMS FOR COUNSEL?

# 61 MR. DARDEN:

NO, YOUR HONOR. I ONLY HAVE THE ORIGINAL.

# 62 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. CAN I HAVE MR. TYLER BACK THERE PERHAPS.

# 63 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 64 THE COURT:

AND MR. DARDEN, IF YOU WOULD, FOR THE CLARITY OF THE AUDIO RECORDING, EITHER STAY AT THE MIKE OR USE ONE OF THE WIRELESS MICROPHONES, PLEASE. THE AUDIO IS A LITTLE ON THE LIGHT SIDE WHEN YOU MOVE AWAY FROM THE PODIUM, JUST FOR THE CLARITY OF THE RECORD.

# 65 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 66 MR. DARDEN:

MAY I WAIT?

# 67 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 68 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, IS MR. COCHRAN WEARING MY MICROPHONE?

# 69 THE COURT:

I BELIEVE HE IS.

# 70 MR. COCHRAN:

I DON'T KNOW IF HE HAS HIS NAME ON IT, YOUR HONOR, BUT I WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO TAKE THE MICROPHONE OFF THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME BACK THERE.

# 71 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. I THINK THIS IS A LOAN FROM CHANNEL 4.

# 72 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 73 THE COURT:

MR. SHULMAN.

# 74 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 75 THE COURT:

MR. DARDEN.

# 76 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 77 THE COURT:

IT IS NOT OFTEN THE CAMERA PEOPLE GET ON CAMERA.

# 78 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 79 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WHILE WE WAIT, MISS LOPEZ, WHEN YOU TOLD US LAST WEEK THAT YOU HADN'T FILLED OUT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT FORMS --

# 80 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. IT IS NOT CLEAR AND IT IS NOT A FAIR QUESTION BECAUSE THE QUESTION WAS ASKED -- LET ME JUST SAY THIS -- WAS ASKED IN CONNECTION WITH MISS VILLAPANDO WHEN SHE WAS THERE WITH MISS VILLAPANDO, YOUR HONOR.

# 81 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. YOU CAN CLARIFY THAT ON REDIRECT OR MR. DARDEN CAN ASK SOME ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS AS TO WHEN AND WHERE.

# 82 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, I WOULD OBJECT TO MR. COCHRAN MAKING OBJECTIONS AS IF TO SUGGEST TO THE WITNESS WHAT THE RESPONSE OUGHT TO BE IN THE SITUATION. WE ALL WENT TO LAW SCHOOL. WE ALL KNOW HOW TO MAKE LEGAL OBJECTIONS.

# 83 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 84 MR. DARDEN:

AND I WOULD ASK THE COURT TO REQUIRE MR. COCHRAN TO MAKE LEGAL OBJECTIONS AS OPPOSED TO SPEECHES.

# 85 THE COURT:

THANK YOU. I THINK IT IS WELL TAKEN ON BOTH SIDES. THANK YOU.

# 86 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU TOLD US THAT YOU HAD NOT FILLED OUT THE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FORMS, YOU WANTED US TO THINK THAT YOU HADN'T APPLIED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE, CORRECT?

# 87 MR. COCHRAN:

IT IS IRRELEVANT WHAT HE WANTS. I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION AS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 88 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 89 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU WANT US TO THINK THAT YOU HAD NOT APPLIED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE?

# 90 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT. IT IS VAGUE AND ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 91 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU TESTIFIED LAST WEEK --

# 92 MR. COCHRAN:

I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.

# 93 THE COURT:

IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 94 THE COURT:

YES, IT IS.

# 95 MR. DARDEN:

THIS IS CROSS-EXAMINATION, YOUR HONOR.

# 96 THE COURT:

IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, THE QUESTION, IN ITS FORM.

# 97 MR. COCHRAN:

ALSO ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 98 MR. DARDEN:

STATE OF MIND IS IRRELEVANT?

# 99 THE COURT:

WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION. THE WAY IT IS PHRASED IS ARGUMENTATIVE, "YOU WANTED US TO THINK THAT." WAS YOUR STATE OF MIND X, THAT YOU WANTED US TO BELIEVE.

# 100 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. I OBJECT.

# 101 MR. DARDEN:

ASKING QUESTIONS --

# 102 MR. COCHRAN:

HE SAID HE WENT TO LAW SCHOOL, YOUR HONOR.

# 103 MR. DARDEN:

ASKING QUESTIONS WITH AN INTERPRETER IS AN ART, YOUR HONOR.

# 104 THE COURT:

IT IS.

# 105 MR. DARDEN:

YES, IT IS.

# 106 THE COURT:

PROCEED.

# 107 MR. DARDEN:

THANK YOU.

# 108 Q:

WHY DID YOU TELL US THAT YOU HADN'T FILLED OUT THOSE FORMS WHEN IN FACT YOU KNEW THAT YOU HAD FILLED OUT UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FORMS?

# 109 A:

I WAS REFERRING TO THE APPLICATION THAT ONE IS GIVEN TO TAKE HOME.

# 110 Q:

DID YOU FILL OUT AN APPLICATION AT THE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OFFICE?

# 111 A:

YES.

# 112 Q:

DID YOU INDICATE ON THAT APPLICATION THAT YOU HAD SUDDENLY BECOME UNEMPLOYED?

# 113 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT I SAID, YES.

# 114 Q:

DID YOU CHECK A BOX ON THAT APPLICATION INDICATING THAT YOU WANTED UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE PAYMENTS?

# 115 A:

YES.

# 116 Q:

AND DID YOU INDICATE ON THE APPLICATION THAT YOU HAD BEEN TERMINATED FROM THE SALINGER'S HOME?

# 117 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 118 Q:

WELL, YOU FILLED OUT THOSE FORMS AND FILED THEM ON FEBRUARY 15TH, CORRECT?

# 119 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT DAY IT WAS. (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 120 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: HOW MUCH WERE YOU EXPECTING TO RECEIVE IN UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE?

# 121 A:

I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH -- I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THEY WILL GIVE ME WHENEVER I GO THERE.

# 122 Q:

LAST WEEK YOU TOLD US THAT AFTER YOU LEFT THE SALINGER'S YOU MOVED IN WITH YOUR DAUGHTER?

# 123 A:

YES.

# 124 Q:

AND YOU WERE LIVING THERE ON FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 17TH, CORRECT?

# 125 A:

YES.

# 126 Q:

WHEN YOU FILLED OUT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE APPLICATION YOU DID NOT LIST YOUR DAUGHTER'S ADDRESS ON THE APPLICATION, CORRECT?

# 127 A:

YES.

# 128 Q:

YOU DID NOT LIST THE SALINGER'S RESIDENCE AS YOUR OWN RESIDENCE, CORRECT?

# 129 THE INTERPRETER:

NOT --

# 130 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: ON YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FORM YOU DID NOT INDICATE THAT YOU LIVED AT THE SALINGER HOME?

# 131 A:

I DON'T LIVE WITH THE SALINGERS.

# 132 Q:

OKAY. WELL, YOU WERE LIVING WITH YOUR DAUGHTER ON FEBRUARY 15TH, RIGHT?

# 133 A:

YES.

# 134 Q:

WHOSE ADDRESS IS THIS ON YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE APPLICATION?

# 135 MR. COCHRAN:

ASK COUNSEL TO SHOW HER THE ADDRESS, YOUR HONOR. ASK COUNSEL TO SHOW HER THE ADDRESS; NOT TO SAY IT OUT LOUD.

# 136 THE COURT:

YES, PLEASE.

# 137 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, WHAT IS PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER?

# 138 THE COURT:

MRS. ROBERTSON, PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER?

# 139 THE CLERK:

87.

# 140 THE COURT:

87. DO YOU WANT THIS WHOLE PACKET?

# 141 MR. DARDEN:

YES, THE ENTIRE APPLICATION, YOUR HONOR, MAY IT BE MARKED COLLECTIVELY AS PEOPLE'S 87?

# 142 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 87. THANK YOU, COUNSEL.

# 143 MR. DARDEN:

I'M GOING TO PLACE A SMALL "87" IN THE UPPER RIGHT-HAND CORNER OF THE FIRST PAGE OF THE DOCUMENT.

# 144 (PEO'S 87 FOR ID = UNEMPLOYMENT INS. APPLICATION)

# 145 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, SHOWING WHAT YOU HAS BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 87, DO YOU SEE LINE 2, BOX 6 WHERE IT ASKS FOR YOUR ADDRESS?

# 146 A:

YES.

# 147 Q:

OKAY. READ THAT ADDRESS.

# 148 MR. COCHRAN:

WELL, NO, YOUR HONOR. I ASK THAT SHE NOT HAVE TO READ THAT ADDRESS, YOUR HONOR. SHE CAN READ THE ADDRESS TO HERSELF YOU MEAN?

# 149 THE COURT:

IT IS NOT NECESSARY AT THIS POINT.

# 150 MR. COCHRAN:

NOT --

# 151 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: READ THE ADDRESS TO YOURSELF.

# 152 (WITNESS COMPLIES.)

# 153 Q:

THAT IS NOT YOUR DAUGHTER'S ADDRESS, IS IT?

# 154 A:

NO, NO.

# 155 Q:

THAT IS NOT THE SALINGER'S ADDRESS, IS IT?

# 156 A:

NO.

# 157 Q:

SO YOU WERE LIVING SOMEWHERE ELSE THEN?

# 158 A:

NO, SIR.

# 159 Q:

WHOSE ADDRESS IS THAT?

# 160 A:

IT IS MY SON'S ADDRESS, SIR.

# 161 Q:

YOU WEREN'T LIVING WITH YOUR SON, WERE YOU?

# 162 A:

NO.

# 163 Q:

SO WHEN YOU FILLED OUT THE FORM YOU PUT FALSE INFORMATION ON THE FORM?

# 164 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT. THAT IS HER SON'S ADDRESS. SHE MAY GET HER MAIL THERE. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 165 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 166 MR. COCHRAN:

FALSE INFORMATION?

# 167 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 168 ROSA LOPEZ:

IT IS NOT FALSE, SIR.

# 169 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: THAT IS NOT YOUR ADDRESS, IS IT?

# 170 A:

NO, SIR.

# 171 Q:

OKAY. THE FORM ASKED YOU TO WRITE, QUOTE, YOUR ADDRESS, UNQUOTE, CORRECT?

# 172 A:

YES.

# 173 Q:

BUT YOU WROTE YOUR SON'S ADDRESS INSTEAD, CORRECT?

# 174 A:

YES.

# 175 Q:

SO WERE YOU GOING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND STILL GET UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE WHILE YOU WERE OUT OF THE COUNTRY?

# 176 A:

NO, SIR.

# 177 Q:

ARE YOU AWARE THAT ON THAT FORM AND IN BOLD PRINT -- AND IN BOLD PRINT, THAT IT INDICATES THAT IT IS A VIOLATION OF THE LAW TO MAKE FALSE STATEMENTS ON THAT FORM?

# 178 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.

# 179 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 180 ROSA LOPEZ:

I DIDN'T READ IT, SIR, WHATEVER IS THERE.

# 181 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: YOU DIDN'T READ IT?

# 182 A:

NO.

# 183 Q:

WELL, IT HAS A BOX THAT SAYS "PRINT YOUR FIRST NAME," CORRECT?

# 184 A:

YES, SIR.

# 185 Q:

AND YOU PRINTED YOUR FIRST NAME IN THAT SAME BOX, CORRECT?

# 186 A:

YES, SIR.

# 187 Q:

AND IT HAS A LINE THAT INDICATES WHERE THE CLAIMANT SHOULD SIGN, CORRECT?

# 188 A:

YES.

# 189 Q:

AND YOU SIGNED ON THAT LINE, CORRECT?

# 190 A:

YES.

# 191 Q:

AND YOU ARE THE PERSON CLAIMING UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS, CORRECT?

# 192 A:

YES.

# 193 Q:

SO YOU DID READ THE FORM?

# 194 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. THAT DOESN'T FOLLOW, YOUR HONOR.

# 195 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 196 ROSA LOPEZ:

OH, A LITTLE.

# 197 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, THE BOX HAS -- STRIKE THAT. THE DOCUMENT HAS SEVERAL QUESTIONS LISTED ON THE FACE OF IT, CORRECT?

# 198 A:

YES.

# 199 Q:

AND TO THE RIGHT OF EACH OF THOSE QUESTIONS THERE ARE BOXES TO BE CHECKED "YES" AND "NO," CORRECT?

# 200 A:

YES.

# 201 Q:

AND YOU CHECKED THE APPROPRIATE BOXES, CORRECT?

# 202 A:

YES.

# 203 Q:

OKAY. SO YOU READ THE WHOLE FORM, RIGHT?

# 204 A:

WELL, WHAT I UNDERSTAND.

# 205 Q:

IS THAT YES?

# 206 A:

(IN ENGLISH) YES.

# 207 Q:

YOU DO RECALL THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH, RIGHT?

# 208 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THAT. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.

# 209 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. BUT I THINK WE HAVE EXHAUSTED THAT LINE OF QUESTIONS.

# 210 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES.

# 211 MR. DARDEN:

NOW -- YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK THE WITNESSES ABOUT SOME OF THE INCONSISTENCIES IN HER TESTIMONY LAST WEEK.

# 212 MR. COCHRAN:

I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT, TELLING US WHAT HE WANTS TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT.

# 213 THE COURT:

GO AHEAD AND ASK THE QUESTION. WE WILL SEE IF THERE IS AN OBJECTION.

# 214 MR. COCHRAN:

THAT IS A CONCLUSION ON HIS PART.

# 215 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: LAST WEEK WHEN YOU TESTIFIED --

# 216 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, MAY WE APPROACH ON THAT JUST FOR A MOMENT, PLEASE?

# 217 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 218 MR. COCHRAN:

I HAD ASKED THE COURT EARLIER ABOUT THAT.

# 219 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: YOU TOLD US THAT YOU MADE RESERVATIONS TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY THAT MORNING WHEN IN FACT YOU HAD NOT, CORRECT?

# 220 A:

YES.

# 221 Q:

OKAY. THAT WAS A LIE, CORRECT?

# 222 A:

I DIDN'T REMEMBER THAT I HAD MADE RESERVATIONS PREVIOUSLY.

# 223 Q:

YOU TOLD US THAT YOU HAD MADE RESERVATIONS LAST FRIDAY MORNING, CORRECT?

# 224 A:

YES.

# 225 Q:

BUT YOU HAD NOT, CORRECT?

# 226 A:

YES.

# 227 Q:

AND YOU KNEW THAT, CORRECT?

# 228 A:

YES.

# 229 Q:

AND YOU LIED?

# 230 A:

NO.

# 231 Q:

WELL, WHAT DO YOU CALL IT?

# 232 A:

BECAUSE ONE DOESN'T NEED TO MAKE RESERVATIONS TO GO AROUND THIS TIME. I GO WITH MY MONEY, I BUY THE TICKET AND THEY GIVE IT TO ME FOR THE EVENING.

# 233 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 234 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: NOT ONLY DID YOU NOT MAKE RESERVATIONS LAST FRIDAY MORNING, BUT YOU DIDN'T ADMIT THAT FACT UNTIL I CONFRONTED YOU WITH PROOF --

# 235 MR. COCHRAN:

THIS QUESTION IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.

# 236 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: -- THAT YOU HAD NOT MADE THE RESERVATION?

# 237 MR. COCHRAN:

ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 238 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 239 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: CORRECT?

# 240 A:

(IN ENGLISH) YES.

# 241 THE INTERPRETER:

YES.

# 242 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: NOW, YOU DO UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE STILL HERE TODAY, CORRECT?

# 243 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT TO THAT, YOUR HONOR. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT.

# 244 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 245 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: CORRECT?

# 246 A:

(IN ENGLISH) YES.

# 247 Q:

WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY MR. PAVELIC?

# 248 A:

OH, I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 249 Q:

WELL, DID YOU WRITE THE DATE ON A CALENDAR?

# 250 A:

NO, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN WRITING DATES.

# 251 Q:

WELL, DID SOMETHING ELSE HAPPEN THAT SAME DAY, SOMETHING THAT YOU REFLECT ON AND WHICH MIGHT HELP YOU RECALL THE DATE?

# 252 A:

NO.

# 253 Q:

HOW MANY TIMES WERE YOU INTERVIEWED BY MR. PAVELIC?

# 254 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 255 Q:

WAS IT MORE THAN FIVE TIMES?

# 256 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 257 Q:

WELL, GIVE US AN APPROXIMATE NUMBER?

# 258 MR. COCHRAN:

SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T REMEMBER, YOUR HONOR.

# 259 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 260 ROSA LOPEZ:

MAYBE TWO -- MAYBE TWO TIMES OR -- I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 261 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. MAYBE TWO, MAYBE MORE?

# 262 A:

NO, NO MORE.

# 263 Q:

SO IT IS TWO THEN?

# 264 A:

I BELIEVE.

# 265 Q:

OKAY. WELL, THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY MR. PAVELIC, WHERE DID THAT INTERVIEW TAKE PLACE?

# 266 A:

(IN ENGLISH) AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE.

# 267 THE INTERPRETER:

AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE.

# 268 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: AT MR. O.J. SIMPSON'S OFFICE?

# 269 A:

YES, SIR.

# 270 Q:

OKAY. AND WAS THAT THE WEEK AFTER THE MURDERS OCCURRED?

# 271 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 272 Q:

WELL, DID SOMEONE DRIVE YOU TO MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE?

# 273 A:

YES, SIR.

# 274 Q:

WHO DROVE YOU THERE?

# 275 A:

THE GENTLEMAN'S SECRETARY.

# 276 Q:

MR. SIMPSON'S SECRETARY?

# 277 A:

YES, SIR.

# 278 Q:

THAT WILL BE CATHY RANDA?

# 279 A:

YES, SIR.

# 280 Q:

DID SHE PICK YOU UP SOMEWHERE FIRST?

# 281 A:

YES, SIR.

# 282 Q:

WHERE WERE YOU WHEN SHE PICKED YOU UP?

# 283 A:

AT CLIFFORD, ON CLIFFORD STREET.

# 284 Q:

OKAY. AND WHAT IS ON CLIFFORD STREET?

# 285 A:

THE STREET IS THERE.

# 286 Q:

OKAY. SO YOU MET HER ON THE STREET; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 287 A:

YES, SIR.

# 288 Q:

YOU WAITED AT THE CORNER?

# 289 A:

NOT AT THE CORNER, SIR; IN MY CAR.

# 290 Q:

SO YOU SAT IN YOUR CAR AND WAITED FOR HER TO ARRIVE TO PICK YOU UP?

# 291 A:

SHE WAS ALREADY WAITING FOR ME, SIR.

# 292 Q:

OKAY. WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO MEET HER ON THE STREET?

# 293 A:

I DON'T KNOW.

# 294 Q:

WELL, DID YOU ASK HER TO MEET YOU ON THE STREET?

# 295 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 296 Q:

WELL, DID SHE ASK YOU TO MEET HER ON THE STREET?

# 297 A:

IT IS JUST THAT I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 298 Q:

WELL, THE TWO OF YOU MET ON THE STREET SO THAT NO ONE WOULD KNOW YOU WERE MEETING, CORRECT?

# 299 A:

I DON'T KNOW, SIR.

# 300 Q:

WELL, WERE YOU TRYING TO KEEP THE FACT OF THIS MEETING A SECRET?

# 301 A:

I DON'T KNOW, SIR.

# 302 Q:

WELL, YOU AGREED TO MEET HER ON THE STREET, DIDN'T YOU?

# 303 A:

YES.

# 304 Q:

WHY?

# 305 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 306 Q:

WHY THERE?

# 307 A:

BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I WAS TOLD AND THAT IS WHAT I DID.

KEY QUOTE

# 308 Q:

WELL, WHO TOLD YOU TO MEET HER THERE?

# 309 A:

CATHY.

# 310 Q:

DID MICHELLE TELL YOU TO MEET HER THERE?

# 311 A:

NO.

# 312 Q:

WELL, YOU COULD HAVE MET HER AT THE SALINGER'S, CORRECT?

# 313 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. I'M SURE SHE COULD HAVE.

# 314 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 315 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES.

# 316 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: THEY COULD HAVE PICKED YOU UP IN FRONT OF THE SALINGER'S, CORRECT?

# 317 A:

YES.

# 318 MR. DARDEN:

MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT?

# 319 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 320 THE INTERPRETER:

MAY WE, YOUR HONOR?

# 321 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE INTERPRETERS.)

# 322 THE COURT:

MR. DARDEN.

# 323 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WERE YOU ASKED TO PARK YOUR CAR IN FRONT OF A SPECIFIC ADDRESS OR RESIDENCE?

# 324 A:

NO, SIR.

# 325 Q:

OKAY. WHAT DID CATHY RANDA -- STRIKE THAT. HAD YOU SPOKEN TO CATHY RANDA IN PERSON PRIOR TO THAT DAY?

# 326 A:

BY PHONE, SIR.

# 327 Q:

OKAY. SO THE TWO OF YOU HAD NEVER MET, CORRECT?

# 328 A:

NO, SIR.

# 329 Q:

OKAY. SO YOU CALLED HER FIRST OR DID SHE CALL YOU FIRST?

# 330 A:

SHE CALLED ME.

# 331 Q:

DO YOU RECALL WHERE SPECIFICALLY IT WAS THAT YOU PARKED YOUR CAR THAT DAY?

# 332 A:

NO.

# 333 Q:

AND WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU MET CATHY RANDA THAT DAY?

# 334 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 335 Q:

WAS IT IN THE MORNING?

# 336 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 337 Q:

WAS IT IN THE AFTERNOON?

# 338 MR. COCHRAN:

SHE SAID SHE DOESN'T REMEMBER, YOUR HONOR.

# 339 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 340 ROSA LOPEZ:

I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 341 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU RECALL IF IT WAS AFTER DARK?

# 342 A:

NO, SIR.

# 343 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, WOULD YOU KINDLY INSTRUCT MR. COCHRAN TO NOT FEED THIS WITNESS THE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS.

# 344 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, THAT IS RIDICULOUS. I AM SITTING OVER HERE MINDING MY OWN BUSINESS. THAT IS RIDICULOUS, YOUR HONOR.

# 345 THE COURT:

I DIDN'T NOTICE ANYTHING.

# 346 MR. COCHRAN:

I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT AND HE DOESN'T EITHER.

# 347 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR --

# 348 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 349 MR. DARDEN:

AS AMUSING AS I FIND MR. COCHRAN, HE IS MAKING SPEAKING OBJECTIONS AND THE WITNESS IS ADOPTING HIS OBJECTIONS AS HER ANSWERS.

KEY QUOTE

# 350 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR --

# 351 MR. DARDEN:

I THINK THAT IS CLEAR AND APPARENT TO EVERYBODY WATCHING.

# 352 MR. COCHRAN:

I AM NOT MAKING SPEAKING OBJECTIONS, YOUR HONOR.

# 353 MR. DARDEN:

WHY THEN CONTINUE MAKING SPEAKING OBJECTIONS, COUNSEL?

# 354 THE COURT:

AT THIS POINT THAT OBJECTION IS OVERRULED. I DID NOT OBSERVE ANYTHING OR HEAR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE. THANK YOU.

# 355 MR. DARDEN:

I BELIEVE YOU DID INSTRUCT MR. COCHRAN TO LIMIT HIS OBJECTIONS TO LEGAL OBJECTIONS, YOUR HONOR.

# 356 THE COURT:

I DID, AS I DID THE PROSECUTION. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. PROCEED.

# 357 MR. DARDEN:

OKAY.

# 358 Q:

SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME OR WHAT DAY IT WAS THAT YOU FIRST MET CATHY RANDA?

# 359 MR. COCHRAN:

ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR.

# 360 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 361 ROSA LOPEZ:

NO, SIR.

# 362 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: BY THE WAY, WAS THERE A REWARD OUT FOR ANY PERSON WHO COULD HELP MR. SIMPSON WIN THIS CASE AT THAT TIME?

# 363 A:

NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.

# 364 Q:

WAS SOMEONE ELSE IN THE CAR WITH CATHY RANDA?

# 365 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 366 Q:

WHEN SHE PICKED YOU UP?

# 367 A:

NO, SIR.

# 368 Q:

OKAY. SO YOU LEFT YOUR CAR THERE AND YOU GOT INTO HER CAR, CORRECT?

# 369 A:

YES, SIR.

# 370 Q:

OKAY. SHE TOOK YOU TO MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE, CORRECT?

# 371 A:

YES, SIR.

# 372 Q:

OKAY. BY THE WAY, DID ANYONE GO WITH YOU TO MEET MISS RANDA?

# 373 A:

NO, SIR.

# 374 Q:

OKAY. WHO DID YOU MEET WITH ONCE YOU ARRIVED IN MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE?

# 375 A:

WITH A GENTLEMAN WHOSE NAME IS BILL.

# 376 Q:

HIS NAME IS WHAT?

# 377 A:

BILL.

# 378 Q:

IS BILL AN ATTORNEY?

# 379 A:

I DON'T KNOW IF HE IS AN ATTORNEY.

# 380 Q:

OKAY. WELL, IS BILL MR. PAVELIC?

# 381 A:

YES, SIR.

# 382 Q:

WAS MR. JOHNNIE THERE AT THE TIME?

# 383 A:

NO, SIR.

# 384 Q:

WAS MR. SHAPIRO THERE?

# 385 A:

NO, SIR.

# 386 Q:

WAS PAT MC KENNA THERE?

# 387 A:

NO, SIR.

# 388 Q:

WAS MR. MC NALLY THERE?

# 389 A:

NO, SIR.

# 390 Q:

WAS MR. KARDASHIAN THERE?

# 391 A:

NO, SIR.

# 392 Q:

WAS MR. JONES THERE?

# 393 A:

NO, SIR.

# 394 Q:

SO DID YOU GO INTO AN OFFICE LOCATED INSIDE MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICES?

# 395 A:

YES, SIR.

# 396 Q:

AND WHO DID YOU SPEAK WITH AT THAT TIME?

# 397 A:

WITH MR. BILL.

# 398 Q:

DID YOU SPEAK WITH ANYONE ELSE?

# 399 A:

NOT THAT I CAN REMEMBER.

# 400 Q:

WELL, WHEN YOU AND MR. BILL FIRST BEGAN SPEAKING, DID HE HAVE A NOTE PAD WITH HIM?

# 401 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 402 Q:

WELL, DID HE WRITE DOWN THE THINGS THAT YOU SAID?

# 403 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 404 Q:

WELL, DID YOU SEE PAPER IN THE OFFICE?

# 405 A:

SIR, IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE THIS HAPPENED AND I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 406 Q:

WELL, WHAT MONTH WAS THIS?

# 407 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 408 Q:

WAS IT IN AUGUST?

# 409 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 410 Q:

WAS IT DURING THE SUMMER?

# 411 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 412 Q:

WHAT YEAR WAS IT?

# 413 A:

I JUST KNOW THAT IT WAS IN '94.

# 414 Q:

OKAY. WAS IT ON JULY 29?

# 415 A:

MAYBE.

# 416 Q:

NOW, A MOMENT AGO YOU TOLD US YOU DON'T RECALL THE SEASON, THE DATE, THE MONTH OR THE TIME OF DAY --

# 417 MR. COCHRAN:

THAT IS COMPLEX AND ARGUMENTATIVE ALSO, YOUR HONOR.

# 418 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 419 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: -- CORRECT?

# 420 A:

YES, SIR.

# 421 Q:

BUT YOU THINK THAT PERHAPS IT WAS JUNE 29 (SIC)?

# 422 A:

IF YOU SAY SO.

# 423 Q:

WELL, I'M NOT SAYING SO. I'M ASKING YOU TO SAY SO, MA'AM.

# 424 A:

IT IS JUST THAT I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE BECAUSE I DON'T GO WRITING A DATE.

# 425 Q:

DO YOU HAVE A HARD TIME REMEMBERING DATES?

# 426 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THIS. THIS IS ARGUMENTATIVE. SHE SAID --

# 427 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 428 ROSA LOPEZ:

NO, SIR.

# 429 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU HAVE A HARD TIME REMEMBERING TIMES?

# 430 A:

IF I DON'T -- IF I DON'T HAVE IT WRITTEN DOWN, HOW CAN I REMEMBER?

# 431 Q:

OKAY. IS THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN REMEMBER DATES AND TIMES, THAT IS, IF IT IS WRITTEN DOWN?

# 432 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 433 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 434 ROSA LOPEZ:

NO, SIR.

# 435 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU JUST TOLD US A MOMENT AGO?

# 436 MR. COCHRAN:

THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.

# 437 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 438 MR. COCHRAN:

THE RECORD SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

# 439 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 440 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES, SIR.

# 441 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC, DID HE EVER TAPE THAT CONVERSATION?

# 442 A:

YES, SIR.

# 443 Q:

DID HE TAPE BOTH THE CONVERSATIONS THAT YOU HAD WITH HIM?

# 444 A:

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE SECOND ONE.

# 445 Q:

WELL, DURING THE SECOND INTERVIEW WAS THERE A TAPE RECORDER PRESENT?

# 446 A:

HE DIDN'T TELL ME.

# 447 Q:

WELL, DID HE TELL YOU THAT HE WAS TAPING THE FIRST ONE?

# 448 A:

I SAW THAT HE PUT SOMETHING ON THE TABLE, BUT IT DIDN'T MATTER TO ME.

# 449 Q:

WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC THE FIRST TIME, YOU TALKED ABOUT TIMES AND VOICES; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 450 A:

YES, SIR.

# 451 Q:

AND YOU WERE TRYING TO TELL HIM WHAT YOU BELIEVE WERE THE CORRECT TIMES, CORRECT?

# 452 A:

YES, SIR.

# 453 Q:

AND MR. PAVELIC KEPT TRYING TO PUSH SOME OF YOUR TIMES LATER, DIDN'T HE?

# 454 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. ALSO MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE.

# 455 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 456 MR. COCHRAN:

ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR.

# 457 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 458 MR. DARDEN:

LET ME REASK THE QUESTION, IF I MAY. TWO QUESTIONS.

# 459 Q:

YOU GAVE MR. PAVELIC SOME TIMES, CORRECT?

# 460 A:

YES, SIR.

# 461 Q:

AND YOU TRIED TO TELL HIM THE TIMES YOU BELIEVED WERE CORRECT?

# 462 A:

YES, SIR.

# 463 Q:

OKAY. IT IS MR. PAVELIC WHO DECIDED THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO AT 10:15 OR 10:20, AS OPPOSED TO A FEW MINUTES BEFORE OR AROUND TEN O'CLOCK, CORRECT?

# 464 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. CALLS FOR A CONCLUSION AND IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 465 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED.

# 466 MR. DARDEN:

IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE?

# 467 THE COURT:

NO, IT IS ALSO -- IT ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE AT THIS POINT AND IT ALSO CALLS FOR SPECULATION, THAT IT IS -- THAT IT WAS PAVELIC WHO DECIDED. WE HAVE REVIEWED THE TAPE.

# 468 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 469 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, DID MR. PAVELIC TELL YOU OR MENTION TO YOU FIRST THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO AT 10:15 OR 10:20?

# 470 A:

ALL I SAID WAS THAT IT WAS AFTER 10:00.

KEY QUOTE

# 471 Q:

SO YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG AFTER 10:00, CORRECT?

# 472 A:

NO, SIR.

# 473 Q:

YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG AFTER 10:00?

# 474 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 475 Q:

YES OR NO?

# 476 A:

NO, SIR.

# 477 Q:

OKAY. MR. PAVELIC IS THE ONE THAT FIRST SUGGESTED 10:15 OR 10:20, CORRECT?

# 478 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, THAT IS SPECULATIVE, SPECULATION.

# 479 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 480 ROSA LOPEZ:

IF THAT IS WHAT HE IS SAYING, THAT IS FINE.

# 481 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: BUT WHAT YOU TOLD MR. PAVELIC WAS THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO SOME TIME AFTER TEN O'CLOCK AND YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG AFTER 10:00, CORRECT?

# 482 A:

YES, SIR.

# 483 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 484 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: YOU SAID THAT AT SOME POINT MR. PAVELIC PUT SOMETHING INTO THE TAPE RECORDER?

# 485 A:

I HAVEN'T SAID THAT HE PUT ANYTHING.

# 486 Q:

OKAY. WELL, DID YOU SAY THAT AT SOME POINT MR. PAVELIC TURNED ON THE TAPE RECORDER?

# 487 A:

YES, SIR.

# 488 Q:

WELL, BEFORE HE TURNED ON THE TAPE RECORDER, YOU AND HE HAD A LONG CONVERSATION FIRST, CORRECT?

# 489 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 490 Q:

HAVE YOU LISTENED TO THE TAPE, THAT IS, WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS?

# 491 A:

HERE IN COURT.

# 492 Q:

MR. JOHNNIE PLAYED A CASSETTE TAPE FOR YOU?

# 493 A:

YES, SIR.

# 494 Q:

OKAY. AND HE PLAYED A TAPE THAT INCLUDED YOUR VOICE AND MR. BILL'S VOICE, CORRECT?

# 495 A:

YES, SIR.

# 496 Q:

AND WHEN YOU HEARD THAT TAPE DID YOU ALSO HEAR PAPER SHUFFLING, THE SOUND OF PAPER SHUFFLING IN THE BACKGROUND?

# 497 MR. COCHRAN:

CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.

# 498 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 499 MR. COCHRAN:

CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

# 500 ROSA LOPEZ:

NO, SIR.

# 501 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: DURING THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH MR. PAVELIC YOU WOULD GIVE TIMES AND HE WOULD GIVE OTHER TIMES, CORRECT?

# 502 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THIS. THE TAPE IS THE BEST EVIDENCE OF THIS.

# 503 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 504 MR. COCHRAN:

THIS IS --

# 505 ROSA LOPEZ:

IF YOU SAY SO, SIR.

# 506 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: BUT I'M ASKING YOU, MA'AM. IS THAT CORRECT?

# 507 A:

IT IS CORRECT.

# 508 Q:

AND YOU DID NOT AGREE WITH ALL THE TIMES THAT MR. PAVELIC SAID, CORRECT?

# 509 A:

MAYBE HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND ME.

# 510 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 511 ROSA LOPEZ:

YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE SOME WATER.

# 512 THE COURT:

YES. WE HAVE ONE FOR THE INTERPRETER AS WELL.

# 513 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 514 MR. DARDEN:

CAN I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

# 515 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK IN ABOUT SIX MINUTES.

# 516 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 517 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: ARE YOU READY?

# 518 A:

YES, SIR.

# 519 Q:

DURING THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH MR. PAVELIC, HE NEVER TOLD YOU THAT HE DID NOT UNDERSTAND YOU, CORRECT?

# 520 A:

HE DIDN'T, BUT I DID.

# 521 Q:

YOU TOLD MR. PAVELIC THAT HE WAS NOT UNDERSTANDING YOU CORRECTLY?

# 522 A:

WHEN WE WERE ABOUT TO START THE CONVERSATION I TOLD HIM, "LET'S SEE IF WE UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, SIR, BECAUSE MY ENGLISH IS VERY POOR."

# 523 Q:

OKAY. AND DID YOU AND HE HAVE A CONVERSATION?

# 524 A:

WHEN IT WAS BEING RECORDED.

# 525 Q:

WELL, YOU HAVE NO DIFFICULTY IN SAYING "8:30," CORRECT?

# 526 A:

NO, SIR.

# 527 Q:

OR "TEN O'CLOCK," CORRECT?

# 528 A:

NO, SIR.

# 529 Q:

OKAY. OR "NINE O'CLOCK" OR "9:15," CORRECT?

# 530 A:

NO, SIR.

# 531 Q:

OKAY. WOULD YOU -- WOULD YOU SAY "TEN O'CLOCK" FOR US.

# 532 A:

(IN ENGLISH) AFTER 10:00, SENOR.

# 533 THE INTERPRETER:

AFTER 10:00, SIR.

# 534 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: YOU ALSO TOLD US THE OTHER DAY THAT BEFORE GOING OUT, YOU PUT SOME WATER ON TO BOIL?

# 535 A:

YES, SIR.

# 536 Q:

AND WERE YOU PLANNING TO HAVE A CUP OF TEA?

# 537 A:

YES, SIR.

# 538 Q:

ARE YOU A COFFEE DRINKER AT ALL?

# 539 A:

YES, SIR.

# 540 Q:

WHEN YOU PUT WATER ON TO BOIL, WHAT YOU DID WAS YOU PUT A CUP OF WATER INTO THE MICROWAVE, CORRECT?

# 541 A:

YES, SIR.

# 542 Q:

OKAY. AND YOU SET THE MICROWAVE FOR A MINUTE AND A HALF?

# 543 A:

YES, SIR.

# 544 Q:

AND THAT IS HOW YOU ALWAYS DO IT, CORRECT?

# 545 A:

YES, SIR.

# 546 Q:

AND AFTER YOU STARTED THE MICROWAVE, YOU LEFT THE HOUSE?

# 547 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE AS TO WHAT HAPPENED.

# 548 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 549 ROSA LOPEZ:

NO, SIR.

# 550 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. WELL, YOU DIDN'T HAVE YOUR COFFEE, DID YOU?

# 551 MR. COCHRAN:

THAT MISSTATES. SHE WASN'T DRINKING COFFEE, YOUR HONOR.

# 552 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 553 MR. DARDEN:

I'M SORRY.

# 554 Q:

YOU DIDN'T HAVE YOUR TEA, CORRECT?

# 555 A:

NO, SIR.

# 556 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU LEAVE THE HOUSE WHILE THE WATER WAS BOILING IN THE MICROWAVE?

# 557 A:

NO, SIR.

# 558 Q:

YOU NEVER HAD YOUR TEA?

# 559 A:

NO, SIR.

# 560 Q:

YOU TOLD US THAT WHEN YOU WENT OUT, AROUND TEN O'CLOCK --

# 561 MR. COCHRAN:

THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE. AFTER TEN O'CLOCK IS WHAT SHE SAID.

# 562 THE COURT:

REPHRASE THE QUESTION. EVER SO SLIGHTLY REPHRASE THE QUESTION, PLEASE.

# 563 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, WHEN YOU TESTIFIED THE OTHER DAY AND WHEN YOU WERE ASKED WHAT YOU DID AT TEN O'CLOCK, YOU STUTTERED AND YOU SAID --

# 564 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. HE IS TESTIFYING AND IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 565 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

# 566 MR. DARDEN:

THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 567 THE COURT:

THE STUTTERING PART IS, YES.

# 568 MR. DARDEN:

WHAT IF THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED? DOES THAT STILL MAKE IT ARGUMENTATIVE?

# 569 MR. COCHRAN:

THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR. HE IS ARGUING WITH THE COURT'S RULING.

# 570 THE COURT:

ARGUMENTATIVE IS THE OBJECTION.

# 571 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, ALSO ARGUING WITH YOUR RULING.

# 572 THE COURT:

AND YOU ARE ALSO ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT ARGUING.

KEY QUOTE

# 573 MR. COCHRAN:

I WAS JUST POINTING IT OUT. I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR.

# 574 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. DARDEN, PROCEED. REASK YOUR QUESTION, PLEASE.

# 575 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU WERE DISCUSSING WHAT YOU DID AT, AFTER OR AROUND TEN O'CLOCK, DIDN'T YOU SAY IN SPANISH THAT YOU LAST LOOKED AT THE CLOCK SHORTLY BEFORE TEN O'CLOCK?

# 576 A:

AT TEN O'CLOCK, SIR.

# 577 Q:

NOW, THE CLOCK THAT YOU LOOKED AT AT TEN O'CLOCK, IS THAT THE CLOCK THAT WAS IN YOUR BEDROOM?

# 578 A:

YES, SIR.

# 579 Q:

MRS. SALINGER WOULD SOMETIMES COME INTO YOUR BEDROOM, CORRECT?

# 580 A:

I DON'T KNOW IF SHE WOULD COME INTO MY BEDROOM WHEN I WASN'T THERE.

# 581 Q:

OKAY. WELL, WOULD SHE COME INTO YOUR BEDROOM SOMETIMES WHEN YOU WERE THERE?

# 582 A:

NOT THAT I CAN REMEMBER.

# 583 Q:

ARE YOU SURE THAT YOU HAD A CLOCK ON YOUR NIGHTSTAND IN YOUR BEDROOM?

# 584 A:

YES, SIR.

# 585 Q:

AND THIS CLOCK THAT YOU HAD, WAS IT A DIGITAL CLOCK OR DID IT HAVE HANDS?

# 586 A:

IT WAS DIGITAL, SIR.

# 587 Q:

IS THAT THE ONLY KIND OF CLOCK YOU CAN TELL TIME FROM?

# 588 A:

NO, SIR.

# 589 Q:

BUT WHEN YOU DID LEAVE AT TEN O'CLOCK, YOU LEFT FOR A VERY SHORT TIME, CORRECT?

# 590 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT. HE MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE AGAIN, YOUR HONOR. ARGUMENTATIVE, MISSTATING THE EVIDENCE.

# 591 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 592 MR. COCHRAN:

ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE. SHE SAID --

# 593 MR. DARDEN:

HEY, HEY, HEY.

# 594 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 595 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU LEFT AT TEN O'CLOCK --

# 596 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, THAT IS VAGUE AS TO LEFT WHERE.

# 597 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 598 MR. COCHRAN:

IT IS VAGUE.

# 599 THE COURT:

YOU CAN ASK THE QUESTION. LAST QUESTION BEFORE THE BREAK.

# 600 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: YOU WERE OUTSIDE A VERY SHORT TIME, CORRECT?

# 601 A:

YES, SIR.

# 602 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. LET'S TAKE OUR RECESS. ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MISS LOPEZ, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK FOR THE COURT REPORTER AND THE INTERPRETERS. YOU ARE ORDERED TO COME BACK AT ELEVEN O'CLOCK. ALL RIGHT. FIFTEEN MINUTES. ALL RIGHT. STAND IN RECESS FOR FIFTEEN MINUTES.

Temperature

heated

Key Quotes (5)

Rosa Maria Lopez

IF I WAS GIVEN UNEMPLOYMENT, SIR, THERE WAS NO REASON FOR ME TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

Undercuts her prior testimony that she wasn't filing unemployment because she planned to leave the country — revealing those two claims were contradictory.

Rosa Maria Lopez

ALL I SAID WAS THAT IT WAS AFTER 10:00.

Lopez concedes her original Bronco sighting time was only 'after 10:00,' not the specific 10:15–10:20 she testified to — implying Pavelic supplied the more precise, alibi-favorable time.

Rosa Maria Lopez

BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I WAS TOLD AND THAT IS WHAT I DID.

Lopez admits she was instructed to meet Cathy Randa on the street rather than at her place of employment, suggesting the meeting was deliberately kept covert.

Lance A. Ito

AND YOU ARE ALSO ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT ARGUING.

Ito dryly shuts down Cochran after Cochran objects to Darden arguing with the court's ruling — a rare moment of judicial wit.

Christopher Darden

AS AMUSING AS I FIND MR. COCHRAN, HE IS MAKING SPEAKING OBJECTIONS AND THE WITNESS IS ADOPTING HIS OBJECTIONS AS HER ANSWERS.

Darden explicitly accuses Cochran of witness coaching through objections — a serious allegation that Ito ultimately declines to act on.

Evidence (2)

People's 87

Rosa Maria Lopez's unemployment insurance application, filed February 15, listing her son's address rather than her own residence

Introduced and used for impeachment

Informal

Cassette tape recording of Lopez's interview with defense investigator Bill Pavelic at OJ Simpson's office

Referenced; Cochran had previously played it for Lopez; Darden questions Lopez about its contents and whether conversation preceded the recording

Notable Exchanges (4)

Christopher Darden•Johnnie Cochran

Darden repeatedly accuses Cochran of making speaking objections to coach Lopez, noting the witness appears to be adopting Cochran's objection language as her own answers. Cochran denies it; Ito says he did not observe the conduct but had previously instructed both sides to limit objections.

heated

Christopher Darden•Rosa Maria Lopez

Darden walks Lopez through the Pavelic interview step by step, establishing that her only stated time was 'after 10:00' and that the specific 10:15–10:20 figure was introduced by Pavelic. Lopez essentially concedes this, saying 'If that is what he is saying, that is fine.'

revealing

Christopher Darden•Rosa Maria Lopez

Darden reveals Lopez listed her son's address — not her own — on the unemployment application, and that she had a hearing scheduled the previous day which she did not attend. Lopez insists the address is not false because her son lives there.

strategic

Christopher Darden•Johnnie Cochran

Cochran is found to be wearing Darden's wireless microphone, borrowed from Channel 4. Exchange is briefly playful before proceedings resume.

light

Light Moments (3)

Lance A. Ito

Cochran is discovered wearing Darden's borrowed microphone. Ito notes: 'I think this is a loan from Channel 4.'

Lance A. Ito

While waiting for the microphone situation to be resolved, Ito quips: 'It is not often the camera people get on camera.'

Lance A. Ito

Ito to Cochran after Cochran objects to Darden arguing with a ruling: 'And you are also arguing with me about arguing.'

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Rosa Maria Lopez

Prior inconsistent statement

Darden establishes Lopez testified she had not filled out unemployment forms, when in fact she had filed on February 15 — and did not admit this until confronted with proof.

⚔ Rosa Maria Lopez

Prior inconsistent statement

Darden establishes Lopez claimed she made travel reservations on Friday morning, when she had not, and did not concede this until confronted with evidence.

⚔ Rosa Maria Lopez

False statement on official document

Darden shows Lopez listed her son's address — not her actual residence — on her unemployment insurance application, which contains a bold warning that false statements violate the law.

⚔ Rosa Maria Lopez

Bias / witness preparation

Darden establishes that Lopez was covertly picked up by OJ Simpson's personal secretary Cathy Randa, driven to Simpson's office, and interviewed by defense investigator Pavelic — and that the specific Bronco sighting time of 10:15–10:20 originated with Pavelic, not Lopez.

Witness Demeanor

(BRIEF PAUSE.) — after Lopez says she has thought of leaving right away once she is done testifying

(NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) — when asked why she agreed to meet Cathy Randa on the street

(NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) — when asked how long after 10:00 she saw the Bronco

(IN ENGLISH) YES. — Lopez answers in English without interpreter on oath question

(IN ENGLISH) AFTER 10:00, SENOR. — Lopez demonstrates in English how she communicated the time to Pavelic

Objections

34 objections (3 sustained, 28 overruled)

Proceeding 5122 • 602 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103