Cross-examination of Ron Shipp (part 1)

📄 Cross-examination of Ron Shipp (part 1) — Wednesday, February 1, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\FEB\1\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-RON-SHIPP.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 10 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Ron Shipp (afternoon, part 2) Cross-examination of Ron Shipp (part 2) ▶

Witness: Ron Shipp
Examiner: Carl Douglas
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, February 1, 1995 • Utterances: 407

Carl Douglas cross-examines Ron Shipp, focusing on why Shipp withheld the alleged dream conversation from the DA, police, a defense investigator, and Douglas himself during a 45-minute interview. Shipp admits he lied by omission across at least three separate interviews before finally disclosing the dream to Darden. Douglas also attacks Shipp's motives, suggesting the testimony was fabricated to boost his acting career — a line Shipp deflects sharply, turning it back on Douglas.

# 1 THE COURT:

MR. DOUGLAS.

# 2 MR. DOUGLAS:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DOUGLAS:

# 3 Q:

MR. SHIPP, WHAT DID YOU REVIEW IN PREPARATION FOR YOUR TESTIMONY TODAY, SIR?

# 4 A:

THE ONLY THING I EVER LOOKED OVER WAS THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE PROFILES.

# 5 Q:

NOW, IT IS TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN A FEW STATEMENTS ABOUT INFORMATION THAT YOU HAVE CONCERNING THIS CASE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

# 6 A:

YES, I HAVE.

# 7 Q:

YOU WERE INTERVIEWED IN THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE IN JULY, TRUE?

# 8 A:

IF THAT'S WHEN IT WAS, OKAY.

# 9 Q:

AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN JULY 28TH, 1994. SOUND ABOUT RIGHT?

# 10 A:

I GUESS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE DATE WAS.

# 11 Q:

YOU DO REMEMBER GIVING THAT INTERVIEW IN JULY?

# 12 A:

YES, I DO.

# 13 Q:

WAS THAT INTERVIEW BEFORE OR AFTER YOUR FIRST INTERVIEW WITH MISS WELLER?

# 14 A:

THAT INTERVIEW, I THINK IT MAY HAVE BEEN AFTERWARDS.

# 15 Q:

YOU THINK THAT THE FIRST INTERVIEW WITH THE POLICE DEPARTMENT WAS AFTER THE INTERVIEW WITH THE AUTHOR, CORRECT?

# 16 A:

YOU SAY THE POLICE DEPARTMENT OR WITH MARCIA CLARK AND --

# 17 Q:

WELL --

# 18 A:

WHICH ONE?

# 19 Q:

POLICE OFFICERS WERE PRESENT IN MARCIA CLARK'S OFFICE; WERE THEY NOT?

# 20 A:

YES, THEY WERE.

# 21 Q:

OFFICER VANNATTER WAS PRESENT, TRUE?

# 22 A:

TRUE. BUT I TALKED TO PHIL BEFORE I EVEN TALKED TO MARCIA AND BILL HODGMAN.

# 23 Q:

YOU TALKED TO PHIL BEFORE TALKING TO MARCIA. MARCIA IS MARCIA CLARK?

# 24 A:

YES. MARCIA CLARK.

# 25 Q:

AND PHIL IS WHO?

# 26 A:

PHIL VANNATTER, DETECTIVE.

# 27 Q:

YOU AND PHIL GO BACK A WHILE, DON'T YOU?

# 28 A:

YEAH. WE'VE KNOWN EACH OTHER OVER THE YEARS.

# 29 Q:

AND HOW ABOUT YOU AND MARCIA?

# 30 A:

FIRST TIME I'VE EVER MET HER.

# 31 Q:

AND BILL WAS ALSO PRESENT AT THAT INTERVIEW?

# 32 A:

YES. CORRECT.

# 33 Q:

REMEMBER BILL?

# 34 A:

YEAH, I REMEMBER BILL.

# 35 Q:

BILL HODGMAN.

# 36 A:

OKAY.

# 37 Q:

NOW, YOU SPOKE WITH PHIL AND MARCIA AND BILL FOR ABOUT 90 MINUTES, DIDN'T YOU?

# 38 A:

WHATEVER YOU SAY.

# 39 Q:

SOUND ABOUT RIGHT?

# 40 A:

OKAY.

# 41 Q:

AND THEY ASKED YOU EVERYTHING THAT YOU KNEW ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH MR. SIMPSON; DID THEY NOT?

# 42 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 43 Q:

AND IN FACT, THERE WAS SOMEBODY TAKING DOWN, TRANSCRIPTION, EVERYTHING THAT WAS SAID, WASN'T THERE?

# 44 A:

CORRECT.

# 45 Q:

WERE YOU PLACED UNDER OATH DURING THAT INTERVIEW WITH PHIL --

# 46 A:

NO, I WASN'T.

# 47 Q:

-- AND BILL AND MARCIA?

# 48 A:

NO, I WAS NOT.

# 49 Q:

NOW, HAVE YOU EVER HAD OCCASION TO READ THE STATEMENT OF THAT INTERVIEW, WHICH IS 60 PAGES LONG?

# 50 A:

YES, I DID. I READ PORTIONS OF IT.

# 51 Q:

YOU READ THAT WHEN I GAVE IT TO YOU, DIDN'T YOU?

# 52 A:

SOMETIME AFTERWARDS. I DIDN'T READ IT IMMEDIATELY.

# 53 Q:

RIGHT. BECAUSE SOMETIME AFTER MEETING WITH PHIL AND BILL AND MARCIA, YOU MET WITH MR. DOUGLAS, DIDN'T YOU?

# 54 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 55 Q:

REMEMBER THAT?

# 56 A:

OH, YES, I DO.

# 57 Q:

AND YOU AND I MET IN YOUR ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, DIDN'T YOU?

# 58 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 59 Q:

REMEMBER THAT?

# 60 A:

YES, I DO.

# 61 Q:

AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT SEPTEMBER THE 9TH OF 1994, CORRECT?

# 62 A:

IF THAT'S WHAT YOU SAY. I DON'T KNOW THE DATES.

# 63 Q:

AND DURING -- WITHDRAWN. WE MET IN YOUR ATTORNEY'S OFFICE FOR ABOUT TWO HOURS, DIDN'T WE?

# 64 A:

NO, WE DID NOT.

# 65 Q:

HOW LONG DID IT LAST?

# 66 A:

40, 45 MINUTES.

# 67 Q:

AND DURING ANY TIME -- WITHDRAWN. YOU KNEW ON THAT OCCASION THAT I WAS REPRESENTING MR. SIMPSON, DIDN'T YOU?

# 68 A:

YES, I DID.

# 69 Q:

I GAVE YOU MY BUSINESS CARD, DIDN'T I?

# 70 A:

YES, YOU DID.

# 71 Q:

IN FACT, AFTER THAT INTERVIEW, YOU CALLED ME BACK LATER, DIDN'T YOU?

# 72 A:

DID I CALL YOU OR DID YOU CALL ME?

# 73 Q:

NO. I CALLED YOUR HOME AFTER YOU HAD CALLED AND LEFT A NUMBER. RECALL THAT?

# 74 A:

IF YOU SAY SO. I CAN'T REMEMBER.

# 75 Q:

DURING ANY PART OF THE 45 MINUTES THAT YOU AND I SPOKE, DID YOU EVER MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION WITH MR. SIMPSON?

# 76 A:

NO, SIR.

# 77 Q:

DIDN'T I ASK YOU DURING THAT CONVERSATION TO TELL ME THE WORSE THINGS THAT YOU KNEW ABOUT O.J. SIMPSON?

# 78 A:

YES, YOU DID.

# 79 Q:

AND WOULDN'T YOU AGREE THAT THIS STATEMENT ABOUT THIS SUPPOSED DREAM IS A PRETTY BAD THING ABOUT MR. SIMPSON?

# 80 A:

YES, IT IS.

# 81 Q:

SO DID YOU LIE WHEN YOU DIDN'T TELL ME ABOUT THAT DREAM?

KEY QUOTE

# 82 A:

I SURE DID.

# 83 Q:

YOU DID. OKAY. YOU'VE LIED A FEW TIMES, HAVEN'T YOU, SIR?

# 84 A:

NEVER IN COURT.

# 85 Q:

BUT YOU'VE LIED A FEW TIMES CONCERNING WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT MR. SIMPSON, TRUE?

# 86 A:

YEAH, I'D SAY.

# 87 Q:

YOU LIED TO MARCIA, DIDN'T YOU?

# 88 A:

WELL IF HOLDING BACK INFORMATION -- THEY NEVER ASKED ME ABOUT -- IF HOLDING BACK INFORMATION IS LYING. I DON'T THINK IT IS LYING. I JUST DIDN'T TELL THEM EVERYTHING.

# 89 Q:

WELL, YOU DIDN'T TELL THE POLICE AND THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY ABOUT AN IMPORTANT CONVERSATION THAT YOU CLAIM OCCURRED, TRUE?

# 90 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 91 Q:

NOW, THE FIRST TIME -- WITHDRAWN. SOMETIME BEFORE TALKING WITH ME, YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH AN INVESTIGATOR WORKING ON MY BEHALF; DID YOU NOT?

# 92 A:

YES, I DID.

# 93 Q:

MR. JOE BROWN. RECALL THAT?

# 94 A:

OKAY. I WAS THINKING OF HOSTETLER. I'M SORRY. MR. JOE BROWN, I DID. YOU'RE RIGHT.

# 95 Q:

AND YOU NEVER TOLD JOE BROWN ABOUT THIS SUPPOSED CONVERSATION WITH YOU AND MR. SIMPSON, DID YOU?

# 96 A:

NO, I DID NOT.

# 97 Q:

SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT. YOU MET FOR 90 MINUTES WITH PHIL AND MARCIA AND BILL AND NEVER MENTIONED THIS CONVERSATION, CORRECT?

# 98 A:

NEVER DID.

# 99 Q:

YOU MET FOR 25 MINUTES WITH JOE BROWN AND NEVER DISCUSSED THIS CONVERSATION, CORRECT?

# 100 A:

DID NOT.

# 101 Q:

YOU MET WITH ME IN YOUR ATTORNEY'S OFFICE FOR 45 MINUTES AND NEVER TALKED ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION, CORRECT?

# 102 A:

CORRECT.

# 103 Q:

AND YOU ARE MR. SIMPSON'S FRIEND AS FAR AS YOU THINK, CORRECT?

# 104 A:

YES.

# 105 Q:

NOW, YOU SAID THAT THE REASON WHY YOU DIDN'T TELL PHIL ABOUT THE CONVERSATION WAS BECAUSE OF WHAT?

# 106 A:

I SAID I DIDN'T TELL PHIL BECAUSE AT THE TIME, I REALLY DID NOT WANT TO BE REALLY INVOLVED IN ALL OF THIS AND I DIDN'T WANT TO BE GOING DOWN AS A PERSON TO NAIL O.J.

# 107 Q:

LET ME ASK YOU THIS. WELL, YOU'RE NOT. SO DON'T WORRY ABOUT THAT. BUT LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

# 108 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION TO THAT EDITORIAL.

# 109 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. COUNSEL, YOU KNOW BETTER.

# 110 MS. CLARK:

MOTION TO STRIKE.

# 111 THE COURT:

THE JURY IS TO DISREGARD COUNSEL'S REMARK.

# 112 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: WHEN YOU TALKED TO MISS WELLER ABOUT THIS SUPPOSED CONVERSATION, DID YOU WANT TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS THEN?

# 113 A:

YES, I DID.

# 114 Q:

DID MISS WELLER INFORM YOU THAT SHE WAS WRITING A BOOK?

# 115 A:

YES, SHE DID.

# 116 Q:

AND DID SHE SUGGEST TO YOU THAT YOUR CONVERSATION WOULD BE IN THE BOOK?

# 117 A:

YES, SHE DID.

# 118 Q:

AND DID YOU INTERPRET BY THE FACT THAT YOUR CONVERSATION WOULD BE IN THE BOOK THAT YOU WOULD NO LONGER BE ANONYMOUS?

# 119 A:

WELL, I FELT THE ONLY ONES THAT WOULD KNOW ABOUT THAT CONVERSATION WOULD BE ME AND O.J.

# 120 Q:

I SEE. WOULDN'T ANYONE ELSE WHO WAS PRESENT AT MR. SIMPSON'S HOME WHEN YOU WENT UPSTAIRS AS YOU SAY ALSO KNOW WHO YOU WERE IN RELATION TO YOUR IDENTITY?

# 121 A:

POSSIBLY.

# 122 Q:

SO I UNDERSTAND YOUR VERSION, THERE WAS A TIME WHEN MR. SIMPSON WENT TO BED, CORRECT?

# 123 A:

CORRECT.

# 124 Q:

AND THIS WAS A MAN THAT HAD JUST LOST THE MOTHER OF HIS CHILDREN, CORRECT?

# 125 A:

CORRECT.

# 126 Q:

AND HE WAS GRIEVING THAT EVENING, WASN'T HE?

# 127 A:

DEFINE GRIEVE.

# 128 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION.

# 129 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: HE WAS IN GRIEF, WASN'T HE?

# 130 MR. DARDEN:

THIS WITNESS ISN'T COMPETENT TO DEFINE WHO IS GRIEVING AND WHO ISN'T, YOUR HONOR.

# 131 THE COURT:

I THINK IT'S A COMMON HUMAN CONDITION THAT HE CAN TESTIFY TO. YOU MAY ANSWER.

# 132 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: YOU MAY ANSWER.

# 133 A:

AT THE TIME WHEN I TALKED TO -- GRIEVE, YOU MEAN CRYING AND STUFF LIKE THAT?

# 134 Q:

WASN'T HE FEELING BAD ABOUT HIS WIFE'S DEATH, MR. SHIPP?

# 135 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

# 136 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. YOU CAN ASK HIM TO DESCRIBE DEMEANOR.

# 137 MR. DOUGLAS:

CAN MR. DARDEN BE THE ONE TO OBJECT, YOUR HONOR.

# 138 MR. DARDEN:

SO MUCH OBJECTIONABLE MATERIAL, YOUR HONOR.

# 139 THE COURT:

COUNSEL, YOU DON'T NEED TO SAY THAT. THE JURY IS TO DISREGARD THAT COMMENT BY COUNSEL AS WELL.

# 140 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: NOW, MR. SIMPSON WASN'T IN A GOOD MOOD?

# 141 A:

NO, HE WAS NOT.

# 142 Q:

HE WAS SURROUNDED BY HIS FAMILY, CORRECT?

# 143 A:

YES, HE WAS.

# 144 Q:

HE WAS SURROUNDED BY HIS CLOSE FRIENDS, CORRECT?

# 145 A:

CORRECT.

# 146 Q:

HIS FAMILY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT HIS EMOTIONAL STATE; WERE THEY NOT?

# 147 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION.

# 148 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 149 RON SHIPP:

YES, THEY WERE.

# 150 MR. DARDEN:

MOTION TO STRIKE, YOUR HONOR.

# 151 RON SHIPP:

I'M SORRY. EXCUSE ME.

# 152 THE COURT:

IS THERE ANY REAL DISPUTE ABOUT THAT? FAMILY AND FRIENDS WERE THERE. ALL RIGHT.

# 153 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION WITHDRAWN, YOUR HONOR.

# 154 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: WHEN MR. SIMPSON RETIRED FOR THE EVENING, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO SEE HIS FAMILY WISH HIM A GOOD EVENING?

# 155 A:

WHEN I WAS LEAVING?

# 156 Q:

NO. YOU SAID THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS RETIRING FOR THE EVENING, CORRECT?

# 157 A:

CORRECT.

# 158 Q:

AND HE ASKED YOU TO WALK UPSTAIRS WITH HIM, CORRECT?

# 159 A:

CORRECT.

# 160 Q:

DO YOU REMEMBER HIS FAMILY WISHING HIM GOOD NIGHT, SLEEP WELL, PLEASANT DREAMS OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE?

# 161 A:

NOT AT THAT TIME, NO.

# 162 Q:

DID YOU REMEMBER THAT HE SNUCK UPSTAIRS WITHOUT ANYONE ELSE IN THE ROOM NOTICING?

# 163 A:

HE SNUCK UPSTAIRS?

# 164 Q:

YES.

# 165 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER THAT.

# 166 Q:

OKAY. SO IT WASN'T A SECRET WHEN HE WENT TO SLEEP THAT EVENING, TRUE?

# 167 A:

NO. EVERYONE KNEW HE WAS -- WENT TO BED BECAUSE I WAS ASKED TO -- I WAS ASKED BY SHIRLEY TO UNPLUG THE PHONE.

# 168 Q:

SO EVERYONE KNEW HE WAS GOING TO BED AND THAT YOU WERE GOING UPSTAIRS WITH HIM?

# 169 A:

YES.

# 170 Q:

SO IT WASN'T A SECRET THAT YOU WERE GOING UPSTAIRS WITH MR. SIMPSON WHEN HE WAS GOING TO BED?

# 171 A:

NO, IT WASN'T.

# 172 Q:

OKAY. SO THAT IF THERE WOULD BE REVEALED IN SOME SUBSEQUENT BOOK A CONVERSATION THAT OCCURRED ON JUNE 13TH WHEN MR. SIMPSON WAS GOING TO BED, YOU KNEW THAT THE PEOPLE IN THAT ROOM COULD IDENTIFY YOU AS BEING THE SOURCE OF THAT CONVERSATION, CORRECT?

# 173 A:

CORRECT.

# 174 Q:

SO YOU DIDN'T REALLY HAVE A CONCERN ABOUT BEING ANONYMOUS, DID YOU, SIR?

# 175 A:

WELL, LIKE I SAID, I FELT THAT THOSE -- OKAY. LIKE I FELT O.J. WOULD KNOW. AND AT THE TIME -- LIKE I SAID, WHEN I TOLD SHEILA ABOUT THIS, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS SEVERAL PEOPLE OF COURSE THERE AT THE HOUSE AND I WAS THINKING HEY, NO ONE WOULD REALLY I MEAN MAYBE PUT TWO AND TWO TOGETHER.

# 176 Q:

I SEE. NOW, YOU WERE A POLICE OFFICER FOR HOW MANY YEARS?

# 177 A:

15 YEARS.

# 178 Q:

AND DURING THE COURSE OF YOUR 15 YEARS AS A POLICE OFFICER, YOU INVESTIGATED CRIMES I WOULD ASSUME.

# 179 A:

I DID.

# 180 Q:

AND WOULD THERE BE OCCASIONS THAT YOU WOULD READ DESCRIPTIONS ABOUT EVENTS IN EITHER NEWSPAPERS OR BOOKS THAT WOULD ASSIST YOUR INVESTIGATION OF A PENDING CRIME?

# 181 A:

YES. I WOULD SAY YOU'RE CORRECT.

# 182 Q:

SO IT WAS NOT UNSUSPECTING OF YOU THAT IF SOME POLICE OFFICER WERE TO LATER READ ABOUT A CONVERSATION IN A BOOK CONCERNING A CONVERSATION THAT MAY HAVE OCCURRED WITH O.J. SIMPSON, THAT SOMEONE LATER WOULD INVESTIGATE THE SOURCE OF THAT CONVERSATION, TRUE?

# 183 A:

TRUE.

# 184 Q:

SO YOU KNEW, MR. SHIPP, THAT BY HAVING THIS CONVERSATION WITH MISS WELLER, THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO ASSURE YOUR ANONYMITY, CORRECT?

# 185 A:

MR. DOUGLAS, I WOULD SAY YOU'RE PROBABLY CORRECT.

# 186 Q:

PRIOR TO THE BOOK BEING RELEASED, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO REVIEW A DRAFT OF THE MANUSCRIPT CONCERNING YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH MISS WELLER?

# 187 A:

YEAH, I DID.

# 188 Q:

HOW MANY TIMES?

# 189 A:

ONCE THAT I LOOKED IT OVER. ONCE.

# 190 Q:

WHEN IN THIS SERIES OF SIX OR SEVEN OCCASIONS THAT YOU AND SHE MET DID YOU REVIEW A DRAFT?

# 191 A:

I DIDN'T REVIEW IT AT ALL AT THE TIME WHEN SHE TOOK THE NOTES.

# 192 Q:

NO. I'M ASKING WHEN DURING THE COURSE OF THESE SIX OR SEVEN TIMES THAT YOU MET WITH HER DID YOU REVIEW THE DRAFT.

# 193 THE COURT:

DOESN'T THAT ASSUME A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE?

# 194 RON SHIPP:

I THOUGHT I JUST ANSWERED THAT.

# 195 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: DID YOU EVER REVIEW THE DRAFT TEXT OF WHAT SHE SAID?

# 196 A:

NOT DURING THE SIX OR SEVEN TIMES WHEN I MET WITH HER.

# 197 Q:

WHEN DID YOU REVIEW THAT DRAFT, SIR?

# 198 A:

PROBABLY MAYBE TWO WEEKS BEFORE IT CAME OUT.

# 199 Q:

AND DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO OFFER ANY CORRECTIONS?

# 200 A:

YES, I DID.

# 201 Q:

AND DID YOU OFFER CORRECTIONS?

# 202 A:

NOTHING -- YES, I DID.

# 203 Q:

WERE THE CORRECTIONS ULTIMATELY MADE?

# 204 A:

YES, THEY WERE.

# 205 Q:

YOU'VE HAD OCCASION SINCE THE PUBLICATION OF THAT BOOK TO READ THE VERSION APPLYING TO YOU?

# 206 A:

YES, I HAVE.

# 207 Q:

IS IT ACCURATE?

# 208 A:

YEAH. JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING IS ACCURATE, YEAH. I WOULD SAY IT IS.

# 209 MR. DOUGLAS:

I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW THE WITNESS, YOUR HONOR --

# 210 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, COULD I GET A COPY OF THIS --

# 211 MR. DOUGLAS:

I'M GIVING A COPY, YOUR HONOR. COPY OF A DOCUMENT THAT I AM GOING TO HAVE MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S -- I AM SORRY -- DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1000.

# 212 (DEFT'S 1000 FOR ID = PARTIAL DRAFT, RAGING HEART)

# 213 MR. DOUGLAS:

AND I'M WRITING D-1000 IN THE UPPER RIGHT-HAND CORNER.

# 214 THE COURT:

AND WHAT PAGE ARE YOU STARTING AT?

# 215 MR. DOUGLAS:

I'M BEGINNING AT PAGE 8, YOUR HONOR, AND IT GOES UNTIL PAGE 12.

# 216 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 217 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: FIRST OF ALL, MR. SHIPP, LOOKING AT THE DOCUMENT THAT HAS NOW BEEN MARKED AS DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1000, DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE THE RELEVANT PAGES OF THE BOOK RAGING HEART BY MISS WELLER?

# 218 A:

IT APPEARS TO BE. YES, IT DOES.

# 219 Q:

AND THERE APPEARS TO BE SOME REFERENCE TO THE CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WITH MR. SIMPSON SUPPOSEDLY BEGINNING ON PAGE 9, CORRECT?

# 220 A:

YES.

# 221 Q:

WAS IT IN ANY WAY -- WITHDRAWN. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CONVERSATIONS THAT YOU HAD WITH MISS WELLER. YOU SAY YOU SPOKE TO HER THE FIRST TIME BEFORE TALKING WITH MARCIA AND BILL AND PHIL, CORRECT?

# 222 A:

YES. THAT'S CORRECT.

# 223 Q:

AND HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU SPEND WITH MISS WELLER THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU SPOKE WITH HER?

# 224 A:

MAYBE TWO HOURS.

# 225 Q:

DID YOU TALK IN PERSON OR ON THE PHONE?

# 226 A:

IN PERSON.

# 227 Q:

HOW DID SHE GET YOUR NUMBER, IF YOU KNOW?

# 228 A:

FROM ROLF.

# 229 Q:

DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO SPEAK WITH ROLF ABOUT YOUR SUPPOSED CONVERSATION WITH MR. SIMPSON BEFORE YOU MET WITH MISS WELLER?

# 230 A:

DID I TELL HIM?

# 231 Q:

CORRECT.

# 232 A:

NO, I DID NOT.

# 233 Q:

WHEN YOU MET WITH MISS WELLER, WHERE DID YOU MEET?

# 234 A:

AT YAMASHIRO'S.

# 235 Q:

YOU AND SHE HAD DINNER?

# 236 A:

HORS D'OEUVRES.

# 237 Q:

ANYONE ELSE PRESENT?

# 238 A:

WAITRESSES.

# 239 Q:

AT THE TABLE WITH THE TWO OF YOU I'M ASKING.

# 240 A:

NO. NO ONE ELSE.

# 241 Q:

AND AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE FIRST MEETING, DID THE TWO OF YOU AGREE TO MEET AGAIN?

# 242 A:

YES, WE DID.

# 243 Q:

AFTER YOU MET WITH HER THE FIRST TIME, DID YOU LIKE HER?

# 244 A:

YES, I LIKED HER.

# 245 Q:

DID YOU FEEL SOME SORT OF KINSHIP WITH HER?

# 246 A:

KINSHIP?

# 247 Q:

CORRECT.

# 248 A:

I THOUGHT SHE WAS A NICE PERSON, YEAH.

# 249 Q:

DID YOU FEEL THAT YOU COULD TRUST HER?

# 250 A:

YES, I DID.

# 251 Q:

DID YOU FEEL THAT YOU COULD TRUST HER MORE THAN YOU FELT THAT YOU COULD TRUST THE POLICE DEPARTMENT?

# 252 A:

IT'S NOT A THING OF TRUSTING THE POLICE DEPARTMENT. I FELT I COULD TRUST HER AS FAR AS NOT PRINTING MY NAME IN A BOOK.

# 253 Q:

BUT YOU WERE GOING TO TRUST HER WITH SOME INFORMATION THAT YOU DIDN'T TELL THE POLICE.

# 254 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 255 Q:

WERE YOU NOT?

# 256 A:

THAT'S RIGHT.

# 257 Q:

YOU WERE GOING TO TRUST HER WITH SOME INFORMATION THAT YOU HADN'T TOLD THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY, CORRECT?

# 258 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 259 Q:

WHEN DID YOU DEVELOP THAT QUALITY OF TRUST IN HER THAT YOU WERE COMFORTABLE SHARING SOMETHING WITH HER THAT YOU HAD NOT SHARED WITH THE POLICE?

# 260 A:

MAYBE -- I DON'T KNOW. MAYBE THE THIRD TIME I MET WITH HER.

# 261 Q:

THE THIRD TIME, YOU FELT THAT COMFORT. AND WHERE HAD YOU MET WITH HER THE SECOND TIME?

# 262 A:

MOST OF THE TIMES WE MET, IT WAS AT YAMASHIRO'S.

# 263 Q:

EACH OF THE TIMES?

# 264 A:

YEAH.

# 265 Q:

HOW MUCH TIME PASSED BETWEEN THE FIRST TIME AND THE SECOND TIME?

# 266 A:

OH, MAYBE A COUPLE DAYS.

# 267 Q:

COUPLE OF DAYS. WHEN YOU MET THE FIRST TIME, WHO PICKED UP THE TAB?

# 268 A:

FIRST TIME, I DID.

# 269 Q:

AND THE SECOND TIME?

# 270 A:

I THINK I DID.

# 271 Q:

AND THE THIRD TIME?

# 272 A:

I THINK SHE DID.

# 273 Q:

AND THE FOURTH TIME?

# 274 A:

I THINK SHE MAY HAVE.

# 275 Q:

AND THE FIFTH TIME?

# 276 A:

WE WEREN'T ALWAYS EATING. WE NEVER HAD DINNER. WE WERE JUST BASICALLY JUST HAVING HORS D'OEUVRES AND --

# 277 Q:

DID YOU AND MISS WELLER EVER SIGN ANY DOCUMENTS CONCERNING YOUR INTERVIEW WITH HER?

# 278 A:

YEAH. WE SIGNED A DOCUMENT SAYING THAT SHE WOULD NOT REVEAL MY NAME.

# 279 Q:

WHERE IS YOUR COPY OF THAT DOCUMENT?

# 280 A:

IN MY HOUSE.

# 281 Q:

COULD YOU BRING IT WITH YOU TOMORROW?

# 282 A:

SURE.

# 283 Q:

WHEN YOU COME TO COURT?

# 284 A:

YES.

# 285 Q:

THANK YOU. AND HOW MANY PAGES DOES THAT DOCUMENT CONSIST OF?

# 286 A:

ONE.

# 287 Q:

ONE PAGE? AND WHAT DOES THAT DOCUMENT SAY AS BEST AS YOU CAN RECALL?

# 288 A:

I CAN'T REMEMBER.

# 289 Q:

TELL ME ALL THAT YOU CAN REMEMBER THAT IT SAYS.

# 290 A:

SOMETHING, " I -- I, SHEILA WELLER PROMISE NOT TO REVEAL YOUR NAME," SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

# 291 Q:

WAS THAT DOCUMENT SIGNED BY MISS WELLER AND BY YOURSELF?

# 292 A:

YES, IT WAS.

# 293 Q:

AND IT WAS DATED?

# 294 A:

I THINK SO.

# 295 Q:

OKAY. AND DURING WHICH OF THE SIX OR SEVEN OCCASIONS THAT YOU AND SHE MET DID YOU SIGN THAT DOCUMENT THAT WE'VE JUST DISCUSSED?

# 296 A:

I THINK IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE FIRST. ONCE I AGREED TO START TALKING WITH HER, I THINK SHE WROTE IT UP.

# 297 Q:

IN YOUR MIND, WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR YOUR COMFORT THAT YOU BE ANONYMOUS?

# 298 A:

YES.

# 299 Q:

IF YOU HAD NOT HAD A PROMISE OF ANONYMITY IN YOUR MIND, WERE YOU PREPARED TO SHARE INTIMATE SECRETS ABOUT MR. SIMPSON WITH A TOTAL STRANGER?

# 300 A:

MR. DOUGLAS, SOMETIMES WHEN PEOPLE ARE GOING THROUGH STUFF, SOMETIMES THEY SAY THINGS THAT THEY REALLY WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW.

# 301 Q:

THAT'S NOT MY QUESTION, SIR. MY QUESTION IS, IN YOUR MIND, WERE YOU PREPARED TO SHARE INTIMATE SECRETS ABOUT YOUR FRIEND TO A TOTAL STRANGER WITHOUT THE PROMISE OF ANONYMITY?

# 302 A:

OH, NO. NO.

# 303 Q:

SO THE PROMISE OF ANONYMITY WAS THE REASON OR THE MOTIVATION FOR YOU TO SHARE INTIMATE SECRETS WITH YOUR FRIEND TO A TOTAL STRANGER?

# 304 A:

CORRECT.

# 305 Q:

HAVE YOU IN THE PAST SHARED INTIMATE SECRETS ABOUT A FRIEND TO SOMEBODY WRITING A BOOK?

# 306 A:

NEVER.

# 307 Q:

NEVER BEFORE?

# 308 A:

NEVER.

# 309 Q:

HAVE YOU IN THE PAST LIED TO POLICE OFFICERS ABOUT A MURDER INVESTIGATION?

# 310 A:

NEVER.

# 311 Q:

NEVER BEFORE. YOU SAY THAT THE CONVERSATION WITH MR. SIMPSON WAS EATING YOU UP. IS THAT YOUR STATEMENT?

# 312 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 313 Q:

AND DID YOU HOPE TO EXERCISE THIS PAIN FROM YOUR BODY BY TALKING TO SHEILA WELLER?

# 314 A:

YES, I DID.

# 315 Q:

YOU DIDN'T THINK THAT YOU COULD EXERCISE THIS PAIN FROM YOUR BODY BY TALKING TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT?

# 316 A:

WELL, AT THE TIME, I -- TRUTHFULLY, NO, I DID NOT. I DID NOT WANT TO PUT THEM IN A CERTAIN SITUATION KNOWING THEIR PROFESSION, HOW PROFESSIONAL THESE GUYS ARE.

# 317 Q:

YOU DIDN'T WANT TO PUT THE POLICE IN THE POSITION OF KNOWING INFORMATION THAT YOU THOUGHT WAS IMPORTANT CONCERNING THE DEATH OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?

# 318 A:

WELL, I KNOW IF I WOULD HAVE TOLD PHIL, "OKAY, HEY, PHIL, CONFIDENCE, YOU KNOW, I WANT TO SHARE SOMETHING WITH YOU," THERE'S NO WAY IN THE WORLD PHIL WOULD HAVE SAID, "YEAH, RON, I'M GOING TO BURY THIS." SO I --

# 319 Q:

BUT YOU DID KNOW THAT WHEN THE BOOK CAME OUT, PHIL WOULD BE ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT, TRUE?

# 320 A:

LIKE I SAID, I FIGURED SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE, YEAH, THEY WOULD KNOW IT WAS ME.

# 321 Q:

SO SOONER OR LATER, THEY WOULD HAVE TO FIND OUT?

# 322 A:

SURE.

# 323 Q:

DID YOU THINK THAT YOU COULD RID YOURSELF OF THIS PAIN BY TALKING WITH THE PEOPLE WHO WERE PROSECUTING MR. SIMPSON?

# 324 A:

I HAVE.

# 325 Q:

AFTER THE BOOK CAME OUT.

# 326 A:

MAYBE A DAY OR TWO BEFORE.

# 327 Q:

SINCE YOU REALIZED THAT IT WOULD PROBABLY OCCUR THAT YOUR IDENTITY WOULD BE DISCLOSED DURING THE POLICE DEPARTMENT INVESTIGATION OF THE ALLEGATIONS IN THE BOOK, WHY DIDN'T YOU TALK TO THE POLICE AFTER TALKING WITH MISS WELLER, IMMEDIATELY AFTER TALKING TO MISS WELLER?

# 328 A:

BECAUSE LIKE I SAID, MR. DOUGLAS, AT THE TIME, I JUST DID NOT WANT IT TO BE DOWN ON RECORD WHAT I THOUGHT, MY PERSONAL FEELINGS, WHAT I FELT ABOUT MR. SIMPSON.

# 329 Q:

BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T WANT TO BE A WITNESS IN THIS CASE?

# 330 A:

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

# 331 Q:

ISN'T IT TRUE, SIR, THAT YOU WERE HOPEFUL THAT YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO GARNER SOME PUBLICITY BY MAKING UP FALSE ALLEGATIONS ABOUT MR. SIMPSON?

# 332 A:

NO, THAT'S NOT TRUE AT ALL.

# 333 Q:

DIDN'T YOU THINK, SIR, THAT BY CONCOCTING THIS STORY ABOUT MR. SIMPSON, IT MIGHT ENHANCE YOUR OWN PERSONAL PROFILE?

# 334 A:

MR. DOUGLAS, I PUT ALL MY FAITH IN GOD AND MY CONSCIENCE. SINCE NICOLE'S BEEN DEAD, I'VE FELT NOTHING BUT GUILT, MY OWN PERSONAL GUILT, THAT I DIDN'T DO AS MUCH AS I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE.

# 335 Q:

WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS. DIDN'T YOU THINK THAT BY BEING A WITNESS IN THIS CASE, IT WOULD ENHANCE YOUR OWN PERSONAL PROFILE?

# 336 A:

NO, SIR.

# 337 Q:

AREN'T YOU AN ACTOR?

# 338 A:

SIR, I HAVE DONE SOME ACTING, YES, I HAVE.

# 339 Q:

LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT. HOW MUCH ACTING HAVE YOU DONE, MR. SHIPP?

# 340 A:

I'VE DONE ALMOST -- A BUNCH OF BIT PARTS HERE AND THERE.

# 341 Q:

HAVE YOU GONE TO SCHOOL FOR ACTING?

# 342 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION. IS THIS RELEVANT, YOUR HONOR?

# 343 THE COURT:

YES, SOMEWHAT. LET'S SEE WHERE IT GOES.

# 344 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: HAVE YOU GONE TO SCHOOL FOR ACTING?

# 345 A:

YEARS AGO.

# 346 Q:

WHEN DID YOU GO TO SCHOOL?

# 347 A:

I JUST TOOK A -- TOOK A COMMERCIAL CLASS.

# 348 Q:

HOW LONG DID THE SCHOOL LAST?

# 349 A:

SIX WEEKS.

# 350 Q:

DID THE SCHOOL TEACH YOU HOW TO PLAY CERTAIN ROLES?

# 351 A:

THE COMMERCIAL CLASS?

# 352 Q:

YES.

# 353 A:

NO.

# 354 Q:

WELL, YOU HAVEN'T JUST ACTED IN SCHOOLS OR IN COMMERCIALS, HAVE YOU?

# 355 A:

NO. I'VE DONE OTHERS.

# 356 Q:

YEAH. YOU'VE ASPIRED TO GENERATE AN ACTING CAREER, DIDN'T YOU?

# 357 A:

I'VE ACTED -- ALMOST EVERYTHING I HAVE DONE, I PLAYED A COP, WHICH IS NOT TOO HARD TO DO.

# 358 Q:

BUT IT IS A ROLE; IS IT NOT?

# 359 A:

YEAH, IT'S A ROLE.

# 360 Q:

AND BY PLAYING A ROLE, YOU'RE TRYING TO ACT AS IF YOU'RE SOMETHING OTHER THAN YOUR TRUE SELF.

# 361 A:

LIKE I SAID, I PLAYED A COP. THAT'S NOT HARD TO DO. SO I PLAYED MY TRUE SELF A LOT OF TIMES.

# 362 Q:

ARE YOU ACTING NOW?

# 363 A:

EVERY NOW AND THEN. I DO A LITTLE SOMETHING HERE AND THERE.

# 364 Q:

ISN'T IT TRUE, SIR, THAT BY BEING THE WITNESS WHO HAS A CONVERSATION WITH MR. SIMPSON, THAT IT IS GOING TO POSSIBLY ENHANCE YOUR PROFILE AROUND THE WORLD?

# 365 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 366 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 367 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: YOU MAY ANSWER THE QUESTION.

# 368 A:

MR. DOUGLAS, THERE'S NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM THAT I WOULD SIT HERE AND GO THROUGH ALL THIS, PUT MY FAMILY THROUGH THIS FOR AN ACTING CAREER. I COULD CARE LESS IF I DO ANY ACTING.

# 369 Q:

THAT'S NOT THE QUESTION. THE QUESTION IS --

# 370 MR. DARDEN:

YOUR HONOR, HE'S ANSWERING THE QUESTION.

# 371 THE COURT:

HE'S ANSWERED THE QUESTION.

# 372 MR. DARDEN:

CAN WE ASK THE WITNESS IF HE HAS FINISHED HIS ANSWER?

# 373 THE COURT:

HOLD ON. I THINK HE'S FINISHED HIS ANSWER. HAVE YOU FINISHED YOUR ANSWER?

# 374 RON SHIPP:

YES.

# 375 THE COURT:

MR. DOUGLAS.

# 376 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: YOU DID REALIZE, MR. SHIPP, THAT AS YOU'VE TESTIFIED AS YOU HAVE, YOU ARE GOING TO ENHANCE THE NAME OF RON SHIPP AROUND THE WORLD?

# 377 A:

JUST LIKE YOU ARE ENHANCING CARL DOUGLAS BY BEING MR. -- ATTORNEY HERE.

KEY QUOTE

# 378 Q:

YOU REALIZE THAT TOO, RIGHT?

# 379 A:

CERTAINLY.

# 380 Q:

SO YOU ARE A STAR AS WELL?

# 381 A:

WELL, I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT EVERYBODY -- YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT THEY SAY. PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SEE YOU. BUT THAT'S NOT WHY I'M DOING THIS, MR. DOUGLAS. I'M DOING THIS FOR MY CONSCIENCE AND MY PEACE OF MIND. I WILL NOT HAVE THE BLOOD OF NICOLE ON RON SHIPP. I CAN SLEEP AT NIGHT UNLIKE A LOT OF OTHERS.

# 382 Q:

THANK YOU, MR. SHIPP. NOW, HOW MANY MONTHS PASSED BETWEEN YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH MISS WELLER ABOUT THIS SUPPOSED DREAM AND YOUR CONVERSATION WITH ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITY ABOUT THE DREAM?

# 383 A:

I DON'T KNOW WHAT DID I TELL HER. AUGUST I GUESS. FROM AUGUST UNTIL I TOLD MR. DARDEN.

# 384 Q:

AND HOW DID IT OCCUR THAT YOU TOLD MR. DARDEN ABOUT THIS SUPPOSED DREAM?

# 385 A:

MAINLY, THOUGHT THAT IT PROBABLY WILL COME UP HERE IN COURT AND I DID NOT WANT TO SIT UP HERE AND LIE. LIKE I SAID, I'VE NEVER LIED ON THE STAND EVER IN MY LIFE AND I'M NOT STARTING NOW.

# 386 Q:

SO YOU CALLED MR. DARDEN UP?

# 387 A:

YEAH, I DID. I THINK I DID CALL MR. DARDEN UP, YEAH.

# 388 Q:

AND DID YOU TELL HIM IN THAT CONVERSATION THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING THAT YOU HAD LIED ABOUT EARLIER?

# 389 A:

NOW, ARE YOU REFERRING -- OKAY, THE FACT THAT I DIDN'T REVEAL INFORMATION TO MISS CLARK, THAT I LIED, IS THAT LYING?

# 390 Q:

CORRECT.

# 391 A:

YEAH, I CALLED HIM UP AND SAID I LIED.

# 392 Q:

AND WHAT DID HE SAY WHEN YOU CALLED HIM AND SAID, "I HAD LIED EARLIER"?

# 393 A:

I DIDN'T USE THOSE WORDS. BUT ANYHOW, HE ASKED ME TO COME IN AND HE ASKED ME THE SAME QUESTIONS YOU ASKED ME, WHY DID I NOT REVEAL --

# 394 Q:

AND WHO WAS PRESENT DURING THE SUBSEQUENT CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WITH MR. DARDEN ABOUT YOUR EARLIER LIE?

# 395 A:

I THINK PHIL VANNATTER.

# 396 Q:

ANYONE ELSE?

# 397 A:

I THINK IT WAS JUST PHIL.

# 398 Q:

AND YOU MET IN MR. DARDEN'S OFFICE?

# 399 A:

YES, I DID.

# 400 Q:

AND HOW LONG DID THAT SUBSEQUENT CONVERSATION TAKE?

# 401 A:

I DON'T KNOW. MAYBE TOTAL OF -- I MEAN -- YEAH. TOTAL OF 45 MINUTES I THINK JUST SITTING THERE AND HAVING THEM RECORD IT AND STUFF LIKE THAT.

# 402 Q:

AND DID YOU DISCLOSE ANYTHING ELSE DURING THAT CONVERSATION THAT YOU HADN'T SAID EARLIER?

# 403 A:

EXCUSE ME. OTHER THAN THE LEO CONVERSATION?

# 404 Q:

OTHER THAN THE CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS ALLEGED DREAM.

# 405 MR. DARDEN:

MAY I INTERRUPT AND CONFER WITH COUNSEL FOR A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

# 406 THE COURT:

CERTAINLY.

# 407 MR. DARDEN:

THANK YOU.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Carl Douglas

SO DID YOU LIE WHEN YOU DIDN'T TELL ME ABOUT THAT DREAM?

Forces Shipp into a direct admission of lying — the core of the credibility attack.

Ron Shipp

I SURE DID.

Unambiguous admission of lying to defense counsel, compounding similar omissions to the DA and police.

Ron Shipp

NEVER IN COURT.

Shipp draws a sharp distinction between courtroom honesty and prior omissions — a line that cuts both ways.

Ron Shipp

I WILL NOT HAVE THE BLOOD OF NICOLE ON RON SHIPP. I CAN SLEEP AT NIGHT UNLIKE A LOT OF OTHERS.

The most emotionally charged moment of the cross — Shipp reframes his testimony as moral obligation rather than self-interest, and implies others cannot say the same.

Ron Shipp

JUST LIKE YOU ARE ENHANCING CARL DOUGLAS BY BEING MR. -- ATTORNEY HERE.

Shipp turns Douglas's 'acting career' attack directly back on the examiner, drawing unexpected laughter and undercutting the line of questioning.

Evidence (3)

Defense 1000

Partial draft of 'Raging Heart' by Sheila Weller, pages 8-12, containing the section about Shipp's conversation with OJ Simpson

Introduced and shown to witness for identification

Informal

60-page transcript of Shipp's July 28, 1994 interview with Marcia Clark, Bill Hodgman, and Phil Vannatter

Referenced to establish what Shipp withheld

Informal

One-page anonymity agreement signed by Shipp and Sheila Weller promising not to reveal his name

Discussed; Douglas requests Shipp bring the physical document to court the following day

Notable Exchanges (4)

Carl Douglas•Ron Shipp

Douglas methodically walks Shipp through three separate interviews — 90 minutes with the DA, 25 minutes with defense investigator Joe Brown, 45 minutes with Douglas himself — establishing that Shipp never disclosed the dream conversation in any of them. Shipp confirms each omission.

strategic

Carl Douglas•Ron Shipp

Douglas suggests Shipp's motive was enhancing his acting career; Shipp deflects by pointing out Douglas is also raising his own profile, then delivers the 'blood of Nicole' speech.

heated

Carl Douglas•Ron Shipp

Douglas presses Shipp on whether anonymity was genuinely possible given that people at the house knew Shipp accompanied OJ upstairs. Shipp ultimately concedes Douglas is 'probably correct.'

revealing

Christopher Darden•Carl Douglas•Lance A. Ito

After Douglas interrupted Shipp mid-answer, Darden objected and asked if Shipp had finished; Ito upheld it — a rare moment of the prosecution and judge reining in defense counsel.

procedural

Light Moments (3)

Ron Shipp

Shipp responds to 'Anyone else present?' at his dinner with Weller with 'Waitresses' — a flat, dry answer that undercuts the solemnity of the questioning.

Ron Shipp

When Douglas implies Shipp snuck upstairs with OJ secretly, Shipp replies 'He snuck upstairs?' with evident skepticism.

Ron Shipp

Shipp turns 'you're enhancing yourself by testifying' directly back on Douglas: 'Just like you are enhancing Carl Douglas by being Mr. — attorney here.'

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Ron Shipp

Prior omissions / withholding material information

Douglas establishes that Shipp withheld the alleged dream conversation from Phil Vannatter, Marcia Clark, and Bill Hodgman (90-minute DA interview), defense investigator Joe Brown, and Douglas himself (45-minute defense interview) — and that Shipp admitted lying in each instance.

⚔ Ron Shipp

Motive to fabricate — acting career / personal fame

Douglas elicits that Shipp has acting ambitions, attended acting school, and played roles. He then argues Shipp's worldwide exposure as the witness who heard OJ confess to dreaming about murder would enhance his profile — a charge Shipp rejects but does not fully deflect.

⚔ Ron Shipp

Anonymity argument undermined

Douglas walks Shipp through the logic that anonymity was never realistic — people at the house knew Shipp went upstairs with OJ, and as a 15-year police veteran, Shipp should have known investigators would trace a published conversation back to him. Shipp concedes Douglas is 'probably correct.'

Witness Demeanor

Frequently evasive on dates ('Whatever you say,' 'If that's what you say')

Occasionally combative, pushing back on framing ('Define grieve')

Candid and unflinching when admitting omissions ('I SURE DID')

Turned increasingly assertive and emotional toward the end of testimony

Objections

7 objections (3 sustained, 3 overruled)

Proceeding 4541 • 407 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103