Direct examination of Ron Shipp (afternoon, part 2)

📄 Direct examination of Ron Shipp (afternoon, part 2) — Wednesday, February 1, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\FEB\1\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-RON-SHIP.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 10 of 167

◀ Voir dire of Ron Shipp Cross-examination of Ron Shipp (part 1) ▶

Witness: Ron Shipp
Examiner: Christopher Darden
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, February 1, 1995 • Lines: 171

Ron Shipp resumed direct examination and testified that OJ Simpson asked him how long DNA testing takes and then said he had 'dreams of killing' Nicole Brown Simpson. Shipp explained that he did not tell LAPD detectives because he was in shock and because of his 26-year friendship with Simpson. He testified that he later disclosed the account anonymously to author Sheila Weller for the book 'Raging Heart' before telling investigators and prosecutors.

# 1 THE COURT:

THANK YOU. MR. DARDEN.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. DARDEN:

# 2 Q:

WHEN WE LEFT OFF, MR. SHIPP, I BELIEVE YOU TOLD US THAT THE DEFENDANT TOLD YOU THAT THE POLICE TOLD HIM THAT THEY FOUND A BLOODY GLOVE; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 3 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 4 Q:

AND THEY ALSO SAID THEY FOUND A WATCH CAP OR SOMETHING SOMEWHERE?

# 5 A:

THEY SAID THEY FOUND A WATCH CAP ON THE PROPERTY.

# 6 Q:

DID YOU AND THE DEFENDANT DISCUSS THINGS UNRELATED TO NICOLE BROWN'S DEATH?

# 7 A:

UNRELATED TO HER DEATH?

# 8 Q:

UNRELATED.

# 9 A:

NOT AT THIS TIME.

# 10 Q:

DID YOU KNOW THAT THE DEFENDANT HAD GONE DOWN TO THE LAPD HEADQUARTERS THAT DAY?

# 11 A:

YES, I DID.

# 12 Q:

AND DID YOU AND THE DEFENDANT DISCUSS WHAT OCCURRED THERE?

# 13 A:

NOT AT ALL.

# 14 Q:

WELL, DID HE ASK YOU ANY QUESTIONS, ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE INVESTIGATION?

# 15 A:

AFTER HE TOLD ME ABOUT WHAT THEY FOUND AT HIS HOUSE, HE ASKED ME HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE DNA TO COME BACK.

# 16 Q:

AND AT THAT TIME, DID YOU KNOW THE CORRECT ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION?

# 17 A:

I DID NOT KNOW THE CORRECT ANSWER, BUT WHAT I DID SAY, I JUST OFF THE CUFF SAY TWO MONTHS.

# 18 Q:

AND WHAT DID HE SAY IN RESPONSE TO YOUR INDICATION THAT IT TAKES DNA TWO MONTHS TO COME BACK?

# 19 A:

HE KIND OF JOKINGLY JUST SAID, YOU KNOW, "TO BE HONEST, SHIPP --" THAT'S WHAT HE CALLED ME, SHIPP. HE SAID, "I'VE HAD SOME DREAMS OF KILLING HER."

KEY QUOTE

# 20 Q:

DID HE SAY HOW MANY DREAMS HE HAD HAD OF KILLING HER?

# 21 A:

NO, HE DID NOT.

# 22 Q:

DID HE SAY IT WAS MORE THAN ONE?

# 23 A:

HE JUST SAID DREAMS, PLURAL.

# 24 Q:

YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY THE LAPD BACK IN JUNE OR JULY OF 1994; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 25 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 26 Q:

AND DID YOU REVEAL TO THE LAPD AT THAT TIME THAT THE DEFENDANT HAD TOLD YOU THAT HE HAD HAD DREAMS ABOUT KILLING NICOLE BROWN?

# 27 A:

NO, I DID NOT. NO, I DID NOT.

# 28 Q:

DID THE DETECTIVES ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR CONVERSATION WITH THE DEFENDANT, IF ANY, ON JUNE 13?

# 29 A:

THEY ASKED IF I HAD ONE, BUT AT THE TIME, I DID NOT. NO, I DID NOT TELL THEM.

# 30 Q:

YOU DID NOT TELL THEM?

# 31 A:

NO, I DID NOT.

# 32 Q:

WELL, YOU'RE AN EX-POLICE OFFICER, RIGHT?

# 33 A:

YES, I AM.

# 34 Q:

YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY WERE CONDUCTING A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION, CORRECT?

# 35 A:

YES, I DID.

# 36 Q:

WELL, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU HEARD THE DEFENDANT SAY THAT HE HAD HAD DREAMS ABOUT KILLING NICOLE BROWN?

# 37 MR. DOUGLAS:

IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR.

# 38 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 39 MR. DARDEN:

IT GOES TO EXPLAIN HIS SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT, YOUR HONOR.

# 40 THE COURT:

YOU CAN ASK HIM WHAT HE DID AFTER HE HEARD IT.

# 41 MR. DARDEN:

OKAY.

# 42 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, AFTER THE DEFENDANT TOLD YOU THAT HE HAD HAD DREAMS OF KILLING NICOLE BROWN, DID YOU TELL ANYONE ELSE IMMEDIATELY?

# 43 A:

THAT NIGHT, I WENT BACK AND TOLD MY WIFE.

# 44 Q:

WERE THERE OTHER PERSONS PRESENT IN THE HOUSE AT THAT TIME, THAT IS THE TIME IN WHICH YOU HEARD THE DEFENDANT SAY THAT HE HAD HAD DREAMS?

# 45 A:

OTHER PEOPLE PRESENT?

# 46 Q:

YEAH.

# 47 A:

YES, THERE WERE.

# 48 Q:

THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE HOUSE DOWNSTAIRS?

# 49 A:

DOWNSTAIRS, RIGHT, CORRECT.

# 50 Q:

DID YOU GO DOWNSTAIRS AND TELL THOSE PEOPLE?

# 51 A:

NO. NO, I DID NOT.

# 52 Q:

AND YOU DIDN'T TELL THE POLICE DETECTIVES WHEN THEY QUESTIONED YOU?

# 53 A:

NO, I DID NOT.

# 54 Q:

WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL THE POLICE DETECTIVES ABOUT THE DEFENDANT'S STATEMENT THAT HE HAD HAD DREAMS OF KILLING NICOLE BROWN?

# 55 A:

AT THE TIME, WHEN DETECTIVE VANNATTER APPROACHED ME WITH THE SITUATION -- YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, I WAS IN A STATE OF SHOCK FOR -- UP UNTIL THAT TIME, AND I WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS AT THE TIME. I JUST -- I WAS JUST STILL THINKING IT WAS A DREAM LIKE MOST OF AMERICA.

# 56 Q:

WELL, DID YOU THINK THAT YOU COULD SOMEHOW HURT THE DEFENDANT OR HARM HIM BY DISCLOSING THAT INFORMATION?

# 57 A:

PARDON ME?

# 58 Q:

DID YOU THINK --

# 59 A:

YES, YES, YES, I DID. I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY -- IT WAS HARMFUL.

# 60 Q:

WELL, WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST TELL THE DETECTIVES?

# 61 A:

I DIDN'T WANT TO TELL THE DETECTIVES AT THE TIME. I DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO TALK TO THEM. I WANTED NOTHING TO DO -- I JUST WANTED EVERYTHING TO GO AWAY. I WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. I HAD BEEN A CIVILIAN I THINK AT THE TIME ALMOST FIVE YEARS, LIVING A NORMAL LIFE.

# 62 Q:

DID THE FACT OF YOUR FRIENDSHIP WITH THE DEFENDANT ENTER INTO YOUR DECISION NOT TO TELL THE DETECTIVES?

# 63 A:

YES, IT DID.

# 64 Q:

HOW?

# 65 A:

LIKE I SAID EARLIER, I MEAN I LOVED THIS MAN FOR 26 YEARS, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU KNOW, MY THOUGHT PROCESS -- I JUST -- LIKE I SAID, I WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH IT AT ALL.

KEY QUOTE

# 66 Q:

ARE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH SOMEONE NAMED SHEILA WELLER?

# 67 A:

YES, I AM.

# 68 Q:

AND WHO IS SHEILA WELLER?

# 69 A:

SHEILA WELLER IS AN AUTHOR OF THE BOOK RAGING HEART.

# 70 Q:

SHE IS THE AUTHOR OF A BOOK CALLED RAGING HEART?

# 71 A:

RIGHT.

# 72 Q:

HAVE YOU READ THAT BOOK?

# 73 A:

MOST OF IT. NOT ALL OF IT.

# 74 Q:

WERE YOU INTERVIEWED BY SHEILA WELLER?

# 75 A:

YES, I WAS.

# 76 Q:

AND WERE YOU INTERVIEWED BY HER FOR THAT BOOK?

# 77 A:

YES, I WAS.

# 78 Q:

AND WHEN WERE YOU FIRST INTERVIEWED BY SHEILA WELLER?

# 79 A:

I THINK IT WAS IN JULY.

# 80 Q:

JULY OF 1994?

# 81 A:

CORRECT.

# 82 Q:

HOW MANY TIMES WERE YOU INTERVIEWED BY HER?

# 83 A:

MAYBE SIX, SEVEN TIMES. MAYBE A LITTLE MORE. I CAN'T REMEMBER.

# 84 Q:

DID YOU TELL HER ABOUT THE DEFENDANT'S STATEMENT, THE STATEMENT THAT HE HAD HAD DREAMS OF KILLING NICOLE BROWN?

# 85 A:

NOT THE FIRST TIME WHEN I TALKED TO HER.

# 86 Q:

DID SHE ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH THE DEFENDANT ON JUNE 13?

# 87 A:

SHE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT THEN.

# 88 Q:

NOW, YOU SAY THAT YOU HAVE READ THIS BOOK RAGING HEART OR RATHER MOST OF IT?

# 89 A:

YES, I HAVE.

# 90 Q:

AND THERE IS A SCENARIO IN THE BOOK THAT DESCRIBES SOMEONE WHO IN THE BOOK IS CALLED OR NAMED LEO; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 91 A:

YES, IT IS.

# 92 Q:

HAVE YOU READ THAT PASSAGE?

# 93 A:

YES, I HAVE.

# 94 Q:

ARE YOU THE LEO?

# 95 A:

YES, I AM.

# 96 Q:

ARE YOU LEO, THE LEO THAT'S DESCRIBED IN THAT BOOK?

# 97 A:

YEP. THAT'S ME.

# 98 Q:

IS THE BEDROOM CONVERSATION YOU JUST DESCRIBED TO US TODAY DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK?

# 99 A:

YES, IT IS.

# 100 Q:

SO YOU TOLD WELLER ABOUT THE BEDROOM CONVERSATION?

# 101 A:

YEAH. LATER ON I DID.

# 102 Q:

WHEN, IF YOU RECALL?

# 103 A:

MAYBE -- I THINK IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN WITHIN A MONTH AFTERWARDS.

# 104 Q:

A MONTH AFTER THE KILLING?

# 105 A:

AFTER THE FIRST TIME THAT I HAD TALKED TO HER.

# 106 Q:

SO WHAT TIME WOULD THAT BE?

# 107 A:

I GUESS AUGUST.

# 108 Q:

OKAY. WELL, HAD YOU TOLD THE LAPD ABOUT THE DEFENDANT'S STATEMENT REGARDING THESE DREAMS?

# 109 A:

NO.

# 110 Q:

SO YOU TOLD WELLER BEFORE YOU TOLD THE LAPD?

# 111 A:

YES, I DID.

# 112 Q:

YOU TOLD WELLER BEFORE YOU TOLD MARCIA CLARK OR MYSELF?

# 113 A:

I SURE DID.

# 114 Q:

WHY DID YOU TELL WELLER ABOUT THE DREAMS BEFORE YOU TOLD US?

# 115 A:

EVER SINCE I HEARD THAT CONVERSATION, IT WAS JUST EATING ME UP AND I KNEW I DIDN'T WANT TO TELL YOU GUYS BECAUSE I DIDN'T NEVER WANT TO BE IN THIS POSITION WHERE I'M TALKING ABOUT THIS, AND I JUST HAD TO GET IT OUT AND THAT'S WHY I TOLD HER. ORIGINALLY, THIS WHOLE THING -- I WAS GOING TO BE ANONYMOUS.

KEY QUOTE

# 116 Q:

YOU TOLD SHEILA WELLER ABOUT THE CONVERSATION AND ASKED THAT YOU REMAIN ANONYMOUS?

# 117 A:

YES, I DID.

# 118 Q:

SO YOUR NAME ISN'T LEO. YOUR REAL NAME ISN'T LEO?

# 119 A:

NO, IT IS NOT.

# 120 Q:

AND PEOPLE REFER TO YOU AS RON; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 121 A:

YES, THEY DO.

# 122 Q:

DID WELLER AGREE TO KEEP YOU ANONYMOUS IN THE BOOK?

# 123 A:

YES, SHE DID.

# 124 Q:

DID SHE OFFER YOU MONEY IN EXCHANGE FOR YOUR TELLING HER THIS INFORMATION?

# 125 A:

NOT AT ALL. THE ONLY REASON I AGREED TO DO THE BOOK, I GOT A CALL FROM ROLF BAUER, NICOLE'S BROTHER. I MEAN HE'S HER COUSIN. AND ORIGINALLY, HE -- I DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT AT THAT TIME. HE ASKED ME TO INTERVIEW WITH HER.

# 126 MR. DOUGLAS:

YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION, IF HE IS GOING TO GO INTO WHATEVER MR. BAUER MAY HAVE SAID.

# 127 THE COURT:

CORRECT. NEXT QUESTION.

# 128 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: SO YOU WERE NEVER OFFERED MONEY IN EXCHANGE FOR --

# 129 A:

NEVER. MONEY WAS GOING TO SIDNEY AND JUSTIN. THAT'S ALL I WAS TOLD, THAT THEY WOULD DONATE A NICE SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT TO SIDNEY AND JUSTIN.

KEY QUOTE

# 130 Q:

OKAY. SO IF I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY THEN, MONEY FROM THE SALE OF THE BOOK WAS GOING TO GO TO THE DEFENDANT'S CHILDREN?

# 131 A:

RIGHT. CORRECT.

# 132 Q:

NONE WAS TO GO TO YOU?

# 133 A:

NOT A DIME.

# 134 Q:

OR ANY OTHER PERSON?

# 135 A:

NO ONE IN MY -- NO ONE. I MEAN THERE WAS NO MENTION OF MONEY FOR ME AT ALL.

# 136 Q:

HAVE YOU EVER ACCEPTED ANY MONEY IN EXCHANGE FOR YOUR TESTIMONY OR IN EXCHANGE FOR YOUR ACCOUNTING OF THE INFORMATION YOU'VE GIVEN TO US?

# 137 A:

NEVER.

# 138 Q:

NEVER ACCEPTED ANY --

# 139 A:

NONE.

# 140 Q:

HAVE YOU GIVEN ANY TELEVISION INTERVIEWS?

# 141 A:

NONE.

# 142 Q:

HAVE YOU SPOKEN TO THE TABLOIDS AT ALL?

# 143 A:

NO, I HAVE NOT.

# 144 Q:

NOW, AT SOME POINT, YOU DID TELL DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND DETECTIVE LANGE AND MYSELF ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 145 A:

YEAH, JUST RECENTLY.

# 146 Q:

AND THAT WAS JANUARY 21; WASN'T IT? IS THAT CORRECT?

# 147 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 148 Q:

DID ANYONE FORCE YOU TO DISCLOSE THIS INFORMATION TO SHEILA WELLER?

# 149 A:

NO. NOT AT ALL.

# 150 Q:

OR TO US?

# 151 A:

NO.

# 152 Q:

YOU KNEW THE BOOK WOULD BE PUBLISHED AT SOME POINT; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 153 A:

YEAH, I DID.

# 154 Q:

AND WERE YOU TOLD THAT THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH THE DEFENDANT WOULD BE INCLUDED IN THE BOOK?

# 155 A:

YES, I WAS.

# 156 Q:

WERE YOU CONCERNED AT ALL THAT OTHERS MIGHT READ THAT SCENARIO AND TRY TO IDENTIFY THE PERSON WHO WAS DESCRIBED AS LEO IN THE BOOK?

# 157 A:

YES, I WAS.

# 158 Q:

WERE YOU CONCERNED THAT SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT READ THE SCENARIO IN THE BOOK AND REALIZE WHO LEO REALLY WAS?

# 159 A:

YES.

# 160 Q:

WHO?

# 161 A:

YOU GUYS.

# 162 Q:

WERE YOU CONCERNED AT ALL THAT THE DEFENDANT MIGHT READ THE BOOK?

# 163 A:

I WOULD THINK THAT HE WOULD BE TOLD ABOUT IT IF HE DID NOT READ IT.

# 164 MR. DARDEN:

MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

# 165 THE COURT:

CERTAINLY.

# 166 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 167 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: MR. SHIPP, DO YOU STILL CONSIDER YOURSELF A FRIEND OF THIS DEFENDANT?

# 168 MR. DOUGLAS:

IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR.

# 169 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.

# 170 RON SHIPP:

I DO. I DON'T KNOW HOW HE FEELS.

# 171 MR. DARDEN:

THANK YOU, SIR. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR.

Temperature

emotional

Key Quotes (4)

Ron Shipp

HE KIND OF JOKINGLY JUST SAID, YOU KNOW, "TO BE HONEST, SHIPP --" THAT'S WHAT HE CALLED ME, SHIPP. HE SAID, "I'VE HAD SOME DREAMS OF KILLING HER."

Records Shipp's testimony that Simpson said he had 'dreams of killing her'; the packet does not independently verify the reported statement or establish lethal intent.

Ron Shipp

LIKE I SAID EARLIER, I MEAN I LOVED THIS MAN FOR 26 YEARS, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU KNOW, MY THOUGHT PROCESS -- I JUST -- LIKE I SAID, I WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH IT AT ALL.

Explains his delayed disclosure to police and establishes the emotional cost of his testimony — loyalty versus conscience.

Ron Shipp

EVER SINCE I HEARD THAT CONVERSATION, IT WAS JUST EATING ME UP AND I KNEW I DIDN'T WANT TO TELL YOU GUYS BECAUSE I DIDN'T NEVER WANT TO BE IN THIS POSITION WHERE I'M TALKING ABOUT THIS, AND I JUST HAD TO GET IT OUT.

Humanizes his decision to speak to Weller anonymously, framing it as psychological relief rather than self-promotion.

Ron Shipp

MONEY WAS GOING TO SIDNEY AND JUSTIN. THAT'S ALL I WAS TOLD, THAT THEY WOULD DONATE A NICE SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT TO SIDNEY AND JUSTIN.

Addresses a possible financial motive: Shipp testified that he was told a substantial amount would be donated to Sidney and Justin and that no money was to go to him.

Evidence (3)

Informal

Book 'Raging Heart' by Sheila Weller, containing an anonymous account of the bedroom conversation between Shipp ('Leo') and Simpson

discussed extensively; Shipp confirmed he is 'Leo' and that the bedroom conversation he described in court is described in the book

Informal

Bloody glove found at Simpson's property

briefly referenced as something Simpson told Shipp the police had found

Informal

Watch cap found on Simpson's property

briefly referenced as something Simpson told Shipp the police had found

Notable Exchanges (2)

Christopher Darden•Ron Shipp

Darden pressed Shipp on why, as a former police officer who knew a homicide investigation was underway, he withheld Simpson's 'dreams of killing' statement from LAPD detectives — and instead told a book author first.

revealing

Ron Shipp•Christopher Darden

Shipp confirmed he told Sheila Weller the bedroom conversation before telling LAPD, Marcia Clark, or Darden — specifically to remain anonymous and because 'it was eating me up.'

candid

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Ron Shipp

prior omission / delayed disclosure

During resumed direct examination, Christopher Darden elicited that Shipp, a former LAPD officer, withheld Simpson's reported 'dreams of killing' statement from detectives, told a book author before prosecutors, and did not disclose it to investigators and prosecutors until January 21, 1995.

Witness Demeanor

Witness repeated phrases and paused frequently when explaining his silence ('I wanted nothing to do with it at all')

Witness gave short, direct answers when cornered on the timeline of disclosures

Witness responded emphatically to payment questions, denying that he was offered or accepted money and stating that he was told a substantial amount would be donated to Sidney and Justin.

Objections

3 objections (2 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 4540 • 171 lines • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103