Recross-examination of Robert Heidstra (part 2)

📄 Recross-examination of Robert Heidstra (part 2) — Wednesday, July 12, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\12\RECROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-ROBERT-.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 113 of 167

◀ Sidebar: Christian Anders statement Redirect examination of Robert Heidstra (part 4) ▶

Witness: Robert Heidstra
Examiner: Christopher Darden
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 • Utterances: 213

Darden uses recross to impeach Heidstra through his prior statements to two acquaintances: client Marilee Kane (who lives on Bundy) and neighbor Christian Anders. Darden presses Heidstra on whether he told Kane the vehicle was specifically a white Bronco and whether he left 'a little late,' and confronts him with Anders's account that Heidstra said 'the thing is clear to me it was O.J.' Heidstra denies the most damaging characterizations while conceding the vehicle could have been a Bronco and that its windows appeared tinted.

# 1 (The following proceedings were held in open court:)

# 2 THE COURT:

All right. Let the record reflect we have all our jurors back with us. Mr. Darden, you may proceed.

# 3 MR. DARDEN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 4 MR. DARDEN:

Mr. Heidstra, you testified that you know Marilee Kane?

# 5 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 6 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And who was she?

# 7 MR. HEIDSTRA:

She's a client of mine.

# 8 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And does she live on Bundy?

# 9 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. She moved in there recently.

# 10 MR. DARDEN:

Pardon me?

# 11 MR. HEIDSTRA:

She moved in there recently.

# 12 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And where did she live before that?

# 13 MR. HEIDSTRA:

In Santa Monica.

# 14 MR. DARDEN:

And did you know her while she was living in Santa Monica?

# 15 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. On Idaho.

# 16 MR. DARDEN:

Pardon?

# 17 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Idaho. Idaho Street.

# 18 MR. DARDEN:

Okay.

# 19 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Idaho. Potatoes.

# 20 MR. DARDEN:

In fact, you've known Miss Kane for about five years; is that correct?

# 21 MR. HEIDSTRA:

About, about that time, yes.

# 22 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And you've been detailing her vehicles for the past five years?

# 23 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Around that, yes.

# 24 MR. DARDEN:

And you've had occasion to talk to Miss Kane about your observations and perceptions of June 12th, 1994; is that correct?

# 25 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I might have, yes.

# 26 MR. DARDEN:

When you say you might have, have you?

# 27 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I'm sure I did. Yeah, we talked.

# 28 MR. DARDEN:

And you told Miss Kane that you usually walk your dog around 10:00 o'clock; is that right?

# 29 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 30 MR. DARDEN:

And you told her that you left a little late that Sunday night; is that correct?

# 31 MR. HEIDSTRA:

10:15 I told her.

# 32 MR. DARDEN:

You didn't tell Miss Kane that you left at 10:15, did you?

# 33 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, she must have misunderstood. I never said that. 10:15. Never said little late.

# 34 MR. DARDEN:

Well, when talking to Miss Kane, did you state, quote, that you left--I'm sorry. Let me redo that. While talking to Miss Kane, did you tell her that you left, quote, "A little late," unquote?

# 35 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Late. I left late. Never little late. I left late.

# 36 MR. DARDEN:

And during your conversation with Miss Kane, you told her that the vehicle that you saw was a white Bronco, didn't you?

# 37 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I didn't say Bronco.

KEY QUOTE

# 38 MR. DARDEN:

Did you ever tell Miss Kane that you saw a white Bronco?

# 39 MR. HEIDSTRA:

A white car, a white Blazer, big car, Jeep. I never said a Bronco.

# 40 MR. DARDEN:

Isn't it true that you told Miss Kane that you saw a white Bronco pull out of the alley behind Bundy?

# 41 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Pull out the al--I never saw in the alley. No, not at all. I saw the car coming from the west side of Dorothy, but in the alley I never saw it.

# 42 MR. DARDEN:

Well, while standing on the street at Dorothy, if you look west, you can actually see the mouth of the alley; is that correct?

# 43 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. It's dark behind there, completely dark. You can see nothing. Very dark.

# 44 MR. DARDEN:

Isn't there a streetlight at the corner, Mr. Heidstra?

# 45 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Just on the corner that shines just the crossing, but not behind there.

# 46 MR. DARDEN:

Did you tell Miss Kane that you saw a white Bronco pull out of the alley behind--

# 47 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never said--

# 48 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered, your Honor.

# 49 THE COURT:

Overruled. You can answer the question.

# 50 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never saw a Bronco. It looked like a big--like a Blazer car like--

# 51 MR. DARDEN:

The question is, did you tell Miss Kane that you saw a white Bronco pull out of the alley behind Bundy?

# 52 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered.

# 53 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 54 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I can't recall that. I said big Jeep or Blazer like car. It could have been a Bronco. I don't know. But I didn't say specifically a Bronco.

KEY QUOTE

# 55 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. So your answer to my question is no then, sir?

# 56 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Pardon?

# 57 MR. DARDEN:

The answer to my question is no?

# 58 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. I don't recall that at all.

# 59 MR. DARDEN:

But it's your testimony that it could have been a Bronco; is that right?

# 60 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Could have been.

# 61 MR. DARDEN:

Okay.

# 62 MR. HEIDSTRA:

The distance was big. I could never see that for sure.

# 63 MR. DARDEN:

And when you first saw that vehicle, which could have been a Bronco, it was going east on Dorothy, right?

# 64 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes. It came down the street there.

# 65 MR. DARDEN:

And the alley, the alley that leads behind Nicole Brown's condo would have been just west of that Bronco?

# 66 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. That was west.

# 67 MR. DARDEN:

The car that looks like a Bronco.

# 68 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. It was west.

# 69 MR. DARDEN:

You don't know whether or not that vehicle came out of the alleyway?

# 70 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I told you I could never see it. It was dark as can be. There is no light there. It came out of the darkness. I don't know from where.

# 71 MR. DARDEN:

And in terms of the time, the time in which you saw that white vehicle, you can only give us an approximation, right?

# 72 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 73 MR. DARDEN:

You can't give us the exact time?

# 74 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. I didn't look at my watch.

# 75 MR. DARDEN:

And were you standing in front of a residence when you saw that white vehicle that looked like a Bronco?

# 76 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 77 MR. DARDEN:

Do you know the address to that residence?

# 78 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. Like I said, that's three houses--block from the alley. I don't know the street there, no. Two--it's three houses from the corner of Bundy I be.

# 79 MR. DARDEN:

So would you be west of the alley or east of the alley?

# 80 MR. HEIDSTRA:

East of the alley.

# 81 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And we're talking about the alley that--the alley on the east side of Bundy, correct?

# 82 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 83 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 84 MR. DARDEN:

Now, you've also testified that you walked down the alley behind--the one located behind Nicole Brown's condo, right?

# 85 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never walked--never crossed there. I never been with my dogs in that alley ever.

# 86 MR. DARDEN:

Are you aware that when the police found the bodies, that the front gate at 875 south Bundy was open?

# 87 MR. COCHRAN:

I object to this, your Honor. This is beyond the scope.

# 88 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 89 MR. DARDEN:

You've already told us that you were interviewed by the news, correct?

# 90 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 91 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And didn't you tell a television reporter that the intersection in the area at Bundy and Dorothy was well lit?

# 92 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It's well lit. Exactly, yes.

# 93 MR. DARDEN:

So you could see the mouth of the alleyway then; is that correct?

# 94 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered, your Honor.

# 95 THE COURT:

Overruled. You can answer the question.

# 96 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I could never see it. It was dark, very dark. Came out of the darkness, like I said, into the light on the crossing from Bundy and Dorothy out of the darkness. Don't know where it came from.

# 97 MR. DARDEN:

May I have one moment, your Honor?

# 98 (Brief pause.)

# 99 MR. DARDEN:

And when you spoke to the news reporter, did you tell the reporter that you could make out the vehicle clearly because of that streetlight located at the intersection?

# 100 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Could see certainly a light colored car for sure.

# 101 MR. DARDEN:

And so the vehicle went south on Bundy; is that correct?

# 102 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly, yes. Surely.

# 103 MR. DARDEN:

It didn't go north?

# 104 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. Never.

# 105 MR. DARDEN:

Had the vehicle gone north, it would have driven right past the front of Nicole Brown's condo; is that right?

# 106 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 107 MR. DARDEN:

Have you seen the photographs of the dog, the bloody paw prints at 875 Bundy?

# 108 MR. COCHRAN:

Object, your Honor. This is beyond the scope.

# 109 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 110 MR. DARDEN:

Have you seen the photographs of the bloody paw prints heading south on Bundy?

# 111 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I saw it in the newspaper.

# 112 MR. DARDEN:

And that would be the same direction in which the white vehicle that looked like a Bronco went?

# 113 MR. HEIDSTRA:

South.

# 114 MR. DARDEN:

When you walk around, have you noticed that your dog follows you?

# 115 MR. HEIDSTRA:

My dog what?

# 116 MR. DARDEN:

When you go places or walk--

# 117 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 118 MR. DARDEN:

--have you noticed that your dog follows you?

# 119 MR. HEIDSTRA:

My dog?

# 120 MR. COCHRAN:

I object to the form of the question. That's irrelevant and immaterial.

# 121 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 122 MR. DARDEN:

Mr. Cochran was asking you questions on redirect. You testified that you were disappointed that you were not being called as a witness by the Prosecution; is that correct?

# 123 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 124 MR. DARDEN:

And why is that?

# 125 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Because you called me a crucial witness at that time. I was very surprised about that.

# 126 MR. DARDEN:

Did you feel that the information that you had--

# 127 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure. The time.

# 128 MR. DARDEN:

Pardon?

# 129 MR. HEIDSTRA:

The time.

# 130 MR. DARDEN:

Just the time?

# 131 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, I thought that was very important.

# 132 MR. DARDEN:

Well, what about your observations of a white vehicle that looked like a Bronco? Did you think that was important?

# 133 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure it was important, but it was a big distance. I couldn't see exactly what it was.

# 134 MR. DARDEN:

And the fact that you heard two voices, you thought that was important?

# 135 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 136 MR. DARDEN:

And you don't know why the Prosecution didn't call you, do you?

# 137 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No idea.

# 138 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 139 MR. DARDEN:

When you walked down the alley, you said it was 10:30 or 10:35 when you first heard the dog bark, right?

# 140 MR. HEIDSTRA:

About that time, yes.

# 141 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And then you walked down the alley.

# 142 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered, your Honor.

# 143 THE COURT:

Overruled. Overruled.

# 144 MR. DARDEN:

Right?

# 145 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 146 MR. DARDEN:

How long is that alley?

# 147 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I have no idea. I can't say that in English. I don't know the yards in English. Would be in meters would be.

# 148 MR. DARDEN:

How many meters?

# 149 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, my God. That would be at least hundred meters, 150 meters, something like that I guess. I don't know for sure.

# 150 MR. DARDEN:

And it took you what; more than 10 minutes to walk a hundred meters?

# 151 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No 10 minutes.

# 152 MR. DARDEN:

Pardon?

# 153 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I was at the corner about 10:35, around 10:35, and I turned around.

# 154 MR. DARDEN:

I thought you said you were at the corner around 10:30.

# 155 MR. HEIDSTRA:

10:30, 10:35.

# 156 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, I object to that.

# 157 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 158 MR. DARDEN:

At any event, it took you 10 minutes to walk that hundred meters?

# 159 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not 10 minutes.

# 160 MR. DARDEN:

5 minutes?

# 161 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, about that. Because I stood in the alley for a couple of minutes listening to the commotion there.

# 162 MR. DARDEN:

So is it fair to say that it takes you about what, three minutes to walk a hundred meters with your dogs?

# 163 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. But I stood still there. I was standing there listening to the noise and the voices for a couple of minutes.

# 164 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. So your actual walking time in the alley then was what? Three minutes?

# 165 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. More. Four minutes, something, or five minutes.

# 166 MR. DARDEN:

When Mr. Cochran asked you those additional questions this morning, you took a look at the letter that Mr. Bailey sent you; is that right?

# 167 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I did, yes.

# 168 MR. DARDEN:

This was the first laminated letter that you've ever received?

# 169 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Pardon?

# 170 MR. DARDEN:

Is this the first time that you ever received a laminated letter?

# 171 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 172 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, objection. Irrelevant and immaterial.

# 173 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 174 MR. DARDEN:

You never received a laminated letter from the Prosecution I take it?

# 175 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never, no.

# 176 MR. DARDEN:

You also told us that you know Christian Anders; is that right?

# 177 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. I see him sometime passing me.

# 178 MR. DARDEN:

And he is someone that you see often walking his dogs; is that right?

# 179 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. He has a little tiny dog, yes.

# 180 MR. DARDEN:

I'm sorry?

# 181 MR. HEIDSTRA:

A tiny little dog, yes.

# 182 MR. DARDEN:

And what kind of dog does he have?

# 183 MR. HEIDSTRA:

A Shih Tzu or something like that.

# 184 MR. DARDEN:

I'm sorry. What was that?

# 185 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Shih Tzu. Shih Tzu.

# 186 MR. DARDEN:

And since June 12th, 1994, you and he have ran into each other?

# 187 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. I see him sometimes walking the dog.

# 188 MR. DARDEN:

And you and he have talked about the case, correct?

# 189 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yeah. Because he has a TV program. So he was interested.

# 190 MR. DARDEN:

He has a TV program on cable?

# 191 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 192 MR. DARDEN:

He asked you to come on to his program?

# 193 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 194 MR. DARDEN:

And you've known Mr. Anders several years; is that right?

# 195 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 196 MR. DARDEN:

How long have you known him?

# 197 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Since--the first time I met him is not even a year. I know he lived in the neighborhood, but I never talked before with him.

# 198 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. But you did talk to him about the case?

# 199 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes. We talked about it.

# 200 MR. DARDEN:

Did you tell Mr. Anders that you recognized that the second voice that you heard as Mr. Simpson's voice?

# 201 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never said that. He asked me, "Do you think it was O.J.," and I said, "I don't know. I never saw the person."

# 202 MR. DARDEN:

Isn't it true that when Mr. Anders asked you about the second voice, that you responded to him, quote, "The thing is clear to me it was O.J.," unquote?

KEY QUOTE

# 203 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. Never said that. He asked me, "Do you think it's O.J.?"

# 204 MR. DARDEN:

Did you also tell Mr. Anders that the vehicle you saw was a white Bronco?

# 205 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not a white Bronco. I said it was a big Jeep like. It could have been, but I was not sure at all.

# 206 MR. DARDEN:

Didn't you tell Mr. Anders that you observed a white Bronco dashing away from an intersection at Bundy?

# 207 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not dashing. Not dashing. And not--I didn't say Bronco. He said, "Could it have been a Bronco?" I said, "I don't know. It could be, but I'm not sure it's the same size as a Blazer."

KEY QUOTE

# 208 MR. DARDEN:

And didn't you also tell Mr. Anders that that vehicle had tinted windows?

# 209 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. It looked like in the dark. When it came--dark windows. It looked like it was tinted windows. It looked--I'm not for sure, but it looked like.

# 210 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 211 MR. DARDEN:

Thank you, sir.

# 212 MR. HEIDSTRA:

You're welcome.

# 213 MR. DARDEN:

Good afternoon.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Christopher Darden

Isn't it true that when Mr. Anders asked you about the second voice, that you responded to him, quote, 'The thing is clear to me it was O.J.,' unquote?

The most explosive moment of the examination — Darden puts a direct O.J. identification in Heidstra's mouth via Anders, which Heidstra flatly denies.

Robert Heidstra

I can't recall that. I said big Jeep or Blazer like car. It could have been a Bronco. I don't know. But I didn't say specifically a Bronco.

Heidstra opens the door — his concession that it 'could have been a Bronco' undercuts his earlier denials and is exactly what Darden wants.

Robert Heidstra

I came out of the darkness. I don't know from where.

Heidstra undermines his own earlier confident placement of the vehicle, admitting he couldn't see the mouth of the alley.

Robert Heidstra

Idaho. Potatoes.

Spontaneous and characterful aside — illustrates Heidstra's idiosyncratic communication style throughout the examination.

Robert Heidstra

Not dashing. Not dashing. And not--I didn't say Bronco. He said, 'Could it have been a Bronco?' I said, 'I don't know. It could be, but I'm not sure it's the same size as a Blazer.'

Heidstra's clearest rebuttal to Darden's impeachment via Anders — he claims he was answering a leading question, not volunteering the Bronco ID.

Evidence (3)

Informal

Photographs of Nicole Brown's dog's bloody paw prints heading south on Bundy

discussed — Darden uses them to corroborate the vehicle's southbound direction

Informal

Laminated letter from F. Lee Bailey sent to Heidstra

discussed — Darden highlights the unusual nature of a laminated letter to suggest defense cultivation of the witness

Informal

Heidstra's television news interview

discussed — Darden uses Heidstra's on-camera statement that the intersection was 'well lit' to contradict his claim the alley mouth was too dark to see

Notable Exchanges (4)

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Darden confronts Heidstra with Christian Anders's account that Heidstra said 'the thing is clear to me it was O.J.' Heidstra denies it, insisting Anders posed the question and he said he didn't know.

confrontational

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Darden methodically establishes that Heidstra told Marilee Kane the car was a white Bronco and that he left 'a little late.' Heidstra disputes the wording each time but makes meaningful concessions.

strategic

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Darden exploits a contradiction between Heidstra's claim the alley was 'completely dark' and his own on-camera statement that the Bundy/Dorothy intersection was 'well lit.' Heidstra tries to split the distinction between intersection lighting and alley darkness.

revealing

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Darden presses Heidstra's timeline inconsistency — 10:30 vs. 10:35 — and tries to show the five-minute alley walk with pauses doesn't square with Heidstra's stated times.

probing

Light Moments (2)

Robert Heidstra

When asked about Idaho Street, Heidstra volunteers 'Idaho. Potatoes.' — apparently to help Darden spell or understand the street name.

Robert Heidstra

Heidstra cannot remember the alley length in yards and apologizes: 'I have no idea. I can't say that in English... Would be in meters would be.'

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Robert Heidstra

prior inconsistent statement via third-party witness

Darden uses Marilee Kane's account to suggest Heidstra previously said the vehicle was a 'white Bronco' and that he left 'a little late' — both of which Heidstra disputes but does not cleanly refute.

⚔ Robert Heidstra

prior inconsistent statement via third-party witness

Darden uses Christian Anders's account to allege Heidstra said 'the thing is clear to me it was O.J.' and described the vehicle as a 'white Bronco dashing away.' Heidstra denies both characterizations.

⚔ Robert Heidstra

self-contradiction

Darden contrasts Heidstra's trial claim that the alley mouth was 'completely dark' with his own televised statement that the Bundy/Dorothy intersection was 'well lit,' implying Heidstra is shading his testimony.

⚔ Robert Heidstra

bias / witness cultivation

Darden highlights that Heidstra received a laminated letter from F. Lee Bailey (unique in Heidstra's experience) and that the defense cultivated him while the prosecution passed, suggesting Heidstra's sympathies shifted accordingly.

Witness Demeanor

Heidstra frequently asks 'Pardon?' suggesting difficulty with English or a stalling technique

Heidstra is combative on specific word choices ('Never said little late. I left late') while conceding larger points

Heidstra volunteers information unprompted, sometimes helping Darden's case

Objections

9 objections (2 sustained, 7 overruled)

Proceeding 6781 • 213 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103