Denise Brown Deposition — Day 1

📄 Denise Brown Deposition — Day 1

Address:

C:\DEPT103\DEPOSITIONS\DENISE-BROWN\DAY-1.DOC

◀ Christian Reichardt Day 2 Fred Goldman Day 1 ▶

Deposition of Denise Brown

Day: 1 • Date: Thursday, May 2, 1996 • Examinations: 1 • Utterances: 4,542

1 Direct examination of Denise Brown by John Kelly

Examiner: John Kelly • Type: direct • 4542 utterances

📜 John Kelly 🛡️ Phillip Baker 🛡️ Robert Baker 📜 Daniel Petrocelli

Phillip Baker (defense) deposes Denise Brown, Nicole's older sister, in a combative session where John Kelly (Brown estate counsel) instructs her not to answer dozens of questions about her income, lectures, and the Nicole Brown Simpson Foundation. The substantive core of the deposition centers on a violent incident at the Rockingham estate following dinner at La Cantina restaurant, where Denise witnessed OJ throw pictures down the stairs, hurl Nicole's clothes at her, physically throw Nicole, Ed (Denise's then-boyfriend), and Denise herself out of the house — the only physical act of violence Denise personally witnessed. The defense also surfaces a significant prior inconsistent statement: Denise told the New York Times in summer 1994 that she did not believe Nicole was a battered woman, which Baker uses to undercut her credibility on the La Cantina incident.

# 1 A:

BREWER 444 South Flower Street, Thirty-First Floor

Los Angeles, California 90071

For Plaintiff Fredric Goldman: MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & RNUPP BY DANIEL M. PETROCELLI 11377 West Olympic Boulevard Los Angeles, California 90064-1683

For Plaintiff Louis H. Brown as Executor and Personal Representative of the Estate of Nicole Brown Simpson: JOHN QUINLAN KELLY 330 Madison Avenue New York, New York 10017-5090

For Defendant Orenthal James Simpson: BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER BY ROBERT C. BAKER and PHILLIP

# 2 A:

BAKER 2850 Ocean Park Boulevard, Suite 300 Santa Monica, California 90405-2936

I N D E X

WITNESS: DENISE BROWN

EXAMINATION BY:

MR. PHILLIP BAKER

DEFENSE DESCRIPTION

1022 Notice of Taking Deposition of Denise Brown

DENISE BROWN, a witness herein, having been sworn, testifies as follows:

-EXAMINATION-

# 3 Q:

Would you please state and spell your name for the record, Ms. Brown.

# 4 A:

Denise Brown, D-e-n-i-s-e B-r-o-w-n.

# 5 Q:

Have you ever had your deposition taken before?

# 6 A:

Yes.

# 7 Q:

How many times?

# 8 A:

Once.

# 9 Q:

Where?

# 10 A:

Santa An

# 11 Q:

For what?

# 12 A:

For a personal injury case.

# 13 Q:

Were you a plaintiff?

# 14 A:

Yes.

# 15 Q:

Against whom?

# 16 A:

Enterprise Rent-A-Car.

# 17 Q:

Pardon me?

# 18 A:

Enterprise Rent-A-Car.

# 19 JOHN KELLY:

Slow down.

# 20 Q:

When did that case commence?

# 21 A:

1989.

# 22 Q:

Why were you suing them?

# 23 A:

Car accident.

# 24 Q:

You were hit by someone driving an Enterprise rent-a-car?

# 25 A:

Yes.

# 26 Q:

Who was the driver?

# 27 A:

Oh --

# 28 JOHN KELLY:

If you know.

# 29 DENISE BROWN:

I don't recall his name.

# 30 Q:

Where was the accident?

# 31 A:

On the way to Corona Del Mar.

# 32 Q:

What time of night?

# 33 A:

It was about 5:00 p.m., 6:00 p.m.

# 34 Q:

Did it ever go to trial?

# 35 A:

Yes.

# 36 Q:

Was a verdict rendered?

# 37 A:

Yes.

# 38 Q:

What was the verdict?

# 39 A:

It was their fault. They had to pay.

# 40 Q:

How much?

# 41 A:

Well, I got awarded 104-, 104,000.

# 42 Q:

Who was your lawyer?

# 43 JOHN KELLY:

If you know.

# 44 DENISE BROWN:

I've forgot his name. Sorry.

# 45 Q:

Did he practice in Corona Del Mar?

# 46 A:

No. Santa An

# 47 Q:

Was the case tried in Orange County Superior Court?

# 48 A:

I don't know if it was Superior Court. It was a courthouse.

# 49 Q:

On Civic Center Drive? Yes, in Santa An

# 50 A:

Yes.

# 51 Q:

When did it go to trial?

# 52 A:

'94. 1994.

# 53 Q:

What month?

# 54 A:

Oh, gosh. It was supposed to be June l3th, and it went -- I think in October.

# 55 Q:

What injuries did you sustain as a result of the car accident?

# 56 A:

Back injury, lower back.

# 57 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 58 Q:

What was the injury to your lower back?

# 59 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that. You've got enough.

# 60 PHILLIP BAKER:

You are objecting on what grounds?

# 61 JOHN KELLY:

Totally irrelevant.

# 62 Q:

So you understand the deposition process, don't you, Ms. Brown?

# 63 A:

I think so.

# 64 Q:

You understand that you are under penalty of perjury?

# 65 A:

I think so.

# 66 Q:

You understand that you have to testify truthfully just like you were in a court of law?

# 67 A:

Yes.

# 68 Q:

You understand the court reporter will be taking down everything that is said here today?

# 69 A:

Yes.

# 70 Q:

It will be printed up in a transcript form, and you'll have the opportunity to review that.

# 71 A:

Yes.

# 72 Q:

You can make any changes you like, but you can be assured we will comment on those changes to embarrass you and discredit you. Do you understand that?

KEY QUOTE

# 73 A:

Yes.

# 74 Q:

Where do you presently live?

# 75 JOHN KELLY:

We will provide that in writing just like we have done with every other witness.

# 76 Q:

Why don't you write it down.

# 77 (Indicating.)

# 78 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Do you have the next exhibit in order for the defense?

# 79 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 80 Q:

Is this a home or condominium?

# 81 A:

This is a townhome.

# 82 Q:

Do you own it?

# 83 A:

No.

# 84 Q:

Who owns it?

# 85 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 86 Q:

Do you rent it?

# 87 A:

Yes.

# 88 Q:

How much do you pay a month?

# 89 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 90 PHILLIP BAKER:

Are you objecting on relevance grounds?

# 91 JOHN KELLY:

Yeah.

# 92 Q:

When did you move into this townhome?

# 93 A:

December 15th, 1995.

# 94 Q:

Where did you live before that?

# 95 A:

Dana Point.

# 96 Q:

What is the address?

# 97 A:

[Address deleted.]

# 98 Q:

Is that with your family?

# 99 A:

Yes.

# 100 Q:

How long did you live there?

# 101 A:

On and off since 1974.

# 102 Q:

What do you presently do for a living?

# 103 A:

a lecturer.

# 104 Q:

When is the last time you lectured?

# 105 A:

I just got back last Saturday actually.

# 106 Q:

Where did you lecture?

# 107 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 108 PHILLIP BAKER:

Are you instructing her not to answer that?

# 109 JOHN KELLY:

Yeah.

# 110 PHILLIP BAKER:

On what grounds?

# 111 JOHN KELLY:

Totally irrelevant. You know what she does for a living. That's all you need to know right now. Where she has lectured, what she lectured on has absolutely nothing to do with whether your client is liable for these murders or not.

# 112 ROBERT BAKER:

Really, really. Maybe you better learn a little California law instead of New York law.

# 113 JOHN KELLY:

Baker California law or regular California law?

# 114 ROBERT BAKER:

You are going to be back here on all of these depos.

# 115 JOHN KELLY:

Great. Always a pleasure to see you, Mr. Baker.

# 116 ROBERT BAKER:

This is an outrage.

# 117 Q:

Did you lecture about O.J. Simpson?

# 118 A:

No.

# 119 Q:

O.J. Simpson's name was never mentioned?

# 120 A:

No.

# 121 Q:

What was the topic of the lecture?

# 122 DENISE BROWN:

Don't answer?

# 123 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 124 Q:

Did you talk about Nicole Simpson?

# 125 A:

Nicole Brown.

# 126 Q:

Did you talk about her?

# 127 A:

Yes.

# 128 Q:

What did you say about her?

# 129 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that. You're not going to go through every lecture she has ever given.

# 130 PHILLIP BAKER:

I certainly am. If she has made comments on these cases, it is certainly relevant.

# 131 JOHN KELLY:

Commenting on her sister is not commenting on this case. Her sister was here long before this case was here.

# 132 PHILLIP BAKER:

It relates to her sister.

# 133 JOHN KELLY:

It relates to her -- I understand that. You asked if it had anything to do with Mr. Simpson. If you want to ask if it had anything to do with this case, ask her that.

# 134 ROBERT BAKER:

We don't need your advice on how to ask questions. We will ask the questions we want.

# 135 JOHN KELLY:

She will not answer what I tell her not to.

# 136 Q:

Did it talk about the civil case at all?

# 137 A:

No.

# 138 Q:

Did it talk about the criminal case?

# 139 A:

No.

# 140 Q:

Did it talk about your prior relationship with Nicole Simpson?

# 141 A:

Not really.

# 142 Q:

What did it relate to?

# 143 A:

Domestic violence.

# 144 Q:

With Nicole Simpson?

# 145 A:

Not personally, no.

# 146 Q:

How was Nicole Simpson discussed?

# 147 A:

How wonderful of a mother she was, what a great human being she was. That she would do anything for anybody, that she was a -- Her kids were her life. How her kids meant everything to her.

# 148 Q:

And --

# 149 A:

And that she's gone, and that's it.

# 150 Q:

What do you mean by "That's it"?

# 151 A:

That's all I said about her.

# 152 Q:

Where did this lecture take place?

# 153 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 154 Q:

Was it tape-recorded?

# 155 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 156 Q:

Was it video-recorded?

# 157 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 158 Q:

When was the last lecture you made prior to this lecture last Saturday?

# 159 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 160 Q:

How many lectures have you made in the last month?

# 161 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 162 Q:

How many lectures have you made in the last year?

# 163 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 164 Q:

How much do you get paid for each lecture?

# 165 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 166 Q:

Is lecturing your only source of income presently?

# 167 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 168 Q:

Do you work for the Nicole Brown Simpson Fund?

# 169 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 170 Q:

What is your role within the Nicole Brown Simpson Fund?

# 171 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 172 Q:

Where is the Nicole Brown Simpson Fund located?

# 173 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 174 Q:

And are you following all your lawyer's objections?

# 175 A:

I am listening to what he's telling me to do.

# 176 Q:

If he instructs you not to answer, you will not answer; true?

# 177 A:

True.

# 178 Q:

When was the Nicole Brown Simpson Fund created?

# 179 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 180 Q:

Who worked for the Nicole Brown Simpson Fund?

# 181 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 182 Q:

It is Nicole Brown Simpson Fund, is that the Nicole Brown Fund? KELLY: Don't answer.

# 183 Q:

Is it not true that the Nicole Brown Simpson Fund has operating expenses of 40 percent relating to revenues?

# 184 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 185 Q:

Who is Jeff Noebel?

# 186 A:

Jeff Noebel? A man who lives in Texas.

# 187 Q:

Have you ever worked with him?

# 188 A:

Yes. He was related to the foundation.

# 189 Q:

What did he do with the foundation?

# 190 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 191 Q:

Was he head of the foundation?

# 192 ROBERT BAKER:

Well, just a minute. Are all of your objections on relevance grounds?

# 193 JOHN KELLY:

Yes. She is not answering any questions about the foundation or her employment. If you want to get to something that has anything to do with the facts and circumstances of these murders, the events leading up to them, I will let her answer it, or her relationship with your client.

# 194 ROBERT BAKER:

I bet the shortest book I ever read was "John Quinlan Kelly on Evidence."

# 195 PHILLIP BAKER:

It goes directly to evidence, bias. If she earns income as a result of these crimes, we ought to know about it.

# 196 Q:

Do you get a salary from the foundation?

# 197 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 198 Q:

Was Jeff Noebel in any way related to the foundation?

# 199 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 200 Q:

In what capacity was Jeff Noebel related to the foundation?

# 201 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 202 Q:

You understand Jeff Noebel has a criminal record, do you not?

# 203 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 204 Q:

You do understand that Jeff Noebel served time for bank fraud, do you not?

# 205 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 206 Q:

How many employees work for the foundation?

# 207 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 208 Q:

Is it true that only one employee is associated with the foundation?

# 209 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 210 Q:

Does the foundation provide grants?

# 211 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 212 Q:

Does it provide donations?

# 213 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 214 PHILLIP BAKER:

What are you trying to hide, Mr. Kelly?

# 215 JOHN KELLY:

I am not trying to hide. I am trying to get a deposition that might be the least bit relevant.

# 216 ROBERT BAKER:

I am trying to get the court, and we are going to go over to the court this morning. Go ahead.

# 217 JOHN KELLY:

Why don't we, before he goes ahead, see if you get the court first, and we can cut this short.

# 218 Q:

Have you ever read the bylaws of the foundation?

# 219 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 220 Q:

Do you understand Brown family members receive a salary from the foundation?

# 221 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 222 Q:

Is there any criteria whatsoever for the way grants or donations are provided from the foundation?

# 223 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 224 Q:

Have you ever been arrested, Ms. Brown?

# 225 A:

Yes.

# 226 Q:

How many times?

# 227 A:

Twice.

# 228 Q:

For?

# 229 A:

DUI.

# 230 Q:

Both for driving under the influence?

# 231 A:

Yes.

# 232 Q:

When was the first one?

# 233 A:

I think '92.

# 234 Q:

By the way, what is the rent at the foundation?

# 235 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 236 Q:

In 1992 you were arrested for driving under the influence?

# 237 A:

Yes.

# 238 Q:

Where did this occur?

# 239 A:

Laguna Niguel, Orange County.

# 240 Q:

Where were you driving?

# 241 A:

Home.

# 242 Q:

From?

# 243 A:

Dropping off some friends.

# 244 Q:

Where did you drop them off?

# 245 A:

At their homes.

# 246 Q:

Where?

# 247 A:

Laguna Niguel.

# 248 Q:

Where in Laguna Niguel?

# 249 A:

I don't know the exact address.

# 250 Q:

Where had you been that night?

# 251 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 252 Q:

What was your blood alcohol level in 1992 when you were arrested for driving under the influence?

# 253 JOHN KELLY:

If you know. Actually don't answer it.

# 254 PHILLIP BAKER:

Goes to her credibility.

# 255 Q:

Were you found guilty of that crime?

# 256 A:

Yes.

# 257 JOHN KELLY:

I'm sorry. what was the last question?

# 258 PHILLIP BAKER:

"Were you found guilty of that crime?" And she said, "Yes."

# 259 JOHN KELLY:

Thank you.

# 260 ROBERT BAKER:

You let one through.

# 261 JOHN KELLY:

He's very good at timing our discussions here.

# 262 Q:

Did it go to trial?

# 263 A:

No.

# 264 Q:

Did you plead guilty?

# 265 A:

Yes.

# 266 Q:

What was your sentence?

# 267 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 268 Q:

Who was your lawyer?

# 269 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 270 Q:

When was the next time you were arrested for driving under the influence?

# 271 A:

January 1994.

# 272 Q:

Where were you coming from?

# 273 A:

Los Angeles.

# 274 Q:

Where in Los Angeles?

# 275 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 276 Q:

Did --

# 277 ROBERT BAKER:

Again, these are relevance; is that true?

# 278 JOHN KELLY:

Yes. If you want to ask her whether she has convictions, she will tell you whether or not and what they are for.

# 279 Q:

Did you see Nicole Brown that night in January of 1994?

# 280 A:

No.

# 281 Q:

Who were you with? KELLY: Don't answer it.

# 282 Q:

Did you see Faye Resnick that night?

# 283 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 284 Q:

Did you see Ron Shipp that night?

# 285 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 286 Q:

Who was in the car when you were pulled over?

# 287 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

MR. PHILLIP BAKER

# 288 Q:

Where were you pulled over?

# 289 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 290 PHILLIP BAKER:

Were you found guilty?

# 291 A:

I'm sorry?

# 292 Q:

Were you found guilty in 1994?

# 293 A:

Yes.

# 294 Q:

What was your blood alcohol level?

# 295 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 296 Q:

Did you plead guilty or did it go to trial?

# 297 A:

Pled guilty.

# 298 Q:

What was your sentence?

# 299 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 300 Q:

What court did you plead guilty in?

# 301 A:

Pomon

# 302 Q:

Do you remember your lawyer?

# 303 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 304 Q:

What court did you plead guilty for the 1992 incident?

# 305 JOHN KELLY:

If you know.

# 306 DENISE BROWN:

South Court.

# 307 Q:

Where is that?

# 308 A:

Orange County.

# 309 Q:

Have you ever been arrested on any other occasion other than 1992 and 1994?

# 310 A:

No.

# 311 Q:

Do you have any other source of income other than as a lecturer or as a salaried employee from the Nicole Brown Foundation?

# 312 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 313 Q:

Have you ever made any money from tabloids?

# 314 JOHN KELLY:

Excuse me, Phil.

# 315 (Witness and counsel confer off the record.)

# 316 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry. Next question.

# 317 PHILLIP BAKER:

Are you keeping your objection?

# 318 JOHN KELLY:

Yes.

# 319 Q:

Have you ever made any money from tabloids?

# 320 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 321 Q:

Have you ever sold any story to any tabloid?

# 322 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 323 Q:

Have you ever been paid for any television appearance?

# 324 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 325 Q:

Have you ever been paid for any newsprint interview?

# 326 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 327 Q:

Have you ever been -- What income have you derived whatsoever from the crimes of June 12, 1994?

# 328 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 329 Q:

Do you have a book deal, Ms. Brown?

# 330 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 331 PHILLIP BAKER:

Again, relevance objections?

# 332 JOHN KELLY:

Same objection.

# 333 PHILLIP BAKER:

Goes directly to bias, Mr. Kelly.

# 334 JOHN KELLY:

I think in your dad's evidence book it might. Everywhere else it doesn't. Relevance. If you want to start asking any questions that have anything to do with your client's liability in these things, fine.

# 335 Q:

Do you have a book deal, Ms. Brown?

# 336 Q:

In all the statements you have made to media, have you always been truthful and honest?

# 337 A:

Yes.

# 338 Q:

That includes every interview you've conducted?

# 339 A:

Yes.

# 340 Q:

And every time you've testified in any capacity, you've testified truthfully and honestly; true?

# 341 JOHN KELLY:

Forever?

# 342 PHILLIP BAKER:

Forever.

# 343 JOHN KELLY:

Okay.

# 344 DENISE BROWN:

Yes.

# 345 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 346 Q:

Anytime you have lectured, you've testified truthfully or spoken truthfully?

# 347 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that. Want to rephrase the question?

# 348 Q:

Anytime you have lectured, have you spoken truthfully?

# 349 JOHN KELLY:

Lecture is not testifying.

# 350 PHILLIP BAKER:

I rephrased it.

# 351 JOHN KELLY:

I apologize.

# 352 PHILLIP BAKER:

Can you read the question back.

# 353 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 354 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that question.

# 355 PHILLIP BAKER:

You are instructing her not to answer that question?

# 356 JOHN KELLY:

I think it's a horrible question. How can you lecture truthfully or falsely when you lecture?

# 357 PHILLIP BAKER:

You don't understand that, Mr. Kelly?

# 358 JOHN KELLY:

No, I don't. I'm just one of these dumb lawyers from New York. don't understand these sophisticated --

# 359 ROBERT BAKER:

That's redundant.

# 360 Q:

Any public appearance you have made, you have spoken honestly?

# 361 JOHN KELLY:

There you go. That's better.

# 362 Q:

Correct?

# 363 A:

Correct.

# 364 Q:

Have you ever met with Michael Viner, V-i-n-e-r?

# 365 A:

I don't know who he is.

# 366 Q:

Prior to June 12, 1994, did you ever borrow any money from O.J. Simpson?

# 367 JOHN KELLY:

What was the date?

# 368 PHILLIP BAKER:

June 12, 1994.

# 369 JOHN KELLY:

Okay.

# 370 DENISE BROWN:

Could you repeat it.

# 371 Q:

Did you ever borrow any money from O.J. Simpson?

# 372 A:

No.

# 373 Q:

Did your family ever borrow any money from O.J. Simpson?

# 374 JOHN KELLY:

That you know of.

# 375 DENISE BROWN:

You would have to ask them.

# 376 Q:

You don't know of any?

# 377 A:

No.

# 378 Q:

Have you ever reviewed any documents prior to having your deposition taken today?

# 379 JOHN KELLY:

Let him finish the question.

# 380 DENISE BROWN:

I didn't hear.

# 381 Q:

Have you ever reviewed any documents whatsoever prior to having your deposition taken today?

# 382 A:

No.

# 383 Q:

Did you bring any documents with you?

# 384 A:

No.

# 385 Q:

Have you ever seen the subpoena to your deposition? (Indicating.) We will attach this as the next exhibit.

# 386 A:

No.

# 387 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

1022?

# 388 THE REPORTER:

Yes. That will be 1022.

# 389 Q:

So were you ever told you were requested to bring documents to this deposition?

# 390 A:

No.

# 391 Q:

And you obviously didn't; true?

# 392 A:

True.

# 393 Q:

Do you have any documents in your possession relating to O.J. Simpson?

# 394 JOHN KELLY:

Could we get a little more specific, Phil, in terms of any documents relating to O.J. Simpson.

# 395 PHILLIP BAKER:

That is what the deposition subpoena reads, and there were no objections submitted on your behalf.

# 396 Q:

Any documents relating to O.J. Simpson in your possession?

# 397 A:

No.

# 398 Q:

Any documents in your possession relating to Nicole Brown?

# 399 A:

No.

# 400 Q:

Any documents in your possession relating to Ron Goldman?

# 401 A:

No.

# 402 Q:

Had you ever met Ron Goldman prior to June 12th, 1994?

# 403 A:

No.

# 404 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

What was the answer?

# 405 PHILLIP BAKER:

"No."

# 406 Q:

Had you ever heard about him, heard his name?

# 407 JOHN KELLY:

At what point?

# 408 PHILLIP BAKER:

Prior to June 12th, 1994.

# 409 DENISE BROWN:

No.

# 410 Q:

Did you ever travel with O.J. Simpson, ever?

# 411 A:

Yes.

# 412 Q:

When?

# 413 A:

When? Christmastime.

# 414 Q:

Christmastime when?

# 415 A:

I don't remember the year.

# 416 Q:

Before 1993?

# 417 A:

Yes.

# 418 Q:

Before 1991?

# 419 A:

You know what, I don't remember the dates.

# 420 Q:

Do you know where you traveled to?

# 421 A:

Hawaii.

# 422 Q:

Where did you stay?

# 423 A:

The Westin Kauai.

# 424 Q:

Who paid for that trip?

# 425 A:

I think we did. Our family.

# 426 JOHN KELLY:

Only if you know.

# 427 Q:

Did you pay for that trip, you personally?

# 428 A:

I don't remember.

# 429 Q:

Any other trips that you took with O.J. Simpson?

# 430 A:

Yes.

# 431 Q:

When was the most recent one?

# 432 A:

Gosh, I don't remember. It's been awhile.

# 433 Q:

In 1994?

# 434 A:

1994? No.

# 435 Q:

1993?

# 436 (Shakes head in the negative.)

# 437 Q:

Where did you go on the most recent trip?

# 438 A:

I don't remember.

# 439 Q:

No idea?

# 440 A:

Possibly New York.

# 441 Q:

Was Nicole Brown with you?

# 442 A:

She was there, yes.

# 443 (Interruption in proceedings.)

# 444 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Off the record.

# 445 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 446 PHILLIP BAKER:

What was the last question and answer?

# 447 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 448 Q:

Did she travel with you?

# 449 A:

No.

# 450 Q:

She was staying in New York?

# 451 A:

Yes.

# 452 Q:

And when was this, do you recall? 1992? 1993?

# 453 A:

Oh, I think it was before that.

# 454 Q:

Where did you stay?

# 455 A:

At the Ritz Carlton.

# 456 Q:

Where is that located?

# 457 A:

In New York City.

# 458 Q:

Where was Nicole staying?

# 459 A:

In their apartment.

# 460 Q:

Was it when they were married?

# 461 A:

I think so, yes.

# 462 Q:

That is the most recent trip you can recall taking --

# 463 A:

Yes.

# 464 Q:

-- with O.J. Simpson?

# 465 A:

(Nods head in the affirmative.) That I remember.

# 466 Q:

Did you travel at all in 1994?

# 467 JOHN KELLY:

Prior to June 12th or anytime?

# 468 PHILLIP BAKER:

Anytime.

# 469 DENISE BROWN:

Yes.

# 470 Q:

Where?

# 471 A:

To New York.

# 472 Q:

Anywhere else?

# 473 A:

I think that was it.

# 474 Q:

Did you travel in the winter or spring of 1994?

# 475 A:

It was in the winter.

# 476 Q:

This was before the death on June 12th, 1994; true?

# 477 A:

Well --

# 478 ROBERT BAKER:

Be '93, Phil.

# 479 DENISE BROWN:

It was after.

# 480 PHILLIP BAKER:

Okay.

# 481 Q:

Why did you travel to New York?

# 482 A:

Announce the foundation.

# 483 Q:

Where did you announce that?

# 484 A:

In New York City.

# 485 Q:

Did you make any public appearances other than this announcement?

# 486 A:

No.

# 487 Q:

Did you make any -- grant any media interviews?

# 488 A:

The media was there.

# 489 Q:

Did you make any appearances on any television shows during this trip to New York?

# 490 A:

No.

# 491 Q:

How did you get there?

# 492 A:

Flew.

# 493 Q:

Did you pay for that ticket?

# 494 A:

Yes.

# 495 Q:

Where did you stay?

# 496 A:

Where did I stay? Well, I forget the name of the hotel.

# 497 Q:

You conducted no interviews on this trip?

# 498 A:

Well, I announced the foundation.

# 499 Q:

But you didn't go on TV and conduct a private interview with a news show or anything along those -- of that nature?

# 500 A:

Not on that trip, no.

# 501 Q:

When is the first time you met O.J. Simpson?

# 502 A:

1977, '78. When we first met.

# 503 Q:

Where did you meet him?

# 504 A:

Excuse me?

# 505 Q:

Where did you meet him?

# 506 A:

In Buffalo.

# 507 Q:

What were you doing there?

# 508 A:

Nicole invited us up.

# 509 Q:

Who is "us"?

# 510 A:

My sister Dominique and I.

# 511 Q:

How long were you there?

# 512 A:

For a weekend.

# 513 Q:

Were you present at their wedding?

# 514 A:

Yes.

# 515 Q:

Did you ever object to Nicole dating O.J. prior to their wedding?

# 516 A:

Did I ever object to it?

# 517 Q:

Yes.

# 518 A:

I didn't --

# 519 JOHN KELLY:

To anybody?

# 520 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 521 DENISE BROWN:

I didn't understand why she would want to go out with a guy like that.

KEY QUOTE

# 522 Q:

You say "a guy like that." What do you mean?

# 523 A:

Well, the first time I ever met O.J. Simpson, Nicole was in tears.

# 524 Q:

Where was that?

# 525 A:

In Buffalo.

# 526 Q:

Where in Buffalo?

# 527 A:

At their house.

# 528 JOHN KELLY:

Well --

# 529 Q:

Why was she in tears?

# 530 A:

Because he said she humiliated him.

# 531 Q:

He said she humiliated him?

# 532 A:

O.J. said Nicole had humiliated him.

# 533 Q:

O.J. told you this?

# 534 A:

I was listening. I was standing right there.

# 535 Q:

Where were you, in what room?

# 536 A:

When Nicole was in tears, we were upstairs in the bedroom.

# 537 Q:

When O.J. said this, who was else there?

# 538 A:

Myself, Nicole, O.J.

# 539 A:

Anyone else?

# 540 Q:

Possibly my sister. I don't know.

# 541 A:

How long did they date before they were married?

# 542 JOHN KELLY:

Who is "they"?

# 543 PHILLIP BAKER:

Nicole and O.J.

# 544 DENISE BROWN:

8 years, 7 or 8 years.

# 545 Q:

Did you ever tell her at all that you objected to them getting married?

# 546 A:

No.

# 547 Q:

Did you ever tell anyone that you objected to them getting married?

# 548 A:

No.

# 549 Q:

Did you ever receive any money from O.J. Simpson or any gifts from O.J. Simpson prior to their marriage?

# 550 A:

No money.

# 551 Q:

Gifts?

# 552 A:

Christmas presents.

# 553 Q:

Do you recall any of them?

# 554 A:

No.

# 555 Q:

Have you ever been to O.J.'s house on Rockingham?

# 556 A:

Yes.

# 557 Q:

How many times would you estimate?

# 558 A:

Oh, many times.

# 559 Q:

When was the last time?

# 560 A:

Oh, gosh. I don't remember.

# 561 Q:

Was it in 1994?

# 562 A:

No.

# 563 Q:

1993?

# 564 A:

Possibly.

# 565 Q:

Did you ever see O.J. hit Nicole?

# 566 A:

Yes.

# 567 Q:

When?

# 568 A:

In -- I don't know the date.

# 569 Q:

Okay. Give me your best estimate of the time?

# 570 A:

That I don't remember.

# 571 Q:

How many times did you see him hit her?

# 572 A:

Once.

# 573 Q:

Where was it?

# 574 A:

At the house on Rockingham.

# 575 Q:

What was the year?

# 576 A:

That I don't remember.

# 577 Q:

Before 1992?

# 578 A:

Yeah, it was before.

# 579 Q:

Was if before 1990?

# 580 A:

See, I don't remember.

# 581 Q:

Were they married?

# 582 A:

I don't remember that either.

# 583 Q:

Do you remember if Justin or Sydney were born?

# 584 A:

I don't recall.

# 585 Q:

What time of day did it occur?

# 586 A:

In the evening.

# 587 Q:

Where had you gone prior to this incident?

# 588 A:

Out to dinner.

# 589 Q:

Where?

# 590 A:

La Cantina restaurant.

# 591 Q:

Is that in Venice?

# 592 A:

It's up here in L.

# 593 A:

someplace.

# 594 Q:

Who were you with?

# 595 A:

Myself, O.J., Nicole and Ed [Name Deleted].

# 596 Q:

Had you all gone to dinner?

# 597 A:

Yes.

# 598 Q:

Had you all been drinking?

# 599 A:

Yes.

# 600 Q:

How much alcohol do you believe that you drank?

# 601 A:

We had --

# 602 JOHN KELLY:

She personally?

# 603 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 604 JOHN KELLY:

Okay.

# 605 DENISE BROWN:

We had a few drinks.

# 606 Q:

You mean what, more than 4?

# 607 A:

Probably not more than 4.

# 608 Q:

About 4 drinks?

# 609 A:

Probably.

# 610 Q:

Did Ed have any drinks?

# 611 A:

Yes.

# 612 Q:

How many did he have?

# 613 A:

I don't recall.

# 614 Q:

Who drove to La Cantina that night?

# 615 A:

Oh, gosh. I don't remember. Possibly O.J.

# 616 Q:

You have no recollection what year this occurred?

# 617 A:

Not offhand, no.

# 618 Q:

When you were first interviewed by the police officers about Nicole, did you mention this incident?

# 619 JOHN KELLY:

Can we put a date on that?

# 620 PHILLIP BAKER:

When she was first interviewed by the police officers following June 12, 1994.

# 621 Q:

Did you mention this incident?

# 622 A:

Yes.

# 623 Q:

The very first time?

# 624 A:

I --

# 625 Q:

The very first time you were interviewed by police officers following June 12, 1994, you mentioned this incident following La Cantina restaurant?

# 626 A:

The first time I was ever interviewed.

# 627 Q:

You did mention it?

# 628 A:

Yes.

# 629 Q:

You granted an interview with the New York Times in the summer of 1994, did you not?

# 630 A:

I don't know. I don't remember.

# 631 Q:

Do you recall telling the New York Times you didn't believe Nicole was a battered woman?

# 632 A:

Yes.

# 633 Q:

And you did say that?

# 634 A:

I did say that.

# 635 Q:

And this interview certainly occurred after the incident following La Cantina restaurant; true?

# 636 A:

Yes.

# 637 Q:

And you never mentioned the La Cantina restaurant incident to anyone until after June 12, 1994 true?

# 638 A:

Right.

# 639 Q:

Did you ever report this incident to the police?

# 640 A:

No.

# 641 Q:

Who did you tell about it? Did you tell any of your friends?

# 642 A:

It wasn't discussed.

# 643 Q:

Who is Ed [Name Deleted]?

# 644 A:

An ex-boyfriend.

# 645 Q:

How long did you date him?

# 646 A:

About a year.

# 647 Q:

When did you date him?

# 648 A:

That's what I can't remember.

# 649 Q:

Was it over 5 years ago?

# 650 A:

Uh-huh. Yeah.

# 651 Q:

Over 8 years ago?

# 652 A:

It was before I had my son.

# 653 Q:

Before?

# 654 A:

Before 1986.

# 655 Q:

So from 1986 to 1994, you never saw O.J. hit Nicole; true?

# 656 A:

Saw it? Physically?

# 657 Q:

Saw it.

# 658 A:

No.

# 659 Q:

Where were you when this incident occurred, what part of the room -- part of the house? I apologize.

# 660 JOHN KELLY:

We are talking about after La Cantina?

# 661 PHILLIP BAKER:

Right.

# 662 DENISE BROWN:

Where were we?

# 663 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 664 DENISE BROWN:

We were at his bar.

# 665 Q:

In the living room?

# 666 A:

I guess it's in the dining room.

# 667 Q:

Tell me --

# 668 ROBERT BAKER:

Family room?

# 669 DENISE BROWN:

Family room.

# 670 Q:

Family room? Tell me how you recall this incident occurring.

# 671 A:

We were sitting at the bar --

# 672 JOHN KELLY:

Excuse me. Just coughing.

# 673 DENISE BROWN:

We were sitting at the bar, and I had told O.J. that he took Nicole for granted. And after that, he said, "What? Me?" And I said, "Yeah." I said, "She does everything for you. You take her for granted."

# 674 JOHN KELLY:

Phil, hold on one second, please.

# 675 (Interruption in the proceedings.)

# 676 PHILLIP BAKER:

Okay.

# 677 Q:

You can continue.

# 678 A:

I'm sorry?

# 679 Q:

You can continue.

# 680 A:

So I told her -- told him that he was taking Nicole for granted. Nicole agreed with me. And he got very upset about that and he started screaming and yelling, and everybody started screaming. And then he proceeded to walk up the stairs, throw pictures down the -- down the staircase, went in and got Nicole's clothes and started throwing them down onto Nicole and down into the foyer. And then said, "Get out of my house." She said, "This is my house, too. I am not leaving." And he said, "Yes, you are." He threw her up against the door, picked her up, threw her up against the door, threw her out of the house. Picked me up -- picked Ed [Name Deleted] up first, tossed him out of the house, and then threw me out of the house, too.

# 681 Q:

Where were you sitting at the bar?

# 682 A:

Where was I sitting at the bar?

# 683 Q:

Yes. Were you at one of the stools?

# 684 JOHN KELLY:

If you were sitting.

# 685 DENISE BROWN:

Right in front of the bar (indicating).

# 686 Q:

Were you sitting at one of the stools?

# 687 A:

I was -- I was either sitting or standing next to a stool.

# 688 Q:

Where was Ed [Name Deleted]? Was he in the room?

# 689 A:

We were all four in the room.

# 690 Q:

Was he to the left or to the right of you?

# 691 A:

I don't remember.

# 692 Q:

Where was O.J.?

# 693 A:

Behind the bar.

# 694 Q:

Was he standing or sitting?

# 695 A:

I don't remember.

# 696 Q:

Did you have any drinks at the bar in O.J.'s house after you had returned from La Cantina?

# 697 A:

Probably.

# 698 Q:

How many?

# 699 A:

I don't recall.

# 700 Q:

What were you drinking that night?

# 701 A:

Margaritas.

# 702 Q:

Did you have a Margarita at Rockingham?

# 703 A:

I -- I don't think we made Margaritas. I don't remember.

# 704 Q:

What did you have to drink? You have no idea?

# 705 A:

I don't remember what we drank there.

# 706 Q:

You don't remember how many drinks you had?

# 707 A:

At --

# 708 Q:

At Rockingham after you returned from La Cantin

# 709 A:

No.

# 710 Q:

Were you drunk when this incident occurred?

# 711 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 712 ROBERT BAKER:

On what basis is that one?

# 713 JOHN KELLY:

She is not capable of concluding her own state of mind whether she is drunk or not. If you want to ask her all night long how many drinks she had over what period of time or whatever, you are more than welcome to, or ask her in her opinion was she --

# 714 PHILLIP BAKER:

On that night she was not capable of remembering what her state of mind is? Is that your objection?

# 715 JOHN KELLY:

I didn't say that. I said if you want to ask her in her opinion if she was --

# 716 Q:

In your opinion, were you drunk that night?

# 717 A:

No.

# 718 Q:

How many drinks does it usually take for you to get drunk, in your opinion?

# 719 A:

Well, I don't drink anymore.

# 720 Q:

That's not the question.

# 721 A:

So -- It varied.

# 722 Q:

From?

# 723 A:

It could take anywhere from, I don't know, 1 to 10.

# 724 Q:

So anywhere from 1 to 10 drinks could get you drunk?

# 725 A:

Not sloppily drunk, no.

# 726 Q:

But drunk, in your opinion?

# 727 A:

Probably over 5.

# 728 Q:

And is it your recollection that you had about 4 drinks at La Cantina?

# 729 A:

Around that.

# 730 Q:

And you may have had 1 or 2 drinks at Rockingham following your return from La Cantina?

# 731 A:

Probably.

# 732 Q:

It is your opinion you don't know whether you were drunk or not on the night --

# 733 A:

I was not drunk.

# 734 Q:

Was Ed [Name Deleted] drunk?

# 735 A:

I don't know.

# 736 Q:

Was Nicole drunk?

# 737 A:

I don't know.

# 738 Q:

Was O.J. drunk?

# 739 A:

I don't know.

# 740 Q:

What business of yours was it to tell O.J. how he was treating Nicole?

# 741 A:

Well, what business was it?

# 742 Q:

Yes.

# 743 A:

I felt like he should treat her a little nicer. I felt like he should be a little bit more respectful to her. And I think as a sister, I had a right to say it.

# 744 Q:

Did you always tell O.J. your thoughts about the way he was treating Nicole?

# 745 A:

Pretty much.

# 746 Q:

How many times?

# 747 A:

I don't recall.

# 748 Q:

Over 10?

# 749 A:

Probably.

# 750 Q:

Over 20?

# 751 A:

I don't know.

# 752 Q:

When was the last time you talked to O.J. was treating Nicole?

# 753 A:

Probably the morning that we found out she was murdered when I was on the phone with him.

# 754 Q:

Okay. What did you say to him?

# 755 A:

I said, "You are a murderer. You killed her. You always said you would."

KEY QUOTE

# 756 (Indicating.)

# 757 Q:

What time of day did you say this? Is this when the police called at 6:15?

# 758 JOHN KELLY:

Compound question.

# 759 Q:

When did you say this to the police, when they called in the morning?

# 760 A:

I told the police this, also.

# 761 Q:

Right. When did you -- I'm wrong. You are right, John. When did you talk to O.J. on June 13th?

# 762 A:

At about 7:15 in the morning when he called our house.

# 763 Q:

Had you talked to the police previous to that?

# 764 A:

Yes.

# 765 Q:

What time?

# 766 A:

At about 6:15, 6:30.

# 767 Q:

Is that when they first called to tell your family Nicole had been murdered?

# 768 A:

Yes.

# 769 Q:

Did you answer the phone when they called?

# 770 A:

No.

# 771 Q:

Who answered the phone?

# 772 A:

My mother.

# 773 Q:

What do you recall saying to the police on that first phone call?

# 774 A:

"He killed her. He always said he would kill her" --

KEY QUOTE

# 775 Q:

Uh-huh.

# 776 A:

-- "and he did."

# 777 Q:

That was the first phone cal1 you -- that the police made to your family's residence on that day; correct?

# 778 A:

Yes.

# 779 Q:

And did you take the phone away from your mother?

# 780 A:

Yes.

# 781 Q:

And that's the first thing you said to the police?

# 782 A:

Yes.

# 783 Q:

Did you say anything else in that phone call?

# 784 A:

"He killed her. He killed her. He always said he was going to kill her. He finally did it." And that was all I said.

# 785 Q:

Did O.J. Simpson ever tell you he was going to kill her.

# 786 A:

I had heard him say if he ever --

# 787 Q:

That's not the question.

# 788 A:

Sorry.

# 789 JOHN KELLY:

Listen to the question. Just answer the question. Just one second.

# 790 (witness and counsel confer off the record.)

# 791 JOHN KELLY:

Can we have the last question read back.

# 792 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 793 DENISE BROWN:

No.

# 794 Q:

So were you ever in a room where he uttered that?

# 795 JOHN KELLY:

I'm sorry. I didn't hear that.

# 796 Q:

Were you ever in a room where he uttered that?

# 797 A:

To Nicole?

# 798 Q:

You were in the same room?

# 799 A:

No.

# 800 Q:

So you never heard him say that; true?

# 801 A:

Not him.

# 802 Q:

So when you told the police he always said he would kill her, you had no independent knowledge that he said this; correct?

# 803 A:

He never told me.

# 804 Q:

So the answer is "true"; is that correct?

# 805 A:

Nicole told me.

# 806 JOHN KELLY:

Well, wait.

# 807 Q:

How many times did she tell you?

# 808 JOHN KELLY:

We have a "true" and "that's correct." Do we have an answer to that?

# 809 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 810 JOHN KELLY:

I am going to object to the form of the question in terms of independent knowledge. She stated that she hadn't heard him say that directly to her. That doesn't mean she didn't have other independent knowledge other than his statements directly to her. Do you want to rephrase it.

# 811 Q:

What time of night did this incident with Ed [Name Deleted], Nicole and you occur?

# 812 A:

Around midnight.

# 813 Q:

What time did you go to dinner?

# 814 A:

I don't recall.

# 815 Q:

Was it 7:00, 8:00 o'clock?

# 816 A:

Probably later.

# 817 Q:

Before you went to La Cantina, did you have any drinks over at Rockingham?

# 818 A:

Not that I remember, no.

# 819 Q:

Did you go to Rockingham before you went to La Cantina?

# 820 A:

Yes.

# 821 Q:

How long were you there?

# 822 A:

Oh, I don't remember. Not too long.

# 823 Q:

"Not too long" meaning how long?

# 824 JOHN KELLY:

Do you want to rephrase that, please.

# 825 Q:

15 minutes? a half hour? What do you mean by that?

# 826 A:

I don't remember.

# 827 Q:

How did you get to the Rockingham estate?

# 828 JOHN KELLY:

That night?

# 829 PHILLIP BAKER:

The night of the La Cantina incident.

# 830 DENISE BROWN:

Ed.

# 831 Q:

Ed picked you up?

# 832 A:

I was with Ed.

# 833 Q:

Did you have any drinks at all prior to going to dinner at La Cantina, if you recall?

# 834 A:

No.

# 835 Q:

You are sure?

# 836 A:

Not that I recall.

# 837 Q:

Now, what did Ed say that night?

# 838 JOHN KELLY:

At any time?

# 839 Q:

When you confronted O.J.

# 840 A:

It was a conversation between me and O.J.

# 841 Q:

What were you talking about before you made this statement to O.J.?

# 842 A:

Just about their relationship?

# 843 Q:

Yes. You were talking about the relationship?

# 844 A:

Uh-huh.

# 845 Q:

Who brought --

# 846 JOHN KELLY:

You have to answer "yes" or "no" on the record.

# 847 DENISE BROWN:

Yes.

# 848 Q:

Who commenced the issue of talking about the relationship?

# 849 A:

I don't know. It just happened.

# 850 Q:

Was O.J. making drinks when you discussed this?

# 851 A:

I don't remember if he was making drinks.

# 852 Q:

What was he wearing?

# 853 A:

I don't --

# 854 JOHN KELLY:

Simpson wearing?

# 855 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 856 DENISE BROWN:

I don't remember.

# 857 Q:

What were you wearing?

# 858 A:

I don't recall.

# 859 Q:

What was Nicole wearing?

# 860 A:

I don't remember.

# 861 Q:

Were there any housekeepers in the home that night?

# 862 A:

That I don't know.

# 863 Q:

Was there a nanny in the home that night?

# 864 A:

That I don't know.

# 865 Q:

Anyone else in the home that you know of other than Ed, Nicole, you and O.J?

# 866 A:

That's all I remember.

# 867 Q:

Tell me exactly what you recall saying to O.J. when he was standing behind the bar.

# 868 A:

I told him that he took Nicole for granted.

# 869 Q:

What was his response?

# 870 A:

He goes, "What? Me? I don't take" -- "I'm not taking her for granted."

# 871 Q:

And then --

# 872 A:

The conversation just went after that.

# 873 Q:

What do you recall next? Who spoke next?

# 874 A:

Well, I don't know who spoke next. It was like, "Yeah, yeah," he took her for granted. "He's taking me for granted." Nicole would repeat -- say words as well.

# 875 Q:

Nicole repeated it?

# 876 A:

Oh, yeah.

# 877 Q:

Did Ed say anything?

# 878 A:

I don't remember if he did.

# 879 Q:

When is the last time you talked to Ed [Name Deleted]?

# 880 A:

Oh, probably after the murder.

# 881 Q:

When after the murder?

# 882 A:

I don't remember when.

# 883 Q:

Was it a week after the murder, a month after the murder?

# 884 A:

No. It was awhile after the murder.

# 885 Q:

Was it during the trial?

# 886 A:

Probably.

# 887 Q:

Did you talk about this incident with him?

# 888 A:

No.

# 889 Q:

Did you ever talk to Ed about this incident after it occurred?

# 890 JOHN KELLY:

Ed [Name Deleted]?

# 891 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 892 DENISE BROWN:

I don't remember.

# 893 Q:

You have no recollection of ever talking with him about this incident following that evening?

# 894 A:

I -- I don't recall.

# 895 Q:

Do you know if he filed a police report?

# 896 JOHN KELLY:

Regarding this incident?

# 897 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 898 DENISE BROWN:

If who did?

# 899 PHILLIP BAKER:

Ed [Name Deleted].

# 900 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know.

# 901 Q:

Did Nicole throw any pictures that night?

# 902 A:

No.

# 903 Q:

Did you ever stay at Ed [Name Deleted]'s condominium?

# 904 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 905 DENISE BROWN:

Can I get some water?

# 906 JOHN KELLY:

Yes.

# 907 (Interruption in proceedings.)

# 908 Q:

So following this argument at the bar, who left the bar area first?

# 909 A:

Oh, I don't know. I think everybody just sort of stood up.

# 910 Q:

And walked where?

# 911 A:

O.J. started pushing her out of the house, wanting her to get out.

# 912 Q:

In the bar area?

# 913 A:

Yeah.

# 914 Q:

How did O.J. approach Nicole?

# 915 A:

How did he approach her? Where was she standing when he pushed her trying to throw her out?

# 916 Q:

We were in the foyer at that point, kitchen. Were you in the kitchen or entryway?

# 917 A:

The entrance to the kitchen and foyer are

# 918 Q:

By the door to the kitchen?

# 919 A:

Uh-huh.

# 920 Q:

Is that a "yes"?

# 921 A:

Yes. I'm sorry.

# 922 Q:

So who left the bar area first?

# 923 A:

Oh, I don't recall who left first.

# 924 Q:

So the next recollection you have after this argument at the bar area is O.J. trying to throw Nicole out of the foyer area?

# 925 A:

No.

# 926 Q:

What happened next?

# 927 A:

Next recollection I have is O.J. walking up the stairs, or running up the stairs, and he was throwing down pictures on the wall and throwing downstairs -- from the top of the staircase down into the foyer and on top of Nicole and saying, ''Get out of my house." She said, "This is my house, too."

# 928 Q:

I think you misspoke, "throwing downstairs"?

# 929 A:

Throwing down clothes. Sorry.

# 930 Q:

Did Nicole climb the stairs?

# 931 A:

No.

# 932 Q:

Did Ed climb the stairs?

# 933 A:

I don't think so.

# 934 Q:

Did Ed try to protect Nicole in any way?

# 935 A:

Not that I recall, no.

# 936 Q:

Did you try to protect Nicole in any way?

# 937 A:

I was sitting there screaming and crying. I think we were all screaming and crying at that point.

# 938 Q:

Did you block anything that O.J. was throwing at Nicole?

# 939 A:

I tried to get in front of him when he tried to throw her out of the house, yes.

# 940 Q:

When he was throwing pictures, did any of them hit you?

# 941 A:

No.

# 942 Q:

Did any of them hit Nicole?

# 943 A:

Where they were landing --

# 944 Q:

Did any --

# 945 A:

-- down on the stairs, down on the floor.

# 946 Q:

Did any of them hit Nicole --

# 947 A:

No.

# 948 THE REPORTER:

Please --

# 949 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 950 Q:

Did any of the pictures hit Nicole?

# 951 A:

No.

# 952 Q:

Did any of the pictures break?

# 953 A:

The frames cracked, yes.

# 954 Q:

Was there glass on the floor?

# 955 A:

I think so.

# 956 Q:

Did anyone cut themselves, as far as you knew?

# 957 A:

No.

# 958 Q:

Did Nicole ever hit O.J.?

# 959 JOHN KELLY:

This night?

# 960 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 961 DENISE BROWN:

No.

# 962 Q:

You never saw her slap him or push him?

# 963 A:

(Shakes head in the negative.) No.

# 964 Q:

Where on the stairs was O.J. standing when he was throwing these pictures from the wall?

# 965 A:

He was walking up the stairs.

# 966 Q:

Was he throwing them over his shoulder, turn around and throw them? How did he do it?

# 967 A:

How did he do it? Running up the stairs, grabbing and just throwing them down.

# 968 Q:

Throwing them over his shoulder?

# 969 A:

Yeah.

# 970 Q:

Were any of them landing near you, Nicole or Ed?

# 971 A:

No.

# 972 Q:

Did you guys walk out of the house?

# 973 A:

No. We got thrown out of the house.

# 974 Q:

Were you scared of O.J. when he was throwing the pictures down the staircase?

# 975 A:

Yes.

# 976 Q:

You didn't leave the house?

# 977 A:

I -- Nicole was not going to leave the house.

# 978 Q:

The question was, you didn't leave the house at that point?

# 979 A:

No, not at that point.

# 980 Q:

Who drove? Did Ed drive?

# 981 A:

Ed drove.

# 982 Q:

Was his car inside the estate or --

# 983 JOHN KELLY:

Inside the what?

# 984 Q:

-- or on the street? The estate.

# 985 A:

We didn't take Ed's car.

# 986 Q:

How did you get home that night?

# 987 A:

Nicole's car.

# 988 Q:

Where was Ed's car?

# 989 A:

I don't recall. I think out in front.

# 990 Q:

On Ashford or Rockingham?

# 991 A:

Everybody usually parked on Ashford.

# 992 Q:

So it was parked on Ashford?

# 993 A:

As far as I remember.

# 994 Q:

Had O.J. pushed or hit Nicole in any manner prior to throwing these pictures?

# 995 JOHN KELLY:

Talking about this particular night, Phil?

# 996 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 997 DENISE BROWN:

No, not yet.

# 998 Q:

As far as you recall, he leaves the bar and walks up the stairs and starts throwing pictures; correct?

# 999 A:

Correct.

# 1000 Q:

And you were scared of O.J. at this point?

# 1001 A:

Yeah.

# 1002 Q:

And you didn't leave the house?

# 1003 A:

No.

# 1004 Q:

Did you call the police?

# 1005 A:

No.

# 1006 Q:

Did you push the alarm?

# 1007 A:

No.

# 1008 Q:

Did you call anyone?

# 1009 A:

No.

# 1010 Q:

While O.J. was throwing the pictures, did anyone say, "We ought to get out of here"?

# 1011 A:

No. Everybody was just saying how crazy he was.

# 1012 Q:

Who was saying that?

# 1013 A:

Myself and Nicole.

# 1014 Q:

What exactly did you say, if you recall?

# 1015 A:

I said, "He's nuts. We've got to get out of here. He's crazy." She said, "I'm not leaving. This is my house, too."

# 1016 Q:

Were they married at that point?

# 1017 A:

I don't remember.

# 1018 Q:

But she believed it was her house, also?

# 1019 A:

That's what she said.

# 1020 Q:

At that point you said --

# 1021 JOHN KELLY:

Did we get the last answer, Judy?

# 1022 THE REPORTER:

"That's what she said."

# 1023 JOHN KELLY:

Thank you.

# 1024 Q:

At that point you wanted to get out of there?

# 1025 A:

I didn't want to stay.

# 1026 Q:

You wanted to get out of there?

# 1027 A:

Yes.

# 1028 Q:

What happened next? Well, strike that. How many pictures did he throw?

# 1029 A:

I don't recall.

# 1030 Q:

Over 5?

# 1031 A:

I don't know.

# 1032 Q:

Do you have any recollection whatsoever of how many pictures he threw?

# 1033 A:

How many, no.

# 1034 Q:

Do you know what the pictures were of?

# 1035 A:

Usually of our family.

# 1036 Q:

Was it over 10 pictures he threw?

# 1037 A:

I don't remember.

# 1038 Q:

More than 1?

# 1039 A:

Yeah.

# 1040 Q:

More than 5?

# 1041 A:

I don't know.

# 1042 Q:

Then what happened after he threw the pictures?

# 1043 A:

He started throwing her clothes.

# 1044 Q:

Where were you standing when he was throwing the pictures?

# 1045 A:

I was standing just on the entrance to get into the foyer.

# 1046 Q:

The front door?

# 1047 A:

No. The backside of it (indicating).

# 1048 Q:

Back towards the family room?

# 1049 A:

Right.

# 1050 Q:

Where was Nicole standing?

# 1051 A:

I think she was more in the foyer are

# 1052 Q:

Toward the kitchen door?

# 1053 A:

Yeah.

# 1054 Q:

Where was Ed standing?

# 1055 A:

I don't remember. I think he was closer to the front door. I'm not real sure.

# 1056 Q:

Where did O.J. get Nicole's clothes to throw?

# 1057 A:

Out of the closet.

# 1058 Q:

Which closet?

# 1059 A:

Her closet upstairs.

# 1060 Q:

Anyone else go upstairs with him?

# 1061 A:

Not that I recall.

# 1062 Q:

How long did it take him to get the clothes from Nicole's closet?

# 1063 A:

No time at all.

# 1064 Q:

How many clothes did he throw?

# 1065 A:

Quite a few. He just grabbed a handful and threw them down.

# 1066 Q:

Over 10 articles of clothes?

# 1067 A:

Yes, I'm sure.

# 1068 Q:

Were they on hangers or just lumped together?

# 1069 A:

Just lumped together.

# 1070 Q:

And the clothes were in the closet of O.J.'s bedroom?

# 1071 A:

Yes.

# 1072 Q:

Before that night had Nicole ever said that this is her house also?

# 1073 JOHN KELLY:

To her?

# 1074 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 1075 DENISE BROWN:

To me, no.

# 1076 Q:

That's the first time you heard it?

# 1077 A:

Yeah.

# 1078 Q:

How do you know that is where he got Nicole's clothes if you weren't up there?

# 1079 A:

Because I had been in that house before, and her clothes were in her closet.

# 1080 Q:

How many times had you been up there prior to this incident?

# 1081 A:

Lots of times. They have been together for years already.

# 1082 Q:

And they had been dating for years already when this incident occurred?

# 1083 A:

I -- Yeah. I -- See, I don't recall the exact date, but I know they had been dating for a long time.

# 1084 Q:

Was it around 1980?

# 1085 A:

I don't remember.

# 1086 Q:

Mid-'80s?

# 1087 A:

I don't remember.

# 1088 Q:

How many times had you been up to O.J.'s room prior to this incident occurring?

# 1089 A:

I -- Quite a few.

# 1090 Q:

Why would you go up to O.J.'s bedroom?

# 1091 JOHN KELLY:

Are we referring to --

# 1092 DENISE BROWN:

Because it was Nicole's bedroom, too. Sorry.

# 1093 Q:

So they were living together at that point?

# 1094 A:

As far as I recall, yes.

# 1095 Q:

Did she have a condominium on Gretna Green at that point?

# 1096 A:

No.

# 1097 Q:

Where was she living?

# 1098 A:

At Rockingham.

# 1099 Q:

So after O.J. throws the pictures and walks into his bedroom, is there any conversation between you and Nicole and Ed?

# 1100 A:

I don't remember specifics.

# 1101 Q:

Did Nicole try to climb the stairs and talk to him?

# 1102 A:

Not that I recall.

# 1103 Q:

Were you still standing by the foyer/family room area?

# 1104 A:

At that point, I think so.

# 1105 Q:

Did anyone move at all physically during the time that O.J. throws the frames and walks into his bedroom?

# 1106 A:

I know Nicole was sitting on the stairs, bottom of the stairs.

# 1107 Q:

So Nicole had moved from the foyer and was now sitting on the bottom of the stairs?

# 1108 A:

Yes.

# 1109 Q:

Facing away from the staircase?

# 1110 A:

Yes.

# 1111 Q:

What was she saying?

# 1112 A:

I think it was at that point she said, "This is my house, too. I'm staying."

# 1113 Q:

She said it at that point after he had thrown the frames and walked into the bedroom?

# 1114 A:

She said it a couple times that night.

# 1115 Q:

How many times did she say --

# 1116 A:

2, 3 times.

# 1117 Q:

And Ed was close enough to hear this?

# 1118 JOHN KELLY:

Well --

# 1119 Q:

In your opinion.

# 1120 JOHN KELLY:

You can answer if you know.

# 1121 DENISE BROWN:

In my opinion, I think so.

# 1122 Q:

Did any of the frames break on the stairs?

# 1123 A:

They were carpeted. I know they broke. There were some that broke. I don't know if they broke on the stairs.

# 1124 Q:

And do you have any estimate as to how long it took for O.J. to grab the clothes of Nicole?

# 1125 A:

A couple of seconds.

# 1126 Q:

But in the interim she walked from the foyer and sat on the stairs?

# 1127 A:

Yeah. That's not that far.

# 1128 Q:

And what was she wearing that night?

# 1129 A:

I don't recall.

# 1130 Q:

Where did O.J. throw the clothes?

# 1131 A:

Down on the foyer and on the stairs.

# 1132 Q:

Any of them hit Nicole?

# 1133 A:

Yeah. They landed on top of her.

# 1134 Q:

Any of them hit you?

# 1135 A:

No.

# 1136 Q:

Any of them hit Ed?

# 1137 A:

I don't know.

# 1138 Q:

How many clothes were there?

# 1139 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered.

MR. PHILLIP BAKER

# 1140 Q:

Do you know how many articles there were?

# 1141 A:

I don't recall.

# 1142 Q:

What type of clothes did he throw?

# 1143 A:

Well, I don't know. Just Nicole's clothes. I'm not sure.

# 1144 Q:

Undergarments? Were they jeans?

# 1145 A:

I don't know specifics.

# 1146 Q:

Did you have any recollection of any type of clothing that O.J. threw?

# 1147 A:

An article of clothing?

# 1148 Q:

Yeah. Jacket?

# 1149 A:

Sweats, that -- I remember seeing a knit jacket, a knit coat.

# 1150 Q:

How many drinks had Nicole had that night?

# 1151 A:

I don't know.

# 1152 Q:

How many drinks did she have at La Cantina?

# 1153 A:

I don't really remember.

# 1154 Q:

When you arrived at Rockingham, did it appear to you that she had had drinks previously?

# 1155 A:

You'll have to ask her. I don't know.

# 1156 Q:

You don't know if she had any drinks previously?

# 1157 A:

I don't know.

# 1158 Q:

When you returned from La Cantina, did she have any drinks?

# 1159 A:

We all sat there with a drink.

# 1160 Q:

Do you recall what you were drinking?

# 1161 A:

(Shakes head in the negative.) I -- I really don't.

# 1162 Q:

Was it beer, wine, hard alcohol?

# 1163 A:

It could have been wine. I don't remember.

# 1164 Q:

Where did O.J. throw the clothes from?

# 1165 A:

The top of the stairs.

# 1166 Q:

Did he say anything when he threw them?

# 1167 A:

Yeah. "Get out of my house."

# 1168 Q:

Where was she sitting, which stair?

# 1169 JOHN KELLY:

Phil, once again, you've got to let her finish the answer. You are jumping in before the answer is done.

# 1170 Q:

Where was she sitting, which stair?

# 1171 A:

On the bottom of the staircase.

# 1172 Q:

Bottom step?

# 1173 A:

Either the second or the third.

# 1174 Q:

Were her feet on the floor of the entranceway, or was it -- Were her feet on a step?

# 1175 A:

I don't remember.

# 1176 Q:

Did all the clothes land on Nicole or into the foyer area?

# 1177 A:

Both.

# 1178 Q:

Tell me exactly what you believe O.J. said.

# 1179 A:

He said, "Get" --

# 1180 JOHN KELLY:

Which point?

# 1181 PHILLIP BAKER:

When he threw the clothes.

# 1182 DENISE BROWN:

He said, "I want you out of my house. Get out of my house."

# 1183 Q:

What was said next?

# 1184 A:

She said, "I'm not leaving. This is my house, too."

# 1185 Q:

Was she still seated on the steps --

# 1186 A:

Yes.

# 1187 Q:

-- when he said this?

# 1188 A:

Yes, yes.

# 1189 Q:

Then what happens?

# 1190 A:

He runs down the stairs. She gets up. He said, "You are getting out of my house." He grabbed her and threw her up against the door, up against the wall. He says, "You are getting out of my house."

# 1191 Q:

Did he pick her up from the stairs?

# 1192 A:

No. I think she was getting up to get out of his way.

# 1193 Q:

Did he push her from the stairs?

# 1194 A:

Yeah.

# 1195 Q:

Do you --

# 1196 A:

Pushed her up against the kitchen door there.

# 1197 Q:

The kitchen door was closed?

# 1198 A:

No. The kitchen door was open.

# 1199 Q:

He pushed her up against the kitchen door?

# 1200 A:

He had her by his hands, by her arms (indicating), and threw her up against the kitchen door.

# 1201 Q:

With her face against the door?

# 1202 A:

No.

# 1203 Q:

Her face towards him?

# 1204 A:

Yes.

# 1205 Q:

And he pushed it so -- When she gets up from the stairs, did she turn toward him?

# 1206 A:

I don't remember how it happened.

# 1207 Q:

When he grabs her by the arms, are they on the stairs or in the entrance to the foyer?

# 1208 A:

On the foyer.

# 1209 Q:

He pushes her up against the door which faces the staircase?

# 1210 A:

No, which faces the front door.

# 1211 Q:

They are still in the entranceway?

# 1212 A:

Foyer is here? (Indicating.) Can I explain?

# 1213 JOHN KELLY:

Sure. I wish you would.

# 1214 DENISE BROWN:

Foyer is here (indicating). Okay. The front door is here (indicating).

# 1215 ROBERT BAKER:

Just draw it.

# 1216 DENISE BROWN:

There is a door here (indicating). The door swung open. She was up against that door (indicating).

# 1217 Q:

The door swung open into the kitchen?

# 1218 A:

Yes. He was -- She was up against that wall, up against that door, so she was actually looking not even out the front door, just inside that doorway.

# 1219 Q:

She was inside the kitchen when he threw her up against the door?

# 1220 A:

Right in the doorway, yeah.

# 1221 Q:

The doorway was open?

# 1222 A:

Yeah.

# 1223 Q:

And did you run over to try to protect her?

# 1224 A:

I was screaming, "Stop it. Stop it. What are you doing?

# 1225 Q:

Did you run over and try to protect her?

# 1226 A:

"Stop it. Stop it."

# 1227 Q:

Did you run over and try to protect her is the question.

# 1228 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered.

# 1229 ROBERT BAKER:

It's asked.

# 1230 PHILLIP BAKER:

Hasn't been answered.

# 1231 Q:

Did you try to protect her?

# 1232 JOHN KELLY:

She told you what she did to protect her. She told your client to stop doing it to her sister.

# 1233 Q:

Did you pull O.J. away from Nicole?

# 1234 A:

No.

# 1235 Q:

Did Ed pull O.J. away from Nicole?

# 1236 A:

No.

# 1237 Q:

Where was Ed at this point?

# 1238 A:

In the corner, in the foyer.

# 1239 Q:

Standing in the corner of the foyer?

# 1240 A:

He was still in the foyer. I don't know where he was.

# 1241 Q:

Was the front door open?

# 1242 JOHN KELLY:

At what time?

# 1243 PHILLIP BAKER:

When he has Nicole by the arms at the kitchen door.

# 1244 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know if it was open then or just opened just shortly after.

# 1245 Q:

Do you recall who opened it?

# 1246 A:

No. I think O.J.

# 1247 Q:

What happened next after he has her up against the kitchen door?

# 1248 A:

He says, "You are getting out of my house." She says, "I'm not leaving." Then he puts her down, tries to push her out. She says, "I'm not leaving." She is facing -- Now they are in the foyer again (indicating). He picks her up. He throws her outside the door (indicating).

# 1249 Q:

You said he pushed her down. Did he ever push her down to the ground?

# 1250 A:

This time he picked her up and threw her down to the ground. She landed on her butt and on her elbows.

# 1251 Q:

How did they get away from the door? Did he release her?

# 1252 A:

Yes.

# 1253 Q:

Where did she go?

# 1254 A:

Well, it happened in a matter of seconds.

# 1255 Q:

But where did she go?

# 1256 A:

Ran out towards the foyer again.

# 1257 Q:

Ran from the kitchen down to the foyer area?

# 1258 A:

Yeah, from here to here (indicating).

# 1259 JOHN KELLY:

About 5 feet?

# 1260 DENISE BROWN:

Yeah.

# 1261 Q:

She didn't hit him at all at this point?

# 1262 A:

No.

# 1263 Q:

She never hit him once in this incident?

# 1264 A:

I didn't see her hit him.

# 1265 Q:

Was there a table in the foyer?

# 1266 A:

Yes.

# 1267 Q:

Was there a lamp on the table?

# 1268 A:

I think so.

# 1269 Q:

Were there frames on the table?

# 1270 A:

That I don't remember.

# 1271 Q:

Was anything ever knocked off the table?

# 1272 A:

Not that I recall.

# 1273 Q:

Was the table ever knocked over?

# 1274 A:

No.

# 1275 Q:

So after he releases her and she moves towards the foyer, what happens next?

# 1276 A:

Then he says, "You are getting out." And she says, "No." And he picked her up, and he threw her out the door.

# 1277 Q:

Is she facing towards him or away from him?

# 1278 A:

She is facing towards him (indicating).

# 1279 Q:

So how does he pick her up?

# 1280 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. Well, go ahead and answer it. Answer it.

# 1281 DENISE BROWN:

The two of us facing each other, picks her up (indicating), throws her right through the door.

# 1282 Q:

So picks her up by the arms again?

# 1283 A:

Yes.

# 1284 Q:

And he throws her right through the door? (Indicating.)

# 1285 A:

Well, the door was open at this point, and he threw her outside, yeah.

# 1286 Q:

Were her feet off the ground?

# 1287 A:

Yes.

# 1288 Q:

How far off the ground?

# 1289 A:

Far enough not for her to get her balance.

# 1290 Q:

Over a foot? Over 6 inches?

# 1291 A:

I don't know.

# 1292 Q:

Did Ed try to restrain O.J. at this point?

# 1293 A:

No.

# 1294 Q:

Did you try to restrain O.J. at this point?

# 1295 A:

Not physically, no.

# 1296 Q:

Now, the door is now open?

# 1297 A:

Yes.

# 1298 Q:

Do you know who opened the door?

# 1299 A:

I don't recall. Possibly O.J.

# 1300 Q:

Has O.J. opened the door before he picked her up this second time?

# 1301 A:

Possibly. I don't remember.

# 1302 Q:

How much did she weigh at this point?

# 1303 A:

(Indicating.) I don't know.

# 1304 Q:

Were O.J.'s arms out in front of him?

# 1305 JOHN KELLY:

What point in time?

# 1306 PHILLIP BAKER:

Second point in time.

# 1307 ROBERT BAKER:

When she goes out the door.

# 1308 JOHN KELLY:

After he released her? ROBERT BAKER: No. When he picks her up.

# 1309 DENISE BROWN:

Were they out in front of him?

# 1310 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 1311 DENISE BROWN:

Like straight? (Indicating.)

# 1312 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 1313 DENISE BROWN:

(Indicating.) I don't think straight.

# 1314 Q:

Does he pick her up vertically or horizontally?

# 1315 A:

Like this, up and down vertically.

# 1316 Q:

So he --

# 1317 JOHN KELLY:

This isn't a real good record here we have. Ask her to --

# 1318 Q:

Picked her up, straight up vertically? Picks her straight up vertically the second time?

# 1319 A:

Yes.

# 1320 Q:

And he has her by her shoulders?

# 1321 A:

By her arms.

# 1322 Q:

(Indicating.) And are his arms straight?

# 1323 A:

I don't remember.

# 1324 Q:

And now what is Nicole doing? Is she screaming?

# 1325 A:

Crying, screaming --

# 1326 Q:

Is she --

# 1327 A:

-- yelling.

# 1328 Q:

Is she trying to fight back?

# 1329 A:

No. She is trying to control him, trying to calm him down.

# 1330 Q:

Is she kicking him?

# 1331 A:

I -- I don't remember.

# 1332 Q:

So between the first time he holds her and the second time he holds her, how much time elapses?

# 1333 A:

Just a few seconds.

# 1334 Q:

Did you see O.J. open the door? Do you remember that interim?

# 1335 JOHN KELLY:

The front door?

# 1336 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 1337 DENISE BROWN:

You know, I don't recall whether he did or not.

# 1338 Q:

When he is holding her by the arms prior to throwing her out the door, do you see him open it?

# 1339 A:

No.

# 1340 Q:

The door is already open?

# 1341 A:

From what I remember, the door was open. I don't know if he opened it before or if someone else opened it.

# 1342 Q:

How does he throw her out the door?

# 1343 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered, but I will let her answer it again.

# 1344 DENISE BROWN:

Picked her up, threw her out (indicating).

# 1345 Q:

Threw her forward?

# 1346 A:

She was falling backwards.

# 1347 Q:

Where did she land on her --

# 1348 A:

On her butt and on her elbows.

# 1349 Q:

Did she hit her head?

# 1350 A:

I -- I don't remember if she did or not.

# 1351 Q:

Was she injured --

# 1352 A:

Possibly.

# 1353 Q:

-- in any way?

# 1354 A:

Yeah. Her elbows were all scraped up.

# 1355 Q:

Do you know if she ever saw a doctor following incident?

# 1356 A:

That I don't know.

# 1357 Q:

Where did she land?

# 1358 JOHN KELLY:

When she was thrown out of the house?

# 1359 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 1360 ROBERT BAKER:

Location, driveway or sidewalk.

# 1361 JOHN KELLY:

I think Ashford --

# 1362 Q:

Where did she land? entranceway? driveway?

# 1363 A:

She landed in the -- in the -- what do you call it, the entranceway to the house. You know, just outside the house.

# 1364 Q:

Was he standing in the entranceway of the house when he throws her?

# 1365 A:

They were in the foyer, in the house.

# 1366 Q:

So he throws her from inside the house?

# 1367 A:

Yes.

# 1368 Q:

How far off the ground was she, do you recall?

# 1369 A:

I don't recall.

# 1370 Q:

More than a foot off the ground?

# 1371 A:

I don't recall.

# 1372 Q:

How tall was Nicole?

# 1373 A:

About 5, 8.

# 1374 ROBERT BAKER:

Take a break.

# 1375 PHILLIP BAKER:

Why don't we take 5 minutes.

# 1376 (A recess is taken.)

# 1377 PHILLIP BAKER:

Go back on.

# 1378 Q:

Referring back to the -- I'll just refer to it as the La Cantina incident just so the record is clear.

# 1379 A:

Okay.

# 1380 Q:

How far did O.J. throw Nicole following the La Cantina?

# 1381 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered.

# 1382 Q:

Feet.

# 1383 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. But answer it again if you can.

# 1384 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know how many feet.

# 1385 Q:

Over 10?

# 1386 A:

How far is from here to there (indicating), to the wall?

# 1387 MICHAEL BREWER:

20, 30 maybe.

# 1388 ROBERT BAKER:

50, 60 feet. We will take his estimation, 30 --

# 1389 JOHN KELLY:

Let the record indicate 8 feet.

# 1390 Q:

O.J. threw Nicole about 8 feet?

# 1391 A:

I don't know feet.

# 1392 JOHN KELLY:

Talking about from where she ultimately landed or --

# 1393 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes

# 1394 Q:

She landed about 8 feet from O.J. when he threw her?

# 1395 A:

I don't know feet so that's --

# 1396 ROBERT BAKER:

Do it in inches.

# 1397 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know those either.

# 1398 Q:

Do you understand the metric system? What happened next after he threw her?

# 1399 A:

We packed the car -- After he threw her?

# 1400 Q:

Yes.

# 1401 A:

He got rid of Ed [Name Deleted], got him out of the house. And then he got me out of the house, threw he out of the house.

# 1402 Q:

After he throws Nicole about 8 feet, he does what?

# 1403 A:

Gets Ed out.

# 1404 Q:

How does he get Ed out?

# 1405 A:

He pushes him out.

# 1406 Q:

Where is Ed standing?

# 1407 A:

Inside the foyer.

# 1408 Q:

So Ed didn't want to walk out?

# 1409 JOHN KELLY:

If --

# 1410 Q:

If you know.

# 1411 JOHN KELLY:

If you know.

# 1412 DENISE BROWN:

Ed didn't want to walk out?

# 1413 Q:

Ed was still in the foyer after he threw her?

# 1414 A:

He got pushed out.

# 1415 Q:

Where was he standing in the foyer?

# 1416 A:

It's not that big (indicating). By the door, in the middle.

# 1417 Q:

Standing in the corner?

# 1418 A:

At that point when he got thrown out? He was being thrown out the front door.

# 1419 Q:

Where did O.J. grab Ed?

# 1420 A:

In the foyer.

# 1421 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry. What part of his body did he grab Ed?

# 1422 Q:

During the La Cantina incident after O.J. throws Nicole out the door, where does he grab Ed, what part of his body?

# 1423 A:

His arm.

# 1424 Q:

Did O.J. grab her -- grab him with both arms or one arm?

# 1425 A:

Just with one (indicating), pushed him out.

# 1426 Q:

So O.J. grabs him with his right or left arm?

# 1427 A:

I think with the right.

# 1428 Q:

O.J. takes his right arm, uses his right arm?

# 1429 A:

Yes.

# 1430 Q:

And he grabs Ed where?

# 1431 A:

(Indicating.) On his arm and throws him out, pushes him out.

# 1432 Q:

What arm of Ed's did O.J. grab?

# 1433 A:

How about his left arm and his back are

# 1434 ROBERT BAKER:

Not "how about." Is that your answer?

# 1435 PHILLIP BAKER:

Is that your best recollection? Yes.

# 1436 Q:

I don't want you to guess about anything. I want your truthful responses.

# 1437 A:

Well -- Well, you push somebody out the door --

# 1438 JOHN KELLY:

Don't give a speech. Answer the question as best you can.

# 1439 DENISE BROWN:

Left back.

# 1440 Q:

Does he lift Ed off the ground?

# 1441 A:

No.

# 1442 Q:

How much did Ed weigh, if you know?

# 1443 A:

I don't know.

# 1444 Q:

Over 180 pounds?

# 1445 A:

I don't know.

# 1446 Q:

How tall was Ed?

# 1447 A:

Short.

# 1448 Q:

5 foot, 8?

# 1449 A:

About 5, 8.

# 1450 ROBERT BAKER:

That's short?

# 1451 Q:

That's not that short.

# 1452 A:

Sorry.

# 1453 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I object to that characterization.

# 1454 DENISE BROWN:

Only because I'm 5, 8. Sorry.

# 1455 Q:

Is Ed facing O.J. when O.J. grabs him?

# 1456 A:

Yeah. I think he was facing outside, facing toward the door.

# 1457 Q:

Was Ed trying to walk out the door?

# 1458 A:

He was ready to walk out, I'm sure.

# 1459 Q:

Was he walking toward the door when O.J. grabs him?

# 1460 A:

In that direction.

# 1461 Q:

So he was walking towards the door when O.J. grabs him?

# 1462 A:

Toward the direction, yes.

# 1463 Q:

O.J. grabs him with his right arm?

# 1464 A:

And pushes him out.

# 1465 Q:

So he pushes him out.

# 1466 (Nods head in the affirmative.)

# 1467 Q:

He doesn't throw him out?

# 1468 A:

Pushes him out.

# 1469 Q:

Does Ed fall?

# 1470 A:

No.

# 1471 Q:

What were you doing when O.J. was pushing Ed out?

# 1472 A:

Screaming and crying.

# 1473 Q:

Were you trying to get out of the house?

# 1474 A:

Telling him to stop.

# 1475 Q:

Were you trying to get out of the house?

# 1476 A:

No. He pushed me out of the house.

# 1477 Q:

Were you trying to get out of the house when he pushed Ed out of the house?

# 1478 A:

No. Because he turned around to grab me.

# 1479 Q:

So let me get this straight. He has thrown Nicole 8 feet out of the house. He then pushes Ed out of the house. And at this point you haven't tried to leave the house?

# 1480 A:

At this point he's in the front door, isn't he?

# 1481 Q:

Is that true?

# 1482 A:

Yes.

# 1483 Q:

Where are you standing when he pushes Ed out of the house?

# 1484 A:

Right behind him.

# 1485 Q:

Facing the doorway?

# 1486 A:

Yes.

# 1487 Q:

After O.J. pushes Ed out of the house, which way does he turn? O.J., that is.

# 1488 A:

Which way does he turn?

# 1489 Q:

Turn toward you? Does he turn back toward the kitchen? towards the stairs?

# 1490 A:

He turns toward me to throw me out of the house.

# 1491 Q:

Where did he grab you?

# 1492 A:

On my arms.

# 1493 Q:

With both hands --

# 1494 A:

Yes.

# 1495 THE REPORTER:

Please --

# 1496 ROBERT BAKER:

You are worse than I am.

# 1497 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 1498 Q:

Does he grab you with both arms?

# 1499 JOHN KELLY:

Let the record reflect that --

# 1500 DENISE BROWN:

I think just one.

# 1501 Q:

When O.J. pushed Ed out the doorway, where was Nicole?

# 1502 A:

On the floor.

# 1503 Q:

Still on the floor?

# 1504 A:

Yeah.

# 1505 Q:

Was she screaming?

# 1506 A:

Yeah.

# 1507 Q:

You were standing behind Ed when O.J. pushes Ed out the door?

# 1508 A:

Right.

# 1509 THE REPORTER:

Please -

# 1510 PHILLIP BAKER:

I'm sorry, Judy.

# 1511 Q:

How does O.J. grab you?

# 1512 A:

By my arm, and throws me out.

# 1513 Q:

Does he grab you with both of his arms?

# 1514 A:

I think just one.

# 1515 Q:

With his right or left arm?

# 1516 A:

Possibly his right.

# 1517 Q:

Does he pick you off the ground?

# 1518 A:

No.

# 1519 Q:

Where does he grab you?

# 1520 A:

On my arm.

# 1521 Q:

Which arm?

# 1522 A:

This arm (indicating), left.

# 1523 Q:

O.J. grabs you with his right arm on your left arm?

# 1524 A:

Yes, and throws me out.

# 1525 Q:

Picks you up and throws you out? (Indicating. )

# 1526 A:

I didn't leave the ground.

# 1527 Q:

So does he push you out the door, or does he throw you out the door?

# 1528 A:

I don't see much of a difference.

# 1529 Q:

Are you escorted out the door, or are you picked off the ground and thrown out the door?

# 1530 A:

I was not picked up off the ground, no.

# 1531 Q:

Did you land outside the house?

# 1532 A:

Yes.

# 1533 Q:

Where did you land?

# 1534 A:

Outside the house, right outside the front door.

# 1535 Q:

How far from the front door did you land?

# 1536 A:

I wasn't thrown.

# 1537 Q:

How far did you -- You fell to the ground?

# 1538 A:

No.

# 1539 Q:

So you never fell to the ground after O.J. threw you out the door?

# 1540 A:

No.

# 1541 Q:

Where was Ed standing when you were thrown out the door?

# 1542 A:

Everybody was packing up the car, putting clothes in the car.

# 1543 Q:

So when you were thrown out of the house, Ed was already packing up the car?

# 1544 A:

Yes. And so was Nicole.

# 1545 Q:

And the car was on Ashford?

# 1546 A:

Car was in the driveway.

# 1547 Q:

Where was the car parked?

# 1548 A:

Right outside the front door.

# 1549 Q:

What kind of car was it?

# 1550 A:

Her little white Mercedes.

# 1551 Q:

The trunk was open?

# 1552 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry. What time, Phil?

# 1553 PHILLIP BAKER:

You are correct, John.

# 1554 Q:

When you were thrown out the door, was the trunk already open?

# 1555 A:

I don't know if it was already open --

# 1556 Q:

Well --

# 1557 A:

-- or if they just opened it.

# 1558 Q:

How were they packing the car when you were thrown out the door?

# 1559 A:

Well, you know what, I wasn't really paying attention to how they were packing the car.

# 1560 Q:

But you do recall they were packing the car when you were thrown out?

# 1561 A:

Yeah, because I went straight to help them.

# 1562 Q:

How long after Ed was escorted out the door were you thrown out the door?

# 1563 A:

Seconds.

# 1564 Q:

When Ed was escorted out the door, Nicole was on the ground; correct?

# 1565 A:

Yeah.

# 1566 Q:

And within seconds O.J. turns around, grabs you by the arm and throws you out the door?

# 1567 A:

Right.

# 1568 Q:

And at that point they are packing the car?

# 1569 A:

Right.

# 1570 Q:

Was Ed in any way trying to protect you when you were thrown out the door?

# 1571 A:

No.

# 1572 Q:

Do you remember if he was on the west side of the car or the east side of the car when you were thrown out the door?

# 1573 JOHN KELLY:

Well, rather than using "east" or "west," can we make it in relation -- Well, do you know what he's talking about, "east" and "west"?

# 1574 Q:

Was Ed packing the car from the passenger side or the driver's side when you were thrown out the door?

# 1575 A:

The driver's side.

# 1576 Q:

Where was Nicole packing the car when you were thrown out the door?

# 1577 A:

The trunk.

# 1578 Q:

So the trunk was open when you were thrown out the door?

# 1579 A:

Well, I don't know, but I mean, she was putting stuff in the trunk. I don't know what time it opened or when it opened.

# 1580 Q:

What was she placing in the trunk of the car?

# 1581 A:

What? Clothing.

# 1582 Q:

The clothing that O.J. had thrown?

# 1583 A:

Yes.

# 1584 Q:

When had she picked up this clothing?

# 1585 A:

When I got thrown out of the house.

# 1586 Q:

So Nicole had gotten back inside the house --

# 1587 A:

No. The clothing went out the front door.

# 1588 Q:

When did the clothing go out the front door?

# 1589 A:

During the whole time that things were going on.

# 1590 Q:

Did the clothing go out the front door before Nicole was thrown out?

# 1591 A:

Yes.

# 1592 Q:

Who threw the clothing out the front door?

# 1593 A:

O.J.

# 1594 Q:

So when O.J. comes down the stairs after throwing the clothing down the stairs, he picks up the clothing and throws it out the door?

# 1595 A:

Throws it out the door.

# 1596 Q:

Do you now recall that O.J. opened up the door?

# 1597 A:

Yeah. There you go.

# 1598 JOHN KELLY:

Is that "yes"?

# 1599 DENISE BROWN:

Yes.

# 1600 JOHN KELLY:

Okay.

# 1601 Q:

Where were you standing when O.J. threw the clothing out the door?

# 1602 A:

I was standing still in the -- in that doorway to the foyer.

# 1603 Q:

Where was Nicole standing when he threw the clothing out the door?

# 1604 A:

She was sitting on the stairs. That was just prior to that --

# 1605 Q:

Prior to what?

# 1606 A:

Wait a minute. He got -- Okay.

# 1607 JOHN KELLY:

Just -- Sorry. Is there a question pending?

# 1608 PHILLIP BAKER:

I can't remember. Is there a question pending? (Indicating.)

# 1609 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 1610 JOHN KELLY:

Why don't we start over again.

# 1611 Q:

So O. J. walks down the stairs after throwing the clothes, and picks up the clothes; correct?

# 1612 A:

No. Grabs Nicole, says, "Get out of my house."

# 1613 Q:

And throws her up against --

# 1614 A:

Throws her --

# 1615 ROBERT BAKER:

Ask her what --

# 1616 Q:

After O.J. throws the clothes down the stairs, what happened next that you recall?

# 1617 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered, asked and answered, asked and answered. This will be the last time. Why don't you just go through and tell exactly what happened as best you remember and move on.

# 1618 DENISE BROWN:

The whole thing?

# 1619 JOHN KELLY:

Yes, the whole thing.

# 1620 Q:

Yes.

# 1621 A:

O.J. goes up the stairs, starts throwing pictures down the stairs. O.J. goes into the room, into Nicole's bedroom or his bedroom, gets the clothes, throws them down the foyer, throws them down on Nicole. Comes back down the stairs, "Get out of my house." She says, "I'm not leaving. This is my house, too." He grabs her, throws her up against the wall. Goes back into the -- turns around, goes in the foyer, tells her to get out. She says, "No." He picks her up and throws her out the door, when she went off the ground. Then he pushed Ed [Name Deleted] out the door. And he grabbed me and threw me out the door.

# 1622 Q:

When did he throw the clothes out the door?

# 1623 A:

He is kicking the clothes out the door.

# 1624 Q:

Before he throws Nicole out? Before he throws you out?

# 1625 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered.

# 1626 PHILLIP BAKER:

I don't think that was.

# 1627 JOHN KELLY:

Many times, asked and answered, when he threw the clothes out of the house. She told you 4 times when.

# 1628 PHILLIP BAKER:

Now he's kicked the clothes out.

# 1629 Q:

When did he kick the clothes out?

# 1630 A:

Well, he threw them, kicked them, like you push them out of the house.

# 1631 Q:

That was before he threw Nicole out?

# 1632 A:

That was before and after.

# 1633 Q:

Where did he throw the clothes -- O.J. throw the clothes?

# 1634 A:

Down the stairs, onto the foyer --

# 1635 Q:

You are right.

# 1636 A:

-- and out the door.

# 1637 Q:

When he threw the clothes out the door, where do they land?

# 1638 A:

What is it called, right outside the --

# 1639 JOHN KELLY:

Courtyard?

# 1640 DENISE BROWN:

Whatever the entranceway is there.

# 1641 Q:

How far does he throw the clothes out the door?

# 1642 A:

I don't know.

# 1643 Q:

Over 8 feet?

# 1644 A:

I don't know. They were just out there.

# 1645 Q:

Did they land in the bushes, on the driveway, on the benches, on the bricks?

# 1646 A:

On the bricks.

# 1647 Q:

Do you recall where the clothes were? That's the only incident that you recall in which O.J. hit, slapped or in any way physically accosted Nicole?

# 1648 JOHN KELLY:

That she saw herself?

# 1649 Q:

That you saw.

# 1650 A:

That I saw physically, that's the only one I saw physically.

# 1651 Q:

Isn't it true this incident occurred in 1982?

# 1652 A:

If I knew, I would tell you.

# 1653 Q:

Isn't it true that they -- Nicole and O.J. were not married when this incident occurred?

# 1654 A:

If I knew the date, I would be able to tell you .

# 1655 JOHN KELLY:

We will stipulate if it was 1982, they weren't married yet.

# 1656 Q:

When were O.J. and Nicole married?

# 1657 A:

1985.

# 1658 Q:

What is the exact date?

# 1659 A:

Groundhog's Day, February 2nd.

# 1660 Q:

When was your son born?

# 1661 A:

1986.

# 1662 Q:

This incident occurred at least 3 years prior to the time that your son was born; correct?

# 1663 A:

It happened before my son was born.

# 1664 Q:

But was it over 2 years prior to your son's birth?

# 1665 JOHN KELLY:

Phil, she told you 50 different times she doesn't know the date or even can approximate. You are beating this thing to oblivion.

# 1666 Q:

How long before your son --

# 1667 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Redefining "tedium."

# 1668 PHILLIP BAKER:

Going for the details --

# 1669 DENISE BROWN:

I don't remember the date. I'm sorry.

# 1670 Q:

Did you ever see any bruises on Nicole that she attributed to O.J.?

# 1671 JOHN KELLY:

At any time?

# 1672 PHILLIP BAKER:

At any time.

# 1673 DENISE BROWN:

Yes.

# 1674 Q:

Did you see any bruises on Nicole as a result Cantina incident?

# 1675 A:

No, just scratches on her elbows.

# 1676 Q:

You were convinced O.J. wanted Nicole out of when he was throwing the clothes down the stairs; correct?

# 1677 A:

Repeat that.

# 1678 Q:

And you were convinced when O.J. was throwing the clothes down the stairs that he wanted Nicole out of the Rockingham house; correct?

# 1679 A:

That's what he had said.

# 1680 Q:

When did you see bruises on Nicole that you attributed to O.J. physically assaulting her?

# 1681 JOHN KELLY:

Other than this --

# 1682 PHILLIP BAKER:

I think she said scratches as a result of the La Cantina incident.

# 1683 DENISE BROWN:

Other than this evening?

# 1684 Q:

I thought you just testified that you didn't see any bruises on Nicole, just scratches, from the La Cantina incident.

# 1685 A:

Right.

# 1686 Q:

I want to know when you saw bruises on Nicole that you attributed to a physical assault by O.J.

# 1687 A:

After the '89 incident.

# 1688 Q:

Any other times?

# 1689 A:

Not that I recall.

# 1690 Q:

By the way, did you talk to Dominique about her deposition?

# 1691 A:

No.

# 1692 Q:

Did you talk to Judithia about her deposition?

# 1693 A:

No.

# 1694 Q:

Did you talk to Lou about his deposition?

# 1695 A:

No.

# 1696 Q:

Did you talk to any family member within the last month about your upcoming depositions?

# 1697 A:

No.

# 1698 Q:

Did you talk to anyone other than --

# 1699 JOHN KELLY:

Other than your lawyer.

# 1700 Q:

-- other than Mr. Kelly?

# 1701 A:

No.

# 1702 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 1703 Q:

When did you see the bruises after the 1989 incident?

# 1704 A:

Shortly after the -- the incident happened. New Year's, New Year's Eve.

# 1705 Q:

Shortly after, a week, a month? How long?

# 1706 JOHN KELLY:

I'm sorry. For the record, can we put a date on this '89 incident?

# 1707 DENISE BROWN:

Yeah. It was New Year's Eve.

# 1708 Q:

After the New Year's Eve 1989 incident --

# 1709 JOHN KELLY:

New Year's Day 1989.

# 1710 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Not New Year's Eve '89, New Year's day '89.

# 1711 ROBERT BAKER:

1-1-89.

# 1712 Q:

After the 1-1-89 incident, when did you see bruises on Nicole?

# 1713 A:

A couple of days later.

# 1714 Q:

Where did you see them?

# 1715 A:

Where on her body?

# 1716 Q:

Yes.

# 1717 A:

(Indicating.) Underneath her arm and on her face.

# 1718 Q:

Which arm?

# 1719 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry. Indicating where on her arm?

# 1720 DENISE BROWN:

Underneath her arm (indicating).

# 1721 JOHN KELLY:

Indicating the top part of the arm.

# 1722 ROBERT BAKER:

The tricep area?

# 1723 DENISE BROWN:

(Indicating.) Right here.

# 1724 Q:

Which arm did you see the bruises on her tricep area after the 1-1-89 incident?

# 1725 A:

It was her right arm.

# 1726 Q:

How big was the bruise on her right arm after the 1-1 incident?

# 1727 A:

About like this (indicating).

# 1728 Q:

3 inches by 2 inches?

# 1729 JOHN KELLY:

I would say 3 by 3.

# 1730 Q:

3 inches by 3 inches?

# 1731 A:

Your guess is as good as mine.

# 1732 Q:

You just made --

# 1733 A:

Right.

# 1734 Q:

-- a showing of a circle.

# 1735 JOHN KELLY:

Say about a 3-by-3.

# 1736 DENISE BROWN:

I'll take your word for it.

# 1737 Q:

And where else did you see bruises on Nicole?

# 1738 A:

On her face.

# 1739 Q:

Where on her face did you see these bruises after the '89 incident?

# 1740 A:

On her forehead.

# 1741 Q:

Where on her forehead did you see these bruises after the incident?

# 1742 A:

On her forehead here (indicating). It was all swollen.

# 1743 Q:

Her entire forehead was swollen?

# 1744 A:

Well, her whole face was swollen and scratched.

# 1745 Q:

How big was the bruise on her forehead that you saw after the '89 incident?

# 1746 A:

(Indicating.) Probably about like this way (indicating).

# 1747 Q:

About 2 inches by 4 inches?

# 1748 A:

(Indicating.) However big this is.

# 1749 PHILLIP BAKER:

John, your measurements?

# 1750 DENISE BROWN:

How big is this (indicating), having a whole side of her face.

# 1751 JOHN KELLY:

Why don't we say 2 by 2 -- 1-1/2 by 1-1/2 or 2 by 2.

# 1752 DENISE BROWN:

Okay.

# 1753 Q:

Where did you see these bruises? Where were you located when you saw these?

# 1754 JOHN KELLY:

Where was she physically when she observed them on Nicole?

# 1755 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes, yes.

# 1756 DENISE BROWN:

I remember when I took the pictures of Nicole, I was upstairs in the Rockingham bathroom.

# 1757 Q:

You took pictures of Nicole to demonstrate the bruises she received after the '89 incident?

# 1758 A:

Right.

# 1759 Q:

How many pictures did you take?

# 1760 A:

2 Polaroids.

# 1761 Q:

You were standing in -- You took these pictures in which bathroom in the Rockingham estate?

# 1762 A:

Nicole's bathroom.

# 1763 Q:

Is that in one of the upstairs bedrooms?

# 1764 A:

In that master suite.

# 1765 Q:

Why did you take these pictures?

# 1766 A:

She asked me to.

# 1767 Q:

Whose Polaroid did you use?

# 1768 A:

Nicole's.

# 1769 Q:

She handed you the Polaroid?

# 1770 A:

She handed me the camera and said, "Will you take these pictures for me."

# 1771 Q:

Did she tell you why she wanted these pictures taken?

# 1772 A:

She wanted to have a record.

# 1773 Q:

She told you she wanted to have a record of the physical violence that O.J. had --

# 1774 A:

Not in so many words.

# 1775 JOHN KELLY:

Well, why don't you finish your question first, Mr. Baker.

# 1776 Q:

What did she tell you exactly? Why did she want to keep a record?

# 1777 A:

She didn't give me a why. She just told me she wanted to have the pictures.

# 1778 Q:

And did you ask her why?

# 1779 A:

No. She just wanted to have them.

# 1780 Q:

At that point did you believe that the reason she wanted the pictures was because she wanted to document O.J. hitting her?

# 1781 A:

I don't know what her reason behind it was.

# 1782 Q:

Did you ever think about it?

# 1783 A:

Did I?

# 1784 Q:

Yes.

# 1785 A:

Well, I'm sure that's what it was.

# 1786 Q:

And you knew that in 1989 when you took those pictures of her in the Rockingham bathroom, did you not?

# 1787 A:

I didn't know that, no, because she didn't tell me that. She just wanted to keep a record. That is all she said.

# 1788 JOHN KELLY:

Phil, let her finish.

# 1789 Q:

Well, did you ask her when she gave you this camera to take the pictures of her how she received the bruises?

# 1790 A:

She told me how she received the bruises, yes.

# 1791 Q:

What did she tell you?

# 1792 A:

She told me O.J. had hit her, O.J. had pulled her hair. That O.J. had chased her through the yard at Rockingham, O.J. had chased her through the house at Rockingham.

# 1793 Q:

Anything else?

# 1794 A:

That she tried to get away.

# 1795 Q:

Anything else?

# 1796 A:

That she called 911.

# 1797 Q:

Anything else?

# 1798 A:

And she wanted these pictures for a record.

# 1799 Q:

Did she tell you anything else about the night of New Year's Eve 1988?

# 1800 A:

She told me the reason, why they got into the fight.

# 1801 Q:

What did she tell you was the reason they got into a fight on New Year's Eve 1988?

# 1802 A:

Because she had found out that O.J. had given another girl a pair of earrings that looked just like hers.

# 1803 Q:

Who was this other girl?

# 1804 A:

I don't know.

# 1805 Q:

Did you ever ask Nicole when you were in the Rockingham estate taking these pictures who the other girl was that O.J. had given the earrings to that caused the 1-1-89 fight?

# 1806 A:

No.

# 1807 Q:

So she told you when you were taking these pictures at Rockingham that the incident was caused because O.J. had given earrings to another woman?

# 1808 A:

Yes.

# 1809 Q:

Did she tell you that she incited the argument, that she caused it by confronting O.J. about these earnings on 1-1-89?

# 1810 A:

I don't think that confronting somebody about earrings deserves a beating.

# 1811 JOHN KELLY:

Well, just answer the question.

# 1812 Q:

That's not my question. Did she tell you that, ma'am?

# 1813 A:

No.

# 1814 Q:

What else did she tell you about what was the incident?

# 1815 JOHN KELLY:

If anything.

# 1816 DENISE BROWN:

She didn't tell me anything.

# 1817 Q:

Well, did you ask her what started this incident?

# 1818 A:

I just told you, the earrings.

# 1819 Q:

And is that all she said about what caused the incident?

# 1820 A:

That is all she said.

# 1821 Q:

Did she say O.J. had been drinking the night of 1-1-89?

# 1822 A:

She didn't say anything.

# 1823 Q:

Did she tell you she had been drinking --

# 1824 A:

She didn't say --

# 1825 Q:

-- on the night of 1-1-89?

# 1826 A:

She didn't say.

# 1827 ROBERT BAKER:

12-31-88.

# 1828 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

12-31-88 I assume you mean. Just say "New Year's Eve."

# 1829 PHILLIP BAKER:

Okay.

# 1830 Q:

So she told you a couple days after this incident, the 1989 incident, that O.J. had hit her, pulled her hair, chased her through the yard, through the house of Rockingham. And that she had tried to leave and tried to call 911; correct?

# 1831 A:

Correct.

# 1832 Q:

And so you knew that O.J. was physically assaulting Nicole as of 1989; true?

# 1833 JOHN KELLY:

And this was -- Had assaulted her on New Year's Day?

# 1834 Q:

You had been informed by Nicole as early as 1989 that O.J. had physically assaulted her; true?

# 1835 A:

That '89 incident, true.

# 1836 Q:

When you granted an interview with the New York Times in the summer of 1994, you told the New York Times Nicole was not a battered woman; true?

# 1837 A:

True.

# 1838 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 1839 Q:

Did Nicole tell you she was falling-down drunk on New Year's Eve 1988?

# 1840 A:

No.

# 1841 Q:

Did she tell you anything about the New Year's Eve 1988 incident when you took those pictures?

# 1842 A:

No.

# 1843 Q:

Did you ever ask her -- Did you ask Nicole when you took these Polaroid photos a couple days after the '88 incident whether she was drunk that night?

# 1844 A:

No.

# 1845 JOHN KELLY:

Referring to this as the '89 incident?

# 1846 DENISE BROWN:

I thought it was the New Year's Eve incident.

# 1847 ROBERT BAKER:

All of the above.

# 1848 Q:

Did you ask her, just to make the record clear, when you were in Rockingham in 1989 whether she was drunk on the New Year's Eve incident?

# 1849 A:

No.

# 1850 Q:

Did she tell you of any other incidents of physical violence at the hands of O.J. prior to her death in 1994?

# 1851 A:

Not that I recall, no.

# 1852 Q:

Did you ever see Nicole drunk prior to her death in 1994?

# 1853 A:

In her whole lifetime?

# 1854 Q:

In the last 5 years of her life, last 6 years of her life.

# 1855 A:

Really drunk, no.

# 1856 Q:

When you say "really drunk," what do you mean?

# 1857 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 1858 Q:

Is really drunk to you falling-down drunk?

# 1859 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 1860 Q:

Is that what you meant? I've got to figure out what you mean.

# 1861 JOHN KELLY:

I am trying to figure out what you meant with the question first, and then we will try to figure out what she meant with the answer.

# 1862 ROBERT BAKER:

Over .08 blood alcohol.

# 1863 JOHN KELLY:

I don't think she ever took her sister's blood level, Bob, quite frankly.

# 1864 Q:

What did you mean by the term "really drunk"?

# 1865 A:

What do you mean by the term "really drunk"?

# 1866 Q:

You said it. I didn't.

# 1867 A:

Being really drunk means like being sloppily drunk, slurring words, like that, to me.

# 1868 Q:

So --

# 1869 A:

I have not seen Nicole like that.

# 1870 Q:

In the last 6 years of her life, you never saw her sloppily drunk?

# 1871 A:

No.

# 1872 Q:

Did you ever go out with Nicole socially in 1994?

# 1873 A:

I'm sure we did, but I don't recall.

# 1874 Q:

Did you ever go out with Nicole and Faye Resnick in 1994?

# 1875 A:

No.

# 1876 Q:

Have you ever seen Nicole use any drugs whatsoever?

# 1877 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 1878 PHILLIP BAKER:

Why not? KELLY: Because your client didn't answer it deposition so we are not going to have my client answer it either.

# 1879 ROBERT BAKER:

Totally different standard to that. PETROCELLI: And he actually did answer over his lawyers' objections.

# 1880 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 1881 ROBERT BAKER:

What basis? So we know.

# 1882 JOHN KELLY:

Absolutely no relevance.

# 1883 ROBERT BAKER:

No relevance to that?

# 1884 JOHN KELLY:

No, no. None whatsoever.

# 1885 ROBERT BAKER:

Okay. What law school did you go to, Mr. Kelly?

# 1886 JOHN KELLY:

Bob, we don't need your caustic comments, please.

# 1887 ROBERT BAKER:

I don't care what you need. Just trying to get a foundation for my motion.

# 1888 JOHN KELLY:

Go down to court and get your motion going on your perfect record down there.

# 1889 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Actually Phil's perfect record.

# 1890 DENISE BROWN:

Poor Judy. Stop.

# 1891 PHILLIP BAKER:

I take credit for batting below the Mendoza line.

# 1892 Q:

Did you ever see Nicole take any drugs in 1994?

# 1893 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 1894 Q:

Did you ever see Faye Resnick take any drugs?

# 1895 (Witness and counsel confer off the record.)

# 1896 JOHN KELLY:

Ask the question again.

# 1897 PHILLIP BAKER:

Let the record reflect that John has privately talked to Denise and received the answer he wanted. So now he'll let me --

# 1898 JOHN KELLY:

Would you like me to speak to you privately, Phil?

# 1899 ROBERT BAKER:

I would rather you didn't.

# 1900 JOHN KELLY:

I have no intention to.

# 1901 Q:

Did you ever see Nicole use drugs in 1994?

# 1902 A:

No.

# 1903 Q:

Did you ever see her use drugs in 1993?

# 1904 A:

No.

# 1905 Q:

Did you ever see her, Nicole, use drugs in the last 6 years of her life?

# 1906 A:

No.

# 1907 Q:

Did you ever see Faye Resnick use drugs?

# 1908 A:

No.

# 1909 Q:

Have you ever used drugs in the last 6 years of your life?

# 1910 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 1911 PHILLIP BAKER:

O. Have you ever used drugs -- ever use any drugs in 1994?

# 1912 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 1913 Q:

Did you ever use drugs in 1993?

# 1914 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 1915 Q:

Had you ever met Ron Shipp prior to June 12, 1994?

# 1916 A:

Ron Shipp?

# 1917 Q:

Yes.

# 1918 A:

Yes.

# 1919 Q:

How many times?

# 1920 A:

Many times.

# 1921 Q:

When was the first time you met Ron Shipp?

# 1922 A:

I don't remember the date.

# 1923 Q:

Was it 1993?

# 1924 A:

I -- No. It was way before.

# 1925 Q:

Did you meet him in the early 1990s?

# 1926 A:

I met him at the beginning of their relationship pretty much.

# 1927 Q:

Have you ever seen Ron Shipp use drugs?

# 1928 A:

No.

# 1929 Q:

Have you ever seen anyone use drugs?

# 1930 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that question.

# 1931 PHILLIP BAKER:

Did you instruct her?

# 1932 JOHN KELLY:

Yes, not to answer that.

# 1933 PHILLIP BAKER:

On what grounds?

# 1934 JOHN KELLY:

It's not relevant. If you have a very specific incident you want to ask whether there were drug observations --

# 1935 Q:

Have you ever met Rick James prior to June 12th, 1994?

# 1936 A:

Rick James? Once.

# 1937 Q:

When did you meet him?

# 1938 A:

Buffalo.

# 1939 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

In Buffalo, I think.

# 1940 Q:

Have you ever been in the same room with Rick James and Ron Shipp?

# 1941 A:

No.

# 1942 Q:

Have you ever dated Ron Shipp?

# 1943 A:

No.

# 1944 Q:

How did you first meet Ron Shipp?

# 1945 A:

As I recall, over at Rockingham.

# 1946 Q:

How many times would you say you were with Ron Shipp prior to June 12th, 1994?

# 1947 A:

Plenty of times, whenever I was over at their house.

# 1948 Q:

Is that more than 5? Is that more than 10?

# 1949 A:

Yes.

# 1950 JOHN KELLY:

Well, wait. Why don't we do one at a time, Phil.

# 1951 Q:

Have you seen Ron Shipp over at Rockingham more than 10 times?

# 1952 A:

I'm sure.

# 1953 Q:

Have you ever gone out with Ron Shipp alone?

# 1954 A:

No.

# 1955 Q:

How many times had you gone out socially with Ron Shipp prior to June 12, 1994?

# 1956 JOHN KELLY:

If at all.

# 1957 DENISE BROWN:

I don't think I ever did.

# 1958 Q:

Did you ever see Ron Shipp socially at a social occasion other than at Rockingham prior to June 12th, 1994?

# 1959 A:

Oh, I'm sure we have. I'm sure I have.

# 1960 Q:

Was Ron Shipp close to Nicole?

# 1961 A:

I think so, yeah.

# 1962 Q:

Did you ever go to Bundy and see Ron Shipp there?

# 1963 A:

Oh, gosh. Bundy, I don't think so.

# 1964 Q:

Did you ever see Ron Shipp over at Gretna Green, at the Gretna Green condominium?

# 1965 A:

I don't know. I really don't remember.

# 1966 Q:

Did you ever go out to nightclubs with Nicole in 1994?

# 1967 A:

It's possible.

# 1968 Q:

You have no independent recollection of ever going to a nightclub with Nicole in 1994?

# 1969 A:

I don't know if it was 1994.

# 1970 Q:

When is the last time you believe you went out socially with Nicole prior to June 12th, 1994?

# 1971 A:

I don't know the date, but I know I had been out with her.

# 1972 Q:

What is your last recollection of where you went out?

# 1973 A:

It was someplace in Santa Monic

# 1974 Q:

Do you recall the location?

# 1975 A:

No. I don't know the name of it.

# 1976 Q:

Was it a bar?

# 1977 A:

It was dancing.

# 1978 Q:

Was it the Renaissance, the Renaissance club?

# 1979 A:

No.

# 1980 Q:

Who was there with you?

# 1981 A:

Myself, Nicole, Marianna, Joseph, Jerry, Randy.

# 1982 Q:

Marianna who?

# 1983 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 1984 Q:

Joseph who?

# 1985 A:

I don't know Joseph's last name.

# 1986 Q:

Jerry who?

# 1987 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 1988 Q:

Randy who?

# 1989 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 1990 Q:

Was Faye Resnick with you?

# 1991 A:

No.

# 1992 Q:

Did you ever go out socially --

# 1993 A:

No.

# 1994 Q:

-- with Faye Resnick in 1994?

# 1995 A:

No.

# 1996 Q:

Have you read Faye Resnick's 2 books?

# 1997 A:

No.

# 1998 Q:

You didn't read the first book?

# 1999 A:

No.

# 2000 Q:

Have you heard what is contained in the book, the first book written by Faye Resnick?

# 2001 A:

No.

# 2002 Q:

Have you heard that Faye Resnick accused -not accused -- stated that she was involved in a physical relationship with Nicole?

# 2003 A:

Did I hear about that?

# 2004 Q:

Have you heard?

# 2005 A:

I have heard.

# 2006 Q:

What are your thoughts regarding that?

# 2007 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 2008 Q:

Well, you heard that your father described the book that Faye Resnick wrote, the first book, as so-called trash. Do you agree with that statement?

# 2009 A:

I don't know. I didn't read it.

# 2010 Q:

Do you agree -- You have no thoughts about her accusation she was involved in a physical relationship -- that Faye Resnick was involved in a physical relationship with Nicole?

# 2011 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry. That is an accusation?

# 2012 PHILLIP BAKER:

That is a statement made by Faye Resnick.

# 2013 DENISE BROWN:

What was the question?

# 2014 Q:

Do you have any thoughts about that?

# 2015 A:

I don't believe it.

# 2016 Q:

Do you believe Faye Resnick was a close friend prior to her death in 1994?

# 2017 A:

I don't know. I never met Faye Resnick.

# 2018 Q:

Were you at Bundy -- How often were you at May and April and June of 1994?

# 2019 A:

Only a few times. Not too many.

# 2020 Q:

Have you ever spoken to Faye Resnick after 1994?

# 2021 A:

No.

# 2022 Q:

Has Faye Resnick ever tried to contact you, as far as you know?

# 2023 A:

No. Not that I know.

# 2024 Q:

Ever spoken with her over the telephone, with Faye Resnick, at any time?

# 2025 A:

I think once.

# 2026 Q:

When was that?

# 2027 A:

Just after the murder. I think.

# 2028 Q:

Did you --

# 2029 A:

Yeah.

# 2030 Q:

Did you call her or did she call you?

# 2031 A:

I -- I don't remember.

# 2032 Q:

Where were you when you were on the phone with Faye Resnick?

# 2033 A:

At my mom's house.

# 2034 Q:

What do you recall about the conversation you had with Faye Resnick following --

# 2035 A:

Well, I don't -- Sorry.

# 2036 JOHN KELLY:

Let him finish.

# 2037 Q:

-- following June of 1994?

# 2038 JOHN KELLY:

Judy, I'm sorry. Could you read that last question back, please.

# 2039 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 2040 DENISE BROWN:

So your question is what do I recall?

# 2041 JOHN KELLY:

Could you rephrase the question, Phil.

# 2042 Q:

What do you recall about the conversation you had with Faye Resnick following June of 1994?

# 2043 ROBERT BAKER:

June 12th?

# 2044 PHILLIP BAKER:

June 12th, 1994.

# 2045 DENISE BROWN:

The only thing I recall is she was very upset, and she was very sorry that this had happened. And we were talking. We couldn't believe it. We were in shock.

# 2046 Q:

How long after Nicole's death did this conversation ensue?

# 2047 A:

Just a couple of days, I think.

# 2048 Q:

Was it before the funeral?

# 2049 A:

I think so.

# 2050 Q:

Did she attend the funeral?

# 2051 A:

Yes.

# 2052 Q:

Was she still in rehab when you talked to her June 12th, 1994?

# 2053 A:

Yes.

# 2054 Q:

Do you know why she was receiving treatment?

# 2055 A:

I had heard --

# 2056 JOHN KELLY:

Did she know then or does she know now?

# 2057 Q:

Did you know then?

# 2058 A:

No.

# 2059 Q:

Do you know why she was receiving treatment?

# 2060 A:

Drugs.

# 2061 Q:

How long did this conversation take place?

# 2062 A:

Just a couple of minutes.

# 2063 Q:

Did you know when you had this conversation following June 12th, 1994, that she had been living with your sister?

# 2064 A:

No.

# 2065 Q:

You didn't go to the intervention that Nicole held for Faye, did you?

# 2066 A:

I don't know what it is.

# 2067 Q:

So the answer is "no"?

# 2068 A:

No.

# 2069 Q:

Had Nicole mentioned Faye Resnick's name to you prior to June 12th, 1994?

# 2070 A:

No.

# 2071 Q:

You had never heard that name until after her death?

# 2072 A:

I take that back. I think she may have mentioned her name.

# 2073 JOHN KELLY:

Wait. Who had mentioned who's name?

# 2074 DENISE BROWN:

Nicole mentioned Faye's name.

# 2075 Q:

Do you recall when she --

# 2076 A:

No.

# 2077 Q:

-- may have mentioned Faye's name?

# 2078 A:

No.

# 2079 Q:

Do you recall what she said about Faye when she mentioned Faye's name?

# 2080 A:

No.

# 2081 Q:

You don't? You just recall that maybe Nicole may have mentioned Faye's name prior to her death?

# 2082 A:

Possibly.

# 2083 Q:

But you are not sure if she did or didn't?

# 2084 A:

No.

# 2085 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. Answered again.

# 2086 (Interruption in proceedings.)

# 2087 Q:

Did you know Candace Garvey prior to Nicole's death in June 1994?

# 2088 A:

Not very well.

# 2089 Q:

Was she a close friend, in your opinion, of Nicole's prior to her death?

# 2090 A:

I don't know how close.

# 2091 Q:

Did you ever go out socially with Nicole and Candace Garvey prior to her death?

# 2092 A:

I did not.

# 2093 Q:

Who, in your opinion, would you describe as Nicole's --

# 2094 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry. Who in her opinion?

# 2095 PHILLIP BAKER:

Let me ask the question again.

# 2096 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry, Phil.

# 2097 Q:

Who, in your opinion, would you describe as Nicole's best friends prior to June 1994?

# 2098 JOHN KELLY:

Right in that time period?

# 2099 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 2100 DENISE BROWN:

What time period, though?

# 2101 Q:

Prior to her death, June 1994, who, in your opinion, would you describe as Nicole's best friend?

# 2102 A:

None of those people.

# 2103 ROBERT BAKER:

The judge will see us tomorrow at 11:30 relative to your objections. Since you won't stipulate, he'll see us tomorrow morning at 11:30.

# 2104 Q:

Who would you describe as her best friends prior to her death in June 1994?

# 2105 DENISE BROWN:

Can I ask you a question?

# 2106 JOHN KELLY:

Yes, sure.

# 2107 (Witness and counsel confer off the record.)

# 2108 Q:

You can answer.

# 2109 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry, Judy. Can you read the question back again, and answer.

# 2110 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 2111 DENISE BROWN:

I think Nicole's closest friends were probably Linda[Name Deleted]. , Pam [Name Deleted]. Those were truly good friends.

# 2112 Q:

Linda [Name Deleted] and Pam [Name Deleted]?

# 2113 A:

Right.

# 2114 Q:

When was the last time you saw Linda [Name Deleted] prior to Nicole's death?

# 2115 A:

The last time I saw Linda?

# 2116 Q:

Yes.

# 2117 A:

Oh, I don't know. It had been awhile.

# 2118 Q:

What is "awhile," over 6 months?

# 2119 A:

Yes.

# 2120 Q:

Over a year?

# 2121 A:

I -- Possibly.

# 2122 Q:

When is the last time you saw Pam [Name Deleted] prior to Nicole's death?

# 2123 A:

I didn't -- I hadn't seen Pam in a while.

# 2124 Q:

I --

# 2125 A:

I hadn't seen Pam in a while.

# 2126 Q:

Was that over a year?

# 2127 A:

Yeah.

# 2128 Q:

Do you know if there was any breakdown in the friendship between Nicole and Linda prior to her death?

# 2129 A:

I don't know.

# 2130 Q:

Any breakdown between Nicole and Pam prior to Nicole's death?

# 2131 A:

I don't know.

# 2132 Q:

Would you describe Cora Fischman as a close friend of Nicole's prior to her death?

# 2133 A:

I would describe Cora as a running partner.

# 2134 Q:

That wasn't the question. Would you describe her as a close friend of Nicole's prior to her death?

# 2135 JOHN KELLY:

If you know.

# 2136 DENISE BROWN:

Not that I know.

# 2137 Q:

When is the last time you talked to Cora Fischman?

# 2138 A:

Actually talk to her, probably before Nicole's murder.

# 2139 Q:

You are upset with Cora Fischman, are you not?

# 2140 A:

I don't have any feelings.

# 2141 Q:

You have no feelings at all whatsoever toward Cora Fischman presently?

# 2142 A:

No.

# 2143 Q:

You are not upset that she believes O.J. is innocent of the crimes committed June 12, 1994?

# 2144 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I believe that misstates her testimony and her position.

# 2145 DENISE BROWN:

I have no feelings toward Cora Fischman.

# 2146 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 2147 Q:

How close were you to Nicole in the last 6 months of her life?

# 2148 A:

How what -- What do you mean, "how"?

# 2149 Q:

How many times a week would you talk to Nicole in the last 6 months of her life?

# 2150 A:

Probably about 3 or 4 times a week.

# 2151 Q:

How often would you go out with her socially in the last 6 months of her life?

# 2152 A:

Not too often.

# 2153 Q:

Is "not too often" once a month? once a week? What does that mean to you?

# 2154 A:

That means I lived in Laguna Beach, and she lived in Los Angeles.

# 2155 Q:

In the last 6 months of her life, did you ever go out socially with Nicole?

# 2156 A:

I don't recall.

# 2157 Q:

In the last year of her life, do you have any recollection -- last year of her life, do you have any recollection of going out socially with Nicole?

# 2158 A:

Possibly.

# 2159 Q:

What do you recall?

# 2160 A:

That -- The one incident I just told you about with Randy and Jerry and Mariann

# 2161 Q:

That's the only social event that you can recall as you sit here today that you had with Nicole in the last year of her life?

# 2162 JOHN KELLY:

Well, Phil, are you including family events?

# 2163 PHILLIP BAKER:

No.

# 2164 JOHN KELLY:

You are not including family events?

# 2165 PHILLIP BAKER:

No.

# 2166 DENISE BROWN:

He's just talking about going out at night?

# 2167 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

You should be clear on that.

# 2168 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 2169 Q:

Did --

# 2170 A:

You are talking about going out at night?

# 2171 Q:

Yes.

# 2172 A:

Going out to a public place?

# 2173 Q:

Yes.

# 2174 A:

That's the only one I really remember.

# 2175 Q:

In the last year of Nicole's life?

# 2176 A:

That's the one that stands out in my head.

# 2177 Q:

Did you see less of Nicole following her divorce from O.J. in 1992?

# 2178 A:

Did I see less of her?

# 2179 Q:

Yes.

# 2180 JOHN KELLY:

Than when?

# 2181 PHILLIP BAKER:

Prior to her divorce in 1992.

# 2182 DENISE BROWN:

It always varied.

# 2183 Q:

Did you see more of her following her divorce from O.J. in 1992?

# 2184 A:

No.

# 2185 Q:

Between 1992 and 1994, did you ever go shopping with Nicole, that you recall?

# 2186 A:

I don't recall.

# 2187 Q:

Did you ever go jogging with Nicole between 1992 and 1994, that you recall?

# 2188 A:

Yes.

# 2189 Q:

How many times --

# 2190 JOHN KELLY:

Total --

# 2191 Q:

-- would you estimate?

# 2192 ROBERT BAKER:

Total in miles.

# 2193 JOHN KELLY:

For 1 or for 2 years?

# 2194 DENISE BROWN:

I'm sorry.

# 2195 Q:

How many times would you estimate that you went jogging with Nicole between 1992 and 1994?

# 2196 A:

Just a couple of times. 2, 3.

# 2197 Q:

Is a couple -- Okay. Isn't it true you more or less only saw Nicole during family functions between 1992 and 1994?

# 2198 A:

No.

# 2199 Q:

How many times other than family functions had you seen Nicole between 1992 and 1994?

# 2200 A:

I don't know how many times, but I spent the night at her house.

# 2201 Q:

How many times did you spend the night at her house between 1992 and 1994?

# 2202 A:

I don't recall the number of times.

# 2203 Q:

Would it be over 5?

# 2204 A:

Yes.

# 2205 Q:

Would it be over 10?

# 2206 A:

Possibly.

# 2207 Q:

Would it be over 20?

# 2208 A:

I don't know.

# 2209 Q:

How many times did you spend at Nicole's -- Strike that. How many nights did you spend at Nicole's condominium on Bundy in 1994?

# 2210 A:

On Bundy, not too often.

# 2211 Q:

Well, can you give me an estimate of how many nights you spent at Bundy in 1994?

# 2212 A:

Bundy, only a couple of times.

# 2213 Q:

In 1994?

# 2214 A:

If it was in 1994.

# 2215 Q:

So you have no independent recollection of spending the night at any time in 1994 at the Bundy condominium as you sit here today?

# 2216 A:

You know what, I don't know when she got the Bundy condominium.

# 2217 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

January of 1994.

# 2218 ROBERT BAKER:

You are not supposed to be testifying.

# 2219 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Just helping out, Mr. Baker.

# 2220 DENISE BROWN:

I spent the night a couple of nights at Bundy, yes.

# 2221 Q:

Did Nicole tell you in 1993 and 1994, for example, who she was dating?

# 2222 JOHN KELLY:

In 1993 and 1994?

# 2223 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 2224 Q:

Would she tell you about who she was dating in 1994?

# 2225 JOHN KELLY:

If anybody.

# 2226 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know about in 1994.

# 2227 Q:

Did she ever talk to you about how she was dating Keith Zlomsovich?

# 2228 A:

Tell me how --

# 2229 JOHN KELLY:

Rephrase that question. How? How she was dating him?

# 2230 Q:

Did she tell you about her relationship when she was dating Keith Zlomsovich?

# 2231 JOHN KELLY:

You mean if she was dating Keith?

# 2232 DENISE BROWN:

That she was dating him or about the relationship or --

# 2233 Q:

Did she tell you she was dating him?

# 2234 A:

Yes.

# 2235 Q:

She would tell you about who she was dating and who her boyfriends were in 1993 and 1994?

# 2236 A:

I don't know about the dates.

# 2237 Q:

But I mean, you were close enough in 1993 and 1994 that she would tell you what was going on with her life and who she was dating; correct?

# 2238 A:

Yeah. I've met a few.

# 2239 Q:

Who have you met?

# 2240 A:

Brett, Keith, Joseph, Alex.

# 2241 Q:

What is Alex's last name?

# 2242 A:

I don't know.

# 2243 Q:

What is Joseph's last name?

# 2244 A:

That I don't know either.

# 2245 Q:

When you say "Brett," do you mean Brett [Name Deleted]?

# 2246 A:

I think that was it.

# 2247 Q:

When was she dating Alex, as far as you know?

# 2248 A:

I don't remember the dates.

# 2249 Q:

Was it in 1993?

# 2250 A:

I don't know.

# 2251 Q:

Do you know if it was in 1994?

# 2252 A:

I don't know.

# 2253 Q:

What did she tell you about her relationship with Alex?

# 2254 A:

That they were friends, good friends.

# 2255 Q:

Did she tell you they had a physical relationship?

# 2256 A:

She didn't say.

# 2257 Q:

Did she tell you that she was dating Alex?

# 2258 A:

She said that they were friends and they would go out.

# 2259 Q:

Did she tell you how the relationship ended with Alex?

# 2260 A:

No.

# 2261 Q:

What did she tell you about her relationship with Joseph?

# 2262 A:

That she was dating Joseph and that she liked him very much.

# 2263 Q:

Did she tell you when she was dating Joseph?

# 2264 A:

No.

# 2265 JOHN KELLY:

You mean at the time she was dating him, did she tell Denise she was dating him?

# 2266 Q:

Do you recall when she was dating Joseph?

# 2267 A:

The date? No.

# 2268 Q:

Do you recall, did she tell you if she had a physical relationship with Joseph?

# 2269 A:

We didn't talk about that.

# 2270 Q:

Did she tell you how the relationship ended with Joseph?

# 2271 A:

No.

# 2272 Q:

Did she tell you -- When did she tell you she was dating Brett [Name Deleted]?

# 2273 A:

I don't know when. I don't know the date.

# 2274 Q:

Did she ever tell you how long she was dating Brett [Name Deleted]?

# 2275 A:

It was for a while. A few months. I'm not sure.

# 2276 Q:

Did she tell you how the relationship ended?

# 2277 A:

He broke up with her.

# 2278 Q:

Did she tell you why he broke up with her, that is, Brett [Name Deleted]?

# 2279 A:

I don't recall.

# 2280 Q:

How long do you know that she dated Keith Zlomsovich?

# 2281 A:

How long did she date him? I don't know.

# 2282 Q:

Did she tell you how the relationship ended with Keith?

# 2283 A:

No.

# 2284 Q:

Did she tell you if she had a physical relationship with Keith?

# 2285 A:

No.

# 2286 Q:

Is there anybody you recall -- anybody other than Brett, Keith, Joseph and Alex -- that she dated in the last year and a half of her life?

# 2287 A:

No.

# 2288 Q:

Did she ever tell you about her relationship with Marcus Allen?

# 2289 A:

No.

# 2290 Q:

She never discussed with you whether she had a physical relationship with Marcus Allen?

# 2291 A:

No.

# 2292 Q:

Did she ever tell you she was seeing Marcus Allen in May of 1994?

# 2293 A:

No.

# 2294 Q:

As far as you knew prior to her death, she was simply friends with Marcus Allen?

# 2295 A:

I didn't know that they even spoke.

# 2296 Q:

Had you ever met Marcus Allen before?

# 2297 A:

Oh, yeah.

# 2298 Q:

Where did you meet him?

# 2299 A:

At Rockingham.

# 2300 Q:

You never saw Marcus Allen and Nicole speaking to one another?

# 2301 (Indicating. )

# 2302 Q:

Did you ever see Marcus Allen and Nicole speaking to one another?

# 2303 A:

Sure. At Rockingham.

# 2304 Q:

Did you ever visit the Bundy condominium in 1994 and see Marcus Allen there?

# 2305 A:

No.

# 2306 Q:

How many times would you say you were in the Bundy condominium prior to Nicole's death?

# 2307 A:

A dozen, 2 dozen times.

# 2308 Q:

When you went to Bundy between a dozen and 2 dozen times in 1994, do you recall seeing any of Nicole's friends there?

# 2309 A:

Yes.

# 2310 Q:

Which friends did you see at the Bundy condominium when you visited her in 1994?

# 2311 A:

I don't know if it was in 1994. Oh, yeah, it must have been. She bought it in 1994. Okay. She had a party there, and who was there, a lot of her friends.

# 2312 Q:

Other than that party, which friends of Nicole's did you see at her condominium in 1994?

# 2313 A:

Cor

# 2314 Q:

Anyone else?

# 2315 A:

Other than the party?

# 2316 Q:

Yes.

# 2317 A:

I don't remember.

# 2318 Q:

Did you ever see Kato Kaelin at the Bundy condominium in 1994?

# 2319 A:

Bundy, no. Yes. wait. Yes, I did.

# 2320 Q:

When did you see him at the Bundy condominium?

# 2321 A:

At the Bundy -- Yes, it was Bundy. I don't remember when.

# 2322 Q:

What was he doing when you saw him at the Bundy condominium in 1994?

# 2323 A:

He was walking out the door.

# 2324 Q:

Did Kato Kaelin say anything to you when he was walking out the door in 1994 at the Bundy condominium?

# 2325 A:

I was just introduced to him.

# 2326 Q:

Did Nicole introduce you to Kato?

# 2327 A:

Yes.

# 2328 Q:

What did she say?

# 2329 A:

"This is Kato. This is Denise." "Hi." "Good-bye."

# 2330 Q:

That is the extent of the conversation you had with Kato Kaelin in 1994 at the Bundy condominium?

# 2331 A:

Yes.

# 2332 Q:

Did she ever tell you that Kato Kaelin was living at the Bundy condominium?

# 2333 A:

In the guesthouse.

# 2334 Q:

When did she tell you he was living in the guesthouse at the Bundy condominium?

# 2335 A:

I don't know when.

# 2336 Q:

Did she ever --

# 2337 JOHN KELLY:

Just a minute

# 2338 (Witness and counsel confer off the record.)

# 2339 ROBERT BAKER:

Did your lawyer tell you to change your answer?

# 2340 DENISE BROWN:

No, but I had the 2 places confused. Sorry. There was no guesthouse at Bundy.

# 2341 Q:

When was this party at the Bundy condominium that Nicole had?

# 2342 A:

I had that confused, too. It was at Gretna Green. sorry

# 2343 Q:

When was this party at the Gretna Green condominium?

# 2344 A:

When was it?

# 2345 Q:

Yes.

# 2346 A:

I don't remember.

# 2347 Q:

Was it in 1993?

# 2348 A:

I don't remember what year it was.

# 2349 JOHN KELLY:

She wants to correct something on the record.

# 2350 DENISE BROWN:

Yeah. The Kato incident was in Gretna Green.

# 2351 Q:

The dozen or so times -- dozen or 2 dozen times you visited the Bundy condominium, did you mean the Gretna Green condominium?

# 2352 A:

No. I had been to the Bundy place, but I had been more often to the Gretna Green place.

# 2353 Q:

When you were -- how many times were -- Just so the record is clear, how many times were you at the Bundy condominium?

# 2354 A:

The Bundy, probably about a half dozen, dozen times.

# 2355 Q:

How many times would you say you were at the Gretna Green condominium?

# 2356 A:

That is where I used to spend the night quite a bit.

# 2357 Q:

Did you ever spend the night at the Bundy condominium?

# 2358 A:

A couple of times.

# 2359 Q:

How many times would you say you spent the night at Gretna Green?

# 2360 A:

Pretty often. (Indicating.) Well, because I used to work up in Torrance.

# 2361 Q:

Is that over 50 times?

# 2362 A:

I don't know.

# 2363 Q:

Is it over 10 times?

# 2364 A:

It's over 10 times, yes.

# 2365 Q:

Over 20 times?

# 2366 A:

Possibly.

# 2367 Q:

How many people were at this party at the Gretna Green condominium?

# 2368 A:

Oh, I don't know, maybe 20, 30.

# 2369 Q:

To the best of your recollection, tell me who you recall attending the Gretna Green condominium party.

# 2370 A:

Oh, gosh. Randy was there. If I have to remember last names, it's going to be tough. Okay. Randy,

A.C., Vickie, Keith, his fiancee at the time, Joseph. Oh, I don't -- I don't know. A lot more people, though, but I'm not sure who.

# 2371 Q:

Was Cora at the Gretna Green party?

# 2372 A:

I think she showed up late.

# 2373 Q:

Was O.J. at the Gretna Green party?

# 2374 A:

No.

# 2375 Q:

Was Ron Shipp at the Gretna Green party?

# 2376 A:

Not that I recall.

# 2377 Q:

Was Faye Resnick at the Gretna Green party?

# 2378 A:

Not that I recall.

# 2379 Q:

Was C.Z. at the Gretna Green party?

# 2380 A:

Possibly.

# 2381 Q:

Did you see any drugs being used at this Gretna Green party?

# 2382 A:

No.

# 2383 Q:

What was being served at the Gretna Green party?

# 2384 JOHN KELLY:

In terms of food and liquor?

# 2385 PHILLIP BAKER:

Food and liquor.

# 2386 JOHN KELLY:

If you know.

# 2387 DENISE BROWN:

What was being served? I know she had a big cake.

# 2388 Q:

Were drinks being served?

# 2389 A:

Yes, but -- Whatever they wanted, I guess.

# 2390 Q:

There was an open bar at the Gretna Green party?

# 2391 A:

Yeah.

# 2392 Q:

What was the cake for? Was it someone's birthday, as far as you recall?

# 2393 A:

I think it was -- It was an engagement party for Keith.

# 2394 Q:

Do you know where Sydney and Justin were on the night of the Gretna Green party?

# 2395 A:

They were there.

# 2396 Q:

They were in the room where the party was --

# 2397 A:

Well, they were running around with their friends.

# 2398 Q:

Which friends of Sydney and Justin were there, if you recall?

# 2399 A:

You know what, I don't recall. I sure remember seeing kids running around.

# 2400 Q:

Were Cora Fischman's children running around on the night of the Gretna Green party?

# 2401 A:

Could be.

# 2402 Q:

Was Marcus Allen at the Gretna Green party?

# 2403 A:

No.

# 2404 Q:

Did you ever attend any party that Nicole had at the Bundy condominium?

# 2405 JOHN KELLY:

Including family?

# 2406 PHILLIP BAKER:

Including family.

# 2407 DENISE BROWN:

Including family? I -- I don't think so.

# 2408 Q:

Did you ever see O.J. and Nicole get in a fight at a family function in Laguna Beach?

# 2409 JOHN KELLY:

What, physical fight? Verbal fight?

# 2410 PHILLIP BAKER:

Verbal or physical.

# 2411 Q:

Did you ever see them get into an argument at a family function in Laguna Beach?

# 2412 A:

In Laguna?

# 2413 JOHN KELLY:

You mean at their house?

# 2414 DENISE BROWN:

At my mom and dad's house?

# 2415 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes. Monarch Bay.

# 2416 DENISE BROWN:

Not that I recall, no.

# 2417 Q:

You certainly never saw O.J. physically assault Nicole at any time at your parents' home; correct?

# 2418 A:

I never saw it. I heard about it.

# 2419 Q:

The answer is correct?

# 2420 A:

I never saw it at the -- at the Monarch Bay house, no.

# 2421 Q:

Where did you hear about physical assault occurring from O.J. to Nicole at your parents' home?

# 2422 A:

It didn't happen at my parents' home. It happened at their condominium in Dana Point.

# 2423 Q:

How did you hear about this?

# 2424 A:

Nicole told me.

# 2425 Q:

What did she tell you?

# 2426 A:

She told me he was laying on top of her screaming, his veins bulging out of his neck, offering her $5,000 to sleep with her.

# 2427 Q:

Did you ever tell the police about this $5,000 incident?

# 2428 A:

No.

# 2429 Q:

Did you ever talk to your mom within the last 2 weeks about this $5,000 incident?

# 2430 A:

No.

# 2431 Q:

Did you ever talk to Dominique about this $5,000 incident?

# 2432 A:

No.

# 2433 Q:

Did you ever talk to Geraldo Rivera about this $5,000 incident?

# 2434 A:

No.

# 2435 Q:

By the way, how many times have you met Geraldo Rivera?

# 2436 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 2437 PHILLIP BAKER:

Why aren't you going to --

# 2438 JOHN KELLY:

Tell me why you are asking it first.

# 2439 PHILLIP BAKER:

If she has any sort of relationship whatsoever with a man who obtains a portion of his income from persecuting my client, it's very relevant to this case.

# 2440 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 2441 Q:

How would you describe your relationship with Geraldo Rivera?

# 2442 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 2443 Q:

Have you ever had a physical relationship with Geraldo Rivera?

# 2444 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 2445 Q:

Have you ever traveled with Geraldo Rivera?

# 2446 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 2447 Q:

Have you ever traveled on Geraldo Rivera's helicopter?

# 2448 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 2449 Q:

Have you ever met Geraldo Rivera's wife?

# 2450 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 2451 Q:

How many times have you been on the Geraldo Rivera show?

# 2452 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it. You can ask her about being on the show.

# 2453 Q:

How many times have you been on the Geraldo Rivera show?

# 2454 A:

Which show?

# 2455 Q:

His CNBC trash-O.J. show.

# 2456 JOHN KELLY:

Do you want to rephrase that?

# 2457 ROBERT BAKER:

No, we don't.

# 2458 DENISE BROWN:

I never heard of that show before.

# 2459 JOHN KELLY:

Unbiased, clear news program he has every night.

# 2460 Q:

How many times have you been on his CNBC show?

# 2461 A:

Once, twice, 2 -- possibly 3 times.

# 2462 Q:

When was the first time you appeared on Geraldo Rivera's CNBC show?

# 2463 A:

I don't know dates. I am really bad with dates.

# 2464 Q:

Isn't it true you appeared on the Geraldo Rivera show --

# 2465 ROBERT BAKER:

Here it is (indicating).

# 2466 Q:

-- in December of 1994?

# 2467 JOHN KELLY:

Can we have a date on that?

# 2468 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know.

# 2469 JOHN KELLY:

A date?

# 2470 Q:

In December of 1994.

# 2471 A:

I don't know.

# 2472 Q:

Well, you recall the show where you appeared on Geraldo Rivera where you were -- What was the term? -- fighting mad? Do you recall that show?

# 2473 A:

What was that show?

# 2474 Q:

Where you were fighting mad.

# 2475 A:

Oh, I don't know.

# 2476 Q:

Do you ever recall telling O.J. that -- ever recall telling Geraldo that you were fighting mad?

# 2477 JOHN KELLY:

In December of 1994?

# 2478 PHILLIP BAKER:

At any time on his -- on his television show.

# 2479 DENISE BROWN:

Fighting mad?

# 2480 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 2481 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know, but I was mad, yes. I don't remember dates.

# 2482 Q:

You were upset when you first appeared on the Geraldo Rivera CNBC show, I believe you stated, because you were angry with the comments being made by Robert Shapiro, his defense attorney; correct?

# 2483 A:

No. I don't recall if that was the first time.

# 2484 Q:

Did you ever mention this $5,000 incident on the Geraldo Rivera show?

# 2485 A:

No. I don't think so.

# 2486 Q:

Did you ever mention it in any interview -- Well, when was the first time you have mentioned this $5,000 incident?

# 2487 ROBERT BAKER:

Alleged $5,000 incident.

# 2488 DENISE BROWN:

When was the first time I ever mentioned it?

# 2489 Q:

Did you ever tell any police officer at all about this $5,000 incident?

# 2490 A:

I don't think so.

# 2491 Q:

Did you ever tell any district attorney or anyone associated with the district attorney's office about this $5,000?

# 2492 A:

I think I did.

# 2493 Q:

Who?

# 2494 A:

I think it was Marcia and Bill, but I am not positive.

# 2495 Q:

So you are not sure if you told any district attorney or representatives --

# 2496 A:

I could have.

# 2497 Q:

When you say "Marcia and Bill," who do you mean?

# 2498 A:

I could have --

# 2499 Q:

Marcia Clark and Bill Hodgman; correct?

# 2500 A:

Yes. But I'm pretty sure I did.

# 2501 Q:

Where were you when you told Marcia and Bill about this $5,000 incident?

# 2502 A:

I told Marcia and Bill in their office.

# 2503 Q:

Were they taking notes?

# 2504 A:

Were they taking notes?

# 2505 Q:

Yes.

# 2506 A:

I think so.

# 2507 Q:

Was the conversation being tape-recorded?

# 2508 A:

That I don't remember.

# 2509 Q:

The CNBC show where you first appeared --

# 2510 A:

Uh-huh.

# 2511 Q:

-- on Geraldo on November 29, 1994 --

# 2512 JOHN KELLY:

Wait. Can I see what you are referring to. She never testified --

# 2513 ROBERT BAKER:

You don't have to show them that Don't show them.

# 2514 JOHN KELLY:

Why don't we lay a proper foundation then, Phil, see if she recalls such --

# 2515 Q:

Do you recall being on the Geraldo -- Here is the name of that show, Rivera Live -- the Rivera Live show -- in November of 1994, saying, "I am fighting mad"?

# 2516 A:

It's possible.

# 2517 Q:

You don't have any independent recollection as you sit here today of saying that, though; correct?

# 2518 A:

I -- No. But it's possible.

# 2519 PHILLIP BAKER:

Why don't we take a lunch break for about an hour.

# 2520 (The lunch recess is taken.)

# 2521 Q:

Let's go back to this $5,000 incident. When did that occur?

# 2522 A:

$5,000 incident --

# 2523 JOHN KELLY:

The incident or when she was told of it?

# 2524 PHILLIP BAKER:

When she was told about it.

# 2525 Q:

When I am referring to the $5,000 incident, so the record is clear, I am talking about this time when O.J. allegedly offered $5,000 to have sex with Nicole. Just so you are clear.

# 2526 A:

Okay.

# 2527 Q:

When did you hear about the $5,000 incident?

# 2528 A:

May 8th.

# 2529 Q:

What year?

# 2530 A:

1994.

# 2531 Q:

Where were you?

# 2532 A:

At my mom's house.

# 2533 Q:

How did you hear about it?

# 2534 A:

Nicole.

# 2535 Q:

Who was in the room when she told you about this incident?

# 2536 A:

I don't know.

# 2537 Q:

Was Dominique in the room when Nicole told you about this incident?

# 2538 A:

I think it was just between her and me.

# 2539 Q:

Judithia was not in the room when --

# 2540 A:

I don't think she was there either.

# 2541 Q:

Judithia was not in the room when Nicole told you about this incident?

# 2542 A:

Not that I recall.

# 2543 Q:

When did Nicole say this incident happened, the $5,000 offer?

# 2544 A:

That -- The night before.

# 2545 Q:

So May 7th, 1994?

# 2546 A:

Yes.

# 2547 Q:

And --

# 2548 JOHN KELLY:

Do you have a calendar or something? Do you know if that was the date?

# 2549 DENISE BROWN:

Yes, I'm positive.

# 2550 JOHN KELLY:

May 7th?

# 2551 DENISE BROWN:

May 7th.

# 2552 Q:

Why are you so sure of these dates?

# 2553 A:

Because it was my son's first Holy Communion, May 7th.

# 2554 Q:

Your son Sean?

# 2555 A:

Yes.

# 2556 Q:

How old is your son Sean?

# 2557 A:

He's 9.

# 2558 Q:

Where did Nicole tell you about the $5,000 offer?

# 2559 A:

At my mom's house.

# 2560 Q:

What room?

# 2561 A:

I think we were outside on the courtyard.

# 2562 Q:

Do you know if Nicole ever told Judithia about the $5,000 incident?

# 2563 A:

I don't know.

# 2564 Q:

Do you know if Nicole ever told Dominique about the $5,000 incident?

# 2565 A:

I don't know.

# 2566 Q:

Do you know if Nicole ever told your father, Lou, about the $5,000 incident?

# 2567 A:

I don't know.

# 2568 Q:

Did you ever discuss the $5,000 incident with any member of your family other than Nicole?

# 2569 A:

No.

# 2570 Q:

You never told your mother about this offer that O.J. allegedly made to have sex with your sister?

# 2571 A:

No. It was between Nicole and I.

# 2572 Q:

And you were disgusted when you -- And you were disgusted when you heard this story?

# 2573 A:

Absolutely.

# 2574 Q:

And you thought O.J. Simpson was a pig when you heard this about this $5,000 offer to have sex with Nicole, didn't you?

# 2575 A:

Yes.

# 2576 Q:

And who did you tell in May of 1994 about this $5,000 incident?

# 2577 A:

Nobody.

# 2578 Q:

What members of the L.

# 2579 A:

Police Department did you ever tell about this $5,000 offer to Nicole?

# 2580 A:

Nobody.

# 2581 Q:

And you are not even sure if you told any district attorneys about the $5,000 offer?

# 2582 A:

Marcia and Bill.

# 2583 Q:

You are sure you told Marcia?

# 2584 A:

I am almost positive.

# 2585 Q:

Are you positive you told Marcia Clark and Bill Hodgman about the $5,000 offer?

# 2586 A:

Almost positive.

# 2587 Q:

When did you tell them about the $5,000 offer, Marcia and Bill?

# 2588 JOHN KELLY:

If you did.

# 2589 DENISE BROWN:

When I went up to speak to them, and I don't remember the date.

# 2590 Q:

Was that before O.J. Simpson was arrested or after O.J. Simpson was arrested that you talked to Marcia and Bill about the $5,000 offer?

# 2591 A:

It was after.

# 2592 Q:

Was it before the preliminary hearing or after the preliminary hearing that you allegedly told Marcia and Bill about the $5,000 offer?

# 2593 A:

That I don't remember.

# 2594 Q:

Do you know if it was before the criminal trial or after the criminal -- Do you know if it was before or after the criminal trial that you told Marcia and sill about the $5,000 offer?

# 2595 A:

I'm pretty sure before.

# 2596 Q:

What room -- where did you tell Marcia and Bill about this $5,000 offer?

# 2597 A:

At the district attorney's office.

# 2598 Q:

Who's office?

# 2599 A:

I think it was Marcia' s.

# 2600 Q:

Was anyone else in the room?

# 2601 A:

Bill Hodgman.

# 2602 Q:

Anyone other than Bill Hodgman, Marcia Clark and yourself when you told them about this $5,000 incident?

# 2603 A:

I don't know.

# 2604 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 2605 PHILLIP BAKER:

[Page 157 is missing]

# 2606 A:

I don't think so.

# 2607 Q:

Did she tell you that O.J. Simpson was naked?

# 2608 A:

No.

# 2609 Q:

Did she tell you that she, Nicole, was naked of May 7, 1994, prior to this offer?

# 2610 A:

No.

# 2611 Q:

Did she tell you that they had made love prior to this $5,000 offer?

# 2612 A:

No.

# 2613 Q:

Did she tell you they made love after he made this $5,000 offer?

# 2614 A:

No.

# 2615 Q:

You thought this was the most disgusting thing you had ever heard; isn't that true?

# 2616 JOHN KELLY:

I don't think she testified to that, Mr. Baker.

# 2617 PHILLIP BAKER:

It's a question, a question, John.

# 2618 DENISE BROWN:

I thought it was a statement.

# 2619 Q:

You thought, did you not, that this was the most disgusting thing you had ever heard; is it true?

# 2620 A:

I thought it was disgusting, yes.

# 2621 Q:

You thought he was outrageous for making this $5,000 offer?

# 2622 A:

Nothing puts anything past me that he does.

# 2623 Q:

You thought it was outrageous that he made this $5,000 offer --

# 2624 JOHN KELLY:

-- Is that a question?

# 2625 Q:

-- did you not?

# 2626 JOHN KELLY:

Make it a question. Read that back, Judy, the completed question, please.

# 2627 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 2628 JOHN KELLY:

Did you think it was outrageous?

# 2629 DENISE BROWN:

Yes.

# 2630 Q:

You couldn't stand O.J. Simpson after you heard this $5,000-offer story; isn't that true?

# 2631 A:

Probably.

# 2632 Q:

Well, is it true or is it not, Denise? You couldn't stand O.J. Simpson after you heard this $5,000 offer; is that true?

# 2633 A:

That I could not stand him?

# 2634 Q:

Yes.

# 2635 A:

Probably.

# 2636 Q:

Did you ever talk to him after May 8th, 1994, prior to June 12th, 1994?

# 2637 A:

Yes.

# 2638 Q:

When?

# 2639 A:

At the recital.

# 2640 Q:

Did you express to him your outrage about this $5,000 offer?

# 2641 A:

No.

# 2642 Q:

Did you ever express to him in any manner whatsoever your outrage about this $5,000 offer?

# 2643 A:

No.

# 2644 Q:

When you saw him at that recital, June 12th, 1994, you were disgusted to even see him; isn't that true?

# 2645 A:

I didn't care one way or another.

# 2646 Q:

You didn't care one way or the other? After you heard the story he had offered your sister $5,000 for sex, you weren't disgusted with him at the time of the recital?

# 2647 A:

I don't care. I have no feelings towards the man.

# 2648 Q:

You had no feelings on June 12th, 1994, either, did you?

# 2649 JOHN KELLY:

For whom?

# 2650 PHILLIP BAKER:

For O.J. Simpson.

# 2651 DENISE BROWN:

No. He was there.

# 2652 Q:

It didn't bother you at all when you saw O.J. Simpson at the recital June 12, 1994?

# 2653 A:

To me it was as if he wasn't even there. What difference does it make. He was nobody.

# 2654 Q:

He was nobody to you?

# 2655 A:

No.

# 2656 Q:

He didn't sicken you at all on June 12, 1994, after you heard about the story only a month previously?

# 2657 A:

I didn't get -- didn't -- I didn't get sick, no. I didn't throw up, no.

# 2658 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 2659 Q:

You had no feelings whatsoever about O.J. Simpson on June 12th, 1994?

# 2660 A:

I had no feelings about the man?

# 2661 Q:

Yes.

# 2662 A:

Oh, I think I have expressed my feelings for the man, haven't I?

# 2663 Q:

What were your feelings for O.J. Simpson on June 12th, 1994, at the recital?

# 2664 A:

At the recital?

# 2665 Q:

Yes. No feelings --

# 2666 A:

Oh, there were no feelings for O.J. Simpson on June 12th, 1994.

# 2667 Q:

Did you ever tell your father, your mother, Dominique or any of your friends this disgusting offer that O.J. Simpson made to Nicole on May 7th, 1994?

# 2668 A:

No.

# 2669 Q:

You never related that to any one of your friends?

# 2670 A:

(Shakes head in the negative.) No.

# 2671 Q:

Did you ever talk to Nicole about this offer after May 8th, 1994, this $5,000 offer?

# 2672 A:

No. I think it was just that day.

# 2673 Q:

You never confronted O.J. Simpson with your opinions of him after hearing the story about -- on May 8th, 1994?

# 2674 A:

I don't -- No.

# 2675 Q:

May of 1994, did you think O.J. Simpson was physically abusive to Nicole?

# 2676 JOHN KELLY:

I'm sorry. Could I have that last question read back, Judy.

# 2677 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 2678 JOHN KELLY:

Other than this incident she just told you about?

# 2679 PHILLIP BAKER:

At all.

# 2680 DENISE BROWN:

Ever?

# 2681 Q:

In May 1994 did you think O.J. Simpson was physically abusive to Nicole whatsoever?

# 2682 A:

Certain incidents, yes.

# 2683 Q:

Did you think he was physically abusive to her in May 1994?

# 2684 JOHN KELLY:

Phil, I'm sorry. Did she think he was physically abusive to -- Was she thinking that in May, or did she think his actions in May were physically abusive?

# 2685 Q:

Were you thinking in May 1994 that O.J. Simpson was a batterer?

# 2686 A:

I had never heard the word "batterer."

# 2687 Q:

So you did not believe he was a batterer in May 1994?

# 2688 A:

I had never heard that word before.

# 2689 PHILLIP BAKER:

Could you read the question back, please.

# 2690 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 2691 DENISE BROWN:

I can't answer that question. I didn't know what a batterer was in May 1994.

# 2692 Q:

Were you friendly with O.J. Simpson in May of 1994?

# 2693 A:

I don't know. I don't -- It wasn't like I called him up to say, "Hello," no.

# 2694 Q:

Well, you've told us about this 1982 or the La Cantina restaurant where O.J. Simpson threw Nicole out of the house; correct?

# 2695 A:

Yeah.

# 2696 Q:

And you told us about how you -- you took Polaroids of Nicole in 1989 following the New Year's Eve incident in which she had bruises on her arm and forehead; true?

# 2697 A:

True.

# 2698 Q:

And she told you in May of 1994 that O.J. Simpson had offered her $5,000 to have sex with her and that veins were popping out of his neck; true?

# 2699 A:

True.

# 2700 Q:

When you heard that Nicole was killed on June 12th, 1994, you immediately thought O.J. Simpson was responsible for the crimes; true?

# 2701 A:

Absolutely.

# 2702 Q:

And 2 days before, 3 days before, a week before, you hated O.J. Simpson, didn't you?

# 2703 A:

I didn't talk to O.J. Simpson.

# 2704 Q:

Did you hate O.J. Simpson a week before June 12th, 1994?

# 2705 A:

I didn't think about him.

# 2706 Q:

You thought he was an awful person in early June of 1994, didn't you?

# 2707 A:

I thought he was an awful person ever since I met him.

# 2708 Q:

You thought he was an awful person since you knew him in 1977; correct?

# 2709 A:

The way he treated Nicole, yes.

# 2710 Q:

You always just couldn't stand the way he treated your sister from 1977 through 1994; correct?

# 2711 A:

Correct.

# 2712 Q:

And so you would never kiss or hug O.J. Simpson on June 12, 1994, would you?

# 2713 A:

I did say "good-bye" to him, yes.

# 2714 Q:

Did you kiss him?

# 2715 A:

On the cheek.

# 2716 Q:

Did you kiss him on the cheek -- Did you hug him at the recital, June 12th, 1994?

# 2717 A:

I think I did.

# 2718 Q:

What did you say to him when you kissed him?

# 2719 A:

"Good-bye."

# 2720 Q:

Anything else?

# 2721 A:

Not that I recall.

# 2722 Q:

Did you talk to him at all --

# 2723 JOHN KELLY:

Phil, you've got to slow down a little bit. Okay.

# 2724 Q:

Was that kiss and hug you gave O.J. Simpson on June 12, 1994, a signal of your disdain for O.J. Simpson?

# 2725 A:

It was something that I have done over the years, to say "hello" and to say "good-bye."

# 2726 Q:

Was it a sign by you that you could not stand O.J. Simpson on June 12th, 1994?

# 2727 A:

No. It was a sign of good-bye.

# 2728 Q:

Have you ever traveled to Europe?

# 2729 A:

Have I? Yes.

# 2730 Q:

Did you ever travel to Europe with a person named Tony or Anthony?

# 2731 A:

Tony or Anthony? Who?

# 2732 Q:

(Indicating.) I don't know. Who did you travel to Europe with?

# 2733 A:

Myself, a girlfriend, friends.

# 2734 Q:

Did you ever travel to Europe with a boyfriend of yours?

# 2735 A:

Possibly.

# 2736 Q:

Well, you have no recollection as you sit here today of ever traveling to Europe with a boyfriend of yours?

# 2737 A:

Ed.

# 2738 Q:

Ed [Name Deleted]?

# 2739 A:

Yeah.

# 2740 Q:

Any other boyfriend you may have traveled to Europe with?

# 2741 A:

Possibly, but I don't remember.

# 2742 Q:

Were any of your boyfriends ever killed in Europe?

# 2743 A:

Were any of my boyfriends ever killed in Europe?

# 2744 Q:

Did a boyfriend or friend of yours, any acquaintance of yours, ever meet his demise, any boyfriend of yours, ever murdered in Europe?

# 2745 A:

Actually, yes.

# 2746 Q:

Who was that?

# 2747 A:

Faruk.

# 2748 THE REPORTER:

How is that spelled?

# 2749 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know.

# 2750 Q:

Is that the first name?

# 2751 A:

Yeah.

# 2752 Q:

Do you know his last name?

# 2753 A:

I forget.

# 2754 Q:

When was he killed?

# 2755 A:

I don't know.

# 2756 Q:

Early '80s?

# 2757 A:

It was after we had broken up.

# 2758 Q:

When did you date him, Faruk?

# 2759 A:

I don't remember.

# 2760 Q:

Did you have any estimate as to the time, in the '80s, '90s?

# 2761 A:

It was -- I think it was in the '80s.

# 2762 Q:

How was he killed?

# 2763 A:

I don't know. I just heard it through the grapevine.

# 2764 Q:

You didn't attend his funeral?

# 2765 A:

No.

# 2766 Q:

Did you ever inquire as to how he was killed?

# 2767 A:

No. I wasn't seeing him anymore.

# 2768 Q:

How long before he was killed had you two stopped dating?

# 2769 A:

Oh, I don't know. A year, 2 years.

# 2770 Q:

Did you go to Europe with Faruk ever?

# 2771 A:

Yes.

# 2772 Q:

When?

# 2773 A:

I don't remember the dates.

# 2774 Q:

Do you know what year?

# 2775 A:

No.

# 2776 Q:

You have no -- Was it before Sean was born?

# 2777 A:

Yeah. It was probably early '80s.

# 2778 Q:

Were you in Europe when he was killed?

# 2779 A:

No.

# 2780 Q:

How did you hear about his murder?

# 2781 A:

Through a mutual friend.

# 2782 Q:

What is the name of the mutual friend who told you that Faruk had been killed?

# 2783 A:

I think his name was Joel.

# 2784 Q:

Do you know the last name?

# 2785 A:

No.

# 2786 Q:

Did he tell you how Faruk was killed?

# 2787 A:

He told me that he overdosed, I think.

# 2788 Q:

Overdosed on what?

# 2789 A:

I don't know.

# 2790 Q:

When you traveled with Faruk in Europe, was he purchasing or using drugs?

# 2791 A:

I don't know. Not in front of me.

# 2792 Q:

You never saw him use any drugs in front of you traveled to Europe with him?

# 2793 A:

Faruk, no.

# 2794 Q:

Who else was on this trip with you and Faruk?

# 2795 A:

Just the two of us.

# 2796 Q:

How long did the trip last?

# 2797 A:

Oh, I don't know. About 3 weeks.

# 2798 Q:

By the way, this $5,000 incident, you have never talked to Dominique or Judithia about it?

# 2799 A:

No.

# 2800 Q:

When you went on Geraldo in November 1994, you were fighting mad, and you never mentioned it?

# 2801 A:

No.

# 2802 Q:

When you went on PrimeTime Live with Diane Sawyer on December 1st, 1994, you never mentioned it?

# 2803 A:

I don't think so.

# 2804 Q:

Isn't it true you concocted this story with your -- Isn't it true that you concocted this story with your family because you are in a custody dispute with O.J. Simpson?

# 2805 A:

No.

# 2806 Q:

Isn't it true that you concocted this story with your family so that they can continue to receive subsidies on behalf of O.J. Simpson?

# 2807 A:

No.

# 2808 JOHN KELLY:

On behalf of O.J. Simpson?

# 2809 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

From.

# 2810 PHILLIP BAKER:

By.

# 2811 ROBERT BAKER:

A stipend from O.J. to everyone.

# 2812 JOHN KELLY:

I believe that is child support, not a stipend.

# 2813 Q:

Do you have a book deal?

# 2814 A:

Do I have a book deal?

# 2815 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 2816 Q:

Have you ever been approached about a book dea1?

# 2817 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 2818 Q:

Do you have an agent --

# 2819 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 2820 PHILLIP BAKER:

# 2821 Q:

-- publicity agent?

# 2822 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 2823 PHILLIP BAKER:

What is the basis for the objection?

# 2824 JOHN KELLY:

Same one as every other question you have asked in the same area, relevancy.

# 2825 Q:

Have you --

# 2826 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 2827 Q:

Have you ever documented, written down, your recollection of your relationship with Nicole?

# 2828 A:

No.

# 2829 Q:

Have you ever written anything at any time about this alleged $5,000 incident?

# 2830 A:

No. I don't think so.

# 2831 Q:

When is the last time you saw Nicole and Linda [Name Deleted] together?

# 2832 A:

Oh, years.

# 2833 Q:

A couple years before her death?

# 2834 A:

Probably. I'm not really sure when they were last together.

# 2835 Q:

When is the last time you saw Nicole and Pam [Name Deleted] together?

# 2836 A:

Awhile also, a couple years.

# 2837 Q:

Couple years before the death of Nicole?

# 2838 A:

Yeah.

# 2839 Q:

Are you sure that Linda [Name Deleted] and Pam [Name Deleted] were Nicole's best friends prior to her death in June 1994?

# 2840 JOHN KELLY:

In your opinion.

# 2841 DENISE BROWN:

In my opinion, I think they were very good friends of Nicole's.

# 2842 Q:

What did you do on Mother's Day 1994?

# 2843 A:

Mother's Day?

# 2844 Q:

Yes.

# 2845 A:

We were at my mom's house.

# 2846 Q:

Who is "we"?

# 2847 A:

Myself, my mom, my sister Tanya, my sister Dominique, my sister Nicole.

# 2848 Q:

By the way, did you ever tell Tanya about the $5,000 incident?

# 2849 A:

I didn't tell anybody.

# 2850 Q:

Why didn't you tell anyone about this $5,000 incident? When you were asked about the relationship between Nicole Brown and O.J. Simpson, why did you forget this incident?

# 2851 JOHN KELLY:

Just give me a minute.

# 2852 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 2853 JOHN KELLY:

Just answer the question.

# 2854 DENISE BROWN:

What was it?

# 2855 JOHN KELLY:

What was the last question again?

# 2856 Q:

Why did you forget to mention this $5,000 incident when you were asked about prior domestic abuse between Nicole and O.J.?

# 2857 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer. Could you rephrase the question. She never said she forgot to tell anybody anything.

# 2858 ROBERT BAKER:

You don't have to rephrase it.

# 2859 Q:

Do you understand the question?

# 2860 A:

I told you I think I told Bill and Marcia about it.

# 2861 Q:

You were asked by police officers, were you not, about the prior relationship between Nicole and O.J. Simpson?

# 2862 A:

I was asked by Marcia and Bill.

# 2863 Q:

You were never asked by any police officer about the prior relationship between Nicole and O.J. Simpson? [page 174 is missing]

# 2864 Q:

About the $5,000 incident?

# 2865 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. But answer it again.

# 2866 DENISE BROWN:

I don't think so.

# 2867 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 2868 Q:

Did you make any phone calls at lunch?

# 2869 A:

Did I?

# 2870 Q:

Yes.

# 2871 A:

I tried to call home.

# 2872 Q:

Who did you try to talk to?

# 2873 A:

I tried to call my mother.

# 2874 Q:

Why did you want to talk to her?

# 2875 A:

To see if Laura went to my place.

# 2876 Q:

Who is Laura?

# 2877 A:

A lady that goes up and cleans my house.

# 2878 Q:

Did you talk to anyone else? Did you talk to your mother?

# 2879 A:

No. She wasn't there.

# 2880 Q:

Did you try to call anyone else?

# 2881 A:

No.

# 2882 Q:

Do you have any plans to go on any television show in the next couple of days --

# 2883 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 2884 Q:

-- and talk about this deposition?

# 2885 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 2886 PHILLIP BAKER:

You are instructing her not to answer that question?

# 2887 JOHN KELLY:

Yes, I am.

# 2888 Q:

Are you planning on walking down and giving press conference to the cameras downstairs once your deposition concludes?

# 2889 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that. Would you like her to, though?

# 2890 Q:

Did you see Nicole on Mother's Day 1994 at your parents' house?

# 2891 A:

Yes.

# 2892 Q:

You had a fight with her that day, didn't you?

# 2893 JOHN KELLY:

Phil, you've got to let her finish answering before you go to the next question.

# 2894 PHILLIP BAKER:

I thought she said, "Yes."

# 2895 JOHN KELLY:

But you were into your next question.

# 2896 Q:

You had a fight with her that day, didn't you in May -- Mother's Day 1994, you and Nicole?

# 2897 A:

Absolutely not. [p. 177 missing] slapped?

# 2898 A:

Not that I know of.

# 2899 Q:

Do you know, has she ever told you she slapped Michele, O.J.'s former housekeeper?

# 2900 A:

She didn't tell me.

# 2901 Q:

How did you learn about her slapping of Michele?

# 2902 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer. She didn't indicate she did know about it. Want to rephrase the question?

# 2903 Q:

Have you ever heard that Nicole slapped Michele?

# 2904 A:

I heard about it.

# 2905 Q:

When did you hear about it?

# 2906 A:

I guess after it happened.

# 2907 Q:

Who did you hear about it from?

# 2908 A:

I don't remember. Maybe my mother.

# 2909 Q:

What did she tell you, if you recall?

# 2910 A:

You know, I don't remember.

# 2911 Q:

Did you ever date Jeff Noebel?

# 2912 A:

No.

# 2913 Q:

You never had any sort of physical relationship with Jeff Noebel whatsoever?

# 2914 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that.

# 2915 Q:

Tell me as best as you can your recollection of June 12th, 1994.

# 2916 JOHN KELLY:

Starting at what time, when she got up or at the recital or whatever?

# 2917 Q:

Starting when you got up through the recital.

# 2918 JOHN KELLY:

You know what, why don't you ask her specific questions about that day.

# 2919 DENISE BROWN:

Yeah.

# 2920 PHILLIP BAKER:

Are you objecting to it?

# 2921 JOHN KELLY:

I am just asking you as a courtesy to reask the question in the proper format.

# 2922 Q:

When did you leave for the recital on June 12th, 1994?

# 2923 A:

Let's see. The recital was about 5:00, 4:30 -- Probably about 3:00 or so maybe.

# 2924 Q:

Did you have tickets to the recital?

# 2925 A:

Nicole had the tickets there, yeah.

# 2926 Q:

How did you get to the recital?

# 2927 A:

We drove.

# 2928 Q:

Did you drive or your mother drive, or how did you get there?

# 2929 A:

Who drove? I drove up with my parents, my father.

# 2930 Q:

Was Tanya or Dominique with you when you traveled to the recital?

# 2931 A:

Dominique.

# 2932 Q:

She was in the car?

# 2933 A:

Yes.

# 2934 Q:

What time -- Did you go straight to the recital, or did you go to Nicole's house?

# 2935 A:

Gosh, I don't remember offhand. I think to the recital.

# 2936 Q:

Tell me everything you remember occurring after you arrived at the recital with Lou, Judithia and Dominique.

# 2937 A:

We all sat down, got our seats, watched the show. I remember the kids running around playing. I remember O.J. walking in, them giving him the ticket. I remember him coming back in and talking to my mom and dad, who were seated right in front of me. I remember him then sitting behind me. I remember him telling me how he flew in for the recital and how he was leaving that night to go to Chicago. Then he moved from behind me to closer to the back of the door (indicating), and he was sitting in a chair by himself. And every time I would look around looking for the kids, because they were running in and out of the recital hall, I was looking over, and I would see him out of the corner of my eye staring at Nicole (indicating).

# 2938 Q:

Anything else you remember from that night at the recital -- from the recital?

# 2939 A:

At the recital?

# 2940 Q:

Yes.

# 2941 JOHN KELLY:

Well, Phil, why don't you at this point, rather than have such a lengthy narrative, ask specific questions to ask about that.

# 2942 Q:

After you saw --

# 2943 JOHN KELLY:

Theoretically she could explain or detail every act she saw, the 33 acts at the recital, and everything else.

# 2944 Q:

After you saw O.J. staring at Nicole, what do you recall next occurring?

# 2945 A:

Nothing. I was just watching the recital, looking back for the kids to see if they showed up, because they were running in and out of the auditorium.

# 2946 Q:

What time did you leave the recital?

# 2947 A:

I think it was probably a couple hours later, hour and half later. I am not sure how long it went. 7:00 maybe.

# 2948 Q:

Do you recall seeing O.J. after you left the recital?

# 2949 A:

Uh-huh. Yes.

# 2950 Q:

Where did you see him?

# 2951 A:

Out in front of the auditorium.

# 2952 Q:

What do you recall happening between you -- What did you see O.J. Simpson doing after you left the recital?

# 2953 A:

Walking -- We were all walking to the cars, to the parking lot.

# 2954 Q:

Did you talk to him?

# 2955 A:

I don't remember anything specific.

# 2956 Q:

All you remember as you sit here today is leaving the recital and walking towards the cars and leaving?

# 2957 A:

Yeah, and saying, "Good-bye."

# 2958 Q:

To whom?

# 2959 A:

To him and to -- to Cora's husband.

# 2960 Q:

What is Cora's husband's name?

# 2961 JOHN KELLY:

If you know.

# 2962 DENISE BROWN:

I just spaced. Ron Fischman.

# 2963 Q:

Did you say "good-bye" to anyone else?

# 2964 A:

I don't think so. I think just the two of them.

# 2965 Q:

How did you get your ticket to the recital?

# 2966 A:

Nicole had it.

# 2967 Q:

Where did she give it to you?

# 2968 A:

I don't think she ever gave it to me.

# 2969 Q:

Is there anything other than what you've already told me about seeing O.J. at the recital and seeing him after the recital that you remember about O.J. Simpson --

# 2970 JOHN KELLY:

Well --

# 2971 Q:

-- on the day of the recital?

# 2972 JOHN KELLY:

Phil, she can't be expected to remember every instant she observed him or talked to him or remember something about him. I would ask you to ask something a little more specific about at what point in time at the recital or something. It's like asking her to come in here and say, "Tell me about your life," and ask her if there is anything else she remembers about it.

# 2973 Q:

Did you have any conversations with O.J. Simpson on the night of the recital?

# 2974 A:

Yeah. He told me he was going to Chicago.

# 2975 Q:

Is that the only conversation you had with him?

# 2976 A:

Yeah, the only one I remember.

# 2977 Q:

Tell me as best as you can recall the exact conversation you had with O.J. Simpson at the recital.

# 2978 A:

He said that he came here for the recital and that he was taking the red-eye out of Chicago that night.

# 2979 Q:

Anything else said between you two?

# 2980 A:

Huh-uh.

# 2981 Q:

Did you respond to him at all?

# 2982 A:

No. I don't think so.

# 2983 Q:

When you were seated at the recital in comparison to Nicole, Judithia, the Fischmans and your father?

# 2984 A:

My mother and father were in front of me. I was, I think, in the third row possibly. And then Nicole was behind me (indicating), not straight behind me, but in towards the middle more.

# 2985 Q:

Who were you sitting next to?

# 2986 A:

I had an open seat next to me. I was right on the aisle.

# 2987 Q:

Were there; any of your acquaintances in the aisle that you were seated in?

# 2988 A:

Well, I had the seat for Sean, but he was up and running around.

# 2989 Q:

And your parents were sitting in front of you?

# 2990 A:

Yes.

# 2991 Q:

Where was Dominique sitting?

# 2992 A:

Back by Nicole.

# 2993 Q:

Was she sitting to the left or the right of Nicole facing the stage?

# 2994 A:

I'm not really sure, but I -- possibly the right. I don't really remember right now.

# 2995 Q:

When did you first see -- At what time of the recital did you first see O.J. enter?

# 2996 A:

It was after the recital had started.

# 2997 Q:

How long into the recital did O.J. enter?

# 2998 A:

I don't know.

# 2999 Q:

Was the recital going on when O.J. walked in?

# 3000 A:

Yeah.

# 3001 Q:

What did O.J. do first, to the best of your knowledge, after he walked into the recital?

# 3002 A:

He got a ticket.

# 3003 Q:

Who did he get the ticket from?

# 3004 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. But answer it once more.

# 3005 PHILLIP BAKER:

I don't think she answered this.

# 3006 JOHN KELLY:

Yes, she has, Phil.

# 3007 DENISE BROWN:

Nicole had his ticket. I think she handed it to Dominique to hand to him.

# 3008 Q:

Did you see Nicole hand the ticket to Dominique?

# 3009 A:

I don't know, but I saw Mini -- well, Dominique, Mini -- reach up and hand him the ticket, as far as I remember.

# 3010 Q:

Did you see Nicole hand the ticket to Dominique?

# 3011 A:

No.

# 3012 Q:

But you saw Dominique hand the ticket to O.J.

# 3013 A:

Yes.

# 3014 Q:

Dominique was sitting behind you?

# 3015 A:

Yeah, over to the left of me (indicating).

# 3016 Q:

Behind you and to your left?

# 3017 A:

Yes.

# 3018 Q:

How many seats over?

# 3019 A:

About 3 or 4 maybe.

# 3020 Q:

And Nicole was sitting where in relation to Dominique?

# 3021 A:

Next to her.

# 3022 Q:

To the right of Dominique or the left of Dominique?

# 3023 A:

You see -- I think probably to the left of Dominique.

# 3024 Q:

Where was O.J. standing when Dominique handed him the ticket?

# 3025 A:

In the aisle. There was a center walkway to go down the aisle to the stage.

# 3026 Q:

Was that the aisle that you were sitting on?

# 3027 A:

No.

# 3028 Q:

Was the aisle to the right or the left of where you were sitting?

# 3029 A:

It was to the left.

# 3030 Q:

Was Nicole sitting on a seat bordering the aisle?

# 3031 A:

No. I think she was in further, in towards the middle.

# 3032 Q:

Did Dominique turn to the right to hand the ticket to O.J. or turn to her left to hand the ticket to O.J.?

# 3033 JOHN KELLY:

Go ahead, if you can.

# 3034 DENISE BROWN:

I'm not really sure.

# 3035 Q:

Did she have to reach over Nicole to hand O.J. the ticket, or did she give the ticket in the other direction to O.J.? (Indicating.)

# 3036 A:

See, that's what I don't remember.

# 3037 Q:

What was O.J. wearing that night?

# 3038 A:

He had black on.

# 3039 Q:

What was he wearing that was black?

# 3040 A:

A sweater, pants.

# 3041 Q:

What color shirt?

# 3042 A:

That I don't remember.

# 3043 Q:

After O.J. Simpson got the ticket, what did he if you know?

# 3044 A:

I don't know what he did after that.

# 3045 Q:

When was the next time you saw O.J. Simpson after you saw Dominique hand him the ticket?

# 3046 A:

In front of my parents.

# 3047 Q:

How long after Dominique handed O.J. the ticket was he in front of your parents?

# 3048 A:

Just a couple of minutes.

# 3049 Q:

Did he walk straight from receiving the ticket from Dominique over to where your parents were?

# 3050 A:

No. Because you had to walk around from the outside behind us.

# 3051 Q:

Did he say "hi" to you before he said "hi" to your parents?

# 3052 A:

No.

# 3053 Q:

Where was he standing when he said "hello" to your parents?

# 3054 A:

Right in front of them.

# 3055 Q:

Were there seats in front of where your parents were seated --

# 3056 A:

Yes.

# 3057 Q:

-- sitting?

# 3058 A:

Yes.

# 3059 Q:

When O.J. said "hello" to them --

# 3060 A:

Were there seats in front of my parents?

# 3061 Q:

Yes.

# 3062 A:

Yes.

# 3063 Q:

Was anyone sitting in those seats when O.J. said "hello" to your parents?

# 3064 A:

I don't remember.

# 3065 Q:

Was O.J. standing in the aisle when he talked to Judy and Lou, or was he standing directly in front of one of them?

# 3066 A:

In the aisle.

# 3067 Q:

Were you close enough to hear the conversation?

# 3068 A:

No. I didn't pay attention.

# 3069 Q:

How long; did he talk to Lou and Judy?

# 3070 A:

I don't know.

# 3071 Q:

Do you recall any portions of the conversation he had with Lou and Judy?

# 3072 A:

None.

# 3073 Q:

Did he give Lou -- greet Lou and Judy in any way?

# 3074 A:

I don't know.

# 3075 Q:

What did you see O.J. do next after talking with Lou and Judy?

# 3076 A:

Then he sat down behind me.

# 3077 Q:

Did he say "hi" to you?

# 3078 JOHN KELLY:

Well, the last 2 times I've said it's been asked and answered. Now she is not going to answer it. You've already asked her this 3 times about what Simpson said to her. She has gone over it word for word.

# 3079 PHILLIP BAKER:

If you would listen to the question, did he say "hi" to her.

# 3080 JOHN KELLY:

Could you read -- She has told you every syllable she recalls him saying to her when he came over to her.

# 3081 PHILLIP BAKER:

Are you instructing her not to answer on asked and answered? You are breaking new law here.

# 3082 JOHN KELLY:

You are breaking new something with these questions.

# 3083 ROBERT BAKER:

It hasn't gone on 9 days, has it?

# 3084 JOHN KELLY:

I don't know. It may.

# 3085 Q:

After he said "hello" to Lou and Judy, did he next say "hello" to you?

# 3086 A:

No.

# 3087 Q:

What did you see O.J. do after he said "hello" to Lou and Judy?

# 3088 A:

Sat there and talked with them for a while.

# 3089 Q:

How long did he talk to them?

# 3090 A:

I'm not sure.

# 3091 Q:

Over 5 minutes?

# 3092 A:

I don't know.

# 3093 Q:

Over 10 minutes?

# 3094 A:

I can't tell. I don't know. I really don't. I don't know how long he was there.

# 3095 Q:

Subsequently he sat down behind you?

# 3096 A:

Uh-huh. Yes.

# 3097 Q:

Where did he sit behind you, directly --

# 3098 A:

Right behind me.

# 3099 Q:

-- behind you?

# 3100 Q:

How long, if you know, did he sit directly behind you?

# 3101 A:

Long enough to tell me that he was there for Sydney's recital and that he was taking the red-eye out to Chicago and that --

# 3102 Q:

Did you turn around to speak with him?

# 3103 A:

That's all he said to me.

# 3104 Q:

Did you physically turn around to speak with him when he was sitting behind you?

# 3105 A:

I turned my head around, yes (indicating).

# 3106 Q:

Did you greet each other? Did you give him a kiss?

# 3107 A:

No.

# 3108 Q:

Did he give you a kiss?

# 3109 A:

No.

# 3110 Q:

How soon after he sat down directly behind you conversation ensue between you and O.J.?

# 3111 A:

I am not sure.

# 3112 Q:

Over 5 minutes?

# 3113 A:

I don't know.

# 3114 Q:

Over a half hour?

# 3115 A:

I don't think so.

# 3116 Q:

Over 20 minutes?

# 3117 A:

I don't know.

# 3118 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 3119 Q:

Was O.J. seated in that seat the entire time after he sat down?

# 3120 A:

No.

# 3121 Q:

How soon after he sat down did he move?

# 3122 A:

I don't know how long after, but he did move.

# 3123 Q:

Did you see him get up from that seat?

# 3124 A:

No.

# 3125 Q:

Did you hear him talking to anyone when he was sitting behind you?

# 3126 JOHN KELLY:

Wait, wait. Can we go back to the last question.

# 3127 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 3128 JOHN KELLY:

Which seat were you referring to when you asked, "Did you see him get up?"

# 3129 PHILLIP BAKER:

The seat directly behind her. She understood.

# 3130 JOHN KELLY:

You read her mind.

# 3131 DENISE BROWN:

Did I see him get up?

# 3132 JOHN KELLY:

Actually get up and move.

# 3133 DENISE BROWN:

No.

# 3134 Q:

Did you hear any conversation between him and any person when he was sitting behind you?

# 3135 A:

No.

# 3136 Q:

Did you see him greet Nicole?

# 3137 A:

No.

# 3138 Q:

Did you see him greet Sydney or Justin?

# 3139 A:

Yeah, I think so.

# 3140 Q:

Where did you see him greet Sydney or Justin?

# 3141 A:

In the auditorium.

# 3142 Q:

When did this occur?

# 3143 A:

In the -- In the interim of all the conversations and such.

# 3144 Q:

Was it during intermission that you saw O.J. greet -- Was it Sydney or Justin?

# 3145 A:

You know what, I don't remember. I think it was all the kids.

# 3146 Q:

When did you see O.J. greet the kids, during or after the recital or what time?

# 3147 A:

No. It was before, after we had had our conversation, I think Justin was with him.

# 3148 Q:

Give me your best estimate as to how long after O.J. sat in the seat behind you that you saw him greet the kids.

# 3149 A:

If I remember right -- I don't want to guess.

# 3150 JOHN KELLY:

Don't.

# 3151 Q:

I just want your best estimate.

# 3152 A:

I don't know the time. The time I don't know.

# 3153 Q:

When you saw him greet the children, in fact didn't you see him handing flowers to Sydney?

# 3154 A:

No, I didn't.

# 3155 Q:

Did you ever see him hand any flowers to Sydney?

# 3156 A:

No.

# 3157 Q:

Did you ever see any pictures taken of O.J. Simpson on the day of the recital?

# 3158 A:

Any pictures of O.J. Simpson?

# 3159 Q:

Any photographs. Did you see any photographs being taken of O.J. Simpson during or after the recital?

# 3160 JOHN KELLY:

Has she seen them since then or while they were being taken that day?

# 3161 PHILLIP BAKER:

Photographs being taken.

# 3162 DENISE BROWN:

Have I seen photographs being taken? No.

# 3163 Q:

Did you see anybody taking pictures of O.J. Simpson during or after the recital?

# 3164 A:

No.

# 3165 ROBERT BAKER:

Thank you, God. I would have to produce them.

# 3166 JOHN KELLY:

You just dump stuff on us every time we ask, Bob.

# 3167 Q:

Did you ever leave the recital?

# 3168 A:

At the end.

# 3169 Q:

You stayed there from start to finish in your seat?

# 3170 A:

I -- Yeah.

# 3171 Q:

At what point in the recital do you recall O.J. Simpson switching seats?

# 3172 JOHN KELLY:

That was asked and answered, also. But if you can answer it at this time.

# 3173 DENISE BROWN:

I don't remember.

# 3174 Q:

What seat did he switch into?

# 3175 A:

He took a chair and put it over by the doorway.

# 3176 Q:

Where was the doorway in relation to where you were seated?

# 3177 A:

To the right of me.

# 3178 Q:

Directly to the right of you or behind you?

# 3179 A:

Behind to the right (indicating).

# 3180 Q:

Did you have a clear view of O.J. when he was seated near the doorway?

# 3181 A:

When I turned around to look for the kids, yes.

# 3182 Q:

What row was Nicole sitting in from the stage? If you can give me an estimate, how many rows back was she?

# 3183 A:

That I don't know.

# 3184 Q:

was it more than 20?

# 3185 A:

Yeah. We were probably the last 3 or 4 rows of the auditorium.

# 3186 Q:

And Nicole's row, in fact she was sitting right next to a wall behind her; correct?

# 3187 A:

If there was not another row. She was possibly the last one.

# 3188 Q:

Do you recall that there was a wall behind where Nicole was sitting at the recital?

# 3189 JOHN KELLY:

Directly behind her seat?

# 3190 PHILLIP BAKER:

Directly behind.

# 3191 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know. I don't know if there was another row behind Nicole or if it was the wall.

# 3192 Q:

And how far behind you was the doorway in terms of from where you were sitting?

# 3193 A:

You are doing that to me again. Probably from about here to -- to -- to there (indicating).

# 3194 JOHN KELLY:

Same 8-foot distance.

# 3195 Q:

About 8 feet?

# 3196 A:

Something like that. Maybe a little bit further.

# 3197 Q:

So O.J. was sitting about 8 to 10 feet behind you to the right?

# 3198 A:

To the right, yeah.

# 3199 Q:

And Nicole was sitting --

# 3200 ROBERT BAKER:

To the right and back of her.

# 3201 Q:

-- to the right and behind you; correct?

# 3202 A:

O.J. --

# 3203 Q:

And Nicole was sitting about --

# 3204 A:

1, 2, 3 seats over to the left (indicating), one row back.

# 3205 Q:

So about 2 feet behind you and 3 seats to the left of you; to the correct?

# 3206 A:

I guess so.

# 3207 Q:

Was O.J. Simpson's second seat to the right or the left of the doorway?

# 3208 A:

Wait a minute.

# 3209 Q:

O.J., you testified --

# 3210 JOHN KELLY:

As you face the door or walk through the door, Phil?

# 3211 PHILLIP BAKER:

You are right.

# 3212 Q:

You testified O.J. Simpson switched seats and was sitting behind you and to the right of you about 8 feet back.

# 3213 A:

Right.

# 3214 Q:

Was he sitting to the right of the doorway behind you or to the left of the doorway behind you?

# 3215 A:

When you walk in through the doorway, he was on the right.

# 3216 Q:

Okay. And was it a seat in the auditorium or just kind of a loose seat that he picked up and put there?

# 3217 A:

A loose seat.

# 3218 Q:

How many times did you turn around and see O.J. Simpson staring at Nicole?

# 3219 A:

Quite a few times, because I was looking for the kids.

# 3220 Q:

What does "quite a few" mean to you, more than 5 times?

# 3221 A:

Yeah.

# 3222 Q:

More than 10 times?

# 3223 A:

I don't know if it was more than 10.

# 3224 Q:

Between 5 and 10 times you turned around and saw O.J. Simpson staring at Nicole?

# 3225 A:

Yes.

# 3226 Q:

Did he ever look toward you when you saw O.J. Simpson staring at Nicole?

# 3227 A:

No.

# 3228 JOHN KELLY:

Did Simpson look --

# 3229 Q:

Yes.

# 3230 A:

Did O. J. look towards me?

# 3231 Q:

Yes.

# 3232 A:

No. He was staring at Nicole.

# 3233 Q:

When the police -- Did the police, any officer with the LAPD, ever ask you about your recollection of O.J. Simpson at the recital?

# 3234 A:

I don't remember the police officers.

# 3235 Q:

You don't ever remember the police officers ever asking you about O.J. Simpson's conduct at the recital?

# 3236 A:

I remember Marcia and Bill.

# 3237 Q:

Did any police officer ask you at all anything you knew about the recital?

# 3238 A:

I don't know. I don't remember what any police officer did.

# 3239 Q:

When did Marcia and Bill ask you about your recollection of the recital?

# 3240 A:

(Indicating.) When all this first started.

# 3241 Q:

Did they ask you about -- Did Marcia and Bill ask you about the recital prior to the preliminary hearing?

# 3242 A:

I don't know if it was prior to that.

# 3243 Q:

Do you recall if it was prior to the trial of O.J. Simpson when Marcia and Bill asked you about the recital?

# 3244 A:

Yes.

# 3245 Q:

Who was in the room when you talked about the recital with Marcia and Bill?

# 3246 A:

Marcia and Bill.

# 3247 Q:

Anyone else?

# 3248 A:

Not that I remember.

# 3249 Q:

Where did this conversation between Marcia and Bill take place when you discussed the recital?

# 3250 A:

In her office.

# 3251 Q:

Was Marcia or sill taking notes when they asked you about the recital?

# 3252 A:

Yes.

# 3253 Q:

Was this conversation tape-recorded, as far as you know, when they talked to you about the recital?

# 3254 A:

That I don't know.

# 3255 Q:

Did you tell them, Marcia and Bill, when you had this discussion in their office that you saw O.J. Simpson staring at Nicole on approximately 5 to 10 times?

# 3256 JOHN KELLY:

At the recital?

# 3257 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know if I used that number, but I said several times, yes.

# 3258 Q:

So it's your recollection as you sit here today you told Marcia Clark and Bill Hodgman that you saw O.J. Simpson staring at Nicole Brown several times on the night of the recital?

# 3259 A:

Yes.

# 3260 Q:

And how many times did you look for the kids when you attended the recital?

# 3261 JOHN KELLY:

Well --

# 3262 PHILLIP BAKER:

Okay. Strike that.

# 3263 Q:

You testified earlier that you turned around and were looking for the kids; isn't that true?

# 3264 A:

Yes.

# 3265 Q:

Every time you looked for the kids, you saw O.J. Simpson staring at Nicole?

# 3266 A:

Yes.

# 3267 Q:

Every single time you turned around and looked for the children, you saw O.J. Simpson staring?

# 3268 A:

Ever time I looked around to look for Sean, I saw O.J. staring at Nicole.

# 3269 Q:

And how many times do you believe you turned around looking for Sean?

# 3270 A:

Several times.

# 3271 Q:

By the way, you were looking for Sean. You weren't looking for the kids; true?

# 3272 A:

Well, I was looking --

# 3273 JOHN KELLY:

Well, wait. Go ahead. Go ahead.

# 3274 DENISE BROWN:

I was looking for Sean. I was looking for Justin. I was looking for Sydney. I was looking for Aaron. I am a concerned mother.

# 3275 Q:

Did you ever tell any --

# 3276 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 3277 PHILLIP BAKER:

Why don't we take a quick break.

# 3278 (A recess is taken.)

# 3279 PHILLIP BAKER:

Back on.

# 3280 Q:

Did you ever see if Nicole was staring at O.J. during the recital?

# 3281 JOHN KELLY:

Could you state that more slowly.

# 3282 Q:

Did you ever see if Nicole was staring at O.J. during the recital?

# 3283 JOHN KELLY:

Thank you.

# 3284 DENISE BROWN:

No.

# 3285 Q:

Did you ever see any conversation between Nicole and O.J. --

# 3286 A:

No.

# 3287 Q:

- during the recital?

# 3288 A:

No.

# 3289 Q:

If I slow down, you've got to wait for me.

# 3290 A:

Sorry.

# 3291 Q:

What time did you leave the recital?

# 3292 A:

I think it was around 7:00.

# 3293 Q:

Did you see any other member of your family kiss or hug O.J. when you left the recital?

# 3294 A:

Not that I recall.

# 3295 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 3296 PHILLIP BAKER:

I missed it.

# 3297 ROBERT BAKER:

Not that she recalls.

# 3298 Q:

Did you see O.J. leave the building at any time during the recital?

# 3299 A:

No.

# 3300 Q:

So as far as you know, O.J. was at the recital the whole time after he arrived; correct?

# 3301 A:

Yeah, yes.

# 3302 Q:

And how long into the recital did you see O.J. switch seats?

# 3303 A:

Seat from behind me to the seat at the door?

# 3304 Q:

Yes.

# 3305 A:

I don't remember.

# 3306 Q:

And when you saw him in the second seat --

# 3307 A:

By the door?

# 3308 Q:

Yes.

# 3309 A:

Okay.

# 3310 Q:

When you saw him in the second seat by the doorway, approximately -- you turned around and saw him about 5 to 10 times. You turned around and looked at him at different times throughout the recital; correct?

# 3311 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. But answer it again, please.

# 3312 DENISE BROWN:

I was looking for the kids.

# 3313 Q:

In other words, you turned around and looked over to where O.J. was sitting throughout the recital after he arrived; correct?

# 3314 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. Asked and answered. You just asked it, and she just answered it again. But answer it again.

# 3315 DENISE BROWN:

I was looking for the kids. He was right there at the door so I noticed him.

# 3316 Q:

And you never saw O.J. leave the recital?

# 3317 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. But you may answer it again.

# 3318 DENISE BROWN:

I'm sorry?

# 3319 Q:

You never saw O.J. leave the recital?

# 3320 A:

No.

# 3321 JOHN KELLY:

During the recital.

# 3322 DENISE BROWN:

During the recital.

# 3323 Q:

Where did you go after the recital?

# 3324 A:

To dinner.

# 3325 Q:

Who did you go to dinner with?

# 3326 A:

My family.

# 3327 Q:

Would you tell me which members of your family went to dinner.

# 3328 A:

My mother, my father, Nicole, Dominique, myself, Sean, Sydney, Justin, Aaron and a friend of Sydney's, Rachel -- Was it Rachel [Name Deleted]? I think, [Name Deleted].

# 3329 Q:

How did you get there?

# 3330 JOHN KELLY:

To the restaurant?

# 3331 DENISE BROWN:

I'm sorry?

# 3332 Q:

How did you get to the restaurant?

# 3333 A:

Drove.

# 3334 Q:

Which car did you drive?

# 3335 A:

In a Jeep.

# 3336 Q:

Whose Jeep did you drive to the restaurant?

# 3337 A:

I was in Dominique's Jeep.

# 3338 Q:

Who else was in your car?

# 3339 A:

I -- I don't know. I don't remember. Everybody just sort of piled in.

# 3340 Q:

How did your parents get to the restaurant?

# 3341 A:

I think my mother was with Nicole, and I'm not sure where my dad was.

# 3342 Q:

How did Nicole get to the restaurant?

# 3343 A:

She drove.

# 3344 Q:

Who drove with Nicole to the restaurant?

# 3345 A:

See, I don't know who exactly was in the car with her.

# 3346 Q:

Did she drive her Jeep or her Ferrari?

# 3347 A:

Her Jeep.

# 3348 Q:

Who chose Mezzaluna as the restaurant?

# 3349 A:

Nicole.

# 3350 Q:

Had you had reservations made prior to your arrival?

# 3351 A:

I think Nicole made reservations.

# 3352 Q:

Was a table ready for her when you arrived at Mezzaluna?

# 3353 A:

I think so, yeah. A couple of minutes maybe.

# 3354 Q:

Who were you sitting next to at Mezzaluna on the night of June 12th, 1994?

# 3355 A:

I was sitting at the end and sitting next to Nicole.

# 3356 Q:

Did you talk to Nicole about the recital when you were sitting at Mezzaluna on the night of June 12?

# 3357 A:

We talked about how great Sydney did.

# 3358 Q:

Did you ever talk about O.J. Simpson at all when you were at the Mezzaluna restaurant on June 12th, 1994?

# 3359 A:

His name was mentioned. She said, "I don't want to talk about him. I don't want to hear his name."

# 3360 Q:

Who brought his name up?

# 3361 A:

I think it was my mom.

# 3362 Q:

Did you ever mention O.J. Simpson's name at Mezzaluna?

# 3363 A:

Not after she said not to.

# 3364 Q:

So you mentioned it before she said --

# 3365 A:

I didn't mention it.

# 3366 Q:

-- "Don't mention it"? Did you talk about O.J. Simpson on the way to the restaurant after the recital?

# 3367 A:

No.

# 3368 Q:

Did you talk about -- How did you get home from Mezzaluna?

# 3369 A:

How did I get home from Mezzaluna?

# 3370 Q:

Yes.

# 3371 A:

Our family drove home.

# 3372 Q:

You didn't drive with Dominique from the restaurant?

# 3373 A:

We were all in one car.

# 3374 Q:

Okay. So you all traveled to the recital in Dominique's Jeep?

# 3375 A:

Yes.

# 3376 Q:

Did you meet Ron Goldman on the night of June 12, 1994?

# 3377 JOHN KELLY:

When? Okay.

# 3378 DENISE BROWN:

No.

# 3379 Q:

Did he ever walk up to the table on June 12th, 1994, at Mezzaluna?

# 3380 JOHN KELLY:

You are using that Midwest pause there halfway through those questions.

# 3381 DENISE BROWN:

I never met him.

# 3382 Q:

Was his name, as far as you recall, ever mentioned once when you were sitting at Mezzaluna on the night of June 12th, 1994?

# 3383 A:

Not that I recall.

# 3384 Q:

Did you ask why O.J. was not invited to the Mezzaluna dinner?

# 3385 A:

She didn't want him.

# 3386 Q:

How did you arrive at that understanding that Nicole did not want O.J. at the Mezzaluna dinner?

# 3387 A:

When she said "Don't mention his name. I don't want to talk about him," it made it perfectly clear she didn't want him there.

# 3388 Q:

Did you ever ask -- Prior to her statement that she didn't want -- Nicole did not want to talk about O.J., did you ever ask her or ask anyone why O.J. was not going to dinner with your family at Mezzaluna on the night of June 12th, 1994?

# 3389 A:

No.

# 3390 Q:

Did you mention to anyone on the way to Mezzaluna, at Mezzaluna or after Mezzaluna that you saw O.J. Simpson staring at Nicole at the recital?

# 3391 A:

Not that I recall.

# 3392 Q:

Did the fact that O.J. Simpson was staring at Nicole during the recital upset you?

# 3393 A:

I really didn't think about it.

# 3394 Q:

You saw O.J. Simpson staring at your sister approximately 5 to 10 times on the night of June 12th, 1994, and you didn't think about it?

# 3395 A:

Well, it's not like he hasn't done it before.

# 3396 Q:

You've seen him stare at Nicole for prolonged periods of time before?

# 3397 A:

Sure.

# 3398 Q:

Tell me each and every time you saw O.J. Simpson stare at Nicole for prolonged periods of time prior to the recital on June 12th, 1994?

# 3399 A:

Specifics, I don't know.

# 3400 Q:

You can't tell me one specific occasion where you saw --

# 3401 A:

Oh --

# 3402 Q:

-- saw O.J. Simpson staring at Nicole for prolonged periods of time other than the recital on June 12th, 1994?

# 3403 A:

Sure. Out at night.

# 3404 Q:

Where?

# 3405 A:

If we were at a club or out to dinner.

# 3406 Q:

Give me the most recent memory you have of O.J. staring at Nicole prior to the recital of June 12th 1994, for an extended period of time.

# 3407 A:

I don't know any dates. I can't give you any specific dates.

# 3408 Q:

Well, was it in 1994?

# 3409 A:

Not -- No.

# 3410 Q:

1993?

# 3411 A:

I don't think so.

# 3412 Q:

1992? -

# 3413 A:

I don't know.

# 3414 Q:

Was it when they were married?

# 3415 A:

Yes.

# 3416 Q:

That's the most recent time you saw O.J. staring at Nicole for an extended period of time is when they were married?

# 3417 A:

Well, it was -- other times as well. I just don't remember the other times.

# 3418 Q:

You can't remember any other time after they were married that O.J. Simpson stared at Nicole for an extended period of time other than at the recital on June 12, 1994; isn't that correct?

# 3419 A:

Right.

# 3420 Q:

Tell me the most recent recollection you have of O.J. sometime -- Tell me your most recent recollection of O.J. Simpson staring at Nicole for an extended period of time when they were married.

# 3421 A:

I don't remember when.

# 3422 Q:

Do you remember where this occurred?

# 3423 A:

Specifically, no.

# 3424 Q:

Do you remember who was there when this occurred?

# 3425 A:

Me, Nicole, O.J. I don't know who else.

# 3426 Q:

But you have no idea as you sit here today where this staring for an extended period of time occurred when they were married?

# 3427 A:

It was not at one particular place.

# 3428 Q:

Well, name me every single place you saw O.J. sometime stare at Nicole for an extended period of time.

# 3429 A:

Repeat that.

# 3430 Q:

Tell me each and every occasion, each and every location that you saw O.J. Simpson stare at Nicole for an extended period of time?

# 3431 A:

Ones I can remember, okay. Stellini's, S-t-e-l-l-i-n-i, I think. S- -- I don't remember the names of the places, clubs. When we were out.

# 3432 Q:

Where is Stellini's located?

# 3433 A:

I don't think it exists anymore.

# 3434 JOHN KELLY:

Where was it located?

# 3435 DENISE BROWN:

In -- in -- Somewhere in L.

# 3436 Q:

Do you recall --

# 3437 A:

I don't know the street.

# 3438 Q:

Do you recall when you saw O.J. staring at Nicole for an extended period of time at Stellini's?

# 3439 A:

No.

# 3440 Q:

The year?

# 3441 A:

No. I don't know the year.

# 3442 Q:

Mid-'80s?

# 3443 A:

I don't remember.

# 3444 Q:

Was it when they were married or before they were married?

# 3445 A:

Possibly both.

# 3446 Q:

I am simply asking you about the Stellini's incident.

# 3447 A:

Yeah, I know. I don't remember.

# 3448 Q:

Were drinks being served at Mezzaluna on the night of June 12th, 1994?

# 3449 A:

I think -- I didn't drink. They were having -- They may have had some wine.

# 3450 Q:

Did Nicole have any wine at Mezzaluna on the night of June 12, 1994?

# 3451 A:

I don't know. I'm not sure.

# 3452 Q:

Do you recall what time you left Mezzaluna on June 12th,

# 3453 A:

I think it was around 9:00 o'clock, 8:30 -- 8:30.

# 3454 Q:

Did you talk with any members of your family about O.J. Simpson after you left Mezzaluna?

# 3455 A:

No.

# 3456 Q:

You have no knowledge as to whether you left Mezzaluna at 8:30 or 9:00? You can't be any more specific than that?

# 3457 A:

You know what, it was closer to 8:30, because I told the kids to lay down and go to sleep in the back. They had school the next day.

# 3458 Q:

Which kids were in the car?

# 3459 A:

Sean and Aaron.

# 3460 Q:

Who is Aaron?

# 3461 A:

Aaron is Dominique's boy.

# 3462 Q:

So there were 6 of you in the car ride home from Mezzaluna on June 12, 1994?

# 3463 A:

There was my mother, my father, me, Dominique and the 2 boys.

# 3464 Q:

Where did you stay -- Were you living at the Monarch Bay house on June 12th, 1994?

# 3465 A:

Yes.

# 3466 Q:

By the way, what were you doing for a living prior to June 12th, 1994? .

# 3467 JOHN KELLY:

At what period of time, Phil?

# 3468 Q:

In April, May 1994, what were you doing for a living?

# 3469 JOHN KELLY:

Sure. Go ahead.

# 3470 DENISE BROWN:

Sales.

# 3471 Q:

For whom?

# 3472 A:

Kasden Meme et Moi, M-e-m-e e-t M-o-i.

# 3473 Q:

Was that a full-time job?

# 3474 A:

Yes.

# 3475 Q:

40 hours a week?

# 3476 A:

Was it 40? 11:00 to 5:00.

# 3477 Q:

What do they sell?

# 3478 A:

Antiques and clothing.

# 3479 Q:

Were you a door-to-door salesperson or a telephone salesperson? Tell me what your duties were when you worked as a salesperson for Kasden.

# 3480 A:

Sales inside the store.

# 3481 Q:

Where is the store located?

# 3482 A:

In Torrance.

# 3483 Q:

Where in Torrance is the Kasden shop?

# 3484 A:

I don't remember the address.

# 3485 Q:

How long did you work for Kasden?

# 3486 A:

About 3 years.

# 3487 Q:

You don't recall the street that the Kasden shop was located on?

# 3488 A:

It was on Hawthorne. I don't remember the number, though.

# 3489 Q:

Where was Dominique living on June 12th, 1994?

# 3490 A:

Where was Dominique living? I don't know. I don't know if she was at my mom's or if she had moved out already.

# 3491 Q:

Do you recall on the night of June 12th, 1994, Dominique was staying at your parents' house?

# 3492 A:

I don't remember.

# 3493 Q:

Where does Dominique currently live, what city?

# 3494 A:

Dana Point

# 3495 Q:

She has moved out of your parents' home?

# 3496 A:

Yes.

# 3497 Q:

Does she work for the foundation?

# 3498 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer that. MR . PHILLIP BAKER:

# 3499 Q:

Do you know what Dominique was doing for a living in early June 1994?

# 3500 JOHN KELLY:

You can answer that if you know.

# 3501 DENISE BROWN:

Yeah. She was working for Smith Barney.

# 3502 Q:

What was she doing for Smith Barney?

# 3503 A:

I think the same thing she is doing now. I -I don't know what her position is.

# 3504 JOHN KELLY:

There you go.

# 3505 DENISE BROWN:

Sorry.

# 3506 JOHN KELLY:

There is a home run.

# 3507 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know her position.

# 3508 Q:

Did you stay at the Monarch Bay house on the night of June 12th, 1994?

# 3509 A:

Did I?

# 3510 Q:

Yes.

# 3511 A:

Yes.

# 3512 Q:

Sean stayed there as well?

# 3513 A:

Yes.

# 3514 Q:

You and Sean were living at the Monarch Bay house in early June 1994; correct?

# 3515 A:

Yes.

# 3516 Q:

How did you hear that Nicole had been killed?

# 3517 A:

The Monday morning, or June -- June 13th, that next morning.

# 3518 Q:

Tell me how you learned that Nicole had been killed.

# 3519 JOHN KELLY:

This was all asked and answered, Phil, but --

# 3520 (Witness and counsel confer off the record.)

# 3521 JOHN KELLY:

This was all -- in that case --

# 3522 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 3523 (A recess is taken.)

# 3524 Q:

Go back, how did you hear that your sister had been killed?

# 3525 A:

I was in the kitchen. It was about 6:15, 6:30. I heard a scream from my mother's bedroom, from my parents' bedroom, and I ran back, and my mother was screaming, "Nicole has been murdered." And I said, "Who are you talking to?" I grabbed the phone, and the voice -- Well, then I said, "Oh, my God. He killed her. He killed her. He always said he would kill her." That's when he said, "Who?" And I said, "O.J." That's when I ran through the house. I told my sister Tany

# 3526 A:

I woke her up. I was screaming, "He killed her. He killed her. O.J. killed her."

# 3527 Q:

What time in the morning did this phone call take place, if you recall?

# 3528 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. Asked and answered. Do you want to answer it one more time?

# 3529 DENISE BROWN:

About 6:15 or 6:30.

# 3530 Q:

What time did you wake up on the morning of June 13th?

# 3531 A:

Probably about 5:00 o'clock.

# 3532 Q:

Were you going to work on June 13th, 1994?

# 3533 A:

No.

# 3534 Q:

When you worked as a salesperson for Kasden, was it 5 days a week?

# 3535 A:

4 days a week.

# 3536 Q:

Which days would you work when you were working as a salesperson at Kasden?

# 3537 A:

Tuesday through Friday.

# 3538 Q:

Why were you up so early on June 13th, 1994?

# 3539 A:

Because I was supposed to go to court that day.

# 3540 Q:

Why were you going to court on June 13th, 1994?

# 3541 A:

It was the personal injury case.

# 3542 Q:

You heard your mom screaming from her bedroom?

# 3543 A:

Yes.

# 3544 Q:

Was she still on the phone when you ran into the bedroom?

# 3545 A:

Yes.

# 3546 Q:

What did you hear your mom saying on the phone when you walked into the bedroom?

# 3547 A:

She told me, "He killed her. He killed her. Nicole is dead. Nicole has been murdered."

# 3548 Q:

Was she saying this on the phone, or did she say this to you, that O.J. had killed her?

# 3549 A:

She said that -- She said that to me.

# 3550 Q:

Did she still have the phone in her hand when she told you O.J. had killed her?

# 3551 A:

I think the phone was down at her side then, and I was ready to grab the phone.

# 3552 Q:

Did your mother -- Was Lou in the room when you -- when Judy told you that O.J. had killed her?

# 3553 A:

Yes.

# 3554 Q:

Where was he?

# 3555 A:

Laying in bed.

# 3556 Q:

By the way, when you returned from Mezzaluna on the night of June 12th, did you have any discussion with your mother about her glasses?

# 3557 A:

My mother was very depressed that night. She was very quiet on the drive home.

# 3558 Q:

Did you ask her why she was depressed?

# 3559 A:

No. She didn't want to talk.

# 3560 Q:

Did you ask Judy why she was depressed on June 12th, 1994?

# 3561 A:

No. She didn't know why.

# 3562 Q:

Did you ask her why she was depressed on the night of June 12th, 1994?

# 3563 A:

I don't know if it was specifically asked, no.

# 3564 Q:

At what point on the ride home from Mezzaluna did Judy notice she has misplaced her glasses?

# 3565 A:

Early in the drive.

# 3566 Q:

What did she say to you about the glasses early in the drive?

# 3567 A:

She just told me she had forgotten her glasses and she needed to -- to get her glasses back.

# 3568 Q:

Did you ever discuss turning around and going back to Mezzaluna?

# 3569 A:

No.

# 3570 Q:

Did she know she had left her glasses at Mezzaluna at that point?

# 3571 A:

She wasn't sure if they were at Mezzaluna or not.

# 3572 Q:

Do you have a car phone in Dominique's Jeep?

# 3573 A:

That night?

# 3574 Q:

Yes, on June 12th, 1994.

# 3575 A:

No.

# 3576 Q:

Did anyone have a cellular phone with them on June 12th, 1994?

# 3577 A:

No.

# 3578 Q:

What time did you return to Monarch Bay on the night of June 12th, 1994?

# 3579 A:

8:30, 9:30;, figure around 10:00 o'clock. No. 9:30, quarter to 10:00.

# 3580 Q:

Did Judy ever tell you that she was going to try to find her glasses that night?

# 3581 A:

Actually, no.

# 3582 Q:

Were you in the room when Judy made any phone calls relating to her glasses?

# 3583 A:

No.

# 3584 Q:

Did you hear -- Did she tell you that she made any phone calls about her glasses on the night of June 12, 1994?

# 3585 A:

Did she tell me on that night?

# 3586 Q:

Yes.

# 3587 A:

No.

# 3588 Q:

Did she tell you that she talked to Nicole after your family returned from Mezzaluna on the night of June 12, 1994?

# 3589 A:

I don't think so.

# 3590 Q:

When you returned home from Mezzaluna with your family, where did you go? Did you go straight to bed? Did you stay up talking? Did you have drinks? What did you do once you returned home?

# 3591 A:

I carried my son to his bedroom, put him to sleep, and then I went to sleep.

# 3592 Q:

Did you talk to your family about the recital, about her glasses, about Nicole or about O.J. when you returned home to Monarch Bay after dinner at Mezzaluna?

# 3593 JOHN KELLY:

In the house?

# 3594 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 3595 DENISE BROWN:

Not that I remember. I think I just went straight to bed.

# 3596 Q:

Did you overhear Judy talking to anybody associated with the Mezzaluna restaurant?

# 3597 A:

No.

# 3598 Q:

Did you overhear Judy talking with Nicole on the night of June 12, 1994?

# 3599 A:

No.

# 3600 Q:

After you went to bed, did Judy or Lou come in and say "good-night'' to you on June 12th, 1994?

# 3601 A:

No.

# 3602 Q:

So basically after you returned home from Mezzaluna, you put Sean to bed and went to sleep?

# 3603 A:

I put -- I put Sean to bed. I yelled out my door and said "good-night" and closed the door and went to bed.

# 3604 Q:

Did you make any phone calls after you returned from Mezzaluna to Monarch Bay on June 12, 1994?

# 3605 A:

No. Not that I can recall, no.

# 3606 Q:

Did Judy hand you the phone on the morning of June 13th, 1994, or did you take it away from her?

# 3607 A:

I think -- I think I took it from her. I don't remember.

# 3608 Q:

Where was the phone when you picked it up?

# 3609 A:

In her hand.

# 3610 Q:

Who did you speak to? Who was on the other end of the line?

# 3611 A:

Tom Lange.

# 3612 Q:

Did he say anything to you in --

# 3613 A:

He said, "Who" --

# 3614 Q:

-- this phone call, June 13th, 1994?

# 3615 A:

I'm sorry? Can you repeat that.

# 3616 Q:

Did he say anything to you in this phone call at 6:15 to 6:30 on June 13th, 1394?

# 3617 A:

He said to me, "Who?" I said, "O.J."

# 3618 Q:

Anything else said between you and Tom?

# 3619 A:

I don't think so.

# 3620 Q:

Did you hang up after you exchanged these words with Tom Lange?

# 3621 A:

I don't know if my mom took the phone again or not. I don't remember. I ran out.

# 3622 Q:

That's the extent of the conversation you had with Tom Lange, though; correct?

# 3623 A:

Yeah.

# 3624 Q:

Did you ever talk to Arnelle Simpson on the morning of June 13th, 1994?

# 3625 A:

No.

# 3626 Q:

You don't recall if you hung up or handed the phone back to Judy?

# 3627 A:

Yeah. I don't know. I don't remember.

# 3628 Q:

Did Lou ever take the phone in your presence?

# 3629 A:

Not that I recall, no.

# 3630 Q:

What did you tell Tanya when you woke Tanya up?

# 3631 A:

I was screaming down the hallway, "He killed her. Nicole is dead. He murdered Nicole." And I opened up her door, and I said, "O.J. murdered Nicole. She's dead." And then Tanya went crazy and started screaming and crying just like we all did.

# 3632 Q:

Was Dominique in the house on the morning of June 13th, 1994?

# 3633 A:

I don't remember her being there.

# 3634 Q:

What did you do next after waking Tanya up on June 13th, 1994?

# 3635 A:

I think we were all just crying, standing around in misbelief, that it couldn't possibly be happening.

# 3636 Q:

Did you receive any other phone calls that day from any police officers?

# 3637 A:

Gosh, not that I remember.

# 3638 Q:

Did you receive any phone calls from Arnelle Simpson?

# 3639 A:

I didn't talk to Arnelle.

# 3640 Q:

Did you talk to Jason Simpson on June 13th, 1994?

# 3641 A:

Not that I recall.

# 3642 Q:

Did you talk to

A.C. Cowlings on the day of June 13th, 1994?

# 3643 A:

A1 came down.

# 3644 Q:

What time did he come down?

# 3645 A:

He brought the children down, Sydney and Justin. Gosh, sometime in the morning. It was before noon.

# 3646 Q:

How many times did you talk to O.J. Simpson that day?

# 3647 A:

Once.

# 3648 Q:

June 13th, 1994?

# 3649 A:

Once.

# 3650 Q:

What time did he call?

# 3651 A:

It was about 7:15 in the morning.

# 3652 Q:

Where was he when he called, if you know?

# 3653 A:

I don't know.

# 3654 Q:

Tell me exactly what you recall of the conversation with O.J. Simpson and yourself on June 13th, 1994.

# 3655 A:

"You murdered her. You killed her. You have always said you were going to kill her."

# 3656 Q:

Did you pick up the phone?

# 3657 A:

I picked up the phone.

# 3658 Q:

That was the first thing you said?

# 3659 A:

Uh-huh. Yes.

# 3660 Q:

What did he say?

# 3661 A:

He said, "Me?" And then Tanya grabbed the phone.

# 3662 Q:

Did you learn anything between 5:15 and 7:30 about how the murders occurred?

# 3663 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry. Did she learn?

# 3664 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 3665 DENISE BROWN:

No.

# 3666 Q:

You didn't see any news reports about the between 6:15 and 7:30 --

# 3667 A:

No.

# 3668 Q:

Were you in the room when Tanya was talking to O.J. on June 13th, 1994?

# 3669 A:

The only thing I remember is "You killed her. You murdered her. You said you would."

# 3670 Q:

She said the exact same thing you did --

# 3671 A:

Yeah.

# 3672 Q:

-- to O.J. on that phone call?

# 3673 A:

Yeah.

# 3674 JOHN KELLY:

Let him finish the question. Repeat the question, Phil.

# 3675 Q:

Tanya said the exact same thing you did to on June 13th, 1994?

# 3676 A:

I don't know if it was the exact same thing, but I know she said, "You killed them. You killed her."

# 3677 Q:

How long did Tanya speak with O.J.?

# 3678 A:

A matter of seconds.

# 3679 Q:

Did she hang up?

# 3680 A:

Yeah.

# 3681 Q:

Do you know if Lou or Judy or Dominique spoke to O.J. Simpson on June 13th, 1994?

# 3682 A:

I don't know.

# 3683 JOHN KELLY:

At any time?

# 3684 PHILLIP BAKER:

At any time.

# 3685 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know.

# 3686 Q:

You weren't in a room when Judy, Lou or Dominique ever spoke to O.J. Simpson on the phone on June 13th, 1994?

# 3687 A:

No.

# 3688 Q:

Did you leave your house on June 13th, 1994?

# 3689 A:

Not that I recall. No.

# 3690 Q:

Did you have a discussion with

A.C. Cowlings on June 13th, 1994, when he brought Sydney and Justin?

# 3691 A:

I'm sure, yes.

# 3692 Q:

What do you recall from the conversation you had with

A.C. on June 13th?

# 3693 A:

Just about it not being possible. We couldn't believe that Nicole was dead.

# 3694 Q:

What did you say to

A.C. on June 13th?

# 3695 A:

Specifically?

# 3696 Q:

Yes.

# 3697 A:

I don't remember.

# 3698 Q:

Give me what you best recall you saying to

A.C. on June 13th.

# 3699 A:

About not believing that my sister was dead.

# 3700 Q:

What did

A.C. say to you?

# 3701 A:

Specifically?

# 3702 Q:

As best as you can recall.

# 3703 A:

He couldn't believe it either. We were both crying.

# 3704 Q:

Did you accuse O.J. Simpson of committing the crimes to

A.C. Cowlings on June 13th, 1994?

# 3705 A:

I don't remember.

# 3706 Q:

Did you see Judy talk to

A.C. on June 13th, 1994?

# 3707 A:

I -- Yes.

# 3708 Q:

Did you overhear any conversations she had with

A.C. on that date?

# 3709 A:

No.

# 3710 Q:

Did you overhear any conversation between Lou and

A.C. on June 13th, 1994?

# 3711 A:

No.

# 3712 Q:

Did you overhear any conversation with Dominique and

A.C. on June 13th, 1394?

# 3713 A:

No.

# 3714 Q:

Did you overhear any conversation between Tanya and

A.C. on June 13th, 1994?

# 3715 A:

No.

# 3716 Q:

Had you learned anything new about the crimes between 7:30 when you talked to O.J. and about 11:00 o'clock when

A.C. arrived at your house?

# 3717 A:

I don't think so, no.

# 3718 Q:

When was the next time that you talked to any police officer?

# 3719 JOHN KELLY:

After --

# 3720 PHILLIP BAKER:

Following the 6:30 phone call of June 13th, 1994.

# 3721 JOHN KELLY:

If ever.

# 3722 DENISE BROWN:

Gosh, I don't remember.

# 3723 Q:

Did you have any other phone calls with any police officer on that day other than the 6:30 call?

# 3724 A:

No.

# 3725 Q:

Did you talk to any police officers on June 14th, 1994?

# 3726 A:

I don't think so.

# 3727 Q:

Did you talk to any police officers on June 15th, 1994?

# 3728 A:

I don't think so.

# 3729 Q:

Anytime within the next week following Nicole's death, did you talk to any police officers?

# 3730 A:

I don't think so.

# 3731 Q:

You assisted in cleaning Nicole's Bundy condominium, did you not?

# 3732 A:

Yes.

# 3733 Q:

When did that take place?

# 3734 A:

I was up there on Friday the -- the 17th.

# 3735 Q:

Did you talk to any police officers on June 17th, 1994? -

# 3736 A:

I don't think so.

# 3737 Q:

Had anybody from the district attorney's office tried to contact you between June 12th and June 17th, 1994?

# 3738 JOHN KELLY:

Well, tried to or did they?

# 3739 Q:

Did they contact you?

# 3740 A:

I don't think so.

# 3741 Q:

By the way, you referred to Marcia and Bill on a first-name basis earlier. Have you spoken to either one of them recently?

# 3742 A:

No.

# 3743 Q:

Have you spoken to either one of them since the October 3rd, 1995, verdict?

# 3744 A:

No.

# 3745 Q:

Have you spoken to Chris Darden following the October 3rd, 1995, verdict?

# 3746 A:

No.

# 3747 Q:

Have you spoken to Gil Garcetti since the October 3rd, 1995, acquittal?

# 3748 A:

No.

# 3749 Q:

Have you spoken to Tom Lange following the October 3rd, 1995, acquittal?

# 3750 A:

No.

# 3751 Q:

Have you spoken to Phil Vannatter or Ron Phillips following the October 3rd, 1995, acquittal?

# 3752 A:

No.

# 3753 Q:

Have you spoken to Dennis Gonzalez or Mark Fuhrman following the October 3rd, 1995, acquittal?

# 3754 A:

No.

# 3755 Q:

Have you spoken to anybody associated with the Los Angeles Police Department following the acquittal on October 3rd?

# 3756 A:

No.

# 3757 Q:

Have you spoken to anyone associated with the district attorney's office following the acquittal on October 3rd?

# 3758 A:

No.

# 3759 Q:

Who assisted in cleaning Nicole's condominium on June 17th, 1994?

# 3760 A:

It was myself, my father. Who else was there? I think Dominique was there. My brother Rolf, R-o-l-f, was there. Who else was there? Jason ended up showing up with a friend of his. I don't remember who that friend is. Ron Hardy. That's all I remember.

# 3761 Q:

Did you see Cora Fischman on June 17th, 1994?

# 3762 A:

She tried to come into the -- into the residence, but we told her not to.

# 3763 Q:

Why did you tell Cora not to come into the residence?

# 3764 A:

We didn't need her there cleaning up.

# 3765 Q:

So Cora Fischman never stepped inside residence of Nicole's condo June 17th, 1994?

# 3766 A:

No.

# 3767 Q:

She certainly never went upstairs in Nicole's condominium on June 17th, 1994; correct?

# 3768 A:

Correct.

# 3769 Q:

Did anybody -- Strike that. Were you -- Who opened Nicole's condominium on June 17th, 1994?

# 3770 A:

I don't know. Possibly my father or Ron Hardy.

# 3771 Q:

Who is Ron Hardy?

# 3772 A:

A friend of Nicole's.

# 3773 Q:

He had keys to her condominium?

# 3774 A:

I don't know if he did then. It was probably my father.

# 3775 Q:

Do you know of any other person other than Nicole that had keys to her condominium?

# 3776 A:

Yeah. She told me O.J. took her keys a week before she was murdered.

# 3777 Q:

Anybody else?

# 3778 A:

No.

# 3779 Q:

Did she never tell you that Cora Fischman had keys to her condo --

# 3780 A:

No.

# 3781 Q:

-- condominium?

# 3782 A:

No.

# 3783 Q:

What rooms did you clean out of Nicole's condominium?

# 3784 A:

Oh, I was working upstairs in the bedroom. I was working in her bathroom, her kitchen.

# 3785 Q:

What time of day did you arrive to clean up Nicole's condominium on June 17th?

# 3786 A:

I think it was in the morning sometime.

# 3787 Q:

Before noon?

# 3788 A:

I think so, yeah.

# 3789 Q:

Before 10:00 o'clock?

# 3790 A:

I -- I don't know. It was possibly about 10:30 maybe.

# 3791 Q:

How did you get to Nicole's condominium on June 17th, 1994?

# 3792 A:

We drove up.

# 3793 Q:

Who is "we"?

# 3794 A:

With my father and Dominique.

# 3795 Q:

Was anybody already there at the condominium when you arrived?

# 3796 A:

That I don't remember.

# 3797 Q:

Describe the walkway as best as you can recall on June 17th, 1994.

# 3798 A:

The walkway?

# 3799 Q:

The walkway leading up to Nicole's condominium.

# 3800 JOHN KELLY:

The front walkway?

# 3801 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 3802 DENISE BROWN:

I didn't go out there on June 17th.

# 3803 Q:

Did you see at all the walkway on the side of Nicole's condominium where the crimes were committed on June 17th, 1994?

# 3804 JOHN KELLY:

Well, if you know the crimes were committed on the side of her condominium.

# 3805 DENISE BROWN:

I didn't go out her front door.

# 3806 Q:

Did anyone ever tell you they found something unusual around the -- around the location where Nicole and Ron were killed? Did anyone tell you that June 17th, 1994?

# 3807 A:

Anything unusual?

# 3808 Q:

Yes.

# 3809 A:

What is unusual?

# 3810 Q:

Did anyone say they found anything around the location where Ron and Nicole were killed when you were there on June 17th, 1994?

# 3811 A:

No.

# 3812 Q:

Did anyone ever tell you they found a knit cap at the location where Ron and Nicole were killed after June 14tn, 1994?

# 3813 A:

No.

# 3814 Q:

Do you know if -- Did anyone wash down the walkway where Nicole and Ron were killed on June 17th, 1994?

# 3815 A:

Not on June 17th.

# 3816 Q:

When you were cleaning out the condominium, you don't know of anyone who was washing down the area where Ron and Nicole were killed?

# 3817 A:

That happened 3 days before or 2 days before.

# 3818 Q:

June 14th, 199- --

# 3819 A:

I think they were up there on a Tuesday before that.

# 3820 Q:

Who is "they"?

# 3821 A:

I think my brother and Ron washed down the -- down the blood.

# 3822 Q:

You weren't there --

# 3823 A:

No.

# 3824 Q:

-- when they washed -- washed the --

# 3825 JOHN KELLY:

Let him finish.

# 3826 Q:

-- the walkway down on June 14th, 1994?

# 3827 A:

No.

# 3828 Q:

Did they tell you they had found anything at the location when they washed down the walkway?

# 3829 A:

No.

# 3830 Q:

How did they describe the walkway that they washed down on June 14' h, 1994?

# 3831 A:

I didn't want to hear it. I didn't -- didn't ask.

# 3832 Q:

They never described it to you at all, what they washed down on June 14th, 1994?

# 3833 A:

I didn't want to hear it.

# 3834 Q:

Did they tell you that they had to clean the entire area on June 14th, 1994?

# 3835 A:

They said they cleaned the walkway and they cleaned the fence.

# 3836 Q:

They told you they cleaned the walkway and the fence on June 14th, 1994?

# 3837 JOHN KELLY:

Which fence?

# 3838 DENISE BROWN:

They just said "fence."

# 3839 Q:

Rolf and Ron told you they cleaned the walkway and fence on June 14th, 1994; correct?

# 3840 A:

Yes.

# 3841 Q:

Where did they tell you that they cleaned the walkway and the fence on June 14th, 1994?

# 3842 JOHN KELLY:

Well, presumably at the walkway and fence. But go ahead and answer.

# 3843 PHILLIP BAKER:

Where did they tell her that.

# 3844 DENISE BROWN:

At the front gate of Nicole's house.

# 3845 Q:

When did they tell you this?

# 3846 A:

I don't remember. After they got done doing it or that next day, the next time I saw them.

# 3847 Q:

First time you were at Nicole's condominium following the crimes was June 17th, 1994; correct?

# 3848 A:

Yes.

# 3849 Q:

And as far as you know, they washed down the walkway and fence on June 14th, 1994; correct?

# 3850 A:

If that's the date, yes.

# 3851 Q:

You said earlier it was about 3 days before?

# 3852 A:

Yeah. It was a Tuesday.

# 3853 Q:

Where were you -- Who told you they had washed down the walkway; and fence? Was it Rolf or Ron or both?

# 3854 A:

I think they both mentioned it.

# 3855 Q:

Do you know where Ron Hardy presently lives?

# 3856 A:

No.

# 3857 Q:

Do you know where Rolf presently lives?

# 3858 A:

Yeah. It's -- I think --

# 3859 JOHN KELLY:

Well, we will write it down for you.

# 3860 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know the address.

# 3861 JOHN KELLY:

We won't write it down for you. We'll get it for you, though.

# 3862 Q:

What city?

# 3863 A:

I think it's Fountain Valley.

# 3864 Q:

Did they tell you they had washed the walkway and fence when you were there on June 17th, 1994?

# 3865 A:

That is a possibility.

# 3866 Q:

Do you remember anything else they told you about when they cleaned the side walkway --

# 3867 A:

No.

# 3868 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry?

# 3869 DENISE BROWN:

No.

# 3870 JOHN KELLY:

She never said they cleaned the side walkway. She said they cleaned the front sidewalk and gate, as I recall, fence.

# 3871 PHILLIP BAKER:

I don't think she said that.

# 3872 JOHN KELLY:

Why don't you ask her again.

# 3873 PHILLIP BAKER:

I don't think she said that, Johnny --

# 3874 JOHN KELLY:

Ask it again. You think it will keep me from saying "don't answer that' if you call me ''Johnny," boy --

# 3875 Q:

Did you find anything unusual in the condominium on June 17th, 1994?

# 3876 A:

I wasn't looking for anything.

# 3877 Q:

Did you find anything unusual on June 17th, 1994?

# 3878 (Shakes head in the negative.)

# 3879 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry? Could we get the answer on the record.

# 3880 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know what unusual was or is.

# 3881 JOHN KELLY:

Just answer --

# 3882 DENISE BROWN:

No.

# 3883 Q:

Did you find any photographs of O.J. Simpson in her condominium on June 17th, 1994?

# 3884 A:

Put in boxes, yes.

# 3885 Q:

They were -- already been placed in boxes when you cleaned her apartment on June 17, 1994?

# 3886 A:

We were putting them in boxes.

# 3887 Q:

How many photographs of O.J. Simpson did you find in her condominium on June 17th, 1994?

# 3888 A:

Thousands.

# 3889 Q:

Did you find any letters that O.J. Simpson had sent to her when you cleaned her bedroom out on June 17, 1994?

# 3890 A:

I don't know.

# 3891 Q:

You don't recall finding any letters when you cleaned out her bedroom on June 17, 1994?

# 3892 A:

I wasn't looking for anything. I just packed the stuff in boxes.

# 3893 Q:

By the way, were any items of Nicole's ever returned to your family by the Los Angeles Police Department?

# 3894 A:

I don't know.

# 3895 Q:

Do you know if any of her earrings, watch, personal jewelry were returned to your family by the Los Angeles Police Department following June 12th, 1994?

# 3896 A:

I don't know.

# 3897 Q:

You have never heard that a watch of Nicole's was returned to your family by the Los Angeles Police Department?

# 3898 A:

No.

# 3899 Q:

Have you ever discussed with anyone the items returned to your family by the Los Angeles Police Department?

# 3900 A:

No.

# 3901 Q:

Who is Tom [Name Deleted]?

# 3902 A:

friend of Nicole and O.J.

# 3903 Q:

Have you ever spoken to him after June 12, 1994?

# 3904 A:

I don't know.

# 3905 Q:

Have you ever told Tom [Name Deleted] that Ron Goldman had lipstick on him when he was murdered on June 12, 1994?

# 3906 A:

No.

# 3907 Q:

Have you ever told Tom [Name Deleted] that Nicole Simpson's watch had been broken at 10:00 o'clock on the night of June 12th, 1994?

# 3908 A:

No.

# 3909 Q:

Have you told anyone Nicole Simpson's watch, stainless steel Swiss Army watch, has been broken at approximately 9:58 on the night of June 12th, 1994?

# 3910 A:

No.

# 3911 Q:

You never told Tom [Name Deleted] that?

# 3912 A:

No.

# 3913 PHILLIP BAKER:

Just for the record, as we did during Judy's deposition, I just ask that the plaintiffs preserve all the items returned from the Los Angeles Police Department presently in a safe-deposit box. We will be serving production of documents and things on you, and we would request you preserve these items presently.

# 3914 Q:

Have you ever seen the safe-deposit box which contains Nicole's belongings?

# 3915 A:

No.

# 3916 Q:

Have you ever talked to any member of your family about the items returned from the Los Angeles Police Department of Nicole's belongings?

# 3917 A:

No.

# 3918 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 3919 Q:

When did Nicole tell you that O.J. had taken her keys?

# 3920 A:

About a week before she was killed.

# 3921 Q:

Where were you?

# 3922 A:

On the telephone.

# 3923 Q:

Where were you when this phone call took place?

# 3924 A:

Sitting in our kitchen.

# 3925 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry. Did you say a phone call?

# 3926 DENISE BROWN:

Yes,

# 3927 JOHN KELLY:

I'm sorry.

# 3928 Q:

Kitchen at Monarch Bay?

# 3929 A:

Yes.

# 3930 Q:

And it was in early June of 1994?

# 3931 A:

Yes.

# 3932 Q:

Who called whom?

# 3933 A:

Nicole called me.

# 3934 Q:

Tell me everything you recall from that conversation in early June of 1994.

# 3935 A:

Oh, I don't know. We were talking about anything and everything, the kids. And then she told me that her keys -- that O.J. had stolen her keys.

# 3936 Q:

Did this information concern you?

# 3937 A:

Yes.

# 3938 JOHN KELLY:

Sorry. Which information?

# 3939 Q:

That O.J. Simpson had stolen your sister's keys.

# 3940 A:

Yeah. It concerned me.

# 3941 Q:

What did you say after she told you that O.J. Simpson had stolen her keys?

# 3942 A:

I don't remember the rest of our conversation.

# 3943 Q:

That's the only thing you recall about the conversation in which she; told you O.J. had stolen her keys?

# 3944 A:

She didn't make a big issue out of it, I guess. I don't remember.

# 3945 Q:

Did she tell you which keys that were allegedly stolen by O.J.?

# 3946 A:

The house key.

# 3947 Q:

Did she describe the house key to you?

# 3948 A:

No.

# 3949 Q:

Did she tell you which keys that were allegedly stolen by O.J.?

# 3950 A:

The house key.

# 3951 Q:

Did she describe the house key to you?

# 3952 A:

No.

# 3953 A:

Did she tell you that that was her only set of keys?

# 3954 Q:

Yes.

# 3955 A:

No.

# 3956 Q:

Did she tell you which keys -- well, did -- She said O.J. just stole one key of hers?

# 3957 A:

She just said, ''He just stole my house key."

# 3958 Q:

Did that key open the front gate?

# 3959 A:

I don't know.

# 3960 Q:

Did you ask her if that key opened the front gate?

# 3961 A:

No.

# 3962 Q:

Did you ask her how O.J. stole her house key?

# 3963 A:

I don't remember.

# 3964 Q:

Did you ask her how she thought O.J. had stolen the house key?

# 3965 A:

I don't remember.

# 3966 Q:

Did you ask her why she believed O.J. had stolen the house key?

# 3967 A:

Did I ask her -- Say that again.

# 3968 Q:

Did you ask her why she, Nicole, thought O.J. had stolen the house key?

# 3969 A:

Ask her why?

# 3970 Q:

Why she thought -- why Nicole thought O.J. had stolen the house key.

# 3971 A:

I don't know why.

# 3972 Q:

Did you ask her that?

# 3973 A:

Oh -- I don't know.

# 3974 Q:

Did you tell anybody about -- tell any members of your family in early June of 1994 that Nicole had told you that O.J. had stolen one of her house keys?

# 3975 A:

Possibly.

# 3976 Q:

Who?

# 3977 A:

I don't know.

# 3978 Q:

Do you know if it was Judy?

# 3979 A:

I don't know.

# 3980 Q:

Do you know if it was Dominique?

# 3981 A:

I don't know.

# 3982 Q:

Do you recall when you may have told some person in your family about how O.J. stole Nicole's house key?

# 3983 A:

It was just in conversation.

# 3984 Q:

Where did this conversation take place?

# 3985 A:

Possibly in the kitchen. I don't know.

# 3986 Q:

And who was there when you had this on about Nicole telling you that O.J. had stolen key?

# 3987 A:

I don't know who was there.

# 3988 Q:

How many members of the family were there when you told them O.J. had stolen Nicole's house key?

# 3989 JOHN KELLY:

If anybody.

# 3990 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know. I don't know who was all there.

# 3991 Q:

When did this conversation take place? Was it before Nicole's death?

# 3992 A:

Oh, yeah. It was after Nicole had told me. It wasn't a real conversation.

# 3993 JOHN KELLY:

Just answer the question.

# 3994 Q:

What was not a real conversation?

# 3995 A:

It wasn't an issue that he stole her house key, just something that was said.

# 3996 Q:

Didn't she just tell you about a month previously that O.J. Simpson had veins popping out of his neck and offered $5,000 to have sex with her?

# 3997 A:

Yes.

# 3998 Q:

Then within 3 weeks, she tells you O.J. Simpson had stolen her house key?

# 3999 A:

She also said a lot more than that.

# 4000 Q:

In that 3-week period?

# 4001 A:

Yes.

# 4002 Q:

What else did she say other than that?

# 4003 A:

He was threatening to throw her out of the house and expose her to the IRS.

# 4004 Q:

He was threatening to throw her out of the house and -- So she lived with O.J. Simpson between May 8th --

# 4005 A:

No.

# 4006 Q:

-- 1994 and early June 1994?

# 4007 A:

No.

# 4008 JOHN KELLY:

She said nothing of the sort.

# 4009 Q:

What house --

# 4010 A:

She was in her Bundy house --

# 4011 Q:

He was threatening to throw her out of her Bundy house?

# 4012 A:

Yes.

# 4013 Q:

Did you hear him threaten to throw her out of her Bundy house?

# 4014 A:

No.

# 4015 Q:

Did you hear him threaten to report her to the IRS for using the Rockingham estate for her principal place of residence?

# 4016 A:

No.

# 4017 Q:

How did you hear that O.J. Simpson was threatening to throw her out of the house?

# 4018 A:

Nicole told me.

# 4019 Q:

When did she tell you this?

# 4020 A:

I think the day after it happened.

# 4021 Q:

When was that?

# 4022 A:

Oh, gosh. I don't remember the date.

# 4023 JOHN KELLY:

Date or day.

# 4024 DENISE BROWN:

Day or date.

# 4025 Q:

Was it early May of 1994, late May of 1994?

# 4026 JOHN KELLY:

She didn't say anything about May of 1994.

# 4027 DENISE BROWN:

I don't --

# 4028 Q:

Was it in 1994 that he threatened to throw her out of the house?

# 4029 A:

I think -- Gosh, I don't remember the date right now.

# 4030 JOHN KELLY:

Want to take a break?

# 4031 THE REPORTER:

Could we take a break?

# 4032 ROBERT BAKER:

You deserve it. Believe me, you deserve it.

# 4033 (A recess is taken.)

# 4034 Q:

How did you learn --

# 4035 (Interruption in proceedings.)

# 4036 Q:

How did you learn that O.J. Simpson was trying to throw her out of the house?

# 4037 A:

Nicole -

# 4038 JOHN KELLY:

June 1994, talking --

# 4039 PHILLIP BAKER:

I don't know.

# 4040 DENISE BROWN:

Nicole told me.

# 4041 Q:

When did she tell you this?

# 4042 A:

She told me this a week before she was murdered.

# 4043 Q:

How did she tell you about --

# 4044 A:

Over the phone.

# 4045 Q:

Was this the same phone call you had in which O.J. Simpson told you that -- in which Nicole told you that O.J. had stolen one of her keys?

# 4046 A:

No.

# 4047 Q:

This was a separate phone call?

# 4048 A:

Yes.

# 4049 Q:

How long after the phone call in which Nicole told you O.J. Simpson had stolen her keys did she tell you that O.J. Simpson was threatening to throw her out of the house?

# 4050 A:

I don't remember.

# 4051 Q:

Was it a week after? a month after? Give me your best estimate, ma'am.

# 4052 A:

I don't know. A couple of days, a week.

# 4053 Q:

Tell me exactly what you recall from that conversation, the second conversation in which she told you that O.J. Simpson was threatening to throw her out of the house.

# 4054 A:

I remember her being very upset. She was crying on the phone. She couldn't believe that the father of her children wanted to throw her and her kids out of the house. And I told her to get a tape recording of the conversation, because she was so upset, get a tape recording with a girlfriend of hers, with someone that she knew. And I said, "Why not use Chris and tape-record the conversation and let her" -- "let somebody know that you are so scared."

# 4055 Q:

You told her that she should get a tape recording with a girlfriend of hers, perhaps Chris Jenner, of a conversation with O.J. in which he threatens to throw her out of her Bundy condominium? That was your recommendation?

# 4056 A:

I didn't say Jenner.

# 4057 Q:

Okay.

# 4058 JOHN KELLY:

She didn't say a conversation of O.J.

# 4059 Q:

What did you want the tape recording to be of?

# 4060 A:

The threats that were made to her and how scared she was and how -- just everything that she had told me about her being so scared.

# 4061 Q:

Which Chris did you mean?

# 4062 A:

Chris Jenner.

# 4063 Q:

And you wanted to tape-record threats that O.J. was making to Nicole?

# 4064 A:

I told Nicole that that is what she should do.

# 4065 Q:

She was calling and -- She was confiding her concerns about O.J. to you; correct?

# 4066 A:

Say that again. Sorry.

# 4067 Q:

She was confiding her concerns about O.J. to you in early June and late May 1994; correct?

# 4068 A:

What conversation are we on now? I am lost.

# 4069 Q:

Any conversation.

# 4070 A:

Say it again.

# 4071 Q:

She was confiding with you her -- She was confiding with you her concerns about O.J. Simpson in late May and early June of 1994; correct?

# 4072 A:

Yes, yes.

# 4073 Q:

And your recommendation was to try to tape-record some of these threats that O.J. Simpson was making to her; correct?

# 4074 A:

Correct --

# 4075 Q:

And --

# 4076 A:

-- so that she would have it on tape.

# 4077 JOHN KELLY:

Go ahead. Keep answering.

# 4078 DENISE BROWN:

So she would have it on tape. If she was so scared for her life, she would have it on tape she was telling somebody.

# 4079 Q:

Did she ever make these tapes, as far as you know?

# 4080 A:

I don't know.

# 4081 Q:

Why didn't you try to help her make these tape recordings?

# 4082 A:

Because I wasn't living up in Los Angeles.

# 4083 Q:

You stayed with Nicole 5 to 10 times at the Bundy condominium. Why didn't you say, "I'll try to help you make these tape recordings"?

# 4084 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Half a dozen she said.

# 4085 DENISE BROWN:

Because I wasn't up there a week before she was murdered.

# 4086 Q:

You had no plans of going up there after she told you about these -- how O.J. was going to throw her out of the house, did you?

# 4087 A:

No. She said she was going to get in touch with Chris.

# 4088 Q:

My question was, she told you that O.J. was threatening to throw her out of the house; correct?

# 4089 A:

Right.

# 4090 Q:

And you had no plans of going up to see your sister after she told you this; correct?

# 4091 A:

I -- I don't think so.

# 4092 Q:

In fact your recommendation was to have Chris Jenner try to deal with it; correct?

# 4093 A:

Not to deal with it, to get a tape recording of telling a friend.

# 4094 Q:

Let me get this straight. In May of 1994, she tells you about this purported offer to have sex with her; correct?

# 4095 A:

Correct.

# 4096 Q:

And then you have a conversation with her in which she tells you that she -- O.J. Simpson has stolen her keys, May 1994; correct?

# 4097 A:

I don't know if it was May.

# 4098 JOHN KELLY:

She didn't say May. She said a week before her death.

# 4099 Q:

Late May or early June 1994, Nicole tells you that O.J. Simpson has now stolen her keys; correct?

# 4100 A:

Correct.

# 4101 Q:

And then you get a phone call from her, and she says O.J. Simpson is trying to throw her out of the house; correct?

# 4102 A:

Correct.

# 4103 Q:

And you hug and kiss O.J. at the recital on June 12th, 1994, don't you?

# 4104 A:

I didn't hug and kiss O.J. Simpson.

# 4105 Q:

Well, you certainly gave him a kiss, didn't you, on June 12?

# 4106 A:

I gave him a kiss on the cheek to say, "Good-bye."

# 4107 Q:

Did you tell the police about this conversation you have with Nicole where she says to you that O.J. is trying to throw her out of the house?

# 4108 A:

I don't remember.

# 4109 Q:

Well, you certainly answered all the questions the police asked of you truthfully and honestly.

# 4110 JOHN KELLY:

I believe she indicated she never talked to the police.

# 4111 DENISE BROWN:

I talked to Marcia Clark and Bill Hodgman.

# 4112 Q:

You certainly answered their questions honestly; correct?

# 4113 A:

Yes.

# 4114 Q:

Did you mention this purported phone call about how O.J. -- Nicole -- Nicole tells you -- is threatened by O.J. to throw her out of the house?

# 4115 A:

Yes.

# 4116 Q:

You did tell Marcia and Bill Hodgman about that phone call?

# 4117 A:

I'm pretty sure, yes.

# 4118 Q:

Pretty sure or do you know for a fact?

# 4119 A:

I think I told them.

# 4120 Q:

Did you tell them that one week prior to her death, Nicole told you that O.J. had stolen her keys?

# 4121 A:

I think so.

# 4122 Q:

Did you tell Marcia and Bill that you recommended to Nicole that she do a tape recording with Chris Jenner of the threats that O.J. Simpson was making?

# 4123 A:

Either Chris Jenner or a friend of hers.

# 4124 Q:

Did you tell Marcia Clark and Bill Hodgman of your recommendation?

# 4125 A:

I think so.

# 4126 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 4127 Q:

When Nicole told you that O.J. was threatening to throw her out of the house, you understood that to mean that he was going to report her to the IRS, did you not?

# 4128 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. Asked and answered. Do you want to answer it for the last time about the IRS?

# 4129 DENISE BROWN:

She told me that.

# 4130 Q:

Well, when she told you O.J. Simpson was threatening to throw her out of the house, she didn't mean physically; correct?

# 4131 A:

She said through the IRS, he was going to get her thrown out of the house.

# 4132 Q:

For financial reasons; correct?

# 4133 A:

I -- For whatever the reason is.

# 4134 Q:

Did Nicole have a key to the Rockingham estate?

# 4135 JOHN KELLY:

At what period of time?

# 4136 PHILLIP BAKER:

June 1994.

# 4137 DENISE BROWN:

I don't think so.

# 4138 Q:

Did O.J. Simpson have a key to the Bundy condominium, as far as you know, prior to this purported phone call?

# 4139 JOHN KELLY:

Which purported phone call?

# 4140 DENISE BROWN:

The phone call when Nicole relates to Denise that O.J. has stolen Nicole's key.

# 4141 JOHN KELLY:

Whether he stole one in addition to the one he had? You can answer that if you --

# 4142 DENISE BROWN:

I don't think he had a key.

# 4143 Q:

What knowledge do you have whatsoever that O.J. Simpson did not have a key to Nicole Brown's condominium prior to May 25th, 1994?

# 4144 A:

They were divorced. He doesn't need a key.

# 4145 Q:

That's the only basis for your knowledge that O.J. did not have Nicole's key prior to May of 1994?

# 4146 JOHN KELLY:

You are mischaracterizing her previous --

# 4147 ROBERT BAKER:

But she can answer it "no."

# 4148 JOHN KELLY:

She said she did not know if he had a key.

# 4149 ROBERT BAKER:

That is not what she said. Quit coaching the witness and let her answer.

# 4150 JOHN KELLY:

I am trying to prevent repetition. Why don't we read the question back.

# 4151 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 4152 JOHN KELLY:

Will you rephrase the question, please.

# 4153 ROBERT BAKER:

You can answer that.

# 4154 Q:

Can you answer that?

# 4155 JOHN KELLY:

It's repetitive, confusing, vague, and I don't think she knows -- mischaracterizing her own testimony.

# 4156 PHILLIP BAKER:

I am not characterizing her testimony. I am just asking her a question.

# 4157 JOHN KELLY:

Could you rephrase it.

# 4158 Q:

What information do you have --

# 4159 JOHN KELLY:

If any.

# 4160 Q:

-- if any, that O.J. Simpson did not have Nicole's Bundy condominium key prior to this phone call you 261 had with Nicole?

# 4161 A:

Prior to the phone call, none.

# 4162 Q:

Who was Nicole dating in 1994, as far as you know?

# 4163 JOHN KELLY:

At what period of time?

# 4164 PHILLIP BAKER:

1994.

# 4165 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered.

# 4166 Q:

You can answer.

# 4167 JOHN KELLY:

No, she can't. Asked and answered already. We went through this for about an hour about who, if anybody, she was dating in 1994.

# 4168 Q:

Who was she dating in 1993?

# 4169 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered.

# 4170 Q:

1992.

# 4171 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. They were all asked and answered. I could give you all the answers.

# 4172 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

That is when she talked about Brett and Joseph and Alex.

# 4173 JOHN KELLY:

We covered all of it.

# 4174 Q:

Who assisted you in cleaning Nicole's bedroom on June 17th, 1994?

# 4175 A:

Everybody.

# 4176 Q:

Were you all in the bedroom at the same time?

# 4177 A:

I know my father and I, we were in the bathroom at the same time at one point.

# 4178 Q:

When you cleaned out --

# 4179 ROBERT BAKER:

She didn't answer the question. Have her answer the question you asked her.

# 4180 PHILLIP BAKER:

Could you repeat the question, please.

# 4181 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 4182 JOHN KELLY:

Will you ask that again. Ask the question again.

# 4183 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 4184 JOHN KELLY:

If you know.

# 4185 DENISE BROWN:

In and out, no.

# 4186 Q:

Did Lou help you clean out Nicole's bedroom?

# 4187 A:

At different times.

# 4188 Q:

Did Judy help you clean out Nicole's bedroom?

# 4189 A:

Judy wasn't there.

# 4190 Q:

Did Jason help you clean out Nicole's bedroom?

# 4191 A:

No.

# 4192 Q:

Did Rolf help you clean out Nicole's bedroom?

# 4193 A:

I don't think he was up there either.

# 4194 Q:

Did Ron help you clean out Nicole's bedroom?

# 4195 JOHN KELLY:

Ron?

# 4196 PHILLIP BAKER:

Hardy.

# 4197 DENISE BROWN:

I don't think he was up there.

# 4198 Q:

Did you ever see

A.C. Cowlings on June 17th, 1994?

# 4199 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

On TV.

# 4200 Q:

Did Nicole give gloves for gifts?

# 4201 JOHN KELLY:

At any time?

# 4202 PHILLIP BAKER:

Anytime.

# 4203 JOHN KELLY:

Any gloves?

# 4204 PHILLIP BAKER:

Any gloves.

# 4205 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know.

# 4206 Q:

Have you ever told anyone that Nicole gave gifts to people?

# 4207 A:

No.

# 4208 Q:

Never told any individual that?

# 4209 A:

She never gave me any gloves.

# 4210 Q:

Did you ever tell any individual that Nicole gave gloves as gifts to people?

# 4211 A:

No.

# 4212 Q:

Did anyone ever tell you they received gloves from Nicole?

# 4213 A:

No.

# 4214 (Discussion is held off the record.)

# 4215 Q:

When did you first learn that O.J. and Nicole were going to be divorced?

# 4216 A:

They were going to be divorced?

# 4217 Q:

Yes.

# 4218 A:

I don't know.

# 4219 Q:

Were you pleased when you heard that O.J Simpson and Nicole were going to be divorced?

# 4220 A:

I thought it's about time.

# 4221 Q:

Why did you think it was about time?

# 4222 A:

Because he was not very nice to her.

# 4223 Q:

When did you see him not being very nice to her other than the La Cantina incident?

# 4224 A:

See her? I am catching it from you --

# 4225 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 4226 ROBERT BAKER:

Denise, you cannot cough while he coughs because you miss the code.

# 4227 DENISE BROWN:

Oh, I didn't know there was one.

# 4228 JOHN KELLY:

That means we are sick of this.

# 4229 DENISE BROWN:

Repeat the question. I'm sorry.

# 4230 (The record is read by the reporter.)

# 4231 Q:

The alleged La Cantina incident.

# 4232 A:

The Red Onion incident when he was grabbing her crotch.

# 4233 JOHN KELLY:

Answer the question, Denise.

# 4234 DENISE BROWN:

Well, that was the time. That was another time, when he grabbed her crotch and said, "This is where babies come from, and this belongs to me."

# 4235 Q:

When did that occur?

# 4236 A:

I don't know the year.

# 4237 Q:

Was it before Sean was born?

# 4238 A:

After Sean was born.

# 4239 Q:

Who was at the Red Onion on the night of this incident?

# 4240 A:

It was myself, it was Nicole, and it was O.J., and it was Dino, Reggie [Name Deleted], my sister Wendy and some other girlfriend of hers. I forget her name.

# 4241 Q:

Who is Dino?

# 4242 A:

Dino was my boyfriend at the time.

# 4243 Q:

Who is Reggie [Name Deleted]?

# 4244 A:

A friend of O.J.'s.

# 4245 Q:

Wendy is your sister?

# 4246 A:

Yes, half-sister.

# 4247 Q:

Is Rolf your half-brother?

# 4248 A:

He's actually my cousin.

# 4249 Q:

Do you have any other step-siblings?

# 4250 JOHN KELLY:

Other than?

# 4251 PHILLIP BAKER:

Wendy.

# 4252 JOHN KELLY:

And -- Oh, step. Okay.

# 4253 DENISE BROWN:

Yes. I have a half-sister who passed away, M.L., Margaret. I have a half-brother Tracy.

# 4254 Q:

What is Wendy's last name?

# 4255 A:

She uses Young. Young.

# 4256 Q:

Is she Judy or Lou's child?

# 4257 A:

Lou's.

# 4258 Q:

Where does Wendy Young currently live?

# 4259 A:

In Arizon

# 4260 Q:

When is the last time you talked to Wendy?

# 4261 A:

Oh, I think it was last either October or -- last October, November.

# 4262 Q:

Do you recall about what time of year this Red Onion incident occurred?

# 4263 A:

No, I don't.

# 4264 Q:

Was it before Nicole and O.J. were married?

# 4265 A:

It was after they were married.

# 4266 Q:

Was it before O.J. and Nicole were divorced that this purported Red Onion incident occurred?

# 4267 A:

Yes.

# 4268 Q:

Was it in the late '80s, mid-'80s? Do you recall when the Red Onion incident occurred

# 4269 A:

(Indicating.) It was after '86 because that is when Sean was born.

# 4270 Q:

Do you recall if it was before Justin was born that this alleged incident occurred?

# 4271 A:

That I don't know.

# 4272 Q:

Had you been drinking the night of this alleged incident?

# 4273 JOHN KELLY:

This -- Red Onion?

# 4274 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 4275 DENISE BROWN:

I think so.

# 4276 Q:

How much had you been drinking on the night of the purported Red Onion incident?

# 4277 A:

Not too much. We were dancing more.

# 4278 Q:

Dancing more?

# 4279 A:

Yeah.

# 4280 Q:

How did you arrive at the Red Onion?

# 4281 A:

We drove in.

# 4282 Q:

Who is "we"? ;

# 4283 A:

I don't know who was all in the car. I think we all crammed into one car.

# 4284 Q:

Where did you meet?

# 4285 A:

It was at the -- someplace in Newport Beach prior to going to the Red Onion.

# 4286 Q:

Was it a bar you met at in Newport Beach prior to going to the Red Onion?

# 4287 A:

No. I think it was at a hotel.

# 4288 Q:

Who was staying at the hotel?

# 4289 A:

You know what, I don't want to guess.

# 4290 Q:

Did you have any drinks at the hotel prior to going to the Red Onion?

# 4291 A:

No.

# 4292 Q:

Did you have any drinks on the way to the Red Onion?

# 4293 A:

No.

# 4294 Q:

What time did you arrive at the Red Onion?

# 4295 A:

Late enough to dance.

# 4296 Q:

Who was in the car that went to the Red Onion?

# 4297 A:

All the people I mentioned.

# 4298 Q:

Who drove?

# 4299 A:

I think it was O.J. drove.

# 4300 Q:

What car was he driving? Was he driving his Bronco?

# 4301 A:

No. It was the Rolls.

# 4302 Q:

So in the car traveling to the Red Onion was O.J., Nicole, yourself, Dino, Reggie [Name Deleted], Rolf and Wendy?

# 4303 A:

No. Rolf wasn't there.

# 4304 Q:

So in the car was Dino, yourself, Reggie [Name Deleted], O.J., Nicole and Wendy.

# 4305 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. But answer it again.

# 4306 DENISE BROWN:

Yes.

# 4307 Q:

Had any of you, as far as you know, been drinking prior to the time you arrived at the Red Onion?

# 4308 A:

Any of us? I had not. I don't know if anyone else had.

# 4309 Q:

Did you have any drinks at the Red Onion?

# 4310 A:

Yeah. I had a couple of drinks.

# 4311 Q:

What were you drinking --

# 4312 A:

Tequil

# 4313 Q:

Let me finish. I am trying to slow down.

# 4314 JOHN KELLY:

We will assume this is all on the night at the Red Onion.

# 4315 ROBERT BAKER:

The purported Red Onion.

# 4316 PHILLIP BAKER:

Did I finish my question?

# 4317 Q:

What time did you arrive at the Red Onion?

# 4318 A:

Late enough to dance.

# 4319 Q:

Well, I don't know what that means, to be honest with you, ma'am.

# 4320 A:

Well, I don't either.

# 4321 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Ask your dad.

# 4322 DENISE BROWN:

Well, late enough to dance, 11:00 possibly? 12:00.

# 4323 JOHN KELLY:

Whatever your best guess is.

# 4324 Q:

Had you had dinner before you all went to the Red Onion?

# 4325 A:

Not as a group, no.

# 4326 Q:

Who did you have dinner with that night before you went to the Red Onion?

# 4327 JOHN KELLY:

Asked and answered. Answer it if you know.

# 4328 DENISE BROWN:

Probably my family, if I ate.

# 4329 Q:

Which Red Onion did you go to?

# 4330 A:

I think it was in Santa An

# 4331 JOHN KELLY:

Well, off the record for a minute.

# 4332 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 4333 JOHN KELLY:

Let's go back on the record.

# 4334 DENISE BROWN:

I 'm sorry.

# 4335 Q:

How long before your divorce did you hear that O.J. and Nicole -- I apologize. How long before O.J. and Nicole's divorce did you hear that they were going to be divorced?

# 4336 A:

You know what, I don't remember when they got divorced.

# 4337 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you why she wanted to divorce O.J., if she did?

# 4338 JOHN KELLY:

Well, compound question. Could you just brake that up, Phil.

# 4339 Q:

Do you know who wanted the divorce, O.J. or Nicole?

# 4340 A:

Nicole.

# 4341 Q:

Did she tell you that?

# 4342 A:

Yeah.

# 4343 Q:

When did she tell you that?

# 4344 A:

I don't know how long it was before they actually got the divorce, but she told me she wanted a divorce. She wanted out. She was fed up.

# 4345 Q:

What else did -- Where did this conversation occur?

# 4346 A:

Oh, I don't know, over the phone or (indicating) --

# 4347 Q:

Did she tell you any of the reasons that she wanted to get a divorce from O.J. in this conversation?

# 4348 A:

# 4349 Q:

She just told you she wanted a divorce and she was fed up?

# 4350 A:

Yes.

# 4351 Q:

What was your response?

# 4352 A:

I said, "It's about time."

# 4353 Q:

What was her response -- Did she respond to that comment?

# 4354 A:

I don't remember.

# 4355 Q:

So you were pleased when you heard O.J. and Nicole were being divorced; true?

# 4356 A:

True.

# 4357 Q:

How long were they separated after the divorce? In other words, did they start to date again after they were divorced?

# 4358 A:

I think they did, but I don't know when.

# 4359 Q:

Do you know how long after the divorce they decided to start dating again?

# 4360 A:

No.

# 4361 Q:

Did she tell you that she was considering that she may date O.J. again after the divorce?

# 4362 A:

No.

# 4363 Q:

Do you know if O.J. wanted to start dating Nicole again or vice versa?

# 4364 A:

I --

# 4365 JOHN KELLY:

At what period of time, Phil?

# 4366 PHILLIP BAKER:

After the divorce.

# 4367 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know.

# 4368 Q:

Did she ever tell you that she wanted to see -- date O.J. Simpson again after the divorce in 1992?

# 4369 A:

No.

# 4370 Q:

Did she ever tell you she wanted to move back into Rockingham after their divorce in 1992?

# 4371 A:

No.

# 4372 Q:

Did she ever tell you she made a mistake in divorcing O.J. Simpson in 1992?

# 4373 A:

No.

# 4374 Q:

Did you ever tell anyone that Nicole had related to you that she wanted to get back with O.J. Simpson after their divorce in 1992?

# 4375 A:

Not that I recall, no.

# 4376 Q:

Did you tell anyone that you recall that Nicole told you after their divorce in 1992 that she wanted to move back into Rockingham?

# 4377 A:

I don't think I ever said that.

# 4378 Q:

Did you ever know, did Nicole ever share with you -- Did you ever see any letters that Nicole sent O.J. in 1994 and 1993?

# 4379 A:

I don't know.

# 4380 Q:

You have never seen any letters that Nicole sent O.J. in 1993 or 1994; correct?

# 4381 A:

I don't know.

# 4382 Q:

You don't recall you have seen them, or you did not see them?

# 4383 A:

I don't know if they were in 1993, 1994 or what letters you are talking about.

# 4384 Q:

Well, have you seen letters that Nicole has sent to O.J. Simpson?

# 4385 A:

I don't know if they were sent.

# 4386 Q:

Have you seen letters that Nicole drafted to O.J. Simpson?

# 4387 A:

I --

# 4388 JOHN KELLY:

You mean wrote?

# 4389 ROBERT BAKER:

That's better.

# 4390 DENISE BROWN:

That Nicole wrote, I have seen a letter that Nicole wrote, yeah.

# 4391 Q:

Where did you see this letter?

# 4392 A:

Actually we saw it when we found her diaries.

# 4393 Q:

What did the letter say?

# 4394 A:

Oh, God. Offhand I don't remember. I'm sure you have a copy.

# 4395 Q:

Did you turn this letter over to the police?

# 4396 A:

I think Marcia and Bill have it.

# 4397 Q:

Give me as best you can recall what the subject of this letter was that you found.

# 4398 A:

You know what, I am not even going to guess. I'm sorry.

# 4399 Q:

You have no recollection whatsoever what this letter was about?

# 4400 A:

No, but I know it was a letter from Nicole.

# 4401 Q:

Did it have a date on it?

# 4402 A:

I -- I just can't remember.

# 4403 Q:

This letter was -- You found this letter with the diaries or Nicole?

# 4404 A:

Yeah.

# 4405 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 4406 Q:

Was there anything inconsistent with what you found -- was there anything inconsistent with the subject matter of that letter and what you read in the diaries?

# 4407 JOHN KELLY:

Can you answer that? Do you understand that question?

# 4408 DENISE BROWN:

No.

# 4409 Q:

Was there anything different between her tone or the subject of that letter and the subject of the diaries you found of Nicole?

# 4410 A:

You know what, I don't remember. I don't want to say something wrong.

# 4411 Q:

You don't remember at all what the letter was about?

# 4412 A:

Vaguely, but I don't want to say --

# 4413 Q:

What do you vaguely remember?

# 4414 A:

Well, I don't want to say because if I say something wrong, you are going to hold it against me.

# 4415 Q:

I just want your best recollection of what you vaguely remember. Just tell me what you vaguely remember that letter being about.

# 4416 A:

As soon as I get it and reread it, I will let you know.

# 4417 Q:

But as you sit here today, you have a vague recollection of what the letter was about?

# 4418 A:

Vague.

# 4419 Q:

And what is that recollection?

# 4420 A:

I don't want to say.

# 4421 ROBERT BAKER:

It doesn't matter what you want to say or not.

# 4422 JOHN KELLY:

Do you remember?

# 4423 DENISE BROWN:

I really don't remember what the letter said. I remember it says "Dear O.J." and some content about the letter. But what it said, I don't really remember so I don't want to say.

# 4424 JOHN KELLY:

If you don't remember, don't say you vaguely remember.

# 4425 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

They think you remember but won't tell them.

# 4426 DENISE BROWN:

That's not the case at all.

# 4427 JOHN KELLY:

Then --

# 4428 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

You have to make the record.

# 4429 DENISE BROWN:

I remember "Dear O.J.," is what I vaguely remember.

# 4430 Q:

You remember that the letter starts out "Dear O.J."?

# 4431 A:

I know it says, "Dear O.J."

# 4432 Q:

You know -- As you sit here today, you vaguely remember this letter was favorable to O.J., do you not?

# 4433 A:

I don't remember.

# 4434 Q:

You certainly know that this letter was not negative towards O.J.; isn't that true?

# 4435 A:

I don't remember. Because I saw her notes and her diaries as well, and those were definitely negative toward O.J.

# 4436 Q:

You wanted to publish her diaries; is that true?

# 4437 A:

Absolutely not.

# 4438 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer.

# 4439 Q:

Did anyone ever offer you any money for Nicole's diaries?

# 4440 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 4441 Q:

Did anyone ever offer you money --

# 4442 ROBERT BAKER:

Why, is that irrelevant --

# 4443 JOHN KELLY:

Yes.

# 4444 ROBERT BAKER:

Somebody offering her money? We have a different --

# 4445 JOHN KELLY:

Clearly. The day started out with us having a different --

# 4446 ROBERT BAKER:

The day started out with me being on time and you not for the hundredth time in a row.

# 4447 Q:

Did anyone offer you any money for the letter you found from Nicole to O.J.?

# 4448 JOHN KELLY:

Don't answer it.

# 4449 Q:

Where is that letter?

# 4450 A:

I don't know.

# 4451 Q:

Did you copy it?

# 4452 A:

I didn't.

# 4453 Q:

Did you give it to your family?

# 4454 A:

No. Marcia and Bill must have it. I don't know if they still have it.

# 4455 Q:

Where did you find the diaries when you were cleaning out Nicole's bedroom, June 17th, 1994?

# 4456 A:

Actually my dad found them when we got back to my parents' house.

# 4457 Q:

Where did he find them?

# 4458 A:

In stuff that we had packed.

# 4459 Q:

Did he tell you where he found -- where the stuff had been packed -- the diaries had been packed from?

# 4460 A:

No.

# 4461 Q:

Did you read the entire diaries maintained by Nicole?

# 4462 A:

Not the entire diaries, no.

# 4463 Q:

Did you try to read any of the letters allegedly from Nicole?

# 4464 A:

The letters, the diaries?

# 4465 Q:

Yes.

# 4466 A:

Yeah. About the abuse.

# 4467 Q:

Was the letter that you found about abuse that O.J. Simpson had imparted on Nicole?

# 4468 JOHN KELLY:

I'm sorry. This is the one that -- to Simpson?

# 4469 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes.

# 4470 DENISE BROWN:

No, the diaries.

# 4471 PHILLIP BAKER:

No.

# 4472 Q:

I am asking you about the letter --

# 4473 A:

Okay. I'm sorry.

# 4474 Q:

-- the "Dear O.J." letter. Was it about abuse --

# 4475 A:

I don't remember.

# 4476 Q:

-- of O.J.? Did you ever find any of Nicole's wills?

# 4477 A:

Did I ever find them?

# 4478 Q:

Did you ever find a will of Nicole's?

# 4479 A:

Not me.

# 4480 Q:

Pardon me?

# 4481 A:

Not me.

# 4482 Q:

Have you ever seen any of Nicole's wills?

# 4483 A:

I think shortly, vaguely.

# 4484 Q:

How many wills of Nicole's have you seen?

# 4485 A:

I think she had 2.

# 4486 Q:

Have you seen them both?

# 4487 A:

Yeah.

# 4488 Q:

Where did you; see them?

# 4489 A:

At our house.

# 4490 Q:

Describe them to me to the best of your recollection.

# 4491 A:

I just remember one of them was handwritten and one was a typewritten -- typed will.

# 4492 Q:

Did you read both of them?

# 4493 A:

No.

# 4494 Q:

Did you read any portion of either of the wills?

# 4495 A:

No.

# 4496 Q:

Did you see if the wills were signed?

# 4497 A:

I didn't look.

# 4498 Q:

Did you see if the wills were notarized?

# 4499 A:

I didn't look.

# 4500 Q:

Did you see if there were any signatures of witnesses to the will?

# 4501 A:

I didn't look. I didn't pay attention.

# 4502 Q:

Where are the wills presently?

# 4503 A:

I don't know.

# 4504 Q:

When is the last time you've seen the wills?

# 4505 (Indicating.)

# 4506 JOHN KELLY:

If you know.

# 4507 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know.

# 4508 Q:

When you saw these wills, was it immediate following her death in June, or was it recently?

# 4509 A:

When did I see the will -- I don't know. I wasn't just recently.

# 4510 Q:

Was it in 1994?

# 4511 A:

I think it was after -- after her death.

# 4512 Q:

In 1994?

# 4513 A:

I -- I would think so.

# 4514 Q:

Who showed you the wills?

# 4515 JOHN KELLY:

If anybody.

# 4516 DENISE BROWN:

I think my dad had them.

# 4517 Q:

Where were the wills when you saw them?

# 4518 A:

In his hand.

# 4519 Q:

Where were you when you looked at the wills?

# 4520 A:

At the house.

# 4521 Q:

Did he discuss with you the content of the wills? Lou.

# 4522 A:

No.

# 4523 Q:

He just said, "Here are the wills"?

# 4524 A:

Well, he didn't hand them to me.

# 4525 Q:

How did you first see the wills?

# 4526 A:

Well, they were just there. He was talking about going to an attorney with them.

# 4527 Q:

Who was he talking about going to an attorney with?

# 4528 JOHN KELLY:

Well --

# 4529 DENISE BROWN:

He just told me he was going to take them to an attorney.

# 4530 Q:

Did you have any part of the estate as a result of the wills?

# 4531 JOHN KELLY:

If you know.

# 4532 DENISE BROWN:

I don't know what was in them actually.

# 4533 Q:

Did you ever ask, "Did any of the will provided anything for me personally?"

# 4534 A:

No.

# 4535 Q:

Do you know where the estate is to provide its funds as a result of the wills?

# 4536 A:

I have no ide

# 4537 PHILLIP BAKER:

All right. Why don't we break here and --

# 4538 (A discussion is held off the record.)

# 4539 JOHN KELLY:

Same stipulation?

# 4540 PHILLIP BAKER:

Yes, with the understanding the deposition is not concluded.

# 4541 (Whereupon the document referred to is marked by the reporter as Defense Exhibit 1022 for identification.)

# 4542 (The proceedings concluded at 3:55 p.m.)

Temperature

heated

Key Quotes (5)

Denise Brown

He killed her. He always said he would kill her. He finally did it.

First words Denise says to police on June 13, 1994, after taking the phone from her mother — later revealed to be based on what Nicole told her, not OJ directly, which becomes a credibility problem

Denise Brown

You are a murderer. You killed her. You always said you would.

What Denise told OJ when he called the Brown family home at approximately 7:15 AM on June 13, 1994

Denise Brown

He proceeded to walk up the stairs, throw pictures down the — down the staircase, went in and got Nicole's clothes and started throwing them down onto Nicole and down into the foyer. And then said, 'Get out of my house.' She said, 'This is my house, too. I am not leaving.' And he said, 'Yes, you are.' He threw her up against the door, picked her up, threw her up against the door, threw her out of the house. Picked me up — picked Ed up first, tossed him out of the house, and then threw me out of the house, too.

Core account of the La Cantina night violence — the only time Denise says she personally witnessed OJ be physically violent with Nicole

Denise Brown

I didn't understand why she would want to go out with a guy like that. Well, the first time I ever met O.J. Simpson, Nicole was in tears.

Establishes early knowledge of OJ's temperament, dating to their first meeting in Buffalo circa 1977-78, where Nicole was crying because OJ said she humiliated him

Phillip Baker

You can make any changes you like, but you can be assured we will comment on those changes to embarrass you and discredit you. Do you understand that?

Unusually aggressive deposition preamble — signals the defense's combative posture toward this witness from the outset

Evidence (1)

Defense 1022

Notice of Taking Deposition of Denise Brown (subpoena)

Introduced and shown to witness, who confirmed she had never seen it before the deposition

Notable Exchanges (4)

John Kelly•Robert Baker

Sustained sparring over Kelly's instruction not to answer questions about lectures: Robert Baker says 'We don't need your advice on how to ask questions.' Kelly fires back with 'Baker California law or regular California law?' Baker retorts: 'I bet the shortest book I ever read was John Quinlan Kelly on Evidence.'

heated with dark humor

Phillip Baker•Denise Brown

Baker establishes that Denise told the NY Times in summer 1994 she did not believe Nicole was a battered woman — after she had witnessed the La Cantina incident but before she publicly began speaking about it. Denise confirms she said it.

strategically revealing

Phillip Baker•Denise Brown

Baker presses Denise on whether OJ ever told her directly he would kill Nicole. After initially deflecting, she concedes he never said it directly to her — Nicole told her. Baker: 'So when you told the police he always said he would kill her, you had no independent knowledge that he said this; correct?'

devastating for witness

Phillip Baker•John Kelly

Baker asks about Jeff Noebel and his bank fraud conviction to suggest Denise was involved with a disreputable figure through the foundation. Kelly instructs her not to answer every question on this line.

strategic

Light Moments (2)

Robert Baker / John Kelly

John Kelly slips up and lets Baker's question about guilty plea go unanswered before catching it: Robert Baker quips, 'You let one through.' Kelly: 'He's very good at timing our discussions here.'

Robert Baker

Kelly complains about being called 'dumb lawyers from New York' and not understanding Baker's questions about lecture truthfulness: 'I'm just one of these dumb lawyers from New York. I don't understand these sophisticated —' Robert Baker interrupts: 'That's redundant.'

Credibility Attacks (5)

⚔ Denise Brown

prior inconsistent statement

Baker establishes Denise told the New York Times in summer 1994 that she did not believe Nicole was a battered woman — directly inconsistent with her testimony about the La Cantina violent incident, which she says she reported to police immediately after the murders

⚔ Denise Brown

financial bias

Baker attempts to establish that Denise earns income from lecturing about Nicole, the Nicole Brown Simpson Foundation, potential tabloid payments, television appearance fees, and a possible book deal — framing her testimony as financially motivated

⚔ Denise Brown

impeachment via prior convictions

Two DUI convictions (1992, guilty plea; 1994, guilty plea in Pomona) elicited to undermine her credibility as a witness; Baker also questions whether she was drunk the night of the La Cantina incident (she says she had approximately 4 drinks at dinner and possibly more at Rockingham)

⚔ Denise Brown

foundation of knowledge

Baker gets Denise to concede that OJ never told her personally he would kill Nicole — her certainty ('He always said he would kill her') was based entirely on what Nicole told her, not direct observation, undermining the dramatic weight of her statement to police

⚔ Denise Brown

association with convicted person

Baker asks whether Denise knew Jeff Noebel (foundation associate) had a criminal record for bank fraud, implying negligence or complicity in running the foundation with a fraudster — Kelly instructs her not to answer every related question

Witness Demeanor

(Shakes head in the negative.) — multiple times

(Nods head in the affirmative.)

(Indicating.) — when writing down her address

(Witness and counsel confer off the record.) — multiple times, notably before answering whether she heard OJ threaten Nicole

Witness asks for water mid-testimony

Transcript note: (Interruption in proceedings.) — twice

Objections

65 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

Denise Brown Deposition • Day 1 • 1 examination • 4,542 utterances

Civil Case Deposition

1996