Cross-examination of Ron Shipp (part 2)

📄 Cross-examination of Ron Shipp (part 2) — Wednesday, February 1, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\FEB\1\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-RON-SHIPP.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 10 of 167

◀ Cross-examination of Ron Shipp (part 1) Sidebar: witness conduct and demeanor ▶

Witness: Ron Shipp
Examiner: Carl Douglas
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, February 1, 1995 • Utterances: 152

Defense attorney Carl Douglas cross-examines Ron Shipp, aggressively challenging his account of a June 13th bedroom conversation with Simpson in which Simpson allegedly asked about DNA evidence and mentioned police had found a bloody glove, a cap, blood in his car, and blood in the house. Douglas attempts to suggest Simpson was too exhausted to have had this conversation, that Shipp's recollections are confused or fabricated, and that Shipp himself may have been the one to tell Simpson about the glove rather than the reverse. The examination produces a dramatic moment when Shipp directly addresses the defendant in open court.

# 1 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 2 MR. DOUGLAS:

I'LL WITHDRAW THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 3 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: YOU FIRST CALLED THE SIMPSON HOME ON JUNE 13TH SOMETIME THAT MORNING; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 4 A:

YES, I DID.

# 5 Q:

AND THAT WAS SOMETIME ABOUT 10:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, WASN'T IT?

# 6 A:

YEAH. MY MOM PAGED ME AT AROUND -- ABOUT 10:00, 10:30.

# 7 Q:

AND UPON HEARING THE NEWS, YOU TRIED TO REACH SOMEONE AT THE SIMPSON HOME, CORRECT?

# 8 A:

YES, I DID.

# 9 Q:

AND WHEN YOU PICKED UP THE PHONE AND DIALED THE SIMPSON HOME, DID SOMEONE ANSWER?

# 10 A:

YES, THEY DID.

# 11 Q:

WHO WAS THAT?

# 12 A:

MARK FUHRMAN.

# 13 Q:

HAD YOU KNOWN MARK FUHRMAN BEFORE JUNE 13TH?

# 14 A:

YES, I HAD.

# 15 Q:

WHEN MARK FUHRMAN PICKED UP THE PHONE, TELL ME EVERYTHING THAT YOU CAN RECALL ABOUT THAT CONVERSATION. FIRST OF ALL, WHAT'S THE FIRST THING THAT YOU ASKED MARK FUHRMAN?

# 16 MR. DARDEN:

HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR, ALL HEARSAY.

# 17 THE COURT:

HE CAN TELL US WHAT HE SAID, BUT THAT'S ABOUT IT.

# 18 MR. DOUGLAS:

VERY WELL.

# 19 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: WHAT DID YOU ASK MARK FUHRMAN?

# 20 A:

I SAID, "MARK, DID O.J. KILL NICOLE?"

# 21 Q:

DID YOU ASK MARK FUHRMAN ABOUT ANY OF THE EVIDENCE?

# 22 A:

NO, NOT AT ALL.

# 23 Q:

DID YOU ASK MARK FUHRMAN WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A SUSPECT IN MIND?

# 24 A:

YES. WELL, ACTUALLY, YEAH. HE TOLD ME -- HE WOULDN'T ANSWER ME. HE TOLD ME, "RON, YOU KNOW I CAN'T ANSWER YOU," AND I TRIED TO PERSUADE HIM, TOLD HIM, "HEY, IT'S ME YOU ARE TALKING TO."

# 25 Q:

HOW LONG DID YOU AND MARK FUHRMAN TALK ON THE PHONE THAT DAY?

# 26 A:

NO MORE THAN ONE MINUTE.

# 27 Q:

ONE MINUTE?

# 28 A:

AT THE MOST.

# 29 Q:

WITHOUT SAYING WHAT HE SAID, DID MARK FUHRMAN EXPLAIN WHY HE WAS THERE AT 10:00 O'CLOCK ANSWERING THE PHONE?

# 30 A:

I ALSO ASKED HIM -- I DID ASK HIM -- I ASKED HIM IF NICOLE WAS REALLY DEAD.

# 31 Q:

DID MARK EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY HE WAS THERE ANSWERING THE PHONE AT 10:00 O'CLOCK A.M.?

# 32 A:

YEAH. HE SAID HE WAS INVESTIGATING. THAT'S WHAT HE SAID, "YES, SHE IS DEAD," AND HE'S THERE INVESTIGATING THE HOMICIDE OF HER AND RON.

# 33 Q:

HE WAS AT MR. SIMPSON'S HOME AT 10:00 O'CLOCK INVESTIGATING THE HOMICIDE OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND RONALD GOLDMAN?

# 34 A:

RIGHT.

# 35 Q:

WHEN YOU RETURNED LATER THAT EVENING, WAS MR. SIMPSON THERE WHEN YOU GOT THERE?

# 36 A:

YES, HE WAS.

# 37 Q:

AND HE WAS THERE WITH HIS TWO SISTERS, CORRECT?

# 38 A:

YES.

# 39 Q:

AND HE WAS THERE WITH HIS TWO ADULT CHILDREN?

# 40 A:

IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN -- IF ARNELLE WAS THERE, I THINK SHE MIGHT HAVE BEEN IN THE GUEST HOUSE. I'M NOT SURE. I WAS THERE FOR A WHOLE WEEK, YOU KNOW, MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY. SO SOME OF THOSE DAYS HAVE RUN INTO EACH OTHER.

# 41 Q:

DO YOU RECALL HIS MOTHER WAS THERE?

# 42 A:

YES, I THINK SHE WAS THERE. YES, SHE WAS THERE.

# 43 Q:

THAT WAS A DAY THAT WAS SOMEWHAT UNUSUAL; WAS IT NOT?

# 44 A:

VERY MUCH, YES, IT WAS.

# 45 Q:

THERE WERE MEDIA OUTSIDE THE HOME; WERE THERE NOT?

# 46 A:

YES, THERE WAS.

# 47 Q:

THERE WERE HELICOPTERS CIRCLING OVERHEAD, TRUE?

# 48 A:

TRUE.

# 49 Q:

PEOPLE WERE INSIDE WATCHING DIFFERENT TELEVISION PROGRAMS, CORRECT?

# 50 A:

NO. EVERYBODY WAS WATCHING THE NEWS FOR THE MOST PART.

# 51 Q:

DIFFERENT NEWS PROGRAMS?

# 52 A:

YES.

# 53 Q:

THERE CAME A TIME, AS YOU'VE SAID, THAT MR. SIMPSON RETIRED UPSTAIRS TO THE BEDROOM.

# 54 A:

YES, THERE WAS.

# 55 Q:

AND HE ASKED YOU TO JOIN HIM ACCORDING TO YOUR VERSION.

# 56 A:

YES, HE DID.

# 57 Q:

AND DID YOU AND HE WALK UP THE STAIRS ALONE OR TOGETHER?

# 58 A:

TOGETHER.

# 59 Q:

AND DID YOU AND HE THEN WALK INTO THE BEDROOM TOGETHER?

# 60 A:

YES, WE DID.

# 61 Q:

AND IT WAS DURING THIS TIME WHILE YOU AND HE WERE IN THE BEDROOM TOGETHER THAT THIS CONVERSATION SUPPOSEDLY TOOK PLACE?

# 62 A:

YES, IT IS.

# 63 Q:

NOW, IS IT YOUR VERSION THAT MR. SIMPSON TOLD YOU THAT THE POLICE SAID THEY HAD FOUND A GLOVE?

# 64 A:

YES. THAT'S WHAT HE TOLD ME.

# 65 Q:

AND DID HE TELL YOU THAT THEY HAD FOUND A GLOVE WITH BLOOD ON IT?

# 66 A:

YEAH. THEY SAID THEY FOUND A BLOODY GLOVE. AND I DID LEAVE OUT ONE STATEMENT BECAUSE I DID -- WHEN MR. DARDEN WAS QUESTIONING ME, HE DID ASK ME WHAT DOES THIS MEAN, WHAT DOES ALL THIS MEAN.

# 67 Q:

NOW, DID HE TELL YOU WHEN HE HAD BEEN TOLD THAT THE POLICE HAD FOUND THE BLOODY GLOVE?

# 68 A:

I CAN'T REMEMBER.

# 69 Q:

YOU KNEW BY THE TIME OF YOUR CONVERSATION THAT THE POLICE HAD HAD AN INTERVIEW WITH MR. SIMPSON?

# 70 A:

YEAH. OKAY. YEAH, HE DID COME FROM DOWNTOWN, CORRECT.

# 71 Q:

AND YOU KNEW THAT MR. SIMPSON HAD VOLUNTARILY GONE DOWNTOWN, SPOKE TO THE POLICE, HAD GIVEN A STATEMENT?

# 72 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 73 Q:

AND YOU KNEW THAT MR. SIMPSON HAD VOLUNTARILY RETURNED FROM CHICAGO TO LOS ANGELES UPON LEARNING OF THE DEATHS?

# 74 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 75 Q:

NOW, IS IT YOUR VERSION THAT MR. SIMPSON TOLD YOU THAT THEY ALSO FOUND A CAP?

# 76 A:

IS IT MY VERSION?

# 77 Q:

DID MR. SIMPSON TELL YOU THAT THE POLICE HAD TOLD SIMPSON THAT THEY HAD ALSO FOUND A CAP?

# 78 A:

THERE WERE TWO ITEMS. I'M PRETTY SURE IT WAS A CAP AND A GLOVE.

# 79 Q:

DID SIMPSON TELL YOU THAT THE POLICE HAD TOLD SIMPSON THAT THE POLICE HAD FOUND BLOOD IN THE CAR?

# 80 A:

YEAH, I THINK HE DID. I'M NOT SURE. I THINK HE DID.

# 81 Q:

WELL, IF THAT STATEMENT WAS WRITTEN IN EXHIBIT 1000 --

# 82 A:

UH-HUH.

# 83 Q:

-- THAT SIMPSON TOLD LEO THAT THE POLICE HAD FOUND BLOOD IN THE CAR, WOULD THAT STATEMENT HAVE COME FROM YOU SINCE YOU'RE LEO?

# 84 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 85 Q:

DID SIMPSON TELL YOU THAT THE POLICE HAD TOLD SIMPSON THAT BLOOD WAS FOUND IN THE HOUSE, IN HIS HOUSE?

# 86 A:

YES, HE DID.

# 87 Q:

NOW, IT'S YOUR POSITION THAT SIMPSON ASKED YOU ABOUT DNA EVIDENCE?

# 88 A:

YES, HE DID.

# 89 Q:

DID SIMPSON ASK YOU ABOUT REGULAR BLOOD, SEROLOGICAL EVIDENCE AS WELL?

# 90 A:

NO, HE DID NOT.

# 91 Q:

ISN'T IT TRUE, SIR, THAT SIMPSON NEVER ASKED YOU ANYTHING ABOUT OR MENTION TO YOU ANYTHING ABOUT A CAP BEING FOUND?

# 92 A:

THAT HE NEVER MENTIONED IT TO ME?

# 93 Q:

CORRECT.

# 94 A:

NO, IT'S NOT TRUE. HE DID --

# 95 Q:

ISN'T IT TRUE, SIR, THAT SIMPSON NEVER SAID ANYTHING TO YOU ABOUT THERE BEING BLOOD FOUND IN THE CAR?

# 96 A:

NO, IT'S NOT TRUE.

# 97 Q:

ISN'T IT TRUE, SIR, THAT MR. SIMPSON SAID NOTHING TO YOU ABOUT BLOOD BEING FOUND IN THE HOUSE?

# 98 A:

THAT'S NOT TRUE.

# 99 Q:

ISN'T IT TRUE, SIR, THAT YOU MENTIONED TO MR. SIMPSON THAT THE POLICE HAD FOUND THE GLOVE ON HIS PROPERTY?

# 100 A:

I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THEY FOUND IN THE HOUSE. NOTHING.

# 101 Q:

DIDN'T YOU TAKE MR. SIMPSON OUT TO BEHIND THE GARAGE TO SHOW HIM THE AREA WHERE THE GLOVE WAS SUPPOSEDLY FOUND?

# 102 A:

THIS IS SAD, O.J., BUT NO. THIS IS REALLY SAD.

KEY QUOTE

# 103 MR. DOUGLAS:

YOUR HONOR, I MOVE TO STRIKE THAT.

# 104 THE COURT:

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, YOU ARE TO DISREGARD MR. SHIPP'S DIRECT COMMENT TO THE DEFENDANT. MR. SHIPP, PLEASE, YOU ARE INSTRUCTED NOT TO DO THAT.

# 105 RON SHIPP:

I'M SORRY.

# 106 THE COURT:

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, PLEASE DISREGARD THAT. ALL RIGHT. THEY ALL NODDED IN AGREEMENT. MR. DOUGLAS.

# 107 MR. WITNESS:

NO, I DID NOT.

# 108 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: ISN'T IT TRUE, SIR, THAT WHEN YOU LEFT THE SIMPSON HOME, YOU LEFT AND WALKED CATHY RANDA OUT TO HER CAR?

# 109 A:

LIKE I SAY, I WAS THERE A WHOLE WEEK. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS THAT NIGHT OR -- I HAVE WALKED A LOT OF PEOPLE TO THEIR CARS.

# 110 Q:

WELL, THINK HARD. JUNE 13TH.

# 111 A:

NO. I WALKED MYSELF TO THE CAR.

# 112 Q:

YOU DIDN'T WALK CATHY RANDA TO CATHY RANDA'S CAR?

# 113 A:

ON JUNE 13TH?

# 114 Q:

ON JUNE 13TH.

# 115 A:

NO, BECAUSE I WAS SO SHAKEN UP. I REMEMBER I WALKED BY MYSELF AND I SAT IN THE CAR AND I WAS BY MYSELF. I REMEMBER THAT BECAUSE I WAS VERY TRIPPED OUT OVER ALL OF THIS.

KEY QUOTE

# 116 Q:

ISN'T IT TRUE, SIR, THAT YOU AND CATHY RANDA WALKED OUT TOGETHER FROM THE FIRST FLOOR RIGHT OUT THE HOUSE TOGETHER, AND AFTER YOU WALKED HER TO HER CAR, YOU THEN GOT INTO YOUR CAR AND LEFT?

# 117 A:

NOT THAT NIGHT, NO.

# 118 Q:

ISN'T IT TRUE, MR. SHIPP, THAT BECAUSE O.J. -- WITHDRAWN. YOU ARE AWARE THAT O.J. SIMPSON WAS VERY TIRED THAT EVENING; ARE YOU NOT?

# 119 A:

THAT'S TRUE.

# 120 Q:

AND YOU ARE AWARE THAT O.J. SIMPSON WAS VERY TIRED BECAUSE HE HADN'T GOTTEN MUCH SLEEP THE NIGHT BEFORE, TRUE?

# 121 A:

TRUE.

# 122 Q:

BECAUSE HE HAD TAKEN A RED EYE FROM LOS ANGELES TO CHICAGO, TRUE?

# 123 A:

TRUE.

# 124 Q:

AND THEN HAD TAKEN A RED EYE OR TAKEN THE FIRST FLIGHT, 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, FROM CHICAGO BACK TO LOS ANGELES, CORRECT?

# 125 A:

TRUE.

# 126 Q:

AND THEN BECAUSE HE WAS ON THE PHONE SO MUCH, HE DID NOT SLEEP VERY MUCH ON THE RETURN FLIGHT FROM CHICAGO, CORRECT?

# 127 A:

CORRECT.

# 128 Q:

AND AS SOON AS HE GOT BACK FROM CHICAGO, HE WAS THEN HANDCUFFED BY POLICE OFFICERS AT HIS HOME, CORRECT?

# 129 A:

FROM WHAT I SAW ON THE T.V., YES.

# 130 Q:

AND THEN AS SOON AS HE GOT BACK FROM CHICAGO, HE WAS TAKEN DOWN TO PARKER CENTER, CORRECT?

# 131 A:

CORRECT.

# 132 Q:

AND AFTER TALKING WITH PARKER CENTER, HE WAS THEN BROUGHT BACK TO HIS HOUSE, CORRECT?

# 133 A:

CORRECT.

# 134 Q:

AND THEN WHEN HE RETURNED TO HIS HOUSE, HIS FRIENDS, HIS FAMILY WERE THERE, CORRECT?

# 135 A:

CORRECT.

# 136 Q:

AND SINCE HE HADN'T SLEPT FOR THE PAST 24 HOURS OR SO, HE WENT TO BED EARLY ON JUNE 13TH, DIDN'T HE?

# 137 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. THAT ASSUMES FACTS IN EVIDENCE, CALLS FOR SPECULATION, HEARSAY.

# 138 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 139 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: YOU MAY ANSWER THE QUESTION.

# 140 A:

NO, HE DID NOT.

# 141 Q:

ISN'T IT TRUE, SIR, THAT MR. SIMPSON DIDN'T GO TO BED AROUND 11:00 O'CLOCK, BUT IN FACT HE WENT TO BED CLOSER TO 8:00 OR 8:15 ON JUNE 13TH SINCE HE HADN'T SLEPT THE PRIOR NIGHT? ISN'T THAT TRUE?

# 142 A:

I AM SORRY. I AM SORRY. I LOST MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT. GO RIGHT AHEAD. SORRY.

# 143 Q:

SINCE MR. SIMPSON HADN'T SLEPT THE PRIOR EVENING OR EARLIER THAT DAY, HE WENT TO BED AT ABOUT 8:00 OR 8:15 ON JUNE 13TH, DIDN'T HE?

# 144 A:

NO, HE DID NOT.

# 145 Q:

AND ISN'T IT TRUE, SIR, THAT HIS SISTER SHIRLEY AND HIS BROTHER-IN-LAW, BENNY BAKER, ESCORTED MR. SIMPSON UP TO HIS ROOM AND HELPED HIM UNDRESS ON JUNE 13TH? ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

# 146 A:

IS THAT WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO TESTIFY TO, SIR?

KEY QUOTE

# 147 THE COURT:

ARE ANY OF THOSE PERSONS IN THE COURTROOM?

# 148 MR. DOUGLAS:

NO, YOUR HONOR. THEY'RE OUTSIDE.

# 149 RON SHIPP:

THAT IS NOT CORRECT. THAT IS NOT CORRECT.

# 150 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: MY STATEMENT IS NOT CORRECT?

# 151 A:

IT IS NOT CORRECT.

# 152 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, MAY WE HAVE JUST ONE MOMENT? MAY WE APPROACH THE SIDE?

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Ron Shipp

THIS IS SAD, O.J., BUT NO. THIS IS REALLY SAD.

Shipp breaks courtroom protocol by directly addressing the defendant, prompting Judge Ito to instruct the jury to disregard it and admonish Shipp. The outburst reveals the emotional weight Shipp carries and underscores the personal betrayal he feels in testifying against a close friend.

Ron Shipp

I SAID, 'MARK, DID O.J. KILL NICOLE?'

Shipp reveals that his first question to Fuhrman when he called the Simpson residence on the morning of June 13th was point-blank whether OJ did it — establishing both the gravity of his suspicions that morning and Fuhrman's early presence at the home.

Ron Shipp

IS THAT WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO TESTIFY TO, SIR?

Shipp's frustrated response to Douglas's suggestion that Shirley Simpson and Benny Baker will contradict his account — revealing he is aware of the defense's witness lineup and is pushing back on being set up for impeachment.

Ron Shipp

I WAS SO SHAKEN UP. I REMEMBER I WALKED BY MYSELF AND I SAT IN THE CAR AND I WAS BY MYSELF. I REMEMBER THAT BECAUSE I WAS VERY TRIPPED OUT OVER ALL OF THIS.

Shipp's emotional description of his own state of mind on June 13th, used to rebut Douglas's suggestion that he walked Cathy Randa to her car — and inadvertently conveying the chaos and grief of that day.

Evidence (4)

Exhibit 1000

A written statement attributed to 'Leo' (Shipp's nickname), referenced by Douglas to pin down whether Shipp told investigators that Simpson said police found blood in the car

discussed

Informal

The bloody glove found on Simpson's property — central to the bedroom conversation Shipp describes

discussed

Informal

A cap allegedly found by police, which Shipp says Simpson mentioned alongside the glove

discussed

Informal

Blood found in Simpson's car and house, which Shipp claims Simpson disclosed to him

discussed

Notable Exchanges (3)

Carl Douglas•Ron Shipp

Douglas asks whether Shipp took Simpson behind the garage to show him where the glove was found — implying Shipp planted the information rather than received it. Shipp responds by turning to OJ and saying 'This is sad, O.J., but no. This is really sad,' breaking courtroom decorum and prompting a judicial admonishment.

heated

Carl Douglas•Ron Shipp

Douglas walks through Simpson's exhaustion on June 13th — red-eye to Chicago, red-eye back, handcuffed, interrogated at Parker Center — to argue Simpson was too depleted to have had the bedroom conversation Shipp describes. Shipp denies Simpson went to bed at 8:00–8:15, and denies that Shirley and Benny Baker helped undress him.

strategic

Carl Douglas•Ron Shipp

Douglas challenges Shipp on each specific detail of what Simpson allegedly disclosed — the cap, blood in the car, blood in the house — with a series of 'Isn't it true' denials. Shipp holds firm on all points.

confrontational

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Ron Shipp

Anticipated impeachment by contradiction — forthcoming witnesses

Douglas implies that Shirley Simpson and Benny Baker will testify that they escorted OJ to bed and helped him undress around 8:00–8:15 PM on June 13th, contradicting Shipp's version of an extended bedroom conversation later that evening.

⚔ Ron Shipp

Theory reversal — witness as source of information

Douglas suggests Shipp was the one who told Simpson about the glove (possibly by taking him to the garage to see where it was found), not the other way around — undermining the prosecution's use of Shipp's testimony as evidence of Simpson's consciousness of guilt.

⚔ Ron Shipp

Memory reliability / confusion of events

Douglas highlights that Shipp was present for an entire week and admits days have 'run into each other,' weakening the precision of his June 13th-specific recollections.

Witness Demeanor

Witness loses train of thought mid-questioning and apologizes: 'I AM SORRY. I AM SORRY. I LOST MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT.'

Witness directly addresses the defendant in open court, prompting judicial admonishment.

Witness responds to a leading question with a rhetorical counter-question: 'IS THAT WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO TESTIFY TO, SIR?'

Objections

3 objections (1 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 4552 • 152 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103