Direct examination of Carmelita Simpson Durio

📄 Direct examination of Carmelita Simpson Durio — Monday, July 10, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\10\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-CARMELIT.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 111 of 167

◀ Witness permission granted Sidebar: witness testimony ▶

Witness: Carmelita Simpson-Durio
Examiner: Robert Shapiro
Called by: Defense • Date: Monday, July 10, 1995 • Utterances: 256

Carmelita Simpson Durio, OJ Simpson's youngest sister, testified about the night of June 13, 1994 at the Rockingham home. The core purpose of her testimony was to attack Ron Shipp's credibility by portraying him as drunk that evening, and to establish that Simpson was never left alone with Shipp — undermining Shipp's earlier testimony that Simpson had privately confided in him. Darden's cross-examination chipped away at her observations by noting she couldn't see the stairway from the TV room and raising the possibility that Shipp's red eyes reflected grief rather than intoxication.

# 1 THE CLERK:

Raise your right hand, please. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this Court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

# 2 MS. DURIO:

I do.

# 3 THE CLERK:

Please have a seat in the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

# 4 MS. DURIO:

Carmelita Simpson Durio, C-A-R-M-E-L-I-T-A S-I-M-P-S-O-N-D-U-R-I-O.

# 5 MR. SHAPIRO:

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good afternoon.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

# 6 MR. SHAPIRO:

And good afternoon, Mrs. Durio.

# 7 MS. DURIO:

Good afternoon.

# 8 MR. SHAPIRO:

Are you a little bit nervous this afternoon?

# 9 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 10 MR. SHAPIRO:

You've been in this courtroom throughout the entire trial; have you not?

# 11 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 12 MR. SHAPIRO:

And you're here because you are related to Mr. Simpson?

# 13 MS. DURIO:

Yes, I am.

# 14 MR. SHAPIRO:

And what is your relationship?

# 15 MS. DURIO:

I'm his youngest sister.

# 16 MR. SHAPIRO:

How many other sisters are in the family?

# 17 MS. DURIO:

I have one sister and two brothers.

# 18 MR. SHAPIRO:

And two brothers?

# 19 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 20 MR. SHAPIRO:

And during the time that you have been in the courthouse watching the trial, have you also been gainfully employed?

# 21 MS. DURIO:

Yes, I have.

# 22 MR. SHAPIRO:

What is your employment?

# 23 MS. DURIO:

I--who I work for?

# 24 MR. SHAPIRO:

Yes.

# 25 MS. DURIO:

I work for de salvo trucking company in San Francisco.

# 26 MR. SHAPIRO:

And what do you do for them?

# 27 MS. DURIO:

I'm an executive administrative assistant.

# 28 MR. SHAPIRO:

And how are you able to maintain your job and come to Court every day?

# 29 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. Irrelevant.

# 30 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 31 MS. DURIO:

Well, I'm working on a special project. I work every evenings after I get out of Court until about 1:00 or 2 o'clock in the morning. On Thursdays, I fly home, Thursday evenings, and I work in my office on Friday, Saturday, half a day Sunday, I go to church, then I come back down here.

# 32 MR. SHAPIRO:

I want to direct your attention to the date of June the 13th. Were you notified of a horrible event--

# 33 MS. DURIO:

Yes, I was.

# 34 MR. SHAPIRO:

--on that date? And how were you so notified and what were you notified of?

# 35 MS. DURIO:

I was at work, and I received a call from a cousin who said that her daughter had heard on the radio in Atlanta that something had happened to one of my ex-sister-in-laws. She wasn't sure which one it was.

# 36 MR. SHAPIRO:

And as a result of that, did you eventually find and come to learn that Nicole Brown Simpson had been murdered?

# 37 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 38 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you make arrangements to leave your family home and come to Los Angeles?

# 39 MS. DURIO:

Yes, I did.

# 40 MR. SHAPIRO:

And did you arrive in Los Angeles that evening?

# 41 MS. DURIO:

Yes, I did.

# 42 MR. SHAPIRO:

With whom did you arrive?

# 43 MS. DURIO:

My husband Charles.

# 44 MR. SHAPIRO:

And when you arrived in Los Angeles, did you immediately go to the home of your brother, O.J. Simpson, on Rockingham?

# 45 MS. DURIO:

Yes, I did.

# 46 MR. SHAPIRO:

And did you arrive there in the evening?

# 47 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 48 MR. SHAPIRO:

Were there any other family members that were there when you arrived?

# 49 MS. DURIO:

My mother, my sister Shirley, Arnelle, my niece, Cherry. Those were the only family--O.J. those were the only family members.

# 50 MR. SHAPIRO:

Were there other friends and acquaintances that were there?

# 51 MS. DURIO:

Yes. Cathy Randa, Bob Kardashian, Joe Stellini, Ron Shipp, and there were quite a few other people. People were coming in and out, but I can't remember their names.

# 52 MR. SHAPIRO:

What was the atmosphere at the family home that evening?

# 53 MS. DURIO:

Very quiet. We were basically in shock trying to figure out what had happened. We had heard so many different stories and no one knew.

# 54 MR. SHAPIRO:

Your brother was there?

# 55 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 56 MR. SHAPIRO:

And did you have a chance to comfort him?

# 57 MS. DURIO:

Briefly.

# 58 MR. SHAPIRO:

And did you have a chance to be with him?

# 59 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 60 MR. SHAPIRO:

And to observe him?

# 61 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 62 MR. SHAPIRO:

And how would you describe his mood, his demeanor?

# 63 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. Irrelevant.

# 64 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 65 MS. DURIO:

What I would say is that he was out of it. You know, he was shocked, dazed. It was--he was just there.

# 66 MR. SHAPIRO:

Where was he when you made your first observations?

# 67 MS. DURIO:

He was sitting on the couch in the family room with my mother.

# 68 MR. SHAPIRO:

You also mentioned that there was a man named Ron Shipp who was there?

# 69 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 70 MR. SHAPIRO:

Where did you see him when you were in the downstairs area of the home?

# 71 MS. DURIO:

He was sitting at the bar area off from the family room.

# 72 MR. SHAPIRO:

And what was he doing?

# 73 MS. DURIO:

He was drinking.

# 74 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you have an occasion to form an opinion as to the amount of alcohol he had consumed?

# 75 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 76 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 77 MR. SHAPIRO:

How long did you observe Mr. Shipp at the bar?

# 78 MS. DURIO:

He was there a long time with the exception of once.

# 79 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you talk to them--talk to him?

# 80 MS. DURIO:

Yes. Yes.

# 81 MR. SHAPIRO:

And I take it although this is a large home, this is a small area within the home where everybody was congregating?

# 82 MS. DURIO:

Yes, it is.

# 83 MR. SHAPIRO:

And did you have an opportunity to in your mind come to a conclusion as to whether or not he had been drinking alcohol?

# 84 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 85 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 86 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you see him drink any beverage?

# 87 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. Leading.

# 88 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 89 MS. DURIO:

Yes, I did.

# 90 MR. SHAPIRO:

What did you see him drink?

# 91 MS. DURIO:

Beer.

# 92 MR. SHAPIRO:

How did you know it was beer?

# 93 MS. DURIO:

He was drinking it out of the can.

# 94 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you see how many beers he drank?

# 95 MS. DURIO:

I wasn't counting, but I mean--he had beer.

# 96 MR. SHAPIRO:

Okay. Was he drinking over a period of time?

# 97 MS. DURIO:

Yes. From the time I was there until the time he left.

# 98 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you talk to him?

# 99 MS. DURIO:

Yes, I did.

# 100 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you observe his face?

# 101 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 102 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you observe his eyes?

# 103 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 104 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you get a chance to get close enough to smell his breath?

# 105 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 106 MR. SHAPIRO:

And did you notice anything as a result of those observations?

# 107 MS. DURIO:

I felt he was high, but--I mean, I've been around people that drink and I know when someone has had a couple of drinks.

KEY QUOTE

# 108 MR. SHAPIRO:

So your conclusion was he was high?

# 109 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 110 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you see your brother leave the downstairs area at some time that evening?

# 111 MS. DURIO:

Yes, I did.

# 112 MR. SHAPIRO:

Do you know approximately what time that was?

# 113 MS. DURIO:

I would say right around 9 o'clock.

# 114 MR. SHAPIRO:

And where did your brother go?

# 115 MS. DURIO:

He went upstairs.

# 116 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you go with him?

# 117 MS. DURIO:

Not at that point.

# 118 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did anyone else go with him?

# 119 MS. DURIO:

Bob Kardashian.

# 120 MR. SHAPIRO:

At some time later, did you go upstairs?

# 121 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 122 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you see anyone else go upstairs before you went upstairs?

# 123 MS. DURIO:

My sister.

# 124 MR. SHAPIRO:

And when you came upstairs, who was there?

# 125 MS. DURIO:

When I first went upstairs, it was just my husband, my sister, my brother. That's it.

# 126 MR. SHAPIRO:

And you brother--O.J. was where?

# 127 MS. DURIO:

He was in the bed.

# 128 MR. SHAPIRO:

What were the other people in the room doing?

# 129 MS. DURIO:

Well, my husband was in the other room. Shirley was stand--had just walked in and she was sitting on the couch. Bob Kardashian was leaving out of the room. He was leaving.

# 130 MR. SHAPIRO:

And how long were you in the room?

# 131 MS. DURIO:

Maybe three to five minutes.

# 132 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you spend the entire--did you sleep at your brother's house that night?

# 133 MS. DURIO:

Yes, I did.

# 134 MR. SHAPIRO:

And did any of your other family members sleep there?

# 135 MS. DURIO:

Yes. The whole family was there.

# 136 MR. SHAPIRO:

Where did you sleep?

# 137 MS. DURIO:

I actually slept downstairs on a little couch in the breakfast--off from the kitchen so I could be close to my mother.

# 138 MR. SHAPIRO:

And there weren't enough beds for everyone to sleep in?

# 139 MS. DURIO:

There was enough beds for the family to sleep in, yeah. But yeah, but I just slept down to be close to my mother.

# 140 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did anybody to your knowledge sleep in your brother's room?

# 141 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 142 MR. SHAPIRO:

Who slept there?

# 143 MS. DURIO:

Besides my brother?

# 144 MR. SHAPIRO:

Yes.

# 145 MS. DURIO:

My sister and my brother-in-law.

# 146 MR. SHAPIRO:

To your knowledge, did you ever see--did you ever see Ron Shipp up in your brother's bedroom?

# 147 MS. DURIO:

Yes, I did.

# 148 MR. SHAPIRO:

Was anyone else up there when he was up there?

# 149 MS. DURIO:

Yes. My sister--I'm sorry.

# 150 MR. SHAPIRO:

Who else was there?

# 151 MS. DURIO:

My sister Shirley.

# 152 MR. SHAPIRO:

And yourself?

# 153 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 154 MR. SHAPIRO:

And your brother?

# 155 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 156 MR. SHAPIRO:

And for how long a period of time was Mr. Shipp there?

# 157 MS. DURIO:

A couple of minutes.

# 158 MR. SHAPIRO:

To your knowledge, was Mr. Shipp ever alone with your brother from the time you entered the house until the time you went to bed, which was--what time did you go to bed?

# 159 MS. DURIO:

I went to bed after 12:00, maybe around 12:30.

# 160 MR. SHAPIRO:

To your knowledge, was your brother ever alone with Mr. Shipp?

KEY QUOTE

# 161 MS. DURIO:

No, sir.

# 162 MR. SHAPIRO:

Thank you. Nothing further, your Honor.

# 163 THE COURT:

Mr. Darden.

# 164 MR. DARDEN:

Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN

# 165 MR. DARDEN:

Good afternoon.

# 166 MS. DURIO:

Good afternoon.

# 167 MR. DARDEN:

Are you from San Francisco?

# 168 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 169 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Did you spend most of your time that evening in the TV room?

# 170 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 171 MR. DARDEN:

And that's on the first floor?

# 172 MS. DURIO:

Yes, it is.

# 173 MR. DARDEN:

And directly adjacent to the TV room is the bar area; is that correct?

# 174 MS. DURIO:

Yes. It's all connected.

# 175 MR. DARDEN:

It's all connected. It's an open area?

# 176 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 177 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And so you can see the bar area from the TV room?

# 178 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 179 MR. DARDEN:

But you can't see the stairway leading upstairs to the bedroom from the TV room, can you?

# 180 MS. DURIO:

No.

# 181 MR. DARDEN:

And so if someone had walked up the stairway to the second floor, you couldn't see that from the television room?

# 182 MS. DURIO:

No.

# 183 MR. DARDEN:

And so you can't testify then as to who went upstairs and at what time and with whom that is throughout the night; is that correct?

# 184 MS. DURIO:

I could testify to who I saw go up the stairs and who I was talking to.

# 185 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Okay. And I appreciate that. But you can't see the stairway from the television room?

# 186 MS. DURIO:

No.

# 187 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Now, you say you saw Ron Shipp and that his face was puffy?

# 188 MS. DURIO:

I don't think I used those words.

# 189 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. How would you describe--

# 190 MS. DURIO:

I said he appeared to be high.

# 191 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. How would you describe his face?

# 192 MS. DURIO:

His eyes were glassy. He was muttering to himself and basically like talking in circles.

KEY QUOTE

# 193 MR. DARDEN:

Were his eyes swollen?

# 194 MS. DURIO:

I mean, I didn't look that closely at him. I don't know.

# 195 MR. DARDEN:

Were his eyes red?

# 196 MS. DURIO:

Yes, they were.

# 197 MR. DARDEN:

Did his face appear swollen?

# 198 MS. DURIO:

I don't know. I mean, I don't know what his face looks like normally.

# 199 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Do you know what his face looks like after he's been crying?

# 200 MS. DURIO:

No, I don't.

# 201 MR. DARDEN:

Do you know whether or not Ron Shipp had been crying and grieving over Nicole's death prior to your arrival that evening?

KEY QUOTE

# 202 MS. DURIO:

No, I don't.

# 203 MR. DARDEN:

You testified that you spent three to five minutes upstairs in the Defendant's bedroom?

# 204 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 205 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And Ron Shipp--

# 206 MS. DURIO:

Oh, excuse me. Let me clarify that. I wasn't actually in the bedroom. I was in the hallway. I was in the doorway.

# 207 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Okay. And so you only spent three to five minutes near the bedroom?

# 208 MS. DURIO:

Yes. Yes.

# 209 MR. DARDEN:

That entire night?

# 210 MS. DURIO:

No, no, no. At the point that I went upstairs, I was there about three to five minutes. I was up checking on my husband as well as my brother.

# 211 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. When the Defendant wept upstairs--

# 212 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 213 MR. DARDEN:

--at about 9 o'clock--

# 214 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 215 MR. DARDEN:

--where was Ron Shipp?

# 216 MS. DURIO:

He was sitting in the bar area talking to me.

# 217 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And were you in the bar area with him?

# 218 MS. DURIO:

Yes, I was.

# 219 MR. DARDEN:

In the TV room?

# 220 MS. DURIO:

Yes.

# 221 MR. DARDEN:

Did you ever see Ron Shipp leave the bar area?

# 222 MS. DURIO:

At one point. We both left at the same time.

# 223 MR. DARDEN:

What time was that?

# 224 MS. DURIO:

Between 9:30, 10 o'clock.

# 225 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And where did he go at that time?

# 226 MS. DURIO:

Upstairs.

# 227 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And you followed him upstairs?

# 228 MS. DURIO:

I didn't actually follow him. I went up and he came up behind me.

# 229 MR. DARDEN:

Was Ron Shipp and your brother close friends?

# 230 MS. DURIO:

I had never met Ron Shipp before to my knowledge. So I can't answer that. I don't believe so.

# 231 MR. DARDEN:

So you don't know what their relationship was?

# 232 MS. DURIO:

No.

# 233 MR. DARDEN:

You don't know whether or not the Defendant had ever confided in Ron Shipp before?

# 234 MS. DURIO:

No, I don't.

# 235 MR. DARDEN:

You don't know whether or not the Defendant had asked Ron Shipp on prior occasions to handle some personal matters on his behalf?

# 236 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection, your Honor. Beyond the scope.

# 237 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 238 MS. DURIO:

No, I don't.

# 239 MR. DARDEN:

Were you aware that Ron Shipp was a former police officer?

# 240 MS. DURIO:

Yes. He told me.

# 241 MR. DARDEN:

Did you know that prior to meeting Ron Shipp?

# 242 MS. DURIO:

No, I didn't.

# 243 MR. DARDEN:

Did you know when you met Ron Shipp that he had special training in crime scene investigations?

# 244 MS. DURIO:

No.

# 245 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection, your Honor.

# 246 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 247 MR. SHAPIRO:

Assumes facts not in evidence.

# 248 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 249 MR. DARDEN:

When you met Ron Shipp, did he--did he speak ill of your brother?

# 250 MS. DURIO:

He really didn't talk about my brother.

# 251 MR. DARDEN:

Did he appear to be there in support of your brother and your family?

# 252 MS. DURIO:

I assumed he was.

# 253 MR. SHAPIRO:

Okay. Thank you. That's all.

# 254 THE COURT:

Mr. Shapiro.

# 255 MR. SHAPIRO:

Nothing further. Thank you.

# 256 THE COURT:

Miss Durio, thank you very much. You are excused.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Carmelita Simpson-Durio

I felt he was high, but--I mean, I've been around people that drink and I know when someone has had a couple of drinks.

The core of her testimony — an attempt to discredit Ron Shipp's account of OJ's bedroom confession by painting him as intoxicated.

Carmelita Simpson-Durio

His eyes were glassy. He was muttering to himself and basically like talking in circles.

Detailed characterization of Shipp's alleged intoxication, offered to undercut his credibility as a witness.

Carmelita Simpson-Durio

To your knowledge, was your brother ever alone with Mr. Shipp? No, sir.

Direct rebuttal of the premise that Shipp could have had an intimate private conversation with OJ about dreams of killing Nicole.

Christopher Darden

Do you know whether or not Ron Shipp had been crying and grieving over Nicole's death prior to your arrival that evening?

Darden's counter-narrative — the red eyes and emotional state were grief, not drunkenness.

Evidence (1)

Informal

Layout of Rockingham home — TV room, bar area, stairway — and sight lines between rooms

discussed to establish what witness could and could not observe

Notable Exchanges (3)

Christopher Darden•Carmelita Simpson-Durio

Darden established that the stairway to the second floor is not visible from the TV room, undermining her claim to know who went upstairs and when.

strategic

Christopher Darden•Carmelita Simpson-Durio

Darden pressed whether Shipp's red eyes could indicate crying over Nicole's death rather than intoxication. Witness admitted she had no knowledge of Shipp's emotional state before her arrival.

revealing

Robert Shapiro•Carmelita Simpson-Durio

Shapiro walked her through Ron Shipp's presence at the bar, methodically building a picture of sustained drinking throughout the evening.

strategic

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Ron Shipp

lay witness observation of intoxication

Defense used OJ's sister to portray Shipp as drunk on beer throughout the evening of June 13, implying his later testimony about OJ's bedroom confession was unreliable.

⚔ Carmelita Simpson-Durio

limitation of observation

Darden established she could not see the stairway from the TV room, limiting her ability to testify credibly about who was alone with OJ and when.

⚔ Carmelita Simpson-Durio

bias / alternative explanation

Darden suggested her interpretation of Shipp's red eyes as intoxication was wrong — that he may simply have been grieving Nicole's death — and that as OJ's sister she lacked context to distinguish the two.

Witness Demeanor

Witness acknowledged being nervous at the start of testimony.

Witness self-corrected mid-answer (clarifying she was in the doorway/hallway, not inside the bedroom).

Witness pushed back on Darden's characterization — 'I don't think I used those words' — when he suggested she had described Shipp's face as puffy.

Objections

7 objections (3 sustained, 4 overruled)

Proceeding 6682 • 256 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103