Cross-examination of Shirley Baker

📄 Cross-examination of Shirley Baker — Tuesday, July 11, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\11\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-SHIRLEY-B.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 112 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Shirley Baker Redirect examination of Shirley Baker ▶

Witness: Shirley Baker
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, July 11, 1995 • Utterances: 132

Marcia Clark cross-examines Shirley Baker, OJ Simpson's sister, about her movements and observations at Rockingham on the night of June 13 and morning of June 14, 1994. Clark methodically probes who was present at the house and whether Baker witnessed Robert Kardashian removing the Louis Vuitton garment bag Simpson brought back from Chicago. Baker denies seeing the bag and acknowledges she had limited awareness of comings and goings due to the chaos of the evening.

# 1 MS. CLARK:

Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

# 2 MS. CLARK:

Good morning, Miss Baker.

# 3 MS. BAKER:

Good morning.

# 4 MS. CLARK:

Can you tell was time it was when you went up to the bedroom?

# 5 MS. BAKER:

It was a little after 9:00.

# 6 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And then after--at that point, when you went up to the bedroom, when did you leave?

# 7 MS. BAKER:

Say that again.

# 8 MS. CLARK:

I'm sorry. How long did you stay in the bedroom?

# 9 MS. BAKER:

I stayed in the--I was in the bedroom the entire time. A little after 10:00 my husband and my daughter, two of my daughters arrived, and my husband came upstairs. We met on the stairway. I told him that we were sleeping in O.J.'s room that night and he said, "Where are we sleeping?" And I said, "Well, we will sleep on the couch and one of us will sleep on the bed. I want to be close to him, I want to be near him." And he said, "Okay." And that is what we did all night.

# 10 MS. CLARK:

Okay.

# 11 MS. BAKER:

And the next morning.

# 12 MS. CLARK:

Now, when you met him on the stairs, did you take him downstairs, get him something to drink or eat?

# 13 MS. BAKER:

No. My nieces were there, my sisters were there. I had three daughters that was there. There was a house full of people.

KEY QUOTE

# 14 MS. CLARK:

Okay. So did you not give your husband anything to eat or drink? I'm talking about regular beverages. I'm not talking about drink drink. I'm talking about something to sustain him, some liquid, some food, anything?

# 15 MS. BAKER:

We didn't think about eating. Our concern was we wanted to be--we were a family and Nicole had been killed and we wanted to be with O.J., we wanted to be with the children, we wanted to be together. I didn't even think about food.

# 16 MS. CLARK:

Food was brought in, though, wasn't it?

# 17 MS. BAKER:

The next day, yes.

# 18 MS. CLARK:

So you went up to the bedroom at about nine o'clock and at about ten o'clock you met your husband on the stairway; is that right?

# 19 MS. BAKER:

That's correct.

# 20 MS. CLARK:

And you spoke to him there?

# 21 MS. BAKER:

Yes.

# 22 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And then after you spoke to him on the stairway did you go downstairs with him at any point?

# 23 MS. BAKER:

No, not that night.

# 24 MS. CLARK:

You stayed with him on the stairway there?

# 25 MS. BAKER:

I met him on the stairway, we spoke, we embraced. I think he kissed me on the cheek. We turned around, walked back up the stairway and went into O.J.'s room.

# 26 MS. CLARK:

You heard Ron Shipp testify to the conversation he had with Mr. Simpson about having a dream about killing Nicole. Do you recall that testimony?

# 27 MS. BAKER:

I heard it on the TV I wasn't in the courtroom. I got sent out of the courtroom when he was testifying.

KEY QUOTE

# 28 MS. CLARK:

Okay. You watched that testimony on TV, didn't you?

# 29 MS. BAKER:

Yes, I did.

# 30 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Now, when you spent the--when you got up the next morning on the 14th did you see Mr. Simpson?

# 31 MS. BAKER:

I saw him--he was in the bed. He never left the bed.

# 32 MS. CLARK:

Okay.

# 33 MS. BAKER:

Except to go into his bathroom.

# 34 MS. CLARK:

Okay. On the day of the 14th did he leave the house at some point?

# 35 MS. BAKER:

At some point, yes.

# 36 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And were you staying at the house?

# 37 MS. BAKER:

I live at the house.

# 38 MS. CLARK:

Okay. I'm talking about in that week. I know that is true now. Did you stay there the whole week?

# 39 MS. BAKER:

I lived there then.

# 40 MS. CLARK:

All right. Did he come back on the 14th?

# 41 MS. BAKER:

We were in and out of the house. I don't know the comings and goings. Once Robert Kardashian and Howard Weitzman came, they were dealing with O.J. And at that point I was dealing with my niece and nephew and we were coming and going. I was leaving the house, I was there some time, I wasn't there. I was taking care of my mother and my children.

# 42 MS. CLARK:

Okay.

# 43 MS. BAKER:

So at that time I don't know about O.J.'s coming and going on that particular day.

# 44 MS. CLARK:

All right. And when you say your niece and nephew, you mean Arnelle and Jason, correct?

# 45 MS. BAKER:

Arnelle and Jason.

# 46 MS. CLARK:

Did you not see Sydney and Justin there, did you?

# 47 MS. BAKER:

Sydney and Justin had already left when we got there.

# 48 MS. CLARK:

Okay. During the time that you were staying there, which was that whole week, you did not see Sydney and Justin at Rockingham; is that correct?

# 49 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection. It is beyond the scope.

# 50 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 51 MS. BAKER:

No.

# 52 MS. CLARK:

Now, when Mr. Simpson left on the 14th, do you know where he went?

# 53 MS. BAKER:

I don't even know if he left on the 14th. The days after the initial day everything started running back and forth together.

# 54 MS. CLARK:

Uh-huh.

# 55 MS. BAKER:

So if he left, no, I wouldn't know where he left because I didn't go with him.

# 56 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Do you recall--

# 57 MS. CLARK:

Excuse me a minute.

# 58 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 59 MS. CLARK:

Did you see Robert Kardashian at the house, Miss Baker?

# 60 MS. BAKER:

Yes, I did.

# 61 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Did you see when he--what time was it when you got there on the 13th?

# 62 MS. BAKER:

It was the second time?

# 63 MS. CLARK:

No, no. Oh, yeah, that's right, I'm sorry.

KEY QUOTE

# 64 MS. BAKER:

It was after seven o'clock.

# 65 MS. CLARK:

First time what time was it when you got there?

# 66 MS. BAKER:

We caught the three o'clock flight from San Francisco and my daughter picked us up from the airport. It was about 4:30, five o'clock.

# 67 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Did you see Mr. Kardashian carry away the Louie Vitton garment bag that Mr. Simpson had brought back with him from Chicago?

# 68 MS. BAKER:

No.

# 69 MS. CLARK:

You never saw that bag?

# 70 MS. BAKER:

No.

# 71 MS. CLARK:

During the evening that you spent in Mr. Simpson's bedroom, did you ever leave the room to change clothes or go to the bathroom or anything?

# 72 MS. BAKER:

I went to the bath--the front bathroom, Nicole's bathroom.

# 73 MS. CLARK:

Nicole's? And what about your husband?

# 74 MS. BAKER:

My husband was on the couch.

# 75 MS. CLARK:

Did he ever leave the room?

# 76 MS. BAKER:

When he went to the bathroom he either went to Nicole's bathroom or to O.J.'s bathroom.

# 77 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And your children were staying downstairs; is that right?

# 78 MS. BAKER:

Two of them stayed out in one of the guest houses, yes.

# 79 MS. CLARK:

Do you know which guest house they stayed in?

# 80 MS. BAKER:

Whichever one was vacant at that time.

# 81 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Arnelle was--was there, correct?

# 82 MS. BAKER:

Correct.

# 83 MS. CLARK:

On the evening of the 13th do you recall where she was at about eight o'clock in the early evening hours?

# 84 MS. BAKER:

We were all downstairs. Umm--

# 85 MS. CLARK:

Do you recall--let me ask it this way. I will make it more specific.

# 86 MS. BAKER:

Okay.

# 87 MS. CLARK:

Do you recall at some point that she went to her room?

# 88 MS. BAKER:

No, I don't.

# 89 MS. CLARK:

Okay. You weren't focusing on her?

# 90 MS. BAKER:

No, because at that time when we originally got there, when my mother and I got there, we went to the TV room and we were sitting on the couch with O.J.

# 91 MS. CLARK:

Uh-huh.

# 92 MS. BAKER:

There were a lot of people coming and going. The telephone was ringing and we were sitting there with O.J.

# 93 MS. CLARK:

Okay. So you were focused there, correct, and you weren't particularly paying attention to the people that were coming and going?

# 94 MS. BAKER:

No, not really.

# 95 MS. CLARK:

All right. So if I asked you who was there and who was not there, you are not going to be able to tell me; is that right?

# 96 MS. BAKER:

Outside of my family--

# 97 MS. CLARK:

All right.

# 98 MS. BAKER:

--Robert Kardashian and a few people that I know.

# 99 MS. CLARK:

How about Mr. Simpson's lawyer, Skip Taft, do you remember him being?

# 100 MS. BAKER:

I don't remember seeing Skip that night, no.

KEY QUOTE

# 101 MS. CLARK:

How about Kato Kaelin, do you remember seeing him there?

# 102 MS. BAKER:

Oh, yes, he was there.

# 103 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And what about Howard Weitzman, do you know if he was there?

# 104 MS. BAKER:

I saw him the next morning.

# 105 MS. CLARK:

Okay. You didn't see him there that day?

# 106 MS. BAKER:

I didn't see him--

# 107 MS. CLARK:

Or you don't recall?

# 108 MS. BAKER:

No.

# 109 MS. CLARK:

He could have been there, but you don't remember? Is that--

# 110 MS. BAKER:

I didn't see him.

# 111 MS. CLARK:

All right. May I have a moment?

# 112 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 113 MS. CLARK:

Since November have you been staying at Rockingham?

# 114 MS. BAKER:

Yes. I stayed there all the time. Actually Rockingham is now my home.

# 115 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And does--does your sister Carmelita Durio stay there also?

# 116 MS. BAKER:

Yes.

# 117 MS. CLARK:

And she has been for sometime as well?

# 118 MS. BAKER:

Yes, she has.

# 119 MS. CLARK:

Does Arnelle visit there frequently or does she stay there?

# 120 MS. BAKER:

Arnelle lives there.

# 121 MS. CLARK:

Okay. So the three of you are all living there together at this point?

# 122 MS. BAKER:

Well, there is more than three of us. There is Arnelle, there is Jason, there is my husband and myself, my sister Carmelita, my mother when she comes down here, and my children when they are in town.

KEY QUOTE

# 123 MS. CLARK:

Okay.

# 124 MS. BAKER:

And Paula when she is in town.

# 125 MS. CLARK:

All right.

# 126 MS. BAKER:

So every room is--it is full now.

# 127 MS. CLARK:

Okay. So the whole family. And since this--since the beginning of this trial at least, or since November, since November, you and your sister Carmelita and Arnelle and Jason have been full-time residents there?

# 128 MS. BAKER:

Mr. Baker, my husband Ben.

# 129 MS. CLARK:

Yes.

# 130 MS. BAKER:

Yes, we have.

# 131 MS. CLARK:

Thank you, ma'am.

# 132 THE COURT:

Mr. Shapiro.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Shirley Baker

No.

Baker's flat denial of seeing Kardashian carry away Simpson's Louis Vuitton garment bag — a central piece of the defense's alleged evidence-handling controversy

Shirley Baker

Well, there is more than three of us. There is Arnelle, there is Jason, there is my husband and myself, my sister Carmelita, my mother when she comes down here, and my children when they are in town. And Paula when she is in town.

Establishes that a large family contingent, including Simpson's girlfriend Paula, had effectively moved into Rockingham since November, relevant to witness bias and access to the property

Shirley Baker

I heard it on the TV I wasn't in the courtroom. I got sent out of the courtroom when he was testifying.

Confirms Baker was excluded from the courtroom during Ron Shipp's testimony but watched it on television — typical witness exclusion rule

Shirley Baker

Actually Rockingham is now my home.

Underscores Baker's deep entanglement with the defendant and his property, supporting an inference of bias

Evidence (1)

Informal

Louis Vuitton garment bag Simpson brought back from Chicago, allegedly carried away by Robert Kardashian

discussed — Baker denies seeing it

Notable Exchanges (2)

Marcia Clark•Shirley Baker

Clark asks point-blank whether Baker saw Kardashian carry away Simpson's Louis Vuitton bag; Baker gives a flat denial and says she never saw the bag at all

strategic

Marcia Clark•Shirley Baker

Clark establishes that Baker, her husband, her sister, Arnelle, Jason, and Paula Barbieri are all living full-time at Rockingham since at least November, painting a picture of a household fully aligned with the defendant

revealing

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Shirley Baker

bias

Clark establishes that Baker has been living at Rockingham since November alongside other Simpson family members, suggesting her testimony is colored by proximity to and dependence on the defendant

⚔ Shirley Baker

limited perception

Clark gets Baker to concede she was not paying attention to who was coming and going on the evening of June 13, undermining the value of her presence as a corroborating witness

Objections

1 objections (0 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 6718 • 132 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103