Redirect examination of Rosa Lopez

📄 Redirect examination of Rosa Lopez — Friday, February 24, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\FEB\24\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-ROSA-L.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 25 of 167

◀ Cross-examination of Rosa Lopez (afternoon, part 2) Recross-examination of Rosa Lopez ▶

Witness: Rosa Lopez
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Friday, February 24, 1995 • Utterances: 415

Cochran conducted redirect examination of Rosa Lopez, a housekeeper and potential alibi witness, focusing on three things: rehabilitating her credibility after Darden's cross-examination, establishing her genuine fear of media harassment as the reason for her planned departure to El Salvador, and confirming she returned overnight from another state (arriving at 1:30 AM) out of a sense of duty to the court. Cochran read aloud from her signed declaration because she lacked her glasses, eliciting emotional testimony about feeling like 'a prisoner trapped in my own home.'

# 1 THE COURT:

MR. COCHRAN, ANY REDIRECT?

# 2 MR. COCHRAN:

YES, YOUR HONOR, I DO. THANK YOU VERY KINDLY.

# 3

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

# 4

BY MR. COCHRAN:

# 5 Q:

GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS LOPEZ.

# 6 A:

GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.

# 7 Q:

AND WHAT DO YOU REFER TO ME AS?

# 8 A:

HOW DO WHAT?

# 9 Q:

WHAT DO YOU CALL ME?

# 10 A:

JOHNNIE.

# 11 Q:

OKAY. YES. AND IN THAT CONNECTION WAS THERE -- WHEN DID YOU LEAVE LOS ANGELES TO GO TO THIS OTHER STATE?

# 12 A:

WHEN DID I LEAVE?

# 13 Q:

YES, TO GO TO THE OTHER STATE?

# 14 A:

I LEFT WEDNESDAY MORNING.

# 15 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU TALK TO YOUR LAWYER BEFORE YOU LEFT TO GO TO THIS OTHER STATE?

# 16 A:

NO, I DIDN'T CALL HIM.

# 17 Q:

AND SO THE RECORD IS CLEAR, WHEN I'M TALKING ABOUT YOUR LAWYER, I'M REFERRING TO MR. CARL JONES. ALL RIGHT?

# 18 A:

YES.

# 19 Q:

AND BEFORE YOU LEFT ON WEDNESDAY MR. JONES HAD ADVISED YOU YOU HAD TO BE IN COURT TODAY ON FRIDAY; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 20 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION, THAT IS LEADING.

# 21 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 22 ROSA LOPEZ:

(IN ENGLISH) YES.

# 23 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: AND YESTERDAY DID YOU MAKE A CALL TO MR. JONES AND TELL HIM WHERE YOU WERE?

# 24 A:

YES.

# 25 Q:

AND AFTER YOU TALKED TO MR. JONES DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO TALK TO MY LAW OFFICE ABOUT WHERE YOU WERE?

# 26 A:

YES.

# 27 Q:

AND THEREAFTER WERE RESERVATIONS MADE FOR YOU TO FLY BACK TO LOS ANGELES IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS SO YOU COULD BE HERE THIS MORNING?

# 28 A:

YES.

# 29 Q:

AND IN THAT CONNECTION THE FLIGHT THAT YOU CAME ON ARRIVED ABOUT 1:25 OR 1:30 IN THE MORNING?

# 30 A:

YES.

# 31 Q:

AND YOU WERE PICKED UP AT THE AIRPORT BY THE GENTLEMAN WHO WAS IN HERE THAT YOU CALL PATTY, OVER IN THE CORNER, MR. MC KENNA?

# 32 A:

YES.

# 33 Q:

AND WHAT TIME DID YOU GO TO BED THIS MORNING?

# 34 A:

AT 2:15, 2:20.

# 35 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT TIME DID YOU WAKE UP THIS MORNING?

# 36 A:

AT 5:00 IN THE MORNING.

# 37 Q:

AND WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRANGE TO MEET AT MY LAW OFFICE SOMETIME EARLY THIS MORNING?

# 38 A:

AT 6:00 IN THE MORNING, 7:30.

# 39 Q:

AND SO WHAT -- YOU ARRIVED IN LOS ANGELES AT 1:30, YOU WENT TO BED ABOUT -- SHORTLY AFTER 2:15; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 40 A:

YES.

# 41 Q:

YOU WERE UP BY 5:00?

# 42 A:

YES.

# 43 Q:

AND --

# 44 MR. DARDEN:

EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR.

# 45 MR. COCHRAN:

I AM NOT CLEAR WHAT TIME IT WAS.

# 46 MR. DARDEN:

IS MR. MC KENNA STILL IN THIS COURTROOM?

# 47 THE COURT:

YES, HE IS. MR. MC KENNA WHY DON'T YOU STEP OUT.

# 48 (MR. MC KENNA EXITS THE COURTROOM.)

# 49 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE AT THE LAW OFFICE, IF YOU RECALL?

# 50 A:

I DIDN'T NOTICE.

# 51 MR. DARDEN:

AND IS IRMA IN THE COURTROOM AS WELL, YOUR HONOR?

# 52 THE COURT:

YES, SHE IS. (POTENTIAL WITNESS EXITS THE COURTROOM.)

# 53 THE COURT:

MR. JONES WOULD LIKE TO LEAVE, TOO. PROCEED.

# 54 MR. COCHRAN:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 55 Q:

AND YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH US THIS MORNING BEFORE COMING TO COURT; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 56 A:

YES, YES.

# 57 Q:

NOW, MISS LOPEZ, DO YOU PLAN TO RETURN TO EL SALVADOR?

# 58 A:

YES.

# 59 Q:

AND --

# 60 A:

TOMORROW.

# 61 Q:

AND IN RESPONSE TO MR. DARDEN'S QUESTIONS THIS MORNING, THERE -- THE AGENCY THAT YOU DEAL WITH IS CALLED PAN AMERICANA TRAVEL SERVICE; IS THAT RIGHT, SYSTEM?

# 62 A:

YES.

# 63 Q:

AND I DID NOT HAVE LUNCH WITH YOU TODAY, DID I?

# 64 A:

NO, NO, SIR.

# 65 Q:

I CAME DOWN WHILE WAITING FOR THE CAR TO SPEAK TO YOU BRIEFLY AT LUNCHTIME?

# 66 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, MR. COCHRAN IS TESTIFYING.

# 67 MR. COCHRAN:

LET ME ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION.

# 68 THE COURT:

REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

# 69 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU SEE ME BRIEFLY AT LUNCH BEFORE I LEFT?

# 70 MR. DARDEN:

STILL LEADING.

# 71 THE COURT:

FOUNDATIONAL AT THIS POINT.

# 72 MR. COCHRAN:

FOUNDATIONAL. HE BROUGHT IT OUT.

# 73 Q:

DID WE EVER HAVE ANY KIND OF AN ARGUMENT AT ALL?

# 74 A:

NO.

# 75 Q:

DID WE TALK ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT YOU PLAN TO GO TO EL SALVADOR?

# 76 A:

YES.

# 77 Q:

DID YOU GIVE ME THE NAME OF YOUR TRAVEL AGENT?

# 78 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, THIS IS ALL LEADING. ALL LEADING.

# 79 MR. COCHRAN:

LET ME ASK THIS --

# 80 THE COURT:

IT IS.

# 81 MR. COCHRAN:

LET ME REPHRASE IT.

# 82 THE COURT:

PLEASE.

# 83 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: DID WE HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE NAME OF YOUR TRAVEL AGENT?

# 84 A:

YES.

# 85 Q:

WHILE I WAS THERE WAS A PHONE CALL MADE TO THE TRAVEL AGENT TO TRY TO REACH HER?

# 86 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, THIS IS LEADING.

# 87 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 88 MR. COCHRAN:

I'M ASKING WHETHER THERE WAS A PHONE CALL MADE TO THE TRAVEL AGENT. IT IS NOT LEADING.

# 89 THE COURT:

COUNSEL, WHETHER OR NOT IT IS LEADING OR NOT AT THIS POINT, LET'S GET TO THE POINT.

# 90 MR. COCHRAN:

ALL RIGHT.

# 91 Q:

WAS THE PHONE CALL MADE TO THE TRAVEL AGENT?

# 92 A:

YES.

# 93 Q:

AND IS HER NAME ZULEMA IIDA?

# 94 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT THIS WITNESS HAS ANY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE.

# 95 THE COURT:

THAT'S CORRECT. THIS IS INCREDIBLY LEADING, MR. COCHRAN.

# 96 MR. COCHRAN:

YES, ABSOLUTELY.

# 97 MR. DARDEN:

THERE IS A MOTION --

# 98 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, IF I COULD JUST -- I AM STILL ASKING THESE QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR. THERE IS AN OFFER OF PROOF. MAY I CONTINUE?

# 99 THE COURT:

I UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU ARE GOING.

# 100 MR. DARDEN:

OFFER OF PROOF.

# 101 THE COURT:

I UNDERSTAND WHERE WE ARE GOING WITH THIS SO WE HAVE ESTABLISHED WHO THE TRAVEL AGENT IS. LET'S PROCEED.

# 102 MR. COCHRAN:

I WAS TRYING -- IF I COULD ESTABLISH IT. MAY I DO THAT?

# 103 THE COURT:

I THOUGHT SHE SAID THAT WAS WHO IT WAS.

# 104 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: ZULEMA IIDA, I-I-D-A, IS THAT CORRECT?

# 105 A:

YES.

# 106 Q:

AND WERE ARRANGEMENTS MADE FOR MS. ZULEMA IIDA TO COME TO COURT THIS AFTERNOON?

# 107 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, THIS IS ALL LEADING?

# 108 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES.

# 109 MR. DARDEN:

ALL HEARSAY.

# 110 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU SEE --

# 111 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, THERE IS AN OBJECTION, LEADING AND HEARSAY AND MOTION TO STRIKE.

# 112 THE COURT:

OVERRULED AT THIS POINT.

# 113 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU SEE MISS ZULEMA IIDA OUT IN THE HALLWAY?

# 114 THE COURT:

COUNSEL, I'VE GOT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING. THE ISSUE IS, IS THIS PERSON LEAVING? IS THERE A BONA FIDE REASON FOR THAT PERSON TO LEAVE? NOBODY HAS BOTHERED TO DISCUSS ON PAGE 1 OF HER AFFIDAVIT ON PARAGRAPH 7, LINE 23, IT SAYS, "I HAVE FEAR FOR MY PERSONAL SAFETY AS WELL AS THE SAFETY OF MY FAMILY IF I REMAIN IN THIS COUNTRY." NOBODY HAS BOTHERED TO ASK THAT QUESTION. THAT SEEMS TO ME TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE. WHETHER OR NOT SHE HAS GOT A TRAVEL AGENT OR WHETHER OR NOT THAT TRAVEL AGENT IS GOING TO COME HERE IS NOT REAL INTERESTING TO ME.

# 115 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, THE WITNESS HAS INDICATED ALREADY THAT SHE WANTS TO LEAVE BECAUSE HALF HARASSMENT FROM THE PRESS.

# 116 THE COURT:

I UNDERSTAND.

# 117 MR. DARDEN:

SHE GAVE NO OTHER REASON. I THINK THAT EXCLUDES --

# 118 THE COURT:

I UNDERSTAND.

# 119 MR. COCHRAN:

IF THE COURT WOULD ALLOW ME ONE MOMENT. I APPRECIATE THE COURT'S UNDERSTANDING AND ANTICIPATING WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO. THE REASON WHY THE TRAVEL AGENT IS HERE, IT BEARS UPON QUESTIONS ASKED BY MR. DARDEN, YOUR HONOR, AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THIS LADY HAS MADE SOME RESERVATIONS TO TO GO TO EL SALVADOR THIS MONTH AND I EXPECT TO INTRODUCE AS TESTIMONY, SO --

# 120 THE COURT:

LET'S PROCEED.

# 121 MR. COCHRAN:

-- IF THE COURT WOULD ALLOW ME, I THINK THE COURT WILL UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO GET AT.

# 122 THE COURT:

LET'S PROCEED.

# 123 MR. COCHRAN:

MAY I APPROACH?

# 124 THE COURT:

YES.

# 125 MR. COCHRAN:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 126 THE COURT:

IT IS AN AWFUL LONG HEARING TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A HEARING.

KEY QUOTE

# 127 MR. COCHRAN:

I THINK SO, YOUR HONOR, BUT THEY TOOK UP TWO-THIRDS OF THE HEARING, YOUR HONOR. I WILL POINT THAT OUT.

# 128 MR. DARDEN:

WELL, SHE MADE A MATERIAL MISREPRESENTATION ON THE WITNESS STAND.

# 129 THE COURT:

MR. DARDEN, THANK YOU. LET'S PROCEED.

# 130 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE DECLARATION THAT YOU SIGNED ON FEBRUARY 17, 1995, DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

# 131 A:

YES, SIR.

# 132 Q:

AND WAS THIS DECLARATION READ TO YOU IN SPANISH BEFORE YOU SIGNED IT?

# 133 A:

YES.

# 134 Q:

AND WHO READ THIS DECLARATION TO YOU BEFORE YOU SIGNED IT?

# 135 A:

IRMA.

# 136 Q:

IS THAT THE LADY WHO LEFT A FEW MOMENTS AGO?

# 137 A:

YES.

# 138 Q:

AND YOU ARE AWARE THAT IRMA SPEAKS SPANISH; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 139 A:

YES.

# 140 Q:

ARE THE FACTS CONTAINED IN THIS DECLARATION TRUE AND CORRECT?

# 141 A:

YES.

# 142 Q:

AT THE TIME THIS DECLARATION WAS PREPARED WAS YOUR LAWYER, MR. CARL JONES, PRESENT?

# 143 A:

YES.

# 144 Q:

I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU A QUESTION OR TWO ABOUT THE DECLARATION IF I MIGHT.

# 145 A:

YES.

# 146 Q:

IN PARAGRAPH 7 I WANT YOU TO READ THIS, FIRST OF ALL, TO YOURSELF AND THEN I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION ABOUT IT.

# 147 A:

YOU READ TO IT ME, PLEASE.

# 148 MR. DARDEN:

I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO HAVING THE WITNESS READ THE DECLARATION BEFORE COUNSEL POSES THE QUESTION. IS HE GIVING TO IT HER TO REFRESH HER RECOLLECTION?

# 149 MR. COCHRAN:

IT IS A DECLARATION AND THE DECLARATION SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

# 150 THE COURT:

YES, IT IS HER DECLARATION.

# 151 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU READ IT TO YOURSELF?

# 152 A:

I CAN'T SEE BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE MY GLASSES.

# 153 MR. COCHRAN:

ALL RIGHT. MAY I READ TO IT HER, YOUR HONOR?

# 154 THE COURT:

YES.

# 155 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: IN PARAGRAPH 7 YOU INDICATE: "I HAVE A FEAR FOR MY PERSONAL SAFETY, AS WELL AS THE SAFETY OF MY FAMILY. IF I REMAIN IN THIS COUNTRY." I WANT --

# 156 A:

IT'S TRUE.

# 157 Q:

IS THAT TRUE?

# 158 A:

YES.

# 159 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND WHY DO YOU HAVE A FEAR FOR YOUR PERSONAL SAFETY, AS WELL AS THE SAFETY OF YOUR FAMILY IF YOU REMAIN IN THIS COUNTRY?

# 160 A:

BECAUSE EVERYBODY ALREADY KNOWS ME. WHEREVER I GO PEOPLE LOOK AT ME AND POINT AT ME AND SAY, "SEE, THAT'S THE WOMAN THAT IS IN MR. SIMPSON'S CASE" AND I'M AFRAID.

KEY QUOTE

# 161 Q:

YOU ARE AFRAID FOR YOUR PERSONAL SAFETY?

# 162 A:

YES.

# 163 Q:

WHEN YOU WENT DOWN TO -- WAS THERE A TIME YOU WENT DOWN TO THE UNEMPLOYMENT OFFICE?

# 164 A:

YES.

# 165 Q:

AND SPOKE WITH AN UNEMPLOYMENT COUNSELOR?

# 166 A:

YES.

# 167 Q:

AND DID THIS UNEMPLOYMENT COUNSELOR SAY SOMETHING TO YOU?

# 168 A:

A SECURITY.

# 169 Q:

ALL RIGHT. THIS SECURITY PERSON, DID THAT PERSON RECOGNIZE YOU?

# 170 A:

YES.

# 171 Q:

WHAT DID THAT PERSON SAY TO YOU?

# 172 A:

IT WAS A BLACK GUY. HE SAID TO ME "YOU ARE MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSEKEEPER." I SAID "NO."

# 173 Q:

DID THAT CONCERN YOU ALSO?

# 174 A:

YES, VERY MUCH. I WON'T GO BACK THERE.

# 175 Q:

WHAT ABOUT THE SAFETY OF YOUR FAMILY?

# 176 A:

I AM VERY SCARED FOR MY CHILDREN, TOO.

# 177 Q:

HAVE YOUR -- HAS YOUR DAUGHTER OR YOUR SON EXPRESSED ANY CONCERNS BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE RECOGNIZED EVERYWHERE?

# 178 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION, HEARSAY.

# 179 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 180 MR. COCHRAN:

WELL, YOUR HONOR, HOW WOULD WE GET AT THE SAFETY OF THE FAMILY FOR THIS HEARING? I'M TRYING TO ELICIT WHAT HER CONCERNS ARE. PART OF THE DECLARATION.

# 181 THE COURT:

CONCERNS ARE WHAT IS IN HER MIND.

# 182 MR. COCHRAN:

WELL, I'M ASKING WHAT -- I'M ASKING WHAT --

# 183 THE COURT:

YOU ARE SAYING THAT THERE IS A STATE OF MIND EXCEPTION THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO GET TO?

# 184 MR. COCHRAN:

YES, THERE IS.

# 185 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 186 MR. COCHRAN:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 187 Q:

BASED UPON YOUR CONVERSATION WITH YOUR CHILDREN, WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF REGARDING YOUR CONCERNS ABOUT THEIR SAFETY AND THE SAFETY OF YOUR GRANDCHILDREN?

# 188 A:

I'M VERY SCARED AND MY DAUGHTER IS ALSO VERY SCARED, UH-HUH.

# 189 Q:

HAS THAT BEEN ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THAT YOU HAVE HAD WITH YOUR DAUGHTER?

# 190 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION. THAT IS LEADING.

# 191 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES.

# 192 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 193 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: AND WHAT HAS YOUR DAUGHTER SAID TO YOU ABOUT THAT?

# 194 MR. DARDEN:

HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.

# 195 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 196 MR. COCHRAN:

STATE OF MIND.

# 197 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: WHAT HAS YOUR DAUGHTER SAID TO YOU ABOUT THAT?

# 198 A:

THAT THEY COULD EVEN KILL HER OR STEAL HER CHILDREN FROM HER.

KEY QUOTE

# 199 Q:

AND WHEN SHE SAID "THEY," DO YOU KNOW WHO SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT?

# 200 A:

YES.

# 201 Q:

WHO?

# 202 A:

THE PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE.

# 203 Q:

WHEN YOU TALKED TO YOUR DAUGHTER AND YOUR SON, IS THIS A MATTER THAT YOU ARE VERY SERIOUS ABOUT?

# 204 A:

YES.

# 205 Q:

WHEN YOU LEFT THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA ON WEDNESDAY, WHY DID YOU LEAVE?

# 206 A:

BECAUSE LIKE THAT, THEN THE CAMERA PEOPLE AND THE REPORTERS WON'T SEE ME ANY MORE AND I CAN TELL THEM THAT I AM NO LONGER THERE, THAT I AM GONE.

# 207 Q:

ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT YOU HAVE BECOME SO WELL-KNOWN THAT ANYBODY ON THE STREET --

# 208 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, LEADING.

# 209 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 210 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: WHAT IS YOUR CONCERN ABOUT YOUR PICTURE BEING ON TELEVISION?

# 211 A:

THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS ME, THAT WHEREVER I GO, WHETHER IT IS TO THE LAUNDRY, EVERYBODY LOOK AT ME. THEY ARE POINTING AT ME AND THEY ARE ASKING ME ABOUT O.J.'S CASE.

# 212 Q:

NOW, CONTINUING ON WITH THE DECLARATION, YOU SAY: "I WANT TO TESTIFY TRUTHFULLY, BUT I CANNOT STAND THE STRESS"; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 213 A:

YES.

# 214 Q:

"I AM A PRISONER TRAPPED IN MY OWN HOME. I CANNOT GO OUTSIDE."

# 215 A:

(IN ENGLISH) IT'S TRUE.

# 216 Q:

"I CANNOT VISIT MY RELATIVES IN LOS ANGELES FOR FEAR THAT THEY, TOO, WILL BE HARASSED."

# 217 MR. DARDEN:

IS THIS A QUESTION, YOUR HONOR? THIS IS LEADING.

# 218 THE COURT:

IS THERE A QUESTION?

# 219 MR. COCHRAN:

YES, THERE IS A QUESTION, IF YOU DON'T MIND.

# 220 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES.

# 221 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: THE QUESTION IS, IS THAT TRUE?

# 222 MR. DARDEN:

IT IS LEADING.

# 223 THE COURT:

WELL, COUNSEL, I HAVE ALREADY READ THE DECLARATION. I KNOW WHAT IT SAYS.

# 224 MR. COCHRAN:

SHE SAID SHE COULDN'T READ IT, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS THE REASON I WAS DOING IT.

# 225 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 226 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER, DO YOU KNOW ANYBODY BY THE NAME OF TONY FROST?

# 227 A:

NO.

# 228 THE COURT:

I THOUGHT HE WAS WITH THE STAR.

# 229 MR. COCHRAN:

THEY ARE ALL THE SAME.

# 230 Q:

BY THE STAR, DO YOU KNOW ANYBODY BY THE NAME OF TONY FROST?

# 231 A:

NO.

# 232 Q:

THAT YOU CAN IDENTIFY?

# 233 A:

NO.

# 234 Q:

NOW, PRESENTLY -- YOU HAVE NO SOURCE OF INCOME PRESENTLY; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 235 MR. DARDEN:

THIS IS LEADING, YOUR HONOR.

# 236 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. ACTUALLY, NO.

# 237 ROSA LOPEZ:

NO.

# 238 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. I FORGOT HE WAS ON THE OTHER SIDE FOR A MOMENT THERE.

KEY QUOTE

# 239 MR. COCHRAN:

ALL RIGHT.

# 240 THE COURT:

REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

# 241 MR. COCHRAN:

CERTAINLY, YOUR HONOR.

# 242 Q:

DO YOU HAVE ANY SOURCE OF INCOME PRESENTLY?

# 243 MR. DARDEN:

ALSO IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR.

# 244 THE COURT:

NO. OVERRULED.

# 245 ROSA LOPEZ:

NO.

# 246 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: HAS ANYBODY OFFERED YOU $5,000 OR ONE DOLLAR FOR YOUR TESTIMONY IN THIS CASE?

# 247 A:

NO.

# 248 Q:

DO YOU WANT ANY MONEY FOR TESTIFYING?

# 249 A:

NO, SIR.

# 250 Q:

DO YOU WANT ANY MONEY TO BE BROUGHT DOWN HERE AND HARASSED?

# 251 A:

NO.

# 252 Q:

DO YOU WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE?

# 253 A:

YES.

# 254 Q:

WHEN YOU FINISH COURT TODAY ARE YOU GOING BACK TO THIS OTHER STATE?

# 255 A:

YES, SIR.

# 256 Q:

AND DO YOU STILL PLAN TO LEAVE TO GO TO EL SALVADOR TOMORROW?

# 257 A:

YES, SIR.

# 258 Q:

NOW, YOU WERE ASKED SOME QUESTIONS BY THE OTHER LADY FROM CHANNEL 34. DO YOU RECALL THAT?

# 259 A:

YES.

# 260 Q:

I WANT TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT. HOW LONG DID THE CONVERSATION LAST BETWEEN YOU AND THE LADY FROM CHANNEL 34 ON LAST FRIDAY, THE 17TH?

# 261 A:

ABOUT 25 MINUTES OR 30, I THINK.

# 262 Q:

AT ANY TIME DURING THAT CONVERSATION DID YOU EVER TELL HER THAT YOUR LAWYER HAD SUGGESTED THAT YOU SHOULD -- THAT YOU CAN GO BACK TO EL SALVADOR?

# 263 A:

NO. I TOLD HER -- I ASKED MY LAWYER IF I COULD LEAVE AND HE SAID YES.

# 264 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, IN THE COURSE OF THIS CONVERSATION WITH THE LADY FROM CHANNEL 34 DID SHE EVER MENTION THE SUBJECT OF LAWYERS?

# 265 A:

SHE SAID TO ME THAT ALL OF YOU WERE NOT HELPING ME, THAT YOU WERE USING ME, THAT WHY DIDN'T I CALL MR. JOHN, THAT THEY COULD GIVE ME A LAWYER FROM THE STATION WHO SPOKE MY LANGUAGE AND TO HELP ME.

# 266 Q:

AND WHEN SHE ASKED AND MADE THIS OFFER OF A LAWYER FROM THE STATION, WHAT DID YOU SAY, IF ANYTHING?

# 267 A:

I SAID NO, THAT I HAD -- THAT I WAS GOING TO CALL MY LAWYER.

# 268 Q:

AND DID YOU CALL YOUR LAWYER AFTER THAT?

# 269 A:

YES.

# 270 Q:

AND YOU NEVER APPEARED ON CAMERA WITH THIS LADY, DID YOU?

# 271 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, LEADING.

# 272 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 273 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, WHO IS TRYING THE CASE? IS THIS --

# 274 MR. DARDEN:

WE BOTH ARE, YOUR HONOR.

# 275 MS. CLARK:

RIGHT.

# 276 THE COURT:

ONE LAWYER AT A TIME, THOUGH.

# 277 MR. COCHRAN:

THAT IS OKAY. I CAN HANDLE BOTH OF THEM, THAT'S ALL RIGHT.

# 278 MR. DARDEN:

I'M SURE YOU CAN, MR. COCHRAN.

# 279 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, WITH REGARD TO -- WELL, STRIKE THAT.

# 280 Q:

DID YOU EVER TELL THIS LADY, THE REPORTER, THAT YOU FELT ABANDONED BY THE DEFENSE LAWYERS BECAUSE THEY HADN'T CONTACTED YOU?

# 281 A:

NO.

# 282 Q:

AND DID THIS LADY SUGGEST THAT YOU CALL YOUR LAWYERS OR DID YOU CALL YOUR LAWYERS ON YOUR OWN?

# 283 A:

I CALLED THEM.

# 284 Q:

NOW, IN RESPONSE TO A COUPLE OF MR. DARDEN'S QUESTIONS, IN THE LAST -- IN 1994, IF YOU RECALL, HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU GO BACK TO EL SALVADOR, IF YOU WENT BACK TO EL SALVADOR?

# 285 A:

I WENT IN DECEMBER.

# 286 Q:

AND WHEN YOU WENT IN DECEMBER, DID YOU USE A PARTICULAR TRAVEL AGENT?

# 287 A:

YES.

# 288 Q:

AND WHICH TRAVEL AGENT WAS THAT?

# 289 A:

PAN AMERICANA.

# 290 Q:

IS THAT THE ONE ON SAN FERNANDO ROAD THAT YOU TOLD MR. DARDEN ABOUT?

# 291 A:

YES.

# 292 Q:

AND WHAT TRAVEL AGENT DID YOU USE AT THAT TIME?

# 293 A:

THAT SAME GIRL.

# 294 Q:

ZULEMA?

# 295 A:

YES.

# 296 Q:

NOW, IF YOU RECALL, DID YOU MAKE SOME RESERVATIONS TO GO TO EL SALVADOR EARLIER THIS MONTH, THE MONTH OF FEBRUARY?

# 297 MR. DARDEN:

IT IS LEADING, YOUR HONOR.

# 298 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 299 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES.

# 300 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: AND DID YOU MAKE RESERVATIONS ON A ONE-WAY TICKET?

# 301 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 302 Q:

ALL RIGHT. BUT YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO USE THOSE RESERVATIONS, WERE YOU?

# 303 A:

NO.

# 304 Q:

AND WHY WEREN'T YOU ABLE TO USE THEM?

# 305 A:

BECAUSE MY DAUGHTER NEEDED ME.

# 306 Q:

SHE WAS OUT OF TOWN PART OF THE TIME?

# 307 A:

SHE WAS WORKING IN NEW YORK.

# 308 Q:

WHEN DID YOUR DAUGHTER RETURN BACK TO THE LOS ANGELES AREA AFTER WORKING IN NEW YORK?

# 309 A:

SHE CAME ON TUESDAY NIGHT.

# 310 Q:

AND WHEN YOUR DAUGHTER WAS AWAY IN NEW YORK, WHO WAS LOOKING AFTER YOUR GRANDCHILDREN?

# 311 A:

I WAS.

# 312 Q:

AND ONCE YOUR DAUGHTER RETURNED FROM NEW YORK, DID YOUR DAUGHTER START LOOKING AFTER HER OWN CHILDREN?

# 313 A:

YES.

# 314 Q:

AND WHEN WAS IT THAT YOU LEFT TO GO TO THIS OTHER STATE?

# 315 A:

I LEFT WEDNESDAY, WEDNESDAY MORNING.

# 316 Q:

AND THE AIRLINE THAT YOU TAKE TO EL SALVADOR IS -- WHICH AIRLINE IS IT?

# 317 A:

TACA.

# 318 Q:

NOW, YOU MENTIONED THAT JOSEFINA RODRIGUEZ -- IS THAT YOUR NIECE?

# 319 A:

YES.

# 320 Q:

AND WITH REGARD TO YOUR FLYING BACK HERE TO LOS ANGELES LAST NIGHT, DID YOU CALL MY OFFICE AND TELL THEM WHERE YOU WERE?

# 321 A:

YES.

# 322 Q:

AND WAS A TICKET THEN SENT TO YOU?

# 323 A:

YES.

# 324 Q:

AND IS YOUR NIECE SUPPOSED TO REIMBURSE US FOR THAT TICKET?

# 325 A:

YES.

# 326 Q:

NOW, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU SAW IT, BUT DID YOU SEE THE VIDEO OF KRISTIN JEANNETTE MEYERS FROM COURT T.V.?

# 327 A:

YES.

# 328 Q:

DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING THAT IN COURT?

# 329 A:

YES.

# 330 Q:

WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO HER AND SHE WALKED PAST YOU AND YOU WERE SITTING THERE WITH YOUR LAWYER, WAS SHE HARASSING YOU IN ANY WAY?

# 331 A:

NO.

# 332 Q:

DID SHE HAVE A CAMERA IN HER HAND?

# 333 A:

NO, I DIDN'T SEE THAT.

# 334 Q:

YOU REACHED OUT AND TOLD HER THAT YOU ENJOYED HER ON COURT T.V.?

# 335 A:

YES, THAT SHE LOOKS PRETTY.

# 336 Q:

DID YOU CONSIDER HER TO BE LIKE THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOWED YOU AT YOUR HOME AND AT WORK?

# 337 A:

NO.

# 338 Q:

YOUR LAWYER IS SITTING RIGHT BY YOU WHEN YOU TALKED TO HER?

# 339 A:

YES.

# 340 Q:

AND ALSO AT LUNCHTIME TODAY WHO WAS SITTING AT THE TABLE WITH YOU AT THE TIME WE HAD OUR BRIEF CONVERSATION, YOU AND I?

# 341 A:

PATTY MC KENNA AND IRMA.

# 342 Q:

DID YOU SEE THIS MAN HERE, (INDICATING)?

# 343 A:

YEAH.

# 344 MR. COCHRAN:

FOR THE RECORD, MR. HOWARD HARRIS.

# 345 ROSA LOPEZ:

YEAH.

# 346 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU SEE A MAN WALKING WITH ME? DID YOU SEE A MAN WALKING WITH ME WHO APPEARED TO BE -- STRIKE THAT.

# 347 MR. DARDEN:

I WAS GOING TO OBJECT.

# 348 MR. COCHRAN:

YOU DON'T HAVE TO OBJECT.

# 349 Q:

DID YOU SEE A MAN WALK IN WITH ME WHEN HE CAME IN?

# 350 MR. DARDEN:

LEADING.

# 351 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 352 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU ANSWER THAT?

# 353 A:

YES.

# 354 Q:

DID THAT PERSON STAND THERE AND KEEP PEOPLE AWAY FROM ME?

# 355 MR. DARDEN:

THAT IS LEADING.

# 356 MR. COCHRAN:

THAT PROBABLY IS.

# 357 Q:

WHAT DID YOU SEE THAT PERSON DO WHILE I WAS STANDING THERE TALKING TO YOU?

# 358 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER. I DIDN'T REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT HE WAS DOING.

# 359 Q:

AND WHEN I LEFT FROM WHERE YOU WERE --

# 360 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION. THAT ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR, THAT HE LEFT.

# 361 THE COURT:

WELL, HE IS HERE SO HE OBVIOUSLY LEFT.

# 362 MR. COCHRAN:

I AM STILL DOWNSTAIRS, MR. DARDEN. MAY I PROCEED, YOUR HONOR?

# 363 THE COURT:

PLEASE.

# 364 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: WHEN I LEFT DID YOU SEE THAT MAN LEAVE WITH ME?

# 365 A:

I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION BECAUSE I WAS TALKING TO IRMA.

# 366 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN YOU WERE SITTING WITH YOUR LAWYER THIS MORNING IN COURT, MR. JONES, DID YOU FEEL SAFE?

# 367 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.

# 368 ROSA LOPEZ:

YES.

# 369 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 370 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: MR. DARDEN ASKED YOU SOME QUESTIONS THIS MORNING ABOUT WHEN YOU TALKED TO YOUR SISTER. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

# 371 A:

YES.

# 372 Q:

AND HAS YOUR SISTER CALLED TO ONE OF YOUR RELATIVES HERE IN LOS ANGELES AT ANY TIME IN THE RECENT PAST?

# 373 A:

NO. SHE CALLED AT THE PLACE WHERE I AM NOW.

# 374 Q:

ALL RIGHT. HAS SHE TALKED TO YOUR NIECE OR ANY OF YOUR OTHER RELATIVES RECENTLY?

# 375 A:

SHE TALKED TO MY NIECE.

# 376 Q:

ALL RIGHT. YOU HAVEN'T TALKED TO HER PERSONALLY?

# 377 A:

NO.

# 378 Q:

AND WHEN YOU LEAVE ON THIS FLIGHT TOMORROW NIGHT FOR EL SALVADOR, WHAT TIME WILL YOU -- WHAT TIME WILL YOU ARRIVE IN EL SALVADOR?

# 379 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, YOUR HONOR, ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE AND IT IS LEADING.

# 380 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 381 MR. DARDEN:

THERE HAS BEEN NO INDICATION THAT SHE IS LEAVING FOR EL SALVADOR.

# 382 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 383 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: TOMORROW NIGHT?

# 384 A:

I WILL ARRIVE AT 8:00 IN THE MORNING. THE PLANE COMES IN AT 7:45 IN THE MORNING.

# 385 Q:

WHAT TIME DO YOU LEAVE HERE, LOS ANGELES?

# 386 A:

THE PLANE LEAVES AT 11:00.

# 387 Q:

AND THAT IS ON TACA; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 388 A:

YES, SIR.

# 389 Q:

LASTLY, WITH REGARD TO THE SALINGERS, WHEN MRS. SALINGER TOLD YOU THAT IF YOU STAYED LONGER THAN TWO WEEKS AWAY SHE WOULD HIRE ANOTHER HOUSEKEEPER, DID THAT MEAN TO YOU THAT PERHAPS SHE NO LONGER WANTED YOU?

# 390 A:

YES.

# 391 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, CALLS FOR SPECULATION. MOTION TO STRIKE.

# 392 THE COURT:

IT IS ALSO LEADING. SUSTAINED. BUT THE ANSWER IS ALREADY THERE.

# 393 MR. DARDEN:

CAN WE STRIKE THAT ANSWER, YOUR HONOR?

# 394 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. ASK THE QUESTION AGAIN.

# 395 MR. COCHRAN:

CERTAINLY, YOUR HONOR.

# 396 Q:

WHAT DID YOU TAKE MISS SALINGER TO MEAN WHEN SHE TOLD YOU IF YOU STAYED LONGER THAN TWO WEEKS -- IF YOU STAYED LONGER THAN ONE WEEK, SHE WOULD LOOK FOR ANOTHER HOUSEKEEPER?

# 397 A:

THAT SHE DIDN'T WANT ME ANY MORE.

# 398 Q:

THAT IS WHEN YOU THEN LEFT?

# 399 A:

YES, SIR.

# 400 Q:

AND YOU HAVE NO OTHER JOB, DO YOU?

# 401 A:

NO.

# 402 Q:

YOU MENTIONED TO MR. DARDEN THAT YOU CAME BACK FROM THIS OTHER STATE BECAUSE YOU FELT A DUTY OR OBLIGATION TO COME AND TESTIFY; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 403 A:

YES. I DIDN'T WANT THE JUDGE TO LOOK BAD BEFORE EVERYBODY SAYING THAT I WAS A LIAR AND THAT I DIDN'T COME WHEN I WAS TOLD TO.

KEY QUOTE

# 404 Q:

YOU HAD BEEN TOLD YOU WERE DUE HERE FRIDAY MORNING?

# 405 A:

YES.

# 406 Q:

IS THAT WHY YOU CAME BACK?

# 407 A:

YES.

# 408 Q:

AND DO YOU WANT TO TESTIFY TRUTHFULLY HERE TODAY?

# 409 A:

YES, SIR.

# 410 Q:

AND MR. SIMPSON IS NOT A FRIEND OF YOURS, IS HE?

# 411 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION, THAT IS --

# 412 ROSA LOPEZ:

NO.

# 413 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: HE LIVED NEXT DOOR TO WHERE YOU LIVED?

# 414 A:

YES.

# 415 MR. COCHRAN:

THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Rosa Lopez

BECAUSE EVERYBODY ALREADY KNOWS ME. WHEREVER I GO PEOPLE LOOK AT ME AND POINT AT ME AND SAY, 'SEE, THAT'S THE WOMAN THAT IS IN MR. SIMPSON'S CASE' AND I'M AFRAID.

Her core explanation for wanting to flee to El Salvador — genuine fear from public recognition, not evasion of testimony

Rosa Lopez

THAT THEY COULD EVEN KILL HER OR STEAL HER CHILDREN FROM HER.

Her daughter's reported fear — extreme language that Cochran used to establish state-of-mind justification for the declaration and her departure

Rosa Lopez

I DIDN'T WANT THE JUDGE TO LOOK BAD BEFORE EVERYBODY SAYING THAT I WAS A LIAR AND THAT I DIDN'T COME WHEN I WAS TOLD TO.

Explains why she flew back overnight — framed as respect for the court and personal honor, directly rehabilitating Darden's suggestion she was fleeing

Lance A. Ito

IT IS AN AWFUL LONG HEARING TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A HEARING.

Judge's exasperated aside about the procedural logjam over the travel agent issue; reveals Ito's frustration with both sides

Lance A. Ito

SUSTAINED. I FORGOT HE WAS ON THE OTHER SIDE FOR A MOMENT THERE.

Ito accidentally sustained a prosecution objection that favored the defense, then caught himself — a rare moment of judicial candor about momentary confusion

Evidence (4)

Informal

Rosa Lopez's signed declaration dated February 17, 1995, including paragraph 7: 'I have a fear for my personal safety, as well as the safety of my family if I remain in this country'

Read aloud by Cochran to witness (who lacked her glasses); used to rehabilitate her stated reasons for leaving

Informal

Video of Kristin Jeannette Meyers from Court TV approaching Lopez in the courthouse

Referenced verbally; Lopez clarified the encounter was friendly (she told Meyers she 'looks pretty'), distinguishing it from genuine press harassment

Informal

Airline reservation on TACA departing Los Angeles at 11:00 PM for El Salvador

Discussed to establish bona fide travel plans and corroborate declaration

Informal

Pan Americana Travel Service / travel agent Zulema Iida

Cochran established Lopez's longstanding use of the same travel agency (December 1994 and current), countering Darden's implication the departure was arranged hastily or suspiciously

Notable Exchanges (5)

Lance A. Ito•Johnnie Cochran•Christopher Darden

Extended standoff over whether to call travel agent Zulema Iida as a witness. Ito cut through it by pointing out nobody had asked about paragraph 7 of the declaration — the actual safety fear — and that the travel agent angle was 'not real interesting' to him.

tense/strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Marcia Clark•Christopher Darden

Clark interjected an objection mid-examination, prompting Cochran to say 'Who is trying the case?' and then 'I can handle both of them, that's all right.' Darden replied 'I'm sure you can, Mr. Cochran.'

light/combative

Christopher Darden•Lance A. Ito

Darden objected that 'when I left' assumed a fact not in evidence. Ito replied 'Well, he is here so he obviously left.' Cochran added 'I am still downstairs, Mr. Darden.'

light

Lance A. Ito•Johnnie Cochran

Ito accidentally sustained Darden's leading objection on the income question, then immediately corrected: 'I forgot he was on the other side for a moment there.' He then overruled the same objection.

revealing

Rosa Lopez•Channel 34 reporter

Lopez described a 25–30 minute conversation in which the Channel 34 reporter told her the defense lawyers were 'using' her and offered her a station lawyer who spoke Spanish. Lopez refused and called her own lawyer instead.

revealing/strategic

Light Moments (4)

Lance A. Ito

Ito accidentally sustained Darden's objection against Cochran, then caught himself: 'I forgot he was on the other side for a moment there.'

Johnnie Cochran

When Cochran asked about 'the National Enquirer' and Ito corrected him that Tony Frost was with 'the Star,' Cochran shrugged: 'They are all the same.'

Johnnie Cochran / Rosa Lopez

Cochran asked Lopez what she calls him. She answered: 'Johnnie.' He confirmed: 'Okay. Yes.'

Johnnie Cochran

'I am still downstairs, Mr. Darden' — Cochran's response to Darden's objection that 'when I left' assumed a fact not in evidence.

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Rosa Lopez

Prior inconsistent statement / bias

Darden had previously questioned Lopez about statements to a Channel 34 reporter suggesting she felt abandoned by defense lawyers and that her lawyer had suggested she could leave. Cochran's redirect directly countered this: Lopez said she never told the reporter her lawyer 'suggested' she leave, and that she called her own lawyer independently without prompting from the reporter.

⚔ Rosa Lopez

Motive to flee / witness evasion

Darden had implied Lopez left for another state to avoid testifying. Cochran rehabilitated by showing she returned overnight on a 1:30 AM flight, slept only 2.5 hours, and came back specifically out of respect for her court obligation — quoting her: 'I didn't want the judge to look bad.'

⚔ Rosa Lopez

Financial motive

Cochran preemptively addressed potential allegations of paid testimony by asking directly whether anyone had offered her money. Lopez denied any payment offer and said she did not want money.

Witness Demeanor

(The witness answers in English at several points, noted as '(IN ENGLISH)')

Witness cannot read her own declaration without glasses — Cochran must read it aloud to her

Witness frequently gives brief, direct answers ('Yes, sir') with little elaboration unless prompted

Witness volunteers information mid-question ('Tomorrow') when asked about returning to El Salvador

Witness expresses that she called her lawyer independently, not at the reporter's suggestion

Objections

19 objections (5 sustained, 12 overruled)

Proceeding 5090 • 415 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103