Redirect examination of Robert Heidstra (part 4)

📄 Redirect examination of Robert Heidstra (part 4) — Wednesday, July 12, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\12\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-ROBERT.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 113 of 167

◀ Recross-examination of Robert Heidstra (part 2) Recross-examination of Robert Heidstra (part 3) ▶

Witness: Robert Heidstra
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 • Utterances: 143

Cochran conducts a brief redirect examination of Robert Heidstra, rehabilitating him after cross-examination by Darden. Cochran focuses on reinforcing Heidstra's consistent description of the white vehicle as a Jeep/Blazer-type car (not specifically a Bronco), his firm timeline of 10:40-10:45 PM, and his denial of ever identifying OJ Simpson's voice or presence at the scene. Cochran also addresses Heidstra's refusals to profit from media appearances.

# 1 THE COURT:

Mr. Cochran.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

# 2 MR. COCHRAN:

Just a few questions more. Sir, with regard to that letter that you got from Mr. Bailey that I showed you earlier, the letter which talked to you about--asked you not to talk to other witnesses, Defense 1240, there was another part on that. They were laminated and kind of stuck together.

# 3 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. Right. Right. Right.

# 4 MR. COCHRAN:

And do you recall that the other part was an order from Judge Ito about witnesses not watching television?

# 5 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes. Right. Right.

# 6 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. Hearsay.

# 7 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 8 MR. COCHRAN:

So what Mr. Darden is asking you all these questions about was a letter from Mr. Bailey which we've shown to the jury with the Judge's order saying not to watch television; isn't that right?

# 9 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. Exactly. Yes.

# 10 MR. COCHRAN:

And that's all that you received from Mr. Bailey; is that right?

# 11 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That's all.

# 12 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, with regard to these witnesses, I want to ask you specifically, with regard to Christian Anders, have you ever at any time in your life ever said to Christian Anders that O.J. Simpson was at that scene on the night of June 12th, 1994?

# 13 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never. Never. I could never have said that. I never saw somebody there.

KEY QUOTE

# 14 MR. COCHRAN:

And with regard to--did you ever at any time tell Christian Anders that you saw a Bronco on that night? You never did that, did you?

# 15 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. Big car, big Jeep or it looked like. It could be anything.

# 16 MR. COCHRAN:

And in fact, from the very beginning, from the time that you first spoke with the detectives in this case on June 21st, you said it was a big white car; is that right?

# 17 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Big Jeep--big Jeep and--or Blazer.

# 18 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor. Leading.

# 19 THE COURT:

Hold on. Sustained. It is leading.

# 20 MR. DARDEN:

Motion to strike.

# 21 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Let me state it another way, your Honor.

# 22 THE COURT:

No. The answer will stand because we're going to get that anyway. Proceed.

# 23 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Thank you, your Honor.

# 24 MR. COCHRAN:

With regard to the car that you saw that night, how would you describe that car to this Court and jury?

# 25 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Jeep, wagon like car and white colored car. I didn't know for sure what it exactly was.

# 26 MR. COCHRAN:

And when you pointed that particular vehicle out to the police when they were talking to you on June 21st--

# 27 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 28 MR. COCHRAN:

--you pointed to a Chevrolet Blazer; is that right?

# 29 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. It was parked in there.

# 30 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And you were how far away from that vehicle when you were looking?

# 31 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, few--few feet. I mean it was very close together.

# 32 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, the Blazer you were close to?

# 33 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. Sure.

# 34 MR. COCHRAN:

But that particular night, how many meters or how many feet or yards did you tell the jury you were?

# 35 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, about 50 yards at least.

# 36 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And have you had occasion to look that and measure that distance?

# 37 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 38 MR. COCHRAN:

Since that time?

# 39 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 40 MR. COCHRAN:

And how did you do that? Did you talk to somebody about the distance?

# 41 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. It has to because I don't know the yards in English unless they tell me what the distance was from this house to the corner of Bundy and Dorothy.

# 42 MR. COCHRAN:

So you talked to someone who knew the distance in yards?

# 43 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes. Exactly.

# 44 MR. COCHRAN:

Being French, you know things in meters?

# 45 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That's it, yeah.

# 46 MR. COCHRAN:

And from that 50 yards distance, sir, on Dorothy, you were looking back west to Bundy; is that correct?

# 47 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 48 MR. COCHRAN:

And from your vantage point there, were you able to see any alley that might exist behind Bundy there at all?

# 49 MR. HEIDSTRA:

On the west side you mean?

# 50 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes. In the alley behind Bundy on the west side.

# 51 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. No. Completely dark. I never could see it.

# 52 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you ever tell anybody you saw any vehicle coming out of that alley?

# 53 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never. Never did.

# 54 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you ever see a vehicle come out of that alley at all?

# 55 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 56 MR. COCHRAN:

And being familiar with that area, if a person were coming and going eastbound on Dorothy and they wanted to go to the Rockingham location, would you expect, knowing that area, that you would turn right and go south to Wilshire?

# 57 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor. Objection to the form of the question. Calls for speculation.

# 58 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 59 MR. COCHRAN:

You wouldn't go south on Wilshire that way, would you?

# 60 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. You would go north to Sunset.

# 61 MR. COCHRAN:

And do you have any doubt in your mind that this white car that you can't identified turned right and went south on Bundy?

# 62 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No doubt. No doubt. No doubt.

# 63 MR. COCHRAN:

No doubt at all?

# 64 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not at all.

# 65 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, let's take this other witness, this Marilee Kane. With regard to the questions that you were asked, when you talked to--Marilee Kane, is that a woman?

# 66 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, a woman.

# 67 MR. COCHRAN:

When you talked to Miss Marilee Kane, at any time, you never said anything to her about hearing any young adult voice, did you?

# 68 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. I said a clear voice, was in a clear voice.

# 69 MR. COCHRAN:

And you talked about the words, "Hey, hey, hey"; is that right?

# 70 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 71 MR. COCHRAN:

And did you ever mention at all, if you recall, to Miss Kane anything about a second voice at all?

# 72 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. I said to her it was two voices I heard. That's it.

# 73 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. But could you identify that second voice at all?

# 74 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. No. It was too much noise.

# 75 MR. COCHRAN:

And what was the noise coming from?

# 76 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Came down from Bundy when I was in the alley from Nicole's condo. I'm sure it was there.

# 77 MR. COCHRAN:

And do you recall at some point talking to Miss Kane and telling her that the white vehicle that you observed could have been a white van? Do you recall ever saying that?

# 78 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. It's a Jeep or van I told her, a Blazer or whatever we talked about.

# 79 MR. COCHRAN:

Same thing you've been telling us here, right?

# 80 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right. Right.

# 81 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that the same thing you told the detectives back on June 21st, 1994?

# 82 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes. When they came to my place, sure.

# 83 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, so that we're clear, Mr. Heidstra, is there any doubt in your mind that you were in that alley and was walking parallel to Bundy on the night of June 12th, 1994?

# 84 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No doubt. I'd never forget that.

KEY QUOTE

# 85 MR. COCHRAN:

Any doubt in your mind that when you stopped behind that house, that it was approximately 10:40 P.M.? Any doubt?

# 86 MR. DARDEN:

Your Honor, that's leading, objection.

# 87 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 88 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 89 MR. COCHRAN:

Is there any doubt in your mind about that?

# 90 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. No doubt about it.

# 91 MR. COCHRAN:

Is there any doubt in your mind that when you were on your street on Dorothy and you looked back before you saw this car turning right to go south on Bundy, that it was about 10:45 in the evening?

# 92 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Around 45, yes.

# 93 MR. COCHRAN:

Any doubt in your mind about that?

# 94 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, no. It was--must have been in that time exactly when I came to the alley.

# 95 MR. COCHRAN:

Is there any doubt in your mind you could not identify the voices of either one of these two people?

# 96 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never. Never could I, no.

# 97 MR. COCHRAN:

And is it part of your vocabulary to identify the race, ethnicity of any particular voice? Can you do that?

# 98 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. That's absurd. That's crazy.

# 99 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. Motion to--

# 100 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 101 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That's crazy. Of course not.

KEY QUOTE

# 102 MR. COCHRAN:

Have you ever done that?

# 103 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 104 MR. COCHRAN:

Would you do that?

# 105 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. No. No. Never in my life.

# 106 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you do that in this case?

# 107 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 108 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you even know what O.J. Simpson sounds like?

# 109 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. I heard him maybe once or twice on TV, but never. I don't know the voice at all.

# 110 MR. COCHRAN:

You never heard his voice that night, did you?

# 111 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. No. I don't know. It was too much noise.

# 112 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor. Objection. Speculation.

# 113 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 114 MR. COCHRAN:

And you never saw him that night, did you?

# 115 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never. Saw nobody.

# 116 MR. COCHRAN:

Have you told us the truth here today?

# 117 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I told you the truth.

# 118 MR. COCHRAN:

And even with regard to this man who is--supposedly has a cable TV show, he asked you to be on his TV show did he?

# 119 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 120 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you turn him down also?

# 121 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I turned him down.

# 122 MR. COCHRAN:

Have you turned everybody down about being on their show?

# 123 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I turned them all down, yes.

# 124 MR. COCHRAN:

Except the news when the news--

# 125 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, yes. Yes.

# 126 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, have you been offered--did someone offer you to go on Hard Copy?

# 127 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. There was a lady, a friend of--

# 128 MR. COCHRAN:

A lady asked you to go on Hard Copy with some other person?

# 129 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor. This is leading, irrelevant, beyond the--

# 130 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm asking.

# 131 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 132 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 133 MR. COCHRAN:

And who was that person that asked you to go on Hard Copy?

# 134 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It was Patricia.

# 135 MR. COCHRAN:

Patricia Barrett?

# 136 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 137 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you go on Hard Copy with Patricia Barrett?

# 138 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. I refused.

# 139 MR. COCHRAN:

You did what?

# 140 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I refused. I didn't want to do it.

KEY QUOTE

# 141 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you take any money from anybody?

# 142 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. No. Nothing.

# 143 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you very much. Nothing further.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Robert Heidstra

Never. Never. I could never have said that. I never saw somebody there.

Flat denial that he ever told Christian Anders he saw OJ Simpson at the scene — directly rebutting the prosecution's impeachment witness.

Robert Heidstra

That's absurd. That's crazy. Of course not.

Emphatic rejection of the idea that he could identify a speaker's race by voice — neutralizing Darden's cross-examination implication that he claimed to identify a 'Black man's voice'.

Robert Heidstra

No doubt. I'd never forget that.

Affirms with certainty that he was in the alley walking parallel to Bundy on the night of June 12, 1994 — anchoring his timeline testimony.

Robert Heidstra

No. I refused. I didn't want to do it.

Reinforces that Heidstra turned down all media opportunities including Hard Copy, undercutting any suggestion he was motivated by fame or money.

Evidence (1)

Defense 1240

Letter from F. Lee Bailey to Heidstra instructing him not to talk to other witnesses, laminated with a Judge Ito order about not watching television

discussed to contextualize prosecution's cross-examination

Notable Exchanges (3)

Johnnie Cochran•Robert Heidstra

Cochran walks Heidstra through his description of the white vehicle — 'Jeep, wagon like car and white colored car' — to establish consistency with his original June 21, 1994 police interview, after Darden challenged him on it.

strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Robert Heidstra•Christopher Darden

Cochran asks whether identifying someone's race by voice is part of Heidstra's vocabulary. Heidstra calls it 'absurd' and 'crazy.' Darden objects but is overruled.

heated

Lance A. Ito•Johnnie Cochran

After sustaining a leading objection and granting a motion to strike, Ito immediately allows the answer to stand anyway — 'The answer will stand because we're going to get that anyway' — an unusual judicial acknowledgment.

procedural

Light Moments (1)

Johnnie Cochran

Cochran explains Heidstra's metric system confusion: 'Being French, you know things in meters?' Heidstra confirms and explains he had to ask someone else to convert 50 yards for him.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Christian Anders

denial of prior statement

Cochran has Heidstra flatly deny ever telling Anders that OJ Simpson was at the scene or that he saw a Bronco — preemptively undermining Anders as a prosecution rebuttal witness.

⚔ Marilee Kane

clarification of prior statement

Cochran clarifies Heidstra's statements to Kane about 'two voices' and the vehicle description, framing them as consistent with trial testimony rather than contradictory.

Witness Demeanor

Heidstra answers with forceful repetition throughout ('Never. Never. Never.', 'No doubt. No doubt. No doubt.'), suggesting either genuine conviction or coached emphasis.

Heidstra becomes visibly indignant when asked about voice-race identification, calling the premise 'absurd' and 'crazy' unprompted.

Objections

8 objections (1 sustained, 6 overruled)

Proceeding 6782 • 143 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103