Cora Fischman Deposition — Day 2

📄 Cora Fischman Deposition — Day 2

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Deposition of Cora Fischman

Day: 2 • Date: Wednesday, March 20, 1996 • Examinations: 4 • Utterances: 4,509

Examination Rounds:

1 Direct examination of Ms. Fischman by Daniel Petrocelli 2602 2 Cross-examination of Ms. Fischman by Robert Baker 688 3 Redirect examination of Ms. Fischman by Michael Brewer 811 4 Redirect examination of Ms. Fischman by John Kelly 408

1 Direct examination of Ms. Fischman by Daniel Petrocelli

Examiner: Daniel Petrocelli • Type: direct • 2602 utterances

🛡️ Robert Baker 👤 Philip Kramer 📜 Daniel Petrocelli 📜 John Kelly 📜 Michael Brewer

Petrocelli conducts a wide-ranging examination of Cora Fischman, Nicole Simpson's closest friend, covering Nicole's relationships after leaving OJ (Alessandro, Keith, Marcus Allen, and several others), the 1993 reconciliation and its ground rules, OJ's persistent jealousy and his conversations with Cora about Nicole. The session also reveals that Nicole called Cora's boyfriend [Name Deleted] at 2 a.m. on June 12 — the morning of her murder — telling him to stop seeing Cora, and that Nicole and [Name Deleted] then spoke for an hour the following morning just hours before her death.

# 1 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Daniel Petrocelli for Fredric Goldman.

# 2 MICHAEL BREWER:

Michael Brewer for Plaintiff Sharon Rufo.

# 3 ERIN KENNEY:

Natasha Roit for Plaintiff Brown.

# 4 JOHN KELLY:

John Kelly for Plaintiff Brown.

# 5 ROBERT BAKER:

Phil Baker for OJ. Simpson.

# 6 PHILIP KRAMER:

Philip Kramer for witness Cora Fischman.

# 7

CORA A. FISCHMAN, having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:

# 8

EXAMINATION

# 9

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 10 Q:

Morning, Miss Fischman.

# 11 A:

Good morning.

# 12 Q:

Have you done anything to prepare for today's session of the deposition?

# 13 A:

Not really. I just looked for the photos.

# 14 JOHN KELLY:

Can you speak up a little, Miss Fischman? I can't hear you.

# 15 CORA FISCHMAN:

Have I done anything?

# 16

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 17 Q:

Yes. Have you read anything, have you talked to anyone, have you done anything since you left here yesterday-

# 18 A:

No.

# 19 Q:

-other than to give a press conference to say that you were not sleeping with OJ. Simpson?

# 20 A:

That's pretty much, yes, what I did.

# 21 Q:

Okay. You haven't read anything at all?

# 22 A:

No.

# 23 Q:

Did you talk to anybody other than Mr. Kramer?

# 24 A:

I spoke to him, yeah, this morning.

# 25 Q:

Is that the only person?

# 26 A:

Yes.

# 27 Q:

Now, before yesterday's deposition session did you do anything at all to get ready for or prepare for the deposition?

# 28 A:

I spoke to Mr. Kramer.

# 29 Q:

Did you speak to anyone else?

# 30 A:

That's pretty much...That's pretty much who I spoke to.

# 31 Q:

"Pretty much"? What does that mean?

# 32 A:

Well, I spoke to my lawyer-not my lawyer-Mr. Williams in-did I speak-

# 33 Q:

John Taylor Williams?

# 34 A:

Yes. Yes. Oh, no, I didn't speak to him yesterday.

# 35 Q:

I don't mean conversations yesterday. I mean any conversation about the deposition, about getting ready for the deposition, to prepare for the deposition.

# 36 A:

No, I didn't speak. Only Mr. Kramer.

# 37 Q:

And did you review or read any materials-

# 38 A:

No.

# 39 Q:

-for that purpose? No?

# 40 A:

No.

# 41 Q:

Now, yesterday you had said to us that you paid no attention to the subpoena. Now, I asked you to go back and review all of your files, records and documents and anything else that you might have in response to the subpoena. Have you done so?

# 42 A:

Yes.

# 43 Q:

What did you search?

# 44 A:

I looked-I tried to look for the Brooke Skulski book notes, and I couldn't find that, so - and the picture that you told me, I couldn't- you know, see, the picture that you told me about OJ., I gave that to Shapiro and to Marcia Clark, so I couldn't find it.

# 45 Q:

Well, did you look through all of your possessions and belongings for anything relating to Simpson, Mr. Simpson.

# 46 A:

Yes.

# 47 Q:

-or Nicole?

# 48 A:

Yes.

# 49 Q:

You found nothing?

# 50 A:

# 51 Q:

No other photographs?

# 52 A:

No more.

# 53 Q:

You don't have a single other picture that you took in the many year of your relationship with Nicole?

# 54 A:

You're talking about pictures of Nicole and my kids? There are a lot of pictures of my kids with Sydney and Justin.

# 55 Q:

Yeah.

# 56 A:

But I don't have pictures, you know- Nicole and I, our picture together was just my birthday party. I mean, we didn't take a lot of pictures of ourselves, so...

# 57 Q:

Do you have pictures of Nicole and you at a birthday party?

# 58 A:

My birthday party, 1993.

# 59 Q:

1993.

# 60 A:

Right.

# 61 Q:

Do you have any pictures of Nicole other than that picture?

# 62 A:

No, that's it.

# 63 Q:

Do you have any pictures of OJ. Simpson other than what you produced yesterday?

# 64 A:

That's pretty much it.

# 65 PHILIP KRAMER:

Well, she also testified that she had a picture that she gave to Mr. Shapiro-

# 66 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 67 PHILIP KRAMER:

-and Miss Clark.

# 68

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 69 Q:

Other than the Shapiro picture and the one that you produced yesterday?

# 70 A:

That's pretty much the pictures that we have.

# 71 Q:

Do you have any videotapes?

# 72 A:

No, no video.

# 73 Q:

Does Ron Fischman have any, to your knowledge, photographs and/or videotapes of OJ. Simpson?

# 74 A:

We don't have video. We never took videotapes.

# 75 Q:

Does Mr. Simpson have photographs of- does Mr. Fischman have photographs of OJ. Simpson?

# 76 A:

I don't know.

# 77 Q:

Okay. What is [Name Deleted]'s last name?

# 78 PHILIP KRAMER:

Hold it. Wait a second. Is there-I-let me first explore whether there is some other way to do this rather than having this put in the transcript.

# 79 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Well, I intend to take [Name Deleted]'s deposition, and I need to know his name and I need to know where he lives so that I can subpoena him.

# 80 ROBERT BAKER:

Object to all this as irrelevant.

# 81 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

You can object, but, you know, I am still entitled to the information. It's a discovery process, and he may have relevant information concerning these murders, and I intend to ask him.

# 82 PHILIP KRAMER:

I understand your desire to know and that this may be reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence.

# 83 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yeah.

# 84 PHILIP KRAMER:

I've got to balance, and the court may have to balance, certain privacy interests-

# 85 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Excuse me [Name Deleted]'s last name and address are not, you k now, highly sensitive information. He is an ordinary person, like the rest of us, whose name and address may appear in hundreds of different materials and documents. I don't understand why this is so sensitive.

# 86 ROBERT BAKER:

Well, the sensitivity is the concern that this deposition will be disseminated again and the press is going to harass [Name Deleted]. When we took the deposition of Kim Goldman, you were sensitive about her friends, and we wrote down addresses and their names. I don't understand the difference.

# 87 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I don't believe that this is necessary at all. Will you let the witness answer the question?

# 88 PHILIP KRAMER:

Before I decide whether or not to instruct her one way or another, and I will make that determination, I wanted to see whether there was a different way to go about it that might accomplish-might satisfy my needs.

# 89 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

What do you have in mind, sir?

# 90 PHILIP KRAMER:

If there is some way that she can give you this information without it being part of the transcript, and if that is-and I'm not privy to whatever accommodations or measures you've taken in the past to ensure that security measure, that privacy measure, but I would like to see if we could explore that.

# 91 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay. Well, what we'll do, without waiving any right whatsoever known to mankind concerning this, is agree to let her write it on a piece of paper, name and address and telephone number.

# 92 PHILIP KRAMER:

All right. To the best of her knowledge.

# 93 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

It will become an exhibit. It will be the next exhibit in order, but it will say omitted in the transcript, and I Will keep possession of it. Okay?

# 94 PHILIP KRAMER:

That's acceptable. Fine. Okay.

# 95 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Thank you. It's Exhibit 160.

# 96 JOHN KELLY:

Dan, is this from the beginning of time also?

# 97

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 98 Q:

Do you have a phone number, please?

# 99 PHILIP KRAMER:

Want to write down the phone number?

# 100 CORA FISCHMAN:

Okay.

# 101

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 102 Q:

Home and work.

# 103 A:

I don't know his work number at all.

# 104 Q:

Okay. MR. BREWER: Did you get the employer and employer's address also?

# 105

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 106 Q:

Yeah, why don't you write that down also, the employer's name and address and telephone number.

# 107 A:

The employer's?

# 108 Q:

Yeah, [Name Deleted]'s employer.

# 109 A:

I don't know the employer, but he works for UCLA.

# 110 PHILIP KRAMER:

Okay. All right. That's fine.

# 111

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 112 Q:

What department? Do you know?

# 113 A:

No.

# 114 Q:

What is-We are on the record. What does [Name Deleted] do for a living?

# 115 A:

He's a technologist.

# 116 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Mr. Reporter, you will put an omitted from the transcript on No. 160.

# 117 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 160 was marked for identification by the reporter and was retained by Mr. Petrocelli.)

# 118

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 119 Q:

Okay. When you were with-withdrawn. Are you still seeing [Name Deleted]?

# 120 A:

As a friend, yeah.

# 121 Q:

When did your romantic relationship with [Name Deleted] end?

# 122 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 123 CORA FISCHMAN:

Do I have to answer that?

# 124 (Nods head.)

# 125 CORA FISCHMAN:

I would say last year.

# 126

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 127 Q:

1995?

# 128 A:

'95

# 129 Q:

Okay. Now, when you were at the home of [Name Deleted] on the evening of June 11-

# 130 A:

Yes.

# 131 Q:

- you indicated you spent the night there.

# 132 A:

Yes.

# 133 Q:

Okay. Did [Name Deleted] receive a phone call from Nicole?

# 134 A:

Yes.

# 135 Q:

You didn't mention that to us yesterday, did you?

# 136 A:

No. You didn't ask me.

# 137 Q:

Okay. Fair enough. I did ask you if you heard from Nicole, and you said no, but [Name Deleted]-

# 138 A:

I didn't talk to Nicole. I thought you meant yesterday if I talked to Nicole.

# 139 Q:

But [Name Deleted] talked to Nicole. Right?

# 140 A:

Yes.

# 141 Q:

And [Name Deleted] got a phone call from Nicole while you were laying in bed right next to him. Right?

# 142 A:

I was not in bed. I was in the living room. We were talking.

# 143 Q:

And then while you were talking in the living room, the phone rings, it's 2:00 o'clock in the morning, and it's Nicole. Right?

# 144 A:

Yeah. He went to his room and he picked up the phone.

# 145 Q:

And he was on the phone with Nicole for a bit.

# 146 A:

Yes.

# 147 Q:

Andy on over heard him talking to Nicole. Right?

# 148 A:

Right.

# 149 Q:

And then he got off the phone, and then you and [Name Deleted] discussed Nicole's call. Right?

# 150 A:

Yes.

# 151 Q:

And tell us as best as you can recall everything that [Name Deleted] told you about that phone call with Nicole on June 12, wee hours of the morning.

# 152 A:

She apparently wanted to know if I was there, and I told [Name Deleted], "Tell her I'm not here, because I don't want to go home." And so Nicole apparently said, "Tell her to go home because her kids are looking for her and Ron is angry. Ron's been calling." So that's pretty much the conversation.

KEY QUOTE

# 153 Q:

And knowing that Nicole was looking for you and knowing that you had instructed [Name Deleted] to lie on your behalf to Nicole-

# 154 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 155

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 156 Q:

-did you not feel any need to talk to Nicole the next morning to explain your whereabouts and to maybe quell any anxieties on her part as to where you were?

# 157 A:

You know what? We were so busy with the recital, I figured we'd talk when we go for our run that Monday, because usually Monday we do our run, and I figured that would be the best time for us to talk.

# 158 Q:

So the answer is no -

# 159 A:

No.

# 160 Q:

-you didn't feel the need to say anything to her on Sunday-

# 161 A:

No, I thought-

# 162 Q:

-correct?

# 163 A:

Yes, correct.

# 164 Q:

Thank you.

# 165 ROBERT BAKER:

You guys are talking on top of each other again.

# 166

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 167 Q:

Please try to answer the question.

# 168 A:

Okay.

# 169 Q:

Thank you.

# 170 PHILIP KRAMER:

And wait till he finishes his question, and then think about your response and make your response.

# 171 CORA FISCHMAN:

Okay.

# 172 ROBERT BAKER:

And let her answer.

# 173

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 174 Q:

Is that the only time that [Name Deleted] to your knowledge ever spoke to Nicole?

# 175 A:

To my knowledge?

# 176 (Nods head.)

# 177 A:

They spoke the following morning.

# 178 Q:

They did.

# 179 A:

Yes.

# 180 Q:

How do you know?

# 181 A:

Because [Name Deleted] told me that they spoke for an hour, Nicole and-Nicole called [Name Deleted] the following morning.

# 182 Q:

What time?

# 183 A:

I don't know.

# 184 Q:

Were you there?

# 185 A:

No, I wasn't there.

# 186 Q:

And when did you find out about [Name Deleted]'s phone call with Nicole?

# 187 A:

I spoke to him that day. He called me.

# 188 Q:

Before the recital?

# 189 A:

Yes.

# 190 Q:

Where were you when you spoke to [Name Deleted]?

# 191 A:

I don't know. Maybe at home on Rockingham. I don't know.

# 192 Q:

You were at Rockingham.'

# 193 A:

Probably.

# 194 Q:

And how long was your phone call with [Name Deleted]?

# 195 A:

I don't remember.

# 196 Q:

And tell me what was said.

# 197 A:

What was said?

# 198 Q:

Yes.

# 199 A:

Pretty much what they talked about the night before: That-that I should-that [Name Deleted] should leave me alone for a while, that Cora's marriage-let Cora take care of what she has to take care of, and pretty much she asked questions on how often I go to his house, and mainly they talked about the kids, and that's it.

# 200 Q:

Was the evening before or the wee hours of Sunday morning on June 12 the first time that [Name Deleted] and Nicole ever spoke?

# 201 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 202

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 203 Q:

To your knowledge.

# 204 A:

To my knowledge?

# 205 Q:

Yeah.

# 206 A:

Yes.

# 207 Q:

Have they ever met before?

# 208 A:

Oh, they have met before, yes.

# 209 Q:

They had met.

# 210 A:

Oh, you mean before-what do you mean, "before"? I mean, they've known each other for years.

# 211 Q:

Oh, [Name Deleted] and Nicole?

# 212 A:

Yes.

# 213 Q:

I see. Was [Name Deleted]'s conversation with Nicole on the afternoon of June-on the morning of June 12 the last time they spoke?

# 214 A:

Yes. As far as I know.

# 215 Q:

Okay.

# 216 PHILIP KRAMER:

You said, "As far as I know?"

# 217 CORA FISCHMAN:

As far as I know.

# 218

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 219 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether [Name Deleted] has ever been interviewed by the police department?

# 220 A:

No.

# 221 Q:

By the D A?

# 222 A:

No.

# 223 Q:

Or by Mr. Simpson's lawyers-

# 224 A:

No.

# 225 Q:

-in the criminal or civil case?

# 226 A:

No.

# 227 Q:

Do you if he has or hasn't, or do you not know one way or the other?

# 228 A:

He hasn't been interviewed.

# 229 Q:

Have you ever supplied his name to anyone before?

# 230 A:

No.

# 231 Q:

So when you went to the recital, you knew of [Name Deleted]'s one-hour phone call with Nicole and what was discussed in that call.

# 232 A:

Yes.

# 233 Q:

And Nicole was making-was expressing her views to [Name Deleted] that he should stop seeing you for a while. Correct?

# 234 A:

Yes. Because Nicole felt guilty about- that's why she called [Name Deleted].

# 235 Q:

Why did Nicole feel guilty?

# 236 A:

Because she felt guilty because she's the one who kinda instigated me being-having a relationship with [Name Deleted].

# 237 Q:

You mean Nicole felt it was her fault-

# 238 A:

Yes.

# 239 Q:

-that you were abandoning your family and-

# 240 A:

No.

# 241 Q:

-children and carrying on with [Name Deleted]?

# 242 A:

No, that's not why. She felt guilty, because she said to [Name Deleted], "I feel guilty. I feel I'm the one who pushed Cora into having a relationship with you."

# 243 Q:

Did Nicole ever express that view to you?

# 244 A:

Yes.

# 245 Q:

Was that true?

# 246 A:

In a way, yes.

# 247 Q:

How did Nicole instigate you to have a relationship with [Name Deleted]?

# 248 A:

This is very-this has nothing to do with Mr. Simpson's-

# 249 Q:

In my view it's highly relevant, and I would ask that you answer the questions.

# 250 ROBERT BAKER:

It's totally irrelevant. BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 251 Q:

I know Mr. Simpson and his lawyers would like you to withhold from us this information-

# 252 A:

I-

# 253 ROBERT BAKER:

Let me just put my objection on the record. BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 254 Q:

-but I am going to press you to answer the question-

# 255 ROBERT BAKER:

That is-

# 256

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 257 Q:

-and if you decline to answer the question, I will go to the judge.

# 258 ROBERT BAKER:

That is beautiful, but the point is you are invading this woman's privacy rights in an attempt to harass her. She has constitutional privacy rights which you are treading over in your diatribe to bring out as much rumor and gossip as you possibly can.

# 259 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

You are getting very good, Mr. Baker.

# 260 ROBERT BAKER:

Thank you.

# 261

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 262 Q:

You may answer the question.

# 263 PHILIP KRAMER:

Do you want to talk to me for a moment?

# 264 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 265 PHILIP KRAMER:

We are going to want to take a break.

# 266 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I will be delving into this area in detail. It directly involves Nicole, and it's highly relevant to understanding this witness' relationship with Nicole and her bias. Thank you.

# 267 CORA FISCHMAN:

Bias?

# 268 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

THEVIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:09.

# 269 (Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)

# 270

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 271 Q:

The question I believe I asked before your break was: How did Nicole instigate you to have a relationship with [Name Deleted]?

# 272 A:

She told me to loosen up. She says, you know, "Cora, you have such a bad marriage. Why don't you just relax, and probably this will help your marriage in the long run."

KEY QUOTE

# 273 Q:

What was the time frame?

# 274 A:

That was around February of '95 -no-94-

# 275 Q:

'94?

# 276 A:

Yes.

# 277 Q:

And you said that Nicole had known [Name Deleted] before you met [Name Deleted]?

# 278 A:

Well, in the neighborhood, because [Name Deleted] used to play basketball at the park, and they've seen-not-they don't know, but [Name Deleted] knew her as being OJ.'s wife. Not personally. They didn't know each other personally.

# 279 Q:

Did they ever go out together Nicole and [Name Deleted]?

# 280 A:

Did they ever go out?

# 281 Q:

Yes.

# 282 A:

The three-not together, no.

# 283 Q:

The two alone, to your knowledge?

# 284 A:

To my knowledge?

# 285 Q:

Yes.

# 286 A:

They didn't go out. They didn't go out.

# 287 Q:

Are you unsure? You seem like you're hesitating a bit.

# 288 A:

Well, I don't know. I can say I don't know. But as far as I know, they never went out, the two of them.

# 289 Q:

Did they have any relationship between them before you met and started to go OUt with [Name Deleted]?

# 290 A:

No, they didn't have a relationship.

# 291 Q:

How old is [Name Deleted]?

# 292 A:

He's 32 years old.

# 293 Q:

Okay. What is your age?

# 294 A:

I'm 41.

# 295 Q:

The-when did you start to go out with [Name Deleted]?

# 296 A:

When did I start?

# 297 (Nods head.)

# 298 A:

In February of '94.

# 299 Q:

And when did to your knowledge your husband find out about your affair with [Name Deleted]?

# 300 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 301 CORA FISCHMAN:

When?

# 302

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 303 Q:

Yes.

# 304 A:

Around that time, in June.

# 305 Q:

Before the recital. Correct?

# 306 A:

Before the recital? Yes, yes, before the recital.

# 307 Q:

And do you know how your husband found out?

# 308 A:

The two of them talked to each other. [Name Deleted] and Ron talked to each other.

# 309 Q:

Do you know how that conversation came about?

# 310 A:

Do I know?

# 311 (Nods head.)

# 312 A:

Ron found out where [Name Deleted] was working, and that's pretty much how they did.

# 313 Q:

Where was [Name Deleted] working?

# 314 A:

He used to work at the store.

# 315 Q:

What store?

# 316 A:

Vicente Foods.

# 317 Q:

San Vicente Foods?

# 318 A:

Uh-huh.

# 319 Q:

And what did he do there?

# 320 A:

He's a-he works at the store. I don't know. I guess Faye said grocery clerk.

# 321 Q:

Grocery clerk. Do you know whether OJ. Simpson told Ron about your affair with [Name Deleted]?

# 322 A:

If OJ. Simpson?

# 323 Q:

Yes.

# 324 A:

I don't know.

# 325 Q:

Do you know whether Ron and Mr. Simpson ever talked about the affair that you were having and Ron's problems?

# 326 A:

I don't know.

# 327 Q:

You have no-

# 328 A:

I don't know.

# 329 Q:

-knowledge about that?

# 330 A:

Yeah, I don't know.

# 331 Q:

Have you and Mr. Simpson ever talked about his conversations with Ron concerning your marriage?

# 332 A:

No.

# 333 Q:

Never?

# 334 A:

We talked about why our marriage was falling apart, but that's-

# 335 Q:

You and Mr. Simpson did?

# 336 A:

Yeah.

# 337 Q:

When did you talk about that?

# 338 A:

When he was in jail. He said, you know, "I wish you two could work your problems out."

# 339 Q:

Before June 12 did you ever talk with Mr. Simpson about your marital problems?

# 340 A:

No.

# 341 Q:

Or your affair with [Name Deleted]?

# 342 A:

No.

# 343 Q:

Okay. And you don't know whether Ron did?

# 344 A:

I don't know.

# 345 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether Ron was at Mr. Simpson's home on June 12 on June 11?

# 346 A:

I know?

# 347 Q:

Yes.

# 348 A:

I don't know.

# 349 Q:

Did you ever discuss that with Ron?

# 350 A:

No.

# 351 Q:

Okay. Now, did you and [Name Deleted] and Nicole ever go out together?

# 352 A:

Yes.

# 353 Q:

On how many occasions?

# 354 A:

Must be like two or three occasion.

# 355 Q:

Was there anyone else in the group besides the three of you on those occasions?

# 356 A:

No. It was just the three of us.

# 357 Q:

And have you ever been out with Nicole, [Name Deleted], you and someone else?

# 358 A:

There was one time when the- Nicole, [Name Deleted] and I went out, and then [Name Deleted] was at the place, too, and so the four of us, yeah.

# 359 Q:

Okay. Where was that?

# 360 A:

Renaissance.

# 361 Q:

Is that a nightclub?

# 362 A:

That's a club, yes.

# 363 Q:

And when was that?

# 364 A:

When?

# 365 Q:

Yes.

# 366 A:

It's got to be around February of '94.

# 367 Q:

Do you know whether OJ. Simpson at this time knew about your affair with [Name Deleted]?

# 368 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 369 CORA FISCHMAN:

In February?

# 370

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 371 Q:

Yes.

# 372 A:

I didn't have-

# 373 Q:

Well, whenever it began, do you know whether Mr. Simpson knew about it?

# 374 A:

No, I don't think he -

# 375 Q:

Did you tell Nicole not to tell him,

# 376 A:

We didn't talk about it. I mean, it was like-we didn't talk about it.

# 377 Q:

Okay. Did you understand that Nicole would not tell him about the affair?

# 378 A:

Did I understand?

# 379 (Nods head.)

# 380 A:

Yes.

# 381 Q:

Okay. Where else did you and [Name Deleted] and Nicole go out together besides the Renaissance?

# 382 A:

I think that's pretty much it.

# 383 Q:

Prior to Nicole's going to Cabo, she had expressed to you doubts about whether her relationship with OJ. Simpson was going to work out. Correct?

# 384 A:

Before Cabo?

# 385 Q:

Yes.

# 386 A:

She always had doubts about her relationship with OJ.

# 387 Q:

Well, there was a time the prior year, in April of 1993, when she was very confident and optimistic that things would work out again and that she-

# 388 A:

Yes.

# 389 Q:

-went back with Mr. Simpson. Right?

# 390 A:

Yes.

# 391 Q:

And you encouraged her to do that.

# 392 A:

Yes.

# 393 Q:

For the sake of putting her family back together. Right?

# 394 A:

Yes, because that's what she wanted.

# 395 Q:

And Nicole had been going to some therapy sessions and had experienced some self-growth and felt that there was a better chance of her relationship working. True?

# 396 A:

True.

# 397 Q:

By the way, do you know who the therapist was?

# 398 A:

No. You know what? It was-it was a group therapy thing.

# 399 Q:

Did you participate at all?

# 400 A:

No.

# 401 Q:

A guy named [Name Deleted]?

# 402 A:

Yes.

# 403 Q:

[Name Deleted] also attended?

# 404 A:

[Name Deleted] actually was the one who recommended this one.

# 405 Q:

Faye Resnick also attended some sessions?

# 406 A:

Well, she asked me to go, but there was no way I could do it, and so she asked Faye, and so they went a couple times to this session group.

# 407 Q:

Well, let's focus a little bit then on that time frame. You had many discussions with Nicole about her decision to go back to Mr. Simpson in April '93 and before. Correct?

# 408 A:

Right.

# 409 Q:

And what did she say to you in the final analysis as to why she was going to go back with him?

# 410 A:

Because she still loved OJ. At the time she was afraid that OJ. will be completely out of her life. She-and I told her, I said, "You make sure that if this is what you want this is what you want," because at the time OJ. was going out with Paula already, and she wanted her family back.

# 411 Q:

Did she tell you-

# 412 A:

She didn't think all these guys were-matched up with OJ.

# 413 Q:

In other words, she had had an opportunity to date other men-

# 414 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 415 Q:

-for the first time in her adult life?

# 416 A:

I would say yes, yeah.

# 417 Q:

She had become involved with Mr. Simpson at a very young age. Right?

# 418 A:

Yes.

# 419 Q:

And after a year or so of dating other men, she decided that OJ. was the best person for her?

# 420 A:

Yes.

# 421 Q:

And she told you all these things and you talked about them?

# 422 A:

Yes.

# 423 Q:

Okay. Did you and she discuss the problems that they had in the marriage and whether they would resurface if she got back together with

OJ. Simpson?

# 424 A:

Yes.

# 425 Q:

And relate to me what Nicole said to you about that.

# 426 A:

The problem?

# 427 (Nods head.)

# 428 A:

One was if only OJ. could be around the kids. He travels too much. He-he traveled, he works too much. If only they could have a simple life as opposed to all this, you know-

# 429 Q:

Hollywood lifestyle?

# 430 A:

Yes.

# 431 Q:

Nicole didn't like that?

# 432 A:

She was not into that. She wanted -she just wanted to raise her kids.

# 433 Q:

What about the womanizing issue, did she discuss that with you?

# 434 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 435 CORA FISCHMAN:

Well, when they went back-when they got back together, they both kinda talked to each other, saying that that will be over. Whatever happened the last seven years of their marriage, they're gonna work on that. That's why she was gonna clean up her act, and OJ., whatever he was doing, it was just going to be the two of them. They were going to make a commitment and it's just going to be the two of them. No more of these other men or other women.

# 436

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 437 Q:

So Nicole told you that she had reason to believe that OJ.'s womanizing would not be a problem anymore?

# 438 A:

That's pretty much what-yeah.

# 439 Q:

What about OJ.'s violent temper? Did Nicole discuss with you whether that would be a problem -

# 440 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 441

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 442 Q:

-if she got back together?

# 443 A:

Well, you know what? We didn't talk about that. We talked about how husbands get angry, you know, and we talked about how we said sometimes we'd push each other's button, because knowing-you know, that's pretty much our conversation.

# 444 Q:

But did Nicole discuss with you her concerns about whether she would run into problems with physical abuse or violence if she got back with OJ. Simpson?

# 445 A:

She never-she never talked to me about that.

# 446 Q:

Not once?

# 447 A:

Not once.

# 448 Q:

But you knew her way as far back as May of 1989, correct?

# 449 A:

Yes.

# 450 Q:

-Nicole? And you knew that she was unhappy in her marriage-

# 451 A:

Not '89. I knew her then, yeah, but the time that I really knew her was when she got separated from OJ. So it was in the later part of '91.

# 452 Q:

And Nicole told you that one of the things that caused her to end her relationship or her marriage with OJ. Simpson was the beating she received in 1989. Correct?

# 453 A:

No, she didn't tell me that.

# 454 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 455

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 456 Q:

She told you that from that point on, she wanted out of the relationship. Correct?

# 457 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 458 CORA FISCHMAN:

No. She was just tired of everything already, the womanizing, the-pretty much everything. That's what she said. And also she already was having an affair with [Name Deleted]. She found this guy, and they had been going out.

# 459

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 460 Q:

She was having that affair while she was still married and living at Rockingham. Correct?

# 461 A:

Yes, Yes.

# 462 Q:

Before she moved out of Rockingham, had Nicole told you about the New Year's Eve beating in 1989?

# 463 A:

No.

# 464 Q:

You only learned about it after she moved out?

# 465 A:

Yes. Yes, she told me.

# 466 Q:

After she moved out?

# 467 A:

After she moved out, yeah.

# 468 Q:

Okay. So when she decided to end her marriage and move out, she discussed that with you. Right?

# 469 A:

When she-yes.

# 470 Q:

And she discussed the fact that she was having an affair with Alessandro, with you. Right?

# 471 A:

Yes.

# 472 Q:

When did that affair begin to your knowledge?

# 473 A:

To my knowledge? I don't know. When I-when we got really close, she already said it's been going on and she's thinking of moving in with this guy, so I'm not sure as to the time frame. It could be six months.

# 474 Q:

Six months before she actually moved out?

# 475 A:

Yeah.

# 476 Q:

Okay. And during that six-month period you and she would have- started to have many conversations together. Right?

# 477 A:

Uh-huh.

# 478 Q:

And that's when you started to develop a close bond with her. Right?

# 479 A:

Uh-huh.

# 480 Q:

You have to answer audibly.

# 481 A:

Yes, yes.

# 482 Q:

In those conversations did she tell you about the physical abuse in her marriage?

# 483 A:

No.

# 484 Q:

But she told you about womanizing, right, by OJ. Simpson?

# 485 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 486 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 487

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 488 Q:

And his not being around home and around the kids, issues like that. Correct?

# 489 A:

Right, because of his traveling. And she always wished that his work could be here in California so they could be together. That's the intention.

# 490 Q:

Now, did she tell you that she was afraid of talking to OJ. Simpson and telling him about her decision to leave the marriage?

# 491 PHILIP KRAMER:

At what time?

# 492 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Before she made the decision-before she told him.

# 493 Q:

Did she discuss with you the anticipation of telling Mr. Simpson and what that was going to be like?

# 494 A:

The anticipation? You know, I don't remember, because all I know is I told her, you know, "You can't go on with your affair if you're gonna live there. You have to move out and try to"-that's pretty much-I don't know the-I mean, because when we started talking, she already-when OJ. got back from New York, she spoke to OJ., and they-you know, she said, "I wanted out."

# 495 Q:

Did she relate to you what OJ.'s reaction was?

# 496 A:

No.

# 497 Q:

Okay. Did you understand that OJ. was opposed to the marriage ending?

# 498 A:

Of course, yeah.

# 499 Q:

And Nicole told you that?

# 500 A:

Uh-huh. Yes.

# 501 Q:

And OJ. told you that also?

# 502 A:

Yes.

# 503 Q:

Did you discuss Nicole's affair with OJ. before Nicole left the house?

# 504 A:

No.

# 505 Q:

And what about afterwards?

# 506 A:

Afterwards?

# 507 Q:

Yes.

# 508 A:

No.

# 509 Q:

Didn't OJ. ask you about the affair?

# 510 A:

Yes, but I denied it.

# 511 Q:

When did he ask you?

# 512 A:

Even during the time - the whole time that they were trying to reconcile-I mean, they tried to reconcile, and even the time when he was trying to understand why she wanted to get out of the marriage.

# 513 Q:

Throughout that time period he would ask you-

# 514 A:

Yeah.

# 515 Q:

-whether Nicole had an affair?

# 516 A:

Why did she want to move out, what was the reason, and, you know, he said, "Is she having an affair?" I said no.

# 517 Q:

Didn't he make some comment to you about Alessandro to the effect that he's drinking his champagne and eating his caviar?

# 518 A:

Yes. See, he suspected that-he suspected that she was having an affair with [Name Deleted], and he asked me, he says, "Are they having an affair?"

I said, "No. They're just friends." And he says, "Well, someone's eating the caviar and champagne every time I leave." So he made that comment, yes.

# 519 Q:

I see. But you didn't tell him about the affair.

# 520 A:

I denied the affair. I said they were just friends.

# 521 Q:

Now, how often in the beginning

# 522 A:

Because Nicole made-because Nicole told me, "Don't ever, whatever happens, don't ever tell OJ. that I had an affair before I left Rockingham," and I-I made a promise to her.

# 523 Q:

After Nicole moved out of the house, she continued to see Alessandro?

# 524 A:

I'm sorry. What?

# 525 Q:

After Nicole moved out of Rockingham, did she continue to see Allessandro?

# 526 A:

Yes.

# 527 Q:

And how long did that relationship last?

# 528 A:

Oh, God. Well, it kinda fell apart when-started to fell-fall apart when Nicole moved out of Rockingham pretty much.

# 529 Q:

And do you know the reason?

# 530 A:

Well, as Nicole said, "It kinda fade away," you know.

# 531 Q:

Did she tell you that Alessandro was concerned about Mr. Simpson being jealous and vindictive?

# 532 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 533 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yeah, and also Nicole kinda wanted-yes.

# 534

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 535 Q:

Okay. Who was Nicole's next relationship after Alessandro?

# 536 A:

Relationship?

# 537 PHILIP KRAMER:

Are you talking about

# 538 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Men she dated.

# 539 CORA FISCHMAN:

Men she dated?

# 540 PHILIP KRAMER:

A relationship in terms of substance or-I'm not sure

# 541 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Man-woman relationship, dating, whatever-however you want to characterize it.

# 542 CORA FISCHMAN:

Okay. Well, in passing was Keith, because Keith moved in.

# 543

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 544 Q:

Keith moved in the Gretna Green?

# 545 A:

Well, not moved in. As a guest, as a house guest, because at the time he was fix--he was trying to open up Mezzaluna in Brentwood, and he needed, you know, he needed a place and Nicole offered her guest house.

# 546 Q:

And while-Nicole dated Keith for a while. Right?

# 547 A:

They didn't date, but Keith was very attracted to Nicole, and Nicole being lonely, they had a-they had sex.

# 548 Q:

More than once?

# 549 A:

That I don't know, but I got mad at her about that.

# 550 Q:

Why?

# 551 A:

Because-because I told her that she was vulnerable and that she shouldn't do it just for sex, you know, at that time.

# 552 Q:

Nicole told you, you told us yesterday, how OJ. confronted Keith and her the next day after he observed them having sex together. Do you recall that?

# 553 A:

If-yes. Yes.

# 554 Q:

And did she tell you that Mr. Simpson was yelling and screaming when he confronted Nicole and OJ.-and Keith?

# 555 A:

You know, because the following day when we went out for our run, Nicole said, "Oh, OJ. saw us."

I said, "What do you mean?" She says, "OJ. saw us, and he heard everything."

I said, "Oh, really" And that's pretty much the conversation. I said, "Was he mad?" I said.

"Yeah." And then so I said, "Was he mad" And she said, "Yes."

# 556 Q:

So this was after OJ. had confronted Keith and Nicole the following morning that you had this conversation-

# 557 A:

Yes.

# 558 Q:

-with Nicole?

# 559 A:

Yes, the following morning, that

# 560 Q:

Now, you told Barbara Walters the following: "She," referring to Nicole, "told me the following day that OJ." -Withdrawn.

# 561 Q:

Did Nicole tell you that OJ. screamed and yelled when he confronted Keith and Nicole the next day?

# 562 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 563 CORA FISCHMAN:

Screamed and yelled?

# 564

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 565 Q:

Yeah, at them for what they were doing.

# 566 A:

Nicole said to me, "OJ. was mad. "

# 567 Q:

Did she tell you why OJ. was mad?

# 568 A:

Because OJ. saw them doing the act.

# 569 Q:

Did she tell you why OJ. was there watching the two of them do the act?

# 570 A:

No.

# 571 Q:

Did you ask OJ. why she-he was outside looking at them?

# 572 A:

I don't remember.

# 573 Q:

Have you ever asked OJ. Simpson about this?

# 574 A:

I don't think so.

# 575 Q:

Okay. After Keith, who did Nicole date?

# 576 A:

Refresh my memory, yeah. Okay. After Keith was [Name Deleted]. She was attracted to this guy, and so she asked Kris Jenner, she says, "I want to meet this guy," so that's how this whole thing was set up.

While Keith was still a house guest at Gretna Green, Nicole went to Cabo with Kris and [Name Deleted] and Faye, and Kris invited Nicole. She said, "[Name Deleted]'s gonna be there," and that's where they all went.

# 577 Q:

What was [Name Deleted]'s occupation?

# 578 A:

He was a shoe salesman for Neiman-Marcus at the time.

# 579 Q:

What was Alessandro's occupation, by the way?

# 580 A:

He used to be the maitre d' of Toscana, and then he-at the same, a hairdresser.

# 581 Q:

Okay. How long did Nicole date Keith-

# 582 A:

Keith?

# 583 ROBERT BAKER:

[Name Deleted].

# 584

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 585 Q:

-[Name Deleted]?

# 586 A:

I would say not that long, because [Name Deleted]-

# 587 PHILIP KRAMER:

You've answered the question. If he wants to know why, then that's fine.

# 588 CORA FISCHMAN:

Oh, okay.

# 589 PHILIP KRAMER:

But just answer the question. It will speed things up.

# 590

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 591 Q:

And what was the reason?

# 592 A:

What?

# 593 Q:

You were just about to explain why.

# 594 A:

It just didn't work out.

# 595 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Simpson ever confronted [Name Deleted] during that relationship?

# 596 A:

Confronted?

# 597 Q:

Yes.

# 598 A:

If I know, no.

# 599 Q:

And did Nicole ever tell you such a thing?

# 600 A:

# 601 Q:

Okay. This is all in the year 1992. Correct?

# 602 A:

Yes.

# 603 Q:

Now, what was Nicole's next relationship after [Name Deleted]?

# 604 A:

[Name Deleted]? Well, she was getting a divorce, so she met [Name Deleted].

# 605 Q:

Okay. And how long did that relationship last?

# 606 A:

About four months. Yeah, four to six months, something like that.

# 607 Q:

And do you know whether Mr. Simpson ever confronted [Name Deleted]?

# 608 A:

If Mr. Simpson confronted?

# 609 (Nods head.)

# 610 A:

I don't think he confronted [Name Deleted].

# 611 Q:

Okay. Did Mr. Simpson know that Nicole was dating [Name Deleted] when she was dating him?

# 612 A:

If I knew-

# 613 Q:

Whether he was aware of that relationship when it was going on.

# 614 A:

Of [Name Deleted]?

# 615 Q:

Yes.

# 616 A:

Yes.

# 617 Q:

And how do you know that?

# 618 A:

If Mr. Simpson knew about-

# 619 (Nods head.)

# 620 A:

Because Nicole told OJ. on Mother's Day-I remember that Mother's Day, and she actually told OJ., "I'm in love, and I want to be with this person"-

# 621 Q:

And-

# 622 A:

-"So don't mess it up, " or something like that. She says, "Don't mess it up. I love this man."

# 623 Q:

This is May of 1992?

# 624 A:

Yes.

# 625 Q:

And as of this point in time OJ. Simpson had not yet to your knowledge had a relationship with Paula Barbieri. Correct?

# 626 A:

At that time they were going out. I knew that they were going-that OJ. was going out with Paula. They were dating.

# 627 Q:

And to your knowledge OJ. Simpson at this point in time was still interested in getting Nicole back, as of the time Nicole sat down with him on Mother's Day?

# 628 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 629 CORA FISCHMAN:

At that time?

# 630

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 631 (Nods head.)

# 632 A:

See, at the time they were working on their divorce already, you know, and so that's pretty much what their conversations-

# 633 Q:

But you understood form your conversations with Nicole that Mr. Simpson was still interested in putting the marriage back together for a period of time. Correct?

# 634 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 635 Q:

And that period of time to your knowledge lasted the spring of 1992. Correct?

# 636 A:

Spring of 1992, which is March April? Yes.

# 637 Q:

And Mr. Simpson called you and would talk to you from time to time about Nicole. Correct?

# 638 A:

Yes.

# 639 Q:

And asked what she's up to?

# 640 A:

Uh-huh.

# 641 Q:

Correct?

# 642 A:

Yes, correct.

# 643 Q:

And he would express to you his desire to want to work things out with Nicole. Correct?

# 644 A:

Correct.

# 645 Q:

Even though they were in the middle of divorce proceedings. Correct?

# 646 A:

Yes.

# 647 Q:

And what would you say to him and what would he say to you in these conversations?

# 648 A:

Well, he's trying to understand Nicole. He was trying to understand Nicole and what was- what does she really want, and I told-you know, I told him, "Just leave her alone. She needs some time to be alone. She needs to reassess her life," and pretty much, you know, said that, "She loves you. She loves you. She still wants the kids," words like that.

# 649 Q:

And what would he say to you?

# 650 A:

Well, he says you know "I love that woman." You know, "We had such a great marriage. What happened?"

# 651 Q:

Did you ask him about the incident when he beat her, in these conversations?

# 652 A:

Did I ask who?

# 653 Q:

Mr. Simpson.

# 654 A:

No, I never asked Mr. Simpson.

# 655 Q:

Did you mention to him the incident involving Keith Zlomsowitzh after it occurred and after Nicole told you about it?

# 656 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 657 CORA FISCHMAN:

Keith? Yeah, I asked. I asked him about that, and he said he saw them, and he said that-he says, you know, "I don't like what Nicole does because the kids are there." He says, "If she wants to do something like that, she should do it someplace, but not with the kids around."

# 658

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 659 Q:

Did you question Mr. Simpson as to why he was looking in the window?

# 660 A:

No.

# 661 Q:

You didn't?

# 662 A:

Well, he just told me, but that's about-I didn't even know he was at the window. He told me that he saw, so I don't know-you know, to me probably you're right.

# 663 Q:

Did he describe what he saw?

# 664 A:

No.

# 665 Q:

Okay. You had already heard about this from Nicole. Right?

# 666 A:

Yes.

# 667 Q:

Okay. Did there come a time in 1992 when to your knowledge Mr. Simpson stopped pursuing Nicole in trying to get the marriage back together?

# 668 A:

You know, after when they got divorced,

# 669 Q:

That was October of '92.

# 670 A:

Yes.

# 671 Q:

So all the way through October of '92, your understanding was that Mr. Simpson was still interested in putting things back together with Nicole?

# 672 A:

I mean, they were still talking, yes, about that, yes.

# 673 Q:

And you know this based on your conversations with Mr. Simpson and Nicole?

# 674 A:

About what?

# 675 Q:

That he was skill interested in putting the relationship back together.

# 676 A:

Yes, they were both interested in trying to work things out. See, Nicole didn't want a divorce. She just wanted a separation. OJ. wanted a divorce, and so-

# 677 Q:

Why did OJ. want a divorce on the one hand and on the other hand put his marriage back together?

# 678 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 679 CORA FISCHMAN:

Well, because, see, to him, if she wants to continue having men in her life, OJ. said, "Well, if that's what she wants, that's what she wants, and we get divorced." But, see, Nicole just wanted a separation because she just wanted to know what was going on in her life.

# 680

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 681 Q:

So OJ. told you that if Nicole wanted to date men, then he wanted a divorce?

# 682 A:

Oh, no, no, no, no. He says, you know, - "you want a separation, then we get divorced. That's it. It's over."

# 683 Q:

So OJ. told you that if Nicole wanted a separation, then he wanted a divorce, but he did not want to have a separation.

# 684 A:

Yes.

# 685 Q:

Is that what you're saying?

# 686 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 687 Q:

But he told you that he was prepared to go back in the marriage, but no legal separation, get back together

# 688 A:

Yes.

# 689 Q:

-live in the same house.

# 690 A:

Right.

# 691 Q:

And Nicole told you that that was not acceptable to her. Correct? She wanted a separation.

# 692 A:

She wanted a separation, yes.

# 693 Q:

Okay. And after [Name Deleted], who did Nicole next have a relationship with?

# 694 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 695 Q:

And after [Name Deleted]?

# 696 A:

[Name Deleted]-I mean [Name Deleted].

# 697 Q:

And after [Name Deleted]?

# 698 A:

[Name Deleted]? [Name Deleted].

# 699 Q:

[Name Deleted]?

# 700 A:

[Name Deleted], you know, the guy, the Cabo.

# 701 Q:

That's the next year, though. Right?

# 702 A:

Uh-huh.

# 703 Q:

Correct? She had a relationship with [Name Deleted] in 1992-

# 704 A:

Yeah.

# 705 Q:

-and into 1993. Right?

# 706 A:

Uh-huh.

# 707 PHILIP KRAMER:

Is that a yes?

# 708 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes. Wait. Could you repeat the question? I want to make sure-

# 709

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 710 Q:

I think you jumped a year on me.

# 711 A:

Yeah, I'm getting confused now.

# 712 Q:

Okay. After [Name Deleted] she then dated [Name Deleted], and that was the Christmas of '92 into January of '93. Correct?

# 713 A:

'93, correct, yes.

# 714 Q:

And after [Name Deleted] she went back with Mr. Simpson. Correct?

# 715 A:

Yes, around March, yes.

# 716 Q:

Around March. And in between there, there's Marcus Allen somewhere. Right?

# 717 A:

Yes.

# 718 Q:

The first time.

# 719 A:

Yeah.

# 720 Q:

And when was-

# 721 A:

In between also, when she left- when she went to move to Gretna Green, that's when the relationship with Marcus Allen started. You know, whenever Marcus Allen was in town, she saw Marcus.

# 722 Q:

She saw Marcus Allen almost immediately when she moved into the Gretna Green-

# 723 A:

Not right away, no.

# 724 Q:

She moved in January of '93 or- excuse me-January of 1992 or thereabouts.

# 725 A:

Uh-huh. Yes.

# 726 Q:

That was the first place she moved into out of Rockingham. Correct?

# 727 A:

Right, Uh-huh.

# 728 Q:

And you are saying not too long thereafter she began to see Marcus Allen?

# 729 A:

Right.

# 730 Q:

Okay. Did she see him continuously through the year of 1992?

# 731 A:

Not continuously. Whenever he was around, whenever he was in town.

# 732 Q:

And did there come a time when she stopped seeing Marcus Allen?

# 733 A:

Yes.

# 734 Q:

And when was that?

# 735 A:

When she went back to OJ.

# 736 Q:

In around March or April of 1993. Correct?

# 737 A:

Right.

# 738 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Simpson ever confronted [Name Deleted] or [Name Deleted] while Nicole was dating them?

# 739 A:

No, OJ. didn't confront them.

# 740 Q:

And do you know whether he ever confronted Marcus Allen about Nicole's dating him.'

# 741 A:

I-yes, I think the two of them talked.

# 742 Q:

And how do you know that?

# 743 A:

Because Nicole told me and OJ. told me.

# 744 Q:

Tell me what OJ. told you about that talk.

# 745 A:

That they talked and that Marcus Allen apologized. That's pretty much, you know-

# 746 Q:

When did OJ. tell you that?

# 747 A:

Around-it was around that tune when Nicole told-when Nicole told OJ. about the affair, so say April, May, June, because they were already playing golf already, and then Marcus' wedding took place at Rockingham.

# 748 Q:

Did OJ. tell you he was unhappy when he learned about that affair?

# 749 A:

Of course, yeah. He was shocked, yeah.

He was shocked?

# 750 A:

Yeah.

# 751 Q:

Do you know what prompted Nicole to tell Mr. Simpson about her affair with Marcus Allen?

# 752 A:

Because she felt that if they were gonna start a life together, that they were gonna come clean both ways. No more womanizing, and she's not going to have any secrets or any men. If it's the two of them, it's just the two of them.

# 753 Q:

And at that point she told Mr. Simpson the various men-

# 754 A:

Yes.

# 755 Q:

-she had been dating?

# 756 A:

Right.

# 757 Q:

Including Marcus Allen?

# 758 A:

Yes.

# 759 Q:

Now, wasn't that Mr. Simpson's idea, that she disclose to him all of her relationships?

# 760 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 761 CORA FISCHMAN:

It was not his idea. It was also Nicole's idea, because she felt like if they gonna start something, they gonna start fresh with no secrets.

# 762

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 763 Q:

Did she tell you, Nicole, that

Mr. Simpson had asked her to disclose all those relationships?

# 764 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 765

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 766 Q:

Did she tell you that?

# 767 A:

I think the two of them volunteered it, talked about their relationship.

# 768 Q:

How do you know they both volunteered?

# 769 A:

Because she told me.

# 770 Q:

That's what she said?

# 771 A:

Yes.

# 772 Q:

Did you ever ask Mr. Simpson about that?

# 773 A:

Well, he told me-

# 774 PHILIP KRAMER:

Did you ask?

# 775 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 776

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 777 Q:

And what did he tell you?

# 778 A:

That Nicole told-see, but-

# 779 Q:

What did he tell you? That's my question.

# 780 A:

Oh, that Nicole told him everything.

# 781 Q:

Did he tell you that he had asked Nicole to tell him.'

# 782 A:

No.

# 783 Q:

Okay. Did he tell Nicole everything?

# 784 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

BY MR. PETROCELLI: Did he tell you that he then told Nicole everything?

# 785 A:

Yeah, I think so, yes.

# 786 Q:

What did he tell you that he told Nicole? MR. BAKER: I think that's triple hearsay.

# 787 CORA FISCHMAN:

What did-

# 788

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 789 Q:

What did he tell you that he told Nicole?

# 790 A:

Well, they talked about Paula.

# 791 Q:

Anyone else?

# 792 A:

That was it.

# 793 Q:

Okay. And this conversation occurred when they reconciled?

# 794 A:

They were trying-yes.

# 795 Q:

And so when they reconciled, the understanding was neither would date anyone else. Right?

# 796 A:

Excuse me?

# 797 Q:

Neither would date anyone else.

# 798 A:

Right.

# 799 Q:

Now, did either Nicole or OJ. Simpson tell you of any ground rules that they set for their reconciliation period?

# 800 A:

Ground rules?

# 801 Q:

Yeah.

# 802 A:

That they were to be committed to each other.

# 803 Q:

And that Nicole would move in?

# 804 A:

Oh, no, they didn't talk about that right away, no. No.

# 805 Q:

Did OJ. Simpson ever talk to you during this year in which they were trying to reconcile about letting Nicole move back in?

# 806 A:

They weren't even thinking of that, moving back in, no.

# 807 Q:

How do you know that?

# 808 A:

Because Nicole at the time said they really have to work themselves first before the two of them move back.

# 809 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson say to you that he wanted Nicole to move back in at anytime since they began to reconcile?

# 810 A:

If Mr. Simpson asked?

# 811 Q:

Yes.

# 812 A:

No.

# 813 Q:

Did he ever have a conversation with you when he said, "I want Nicole to move in now. I think it's time that she move in"?

# 814 A:

Well, if they move in, they said they have to be ready for each other.

# 815 Q:

What did OJ. Simpson say to you about that? That's what I'm trying to find out.

# 816 A:

What did OJ. Simpson say?

# 817 Q:

About Nicole moving in. Tell me what he said to you.

# 818 A:

You know, the moving in, it's kinda -what they-the two of them talk about moving back together, and they say, "No. We love each other, but we cannot live together. I think it's better to have each other place," you know. So I don't know what kind of answer you want me to-

# 819 Q:

I am just trying to get from you what Mr. Simpson told you about the subject of Nicole moving into his house, what he told you.

# 820 A:

I don't remember. They both wanted to be together, but they could not find the time or-they seemed not ready to live in one house because they said that they don't want any more fighting, you know, because they said, you know, "You can't put the kids back and forth from one house and then separate." So they were just more concerned about the kids. Especially Nicole was concerned also about the kids, you know.

# 821 Q:

Did-

# 822 A:

So I cannot answer. It's hard for me to answer that question.

# 823 Q:

Did OJ. Simpson tell you that he had given Nicole any rules or requirements or stipulations for this reconciliation?

# 824 A:

Yes.

# 825 Q:

Mr. Simpson told you that?

# 826 A:

Well, yeah, he mentioned to me.

# 827 Q:

What did he tell you?

# 828 A:

He said that, you know, "If we move back together, I will not"-"I will not allow this going out with the girls and going out dancing." That was one. And, you know, he says, "If we were committed to each other, that's it; we're committed to each other, but I will not tolerate the going out and going out with girls and coming back at 3:00, 4:00 o'clock in the morning?" That's what he said.

# 829 Q:

Did he tell you that there were any friends of Nicole that he would not allow her to see?

# 830 A:

Yes.

# 831 Q:

Who?

# 832 A:

Like [Name Deleted].

# 833 Q:

What did he say to you about [Name Deleted] and not wanting Nicole to see her?

# 834 A:

Because [Name Deleted] is a cocaine addict.

# 835 Q:

Is that what Mr. Simpson told you?

# 836 A:

Well, Nicole told me that, too, that OJ. doesn't like [Name Deleted] because, you know, they're bad influence.

# 837 Q:

And Mr. Simpson told you that also?

# 838 A:

At some point, yeah, he mentioned to me.

# 839 Q:

Any other friends that he said he didn't want Nicole to see?

# 840 A:

That's pretty much who.

# 841 Q:

Did he tell you that there was a period of time, a deadline, for which he was going to participate in this reconciliation process with Nicole?

# 842 A:

A deadline?

# 843 Q:

Yeah.

# 844 A:

There was never a deadline on this two, anyway.

# 845 Q:

He never told you of any such deadline. Correct?

# 846 A:

No.

# 847 Q:

He never said, "I'm only going to give it one year and that's it." Correct? Correct?

# 848 A:

I don't remember that. I don't want to say yes and then, you know-I don't remember that.

# 849 Q:

Okay. And Nicole never told you of a one-year deadline either. Correct?

# 850 A:

Correct, yeah.

# 851 Q:

Do you know if they then began to see a therapist together at any time during this period?

# 852 A:

Yeah, they tried-they saw a therapist.

# 853 Q:

And who was the therapist?

# 854 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 855 Q:

[Name Deleted]?

# 856 A:

Yes.

# 857 Q:

Do you know how often they went together to [Name Deleted]?

# 858 A:

I don't know. I don't remember.

# 859 Q:

Did Nicole tell you about her visits with Mr. Michaels from time to time?

# 860 A:

Yeah, she told me, yes.

# 861 Q:

And did she tell you how OJ. was responding to going to see [Name Deleted]?

# 862 A:

Yeah, the two of them, yes.

# 863 Q:

And what did she tell you about that?

# 864 A:

She says that they're going to try to make a commitment and that they're working on their relationship and that they're gonna try and-that's pretty much that's what it is. They're gonna try and work it out, see what happens.

# 865 Q:

And after the visits to [Name Deleted], would Nicole tell you how they went?

# 866 A:

How they went?

# 867 Q:

Yeah, how the visits went and how OJ. was responding to the visits.

# 868 A:

No, not really.

# 869 Q:

Did you ever talk to OJ. Simpson about his visits with [Name Deleted]?

# 870 A:

No.

# 871 Q:

No. Okay. Now, was there a period of time aftern they began to see one another in April of '93 that things were going well, based on your observations?

# 872 A:

Right, yeah.

# 873 Q:

And how long was that?

# 874 A:

'93 was when they went to Cabo. They had a great time in Cabo, so- and then when he left, it started- Nicole started changing her mind, and she didn't want-

# 875 Q:

When Mr. Simpson left to go to New York for the football season. Is that what you mean?

# 876 A:

Football season?

# 877 Q:

You said "when he left."

# 878 A:

You're talking about April? You're talking about April of '93?

# 879 Q:

Yes.

# 880 PHILIP KRAMER:

I think you're talking about '94.

# 881 CORA FISCHMAN:

Oh, '94. You talking about April of '94?

# 882

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 883 Q:

No. I am talking about now the two of them are planning to get back together, and they start their reconciliation.

# 884 A:

Right.

# 885 Q:

-April of '93-

# 886 A:

I'm sorry.

# 887 Q:

-and I asked you if there was period of time during which things appeared to you to be going well between them, and you said yes.

# 888 A:

Yes. Yes. Right.

# 889 Q:

Okay. And I asked you how long a period of time was that.

# 890 A:

Pretty much that whole year, from April to the time that they went to Cabo.

# 891 Q:

When did they go to Cabo?

# 892 A:

In March, late March of '93-'94.

# 893 Q:

So for that entire year, based on your observations-

# 894 A:

Uh-huh.

# 895 Q:

-the relationship was progressing very well?

# 896 A:

It was off and on yeah, because-

# 897 Q:

"Off and on," I'm confused by that. What does "off and on" mean ?

# 898 A:

Well, they would plan on getting married the following year, and then they said no, they're really not ready to live together, but they could be together but not living together, so that's what I mean by off and on? But if they had a good relationship, I would say yes, they did.

# 899 Q:

During that year.

# 900 A:

Yes.

# 901 Q:

There were no breaks in that relationship during that year?

# 902 A:

I don't think so, no.

# 903 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you during that year that it was not going to work out and she was changing her mind and . . .

# 904 A:

April...You know what? She must have said it at one time, yeah.

# 905 Q:

When did she say it?

# 906 A:

I don't remember. You know, it's hard when you're running and you're just talking, it's-I don't remember but, yeah, we talked about that. Like sometimes she feels like it was too early for her to go back to OJ., like she's not really ready. She felt like she just wanted like another year. She said, "I came back to OJ. too early," but she was willing to work it out, you know.

# 907 Q:

Well, yeah. What I am trying to find out is, you're talking about when they would get back together as a husband and wife and live in the same home again. Right?

# 908 A:

Yeah, right.

# 909 Q:

But during this period of time you understood that what they were doing was not seeing other people, but just concentrating-

# 910 A:

Right.

# 911 Q:

-on their relationship, right, to try to make it work. Right?

# 912 A:

Right.

# 913 Q:

But was there a time in that year when Nicole told you or OJ. Simpson told you that they don't want to try it make it work anymore, that they want to stop it?

# 914 A:

Oh, no, no, they-

# 915 Q:

That never happened?

# 916 A:

No, it didn't happen.

# 917 Q:

And Nicole never said to you, "You know, I want to start seeing other men again," or, "I want to start dating again"?

# 918 A:

No.

# 919 Q:

At no time?

# 920 A:

No. No time, no.

# 921 Q:

Did you talk to Mr. Simpson from time to time during that year about this relationship and his feelings about it?

# 922 A:

Uh-huh, yes.

# 923 Q:

And what did he tell you, as that year progressed, about the relationship?

# 924 A:

Well, you know, they both were

# 925 Q:

I am asking you what he did, not -what he told you.

# 926 A:

Oh, what he told me? He just wants to make sure that what Nicole is doing is-whatever she was doing is what she wants to do. That's pretty much it. He says, "Do you think she really is serious about that?"

I said, "Yeah," you know, "look what we're doing," you know, "we even taking" _ "playing"-you know, she never liked to play golf. We started taking golf lessons. You know, we did a lot of things. And at the time she was gonna move to wherever OJ. wanted her to move. That time they talked about Cabo San Lucas. You know, they found a place.

# 927 Q:

Tell me about that. They found a place in Cabo?

# 928 A:

Yes, they found-no. OJ. said they had a lot in Cabo and-

# 929 Q:

A lot?

# 930 A:

A- MR. BAKER: A space, lot.

# 931 CORA FISCHMAN:

A lot. A lot. Space.

# 932

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 933 Q:

Right. They had-

# 934 A:

Property.

# 935 Q:

-purchased it?

# 936 A:

Yeah.

# 937 Q:

Who purchased it?

# 938 A:

I don't know. But-so Nicole was excited about that because she said, "Oh, that's great. I'll just be in Cabo and sunbathe the whole"-you know, and Nicole wanted to move to wherever OJ. wanted to move, so...

# 939 Q:

Did Nicole tell you that she would have to sell her-or use her savings to help pay for that place in Cabo, to build it out?

# 940 A:

To use her savings?

# 941 Q:

Yeah, to use the money she had gotten from her divorce settlement.

# 942 A:

She never-

# 943 Q:

Never discussed that with you?

# 944 A:

No, she didn't talk to me. We didn't even, you know, didn't talk about that.

# 945 Q:

Did either person, Nicole or OJ. Simpson, ever tell you of any fights or arguments that they had during that year from April of '93 to April of '94?

# 946 A:

I'm sorry. What?

# 947 Q:

Did either one ever tell you about I any fights or arguments that they had during that year?

# 948 A:

Huge fight, no, but I'm sure arguments, they had arguments.

# 949 Q:

you don't recall any major-

# 950 A:

A major-

Q -battles between them,

# 951 A:

No, no major battles.

# 952 Q:

In October of '93 there was an incident when Nicole called 911. Correct?

# 953 A:

Oh, yes. Right, yeah.

# 954 Q:

Did she tell you about that incident?

# 955 A:

She told me that incident the day after our run, and she said, you know, "OJ. got mad at me."

And I said, "Why?"

"Oh, about those pictures I have in the house."

I says, "You mean all the guys' pictures."

She says, "Yeah."

# 956 Q:

Whose pictures?

# 957 A:

All the guys. Nicole has all these pictures of all the different men in her family room, and, see-

# 958 Q:

In a photo album?

# 959 A:

No. It's just like in, what do you call this, frames.

# 960 Q:

And they were laid out on tables

# 961 A:

Laid out in the living room and the family room, you know.

# 962 Q:

You are saying that when she and Mr. Simpson decided to work things out in April of '93, she kept those pictures out?

# 963 A:

Some of them out, yes, but then she put away most of the solo pictures of the different men.

# 964 Q:

Put them away?

# 965 A:

Put them away.

# 966 Q:

Okay.

# 967 A:

But what made OJ. mad was when they were in-see, what Nicole told me and also what OJ. also told me was Nicole went to Rockingham and noticed the picture of Paula in the family room, and Nicole got mad at OJ. She said, "You said there won't be any more pictures. Why is there a picture of Paula here?. And Nicole got mad because the frame that was used was the frame of their wedding picture, and so Nicole was upset with that.

So she-they started fighting over that, and she went home, and OJ. went to her house, and they were already saying-you know, they were fighting. He says, "What's going on? You're telling me not to have pictures, and here you have pictures." And he says, "Look at you, look at all these pictures you have." You know, "Who's Keith?" And Marcus Allen, whatever. That's the time-and he was yelling. She went upstairs and called 911.

# 968 Q:

She told you that-

# 969 A:

Yes.

# 970 Q:

-the next day?

# 971 A:

Yeah, she called me-no, she didn't tell me about that. I just realized that the 911 tape was when I was watching the video, you know, whatever the testifying.

# 972 Q:

I see. So Nicole never told you after this incident on October 25, 1993 that it had occurred to the extent that it did. Right?

# 973 A:

Uh-huh, yeah.

# 974 Q:

Correct?

# 975 A:

She didn't tell me about the 911, no. She just told me that they had a fight.

# 976 Q:

She didn't tell you about the police coming out. Right?

# 977 A:

No, she didn't tell me.

# 978 Q:

Did she tell you that OJ. had broken a door down?

# 979 A:

She didn't tell me that.

# 980 Q:

So based on what she told you, you didn't regard it as a big fight, just an argument. Right?

# 981 A:

Yeah, well, because the way she told me.

# 982 Q:

So were you surprised when you heard the tape?

# 983 A:

Very surprised, yeah.

# 984 Q:

Do you have any reason-do you know of any reason why Nicole didn't tell you the truth about what happened?

# 985 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 986 CORA FISCHMAN:

The reason why?

# 987

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 988 Q:

Yes.

# 989 A:

When I found out, I was shocked.

# 990 Q:

You know, what I am asking you is: Given your close relationship with Nicole-

# 991 A:

Yeah.

# 992 Q:

- do you have any reason or belief why she didn't tell you about it?

# 993 A:

I don't know why she didn't tell me.

# 994 Q:

Did she tend to guard things like that and keep them private?

# 995 A:

Probably, yes, yes.

# 996 Q:

Was she embarrassed by incidents like that?

# 997 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 998 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know. Probably.

# 999

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1000 Q:

Now, did you speak to OJ. Simpson about that incident shortly after it occurred?

# 1001 A:

Yeah, she told-he told me about the pictures, you know, they fought about pictures. He says, you know "I'm looking at the pictures. She's mad at the pictures, and I go to her house; they've got pictures"-"she's got pictures of all the men in her life, though." That's pretty much-

# 1002 Q:

Did he tell you that she had called 911?

# 1003 A:

Did he tell me?

# 1004 Q:

Yes.

# 1005 A:

He didn't tell me.

# 1006 Q:

Did he tell you that he had broken a door?

# 1007 A:

He didn't tell me.

# 1008 Q:

Did he tell you that the police had come out?

# 1009 A:

I didn't know that. He didn't tell me.

# 1010 Q:

Did Nicole during her divorce proceedings with OJ. Simpson tell you that the divorce was-that she was going to settle the case rather than go to court? Did she discuss that with you?

# 1011 A:

No, she didn't discuss that with me.

# 1012 Q:

Do you know that her-a trial in her divorce case actually began? Did you know that?

# 1013 A:

No, I did not.

# 1014 Q:

Did you attend the trial?

# 1015 A:

No.

# 1016 Q:

Did she tell you when she had settled with OJ. Simpson that she had done so?

# 1017 A:

Yes.

# 1018 Q:

And did she tell you why she had done so?

# 1019 A:

Pretty much, yes.

# 1020 Q:

And what did she tell you?

# 1021 Q:

She told me that she just wanted to end and that she wanted to have a life with [Name Deleted], and

[Name Deleted]has kinda told her that, you know, "Why don't you just settle, so that way we can buy a house." You know, because she was planning on living together with [Name Deleted] at that time.

# 1022 Q:

Did she tell you that Mr. Simpson pressured her into not testifying in court about their relationship?

# 1023 A:

Pressured?

# 1024 (Nods head.)

# 1025 A:

No, she didn't tell me about that.

# 1026 Q:

Did she tell you that Mr. Simpson had discussed with her that it would not be wise financially for the whole family if she testified in court?

# 1027 A:

She didn't tell me that.

# 1028 Q:

Never discussed any of that with you?

# 1029 A:

No.

# 1030 Q:

Did she tell you that she was seeing a therapist named [Name Deleted]?

# 1031 A:

Yes, she told me that.

# 1032 Q:

Did-she tell you that she was seeing [Name Deleted] at the time that she was seeing her, or was it much later that she told you?

# 1033 A:

No, she told me those-she had two sessions with that lady-

# 1034 Q:

[Name Deleted]?

# 1035 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 1036 Q:

When did she tell you about [Name Deleted]?

# 1037 A:

During the time that she was seeing-

# 1038 Q:

Okay. And what-

# 1039 A:

It was of the early part of '92.

# 1040 Q:

Correct. And what did she tell you about [Name Deleted]?

# 1041 A:

She said it was too expensive and she wasn't getting anything from it.

# 1042 Q:

Did she tell you why she was seeing [Name Deleted]?

# 1043 A:

Because she read this book about obsessive love and she thought it was interesting, and that she said, "Oh, my God, look at this," and so that's why she went and contacted the author.

# 1044 Q:

[Name Deleted]?

# 1045 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 1046 Q:

And when she read "Obsessive Love," she told you that it reminded her of things that had happened in her relationship with OJ. Simpson. Right?

# 1047 A:

Yes.

# 1048 Q:

Did you-in all the years you knew Nicole, did you believe her to be a dishonest person?

# 1049 A:

Did I who?

# 1050 Q:

Believe her to be a dishonest person.

# 1051 A:

No. I believed, no.

# 1052 Q:

Do you believe that she was a person who would deceive other people or try to deceive other people?

# 1053 A:

No.

# 1054 Q:

Okay. You answered no.

# 1055 JOHN KELLY:

I'm sorry. I didn't hear the answer.

# 1056 CORA FISCHMAN:

No.

# 1057

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1058 Q:

Did Nicole tell you that she was going to try to deceive OJ. Simpson in order to get money from him?

# 1059 A:

No.

# 1060 Q:

Did Nicole tell you that she was involved in a scheme, a fraud that would be perpetrated on OJ. Simpson in order to get money from him-

# 1061 A:

No.

# 1062 Q:

-in order to get out of a prenuptial agreement?

# 1063 A:

No.

# 1064 Q:

Did she ever tell you that she was doing such things?

# 1065 A:

She never told me.

# 1066 Q:

Okay. Did she tell you that she was going to invent stories of abuse about OJ. Simpson in order to assist her ease in the divorce proceedings?

# 1067 A:

No.

# 1068 Q:

Has anyone ever asked you whether Nicole made up stories of abuse against OJ. Simpson?

# 1069 A:

No.

# 1070 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson ever ask you that at any time?

# 1071 A:

No.

# 1072 Q:

Did he ever discuss that subject with you?

# 1073 A:

No.

# 1074 Q:

Have you ever heard Mr. Simpson's claim that Nicole invented stories of abuse in order to deceive him in the divorce case?

# 1075 A:

No.

# 1076 Q:

Are you aware that he has testified to that in his deposition?

# 1077 A:

No, I'm not aware of it.

# 1078 Q:

Okay. Have you read his deposition?

# 1079 A:

No.

# 1080 ROBERT BAKER:

That would take a week.

# 1081 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't follow these things, so...

# 1082

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1083 Q:

Okay. Do you believe that Nicole was the kind of person who would do such a thing?

# 1084 A:

Do what?

# 1085 Q:

Invent stories-

# 1086 A:

No.

# 1087 Q:

-of abuse?

# 1088 PHILIP KRAMER:

Let him finish his question-

# 1089 CORA FISCHMAN:

Sorry.

# 1090 PHILIP KRAMER:

- and then think about the answer and then answer the question.

# 1091 CORA FISCHMAN:

If I know the answer. MR. PETROCELLI: She said no, she was not that kind of person.

# 1092 Q:

Is that your testimony?

# 1093 A:

Yes.

# 1094 Q:

Okay. Based on your knowledge and experience and your relationship with Nicole, if Nicole wrote down incidents of abuse, do you believe that they occurred?

# 1095 A:

If I believe?

# 1096 Q:

If she wrote them down and described them, would you say that she was telling the truth?

# 1097 A:

If it was her writing, yes.

# 1098 Q:

Did she ever tell you about any incident of abuse other than the New Year's Eve incident?

# 1099 A:

No. That was the only one.

# 1100 Q:

Did you ever ask her?

# 1101 A:

No.

# 1102 Q:

Did you ever ask her, "How many times did OJ. beat you?"

# 1103 A:

No, we never talked about it.

# 1104 Q:

Did she ever ask you whether your husband beat you?

# 1105 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 1106 CORA FISCHMAN:

That one? Yes, I said

# 1107

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1108 Q:

Excuse me?

# 1109 A:

I'm sorry. What-

# 1110 Q:

Did she ever ask you whether your husband beat you or hit you-

# 1111 A:

Oh, me?

# 1112 Q:

Yeah. -or abused you?

# 1113 A:

She did ask me.

# 1114 Q:

And what did you tell her?

# 1115 A:

I said, "No, never."

# 1116 Q:

When did she ask you?

# 1117 A:

I don't know. When we go for our runs and stuff like that.

# 1118 Q:

Okay. What did she tell you about [Name Deleted], about their sessions?

# 1119 A:

That her sessions were boring and that her sessions were-she really didn't help her at all understand and that she couldn't afford it. That's pretty much what she told me.

# 1120 Q:

Now, you told Barbara Walters that there was a period of time when OJ. was following Nicole and you around. Do you remember that?

# 1121 A:

Yes.

# 1122 Q:

Now, was that during the period when OJ. and Nicole were going through their divorce?

# 1123 A:

Yeah. '92.

# 1124 Q:

In 1992. Correct?

# 1125 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1126 Q:

And could you tell us where OJ. was following Nicole and you around and how he was doing so?

# 1127 PHILIP KRAMER:

Is this different from the questions of yesterday-

# 1128 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Well, yesterday focused I think on the '94 time period in particular.

# 1129 PHILIP KRAMER:

The two restaurants?

# 1130 CORA FISCHMAN:

But I told you the two. There were two-twice that we-that OJ. was there when we got there: One was Mezzaluna. I remember that was a Tuesday, and we were there, and OJ. walked in with a friend, and at that time Nicole-there were like a lot of guys sitting, and there was one guy sitting on her lap, and when OJ. walked in, he said to Nicole, "Is this what you wanted?" and all of a sudden, all the guys just left and-

# 1131

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1132 Q:

Who was the guy sitting on Nicole's lap?

# 1133 A:

Oh, God, I don't remember. The bartender-at the time Keith was there.

# 1134 Q:

This is 1992?

# 1135 A:

Yeah.

# 1136 Q:

And OJ. was upset when he said that?

# 1137 A:

Well, kinda like he was shocked. He goes, "This is what you wanted."

# 1138 Q:

What does that mean, "This is what you wanted?"

# 1139 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 1140 CORA FISCHMAN:

Well, all the men all over-

# 1141

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1142 Q:

All over Nicole?

# 1143 A:

Yeah.

# 1144 Q:

And was it just Nicole surrounded by a bunch of men?

# 1145 A:

Yeah. Yeah.

# 1146 Q:

Were you there?

# 1147 A:

Well, I was there. What I was doing, I went to the bathroom, and I was there. I saw all of a sudden all the guys started disappearing.

# 1148 Q:

Where did they go?

# 1149 A:

They all went into different directions.

# 1150 Q:

When all the men scattered, was Nicole left alone at the table then?

# 1151 A:

Yes.

# 1152 Q:

And what did OJ. say to her at that time?

# 1153 A:

OJ. just-OJ. was away. OJ. went to the bar, to the other side.

# 1154 Q:

He only made that one comment, "Is that what you want, all of this?"

# 1155 A:

"This is all what you want."-"Is this all what you wanted?"

# 1156 Q:

Okay. Now, is that the only incident where you think he followed her in 1992?

# 1157 A:

That one end then when we went to Tryst.

# 1158 Q:

Again in 1992?

# 1159 A:

In 1992, yeah.

# 1160 Q:

Describe that one for us again.

# 1161 A:

Oh, God. We were waiting for our table. That was the opening night of that restaurant. We were waiting at the table-for our table, and it was crowded, and all of a sudden, you know, a few minuses after OJ. was there, and so Nicole goes, "Guess what? He's around."

# 1162 Q:

Who were you with?

# 1163 A:

At that time I was with [Name Deleted]; [Name Deleted] was there; Keith was there. I think that was it.

# 1164 Q:

And then OJ. entered?

# 1165 A:

OJ. walked in with another friend

# 1166 Q:

Who was it?

# 1167 A:

I don't remember. I don't know the names. And then he left.

# 1168 Q:

Did he say anything to Nicole?

# 1169 A:

No.

# 1170 Q:

Nothing?

# 1171 A:

See, we were there. I was-we were kinda like trying to avoid him, you know, because we felt uncomfortable, and said, "Oh, God, he's here.."

# 1172 Q:

Did he see Nicole?

# 1173 A:

He must have seen Nicole.

# 1174 Q:

Did he say anything to her?

# 1175 A:

No.

# 1176 Q:

Did he appear upset?

# 1177 A:

Well, we sort of like - they walked in and then he walked out.

# 1178 Q:

Is that all you can remember?

# 1179 A:

That's-yeah.

# 1180 A:

Yes.

# 1181 Q:

Now, there was an incident at Toscana's when he threatened Alessandro. Correct?

# 1182 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 1183 CORA FISCHMAN:

See, I wasn't there.

# 1184

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1185 Q:

Did you see him threaten Alessandro?

# 1186 A:

No.

# 1187 Q:

Were you told that he had done so?

# 1188 A:

Who told me?

# 1189 Q:

Anyone.

# 1190 A:

No.

# 1191 Q:

Nobody told you?

# 1192 A:

No. All I know is she told me that

# 1193 PHILIP KRAMER:

"She" is who?

# 1194 CORA FISCHMAN:

Nicole said, Guess what? [Name Deleted] was here."

I said, "Oh, really?" "Yeah." That was it.

BY MR. PETROCELLI: That's it. Nothing else.

# 1195 A:

Nothing else.

# 1196 Q:

So you don't know of any threat by OJ. against Alessandro?

# 1197 A:

No, I don't know anything about that.

# 1198 Q:

Okay. Now, you gave a statement that Nicole was being followed by OJ. in late 1994 or-that is, in May or June of 1994 while she was doing her errands. Do you recall that?

# 1199 A:

Uh-huh, she told me that.

# 1200 Q:

Okay. Tell me what she said in that regard.

# 1201 A:

She said, "Oh, God, I think I saw OJ.'s car behind me when I was doing all my errands."

I said, "Oh, really?" That was it. That was the conversation I had.

# 1202 Q:

That's it?

# 1203 A:

Yeah.

# 1204 Q:

Let me get back to your Alessandro incident. He was a hairdresser?

# 1205 A:

Uh-huh, yes.

# 1206 Q:

Okay. Let me read your statement that you gave to [Name Deleted]

"We were at Toscana"- "this hairdresser . . . . at some point when we were. . . at Toscana the guy was there.. And he went crazy . . . " Does that refresh your recollection as to what you saw that evening at Toscana?

# 1207 ROBERT BAKER:

What page are you on?

# 1208 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

6-5 and 6.

"And he went crazy . . . "

# 1209 A:

See, I wasn't there. See, at that time-

# 1210 Q:

That's what you said.

# 1211 A:

Well, see, I wasn't there-

# 1212 PHILIP KRAMER:

Cora, the question was, does that-the reading of that statement refresh your recollection of what happened that night and what you saw? Either it does or it doesn't. THE WITNESS: It doesn't.

# 1213

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1214 Q:

Why did you tell Michael Viner that OJ. went crazy?

# 1215 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 1216

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1217 Q:

Were you lying to him.'

# 1218 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative

# 1219 CORA FISCHMAN:

See, I don't remember that incident. See, when we left there, it must have been Faye and Christian were there, and-

# 1220

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1221 Q:

Let me ask you a question: Is everything-when you were talking to Michael Viner and the gentlemen there from the media, was everything that you told them true to the best of your knowledge at that time?

# 1222 A:

At the time, yes.

# 1223 Q:

Did you knowingly fabricate anything?

# 1224 A:

Fabricate?

# 1225 Q:

Yes.

# 1226 A:

No.

# 1227 Q:

Make it up. Invent.

# 1228 A:

No. I've always-

# 1229 Q:

Lie.

# 1230 A:

I've never lied, no.

# 1231 Q:

So everything you told them was truthful. Correct?

# 1232 A:

As far as-yes.

# 1233 Q:

And if you were under oath that day, you would have said the same thing. Correct?

# 1234 A:

Correct, yes.

# 1235 Q:

And while we are on that topic, we have pre-marked exhibits 156, 157 and 158 and 159, which are all statements by you. Okay?

Exhibit 156 is an interview-is a summary of a statement that you gave to Detectives LeFall and A.J. Luper on June 14, 1994, and Exhibit 157 is a summary of a statement you gave to Detective Payne on June 24. The first statement, by the way, is June 14th.

# 1236 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1237 Q:

Exhibit 156 is June 14. Exhibit 157 is June 24. The third statement you gave is on September 15th, 1994, and that was to a Detective Vannatter.

# 1238 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1239 Q:

Exhibit 158 is a summary of that statement. And Exhibit 159 is the Star article that you were paid-

# 1240 A:

Right.

# 1241 Q:

-for giving an interview.

# 1242 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1243 Q:

Okay? That's Exhibit 159. Now, were all the statements that you gave to the officers and to the Star people truthful?

# 1244 PHILIP KRAMER:

Hold on just a second. That-I am going to make a distinction in the question, because I want to make sure the witness is clear. You're asking whether what she said at the time to the people was truthful-

# 1245 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Correct.

# 1246 PHILIP KRAMER:

-you are not asking her whether everything contained in those exhibits is what she said. Right?

# 1247

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1248 Q:

I am asking, whatever you said, was it not truthful? Whatever you told the officers and told the Star Magazine-

# 1249 A:

As far as I can remember?

# 1250 Q:

As far as you knew at the time-

# 1251 A:

Yes.

# 1252 Q:

-was it honest and truthful?

# 1253 A:

Yes.

# 1254 Q:

And you didn't say anything that was untrue to your knowledge. Correct?

# 1255 A:

To my knowledge, yes.

# 1256 Q:

And if you were under oath in all those interviews and statements to the police and to the Star Magazine you would have said the same thing. Correct?

# 1257 A:

Okay. But the Star Magazine is not my words, though. They-I told them the story-

# 1258 PHILIP KRAMER:

Cora, that's not the question.

# 1259 CORA FISCHMAN:

Okay. BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1260 Q:

If you were under oath, you would have told them the same things that you told them. Correct?

# 1261 A:

Correct.

# 1262 Q:

The fact that you were not under oath didn't cause you to lie or make things up.

# 1263 A:

Yes.

# 1264 Q:

Or with-okay?

# 1265 A:

Yes.

# 1266 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I will get back to the statements. I will have her read them at a break, and then she can confirm that they're accurate things that she said. Okay?

# 1267 PHILIP KRAMER:

Fine.

# 1268 ROBERT BAKER:

Why don't we take a quick break right now.

# 1269 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay. That's fine.

THEVIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 11:20.

# 1270 (Recess.)

# 1271

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1272 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you that OJ. would spy on her from the bushes outside her apartment at Gretna Green?

# 1273 A:

Bushes?

# 1274 Q:

Or outside on the property?

# 1275 A:

I remember one time, yes.

# 1276 Q:

What did she say to you in that regard?

# 1277 A:

She said, "Oh, you know, what, Cora? There was a black man by my kitchen door and"-

# 1278 Q:

At Gretna Green?

# 1279 A:

Yes. And she got scared, and at that time she said, "It looks like it's" -"it looks like Jason."

# 1280 Q:

And it's also true that she told you that she believed that OJ. put Jason up to-

# 1281 A:

That's what she said.

# 1282 Q:

-going there. Correct?

# 1283 A:

Correct. Yes.

# 1284 Q:

You're cutting me off-

# 1285 A:

Correct.

# 1286 Q:

-So my questions are mishmash.

# 1287 A:

Okay. I'm sorry.

# 1288 Q:

But she told you that she thought OJ. Simpson had sent his son Jason there to frighten her. Correct?

# 1289 A:

Correct.

# 1290 Q:

Okay. That was when she was living at Gretna Green?

# 1291 A:

Correct.

# 1292 Q:

What's the time frame of that?

# 1293 A:

That's nighttime.

# 1294 Q:

That's a good answer. That's a good answer.

# 1295 A:

Time frame? When she just-

# 1296 Q:

Nighttime.

# 1297 A:

When she just moved to Gretna Green, so early part.

# 1298 Q:

Of 1992?

# 1299 A:

Right.

# 1300 Q:

Did she relate to you any other incidents during her time at Gretna Green when she thought OJ. Simpson was looking at her or spying on her or hiding in the bushes or anything like that other than the Keith Zlomsowitzh incident?

# 1301 A:

That was the one, the Keith.

# 1302 Q:

What about at Bundy? When she moved to Bundy, did she tell you about-

# 1303 A:

Bundy, no.

# 1304 Q:

- any incidents where OJ. would come and look at her, look in the windows or hide in the bushes?

# 1305 A:

No.

# 1306 Q:

You don't know anything about that?

# 1307 A:

No.

# 1308 Q:

Did you ever talk to any of her friends about that?

# 1309 A:

Of her friends?

# 1310 Q:

Yeah, like Faye Resnick or [Name Deleted].

# 1311 A:

No.

# 1312 Q:

No?

# 1313 A:

No.

# 1314 Q:

Never heard of any of that?

# 1315 A:

No. At that time, no.

# 1316 Q:

Do you recall the chapter in Faye Resnick's book called "The Bush Syndrome"? Did you read that chapter?

# 1317 A:

I didn't read the book. That's why. I glanced-

# 1318 Q:

You're not familiar with that chapter?

# 1319 A:

What's it about?

# 1320 Q:

About OJ. Simpson hiding in the bushes.

# 1321 A:

Of where?

# 1322 Q:

At Bundy.

# 1323 A:

See, I don't know that.

# 1324 Q:

You don't know anything about that?

# 1325 A:

No.

# 1326 Q:

Okay. When you used to run with Nicole, did Nicole carry a key with her?

# 1327 A:

Yes. No, we don't, no. We had-

# 1328 Q:

Let me clarify my question.

# 1329 A:

Right.

# 1330 Q:

When Nicole was living at Bundy

# 1331 A:

Uh-huh. Yes.

# 1332 Q:

- you and she would run together. Would she carry a key on her person, either like on a ring finger- a ring with a key attached to it?

# 1333 A:

She never carried a key.

# 1334 Q:

Never?

# 1335 A:

Never.

# 1336 Q:

How did she get in the house?

# 1337 A:

What we do is, when we run, she has a spare key that we-that she throws it by the plant by her gate, and we put it there and then we run.

# 1338 Q:

Was that key a single key or a key on a key chain?

# 1339 A:

It's a key on a key chain.

# 1340 Q:

And can you describe the key chain?

# 1341 A:

God, I don't remember now.

# 1342 Q:

Did she have a little Smoky the Bear key chain?

# 1343 A:

Smokey the Bear.

# 1344 Q:

Little Smoky the Bear ring with a key attached to it?

# 1345 A:

It was just a round key.

# 1346 Q:

How many keys were on that?

# 1347 A:

I think two.

# 1348 Q:

Two?

# 1349 A:

Yeah.

# 1350 Q:

And what did the keys operate? The front gate?

# 1351 A:

Just the front gate and the door.

# 1352 Q:

Front door?

# 1353 A:

Yes.

# 1354 Q:

And also the back gate?

# 1355 A:

See, the front and the door is one key, I think, for all-

# 1356 Q:

One key?

# 1357 A:

Yeah.

# 1358 Q:

And the back gate was a separate key?

# 1359 A:

See, I don't know the back door because we never went through that back door, so...

# 1360 Q:

The back gate?

# 1361 A:

The back gate. I assume that that one key is for the three gates.

# 1362 Q:

There was one key or two keys on this key chain that she would hide under the planter? How many keys?

# 1363 A:

You know what? I think not from my own-I think it's just one, because we just throw it in the bushes.

# 1364 Q:

When you would arrive at Nicole's condo at Bundy during the period January through June of 1994, would you buzz the gate in front?

# 1365 A:

Sometimes I do or sometimes- then when she gave me a key, I just opened it with my key.

# 1366 Q:

Well, when you used to buzz the gate, could you describe how that worked?

# 1367 A:

How it works?

# 1368 Q:

Yes. In other words, there was a doorbell. Right?

# 1369 A:

Yeah.

# 1370 Q:

You would press the button, press the doorbell?

# 1371 A:

Right.

# 1372 Q:

And then she could talk to you; there was a little speaker box?

# 1373 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 1374 Q:

And you said, "This is Cora?

# 1375 A:

Right.

# 1376 Q:

And if she wanted to let you in, how could she let you in? Did she buzz it, or did she have to come and open the gate manually?

# 1377 A:

Sometimes she buzz it. Sometimes -see, that thing works off and on. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work.

# 1378 Q:

Okay. When it's working, how can she let you in from inside the condo?

# 1379 A:

She will buzz it and the door will open. It would buzz, and then you open-

# 1380 Q:

You open it.

# 1381 A:

Yes.

# 1382 Q:

But there were times when it wasn't working.

# 1383 A:

Right.

# 1384 Q:

And when it wasn't working and you didn't use your key, how would she let you in?

# 1385 A:

She would get out and then open the-

# 1386 Q:

Go out the front door, walk down to the gate and then have to manually open it?

# 1387 A:

Yes.

# 1388 Q:

And do you remember whether the buzzer on the gate was working in dune of 1994?

# 1389 A:

If it was working?

# 1390 Q:

Or whether it was not working.

# 1391 A:

I don't remember, but it was working off and on. I already told you that.

# 1392 Q:

But do you know if it was working or not working around the time of her death?

# 1393 A:

I don't know that.

# 1394 Q:

When did you get the key?

# 1395 A:

When did I get the key?

# 1396 Q:

Yes.

# 1397 A:

Well, she moved in January of '94, so any time after that.

# 1398 Q:

Sometime after January of '94?

# 1399 A:

Yeah.

# 1400 Q:

And under what circumstances would you use the key?

# 1401 A:

Because every morning I go there, so it was easier for me to just walk in and out. Plus-

# 1402 Q:

So when you got the key, you would just use the key?

# 1403 A:

Right, yes.

# 1404 Q:

And then go to her front door and knock on the door or let yourself in?

# 1405 A:

Sometimes I knock at the door. Sometimes-the door is always unlocked, anyway. She leaves it unlocked, and I would just walk in or I use my key, so...

# 1406 Q:

During the time she was at Bundy, did Nicole ever tell you that she thought OJ. was spying on her at Bundy?

# 1407 A:

She never told me that, no.

# 1408 Q:

Never?

# 1409 A:

No.

# 1410 Q:

Did you ever let anybody use the key that Nicole gave you to her condo?

# 1411 A:

No. It was always on my key chain.

# 1412 Q:

Did OJ. Simpson know that you had a key to that condo?

# 1413 A:

He didn't know.

# 1414 Q:

Did there come a time before Nicole's death when one of her house keys was lost?

# 1415 A:

Yes.

# 1416 Q:

When did that occur?

# 1417 A:

Around June.

# 1418 Q:

And tell me what you know about that incident.

# 1419 A:

Well, we were gonna go for a run, and then she noticed that her key was missing. She said "Oh, my key is missing. I can't find it." So I said, "Okay, fine, we'll run," So- but that was the conversation that we had.

# 1420 Q:

Was it the same key that she had been using to put under the planter?

# 1421 A:

The one that we would throw in the bushes, yes.

# 1422 Q:

So what did she then do to get back to the house that day?

# 1423 A:

Well, it was either my key or we leave it unlocked or-[Name Deleted] was there, so-

# 1424 Q:

It was not a problem.

# 1425 A:

No.

# 1426 Q:

And do you know whether she ever found that key before she died?

# 1427 A:

I didn't know that.

# 1428 Q:

How long before her death did this incident occur?

# 1429 A:

What do you mean, "incident"? The key missing?

# 1430 Q:

Yes.

# 1431 A:

I would say early part of June.

# 1432 Q:

Did she tell you that she thought OJ. might have taken it?

# 1433 A:

At that time she thought that either OJ. or Faye, because at that time she said "Probably OJ. has it or and then she said, "probably Faye has it."

# 1434 Q:

Why did she-do you know why she thought that OJ. might have taken the key?

# 1435 A:

Well, because at the time OJ. was in and out of the house, too, because, see, OJ. was feeding-was helping -at that time OJ. was helping the kids, too, because he was there most of the time. They were trying to reconcile, too, at the time, so he was there.

# 1436 Q:

Wait a second. You're trying to tell me that they were trying to reconcile in June of 1994?

# 1437 A:

Well, now, he was-see, he was -she had pneumonia at that week of-

# 1438 Q:

That's middle of May.

# 1439 A:

-May.

# 1440 Q:

You told the police officers that their final breakup occurred a week and a half before her death.

# 1441 ROBERT BAKER:

Is that a question? A statement?

# 1442 CORA FISCHMAN:

A week and a half?

# 1443

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1444 Q:

Yes. You're not suggesting now that they were trying to reconcile that week and a half, are you?

# 1445 A:

No. No, they were not.

# 1446 Q:

So during that week and a half OJ. wouldn't have permission to your knowledge to go onto Bundy with a key to her house. Right?

# 1447 A:

See, she didn't know that OJ. had a key to the house.

# 1448 Q:

Is that right?

# 1449 A:

I'm sorry. What?

# 1450 Q:

It's not your understanding that OJ. had permission to have a key to Nicole's house during the last week and a half?

# 1451 A:

Yes.

# 1452 Q:

That's -

# 1453 A:

Yes, that's-

# 1454 Q:

That's true. Right?

# 1455 A:

That's true, yes.

# 1456 Q:

Did she tell you that she was concerned that OJ. might have a key to her house-

# 1457 A:

Yes, she did mention that, yes.

# 1458 Q:

-and that she wafted to get it back?

# 1459 A:

She didn't specify that.

# 1460 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether she did anything to get her key back?

# 1461 A:

She didn't-she didn't tell me that.

# 1462 Q:

Okay. Now, during the break you had a chance to review exhibits 156, 157, 158, which are all statements that you gave to police officers- actually, their reports of your statements.

# 1463 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1464 Q:

And 159 is the Star Magazine article for which you were paid money. Let's talk about Exhibit 156, June 14 interview with Detectives LeFall and A. J. Luper. Are all the statements reported in Exhibit 156 accurate?

# 1465 A:

Yes.

# 1466 Q:

Thank you. Exhibit 157 is a report of your interview with Detective Payne. Are all the statements in Exhibit 157 accurate?

# 1467 A:

Yes.

# 1468 Q:

Exhibit 158-

# 1469 PHILIP KRAMER:

I am pointing something-I am calling to the attention something to the witness.

# 1470 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Why? She can testify for herself.

# 1471 PHILIP KRAMER:

That's right.

# 1472 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

# 1473 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yeah.

# 1474

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1475 Q:

Thank you. Exhibit 158 is a report of your third interview with the police, this one with Detective Vannatter. That's on September 15th, 1994. Are the statements on Exhibit 158 accurate?

# 1476 A:

This-

# 1477 Q:

Are the statements accurate?

# 1478 A:

The statements are accurate, right.

# 1479 Q:

Thank you. And Exhibit 159, the article with the Star, are the statements attributed to you in this exhibit accurate?

# 1480 A:

Attributed to me?

# 1481 Q:

Yes.

# 1482 A:

Yes.

# 1483 Q:

Is there anything in Exhibit 159 that you believe is inaccurate?

# 1484 A:

Inaccurate? This part here (Indicating), because I was not there, so

# 1485 Q:

The witness is referring to the page 27 of the Star Magazine article, the description of the Kris and Bruce Jenner Christmas party in December of 1993?

# 1486 (Nods head.)

# 1487 Q:

And you are indicating that you were not present?

# 1488 A:

Yes.

# 1489 Q:

So the statements about that party attributed to you are not correct?

# 1490 A:

Right.

# 1491 Q:

Or the observations attributed to you are not correct?

# 1492 A:

Correct.

# 1493 Q:

Okay. Now, what is the reason that you broke off your agreement with Brooke Skulski?

# 1494 A:

First, she wanted a sensationalized book, and I said, "I don't want a sensationalized book."

She says, "Cora, you have to expose yourself. You've got to talk. Nobody knows you."

That's why I ended up doing that, because she said, "You've got to do something or else nobody"-no publisher will want your book because nobody knows who Cora Fischman is."

And I said no, and that's why I kept on refusing to-I hold onto that one-year contract with her, but I told her, "I'll just put the book on hold," because I didn't want a sensational book. She wanted a sensational book, and I said I wanted to humanize Nicole; I wanted people to know who Nicole was. That's all I was-that was my intention if I wanted to ever write a book.

# 1495 Q:

Okay. And that was unacceptable to her?

# 1496 A:

She believes that if you do something like this in the tabloid, you would-people will know who I am, and this is exactly what she wanted me to do.

# 1497 Q:

She wanted you to do the Star Magazine article, and you did so. Right?

# 1498 A:

I did so, yeah, but I insisted only if it's a good article. I will not do anything that would harm.

# 1499 Q:

And after you did this article, what then caused you to stop working with Brooke Skulski on the book?

# 1500 A:

One was because I was subpoenaed, so when you're subpoenaed in the criminal, you can't do anything; you can't talk about the case or anything like that. So that one. Number two, she was very opinionated, and the voice that was coming from her, I didn't like the tone of her voice. It was just too-she-it was more a tabloid, and I didn't want a sensationalized book. I wanted a book that would memorialize my friend. That's all I wanted.

# 1501 Q:

Is-your lawsuit against the National Enquirer, does that have anything to do with Brooke Skulski?

# 1502 A:

Yes.

# 1503 Q:

What does that have to do with Brooke?

# 1504 A:

Because of that picture. She is the one, you know, she said, you know, "We need pictures."

I said, "Well, what kind of pictures? I don't want"-and I said, "Okay, we'll take this picture. It's been in the National Enquirer, I said, "Yeah, my housekeeper stole that picture," and that's when the lawsuit came.

# 1505 Q:

But you authorized the Star to print that picture. Right?

Was that picture included in the Star Magazine article?

# 1506 A:

Yeah. But they didn't put it on the first page, but they put it on the inside page, see, because they couldn't do that because at that time National Enquirer put it on the front page.

# 1507 Q:

Before this article came out, the National Enquirer printed-

# 1508 A:

No. The same week they had the same article. One was the Christmas story but with my picture on the National Enquirer. Whatever that family picture, National Enquirer put it on the front page and Star put it on the middle page.

# 1509 Q:

Did you agree to do an article for National Enquirer also?

# 1510 A:

No.

# 1511 Q:

And so what article did National Enquirer do the same week about you?

# 1512 A:

I don't remember.

# 1513 Q:

But you had nothing to do with that article?

# 1514 A:

No.

# 1515 Q:

Did Brooke provide information for that article?

# 1516 A:

I don't know. I don't think so.

# 1517 Q:

Did you copyright that photograph? Did you apply for a copyright on that photograph?

# 1518 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 1519 CORA FISCHMAN:

When? At that time?

# 1520

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1521 Q:

No. At any time

# 1522 A:

Yes.

# 1523 Q:

How many photographs-

# 1524 A:

How many photographs?

# 1525 Q:

-did you seek to copyright?

# 1526 A:

I don't know. How many photos?

# 1527 PHILIP KRAMER:

He is asking your knowledge. It's attached to exhibits to the deposition transcript.

# 1528

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1529 Q:

Why did you seek a copyright on a photograph?

# 1530 PHILIP KRAMER:

Don't say anything that your lawyers may have told you.

# 1531

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1532 Q:

You can't answer because of lawyers?

# 1533 A:

Yes.

# 1534 Q:

Let's get beck to the chronology of events in 1993 to 1994. Okay? And I was asking you about whether Nicole and OJ. Simpson had ever had any big fights, and you told me you didn't know of any at the time; later on found out about the 911 call. Okay?

# 1535 A:

Okay.

# 1536 Q:

Now, was there any time at all going into early '94 leading up to Nicole's trip to Cabo that she told you that she did not think things were going to work out after all?

# 1537 A:

As far as I can remember, she said that I think around February of '94.

# 1538 Q:

What did she say to you then?

# 1539 A:

She said that-I don't know. It's -I think it was also-I think it was after Cabo. That was after the- that's when she decided that it's not gonna work out.

# 1540 Q:

Did she tell you what caused her to feel that way, that it was not going to work out after all?

# 1541 A:

Because she said, "It's really not fair. OJ. and I, when we see each other, we get into each other and then he leaves," and then she said she gets lonely again, and she doesn't like that feeling. So she says, "I crave for him. I crave for him."

# 1542 Q:

So you are saying that she wanted to break off the relationship because she didn't want to be alone so much of the time?

# 1543 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 1544 Q:

Did she tell you about anything that happened at Cabo that disturbed her or upset her?

# 1545 A:

This was one incident where she said, "Oh, what happened? There were"-she said at some point she felt bored.

I said, "Why?"

"Because," she says, "it's so typical, you know. Everybody talks to OJ., and I'm just sitting there."

And I said, "What do you mean," you know? "It's like you're like a second- class citizen?"

And she said, "Yeah."

I said, "Well," you know, "that's what"-"gee, you're married to OJ."

# 1546 Q:

Did she tell you that OJ. and she had had an argument or fight in Cabo?

# 1547 A:

No. Actually, she said they had a great time. They had a great-that was-she said that was their best sex. They had a great time.

# 1548 Q:

Did she tell you that OJ. had upset her about making comments concerning frogs?

# 1549 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 1550 CORA FISCHMAN:

Frogs?

# 1551

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1552 Q:

Frogs.

# 1553 A:

No.

# 1554 Q:

Did you know that Nicole had a frog phobia?

# 1555 A:

Yes.

# 1556 Q:

She told you that?

# 1557 A:

Oh, yes.

# 1558 Q:

Did she tell you that OJ. was teasing her about that in Cabo?

# 1559 A:

It was [Name Deleted]who was teasing her, [Name Deleted]

# 1560 Q:

Who is that?

# 1561 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 1562 Q:

[Name Deleted]? You don't mean [Name Deleted], do you? [Name Deleted] is the fellow that she met a year or two before.

# 1563 A:

Yeah, right, before. That's how this whole thing started, where [Name Deleted]tried to tease-

# 1564 Q:

[Name Deleted]?

# 1565 A:

[Name Deleted] tried to tease Nicole with the frog and Nicole started screaming, or something like that.

# 1566 Q:

But that didn't occur in Cabo in April of '94. Right?

# 1567 A:

No, not in April.

# 1568 Q:

Did she tell you that OJ. had teased her about frogs in April '94?

# 1569 A:

No, she didn't tell me that.

# 1570 Q:

Did she tell you that OJ. had been flirting with another woman in Cabo?

# 1571 A:

No.

# 1572 Q:

She told you that she had had sex with another guy named [Name Deleted]in Cabo. Right?

# 1573 A:

Yes. She messed around.

# 1574 Q:

She messed around. And to your knowledge, now, this was the first time she had been with another man in over a year, since the time she decided to make things work with OJ. Simpson. Right?

# 1575 A:

Uh-huh, yes.

# 1576 Q:

So weren't you surprised by that?

# 1577 A:

Yes, I was.

# 1578 Q:

So did you inquire what happened, "Why did you decide to end your reconciliation?.

# 1579 A:

Well, at that time she was also seeing Marcus Allen. See, Marcus Allen was at her house intermittently. You know, not all the time. But I told you whenever Nicole-whenever OJ. was out of town-

# 1580 Q:

You mean even during the time that Nicole was living at Bundy?

# 1581 A:

Yes.

# 1582 Q:

And even before the Cabo trip?

# 1583 A:

I think so, yes.

# 1584 Q:

So when did she start to see Marcus Allen again?

# 1585 A:

You know, I can't-see, sometimes his name just popped out one time and goes, "He just called and I saw him."

I said, "Oh, really?" You know, so I really was not paying attention to the time frame.

# 1586 Q:

By this time Marcus Allen was married. Right?

# 1587 A:

Yes.

# 1588 Q:

Marcus had gotten married at OJ. Simpson's house in August of 1993. Right?

# 1589 A:

June of 19--

# 1590 Q:

June of 1993. Right?

# 1591 A:

Right.

# 1592 Q:

Now, how long after June of 1993 did Nicole start seeing Marcus again?

# 1593 A:

I don't know. I don't know.

# 1594 Q:

Now, earlier you had told me that Nicole and OJ. had agreed to be monogamous when they decided to reconcile in April of '93. Right?

# 1595 A:

Right.

# 1596 Q:

And so as far as you know, Nicole breached that understanding and that agreement when she started to see Marcus Allen when he would come into town when OJ. would go out of town. Right?

# 1597 A:

Right.

# 1598 Q:

And is that the only example of that you knew of Nicole breaching that agreement with OJ. Simpson?

# 1599 A:

Yes.

# 1600 Q:

When Nicole would tell you that she would see Marcus, did she also tell you that she didn't want things to work out any longer with OJ. Simpson or that she was still going to try to do that?

# 1601 A:

Yes, she still wanted to work things out with-

# 1602 Q:

Well, did she tell you why then she was continuing to see Marcus Allen from time to time?

# 1603 A:

Well, Marcus Allen kept on coming on to her.

# 1604 Q:

Did they have a strong sexual attraction, Marcus Allen and Nicole?

# 1605 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 1606 Q:

Have you ever spoken to Marcus Allen about any of this?

# 1607 A:

No.

# 1608 Q:

When Nicole told you that she had messed around in Cabo with this guy named [Name Deleted], she also told you that at this point in time she didn't think things were going to work out with Mr. Simpson, right, and she was going to try to move on with her life?

# 1609 A:

She didn't say that yet. She said she's not ready to be with OJ. yet.

# 1610 Q:

I see. But she was going to still try to pretend that she was going to work things out with him. Right?

# 1611 A:

Right.

# 1612 Q:

But then later on when she came back a

while later, she told you that she was going to stop altogether. Right?

# 1613 A:

Yeah, right.

# 1614 Q:

And just so I'm clear on this, can you give me a date when that-when she told you that it was over for good?

# 1615 A:

That was when OJ. wrote that letter.

# 1616 Q:

Around that time?

# 1617 A:

Right.

# 1618 Q:

That's when she told you it's over for good?

# 1619 A:

She says, "I don't want to"-yes.

# 1620 Q:

Is that the first time that she told you that that was it; she wasn't going to try to work things out any longer with him.'

# 1621 A:

Yes.

# 1622 Q:

But by that time wasn't she going out with girlfriends and dating and going partying with [Name Deleted] and Ron Goldman?

# 1623 A:

Yes.

# 1624 Q:

But that's not something she was doing earlier, before her trip to Cabo. Right.,

# 1625 A:

Before her trip to Cabo?

# 1626 Q:

Yeah. She wasn't going out with other men?

# 1627 A:

No, she wasn't going-

# 1628 Q:

So her behavior after Cabo changed considerably. Correct?

# 1629 A:

Oh, wait a minute. She was seeing another man around... I'm trying to keep my... February she met somebody.

# 1630 Q:

February of 1994, the year that she died.

# 1631 A:

Yes.

# 1632 Q:

And who did she meet?

# 1633 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 1634 Q:

And who is [Name Deleted]?

# 1635 A:

[Name Deleted] is a friend of [Name Deleted].

# 1636 Q:

Okay. And tell me about this relationship.

# 1637 A:

We met-it was actually February-it was March now, around-

# 1638 Q:

Before Cabo.

# 1639 A:

Yes, before Cabo, because we went shopping. Yeah, March of 1994. Nicole and I were shopping for clothes at Brentwood Gardens, and these two guys kept following us, and one of the guys introduced herself-himself to Nicole, and that was [Name Deleted].

# 1640 Q:

And who was the other person?

# 1641 A:

I don't know.

# 1642 Q:

Was it Ron Goldman?

# 1643 A:

I don't know.

# 1644 Q:

By this time you had never met Ron Goldman. Right?

# 1645 A:

No.

# 1646 Q:

And Nicole hadn't either to you knowledge. Right?

# 1647 A:

No.

# 1648 Q:

And what then happened between Mike Davis and Nicole?

# 1649 A:

Mike-Nicole was very attracted to Michael, and she told me that she liked that guy.

"He's really cute." So that was-and she kind of pursued Michael, but Michael-when Michael found out that she was OJ.'s ex-wife, that's when, you know, she - you know, he stopped-kinda like backed off a little bit, but Nicole still continued pursuing [Name Deleted].

# 1650 Q:

And how old was [Name Deleted]?

# 1651 A:

Michael's 24.

# 1652 Q:

What did he do?

# 1653 A:

He's a trainer.

# 1654 Q:

Where?

# 1655 A:

At The Gym.

# 1656 Q:

That's the name of a health- -The Gym. -club in Brentwood called The Gym.'

# 1657 A:

The Gym.

# 1658 Q:

Okay. And he's a trainer there?

# 1659 A:

Yes.

# 1660 Q:

Did she have a romantic relationship with [Name Deleted]?

# 1661 A:

Yes.

# 1662 Q:

How long did that last?

# 1663 A:

Not really a romantic relationship, but-

# 1664 Q:

They had sex?

# 1665 A:

Is that what you call it, sex, oral sex? I don't know. What do you call it? I don't know.

# 1666 JOHN KELLY:

Push that a little bit, Dan.

# 1667

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1668 Q:

Yeah, I would call oral sex sex, if that's what you're asking me.

# 1669 A:

Okay.

# 1670 Q:

They had oral sex

# 1671 A:

Yes.

# 1672 Q:

--is that what you're telling us?

# 1673 A:

Yes.

# 1674 Q:

Okay. And how do you know that?

# 1675 A:

Because Nicole told me.

# 1676 Q:

They had oral sex on more than one occasion?

# 1677 A:

Yes.

# 1678 Q:

Did she say that that's all they had together?

# 1679 A:

Yes.

# 1680 Q:

Okay. And, now, when Nicole was having this relationship with [Name Deleted], did you ask her what did this mean in terms of her relationship with OJ. Simpson, whether she was growing disenchanted with that relationship, why she was doing this?

# 1681 A:

Well, she said that she was getting old and that she-she says, you know, "Core, when we're 50 years old, nobody's gonna look at. Look at this." You know, she says-I think she was fascinated by young men being attracted to her. You know, she liked that feeling.

# 1682 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Why don't we break here for lunch.

# 1683 CORA FISCHMAN:

Okay.

THEVIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1 of Volume II. The time is approximately 12:16, and we are off the record.

# 1684 (At the hour of 12:16 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:16 p.m.)

# 1685 (At the hour of 1:36 p.m., the deposition of CORA A. FISCHMAN was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present.)

# 1686 (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 161 through 163 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.)

# 1687

EXAMINATION (Resumed)

# 1688

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1689 Q:

I would like to have-or have had marked during the break, I should say, the next exhibit in order, Exhibit 161, which is your deposition in the case against the National Enquirer, and that's the only other document that you have found responsive to our subpoena. Is that correct?

# 1690 A:

Yes.

# 1691 Q:

You don't have the Brooke Skulski pages?

# 1692 A:

No.

# 1693 Q:

Exhibit 162 is a photograph of a key. Do you recognize the key depicted in that photograph?

# 1694 A:

Yes.

# 1695 Q:

Is that-what is it?

# 1696 A:

It's my key.

# 1697 Q:

It's the key that Nicole gave you to her condominium, 875 Bundy?

# 1698 A:

Yes.

# 1699 Q:

Exhibit 163, do you recognize it? It's a photograph of, as you can see, two keys on a key chain.

# 1700 A:

Yes.

# 1701 Q:

What are the keys that you see depicted in Exhibit 163?

# 1702 A:

These are the keys that-what do you call them-the detective showed me.

# 1703 Q:

Are those the keys that Nicole would put under her planter-

# 1704 Q:

-when she would go jogging-

# 1705 A:

Yes.

# 1706 Q:

-when she lived at Bundy?

# 1707 A:

Yes.

# 1708 Q:

You talked about that before. Right? You talked about that earlier today, that she would put the two keys on a key chain in a planter in front on her condominium when you and she would go off running when she lived at Bundy. Right?

# 1709 A:

Yes.

# 1710 Q:

And those are the keys that you see in Exhibit 163. Correct?

# 1711 A:

Yes.

# 1712 Q:

Thank you. These keys were found in OJ. Simpson's possession when he was arrested on June 17. Do you know how they got there?

# 1713 A:

I don't know.

# 1714 Q:

These keys, the ones depicted in Exhibit 163, are the keys that Nicole told you were missing in the last days of her life. Correct?

# 1715 A:

That's the key, then.

# 1716 Q:

Correct?

# 1717 A:

Correct.

# 1718 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you about an incident concerning Mr. Simpson's maid Michelle?

# 1719 A:

Yes.

# 1720 Q:

Relate that incident to us. Excuse me. Tell us what Nicole told you about that incident.

# 1721 A:

She slapped Michelle, and Michelle fell on the floor, because she couldn't stand her.

# 1722 Q:

Who couldn't stand whom?

# 1723 A:

Nicole couldn't find-couldn't stand Michelle.

# 1724 Q:

Nicole told you that she just walked up to Michelle and knocked her down to the floor?

# 1725 A:

Oh, no, no. They had an argument. They had an argument about-at the time they had an argument about the kids wanting to play inside, and Michelle doesn't like the kids inside because the house will get dirty, you know, and they had a heated conversation, and then what Nicole did was slap Michelle, and Michelle fell on the floor.

# 1726 Q:

What happened then?

# 1727 A:

What happened then?

# 1728 Q:

Yes.

# 1729 A:

She called me that day and she said, "Don't tell anybody about this, but," you know, "I just couldn't stand Michelle, and Michelle's a crazy woman, and I just slapped her. I couldn't stand the way she talked to me." And that was it. And then Michelle left-

# 1730 Q:

Because of that incident?

# 1731 A:

Pretty much that incident, too, you know.

# 1732 Q:

And she knew that-Michelle knew that OJ. and Nicole were still seeing each other and that Nicole might move back in the house?

# 1733 A:

Right. See, one of the reasons why Nicole told me she didn't want to move there unless-unless Michelle lives there , because Michelle and Nicole couldn't get along well.

# 1734 Q:

So Nicole wanted Michelle to leave before she moved back?

# 1735 A:

Exactly.

# 1736 Q:

And did you ever talk to OJ. Simpson about this?

# 1737 A:

Yes.

# 1738 Q:

And what did OJ. say?

# 1739 A:

Well, OJ. thought that Nicole was wrong in doing that, because at the time he told me that she doesn't have -"Nicole doesn't have the right to slap Michelle because," he said, you know, "I'm paying this woman, not Nicole. This is my housekeeper, not Nicole's.. So pretty much that's what-

# 1740 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson say to you that he would ask Michelle to leave if Nicole moved back into the house?

# 1741 A:

Well, it kinda worked out that way already because Michelle at that time said, "I'm not gonna work for Mrs. Simpson," you know.

# 1742 Q:

For whom?

# 1743 A:

Mrs. Simpson.

# 1744 Q:

"Mrs. Simpson," meaning Nicole?

# 1745 A:

Yes.

# 1746 Q:

So Michelle, based on your understanding, was anticipating Nicole's moving back into the house?

# 1747 A:

Right, uh-huh.

# 1748 Q:

And OJ. Let her go?

# 1749 A:

Yes.

# 1750 Q:

So OJ. didn't tell her, "Don't leave because Nicole's not moving in." He never said that to her to your knowledge. Right?

# 1751 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 1752 CORA FISCHMAN:

No-

# 1753 PHILIP KRAMER:

Do you have any knowledge one way or the other?

# 1754 CORA FISCHMAN:

If what?

# 1755 PHILIP KRAMER:

Whether this conversation took place between Mr. Simpson and Michelle.

# 1756 CORA FISCHMAN:

Well, no, I don't know that conversation. I'm sorry.

# 1757

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1758 Q:

Who is [Name Deleted]?

# 1759 A:

[Name Deleted] is the bartender of one of the clubs that was very attracted to Nicole, and that's pretty much, you know-as Nicole calls-Nicole called [Name Deleted] the freeloader.

# 1760 Q:

Why?

# 1761 A:

Because every time they went on vacation he was there, and he got everything free.

# 1762 Q:

From whom'

# 1763 A:

All the trips when they went to Cabo, he was there.

# 1764 Q:

Who paid his way?

# 1765 A:

Who paid?

# 1766 Q:

How did he go there for free?

# 1767 A:

Well, when Nicole went to Cabo, I mean everything was paid for, so it was like he was there. I mean, he didn't pay for the hotel or the villa.

# 1768 Q:

You mean he stayed there for free?

# 1769 A:

Exactly.

# 1770 Q:

And he was Nicole's friend?

# 1771 A:

Pretty much, yes.

# 1772 Q:

And how long did Nicole know [Name Deleted]?

# 1773 A:

I don't know.

# 1774 Q:

A year or more?

# 1775 A:

Excuse me?

# 1776 Q:

A year or more?

# 1777 A:

Yes.

# 1778 Q:

And were you friendly with him also?

# 1779 A:

No. I knew of him, but I wasn't friendly.

# 1780 Q:

Okay. Before the break we were talking about [Name Deleted].

# 1781 A:

Yes.

# 1782 Q:

And I had asked you earlier whether Marcus Allen was the only breach of Nicole's understanding with OJ. about being monogamous during the reconciliation period, and you said yes. Then later on you told me about another person with whom she had sex; namely, [Name Deleted].

# 1783 A:

Well, you know, it just-

# 1784 Q:

You didn't remember?

# 1785 A:

I didn't remember, and then as we got along, you know-

# 1786 Q:

Are there any other persons now that you may remember that you didn't tell me about before?

# 1787 A:

That's it.

# 1788 Q:

Is that it?

# 1789 A:

Yes.

# 1790 Q:

Okay. Now, do you know whether

OJ. Simpson knew about Mike Davis?

# 1791 A:

No, he doesn't know about Mike Davis.

# 1792 Q:

Did you ever tell him about it?

# 1793 A:

No.

# 1794 Q:

At any point in time?

# 1795 A:

No.

# 1796 Q:

Up to today?

# 1797 A:

Well, you know, about the book, yes. He asked me about that "Brentwood Hello," so...

# 1798 Q:

Is Mike Davis the person who is mentioned in the book when it discusses the "Brentwood Hello?

# 1799 A:

Yes.

# 1800 Q:

So that occurred in the 1994 time period?

# 1801 A:

Yes.

# 1802 Q:

I see. How do you know that that person in the book in the discussion of the "Brentwood Hello" incident is Mike Davis?

# 1803 A:

Because Nicole told me. And also I- after Nicole-

# 1804 Q:

Nicole called it the "Brentwood Hello"? She used that terminology to you?

# 1805 A:

No. Faye used that. I was just surprised when I read about that in the book.

# 1806 Q:

So how do you know it's the same incident, is what I'm getting to?

# 1807 A:

How come it's the same incident?

# 1808 Q:

How do you know that it is the same incident?

As I understand the reference in the book, there was a person that Nicole didn't even know and just went into this guy's apartment and had oral sex with somebody.

# 1809 A:

Exactly. That's him.

# 1810 Q:

But she knew Mike Davis.

# 1811 A:

She didn't know [Name Deleted]. We just met [Name Deleted] around March.

# 1812 Q:

Yeah?

# 1813 A:

I mean, Nicole didn't just walk into a stranger's house and do the act.

# 1814 Q:

So this was Mike Davis, then. Right?

# 1815 A:

Yes.

# 1816 Q:

Okay. And what happened to stop the Davis relationship? How did that come to an end?

# 1817 A:

There was really no relationship.

# 1818 Q:

Just sex?

# 1819 A:

Yes.

# 1820 Q:

Was it clear in your mind, as of the time of this Mike Davis incident together with the Marcus Allen situation, that Nicole really wasn't going to be getting back together with Mr. Simpson on a permanent basis?

# 1821 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 1822 CORA FISCHMAN:

On a permanent basis?

# 1823

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1824 Q:

Yeah. Was it becoming clear to you that that was not going to happen?

# 1825 A:

I don't know. I can't answer that.

# 1826 Q:

Did she tell you that it was unlikely that she was going to move back in at that point in time?

# 1827 A:

She told me she was not reedy to move back in.

# 1828 Q:

Did she tell you that she had told Mr. Simpson that she wasn't ready?

# 1829 A:

I think she was thinking about mentioning it to him.

# 1830 Q:

And do you know when she first told him/

# 1831 A:

I think when she returned the bracelet, that's when she told OJ.

# 1832 Q:

I am going to be asking you some questions from the statement that you have made to Michael Viner and the people from the National Enquirer that was recorded on tape.

# 1833 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1834 Q:

You've already told us everything that you said was true to the best of your knowledge, but I want to follow up on a couple of specific topics.

Do you have a copy of this?

# 1835 ROBERT BAKER:

I do.

# 1836 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I am going to be - the page references that I will mention will be to the District Attorney's transcription of that interview. Okay?

# 1837 Q:

On page 2, you say, referring to OJ. Simpson:

...this guy did everything. He kept on saying he's 47 years old and don't wanna have another family, he just wanted to be with Nicole."

# 1838 A:

Wanted-yes.

# 1839 Q:

And that's what OJ. Simpson told you?

# 1840 A:

Yes.

# 1841 Q:

Okay. When did he tell you that?

# 1842 A:

During one of our conversations, you know.

# 1843 Q:

Told you that more than once?

# 1844 A:

I would say yes.

# 1845 Q:

Okay. You also on page 3 of the transcript, you mention that Nicole told you she lost her self-worth and identity.

Is that something Nicole told you?

# 1846 A:

We talked about it. We talked about it, how you lose your identity being with this powerful men. It's sort of like we became a shadow of our husbands.

# 1847 Q:

And that's how Nicole told you she felt?

# 1848 A:

Yes. \When she was living with and married to OJ. Simpson and she had felt that she had lost her self worth and identity?

# 1849 A:

Well, I didn't say-we-

# 1850 Q:

Is that-

# 1851 A:

We talked about it.

# 1852 Q:

And that's what she told you, that that's how she felt.

# 1853 A:

Yes.

# 1854 Q:

You indicate at page 5 of this transcript that:

"...Nicole had a lot of friends. She thought she had a lot of friends. When she moved out all of them disappeared, they all went to OJ." You are talking about the time when Nicole got divorced from OJ. Correct?

# 1855 A:

Yes.

# 1856 Q:

And who were the friends that left?

# 1857 A:

That didn't stop talking? Well, like Linda Schulman, she was very friendly with Linda Schulman, and she was hurt by the breakup of that relationship, and, you know, a few people. I mean, I don't know the other friends.

# 1858 Q:

Linda Schulman is one of the people you had in mind?

# 1859 A:

Yeah. Yeah.

# 1860 Q:

And anybody else who abandoned Nicole and went to OJ. when Nicole and OJ. split up?

# 1861 A:

Well, you know, they had a lot of friends, but she kept on mentioning about, "Most of my friends who I thought were my friends all went to OJ."

# 1862 Q:

Can you name any of them besides Linda Schulman?

# 1863 A:

I can only name Linda Schulman because she's the only one I knew.

# 1864 Q:

At page 6 you state that when Nicole was-after she and OJ. separated and were divorced:

"...I know OJ. wanted to know more about Nicole, whatever Nicole was doing with me because he knew I was out...with her" That's true, that OJ. would waft to find out from you what Nicole was doing. Right?

# 1865 A:

Yes.

# 1866 Q:

Okay. You say on page 7 that when Nicole, again, got divorced:

"...nobody supported her, even her family. The family didn't talk to her, nobody was there for her, and she felt really bad about it." Is that what she told you?

# 1867 A:

Yes.

# 1868 Q:

Now we are back in the May and June of 1994 time frame, right before Nicole's death. We're talking about this IRS letter and-

# 1869 ROBERT BAKER:

What page?

# 1870 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Page 17.

# 1871

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1872 Q:

-and you say:

"I think part of the reason why OJ. was so upset with Nicole was OJ called Nicole ...- Nicole called _ OJ. and said, 'How dare you buy my...friends? How come you're buying my friends?' -

"The reason why she said that was because...OJ. wrote a check to...Christian for five thousand and something."

# 1873 A:

Yeah.

# 1874 Q:

Okay. Is that what Nicole told you?

# 1875 A:

Yes.

# 1876 Q:

And did OJ. also tell you that?

# 1877 A:

No.

# 1878 Q:

Did you have a conversation with OJ. about this?

# 1879 ROBERT BAKER:

Which part?

# 1880

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1881 Q:

About the part that Nicole was so upset with him and he was upset with her because-

# 1882 A:

Oh, yes, OJ. told me about that.

# 1883 Q:

Okay. Now relate that conversation to me.

# 1884 A:

Well, he told me that the 5,000 was- they were doing a business, and Faye also told me this, that they were doing a business venture about some pills or whatever, vitamins or whatever. I don't remember. Or jet lag pill, something like that, and that was the $5,000.

# 1885 Q:

But OJ. Simpson told you that he was very upset with Nicole at this point in time. Right?

# 1886 A:

Yes, because he said, you know, "Why does she think I'm buying her friends? I'm not buying her friends. Faye was the one who invited herself to go to that sports spectacular."

# 1887 Q:

And OJ. told you that Nicole had called him up and was screaming at him about this. Right?

# 1888 A:

Yes. And he thought that she was being unfair.

# 1889 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 1890 CORA FISCHMAN:

Who's being unfair?

# 1891

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1892 Q:

OJ. told you that he didn't think Nicole was being "fair with him. Correct?

# 1893 A:

Being fair with him'

# 1894 Q:

Yeah.

# 1895 A:

Yes.

# 1896 Q:

He didn't think it was his fault, in other words. Right?

# 1897 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 1898 CORA FISCHMAN:

I'm sorry. I'm lost.

# 1899

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1900 Q:

OJ. told you that he didn't do anything wrong; nothing was his fault; Nicole had no right to be upset with him.

# 1901 A:

Right.

# 1902 Q:

That's the substance of what he told you Correct?

# 1903 A:

Correct.

# 1904 Q:

And you say at page 19 on the same subject, "And so she," referring to Nicole, "called OJ. and said to OJ., 'How dare you buy-you buy everything. You took my friends away, took my family,'" blank, "important in her life," I guess meaning everything important in her life.

Is that what Nicole told you?

# 1905 A:

Pretty much, yes.

# 1906 Q:

On page 20, referring to the recital, you indicate that your husband, Ron Fischman, talked to OJ. Simpson at the recital.

# 1907 A:

Yes.

# 1908 Q:

What did Ron tell you that he said to your husband-to OJ. Simpson at the recital?

# 1909 A:

What they talked about is - when I said they talked, is they talked because they were gonna have pictures taken, but other than that, I don't know what they talked about, so...

# 1910 Q:

On page 24. On page 24 of your transcript, you are talking about Nicole's feelings concerning the beating in 1989.

# 1911 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1912 Q:

And you say: "...that was the only one that I know, 'cause she really never talked about it, she felt embarrassed, she felt that nobody should know about these things." Is that what Nicole told you?

# 1913 A:

She told me she was embarrassed, yeah, with that '89 incident.

# 1914 Q:

And she told you that she felt that nobody should know about these things?

# 1915 A:

She felt funny, yes.

# 1916 Q:

She felt ashamed?

# 1917 A:

Kinda felt funny because she felt that it was her fault.

# 1918 Q:

Okay. Did she tell you that this was the sort of thing she was not comfortable telling people; this was private?

# 1919 A:

Yes.

# 1920 Q:

Did she tell you she was ashamed of the incident?

# 1921 A:

No. She said she was just embarrassed.

# 1922 Q:

Embarrassed?

# 1923 A:

Yeah.

# 1924 Q:

Okay. Page25. You're talking about the Gretna Green incident in October of 1993.

# 1925 PHILIP KRAMER:

Do you know the incident to which he is referring?

# 1926 CORA FISCHMAN:

The 911?

# 1927

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1928 Q:

Yeah.

# 1929 PHILIP KRAMER:

Okay.

# 1930

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1931 Q:

"See what happened"-this is you talking:

"See, what happened is Nicole is so afraid of OJ.'s voice. OJ. when...he's upset, I mean, he is really -he's got a very bad temper. And, in fact, Nicole said to OJ., 'If you really went this marriage to work out you're gonna have to go to therapy to control your anger.' And OJ. said, 'Yeah, I'm going to. I'm working on it, I'm working on it."'

# 1932 A:

That's what Nicole told me, yes. Nicole told me that.

# 1933 Q:

And did you talk to OJ. about that?

# 1934 A:

No.

Q; When you said, "And OJ. said, 'Yeah, I'm going to. I'm working on it, I'm working on it.'"

# 1935 A:

That's what Nicole told me.

# 1936 Q:

That OJ. said?

# 1937 A:

That was their conversation, yeah.

# 1938 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay. Page 27.

# 1939 Q:

Concerning the reason for the beating on New Year's Eve 1989, you mentioned on page 27 of this transcript that the reason why that happened was because of a "pair of earrings."

# 1940 A:

Right.

# 1941 Q:

Can you tell us what Nicole told you about that incident?

# 1942 A:

She sew those pair of earrings and she thought it was hers, and then when she asked OJ. or something like that, she found out it wasn't really hers, but it was for another woman.

# 1943 Q:

Named?

# 1944 A:

I don't know.

# 1945 Q:

Tawny Kitaen?

# 1946 A:

She didn't mention.

# 1947 Q:

Okay. If you told Michael Viner and the National Enquirer that it was Tawny Kitaen, would that be accurate?

# 1948 A:

Well, at the time they were mentioning Tawny Kitaen, so I would assume, but I'm not sure.

# 1949 Q:

Okay. Page 28. You were talking here about OJ. Simpson's statement in his suicide letter that he was a battered spouse, and you were asked about that, and you said:

"Because Nicole didn't know what to do. First, she'd want to go back to the rely on --that she wanted to go back to the relationship. Then she would say...I mean, like they went to -we went to Super Bowl. She said, 'Oh, I have to be nice now to OJ. or else, you know, we won't go. I mean, you know, for you I'll be nice because we're all going to the Super Bowl.' Things like that." Is that what Nicole told you?

# 1950 A:

Well, on our run we kid around. I mean, she said, "I'd better be nice to him," you know, because she'd never been to a Super Bowl. Yeah, she mentioned that. It's all there.

# 1951 JOHN KELLY:

I'm sorry. I couldn't hear that.

# 1952 CORA FISCHMAN:

I said it's all there, I said.

# 1953

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1954 Q:

Talking about Nicole's not willing to make a commitment to OJ. Simpson, on page 30, talking about Nicole going through a phase, and Nicole says, "You know, Cora, well, I'm just going through a phase in my life." And now you continue: "And I remember OJ. used to say, 'Oh, Nicole, you're going '- 'you're gonna go through this, I wonder-'he says, 'I don't know if I can go through when you turn 40, you know: ... He'd kid around. He says, 'You're only 35, and look what happened, you don't even wanna be with me 'cause I'm old:"

# 1955 A:

Yeah, it's true.

# 1956 Q:

Is that what OJ. told you?

# 1957 A:

No. That was the conversation- I was there when we used to kid around about our age and stuff, yeah.

# 1958 Q:

What I want to know is whether you-

# 1959 A:

No. Nicole told me that.

# 1960 Q:

OJ. Simpson told you none of that?

# 1961 A:

No. See, he didn't tell me, but that was like the-when we were together, that was the conversatioin.

# 1962 Q:

When you were together with whom'

# 1963 A:

With OJ. and Nicole.

# 1964 Q:

And you would hear OJ.-

# 1965 A:

Yes.

# 1966 Q:

-say, "Oh, Nicole you're gonna go through this. I don't know if I can go through when you turn 40"?

# 1967 A:

Yes.

# 1968 Q:

Okay. "You're only 35 and look what happened. You don't even wanna be with me because I'm old."

# 1969 A:

Exactly.

# 1970 Q:

Those are statements that OJ. made in your presence to Nicole.

# 1971 A:

Right.

# 1972 Q:

Okay. Now, later on on the same page, page 30, you say:

"I felt like he," referring to OJ. Simpson, "was abused too is because she kind of destroyed him to a point where like she really is saying, 'How dare you. You're too old, you know, I don't wanna be with you anymore. You know, you're no fun to be with:"

# 1973 A:

Yeah, Nicole said that.

# 1974 Q:

And then you quote OJ. as saying: "Hey, listen, I'm 47-okay, my knees start cracking, okay, but I've worked hard, I used to (blank) you know, when I was 29 I was...all tight."

# 1975 A:

Yes.

# 1976 Q:

OJ. used to say that?

# 1977 A:

Yes.

# 1978 Q:

In your presence?

# 1979 A:

Yeah, we had that conversation.

# 1980 Q:

On page 33 you're referring to a big fight that you had with Nicole about I guess Marcus Allen.

# 1981 A:

Right.

# 1982 Q:

And you state, beginning at line 13: "...well, what happened was...I confirmed to OJ. that I knew it. And 'cause-and OJ. didn't like the fact that, uh, people knew about the affair because OJ. thought that it was just him and Nicole who knew about the affair. It turned out we knew.

"And I said, "Well, don't worry about that, you know, I won't say anything: "Nicole confronted me on that one and I didn't like it the way she confronted me. And I said, 'Listen (blank) "But that was it. It wasn't, you know, a major fight

"And Nicole is tough. I mean, she can scream. Well, she has also a bad temper."

# 1983 Q:

When did that occur?

# 1984 A:

That was when Nicole told OJ. about her relationship with Marcus Allen.

# 1985 Q:

When they began to reconcile?

# 1986 A:

Exactly.

# 1987 Q:

And then OJ. Simpson called you up and got upset with you because you knew or-You said you-

# 1988 A:

No. -confirmed to OJ.-

# 1989 A:

No.

# 1990 Q:

-that you knew. That's what you said here.

# 1991 A:

During one of our conversation he did ask me-

# 1992 Q:

Who?

# 1993 A:

OJ.

# 1994 Q:

What did he ask you?

# 1995 A:

Oh, no, you know what? I know what happened there. I was upset because Nicole got mad at Ron at the time-

# 1996 Q:

Ron who?

# 1997 A:

Ron Fischman, because OJ. spoke to Ron about their reconcilliation, and when OJ. mentioned about Marcus Allen, Ron did not confirm or deny. And what happened was Nicole got upset that Ron knew about the Marcus Allen, and so Nicole confronted me. She says, "Why"-you know, "Why did you tell Ron," or, "Why did Ron tell Marcus Allen"-

# 1998 Q:

Why did Ron tell who?

# 1999 A:

"Why did Ron tell OJ?" And that was pretty much the gist of the conversation.

# 2000 Q:

And did you talk to OJ. Simpson about-

# 2001 A:

No.

# 2002 Q:

-the fact that you knew?

# 2003 A:

No, I don't think so.

# 2004 Q:

So you said in the transcript, "I confirmed to OJ. that I knew it.

# 2005 A:

Must be. I don't know. I don't remember.

# 2006 Q:

Can you recall anything about that conversatioin with OJ. Simpson?

# 2007 A:

I must have told him. I don't know. I'm pretty sure.

# 2008 Q:

And did he tell you that he was upset with you that you knew?

# 2009 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 2010 CORA FISCHMAN:

No, he was not upset with me. Nicole was upset with me.

# 2011

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2012 Q:

Was Mr. Simpson upset with Nicole that you knew?

# 2013 A:

Yes, I think so.

# 2014 Q:

And did he tell you-

# 2015 A:

That other people knew about their affair.

# 2016 Q:

Mr. Simpson told you he was upset because other people knew about the affair?

# 2017 A:

No. Nicole was upset with me, not OJ. Nicole was upset with me.

# 2018 Q:

But I am trying to find out what OJ. Simpson said to you about this. Okay? When you spoke to him about this, did he tell you that he was upset that other people knew?

# 2019 A:

No. Nicole told me that.

# 2020 Q:

Told you what?

# 2021 A:

That OJ. was upset with her that other people knew about the affair. Okay. And did you confirm that when you spoke to OJ. Simpson about this?

# 2022 A:

I don't remember. You know, that's pretty much...

# 2023 Q:

You don't remember?

# 2024 A:

Yeah.

# 2025 Q:

At page 36 you're talking about the early years of Mr. Simpson's relationship with Nicole, and you said in the interview with Mr. Viner, "And I remember OJ. used to say, 'I remember when Nicole was 17, I molded her.'" That's what OJ. Simpson told you. Right?

# 2026 A:

No.

# 2027 Q:

No?

# 2028 A:

That's not what OJ. Simpson said.

# 2029 Q:

That's what you said here.

# 2030 A:

That's what Ron used to tell me. "I molded you. " So I must have used that term to-

# 2031 Q:

You deny that?

# 2032 A:

Yes, I deny-

# 2033 Q:

You deny that OJ. Simpson told you that "I remember when Nicole was 17, I molded her"?

# 2034 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative and asked and answered.

# 2035 CORA FISCHMAN:

That's not true. I'm referring to myself in that one.

# 2036

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2037 Q:

What do you mean, you are referring to yourself?

# 2038 A:

Ron and I used to kid around about how-you know, Ron used to kid around with me. He says, "I molded you," so I must have used the word molded" with that, yeah, but Nicole was 17 when-

# 2039 Q:

Well, did OJ. Simpson tell you, "I remember when Nicole was 17, I molded her"?

# 2040 A:

No, that's not true, so I will deny that.

# 2041 Q:

Let me read on. Line 15:

# 2042 A:

Yeah, she screamed at me in that. She got mad at me and-yeah, that's true. "And I actually blame OJ. for this. I spoke to OJ. at some point and said, 'You know, it's actually your fault, you molded this woman (blank) you know. You exposed her to this lifestyle."'

# 2043 A:

Yes, I must have mentioned that to OJ., yes.

# 2044 Q:

So that is true, then.

# 2045 ROBERT BAKER:

What's true?

# 2046

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2047 Q:

That you had this conversation with OJ. about OJ. molding Nicole.

# 2048 A:

OJ. did not tell me that he molded Nicole. I'm-I used that word "molded." Know what I'm saying?

# 2049 Q:

No, I don't. Right in here you told Mr. Viner that OJ. Simpson said, "I remember when Nicole was 17, I molded her," and you're now denying that OJ. Simpson said that?

# 2050 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 2051 CORA FISCHMAN:

I already told you that word "molded" came from Ron, and I always talk about how he molded me because I met Ron when I was young, so-but OJ. never told me about that. Yes, OJ. told me that he met Nicole when he was 17, how she looked so pretty and she was 17 and didn't know anything. Yes, so I must have used the word "molded" from that, but OJ. didn't tell me that.

# 2052

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2053 Q:

So you made all that up in here?

# 2054 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 2055

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2056 Q:

You made this all up? This whole paragraph is invented by you?

# 2057 A:

I don't think that's invented, but the gist of the situation is there. I mean-you know.

# 2058 Q:

No, I don't understand why it's there. Explain it to me.

# 2059 ROBERT BAKER:

Well, that's not a question. It doesn't matter if you understand anything.

# 2060 PHILIP KRAMER:

Do you understand the question?

# 2061

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2062 Q:

Here, why don't you read what you said. Okay? I would just like you to confirm that what-that that is true.

# 2063 PHILIP KRAMER:

From what line to what line would you like her to read?

# 2064 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

13.

# 2065 PHILIP KRAMER:

From line 13 on page 36.

# 2066 CORA FISCHMAN:

OJ. didn't say that.

# 2067

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2068 Q:

Read on.

# 2069 PHILIP KRAMER:

Well, read it. Why don't you just take a moment and read from line 13 down.

# 2070 (Witness reviews document.)

# 2071 PHILIP KRAMER:

Okay? You read it?

# 2072 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 2073

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2074 Q:

So is it true what you said in the interview as reported here?

# 2075 ROBERT BAKER:

What's true?

# 2076 CORA FISCHMAN:

I didn't use the word "molded " I mean, no, OJ. didn't say -use the word "molded," no.

# 2077

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2078 Q:

And so you never blamed OJ. You never said, "you know, it's...your fault, you molded this woman." You never said that?"

# 2079 A:

Probably said that because I was mad. I don't know. But I never used the word "molded," that he molded -I used the word "molded," but OJ. did not say that, "I molded."

# 2080 Q:

So OJ.-what-

# 2081 A:

Must have used another word, but

# 2082 Q:

What you said here is false, then. Right?

# 2083 A:

Then we'll say false.

# 2084 Q:

So that was false. Okay? And also false is that you blamed OJ., said, "It's...your fault, you molded this woman." That's also false?

# 2085 A:

See, I remember I made that statement to him, so I remember that.

# 2086 Q:

You made what statement to him?

# 2087 A:

That I said, you know, "You molded Nicole for who she was."

# 2088 Q:

And what did he say in response to that?

# 2089 A:

I don't remember.

# 2090 Q:

Did he agree or disagree?

# 2091 A:

I think that that was a conversation that I had with him when he was in jail, so if he did that-if he-I didn't see his reaction, so...

# 2092 Q:

Why not? You were on the phone?

# 2093 A:

Over the phone, yeah.

# 2094 Q:

Did he disagree or agree with your statement?

# 2095 ROBERT BAKER:

You've asked her that twice now.

# 2096 CORA FISCHMAN:

He didn't-I didn't see his reaction.

# 2097

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2098 Q:

Well, what did he say?

# 2099 A:

He didn't disagree, so I don't know. There was silence.

# 2100 Q:

Okay. So he didn't say to you, "No, that's wrong. That's false. That's untrue. I never molded her"?

# 2101 A:

No, he didn't say anything like that.

# 2102 Q:

Okay. And why did you think that he had molded Nicole?

# 2103 A:

Because I felt that-well, this is what I feel about the whole thing: Like she was young and-you know, she was 17, and then she led a life with OJ.

# 2104 Q:

And did you also tell OJ., "You made her exactly like you"?

# 2105 A:

I must have told-yeah, I must have told him that.

# 2106 Q:

And that's what you believed. Right?

# 2107 A:

I felt at that time, yeah, exactly.

# 2108 Q:

Have you ever spoken to Sydney Simpson about her-about the evening of June 12?

# 2109 A:

The evening of June 12?

# 2110 Q:

Yes.

# 2111 PHILIP KRAMER:

Which day of the week was June 12?

# 2112

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2113 Q:

The evening of June 12 when her mother was killed, did you speak to her about what she heard and whether her mom had received any phone calls?

# 2114 A:

No.

# 2115 Q:

Never spoken to her about that?

# 2116 A:

No.

# 2117 Q:

Or do you know if Mr. Simpson has?

# 2118 A:

I don't know.

# 2119 Q:

Did you ever ask him.

# 2120 A:

No.

# 2121 Q:

Did you ever ask him, "Have you spoken to Sydney and what did she hear?"

# 2122 A:

No.

# 2123 Q:

Did you ever speak to Justin about that?

# 2124 A:

No.

# 2125 Q:

Do you know whether Mr. Simpson has?

# 2126 A:

I don't know.

# 2127 Q:

Have you ever asked him?

# 2128 A:

No.

# 2129 Q:

Did you know that there was a knife found on Nicole's counter that evening?

# 2130 A:

I don't know.

# 2131 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 2132

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2133 Q:

Excuse me.

# 2134 A:

I don't know.

# 2135 Q:

Did you ever ask Mr. Simpson about that knife?

# 2136 A:

I don't know.

# 2137 Q:

Did you ever see Mr. Simpson's video?

# 2138 A:

What video?

# 2139 Q:

You know, the video that he has been selling for money to try to convince people that he's innocent.

# 2140 A:

No.

# 2141 ROBERT BAKER:

Oh, that was a beautiful question.

# 2142 CORA FISCHMAN:

No.

# 2143

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2144 Q:

You've never seen that video?

# 2145 A:

No.

# 2146 Q:

Now, yesterday you were explaining to us why OJ. Simpson was innocent: Because things didn't match. You know, there's no-

# 2147 A:

Yeah.

# 2148 Q:

-blood on the carpet-

# 2149 A:

Yeah.

# 2150 Q:

-and things like this. Do you remember that?

# 2151 A:

Yes.

# 2152 Q:

What about the fact that there was OJ. Simpson's blood found at Nicole's condo?

# 2153 ROBERT BAKER:

What's the question?

# 2154

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2155 Q:

Do you have an explanation for that?

# 2156 A:

No.

# 2157 Q:

Do you know of any reason why that blood was found there?

# 2158 A:

Well, I felt there was a vial missing. Wasn't there? See, I didn't follow because I was not allowed to watch the whole thing.

# 2159 Q:

Well, you said yesterday that OJ. Simpson's innocent because the evidence is just not there.

# 2160 A:

The evidence, it was enormous.

# 2161 Q:

What evidence was enormous?

# 2162 A:

It was just-it was just too much. It was like-feel like somebody just framed him, somebody just-

# 2163 Q:

Oh, you mean the evidence of his guilt was enormous.

# 2164 A:

Right. Like all this evidences were out there. It was just-

# 2165 Q:

So you mean the evidence of his guilt was so enormous that in your mind it created a suspicion that he was being framed. Is that what you're saying?

# 2166 A:

Yes.

# 2167 Q:

I see. And the enormous evidence of guilt would include such things as his blood found at the crime scene. Right?

# 2168 ROBERT BAKER:

This is irrelevant-

# 2169 CORA FISCHMAN:

The evidence of guilt?

# 2170 ROBERT BAKER:

-and you are doing this-

# 2171

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2172 Q:

Excuse me?

# 2173 ROBERT BAKER:

-totally for television shows, Mr. Petrocelli, and you know it.

# 2174 MICHAEL BREWER:

Leave out-

# 2175 JOHN KELLY:

What show?

# 2176 ROBERT BAKER:

Whatever he's going to appear on next.

# 2177 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

That's uncalled for.

# 2178 PHILIP KRAMER:

Do you have the question in mind?

# 2179 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I am probing her bias, and she thinks Mr. Simpson's innocent in the face of, as she has just indicated, "enormous" evidence of his guilt

# 2180 Q:

And I would like to know why you have what appears to me-

# 2181 A:

You know what-

# 2182 Q:

-to be a totally irrational viewpoint.

# 2183 ROBERT BAKER:

Oh, is that right? Mr. Petrocelli, you are not the judge or the jury, although you'd like to be 13 people at the same time.

# 2184 PHILIP KRAMER:

Let the lawyers have their barbed exchange-

# 2185 CORA FISCHMAN:

Okay

# 2186 PHILIP KRAMER:

-and then I want to make sure you have the question in mind. I want you to think about it, and then everybody in this room is entitled to your answer.

# 2187 CORA FISCHMAN:

Okay.

# 2188

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2189 Q:

Well, let me ask you this question: What evidence do you have that Mr. Simpson was framed?

# 2190 ROBERT BAKER:

She currently maintains.

# 2191 CORA FISCHMAN:

The gloves, the socks; the-you know, the three blood stains on the driveway, why was it on Ashford side as opposed to Rockingham side.

# 2192

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2193 Q:

Why was what on Ashford?

# 2194 A:

The bloodstain was on Ashford side, not on Rockingham side. Why were no blood stains on the carpet going to his bedroom if he came with bloody socks, so...

# 2195 Q:

Okay. Have you discussed these ideas with Mr. Simpson?

# 2196 A:

No.

# 2197 Q:

At no time?

# 2198 A:

I talked to him about it, yeah. I have doubts about-these are things that entered my mind.

# 2199 Q:

And have you ever discussed them with Mr. Simpson, these doubts that you have with the evidence?

# 2200 A:

We don't talk about those things, though.

# 2201 Q:

Not once have you ever spoken to him about this?

# 2202 A:

No.

# 2203 Q:

Not once?

# 2204 A:

No.

# 2205 Q:

Okay. Never asked him about the glove and how it got there and the socks and how it got there-

# 2206 (Shakes head.)

# 2207 Q:

-and never asked him about the blood?

# 2208 A:

No.

# 2209 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered and harassing

# 2210

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2211 Q:

Never asked him, "Was that your blood at Bundy? Did you bleed there that night?"

# 2212 A:

No.

# 2213 Q:

Did you ever ask him that?

# 2214 A:

No.

# 2215 Q:

You're not really interested in finding out if he's responsible for these deaths. Correct?

# 2216 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 2217 CORA FISCHMAN:

Not what?

# 2218

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2219 Q:

You are not really interested in knowing the truth, are you?

# 2220 ROBERT BAKER:

What?

# 2221 CORA FISCHMAN:

Am I not interested?

# 2222

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2223 Q:

Yes. You're not really interested in finding out the truth. You just want to believe that he's innocent. Correct?

# 2224 PHILIP KRAMER:

Stop, think about the question and answer the question.

# 2225 ROBERT BAKER:

Could you have it read back so that she can hear that question?

# 2226 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yeah.

# 2227 Q:

You are looking at me as though you don't understand my questions. Are they unclear?

# 2228 A:

Well, you asked me a lot of questions, so you're trying to...

# 2229 Q:

Let me tell you why I asked the question, and I would like to get an answer.

# 2230 A:

Yeah.

# 2231 Q:

You tell me that the evidence of his guilt is "enormous." You tell me that it's so enormous that it leads you to suspect that he's being framed, and then you pointed out some of the examples of the evidence that you think was put there to frame him-

# 2232 A:

Yes.

# 2233 Q:

-and yet you tell me you never once have asked him about any of this evidence? Is that your testimony?

# 2234 A:

Yes, I have not asked him, yes.

# 2235 Q:

Okay. And I asked you, are you really interested in knowing the truth about whether Mr. Simpson killed your very best friend, Nicole?

# 2236 A:

I would like to know who really killed Nicole. Of course I do.

# 2237 Q:

But you don't think it's OJ. Simpson.

# 2238 A:

Well, he was-to me there were a lot of-to me there was a lot of people that-I mean, others who could have done it. That's how I saw this whole thing.

# 2239 Q:

Could have?

# 2240 A:

Yes.

# 2241 Q:

And who are those others?

# 2242 A:

I don't know, but Nicole at that time for

the last six weeks led a very dangerous life.

# 2243 Q:

Okay. And who are the other suspects?

# 2244 A:

I don't know.

# 2245 Q:

Well, name them. You said there were others. Name them. Give me their names.

# 2246 ROBERT BAKER:

Don't speculate.

# 2247 CORA FISCHMAN:

I can't name them. BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2248 Q:

Why not?

# 2249 A:

They were doing drugs. They were doing cocaine. I mean, not drugs, but Faye was doing cocaine. And they were going out a lot. They were bar-hopping, they were going to different clubs, so at that time I didn't know what they were doing.

# 2250 Q:

So you think one of-somebody that Nicole met during this time frame murdered her?

# 2251 A:

I don't know. I mean-you know.

# 2252 Q:

But you never asked Mr. Simpson

# 2253 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered eight times.

# 2254

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2255 Q:

-why his blood is found at the crime scene.

# 2256 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 2257 CORA FISCHMAN:

I have not asked anything.

# 2258

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2259 Q:

You never asked him why Nicole's blood is found in his car. Never asked him that either?

# 2260 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 2261 (Shakes head.)

# 2262

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2263 Q:

Excuse me?

# 2264 A:

No, I didn't ask.

# 2265 Q:

Did you ever a him why Ron Goldman's blood is found in OJ.'s car? Did you ever ask him that question?

# 2266 A:

Was it? I don't know.

# 2267 Q:

You didn't know that?

# 2268 A:

No. I never followed the case, so I'm sorry.

# 2269 ROBERT BAKER:

Don't apologize to him.

# 2270

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2271 Q:

Do you-did Mr. Simpson or anyone else ever give you any information to the effect that this glove was planted, this bloody glove? Anyone ever tell you anything about that?

# 2272 A:

No.

# 2273 Q:

Or that the sock was planted?

# 2274 A:

No.

# 2275 Q:

Do you have any information at all that any of these items of evidence were planted or manufactured?

# 2276 A:

Any evidence?

# 2277 Q:

Yeah.

# 2278 PHILIP KRAMER:

You're talking about other than what she might-

# 2279 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Other than her own speculation and surmise.

# 2280 CORA FISCHMAN:

This is my own speculation.

# 2281

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2282 Q:

No one ever told you-

# 2283 A:

-that somebody confirmed it? No.

# 2284 Q:

Or given you any information on it.

# 2285 A:

No, no one.

# 2286 Q:

Okay. Now, after Nicole's death did you have any conversations with Kato Kaelin?

# 2287 A:

Yes.

# 2288 Q:

And what was the purpose of those conversations?

# 2289 A:

At that time we were trying to commiserate, so at the time I didn't have a friend and-that I could trust, and I thought that we could trust each other, and just trying to figure out what really happened. That's all.

# 2290 Q:

Did you tell Kato Kaelin that you believed that OJ. killed Nicole?

# 2291 A:

I didn't say that.

# 2292 Q:

You deny saying that?

# 2293 A:

Yes.

# 2294 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 2295

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2296 Q:

Excuse me?

# 2297 A:

Yes.

# 2298 Q:

So if Mr. Kaelin testified that you said that, he would not be telling the truth?

# 2299 A:

Yes.

# 2300 Q:

Okay. Did you meet with Mr. Kaelin's attorney, Michael Plotkin?

# 2301 A:

Yes.

# 2302 Q:

And what was the reason for that?

# 2303 A:

At the time Kato said if I needed a lawyer, that he would help me, and that's pretty much why I met Michael Plotkin. Oh, no. It's because of the National Enquirer. That's true, yeah.

# 2304 Q:

Did you ask him for some legal advice?

# 2305 A:

Exactly, right.

# 2306 Q:

But you never hired him. Right?

# 2307 A:

No.

# 2308 Q:

Okay. You told Kato Kaelin that Marcus-that Nicole was seeing Marcus Allen again in 1994. Correct?

# 2309 A:

1994?

# 2310 (Nods head.)

# 2311 ROBERT BAKER:

He is asking if you told Kaelin that.

# 2312

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2313 Q:

You told that to Kato.

# 2314 A:

I must have, yeah.

# 2315 Q:

And during these conversations with Kato Kaelin, you also told him that Nicole had ended her relationship with Mr. Simpson sometime in May of 1994, having reached that decision while in Cabo San Lucas. Correct?

# 2316 A:

What Nicole-yeah, I told him Nicole was thinking about, yeah.

# 2317 Q:

That's what you told Kato Kaelin. Correct?

# 2318 PHILIP KRAMER:

Do you understand the distinction? He is now asking- he is asking you to confirm-

# 2319 CORA FISCHMAN:

Kato's?

# 2320 PHILIP KRAMER:

-whether or not you made these statements to Kato.

# 2321 CORA FISCHMAN:

I must have. I don't know. See, these were-you know, we were just conversing, so I don't know.

# 2322

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2323 Q:

Well, that's what I'm asking.

# 2324 A:

Okay.

# 2325 Q:

You made that statement to Kato Kaelin. Correct?

# 2326 A:

Must have, yes.

# 2327 Q:

Okay.

# 2328 PHILIP KRAMER:

Why do you say you "must have"?

# 2329 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Please don't. You can ask her questions when it's your turn. Okay?

# 2330 PHILIP KRAMER:

I really don't want to. That's fine.

# 2331 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay. Thank you.

# 2332 Q:

You told Kato Kaelin that Nicole and Ron Goldman had seen each other a couple times. Correct?

# 2333 A:

I'm sorry. Could you repeat that, please?

# 2334 Q:

You told Kato Kaelin that Nicole and Ron Goldman had seen each other several times. Correct?

# 2335 A:

Several times?

# 2336 Q:

Some times. Words to that effect. Is that right?

# 2337 A:

What do you mean, "Sometimes?" How many times? I don't

# 2338 Q:

Did you tell that to Kato Kaelin?

# 2339 A:

I don't remember.

# 2340 Q:

Well, can you please think?

# 2341 ROBERT BAKER:

That's argumentative.

# 2342

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2343 Q:

Did you tell Kato Kaelin that Nicole and Ron had seen each other?

# 2344 A:

Yes.

# 2345 Q:

Okay. And that Ron Goldman had driven Nicole's car?

# 2346 A:

Yes.

# 2347 Q:

And that the two were not dating?

# 2348 A:

Yes.

# 2349 Q:

Okay. And you told Kato Kaelin that Nicole had-that you had learned that Nicole had planned to have Goldman come over that evening that she was murdered.

# 2350 A:

Did I tell-

# 2351 Q:

You told Kato Kaelin that yon had learned that Nicole was planning to have Goldman come over that evening.

# 2352 A:

Yes.

# 2353 Q:

You told Kato Kaelin that Nicole returned an expensive bracelet to OJ. Simpson.

# 2354 A:

Yes.

# 2355 Q:

And you told Kato Kaelin that Nicole told

OJ. that he could not buy her with the bracelet.

# 2356 A:

Yes.

# 2357 Q:

You told Kato Kaelin that OJ. Simpson planned the IRS letter to get Nicole into trouble financially and to cause her to have no money.

# 2358 A:

I must have, yes, right.

# 2359 Q:

And you learned that from Nicole. Correct?

# 2360 A:

Yes.

# 2361 Q:

You had run into Kato Kaelin once or twice at a market in Brentwood and while jogging. Correct?

# 2362 A:

Yes.

# 2363 Q:

And you also talked one day at a coffee shop in Beverly Hills called Michel Richard?

# 2364 A:

Michel Richard? Yes. Yes.

# 2365 Q:

You told-Withdrawn. At the wake did you pound on Mr. Simpson's chest at all?

# 2366 A:

Yes.

# 2367 Q:

And did you say, "Why, why, why, why did you do it?"

# 2368 A:

No, because that's wrong.

# 2369 Q:

You say it's "wrong." Right?

# 2370 A:

Well-

# 2371 ROBERT BAKER:

What?

# 2372 CORA FISCHMAN:

-see, they put words in my mouth.

# 2373

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2374 Q:

Who is "they"?

# 2375 A:

This one, the media, they already -that thing has been-I-what I said-

# 2376 ROBERT BAKER:

You're cutting her off very badly this time.

# 2377

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2378 Q:

You may finish.

# 2379 A:

Okay. What I said, and I would like to really-I was crying, okay. I went to him. He was sitting with his mother. I was crying, pounding, pounding his chest, and I was crying. I said, "What happened? What happened here? Who did this to my friend? And all that she wanted to do was take care of Sydney and Justin."

And OJ. said, "I just loved her so much. I just loved her so much," and then that was it. That was the end of the conversation.

# 2380 Q:

"Loved her too much." Right?

# 2381 A:

No; I said, "I loved her so much. I loved her so much."

# 2382 ROBERT BAKER:

Nice try.

# 2383 CORA FISCHMAN:

See, you asked me also about that yesterday, the " too much. n So as I said, you know, if "too" and "so" mean the same, so-so be it, but I said, "I loved her so much. I loved her so much."

# 2384

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2385 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you that- Excuse me.

Did OJ. Simpson ever tell you that he was thinking about surprising Nicole for her birthday in May of 1994 by renting a yacht and taking Nicole and her friends out on the yacht?

# 2386 A:

If OJ. told me?

# 2387 Q:

Yes.

# 2388 A:

No.

# 2389 Q:

Did Nicole tell you that?

# 2390 A:

Yes.

# 2391 Q:

And did Nicole tell you that she did not want to go to Florida on a yacht with Mr. Simpson?

# 2392 A:

No. She said that-she was actually thinking about that. She wanted to, but she wasn't sure-at the time

she wasn't sure if she really wanted to do it or not; that's all.

# 2393 Q:

So Nicole told you that she was not sure.

# 2394 A:

Yes.

# 2395 Q:

Okay.

# 2396 A:

It was in a planning stage, pretty much.

# 2397 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I think that's all I have for now, but I reserve my right to ask any further questions when the other counsel have concluded their questioning.

# 2398 ROBERT BAKER:

Are you going to have any questions, Mike?

# 2399 MICHAEL BREWER:

Yeah.

# 2400 ROBERT BAKER:

How long?

# 2401 MICHAEL BREWER:

Half hour.

# 2402 ROBERT BAKER:

All right. Do you want to go, and then I'll go after you?

# 2403 MICHAEL BREWER:

Mr. Kelly asked to go second this time.

# 2404 ROBERT BAKER:

Okay, I'll go next. Let's take a quick break.

# 2405 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

THEVIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:30.

# 2406 (Recess.)

# 2407 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Couple more questions.

# 2408 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you about keeping a diary?

# 2409 A:

No.

# 2410 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether she was making any notes of her conversations with OJ. Simpson around the time that she died?

# 2411 A:

No.

# 2412 Q:

Okay. Did she tell you about a conversation that she had with Mr. Simpson on June 3 or June 2 when they had a vicious argument, and he-and she hung up on him?

# 2413 A:

No.

# 2414 Q:

Okay. Do you recognize the hand- writing in this document which has been previously marked as en exhibit in this case? It's Exhibit 86.

Do you recognize that as Nicole's handwriting?

# 2415 A:

Uh-huh.

# 2416 Q:

Do you see that?

# 2417 A:

Uh-huh.

# 2418 Q:

And that's Nicole's handwriting?

# 2419 A:

Yes.

# 2420 Q:

And I am showing you the last two pages of Exhibit 86, including and in particular the entry on June 3.

# 2421 A:

Yes.

# 2422 Q:

Does that ring a bell?

# 2423 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 2424 Q:

Okay. This is where Nicole is describing that OJ. had come over to pick up the kids, came too late, and they slept over at the house, and then she's writing down the things that OJ. had said to her at that time. Do you see that?

# 2425 A:

Yes.

# 2426 Q:

Now, did she tell you about that conversation?

# 2427 A:

Yes, she told me about that conversation.

# 2428 Q:

Okay. And-

# 2429 A:

She didn't tell me the whole thing, but she told me that she-

# 2430 Q:

The gist of it.

# 2431 A:

Yeah, right.

# 2432 Q:

Okay. Not each and every word that she wrote down here-

# 2433 A:

Yes.

# 2434 Q:

-but she told you the gist of that conversation that-

# 2435 A:

That she spoke to OJ., yes.

# 2436 Q:

The one conversation I'm referring to is the one, for the record, indicated on June 3-under her notes for June 3 in the Exhibit 86. Do you see that?

# 2437 A:

Yes.

# 2438 Q:

Okay. And did you speak to OJ. Simpson about that conversation?

# 2439 A:

No.

# 2440 Q:

And do you know why OJ. Simpson was so hostile towards Nicole?

# 2441 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 2442 CORA FISCHMAN:

At that time?

# 2443

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2444 Q:

Yes.

# 2445 A:

I thought it was because of the IRS letter.

# 2446 Q:

Why was OJ. Simpson doing this to Nicole?

# 2447 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 2448 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know.

# 2449

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2450 Q:

What did Nicole tell you? In other words, what-

# 2451 A:

They were fighting over-about their friends, you know. Nicole was upset that Faye was invited to the sports spectacular, and I remember Nicole calling me and said, you know, "I can't believe OJ.'s buying my friends," and that's pretty much why they were both fighting.

# 2452 Q:

Do you know why OJ. Simpson started to threaten Nicole with IRS action?

# 2453 A:

I don't know.

# 2454 Q:

Did she tell you why he was doing this?

# 2455 A:

No.

# 2456 Q:

He had never done this before to your knowledge. Correct?

# 2457 A:

What, the IRS?

# 2458 Q:

Threatened her with IRS action.

# 2459 A:

That was the first time, yes.

# 2460 Q:

And do you have any information, based on all of your conversations with Nicole, why he was doing this?

# 2461 A:

Because...

# 2462 ROBERT BAKER:

This would be speculation also.

# 2463 CORA FISCHMAN:

See, I-see, what I think doesn't-you know, it's not what OJ. or Nicole said, I mean, but at that time I thought they were fighting over Faye.

# 2464

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2465 Q:

Why would-what does that have to do with OJ. threatening IRS action?

# 2466 A:

Because Nicole called OJ., screaming at him, saying, you know, "Why are you taking all my friends away from me? You think you can take my friends again."

And OJ. said, you know, "I wasn't- "I wasn't"-OJ. was denying that. He says, you know, "It was Faye who called me, who wanted to be invited to the sports spectacular," and then- and that's pretty much the conversation.

# 2467 Q:

So you don't know why OJ. was threatening IRS action. Correct?

# 2468 A:

No, I don't.

# 2469 Q:

Now, in these notes Nicole Simpson is writing about her children, and

# 2470 A:

Right.

# 2471 Q:

-do you have any understanding as to why she was making notes about her children during this time, meaning near the very end of her life?

# 2472 A:

I don't know.

# 2473 Q:

Did she-

# 2474 A:

I didn't even know she was writing a diary.

# 2475 Q:

Did she express any concern to you about her children in the last few weeks of her life?

# 2476 A:

No.

# 2477 Q:

About who would care for her children-

# 2478 A:

No.

# 2479 Q:

-if something should happen to her?

# 2480 A:

Well, we talked about that during our run. You know, we kid around. I said, "If anything should happen to us, you know, we'll take care of each other's kids."

# 2481 Q:

Oh, that was-you were kidding around, you mean?

# 2482 A:

Well, you know, when we go and we have fights with our husband and we said, "Oh, you know, if anything should happen to us, you know, and so...

# 2483 Q:

You took that seriously. Correct?

# 2484 A:

I didn't take it serious, but we talked about it all the time.

# 2485 Q:

Well, you told me yesterday that that's the pact of Nicole that you're now honoring.

# 2486 A:

I am, yeah, it's a pact that we honored. We talked about it all the time, yes.

# 2487 Q:

So it's something you took seriously enough to honor now that she has been killed.

# 2488 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 2489 Q:

So it wasn't a big joke.

# 2490 A:

No, it wasn't a big joke.

# 2491 Q:

Okay. Getting back to my question, do you know why she was concerned about her children near the very end?

# 2492 A:

She was always concerned about her kids.

# 2493 Q:

Why she was concerned about her children when it came to OJ. Simpson?

# 2494 A:

I don't think she was concerned with-

# 2495 Q:

Do you know why she was making notes about OJ. Simpson's activities concerning the children?

# 2496 A:

I didn't know that. I didn't know that she was making notes.

# 2497 Q:

Was she complaining to you near the end that OJ. wasn't available for the children?

# 2498 A:

No, she was not complaining.

# 2499 Q:

That he wasn't picking them up on time or showing up for them or was away quite-too much?

# 2500 A:

No.

# 2501 Q:

No?

# 2502 A:

Well, you know, OJ. was always away, you know, back and forth, so I don't know. I don't remember.

# 2503 Q:

On May 22 she says, "we officially split up," and then later on at the end of that entry she says, "He's been gone the last 4 weekends." Do you recall her telling you that?

# 2504 A:

All I know is at the time when she talked to me about their split-up, I know she said to me,

"We're gonna start talking about every other weekend." You know, "When kids" "when he's around, he should be with the kids. I don't want him to get away with this, he can just take time off and not be with the kids." Yeah, I remember that.

# 2505 Q:

Okay. And on May 28 she says that OJ. went away for Saturday and Sunday but took the kids Friday and Monday. This is Memorial Day weekend. Do you recall that?

# 2506 A:

I don't remember.

# 2507 Q:

Excuse me?

# 2508 A:

I don't remember that.

# 2509 Q:

She says, "Blowup with Cora in car." Do you see that? "Blow up with Cora in car."

# 2510 A:

"Blow up with Cora in car."

# 2511 Q:

Right above the entry for May 28, 1994. What's that about?

# 2512 A:

"Blow up with Cora in car." Oh, I remember that. We were- when I was gonna pick up the kids -I went to pick up the kids in the morning, because I asked Nicole- I think that was when Nicole had pneumonia or something like that. I don't remember. But I went to pick up their kids to go to school, to [Name Deleted], and so Nicole called me in my car and said that OJ. wants to take the kids to school.

"But"-I said, "But that's okay. I already have them in the car.."

And so as I was going through Bundy by the corner of Gretna Green, OJ. was behind me, and he toot the horn and he said, "Let me take the kids to school."

And so I said, "Well, I have the kids with me."

He says, "No. I'll take the kids to school."

I said, "Okay, fine." So the kids got out and they went with their dad.

# 2513 Q:

How-

# 2514 A:

And I was on the phone with Nicole. I said, you know, "Why is he taking the kids to school?" You know, "I have them."

So that's when she said, you know, "He's mad. He's mad. We got into a fight."

# 2515 Q:

So that must be the fight. So that's the blowup with Cora.

# 2516 Q:

Let me see if I understand this. You had Nicole's children in the car?

# 2517 A:

Yes.

# 2518 Q:

Sydney and Justin?

# 2519 A:

Yes. That was in the morning.

# 2520 Q:

You had picked them up where?

# 2521 A:

From Bundy to take them to [Name Deleted] to school.

# 2522 Q:

So you are driving en route from Bundy to [Name Deleted]. Right.,

# 2523 A:

From Gretna Green to San Vicente, yeah.

# 2524 Q:

How long is that ride to the school?

# 2525 A:

How long is the ride? I would say three minutes.

# 2526 Q:

And then while you're driving away from Nicole's house, then you get a call from Nicole on your car phone?

# 2527 A:

Right.

# 2528 Q:

And she tells you that OJ. wants to take the kids to school?

# 2529 A:

No. "OJ. called me and looking for the kids, and he wants to take the kids to school."

# 2530 Q:

Okay.

# 2531 A:

And then while I was crossing the intersection, I said, "Oh, OJ.'s here. He's in front"- "he's behind me now."

# 2532 Q:

And he beeped the horn at you?

# 2533 A:

Beeped the horn.

# 2534 Q:

What car did he have?

# 2535 A:

He had the Bentley, and then pull on the side and he said, you know, all I want to take the kids."

I said, "Well, you know, take the kids."

# 2536 Q:

At that time I said, "What's going on here? Is he mad or what?"

She says, "Let him take them. So he took the kids to school.

# 2537 Q:

Which kids?

# 2538 A:

Sydney and Justin.

# 2539 Q:

And did he take your kids?

# 2540 A:

Took-

# 2541 Q:

Excuse me?

# 2542 A:

And then I took my kids to [Name Deleted].

# 2543 Q:

So you and he both then drove to the school together-

# 2544 A:

Right.

# 2545 Q:

-in the same-He didn't take your children.

# 2546 A:

No, he didn't take my kids.

# 2547 Q:

Okay. And did he seem upset to you?

# 2548 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 2549 Q:

Did he say anything to you?

# 2550 A:

No. He just say, "I want my kids."

# 2551 Q:

Now-

# 2552 A:

He was mad. He was angry-

# 2553 Q:

Yes, he was mad and angry.

# 2554 A:

-because we were just having, you know...

# 2555 Q:

Where did the exchange of the kids occur?

# 2556 A:

On Gretna Green-I mean, San Vicente and Gretna Green.

# 2557 Q:

And how long did it take from that point to get to the school?

# 2558 A:

Oh, my God. It's about two miles, So one, two-two and a half miles, so I would say, what, two minutes?

# 2559 Q:

Did you-later on when you dropped the children off, did you call Nicole and say, "What's going on here? What happened? What's this all about?"

# 2560 A:

Well, yeah, we spoke on the phone. I said, "What's going on?"

# 2561 Q:

And what did she tell you?

# 2562 A:

She said that OJ.'s mad at me. I said, "Why?" At that time I think OJ. thought that I was the bad influence to Nicole's life because of my affair with [Name Deleted].

# 2563 Q:

That's what Nicole told you?

# 2564 A:

Well, Nicole told me, "OJ.'s mad at you.

# 2565 Q:

Oh, "OJ.'s mad at you."

# 2566 A:

Me.

# 2567 Q:

Oh, so he didn't want you taking his kids to school.

# 2568 A:

Yeah, because he thought I was a bad influence to Nicole's life, whatever Nicole was going through.

# 2569 Q:

I see. And did you talk to OJ. Simpson about that at all?

# 2570 A:

Later on, yeah.

# 2571 Q:

When?

# 2572 A:

I must have told him when-you know what? We really didn't talk about that.

# 2573 Q:

You said, "Later on, yeah." When?

# 2574 A:

I don't remember. I mean, I think So, yeah.

# 2575 Q:

Before he was arrested? Before Nicole's death or after?

# 2576 A:

Oh, after, after Nicole's death.

# 2577 Q:

When he got out of jail, or on the phone while he was in jail?

# 2578 A:

I think over the phone when he was in- when the book came out, when Faye Resnick-yeah, right, when Faye Resnick's book came out.

# 2579 Q:

And what did he tell you about his being mad at you?

# 2580 A:

Because he thought I was the bad -you know, I was the bad influence. "Negative vibes bring negative vibes," is what he said.

# 2581 Q:

And what did you tell him? That it wasn't you, that it was Faye?

# 2582 A:

I said, you know, "Faye and Nicole were going out a lot. It wasn't me."

# 2583 Q:

What was the reaction of the children to being taken out of your car and being put in OJ.'s car?

# 2584 A:

What was their reaction? It was nothing.

# 2585 Q:

Nothing?

# 2586 A:

Yeah, they were just-they left my car and they drove into their daddy's car.

# 2587 Q:

Did your children go-did you or your children go with Nicole's children to see THE FLINTSTONES movie during the Memorial Day weekend?

# 2588 A:

My God, I don't remember.

# 2589 Q:

Or to an arcade or to play miniature golf?

# 2590 A:

I don't remember.

# 2591 Q:

Now, do you remember any other incidents in the last couple of weeks of Nicole's life concerning arguments with OJ. about the children?

# 2592 A:

I don't remember.

# 2593 Q:

You don't remember?

# 2594 A:

About the children?

# 2595 Q:

Yes.

# 2596 A:

No. That's pretty much the weekend. They were-you know, she wanted the weekend schedule. That's pretty much it.

# 2597 Q:

Nicole writes here, "I told OJ. we're going back to every other weekend."

# 2598 A:

Yeah, that's right.

# 2599 Q:

I need the rest and OJ.'s gone so much-he needs the alone time with them." Is that what Nicole told you?

# 2600 A:

Yeah, she mentioned to me, yes, that she's gonna work on the week- ends with him.

# 2601 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

# 2602

EXAMINATION

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Cora Fischman

He suspected that she was having an affair with [Name Deleted], and he asked me, he says, 'Are they having an affair?' I said, 'No. They're just friends.' And he says, 'Well, someone's eating the caviar and champagne every time I leave.'

OJ's suspicion-laced remark about Alessandro reveals his jealousy and surveillance of Nicole's life even after the separation.

Cora Fischman

Nicole told me, 'Don't ever, whatever happens, don't ever tell OJ. that I had an affair before I left Rockingham,' and I—I made a promise to her.

Establishes that Cora actively concealed Nicole's affair from OJ at Nicole's explicit request, and that she kept that secret even when OJ directly asked her.

Cora Fischman

She apparently wanted to know if I was there, and I told [Name Deleted], 'Tell her I'm not here, because I don't want to go home.' And so Nicole apparently said, 'Tell her to go home because her kids are looking for her and Ron is angry. Ron's been calling.'

Describes the 2 a.m. phone call on June 12 — the last night of Nicole's life — and the ordinary domestic concerns Nicole was expressing just hours before the murders.

Cora Fischman

He says, you know, 'I love that woman.' You know, 'We had such a great marriage. What happened?'

OJ's own words, relayed through Cora, expressing continued emotional attachment to Nicole during their separation — part of Petrocelli's effort to establish obsessive control.

Cora Fischman

She told me to loosen up. She says, you know, 'Cora, you have such a bad marriage. Why don't you just relax, and probably this will help your marriage in the long run.'

Nicole's advice to Cora to pursue an extramarital affair — which later puts Cora at [Name Deleted]'s home on the night of June 11-12, directly connecting to the last known phone call Nicole made.

Evidence (4)

Plaintiffs' 160

Sealed piece of paper containing the name, address, home phone, and employer (UCLA) of Cora's boyfriend [Name Deleted], withheld from the transcript at Kramer's request

marked for identification, retained by Petrocelli, omitted from transcript

Informal

Photograph of OJ Simpson that Cora previously gave to Robert Shapiro and Marcia Clark

discussed; Cora could not produce it as it had been handed over to criminal case parties

Informal

Brooke Skulski book notes referenced in prior subpoena

Cora searched for them but could not locate them

Informal

Birthday party photograph of Nicole and Cora, 1993

discussed as one of very few photographs Cora possesses of Nicole

Notable Exchanges (5)

Daniel Petrocelli•Robert Baker•Philip Kramer

Dispute over whether to put [Name Deleted]'s full name and address on the record, with Baker citing press harassment concerns (parallel to how Kim Goldman's friends' information was handled), Kramer citing privacy interests, and Petrocelli insisting on the information for subpoena purposes. Resolved by having Cora write it on a sealed exhibit.

strategic

Daniel Petrocelli•Robert Baker

Baker accuses Petrocelli of 'invading this woman's privacy rights in an attempt to harass her' when Petrocelli presses on how Nicole instigated Cora's affair; Petrocelli responds dryly: 'You are getting very good, Mr. Baker.' Baker: 'Thank you.'

heated with dark humor

Daniel Petrocelli•Cora Fischman

Petrocelli confronts Cora with the fact that she failed to mention Nicole's 2 a.m. phone call to [Name Deleted] the day before. Cora deflects by saying Petrocelli hadn't specifically asked. Petrocelli walks through the full sequence — Nicole calling, Cora instructing [Name Deleted] to lie about her whereabouts, and then the one-hour follow-up call the next morning.

revealing

Daniel Petrocelli•Cora Fischman

Petrocelli presses Cora repeatedly on whether Nicole ever discussed physical abuse or the 1989 New Year's Eve beating as a reason for leaving the marriage. Cora denies Nicole ever raised the physical abuse with her, instead attributing the split to womanizing and OJ's absence. Petrocelli's repeated leading attempts are objected to by Baker.

strategic

Cora Fischman•Philip Kramer

After Petrocelli announces he will go to the judge if Cora refuses to answer how Nicole instigated the affair, Kramer pulls Cora aside for an off-record consultation. She then answers.

procedural

Light Moments (3)

Daniel Petrocelli

After Petrocelli notes Cora held a press conference between deposition sessions to deny sleeping with OJ Simpson, he moves on with 'Okay' — treating it as an entirely normal piece of preparation.

Robert Baker

Baker corrects Petrocelli when he says 'Keith' but means '[Name Deleted]': 'MR. BAKER: [Name Deleted].' — Baker stepping in to clean up a naming error.

Robert Baker

When Petrocelli responds sarcastically to Baker's privacy objection — 'You are getting very good, Mr. Baker' — Baker replies 'Thank you.'

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Cora Fischman

omission / prior incomplete testimony

Petrocelli points out that Cora failed to mention Nicole's 2 a.m. phone call to [Name Deleted] during the prior day's session, despite being asked about her contact with Nicole on June 11-12. Cora's defense — 'You didn't ask me' — is noted but Petrocelli treats it as a significant gap.

⚔ Cora Fischman

bias

Petrocelli flags that Cora's concealment of Nicole's affair from OJ, and her own affair with [Name Deleted] (which Nicole was aware of and encouraged), establishes a web of loyalties and secrets that may color her testimony. Petrocelli explicitly names 'bias' when Cora asks why it matters.

Witness Demeanor

Frequently gives hedged, incomplete answers ('pretty much,' 'I don't know,' 'to my knowledge')

Occasionally pushes back on the framing of questions ('No, that's not why')

Appears confused tracking the chronological sequence of Nicole's relationships, saying 'I'm getting confused now'

Willing to volunteer information when she feels the context is being misrepresented (cuts off Petrocelli to correct his characterization of Nicole's motivation)

Consulted privately with her attorney (Philip Kramer) before answering the sensitive question about how Nicole instigated the affair

Objections

28 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

2 Cross-examination of Ms. Fischman by Robert Baker

Examiner: Robert Baker • Type: cross • 688 utterances

📜 Daniel Petrocelli 🛡️ Robert Baker 👤 Philip Kramer 📜 John Kelly 📜 Michael Brewer

Baker cross-examines Cora Fischman, Nicole's closest friend, in a session dominated by relentless leading questions met with constant 'leading' objections from Petrocelli. Baker methodically uses Fischman to undermine the prosecution's domestic violence narrative: he establishes that OJ's 1993 'kill' threat was made in the context of Nicole's affair with Marcus Allen and was later used by Nicole as a figure of speech, that threatening phone calls in 1992 came from someone other than OJ (and Nicole asked OJ to keep watch over her), and that Nicole's dangerous lifestyle and drug-involved circle — particularly Faye Resnick — were Fischman's primary concern for Nicole's safety. The cross ends with Fischman confirming she does not believe OJ Simpson killed Nicole.

# 1

BY MR. BAKER:

# 2 Q:

Good afternoon, Miss Fischman, my name's Phil Baker. The first time we met was yesterday. True?

# 3 A:

Yes.

# 4 Q:

You've tried to be accurate and honest when you responded to questions by the police. True?

# 5 A:

True.

# 6 Q:

And you were accurate end honest when you responded to questions by Mr. Viner to the best of your recollection. True?

# 7 A:

True.

# 8 Q:

And you were accurate end honest when answering questions from Mr. Petrocelli. True?

# 9 A:

True.

# 10 Q:

Now, you've reviewed the statements attached as Exhibit 158.

# 11 A:

Yes, 158.

# 12 Q:

158 is the supplemental statement that you had a conversation with Detective Phil Vannatter on September 15th, 1994. Do you remember having that interview?

# 13 A:

Yes.

# 14 Q:

Is everything you told Mr. Vannatter included in that statement?

# 15 A:

What? I'm sorry.

# 16 Q:

Is everything that you told Mr. Vannatter on that day in that statement form?

# 17 A:

Everything'

# 18 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Which exhibit is this?

# 19 ROBERT BAKER:

That is 158.

# 20 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know if this is everything, so I don't know.

# 21

BY MR. BAKER:

# 22 Q:

Isn't it true that you told Mr. Vannatter on September 14th that Nicole had told you-if you go to paragraph 4. On paragraph 4 you say- the statement form says you say:

"She stated that Nicole told her that OJ. had stated to Nicole, ' I ever catch you with another man, I'll kill you.'" Did you read that part?

# 23 A:

Yes.

# 24 Q:

Now, didn't you tell Detective Vannatter that that statement-Nicole told you this in 1993?

# 25 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading question.

# 26 CORA FISCHMAN:

This was when the reconciliation. That's when Nicole told OJ.-I already told that.

# 27 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Move to strike as non-responsive.

# 28 CORA FISCHMAN:

When Nicole told OJ. about her relationship with Marcus Allen.

# 29

BY MR. BAKER:

# 30 Q:

And that was in 1993. True?

# 31 A:

Right.

# 32 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading. You will have to permit me to object because every one of his questions will be an attempt to lead you to say what he wants you to say, and I will have to object to it.

# 33 CORA FISCHMAN:

Sorry.

# 34

BY MR. BAKER:

# 35 Q:

And you were a little bit confused right now because you told Mr. Petrocelli that off the record. True?

# 36 A:

True.

# 37 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 38 CORA FISCHMAN:

I'm sorry.

# 39 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

That's all right. Just give me a little chance to object there.

# 40

BY MR. BAKER:

# 41 Q:

And you told Detective Vannatter that on September 15, 1994, that this statement from Nicole occurred in 1993. True?

# 42 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 43 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 44

BY MR. BAKER:

# 45 Q:

And that's not included in the statement form attached as Exhibit 158, is it?

# 46 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading. Document speaks for itself.

# 47 MICHAEL BREWER:

What statement? Also vague and ambiguous.

# 48 CORA FISCHMAN:

I'm sorry. There are too many-I don't understand now.

# 49 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

You are going to have to wait because I have a feeling a lot of these questions are going to be objectionable.

# 50 CORA FISCHMAN:

Okay.

# 51

BY MR. BAKER:

# 52 Q:

You told Detective Vannatter that Nicole told you this in 1993. True?

# 53 A:

True.

# 54 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

You have to give us some time.

# 55 CORA FISCHMAN:

I'm sorry.

# 56

BY MR. BAKER:

# 57 Q:

And that doesn't appear in the document attached as Exhibit 158, does it?

# 58 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection-

# 59 MICHAEL BREWER:

Go ahead.

# 60 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

-leading.

Document speaks for itself-

# 61 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 62 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

-object as ambiguous.

# 63 CORA FISCHMAN:

True. BY MR. BAKER:

# 64 Q:

Who is this [Name Deleted]guy that Nicole and Faye-

# 65 JOHN KELLY:

Objection as to form. MR. BREWER: That's outrageous. BY MR. BAKER:

# 66 Q:

-saw in Cabo?

# 67 A:

Who is this [Name Deleted]guy?

# 68 Q:

Do you know who he is?

# 69 A:

No.

# 70 Q:

He made a threat to Nicole-

# 71 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection.

# 72

BY MR. BAKER:

# 73 Q:

-in the Cabo trip in 1994. True?

# 74 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection-

# 75 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't-

# 76 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

-leading.

# 77 (Discussion held off the record.)

# 78 (Pending question read.)

# 79 PHILIP KRAMER:

Any other objections, or can we have the answer?

# 80 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't remember.

# 81

BY MR. BAKER:

# 82 Q:

Well, did you testify yesterday that a person named [Name Deleted]threatened Nicole in Cabo in April of 1994?

# 83 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading. Misstates her testimony.

# 84 CORA FISCHMAN:

I didn't say anything.

# 85

BY MR. BAKER:

# 86 Q:

Let me read to you what you told Mr. Viner on October 29th, 1994. Page 13 Dan.

"Oh, yeah, that's right. So they left, the boys left. She and Nicole--uh, Faye and Nicole were le-uh, stayed in Cabo and they went out...Apparently one of the- "Such as?

"I don't know. I don't know the last name."

And then there's an "Mmnh- mmnh.

"And uh-

"This is April of '94?

"Right, yeah.

"Mmnh. " And you say, "Came home. Then they'd be meeting with them at some point, threatening Nicole..." Do you recall saying that?

# 87 PHILIP KRAMER:

Do you have the question in mind? Do you recall saying that in your interview with Mr. Viner?

# 88 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't remember that.

# 89

BY MR. BAKER:

# 90 Q:

You don't recall-

# 91 A:

I don't recall.

# 92 Q:

-hearing that anyone threatened Nicole in Cabo in April of 1994?

# 93 A:

Yes, I don't recall that.

# 94 Q:

Who is [Name Deleted]?

# 95 A:

Nicole's friend.

# 96 Q:

By the way, how many times a week would you see Nicole in the last six months of her life on average?

# 97 A:

On average? Oh, boy, almost every day.

# 98 Q:

How many times would you say [Name Deleted] saw her on average per week?

# 99 A:

Per week? Over the last six weeks, she was there more often.

# 100 Q:

Do you know what [Name Deleted] did for a living?

# 101 A:

She is an actress.

# 102 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection as to time. Vague as to time.

# 103

BY MR. BAKER:

# 104 Q:

Prior to her death, in about May of 1994 do you know what [Name Deleted] did for a living?

# 105 A:

Yes.

# 106 Q:

What was that?

# 107 A:

She's an actress. And actually she didn't have a job. She was like an aspiring actress.

# 108 Q:

She didn't have a job in the spring of 1994?

# 109 A:

I don't think so.

# 110 Q:

How about [Name Deleted]? Have you ever heard that name before?

# 111 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

How do you spell the last name, Phil?

# 112 ROBERT BAKER:

[Name Deleted]

# 113 CORA FISCHMAN:

[Name Deleted]. Yes.

# 114

BY MR. BAKER:

# 115 Q:

Who is she?

# 116 A:

She's Keith-Keith's girlfriend.

# 117 Q:

Was she a friend of Nicole's?

# 118 A:

Not really, but Nicole gave an engagement party for Keith and Alex.

# 119 Q:

And when was this engagement party?

# 120 A:

When? Oh, God, they were still on Gretna Green, so must be somewhere around 1993.

# 121 Q:

Do you know what Alex did for a living?

# 122 A:

She was a call girl.

# 123 Q:

Do you know who-

# 124 A:

Nicole called her "the Heidi Fleiss call girl."

# 125 Q:

Did you see Alex with Nicole in 1994?

# 126 A:

Yes.

# 127 Q:

How many times a week would you say Alex saw Nicole in the spring of 1994?

# 128 A:

I'd say, I don't know, three times.

# 129 Q:

What about [Name Deleted] Shahian? What did she do for a living in the spring of 1994?

# 130 A:

Spring of 1994?

# 131 (Nods head.)

# 132 A:

She didn't have a job. She was working , part-time for a travel agent, a friend's travel agent.

# 133 Q:

Do you know what she does now?

# 134 A:

She works for Michael Viner.

# 135 Q:

Have you spoken to [Name Deleted] lately?

# 136 A:

No.

# 137 Q:

Did [Name Deleted] ever recommend to you that you should sell your stories to tabloids?

# 138 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 139 CORA FISCHMAN:

At some point, yes, she told me-that's how this Michael Viner came out.

# 140

BY MR. BAKER:

# 141 Q:

[Name Deleted] recommended that you-

# 142 A:

[Name Deleted] and [Name Deleted].

# 143 Q:

[Name Deleted] also recommended that you-

# 144 A:

Yes.

# 145 PHILIP KRAMER:

Let him finish his question.

# 146 CORA FISCHMAN:

Okay. I'm sorry.

# 147

BY MR. BAKER:

# 148 Q:

[Name Deleted] also recommended to you to see Michael Viner?

# 149 A:

[Name Deleted] and [Name Deleted].

# 150 Q:

Do you know if [Name Deleted] made any money from tabloids?

# 151 A:

[Name Deleted] told me that [Name Deleted] was paid money to authenticate Faye's book. Actually, [Name Deleted] authenticated Faye's book, too.

# 152 Q:

Did they ever tell you how much they made?

# 153 A:

[Name Deleted] told me 100,000.

# 154 Q:

Each?

# 155 A:

I don't know, but that's what...

# 156 Q:

How about Keith Zlomsowitzh? What did he do for a living in the spring of 1994?

# 157 A:

Keith?

# 158 (Nods head.)

# 159 A:

Keith was-they were setting up like a manager for Monkey Bar, that restaurant Monkey Bar.

# 160 Q:

Did you ever see Keith do any drugs?

# 161 A:

No, I didn't see, but Nicole-they -they were doing drugs on Gretna Green.

# 162 Q:

Nicole and Keith were doing drugs together?

# 163 A:

That I don't know.

[Question Deleted]

# 164 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 165 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 166

BY MR. BAKER:

# 167 Q:

What did she say, if you recall?

# 168 A:

She said that-that Keith is doing, you know, cocaine a lot.

# 169 Q:

Did she ever tell you that Keith was a drug dealer?

# 170 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 171 CORA FISCHMAN:

No, I don't know.

# 172

BY MR. BAKER:

# 173 Q:

Did you ever see [Name Deleted] do any drugs?

# 174 A:

No.

# 175 Q:

Did you ever hear that she did any drugs?

# 176 A:

Yes.

# 177 Q:

Who told you that? .

# 178 A:

She told me.

# 179 Q:

What did she tell you?

# 180 A:

Well, she said to me that that's how she tries to lose weight, and- and even Nicole told me that, you know, she had her days when she was really coked out.

# 181 Q:

How many times did Nicole tell you this?

# 182 A:

Several times. Many times.

# 183 Q:

Was Candice Garvey a good friend-

# 184 A:

No.

# 185 Q:

-of Nicole?

# 186 A:

No.

# 187 Q:

How many times per week would you say that Candice Garvey saw Nicole in the spring of 1994?

# 188 A:

How many weeks?

# 189 Q:

How many times a week?

# 190 A:

Oh, zero. I mean...

# 191 Q:

They weren't good friends at all, were they?

# 192 A:

No.

# 193 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 194 ROBERT BAKER:

Did you get her answer, Dave?

# 195 THE REPORTER:

Yes.

# 196

BY MR. BAKER:

# 197 Q:

Do you know what she did for a living in the spring of 1994; Candice Garvey, that is?

# 198 A:

No.

# 199 Q:

Now, your children and Sydney and Justin have been good friends throughout their life. True?

# 200 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 201 CORA FISCHMAN:

Since Sydney and Leslie were three and a half years old.

# 202

BY MR. BAKER:

# 203 Q:

And when OJ. was incarcerated, you wanted your children to still see Justin and Sydney socially, didn't you?

# 204 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 205 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 206

BY MR. BAKER:

# 207 Q:

And Juditha Brown would not allow that. True?

# 208 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 209 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 210

BY MR. BAKER:

# 211 Q:

Why wouldn't she allow that? Did she ever communicate that to you?

# 212 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 213 CORA FISCHMAN:

Because she told me during the time in I think it was August, she said to me, "Cora, if you ever speak to OJ., I'll never talk to you ever again."

# 214

BY MR. BAKER:

# 215 Q:

Beginning of August of '94?

# 216 A:

Yes.

# 217 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you that Faye Resnick did drugs?

# 218 A:

Yes.

# 219 Q:

What did she say?

# 220 A:

That Faye was a drug addict, and even [Name Deleted] told me that. Actually, [Name Deleted] was the first one who told me about Faye. She told me-this was the time that [Name Deleted] told me that-you know, "You have to watch out for Faye." Everybody called her "Faye the fake" and that she's- you know, she's a drug addict, substance abuse addict, too.

# 221 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Move to strike as non-responsive.

# 222

BY MR. BAKER:

# 223 Q:

Why did they call her "Faye the fake"?

# 224 A:

Because she's-as [Name Deleted] said, that she's a-she's fake. Even Nicole said that, too. You know, "I don't trust her, but she's my friend," you know.

# 225 Q:

Nicole said she didn't trust Faye?

# 226 A:

Yeah, she didn't trust Faye. She said, "And I don't trust [Name Deleted]. I don't know what they will do," but at some point Nicole said to me, you know, "We were better off just the two of us."

# 227 Q:

Was she concerned about Faye's lifestyle?

# 228 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 229 CORA FISCHMAN:

She didn't like Faye's lifestyle, yes.

# 230

BY MR. BAKER:

# 231 Q:

And what was that lifestyle?

# 232 A:

She's a very-Nicole called her and [Name Deleted] called her "the high-maintenance woman..

# 233 Q:

What did they mean by that?

# 234 A:

That they're out there to get wealthy men.

# 235 Q:

Do you think that Faye was taking advantage of Nicole in the spring of '94?

# 236 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 237 CORA FISCHMAN:

Do I think?

# 238

BY MR. BAKER:

# 239 Q:

Did you think?

# 240 A:

I thought, yes.

# 241 Q:

Why did you think that?

# 242 A:

Because at that time Faye was panicking. She didn't have-she doesn't have Christian; Christian threw her out of the house, she didn't have any money; Paul would not accept her anymore, and she was panicking.

# 243 Q:

That's Paul Resnick?

# 244 A:

Yes, Paul Resnick.

# 245 Q:

Did-Faye moved in with Nicole. Right?

# 246 A:

Pretty much, yes.

# 247 Q:

Did Nicole ever talk to you about Faye moving in with her?

# 248 A:

No.

# 249 Q:

She never-did she ever say she was uncomfortable with Faye moving in with her?

# 250 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 251 CORA FISCHMAN:

No.

# 252

BY MR. BAKER:

# 253 Q:

Did Nicole ever say that she did drugs with Faye?

# 254 A:

No.

# 255 Q:

She just said that Faye did drugs?

# 256 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 257 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 258

BY MR. BAKER:

# 259 Q:

How did she say it?

# 260 A:

She said, you know, I'm worried about Faye. She's just taking too much of the painkiller," because she had breast implants. And actually that started the-this whole thing with the substance abuse, because she was taking I think-I don't know, Percocet or whatever the pain killer was, she was taking too much of that.

# 261 Q:

Percodan?

# 262 A:

I don't know, but it's a pain killer.

# 263 Q:

And Faye was taking that?

# 264 A:

Yes.

# 265 Q:

Did you attend this intervention for Faye?

# 266 A:

Did I?

# 267 (Nods head.)

# 268 A:

No.

# 269 Q:

Were you invited to this intervention?

# 270 A:

No. _

# 271 Q:

Did anybody ever tell you about this intervention?

# 272 A:

No. You have to understand, Nicole knows I don't like Faye, and she knew about that, so...

# 273 Q:

Did Nicole think that Faye could be bought?

# 274 A:

Uh-huh. MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.

# 275 CORA FISCHMAN:

She actually said that, "I'm afraid that Faye can be bought."

# 276

BY MR. BAKER:

# 277 Q:

What did you take that to mean?

# 278 A:

That she was going on OJ.'s side.

# 279 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you that she distrusted Faye?

# 280 A:

Yes.

# 281 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 282

BY MR. BAKER:

# 283 Q:

When did she tell you that?

# 284 A:

That time when this whole thing about the sports spectacular.

# 285 Q:

Were you jogging with Nicole during that week when Faye-or couple weeks, whatever, when Faye was living at Gretna Green-or at Bundy, rather?

# 286 A:

Yes.

# 287 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Lack of foundation. Misstates her testimony.

# 288

BY MR. BAKER:

# 289 Q:

Did she talk about Faye during those jogging trips?

# 290 A:

I would say yes.

# 291 Q:

What would she say?

# 292 A:

That she's worried about Faye and that she's taking too much Perco-whatever, pain killer. I'm not sure what it is.

# 293 Q:

Were you worried about the people Nicole was hanging out with in the spring of 1994?

# 294 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading, vague, ambiguous, lack of foundation.

# 295 CORA FISCHMAN:

I wasn't worried, no.

# 296

BY MR. BAKER:

# 297 Q:

Were you concerned for her?

# 298 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Same objections.

# 299 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes, I was concerned.

# 300

BY MR. BAKER:

# 301 Q:

Why were you concerned?

# 302 A:

At that time Nicole was leading like a dangerous life. I mean, she was coming on to guys; she was, you know, doing these things with Faye, and I was worried about her.

KEY QUOTE

# 303 Q:

When you talked to Michael Viner, you said on "And that-that's Nicole, Nicole wasn't really into those things. And I think because with the drugs and this thing and alcohol, I don't know what happened to Nicole . . . And If eel that led her to her death." Do you remember saying that?

# 304 A:

Could you repeat that again, please?

# 305 Q:

Sure. I'm sorry. Page l6 of your statement with Michael Viner-

Did we attach this?

# 306 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I did not attach it.

# 307 ROBERT BAKER:

Okay, why don't we attach it as the next one in line.

# 308 PHILIP KRAMER:

The entire exhibit?

# 309 ROBERT BAKER:

Sure.

# 310 PHILIP KRAMER:

Let me just ask whether there is-I have not seen this before. It has "Confidential" stamped on it. I don't know whether this transcript is sealed confidential and whether this is-

# 311 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

This is not a sealed confidential transcript.

# 312 PHILIP KRAMER:

So this will become part of the public domain, this confidential report?

# 313 ROBERT BAKER:

Well, it's-

# 314 CORA FISCHMAN:

I signed it-Michael Viner signed that.

# 315 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

That's just a standard D.A.

# 316 ROBERT BAKER:

Every document has it produced by the D.A. from what I have seen.

# 317 PHILIP KRAMER:

Well, if there is-

# 318 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I have no objection to it being included, and I think it probably should.

# 319 PHILIP KRAMER:

And I-my preference is for it not to be there because this was an interview that my client gave with the cloak of confidentiality at the time.

# 320 ROBERT BAKER:

Okay. Well, I have no- I won't mark it if it concerns you, and I will just continue to refer to it.

# 321 PHILIP KRAMER:

Please, that's our preference.

# 322 MICHAEL BREWER:

Well, it should be marked. It's been referred to, it's been identified, and irrespective of counsel's concerns, every single document from the D A. has that stamp, and it's a public record, and we ought to mark it as an exhibit. If you want to not attach it to the deposition transcript, that's fine.

# 323 ROBERT BAKER:

Okay.

# 324 PHILIP KRAMER:

I appreciate that as a matter of courtesy. If you are willing to do that, that's great. We will just do that.

# 325 ROBERT BAKER:

What's the next-

# 326 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Well, I would-

# 327 ROBERT BAKER:

What's the next exhibit number?

# 328 THE REPORTER:

164.

# 329 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I don't know why it shouldn't be included as an exhibit. I think it should be included.

# 330 JOHN KELLY:

Attach it.

# 331 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Exhibit 164. You've been overruled.

# 332 MICHAEL BREWER:

You've been overruled. Attach it.

# 333 JOHN KELLY:

I am going to if you don't.

# 334 PHILIP KRAMER:

I will lodge my objection based on Article I, Section 1, of the California Constitution for privacy rights, and before this is-the transcript is completely done, I have procedures that I can do, and I don't know whether I'll do them.

# 335 JOHN KELLY:

This is the Viner manuscript where she gave an interview for commercial purposes?

# 336 PHILIP KRAMER:

This is an interview that she gave with certain confidentiality restrictions placed to it.

# 337 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yeah.

# 338 PHILIP KRAMER:

So that's right. So I am lodging that objection, and I will confer with my client at some point between now and then.

# 339 ROBERT BAKER:

Until then we will mark it as Exhibit 164. It will not be attached to the record pending discussions at the close of this deposition.

# 340 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

That's not agreed to.

# 341 (Defendant's Exhibit 164 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)

# 342

BY MR. BAKER:

# 343 Q:

Nonetheless, on page 16-or actually-

# 344 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Do you have copies of it?

# 345 JOHN KELLY:

Uh-uh.

# 346 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

You want some?

# 347 JOHN KELLY:

Sure. I'll need them eventually.

# 348

BY MR. BAKER:

# 349 Q:

On page 16, line 10, you say:

"And that-that's Nicole. Nicole wasn't really into those things. And I think because with the drugs and this thing and alcohol, I don't know what happened to Nicole . . . And I feel that led"-that that led her to her death." Do you remember saying that?

# 350 A:

Yes.

# 351 Q:

What did you mean by that?

# 352 A:

What do I mean by that? She was doing-she was drinking too much and her association with Faye. That's pretty much.

# 353 Q:

And you were concerned for her safety. True?

# 354 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 355 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 356

BY MR. BAKER:

# 357 Q:

And that's why you went to talk to OJ. about going to Florida. Isn't that true?

# 358 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 359 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 360

BY MR. BAKER:

# 361 Q:

And when you took that walk around the block with OJ. over at Rockingham, you said that you thought it was best that OJ. take Nicole and the kids, and move to Florida. True?

# 362 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 363 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 364

BY MR. BAKER:

# 365 Q:

And that was because you were concerned about her safety, and you thought that OJ. could protect her. True?

# 366 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 367 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 368

BY MR. BAKER:

# 369 Q:

And at that time OJ. told you that he was currently dating Paula. True?

# 370 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 371 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 372

BY MR. BAKER:

# 373 Q:

And you thought OJ. was the best person to protect her at that time, didn't you? .

# 374 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 375 CORA FISCHMAN:

At that time, yes, because they wanted to-you know, I thought that they could get back together again.

# 376

BY MR. BAKER:

# 377 Q:

In 1992 was Nicole receiving threatening phone calls?

# 378 A:

Yes.

# 379 Q:

This was in the calendar year of 1992?

# 380 A:

Yes.

# 381 Q:

Did she tell you about those phone calls?

# 382 A:

Yes. Every day someone was calling, calling her up like three, four times a day, and pretty much an obscene phone call.

# 383 Q:

And this is when she moved into Gretna Green?

# 384 A:

Yes

# 385 Q:

Did she ever tell you that she was fearful because of these phone calls? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.

# 386 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 387

BY MR. BAKER:

# 388 Q:

Did she ever file a police report?

# 389 A:

Yes.

# 390 Q:

When did she file the police report, if you know?

# 391 A:

During the time when she was worried about her safety. I don't know the time frame.

# 392 Q:

Did she tell you that Detective Fuhrman and Phillips were the investigating officers during those phone calls?

# 393 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 394 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know. BY MR. BAKER:

# 395 Q:

The police found a suspect, didn't they?

# 396 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 397 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes. BY MR. BAKER:

# 398 Q:

And they identified one person who they believed were making the phone calls. True?

# 399 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 400 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 401

BY MR. BAKER:

# 402 Q:

And that was not OJ. Simpson. True?

# 403 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 404 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 405

BY MR. BAKER:

# 406 Q:

And in fact Nicole asked OJ. to keep an eye on her because of these phone calls. True?

# 407 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 408 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 409

BY MR. BAKER:

# 410 Q:

She was concerned about her safety, and she was concerned about the safety of her children. True?

# 411 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 412 CORA FISCHMAN:

True. Actually, Nicole spoke to that guy.

# 413

BY MR. BAKER:

# 414 Q:

Nicole spoke to the caller?

# 415 A:

The caller.

# 416 Q:

When did she speak to the caller?

# 417 A:

That-when the guy was investigated. I mean when they found the guy.

# 418 Q:

What did she say to him?

# 419 A:

She said, "You have to stop calling me."

# 420 Q:

Did she call him up?

# 421 A:

No. I think the guy called again.

# 422 Q:

The guy called after the police had already arrested him.'

# 423 A:

Yes.

# 424 Q:

And what did she say?

# 425 A:

No, not arrested. The guy called during the time. She says, you know "You can't call here. I know you, I know where you live, and I know who you are."

# 426 Q:

Is that before she lodged the police report?

# 427 A:

Before what?

# 428 Q:

Before she lodged a police report, if you know?

# 429 A:

No. That was already when it was -when she reported to the police.

# 430 Q:

And as far as you know, the calls ceased after that?

# 431 A:

As far as I know, yes.

# 432 Q:

In 1993 before the reconciliation Nicole wanted to get back with OJ. Isn't that true?

# 433 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 434 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 435

BY MR. BAKER:

# 436 Q:

And OJ. was dating Paula at that point. True?

# 437 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 438 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 439

BY MR. BAKER:

# 440 Q:

And Paula-or Nicole told you that she would go anywhere with OJ. True?

# 441 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 442

BY MR. BAKER:

# 443 Q:

Nicole told you that she would go anywhere with OJ. in 1993. True?

# 444 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 445 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 446

BY MR. BAKER:

# 447 Q:

And she actually put that in a letter to OJ. True?

# 448 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 449 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 450

BY MR. BAKER:

# 451 Q:

I want to get the dating chronology accurately. When she moved out of Rockingham, she was dating Alessandro. Correct?

# 452 A:

Correct.

# 453 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 454

BY MR. BAKER:

# 455 A:

It was pretty much [Name Deleted].

# 456 Q:

And then subsequently she started dating Keith Zlomsowitzh?

# 457 A:

Yes.

# 458 Q:

And how did that relationship end?

# 459 A:

How did that end? She basically stopped seeing-well, they still saw each other, but stopped having sex when Nicole got back from Cabo and she started seeing [Name Deleted].

# 460 Q:

When is this? 1992? 1993?

# 461 A:

1992. May of '92, must be around that time.

# 462 Q:

Do you know how they broke up? Did she tell him'

# 463 A:

Who?

# 464 Q:

Did Nicole tell Keith the relationship was over?

# 465 A:

Why they broke up?

# 466 Q:

No. How-when did it break up, or how did it break up?

# 467 A:

How? Because Nicole found [Name Deleted]. Really, Nicole was not really attracted to Keith. As Nicole said, "I just used Keith for sex," because she was very-she was very lonely at that time, and she-and Keith was there.

# 468 Q:

How long did she go out with Keith?

# 469 A:

I would say two months.

# 470 Q:

Did she tell you when she told Keith the relationship was over?

# 471 A:

She didn't tell me, but pretty much when she got back from Cabo, Keith was heartbroken because she told him about [Name Deleted], that she had-she slept with [Name Deleted].

# 472 Q:

She slept with [Name Deleted] in Cabo?

# 473 A:

In Cabo.

# 474 Q:

Was Keith upset when she told-

# 475 A:

Keith was very upset. Keith was in love with her, with Nicole.

# 476 Q:

And they broke up in May of 1992?

# 477 A:

Around that, yes.

# 478 Q:

Did they ever see each other after that?

# 479 A:

They remained friends, yes.

# 480 Q:

Anything more than friends after May of 1992, as far as you know?

# 481 A:

I don't know.

# 482 Q:

How long did she date [Name Deleted]?

# 483 A:

Not that long, because [Name Deleted] was living with another woman before.

# 484 Q:

Was he married?

# 485 A:

What?

# 486 Q:

Was [Name Deleted] married?

# 487 A:

No.

# 488 Q:

He was living with another woman when Nicole and he were dating?

# 489 A:

Yes.

# 490 Q:

How long did she go out with [Name Deleted]?

# 491 A:

How long? Not that long.

# 492 Q:

And who broke up with whom?

# 493 A:

At that time it was Nicole.

# 494 Q:

Did she tell you how she broke up with him?

# 495 A:

Because she said that "I will not go out with a man with another"-you know, "with another woman."

# 496 Q:

Did she tell you when that was?

# 497 A:

I would say around July.

# 498 Q:

July of 1993 or 1992?

# 499 A:

1994-no, no, can't be. I think they went out for about six months.

# 500 Q:

And then subsequently she started dating [Name Deleted]?

# 501 A:

Okay. Wait. Now I'm getting confused with tine here. When did they get their divorce? October?

# 502 Q:

October of i992.

# 503 A:

1992. So May, June, July, August. Yeah, it was August, September. Okay. Till September the relationship with [Name Deleted] fell apart, and then from October she started going out with [Name Delete].

# 504 Q:

Was [Name Deleted] married at this point?

# 505 A:

At this point?

# 506 (Nods head.)

# 507 A:

No.

# 508 Q:

Was he ever married when he was dating Nicole?

# 509 A:

No, I don't know, so...

# 510 Q:

How long did she go out with [Name Deleted]?

# 511 A:

I would say three months. October, November, December, yeah.

# 512 Q:

Then she started going out with [Name Deleted]?

# 513 A:

'93, yeah. She met [Name Deleted]in Aspen.

# 514 Q:

And how long did she go out?

# 515 A:

How long?

# 516 Q:

With [Name Deleted].

# 517 A:

I would say they actually went out only twice.

# 518 Q:

Subsequently, she started going back out with OJ. True?

# 519 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 520 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes, right. That's January, right.

# 521

BY MR. BAKER:

# 522 Q:

And then in 1994 she had sex with a person by the name of [Name Deleted], and she was seeing Marcus Allen as well. True?

# 523 A:

True.

# 524 Q:

And yesterday Mr. Petrocelli was referring to parties at OJ.'s, OJ.'s house.

# 525 A:

Yes.

# 526 Q:

When he was asking you about parties, it seemed like the terminology was somewhat confusing.

# 527 Q:

When you've been over there and- there has been a group of people over there. True?

# 528 A:

True

# 529 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Object to your predicate as-

# 530 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 531 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

-"parties" being confusing, lacks foundation, leading.

# 532

BY MR. BAKER:

# 533 Q:

Have you been to any formal parties with OJ. since his acquittal in October?

# 534 A:

No.

# 535 Q:

And so when you've gone over to his house to pick up your children, there have been family members and various friends, but nothing you would describe as a party. True?

# 536 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 537 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 538

BY MR. BAKER:

# 539 Q:

About this interview you had with Michael Viner and representatives of the National Enquirer, the National Enquirer representatives would have paid you money for your story. True?

# 540 A:

True.

# 541 Q:

But you decided against that. True?

# 542 A:

True.

# 543 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 544

BY MR. BAKER:

# 545 Q:

Why?

# 546 A:

Because I told Michael Viner, "I really don't want the tabloid. If we could avoid National Enquirer, I would like to do really another-you know, through a magazine, a decent magazine." And Michael Viner knew that, and he told me he's going to try Vanity Fair or, you know, like People Magazine, a much better, you know, tasteful magazine than National Enquirer.

# 547 Q:

Do you know if he ever did that?

# 548 A:

If they ever did that? No.

# 549 Q:

If he ever did that, if he ever offered the story to People or Vanity Fair.

# 550 A:

I don't know.

# 551 Q:

Now, yesterday earlier in the day Mr. Petrocelli asked you if Nicole had ever said that different people would kill her, and you said yes.

# 552 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection.

# 553

BY MR. BAKER:

# 554 Q:

Do you recall that?

# 555 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Misstates her testimony.

# 556 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 557 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

She said the only person who ever said he would kill her was OJ. Simpson.

# 558

BY MR. BAKER:

# 559 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you that her mother would kill her?

# 560 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading question.

# 561 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 562

BY MR. BAKER:

# 563 Q:

Did she ever tell you that Faye Resnick might kill her?

# 564 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading question.

# 565 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 566

BY MR. BAKER:

# 567 Q:

Anybody else?

# 568 A:

That's pretty much-she used "kill" as a figure of speech. That's why, you know, she kinda used that as-you know, it's like an expression.

# 569 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Move to strike as non-responsive.

# 570

BY MR. BAKER:

# 571 Q:

And when Nicole told you that OJ. might kill her if she-if he sees her with another men, that occurred in 1993. True?

# 572 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 573 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 574

BY MR. BAKER:

# 575 Q:

And were there any other times since the 1993 comment that she said that OJ. might kill her?

# 576 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 577 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 578

BY MR. BAKER:

# 579 Q:

How many times?

# 580 A:

Oh, you mean like she says, "OJ.'s gonna kill men? Yeah, she's mentioned that, you know, like if she did something wrong or she went out, she says, "Oh, God, OJ.'s gonna kill me if he finds out."

# 581 Q:

She used it as a figure of speech. True?

# 582 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 583

THE WITNESS: I thought so, yeah. (Discussion held off the record.)

# 584

BY MR. BAKER:

# 585 Q:

You've read what is attached as Exhibit 157. True?

# 586 A:

True.

# 587 Q:

And that refers to an interview you had with Detective Payne on June 24th, 1994. True?

# 588 A:

True, yes.

# 589 Q:

And you were completely honest and accurate when you were answering his questions on that date. True?

# 590 A:

True.

# 591 Q:

Have any other tabloids, other than the National Enquirer by way of Mr. Viner or the Star, offered you money for your story?

# 592 A:

All these people have offered money.

# 593 Q:

A lot of tabloids have offered you money?

# 594 A:

Yeah. Star has offered me at that time 100,000 if they give me-my story, and I refused.

# 595 Q:

Is this in June of 1994?

# 596 A:

Around that time, yes. And all the tabloids, you know, "American Journal," and all those people.

# 597 Q:

How much has the "American Journal" offered you?

# 598 A:

Oh, they offered me money to talk.

# 599 Q:

Why didn't you?

# 600 A:

At that time I didn't want to talk about-I thought I was betraying my friendship with Nicole.

# 601 Q:

Now, Mr. Petrocelli showed you some pictures of keys attached as exhibits 162 and 163.

# 602 A:

Yeah.

# 603 PHILIP KRAMER:

The exhibits to the deposition are in front of the witness.

# 604

BY MR. BAKER:

# 605 Q:

Are you a hundred percent positive those are the keys on Exhibit 163 that Nicole maintained?

# 606 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading-

# 607 JOHN KELLY:

Objection as to form.

# 608 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

-argumentative.

# 609 CORA FISCHMAN:

No. A hundred percent, no.

# 610 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

She indicated...

# 611

BY MR. BAKER:

# 612 Q:

The key that she used to use when she went jogging had one or two keys on one single key ring. True?

# 613 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 614 CORA FISCHMAN:

One single key ring, yes.

# 615

BY MR. BAKER:

# 616 Q:

Now, there has been some reference in some interviews that Nicole told you that OJ. was following her. How many times did Nicole tell you that OJ. was following her?

# 617 A:

How many times?

# 618 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Misstates her testimony. She said Nicole -she said OJ. was following, not just Nicole said. She observed it also.

# 619

BY MR. BAKER:

# 620 Q:

Well, you mentioned three incidents: You've mentioned two incidents in 1992 end an incident in 1994.

# 621 A:

Yes.

# 622 Q:

In 1992 the sum total of the incident was that Nicole was sitting at a table; OJ. walked by, made one comment to her and turned around and walked to the bar. True?

# 623 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 624 MICHAEL BREWER:

And the men scattered. Go ahead.

# 625 JOHN KELLY:

A number of them.

# 626 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

You forgot all the men running for their lives.

# 627 ROBERT BAKER:

Did you get that answer?

# 628 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 629 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. It's argumentative and it's leading.

# 630

BY MR. BAKER:

# 631 Q:

And the other incident in 1992 where he was purportedly following her is when he walked into Tryst and you believe saw her, turned around and left. True?

# 632 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 633 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 634 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

She said nothing about purported.

# 635

BY MR. BAKER:

# 636 Q:

And in 1994 the only incident you know of is that Nicole told you that she might have seen OJ.'s car behind her. True?

# 637 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading-

# 638 JOHN KELLY:

Might have?

# 639 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

-misstates her testimony.

# 640 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 641 ROBERT BAKER:

Why don't we take a five-minute break, and I'll wrap it up.

# 642 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay, thanks.

THEVIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 2 of Volume 11. The time is approximately 3:37, and we are off the record.

# 643 (Recess )

# 644

BY MR. BAKER:

# 645 Q:

Miss Fischman, do you know about a car accident that Faye Resnick and Nicole were involved in January of 1994?

# 646 A:

Yes.

# 647 Q:

What do you know about that?

# 648 A:

They were on Sunset Boulevard, and they-Nicole was trying to light something and give it to Faye, and apparently Nicole said that she didn't see the car, and so there was a car accident. There was a-she hit the BMW that was in front of the car.

# 649 Q:

Do you know-

# 650 A:

It was totaled.

# 651 Q:

Do you know what she was trying to light?

# 652 A:

At the time she-they were doing, what do you call this, drugs.

# 653 Q:

She was trying to light drugs?

# 654 A:

Yeah.

# 655 Q:

Do you know who took-

# 656 A:

This drug, you know, marijuana-? I don't know.

# 657 JOHN KELLY:

Percodan?

# 658 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know. Cocaine. I don't know.

# 659

BY MR. BAKER:

# 660 Q:

Do you know who took responsibility for that accident?

# 661 A:

Well, what happened was they were so drunk that evening-that evening that Nicole was afraid to take the sobriety test, so what Faye did was Faye said, "I will take the sobriety test. I can make it.. So she did pass the sobriety test, and from then on Nicole owed her life to Faye.

# 662 Q:

Now, did Nicole tell you this story?

# 663 A:

Nicole told me and Faye told me.

# 664 Q:

There have been some reports that you have been or are dating Mr. Simpson. Those are completely untrue?

# 665 A:

Untrue.

# 666 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading the witness.

# 667

BY MR. BAKER:

# 668 Q:

You've never dated OJ. Simpson.

# 669 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Leading the witness.

# 670 CORA FISCHMAN:

That is so untrue.

# 671

BY MR. BAKER:

# 672 Q:

And it's simply a figment of the tabloids. True?

# 673 A:

True.

# 674 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Lead-ing the witness.

# 675

BY MR. BAKER:

# 676 Q:

You were Nicole's best friend for four

years. True?

# 677 A:

True.

# 678 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Leading.

# 679

BY MR. BAKER:

# 680 Q:

And you observed her relationship with OJ. better than anyone. True?

# 681 A:

So far as I know, yes.

# 682 Q:

And you don't believe OJ. Simpson killed Nicole Simpson. True?

# 683 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 684 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes, true.

# 685 ROBERT BAKER:

I've got nothing further.

# 686 JOHN KELLY:

You want to go ahead? Are you only going to be like a half hour?

# 687 MICHAEL BREWER:

Yeah, I'll go.

# 688

EXAMINATION

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Cora Fischman

She used 'kill' as a figure of speech. That's why, you know, she kinda used that as-you know, it's like an expression.

Directly undermines the prosecution's central domestic violence threat — the 'I'll kill you' statement to Nicole — by contextualizing it as non-literal language Nicole herself used casually.

Cora Fischman

Yes, true.

In response to Baker asking 'You don't believe OJ. Simpson killed Nicole Simpson. True?' — Nicole's self-described best friend of four years affirming she believes OJ is innocent is the culminating moment of the entire cross.

Cora Fischman

She actually said that, 'I'm afraid that Faye can be bought.' ... That she was going on OJ.'s side.

Nicole's own words expressing fear that Faye Resnick could be bought — and that she'd side with OJ — complicates Faye's role as a prosecution-friendly witness and source.

Cora Fischman

At that time Nicole was leading like a dangerous life. I mean, she was coming on to guys; she was, you know, doing these things with Faye, and I was worried about her.

Fischman's own characterization of Nicole's lifestyle in spring 1994, directly attributing concern to Faye's influence and Nicole's behavior — not OJ.

Cora Fischman

Nicole told me, 'I just used Keith for sex,' because she was very lonely at that time, and Keith was there.

Offered to establish the character of Nicole's post-separation relationships, painting a complex personal life that Baker is using to contextualize who posed risks to Nicole.

Evidence (4)

Exhibit 158

Statement form from Cora Fischman's September 14-15, 1994 interview with Detective Vannatter

Baker challenges what is and is not included — specifically that the 1993 date of Nicole's 'kill' threat was not reflected in the document

Exhibit 164

Transcript of Cora Fischman's interview with Michael Viner, stamped 'Confidential,' conducted for potential tabloid/book purposes

Marked over Philip Kramer's privacy objection; Baker quotes from it at length; lengthy sidebar debate about whether to attach it to the deposition record

Exhibit 157

Record of Fischman's interview with Detective Payne on June 24, 1994

Referenced to establish Fischman was truthful and accurate in that statement

Exhibits 162 and 163

Photographs of keys — keys Nicole allegedly used when jogging

Baker challenges whether Fischman is '100 percent positive' the keys in Exhibit 163 are Nicole's; she confirms she is not

Notable Exchanges (4)

Robert Baker•Daniel Petrocelli•Philip Kramer•John Kelly•Michael Brewer

Extended multi-party argument over whether to mark and attach the Viner interview transcript (Exhibit 164). Kramer invokes Article I, Section 1 of the California Constitution on privacy grounds; Petrocelli and Kelly push to attach it; Baker ultimately marks it but agrees not to attach it pending further discussion. Petrocelli delivers the line 'You've been overruled' to Kramer.

heated

Robert Baker•Cora Fischman

Baker walks Fischman through her conversation with OJ at Rockingham — where she urged him to take Nicole and the kids to Florida because she feared for Nicole's safety from her own lifestyle, and she believed OJ could protect her. Fischman confirms she thought OJ was the best person to protect Nicole at that time.

strategic

Daniel Petrocelli•Robert Baker

After Baker asks whether Nicole told Fischman that 'different people' would kill her, Petrocelli breaks in on the record: 'She said the only person who ever said he would kill her was OJ. Simpson.' Baker then elicits from Fischman that Nicole also said her mother would kill her and Faye Resnick might kill her — and that she used the word as a figure of speech.

revealing

Robert Baker•Cora Fischman

Baker elicits testimony about 1992 threatening phone calls to Nicole from an unidentified suspect — not OJ — and that Nicole asked OJ to keep watch over her and the children because of those calls.

strategic

Light Moments (2)

Daniel Petrocelli / John Kelly

After Baker characterizes one of the 1992 'following' incidents — OJ walking by Nicole's table, making a comment, and going to the bar — Petrocelli sarcastically adds 'You forgot all the men running for their lives,' to which Kelly adds 'A number of them.' Baker asks the reporter if she got the answer.

John Kelly

When Fischman is asked what was being lit in the car during the January 1994 accident with Faye, she trails off — 'marijuana, I don't know' — and John Kelly interjects: 'Percodan?'

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Faye Resnick

Character evidence via witness testimony

Baker uses Fischman to build an extended portrait of Faye as a drug addict, a 'fake,' financially desperate and taking advantage of Nicole, someone Nicole herself distrusted and feared could be 'bought.' Multiple friends of Nicole's apparently called her 'Faye the fake.'

⚔ Cora Fischman (indirect — tabloid motive)

Prior conduct / financial interest

Baker establishes that multiple tabloids (National Enquirer, Star — $100K offer, American Journal) approached Fischman for her story, and that she gave a paid interview to Michael Viner for a potential book/magazine deal. Baker then uses the Viner transcript (Exhibit 164) to quote her own words back at her.

⚔ Prosecution's domestic violence narrative

Prior inconsistent framing / contextual impeachment

Baker elicits that the 'I'll kill you' statement from OJ occurred in 1993 in response to Nicole's affair with Marcus Allen, was not documented with a date in Exhibit 158, and that Nicole herself routinely used 'kill' as a figure of speech about multiple people including her mother and Faye.

Witness Demeanor

Frequently apologizes for answering before objections are entered: 'I'm sorry.' / 'Sorry.'

Becomes confused navigating multiple exhibits and timelines: 'I'm sorry. There are too many — I don't understand now.'

Self-corrects on dating chronology mid-answer: 'Now I'm getting confused with time here.'

Speaks candidly and with detail about Nicole's private life without apparent hesitation

Vehemently denies tabloid reports she was dating OJ: 'That is so untrue.'

Objections

68 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

3 Redirect examination of Ms. Fischman by Michael Brewer

Examiner: Michael Brewer • Type: redirect • 811 utterances

🛡️ Robert Baker 📜 Michael Brewer 👤 Philip Kramer 📜 Daniel Petrocelli

Mr. Brewer cross-examines Cora Fischman, Nicole Brown Simpson's closest friend, establishing through methodical questioning that Nicole had told her she was physically afraid of OJ Simpson, that the 1989 beating was confirmed, and that Fischman's own initial reaction upon learning of the murder was to suspect OJ. The examination also extracts that AC Cowlings himself initially believed OJ was guilty, and surfaces a remarkable moment where OJ asked Fischman from jail whether she thought he was capable of killing Nicole — and she declined to say no.

# 1

BY MR. BREWER:

# 2 Q:

Miss Fischman, my name is Michael Brewer, and I represent Sharon Rufo. I have just a few questions for you.

You had said earlier that Nicole was afraid of OJ. Simpson. Is that true?

# 3 A:

True.

# 4 Q:

And when you say "afraid," she was afraid for her physical safety. Is that true?

# 5 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 6 CORA FISCHMAN:

Physical and I guess because of her-because of his voice.

# 7

BY MR. BREWER:

# 8 Q:

Okay. What about his voice?

# 9 A:

Well, she said that OJ. has a very, very strong voice, you know, and it's a scary voice.

KEY QUOTE

# 10 Q:

So would it be fair to say that as of June of 1994, you were aware that Nicole Simpson was afraid-physically afraid of OJ. Simpson?

# 11 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 12

BY MR. BREWER:

# 13 Q:

Is that a fair statement?

# 14 A:

Well, you know, when she said, "I'm afraid"-not afraid. You know, "I'm afraid of OJ.," yes, physically afraid, yes.

# 15 Q:

In fact she told you about a 1989 incident in which he had beaten her. Is that true?

# 16 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 17 CORA FISCHMAN:

That's true.

# 18

BY MR. BREWER:

# 19 Q:

And he had caused her physical injury. Is that true?

# 20 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 21 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 22

BY MR. BREWER:

# 23 Q:

And she had even told you or you had even made a comparison-she had made a comparison with you with respect to bruising that she had received in connection with that beating when you were talking about bruising that you had on your body. True?

# 24 A:

True.

# 25 Q:

Has Nicole ever told you that anyone else has ever beaten her?

# 26 A:

If Nicole told me?

# 27 Q:

Yeah. Did Nicole tell you, other than Mr. Simpson-

# 28 A:

No.

# 29 Q:

-has she ever told you that anyone, anyone in this universe, has beaten her?

# 30 A:

She never told me anything.

# 31 Q:

Has she told you that anyone has caused her physical harm other than OJ. Simpson?

# 32 A:

No.

# 33 Q:

So as of the time of her death, the only person that she had ever told you about or that you had knowledge of that had caused her physical harm was OJ. Simpson. Is that true?

# 34 A:

True.

# 35 Q:

Has Nicole Brown Simpson ever told you that she was afraid of anyone else other than OJ. Simpson?

# 36 A:

She was afraid of anyone?

# 37 Q:

Yes.

# 38 A:

No.

# 39 Q:

Did she ever identify a person by name and indicated to you that she was afraid of that person?

# 40 A:

No.

# 41 Q:

The only person in the universe that Nicole Brown Simpson has ever identified to you as a person that she was afraid of was OJ. Simpson. Is that true?

# 42 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 43 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 44

BY MR. BREWER:

# 45 Q:

And as of June of l994, that would also be true. Correct?

# 46 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 47 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 48

BY MR. BREWER:

# 49 Q:

Is there anything that you ever observed during the course of seeing Nicole and Mr. Simpson that caused you to disbelieve the sincerity of her statement that she was afraid of OJ Simpson? MR. KRAMER: Do you understand the question?

# 50 CORA FISCHMAN:

She was afraid?

# 51 PHILIP KRAMER:

He is not asking if she was afraid. Was there anything- perhaps the question should be read back.

# 52

BY MR. BREWER:

# 53 Q:

Well, why don't you see if you understand the question before I start reasking it. Do you understand what I'm asking you?

# 54 A:

No.

# 55 ROBERT BAKER:

That's a worthy "Could you be more vague" objection.

# 56 MICHAEL BREWER:

Excuse me?

# 57 ROBERT BAKER:

"Could you be more vague" objection.

# 58 MICHAEL BREWER:

Well, I thought that was copyrighted.

# 59 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Like father, like son.

# 60

BY MR. BREWER:

# 61 Q:

Let me ask it a different way: When Nicole indicated to you that she was afraid, you believed her. Right.'

# 62 A:

Did I believe it?

# 63 Q:

Yeah.

# 64 A:

Yes.

# 65 Q:

You didn't believe she was making it up. Right?

# 66 A:

Yes.

# 67 Q:

You didn't believe that her statement or her concerns with respect to her being afraid of OJ. were insincere. Is that true?

# 68 A:

Was what?

# 69 Q:

Insincere.

# 70 A:

True.

# 71 Q:

Is there anything that you ever observed during the course of that relationship between OJ. and Nicole that led you to believe that Nicole's statement about being afraid of OJ.

Simpson was insincere?

# 72 A:

Led to believe? I don't...

# 73 Q:

Your answer is no?

# 74 A:

No.

# 75 Q:

Okay. Now, how did you first hear of Nicole's death?

# 76 A:

How did I first hear? Pam Schwartz told me.

# 77 Q:

By telephone?

# 78 A:

Yes.

# 79 Q:

And did you go over to her house?

# 80 A:

Yeah.

# 81 Q:

Did you drive over there?

# 82 A:

Yeah.

# 83 Q:

Were you wearing jogging attire when you got over there?

# 84 A:

Yes. I was waiting for her call.

# 85 Q:

Okay. You were at home waiting for Nicole's call?

# 86 A:

Yeah, because we were going to run.

# 87 Q:

And Pam Schwartz called you?

# 88 A:

Yeah.

# 89 Q:

And told you that she had been killed?

# 90 A:

Yeah.

# 91 Q:

Did she tell you anything about the facts and circumstances of her murder?

# 92 A:

No.

# 93 Q:

Did she tell you whether anyone else was involved?

# 94 A:

No.

# 95 Q:

Did she tell you whether there was another victim.,

# 96 A:

No.

# 97 Q:

When you went over to the murder scene, did you have a chance to see actually where Nicole's body was?

# 98 A:

At the time I saw a lot of blood. There was blood all over the gate, and there was a lot of-you know, the dogs, and they told me that...

# 99 Q:

Let me ask a question: Who did you talk to?

# 100 PHILIP KRAMER:

At the scene at the time when she arrived?

# 101 MICHAEL BREWER:

Yeah.

# 102 Q:

The time we're talking about, at the scene of the murder when you went over there, who did you talk to?

# 103 A:

I talked to a policeman there.

# 104 Q:

Did they tell you that someone else was also a victim,

# 105 A:

No. I just said, "What happened here?"

# 106 Q:

And what did that person tell you?

# 107 A:

They said, "We can't give you any information."

# 108 Q:

Was that a uniformed police officer?

# 109 A:

Yes.

Q And so the only thing you knew is that Nicole had been killed. Right?

# 110 A:

Yes.

# 111 Q:

Did you assume that she had been killed on the pathway into her property because of the blood that you observed?

# 112 A:

Yes.

# 113 Q:

Did you know anything about how she had been killed?

# 114 A:

No.

# 115 Q:

Did anyone else say anything to you at the murder scene with respect to the facts and circumstances of the murders other than the statement by a police officer that she had been killed?

# 116 A:

Well, they made-the police told me to talk to the two guys, and they said, "Identify yourself."

I said, "I'm Nicole's friend.. And the first question they asked me is, "What was OJ."-"Was OJ. at the recital?"

I said "Yes. What happened here?" And then so I said-

And they asked, "What was he wearing?" And they said, "What kind of shoes was he wearing at the recital?" I said, "He was.-I don't remember. He was wearing black loafers with no socks." That's what I said.

# 117 Q:

Do you understand why they were asking those questions with respect to Mr. Simpson?

# 118 A:

Well, at that time I said, "Why? He did it?" you know. At the time that was the first thing that entered my mind. I mean, my God, he did this? You know.

# 119 Q:

So you drew some association between the questions that you were being asked with Mr. Simpson-

# 120 A:

Yeah.

# 121 Q:

-and his possible involvement?

# 122 A:

Because I thought he was caught. I thought that, you know, that they got him or something.

# 123 Q:

Okay. Just so my question is clear and your answer is clear, though, at the time that you were being asked questions with respect to Mr. Simpson's attire and whether he was at the recital, you drew some association between Mr. Simpson's possible involvement in these murders and being asked these questions.

Is that a fair statement?

# 124 A:

Yes.

# 125 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 126

BY MR. BREWER:

# 127 Q:

And then you ran away from the murder scene, right, being mobbed by media and questions?

# 128 A:

Exactly, yeah.

# 129 Q:

And did you go home at that time?

# 130 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 131 Q:

Did you begin to watch the news?

# 132 A:

At that time my phone was ringing. I don't know. I mean, everything was -I was-it was a lot of confusion already at the time.

# 133 Q:

You were confused because your best friend had just been killed.

# 134 A:

Yeah, I was shocked. I was numb. I was, you know-I didn't know what was going on.

# 135 Q:

You didn't know what happened. Right?

# 136 A:

I didn't know what happened.

# 137 Q:

: You were interested in finding out what happened. Right?

# 138 A:

Of course I was.

# 139 Q:

And it was important to you to find out why Nicole was killed and who killed her. Right?

# 140 A:

Right.

# 141 Q:

And I take it during the day you attempted to develop information or illicit information to answer those questions for you. Is that true?

# 142 A:

Yeah.

# 143 Q:

And you turned on the news. Is that true?

# 144 A:

Right. True.

# 145 Q:

And did you contact friends of Nicole's?

# 146 A:

Yeah, people were calling me already. Everybody was calling me at that time.

# 147 Q:

People were calling you for information?

# 148 A:

I mean the media, friends of Nicole, and they were saying, you know, "I'm sorry you lost your friend," you know. At that time everybody was calling. The phone was ringing a lot.

# 149 Q:

Let's be clear on something. People were calling you. Right?

# 150 A:

Yes.

# 151 Q:

Were you calling other people?

# 152 A:

I was also calling, yeah.

# 153 Q:

Okay. Because you were trying to find out what happened. Is that true?

# 154 A:

True.

# 155 Q:

You were trying to find out who was responsible. Is that true?

# 156 A:

True.

# 157 Q:

And who did you first call to find out-

# 158 A:

Who?

# 159 Q:

-who was responsible? Who was the very first person that you called to find out this information that may lead to the idendty of the persons responsible for this murder?

# 160 A:

I first called?

# 161 Q:

Yes. Who did you call?

# 162 A:

I don't know. I was-I called my sister-in-law in the car. I called Ron, you know.

# 163 Q:

So you called your husband?

# 164 A:

Yeah. I told him what happened.

# 165 Q:

Had he heard anything about the murders when you talked to him.,

# 166 A:

He didn't know about it.

# 167 Q:

So your communication with trim was the very first information he had relative-

# 168 A:

Yes.

# 169 Q:

-to these murders?

# 170 A:

Yes.

# 171 Q:

What did he say when you told him that Nicole had been killed?

# 172 A:

He said, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry, you know.

# 173 Q:

Did you tell Ron that you had been asked questions about OJ. Simpson?

# 174 A:

No. At the time we were just like -I was just calling-I called the school, you know.

That's pretty much what happened.

# 175 Q:

Well, didn't it cross your mind that perhaps Mr. Simpson was involved?

# 176 A:

It did cross my mind, yeah, sure.

# 177 Q:

And the reason why it crossed your mind is that this was a person that Nicole Brown Simpson had told you that she was afraid of. Right?

# 178 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 179

BY MR. BREWER:

# 180 Q:

Isn't that true?

# 181 A:

Yes, true.

# 182 Q:

And this was a person that had physically beaten her in the past. Isn't that true?

# 183 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading. Assumes facts not in evidence.

# 184 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 185

BY MR. BREWER:

# 186 Q:

And that caused you to begin thinking that maybe Mr. Simpson was the person who committed this horrific murder. Isn't that true?

# 187 A:

True.

# 188 Q:

Now, was there at some point during that first day a conversation that you had with someone where you expressed this suspicion?

# 189 A:

Yeah. You know, we were trying to figure out what happened, you know, who could have done this. If OJ. did it, why did he do it. So we were trying to- trying to figure out, trying to find answers.

# 190 Q:

When you say "we," are you talking about-

# 191 A:

I mean like [Name Deleted] and Kris Jenner and, you know, my sister-in-law [Name Deleted], and I was... [Name Deleted]. You know we're trying to figure out, you know what really happened here, you know. That's-my friends.

# 192 Q:

Was one of the themes that was running between these communications that you were having with your friends the fact that OJ. might have done this?

# 193 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 194 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes, we were trying to figure out what really happened.

# 195

BY MR. BREWER:

# 196 Q:

Okay. And at some point during that day did you and your husband, Mr. Fischman, have a discussion with respect to the possibility that OJ. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 197 A:

Yeah, we talked about that, too.

# 198 Q:

All right. And did Mr. Fischman indicate to you that he suspected that Mr. Simpson was responsible for the death of Nicole?

# 199 A:

If my husband thought?

# 200 Q:

Did he tell you that he thought OJ. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 201 A:

Well, we all thought that the first time when we heard the incident, the whole thing.

# 202 Q:

When you say, "we all thought that...when we heard the incident," you mean when you heard that Nicole was murdered-

# 203 A:

The first-

# 204 Q:

Excuse me.-everyone that you knew and talked to that day drew the same conclusion that you did: That Mr. Simpson was the person that was responsible for the Nicole's murder. Is that what you're saying?

# 205 A:

True.

# 206 Q:

Including Ron Fischman?

# 207 A:

True.

# 208 Q:

Okay. Can you identify every single person-you've identified some of them. I want to get a complete list of the people that you talked to that day. [Name Deleted], right, was one of them.'

# 209 A:

Yes.

# 210 Q:

[Name Deleted]. Right?

# 211 A:

Yes.

# 212 Q:

Your husband. Right?

# 213 A:

Right.

# 214 Q:

Your sister-in-law?

# 215 A:

Yes.

# 216 Q:

Who else?

# 217 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 218 Q:

Okay.

# 219 A:

My brothers, my sister, friends, neighbors that came.

# 220 Q:

What neighbors did you talk to about Mr. Simpson?

# 221 A:

Oh, no neighbors, no, no, no, no, no. I was gonna say our neighbor, but we shooed her away. We said, "No, we didn't want to talk."

Oh, who else. That was pretty much...

# 222 Q:

Okay. And during the day were you continuing to monitor the news developments?

# 223 A:

Uh-huh, yes.

# 224 Q:

And were you getting tidbits of information relative to evidence that was being developed and the facts and circumstances of the murders?

# 225 A:

True, yes.

# 226 Q:

At some point did you learn that there was another victim.,

# 227 A:

Yes.

# 228 Q:

When was that?

# 229 A:

When was that?

# 230 Q:

Yes.

# 231 A:

Actually when I was-when I heard that there was another victim, I said, "Oh, my God, it's either Ron Goldman or the guy at Toscana, Mark."

# 232 Q:

So you-

# 233 A:

So at the time when it was not identified, I thought of those two people.

# 234 Q:

So the very first time that you heard there was another victim-

# 235 A:

Yes.

# 236 Q:

First of all, did you know it was a male victim.;

# 237 A:

Yes.

# 238 Q:

The very first time that you heard there was another victim, it was identified as a male victim; you drew an association between that victim and Ron Goldman or someone at Toscana's?

# 239 A:

The waiter at Toscana.

# 240 Q:

[Name Deleted]?

# 241 A:

No. Mark. Mark.

# 242 Q:

Mark. What's Mark's last name?

# 243 A:

I forgot his name. But Mark-he was one of the pallbearers. I forgot his last name.

# 244 Q:

Why did you suspect that Mark may be the other victim?

# 245 A:

Because Nicole was very attracted to Mark, and at that time-see, Nicole went to Mezzaluna, and Ron and I and our kids went to Toscana so-and Mark was there. So I thought that since Mark saw me at Toscana, oh, probably Nicole-or Mark must have called Nicole and said, you know, "Oh, guess who I saw? Cora was here with her family." So that's why I thought of Mark.

# 246 Q:

And so you thought of Mark because he may have been having a relationship with Nicole?

# 247 A:

Yes.

# 248 Q:

And you thought of Ron Goldman for the same reason?

# 249 A:

For the same reason, yes. Yes.

# 250 Q:

That he was having a relationship with Nicole?

# 251 A:

That Ron was interested in Nicole, was attracted to Nicole.

# 252 Q:

And I take it the reason why you drew an association between these two individuals, Ron and the person at Toscana, was because you assumed that it was Mr. Simpson acting on some jealousy.

# 253 Q:

Is that a fair statement?

# 254 A:

Acting on jealousy?

# 255 Q:

Yes.

# 256 A:

Yes.

# 257 Q:

I mean, you assumed that he probably came upon Nicole with a male suitor and then killed him Is that what you were assuming at the time?

# 258 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 259 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 260 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

John, you were supposed to be covering for him.

# 261 JOHN KELLY:

The mike wouldn't reach.

# 262 MICHAEL BREWER:

Got to cover my back there, Kelly.

# 263 ROBERT BAKER:

I'm sorry.

# 264

BY MR. BREWER:

# 265 Q:

Okay. Apart from learning that there was another victim involved what other information did you hear on the 13th with respect to either information that tended to implicate Mr. Simpson or just general evidence that was being discussed in the media?

# 266 A:

Well, it was basically the evidence coming out of the media.

# 267 Q:

Well, like what do you remember hearing? What type of evidence?

# 268 A:

They said, oh, they saw blood on the driveway and they saw the gloves. That's pretty much, you know...

# 269 Q:

Blood in Mr. Simpson's driveway?

# 270 A:

Yeah.

# 271 Q:

Do you remember hearing about that?

# 272 A:

They said there were three- there was blood on the driveway- that was the first one that said, "Oh, they found blood on the driveway."

# 273 Q:

Okay. So you heard the first day that they had found-

# 274 A:

First, second day. No, not the first day. I don't think I even listened. I was-all I know is everything was a daze, and it was just-it was... Oh, I'm sorry.

# 275 Q:

Let me just ask a question: Would it be fair to say that rather than pinpoint it to Monday or Tuesday, that within the first couple days you were hearing information through the media that related to evidence that was being developed for Mr. Simpson's possible implication in these murders?

Is that a fair statement?

# 276 A:

Yes.

# 277 Q:

One of the things you heard about was the fact that blood was found on the Rockingham driveway.

Right?

# 278 A:

Right.

# 279 Q:

Did you also hear that there was a glove found on his property?

# 280 A:

Right.

# 281 Q:

Did you also hear that blood was found at Bundy?

# 282 A:

Yes.

# 283 Q:

Did you also hear that the blood that was found at Bundy was identified as blood belonging to OJ. Simpson?

# 284 A:

Yes.

# 285 Q:

Now, when you began to hear this information, did it reaffirm your initial suspicions that Mr. Simpson was responsible for the death of Nicole?

# 286 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 287 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes, but it was like I was in disbelief, you know. It was like hard to believe, that it can't happen. It can't happen. Because I know these people, you know. It was like-

# 288

BY MR. BREWER:

# 289 Q:

You didn't want to believe it was true?

# 290 A:

Yes. It was like-it was I can't believe it. You know, is this happening? Is this really true? You know.

# 291 Q:

You didn't want to believe that OJ. Simpson could annually kill Nicole. Right?

# 292 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 293 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 294

BY MR. BREWER:

# 295 Q:

Despite not wanting to believe that, you developed an initial suspicion that OJ. Simpson was responsible for the death of Nicole. Is that true?

# 296 A:

True.

# 297 Q:

And all of the information that you began to hear-the blood on his driveway, the glove that was found at Rockingham, the blood that was found at Bundy-that was affirming your initial suspicion that OJ. Simpson was responsible for the death of Nicole.

# 298 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 299

BY MR. BREWER:

# 300 Q:

Is that a fair statement?

# 301 A:

That's true, yeah.

# 302 Q:

Now, during the first couple weeks do you recall hearing any information that, when you thought about learning-when you thought about the information that you heard, you drew a conclusion that it supported an opinion that Mr. Simpson was not responsible, something that was contrary to implicating him as involved in these murders?

# 303 ROBERT BAKER:

From the med-?

# 304 MICHAEL BREWER:

Yeah. Any source.

# 305 CORA FISCHMAN:

Any source from the media?

# 306

BY MR. BREWER:

# 307 Q:

Sure.

# 308 A:

Well, at the time I thought like, why they not looking for other suspects. You know, why they lead to OJ. at the time. I said, "Nicole at the time was going out a lot with Faye. Why couldn't they look for other possibilities," because they were doing- you know, because Nicole-Faye was doing cocaine. And so I said, could it be drugs, you know, could it be, you know, cocaine, all these things. Yes, I opened my mind to all these possibilities.

# 309 Q:

You didn't want to believe it was OJ. Simpson, so you went looking for other possible explanations. Is-

# 310 A:

Yes.

# 311 Q:

-that true? And you had mentioned in previous testimony that the lifestyle that Nicole was leading was a dangerous lifestyle. Is that true?

# 312 A:

Pretty much, yeah. The last weeks, yes.

# 313 Q:

When you say a dangerous lifestyle," are you talking about danger from the standpoint of her own physical safety?

# 314 A:

No. Dangerous because she was going out a lot with Faye and doing this soliciting, doing threesome and soliciting men, and I thought that that was-to me that was a dangerous lifestyle. That's how I-

# 315 Q:

Well, when you say "dangerous," are you talking about dangerous because she may develop AIDS or some illness-

# 316 A:

Yes, yes-

# 317 Q:

-or are you-excuse me- talking about danger became somebody may come home and kill her? What kind of danger are you talking about?

# 318 A:

Pretty much everything dangerous that-she actually was afraid of AIDS, too, you know. Health likewise. Dangerous lifestyle. It's-that's how you call it: Dangerous lifestyle.

# 319 Q:

Well-

# 320 A:

I don't mean physically-it could be physical, too, because somebody-a lot of the guys that they've been going out, to me they could harm her, because she's a very attractive woman.

# 321 Q:

Okay. But when you have used the term a "dangerous lifestyle" during the course of this deposition, in your mind what you're thinking about principally is developing AIDS or some other virus or illness as a result of this type of lifestyle?

# 322 A:

It's-not just that. It's just a lifestyle. It's kind of like she was playing with fire. She was going out, soliciting men and, you know, going out with Faye to different clubs and stuff like that.

# 323 Q:

Did she ever tell you that she was afraid of any of the men that she had dated?

# 324 A:

No.

# 325 Q:

Did she ever tell you that anyone that she had dated threatened her?

# 326 A:

No.

# 327 Q:

Did she ever tell you that any of the men she dated stalked her?

# 328 A:

No.

# 329 Q:

Did she ever tell you that any of the men that she dated made threatening phone calls to her?

# 330 A:

No.

# 331 Q:

Now, at some point, as you indicated in earlier testimony, you came to the conclusion that

Mr. Simpson is innocent. Do you recall that testimony?

# 332 A:

Yes.

# 333 Q:

When did you first come to that conclusion in your mind where you firmly believed that he was innocent?

# 334 A:

When all the evidences were not matching up, and also when the verdict came out, as you say, you know, I always said that let the justice-I believe in the justice system, and we'll believe it like that. You know, I figured that's what happened. I mean, he was found innocent, he's innocent.

# 335 Q:

Was that when you determined that he was innocent: When the verdict came out?

# 336 A:

No, when all the-I just-I doubted about the gloves. The socks is just the one that made me wonder. There were no blood around the socks, and the carpet, his carpet leading to his bedroom is white. How come there were no blood stains leading to his bedroom.

# 337 Q:

When was the first time in your mind you came to the conclusion Mr. Simpson was innocent?

# 338 A:

When this whole trial was going on.

# 339 Q:

When?

# 340 A:

I'm sorry. What?

# 341 Q:

The trial was a year long. What I am trying to figure out, at some point did you come to a conclusion in your mind that Mr. Simpson was innocent?

# 342 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 343 CORA FISCHMAN:

When he was innocent? When all those gloves and- you know, annually it started when they talked about Mark Fuhrman and- you know, whatever, that time frame. That's when I said, my God, you know, there's no way he could have done this.

# 344

BY MR. BREWER:

# 345 Q:

Okay. So you drew some association between the discussions about Mark Fuhrman as to when you determined that Mr. Simpson was innocent? Is that true?

# 346 A:

No, that's not true. It's around that when they talked about the other evidences, too.

# 347 Q:

The socks?

# 348 A:

Yeah.

# 349 Q:

The glove?

# 350 A:

Right.

# 351 Q:

Okay. And that led you to the conclusion that you've expressed during the course of the deposition that Mr. Simpson is innocent. Right?

# 352 A:

Right.

# 353 Q:

You also testified that you were -you didn't really follow the trial. Is that true?

# 354 A:

I was not allowed to.

# 355 Q:

Okay.

# 356 A:

Because I was on subpoena.

# 357 Q:

So when you were-when were you subpoenaed?

# 358 A:

It was January of '94.

# 359 Q:

So did you watch-

# 360 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

'95.

# 361 MR. KARMA:

'95, perhaps?

# 362 CORA FISCHMAN:

Oh, I'm sorry. '95.

# 363

BY MR. BREWER:

# 364 Q:

Did you watch any televised coverage of the trial after January of '95?

# 365 A:

I was not interested. Off and on, you know, I would read the news, but not really-I didn't watch it every day, no.

# 366 Q:

Well, did you watch any of the televised coverage at all after you were subpoenaed in January of 1995?

# 367 A:

Watch at all?

# 368 Q:

Yes.

# 369 A:

How can you? I mean, every channel was-yes, I would say yes.

# 370 Q:

Okay. Well, they told you not to, didn't they?

# 371 A:

Yes.

# 372 Q:

Okay. Did you continue to watch periodic coverage of the trial?

# 373 A:

No, I didn't watch periodically, no.

# 374 Q:

Did you watch at all?

# 375 A:

How can you miss it? I mean, it's every day. It's every channel. And you talk about it. Yeah, I mean I saw a few, yeah, but didn't sit there for three hours watching it, no.

# 376 Q:

Well, it was important to you to watch the trial because you were hoping it would help answer the question as to who killed Nicole, your best friend. Right?

# 377 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 378 CORA FISCHMAN:

See, at the time I wasn't really interested in the trial because I couldn't stand watching it and-to me it was boring, anyway. It was boring. Got to be too long, so...

# 379

BY MR. BREWER:

# 380 Q:

Well, did you resist watching the trial because you were afraid of some of the information that you might hear?

# 381 A:

No. Partly because I was on subpoena, I'm not supposed to watch it. So that's also part of the reason why I wasn't watching it.

# 382 Q:

Did Mr.-

# 383 A:

So I don't know what time I was going to be called, and, you know, I wasn't supposed to watch it, so...

# 384 Q:

Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Simpson's attorneys about whether you should watch the trial or not watch the trial?

# 385 A:

No, they never told me that.

# 386 Q:

When you first spoke with Mr. Simpson, that was by telephone after his arrest, correct, when he was incarcerated?

# 387 A:

Yes.

# 388 Q:

And you spoke with him at the wake, correct, which has already been described?

# 389 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 390 Q:

Was that the sum total of your conversation: Pounding on his chest and then making the comment that you made?

# 391 A:

That was-yeah, that was pretty much, yes.

# 392 Q:

Did you speak with him at the funeral?

# 393 A:

No. I must have gone and, you know, said hello, but not-not-no major conversation.

# 394 Q:

While you were at the wake, were there conversations between you and Nicole's friends about Mr. Simpson's possible involvement in the murder?

# 395 A:

At the time we couldn't talk because we were all shocked, so we were-no.

# 396 Q:

Were you talking about it among yourselves quietly, whispering that- you know, what had happened, what type of information had been disseminated through the media?

# 397 A:

I don't think we were talking like that.

# 398 Q:

Did you ever overhear any conversations between Mr. Simpson and anyone else at the wake with respect to whether he was involved in this murder?

# 399 A:

I ever heard?

# 400 Q:

Did you overhear any conversations between Mr. Simpson and anyone else with respect to whether he was involved in the murder?

# 401 A:

No.

# 402 Q:

At the funeral did you overhear any conversations between Mr. Simpson and anyone else wherein there was a discussion concerning the facts and circumstances of the murders?

# 403 A:

No.

# 404 Q:

Did you talk with anyone at the funeral with respect to whether Mr. Simpson was possibly the person who killed Nicole?

# 405 A:

Did I talk to anyone?

# 406 Q:

At the funeral, yes.

# 407 A:

Did I talk at the funeral with anyone. Yeah, I talked to-I talked to a lot of people. I mean, I talked to Faye in the car-

# 408 Q:

Did you talk about-well, let's take Faye. Did you and Faye talk about OJ. Simpson possibly being the person who killed Nicole?

# 409 A:

No. When we were in the car, we talked about-about-actually about Ron. I said, you know, "You were giggling." Who was?" She asked me if I spoke to Nicole that evening. I said no.

And I asked her if she did, and she said, "Yes, we spoke around 9:30,. and I told you that they were giggling and stuff like that, yeah.

# 410 Q:

Did you have any discussions with Faye that were specific to whether OJ. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 411 A:

Must have, yes, yes.

# 412 Q:

You must have?

# 413 A:

Probably, because I'm not sure. I mean, it was like that time we were all grieving. We were all shocked. We didn't know. So I would say yes, we talked about who did it.

# 414 Q:

Okay. When you say "we," who is "we"?

# 415 A:

Who did it? Well, you know, we talked with the Browns, with Kris- you know, the Jenners were there, [Name Deleted], you know.

# 416 Q:

Okay. When you say "they" were there, were you all in this limousine having this discussion?

# 417 A:

Yeah. Not the Browns, but I mean in the limousine, yes.

# 418 Q:

So was there some generalized discussion in the limousine ride with respect to whether Mr. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 419 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 420 CORA FISCHMAN:

No, we didn't really talk that much. We really-we just

# 421

BY MR. BREWER:

# 422 Q:

My question is whether there was any, not whether you talked about it a lot or a little. Was there any discussion in the limousine ride-

# 423 A:

Yes.

# 424 Q:

-with respect to whether OJ. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 425 A:

Yes.

# 426 Q:

And who was discussing that?

# 427 A:

Who?

# 428 Q:

Yes.

# 429 A:

Everyone.

# 430 Q:

Well, what did Christian Reichardt say about it?

# 431 ROBERT BAKER:

Was he in the car?

# 432 MICHAEL BREWER:

I don't know. She said "everyone."

# 433 Q:

Was he in the car?

# 434 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

She said he was in the car.

# 435 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes, he was in the car.

# 436

BY MR. BREWER:

# 437 Q:

What did Christian Reichardt say?

# 438 A:

Christian said that-actually, you know what? They were all-we were quiet. We were not talking there.

# 439 Q:

Ma'am, you just said that there was some discussion-

# 440 A:

I'm getting confused here.

# 441 Q:

Okay. Well, let's just refocus on my question. You are in a limousine ride-

# 442 A:

Let me tell you what happened, then.

# 443 MR. KARMA:

Is that all right?

# 444

BY MR. BREWER:

# 445 Q:

Yeah, tell me what happened.

# 446 PHILIP KRAMER:

Go ahead.

# 447 CORA FISCHMAN:

Well, at the time we were all crying; we were shocked. Christian and Faye were not talking okay, so we were talking about her- the intervention more. I said, "What happened?" And to me that was- and then we said, "Do you think he might have killed"-yeah, we talked about-yeah, sure we did.

# 448

BY MR. BREWER:

# 449 Q:

Okay. Well, that's what I want to focus on.

# 450 A:

Yeah, but nobody answered yes or no. It was an open question because of what the media was feeding us, yes.

# 451 Q:

Who raised the question? Who was the first one in that limousine that said, "Do you think OJ. could have done it?"

# 452 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 453

BY MR. BREWER:

# 454 Q:

I mean, who started the conversation?

# 455 A:

I don't know.

# 456 Q:

Did you?

# 457 A:

No, I don't know. I don't think so.

# 458 Q:

Okay. Did you say anything when that question was thrown out for discussion?

# 459 A:

We were just- we were shocked, so I don't remember. It was-we were all shocked.

# 460 Q:

Well, do you recall anyone in the limousine who said, "I think OJ. did it"?

# 461 A:

No, no one said that.

# 462 Q:

Do you recall anyone who said, "I think OJ. did it"?

# 463 A:

No, no one said that.

# 464 Q:

Do you recall anyone who said, "OJ did not do it"?

# 465 A:

No, no one said that.

# 466 Q:

What was the general tenor of the discussion when somebody said, "Do you think OJ. did it." Were people saying he did or he didn't or discussing the evidence? What exactly was being said?

# 467 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation and leading a la Petrocelli.

# 468 CORA FISCHMAN:

We were all quiet. We were shocked. So we were saying, "Do you think OJ. did it?" And that was it. It was like a question, a big question in our mind. But we didn't draw a conclusion. We were just like in disbelief.

# 469

BY MR. BREWER:

# 470 Q:

Okay. That's the best you can do relating to us what discussion there was in the limousine relative to whether Mr. Simpson was responsible for the murder?

# 471 A:

Yes.

# 472 Q:

How about at the funeral itself? Were there any further discussions between you and anyone else with respect to Mr. Simpson's possible involvement?

# 473 A:

At the funeral? Actually, I told Kato, I said, you know, "They called me. You're the other suspect here," and we kinda kid around, "and I told the media there was no way you were gonna be a suspect. You don't even"-you know, "you can't even hurt a fly." So that was one of our conversation, yeah.

# 474 Q:

Okay. And you were relating to Kato a conversation that you had had with the police where they asked you questions about Kato?

# 475 A:

Yes.

# 476 Q:

And you knew right away that Kato couldn't possibly be a suspect. Right?

# 477 A:

There was no way. No way.

# 478 Q:

And so in your mind you ruled out immediately Kato Kaelin as a suspect because of what you knew about Kato.

# 479 A:

Yes.

# 480 Q:

That he wasn't violent?

# 481 A:

Kato?

# 482 Q:

Yes. He was not violent.

# 483 A:

He was not violent, yes.

# 484 Q:

He had never had any violent episodes with Nicole. Right?

# 485 A:

Yes.

# 486 Q:

As far as you knew, Nicole wasn't afraid of Kato, was she?

# 487 A:

No, Nicole was not afraid of Kato.

# 488 Q:

Do you recall any other discussions, other than this conversation with Kato, while you were at the funeral with respect to whether Mr. Simpson was responsible for Nicole's death?

# 489 A:

It was also Judy told me, you know.

# 490 Q:

What did Judy say?

# 491 A:

Judy said, "Cora," you know, something like, "do you think he did it?" you know.

# 492 Q:

What did you say?

# 493 A:

I said, "I don't know. I don't know."

# 494 Q:

And that was the sum total-

# 495 A:

Yeah.

# 496 Q:

-of that conversation?

# 497 A:

Right.

# 498 Q:

Did you have any other conversations with anyone else other than Kato end Judy at the funeral with respect to whether Mr. Simpson was responsible for these murders?

# 499 A:

We were all quiet. I mean, we were mourning. We were mourning. I mean, you know, we were skill shocked and confused, so-we didn't draw any conclusion. Everything was a big question mark to us.

# 500 Q:

Now, those are the only two times during the week of the 13th that you actually saw Mr. Simpson. Is that true ? At the wake and at the funeral.

# 501 A:

Yes.

# 502 Q:

I think you had mentioned actually another occasion: Where you saw him with Mr. Kardashian. Is that true?

# 503 A:

Oh, yes, yes.

# 504 Q:

Okay. So those are the only three occasions where you physically saw Mr. Simpson during the week of the 13th?

# 505 A:

Yes.

# 506 Q:

And I take it you watched the chase on the 17th?

# 507 A:

Yes.

# 508 Q:

Okay. And did you draw a conclusion that Mr. Simpson was going to commit suicide?

# 509 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 510 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 511

BY MR. BREWER:

# 512 Q:

And how did you factor in that information, if you did at all, with respect to our belief that Mr. Simpson may or may not be responsible for the death of Nicole?

# 513 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 514 CORA FISCHMAN:

How?

# 515

BY MR. BREWER:

# 516 Q:

Yeah.

# 517 A:

At the time when I sew the chase, I was in disbelief. I said, "What's going on now? What is he doing now?" So I only-all I thought was the kids. I said, "I can't believe what will happen to Sydney and Justin."

# 518 Q:

The next time that you spoke with Mr. Simpson or saw him was when he telephoned you from jail. Is that correct?

# 519 A:

Right.

# 520 Q:

And that was after Faye Resnick had published her book. Is that correct?

# 521 A:

Barbara Walters. After Barbara Walters.

# 522 Q:

After you did the Barbara Walters?

# 523 A:

Yes.

# 524 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson indicate to you that he saw that on TV?

# 525 A:

No, he didn't see it on TV. He got a call from a friend. He spoke to a friend and-from New York, I think, and that his friend said that "Cora Fischman spoke, and by far you could tell that she was the only real friend of Nicole among the three who spoke."

# 526 Q:

So it was your understanding that the call was instigated- Mr. Simpson's call was instigated because he received a call from a friend in New York who told him that you had been on Barbara Walters.

# 527 A:

Exactly.

# 528 Q:

And that's what Mr. Simpson told you.

# 529 A:

Yes.

# 530 Q:

And did he ask you questions at that time about conversations you had had with Nicole in the past concerning OJ. Simpson?

# 531 A:

Oh, yeah. I mean, we were both crying. That was the first time I spoke to him. We were crying, and basically we were-he was asking me, "What happened here? What happened?" you know, and we were just-we were both crying, trying to relive Nicole.

I actually even told him, I said, "Why are you doing this to me? Why are we reliving Nicole?" so...

# 532 Q:

Did he ask you about prior incidents where Nicole told you-I'm sorry. Strike that.

Did he ask you about conversations you and Nicole had had where Nicole related to you incidents where Mr. Simpson had beat her? Did he ask you questions about that?

# 533 A:

If Nicole?

# 534 Q:

Told you.

# 535 ROBERT BAKER:

He is asking if OJ. told you about what-

# 536 CORA FISCHMAN:

OJ. never told me anything.

# 537 MICHAEL BREWER:

Don't let him reask my questions.

# 538 ROBERT BAKER:

I get lost in these triple hearsays.

# 539 CORA FISCHMAN:

I mean, it's-

# 540

BY MR. BREWER:

# 541 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson ask you questions about the communications you and Nicole had concerning beatings in the relationship?

# 542 A:

No.

# 543 Q:

Did he ask you questions whether Nicole had told you about the '89 incident?

# 544 A:

Did who again?

# 545 Q:

Did OJ. Simpson ask you whether Nicole had told you about the '89 incident?

# 546 A:

Yes.

# 547 Q:

And that was during this phone call?

# 548 A:

Oh, no, not on the phone call.

# 549 Q:

That's what I am talking about, the phone call-

# 550 A:

Oh, the phone call?

# 551 Q:

What I am trying to find out is what he asked you about in the phone call.

# 552 A:

Oh, I don't know about the phone call. I mean, it was like-not that, no.

# 553 Q:

How long was the phone call?

# 554 A:

I don't know. I don't remember. Ten minutes?

# 555 Q:

Ten minutes?

# 556 A:

Five minutes? It was not a long conversation. He just thanked me for being a friend of Nicole's "And by far you're Nicole's only friend."

# 557 Q:

Did he ever say he didn't commit the murder?

# 558 A:

Yeah, he said that.

# 559 Q:

Okay. Did you ask him at that time about some of the evidence that was

# 560 A:

No.

# 561 Q:

-had a tendency to implicate him.'

# 562 A:

No.

# 563 Q:

Didn't you want to know?

# 564 A:

Actually I said to him-I was blaming. I said, you know, "I told you, why didn't you go to Florida?. You know, I was kind of blaming him. I said, "Why didn't you go to Florida? Why didn't you go? You could have moved," you know, so that's what happened.

# 565 Q:

What's the implication of that statement, "Why didn't you go to Florida?"

# 566 A:

Well, to me I thought that if they started a new life in a different state, then probably Nicole would have still been married to OJ.

# 567 Q:

When OJ. Simpson called you on the telephone from jail, that very first call, you believed he killed Nicole didn't you?

# 568 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading. Argumentative.

# 569 CORA FISCHMAN:

Did I believe?

# 570

BY MR. BREWER:

# 571 Q:

Yes. In your mind you believed that OJ. Simpson had killed Nicole when he first called you.

# 572 A:

I thought about it, yes.

# 573 Q:

Okay. And during that discussion he told you he did not kill her. Is that right?

# 574 A:

Yes.

# 575 Q:

Did you ask him any question at all about any of the evidence that you had learned about or his explanation?

# 576 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 577 CORA FISCHMAN:

Did I ask any questions about the evidence? No.

# 578

BY MR. BREWER:

# 579 Q:

Yeah. For example, how did blood get at Rockingham? Did you ask him about that?

# 580 A:

No.

# 581 Q:

Did you ask him about the blood at Bundy?

# 582 A:

No.

# 583 Q:

Did you ask him about the glove that was at Rockingham?

# 584 A:

No.

# 585 Q:

Did you ask him how blood got in his Bronco?

# 586 A:

No.

# 587 Q:

Did you have any interest in learning any of that information?

# 588 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative. Asked and answered.

# 589 CORA FISCHMAN:

At the time I was- I didn't ask him, yeah. Probably I was in disbelief, so...

# 590

BY MR. BREWER:

# 591 Q:

Well, this was a person who hopefully could answer these questions for you and had firsthand knowledge of this. Right?

# 592 A:

Yes.

# 593 Q:

Is there any reason-Were you afraid of the answers?

# 594 A:

If I was afraid of the answers?

# 595 Q:

Yeah.

# 596 A:

I was-I'm not afraid of the answers.

# 597 Q:

Were you afraid that he may tell you "Yeah, I did it"?

# 598 A:

Actually I wanted to know if he did it, yeah.

# 599 Q:

Why didn't you ask him.,

# 600 A:

You want me to ask him.' I didn't ask him. No, I didn't. I didn't ask him.

# 601 Q:

I guess what we are all wondering is: You're Nicole's best friend. Why haven't you ever asked him point- blank if he did it or ask him for his explanation with respect to some of this evidence?

# 602 A:

Actually he asked me, he said, "Cora, do you think I'm capable of killing Nicole?"

I said-and I said, "Only you can answer that, OJ. "And I says, "Well, you know, do you think you were framed?"

Yes, we did talk about that.

# 603 Q:

Okay. And when he asked you that question, whether you thought he was capable of killing Nicole, one of the things that you didn't say was no. Right?

# 604 A:

Yes.

# 605 Q:

Because you did think he was capable, didn't you?

# 606 A:

What?

# 607 Q:

You did think he was capable.

# 608 A:

Everybody's capable, yes.

# 609 Q:

particularly someone who had a history of violence with his wife. Right?

# 610 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 611 CORA FISCHMAN:

See, I didn't know that OJ. was a violent person. I didn't know that.

# 612

BY MR. BREWER:

# 613 Q:

You didn't know that?

# 614 A:

No.

# 615 Q:

So-

# 616 A:

I knew that he had a violent temper. You know, when he screams, he gets mad. He has a temper.

# 617 Q:

You knew that firsthand.

# 618 A:

Nicole told me.

# 619 Q:

Well, you knew that from your own personal observations, too, didn't you?

# 620 A:

I never saw him like that.

# 621 Q:

Well, Nicole told you that he had beaten her in 1989. Right?

# 622 A:

Yes, because they were all drunk at that party, yes.

# 623 Q:

Did you think that their being drunk excused Mr. Simpson from beating his wife?

# 624 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 625 CORA FISCHMAN:

No, it's not an excuse, no.

# 626

BY MR. BREWER:

# 627 Q:

Well-

# 628 A:

I mean-

# 629 Q:

Go ahead.

# 630 A:

Well, no.

# 631 Q:

So you knew at the time that you spoke to Mr. Simpson that he had inflicted-he had had a violent encounter with his wife. Right?

# 632 A:

Yes.

# 633 Q:

And you knew he had a bad temper. Right?

# 634 A:

Yes.

# 635 Q:

You knew Nicole was afraid of him.

# 636 A:

Yes.

# 637 Q:

You knew Nicole was concerned about her safety not because she was going out at night, but because she was afraid of OJ. Simpson. You knew that.

# 638 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 639

BY MR. BREWER:

# 640 Q:

Right?

# 641 A:

She was going out with who?

# 642 Q:

You knew she was afraid of her safety not because of the fact she was going out at night with Faye Resnick, but because of OJ. Simpson. That was the fear that she had.

# 643 A:

Yes.

# 644 Q:

And based upon all that information, you knew that Mr. Simpson had it within his ability to kill Nicole.

# 645 A:

Yes.

# 646 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 647

BY MR. BREWER:

# 648 Q:

Has Mr. Simpson ever told you he was framed?

# 649 A:

What?

# 650 Q:

Has Mr. Simpson ever told you he was framed?

# 651 A:

No.

# 652 Q:

Has he ever offered any explanation for any of the evidence in this case to you, ever?

# 653 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 654 CORA FISCHMAN:

Explained? No.

# 655

BY MR. BREWER:

# 656 Q:

Have you ever had any discussions with Robert Kardashian in connection with this case?

# 657 A:

Robert Kardashian?

# 658 Q:

Yes.

# 659 A:

No.

# 660 Q:

Have you ever had any discussions with Al Cowlings?

# 661 A:

Al Cowlings?

# 662 Q:

Yes.

# 663 A:

Yes.

# 664 Q:

When did you first have any discussion? Let's talk about after June 13th, have you had any discussions with Al Cowlings?

# 665 A:

We went for a walk one time down San Vicente.

# 666 Q:

When was that?

# 667 A:

When?

# 668 Q:

Yes.

# 669 A:

Oh, God, around July-no- June, later part of June.

# 670 Q:

Okay. In the month of the murders?

# 671 A:

Yes.

# 672 Q:

And how did that come about, that you were taking a walk with Al Cowlings?

# 673 A:

Well, we were frying to commiserate, trying to understand what really happened.

# 674 Q:

When you say "what really happened," are you talking about who killed Nicole?

# 675 A:

Yes.

# 676 Q:

And did you ask-did you have a discussion with Mr. Cowlings about Mr. Simpson possibly killing Nicole?

# 677 A:

Yeah. He said-at first he said- at first he thought that OJ. did it.

# 678 Q:

And Mr. Cowlings-

# 679 A:

That was the first thing that entered his mind.

# 680 Q:

So Mr. Cowlings told you that when he first learned of the murders, he concluded that OJ. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 681 A:

Yes.

# 682 Q:

And did Mr. Cowlings tell you that Mr. Simpson had said anything to him that confirmed that initial suspicion?

# 683 A:

No. 1

# 684 Q:

Did you have any discussions with Mr. Cowlings with respect to the infamous slow-speed chase on June 17th?

# 685 A:

No.

# 686 Q:

Did Mr. Cowlings relate to you anything at all that Mr. Simpson said to him during the week of the 13th?

# 687 A:

No.

# 688 Q:

Did Mr. Cowlings indicate to you that he had changed his view from his initial suspicion that Mr. Simpson was involved in these murders?

# 689 A:

Yes.

# 690 Q:

And what did he tell you?

# 691 A:

He said, "By talking to OJ.," he said, "there was no way he could have done it."

# 692 Q:

And did he tell you that OJ. had explained, for example, his whereabouts at the time of the murders?

# 693 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 694 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know. I'm- yeah, I guess. I don't know.

# 695

BY MR. BREWER:

# 696 Q:

Well, did he tell you?

# 697 A:

Did he tell me?

# 698 Q:

Yes.

# 699 A:

No.

# 700 Q:

For example, did he say, "OJ. couldn't have done it because he was in Chicago" or "he was at a party," or something else?

# 701 A:

No, he didn't explain. He didn't say that.

# 702 Q:

Was there any discussion between you and Mr. Cowlings with respect to Simpson's explanation regarding certain evidence in the case?

# 703 A:

No.

# 704 Q:

So other than Al Cowlings' statement that after talking with OJ. he -"I don't think he could have done it," did he tell you any of the particulars that were related to Mr. Cowlings by Mr. Simpson that supported Cowlings' belief?

# 705 A:

No.

# 706 Q:

Was that the only conversation you ever had with Al Cowlings?

# 707 A:

Yes.

# 708 Q:

How long did that conversation take place?

# 709 A:

I'd say 15 minutes.

# 710 Q:

And was that kind of a walk that you took just to kind of commiserate?

# 711 A:

Yes. 3

# 712 Q:

And during the course of that walk, this topic came up as to whether Mr. Simpson could have killed Nicole. Correct'

# 713 A:

Well, I asked him, you know. I mean, I wanted answers, so...

# 714 Q:

So you asked-

# 715 A:

And then we talked about the friends, you know, what happened, and the kids. That's pretty much- where were the kids that day. So he told me that Arnelle took the kids and stuff like that.

# 716 Q:

Did Mr. Cowlings tell you anything about discussions he had with OJ. Simpson concerning the kids, taking care of the kids or providing for the kids?

# 717 A:

Did who? Did OJ.-I mean if A.C told me?

# 718 Q:

Yeah.

# 719 A:

I don't remember. No, I don't remember.

# 720 Q:

Have you ever had any conversations with Skip Taft?

# 721 A:

Skip?

# 722 Q:

Yes.

# 723 A:

I don't even know him.

# 724 Q:

Cathy Randa?

# 725 A:

I met Cathy two weeks ago.

# 726 Q:

And how did you meet Cathy?

# 727 A:

At OJ.'s house. He said, "This is Cathy."

I said, "Hi." That was the first time I met her.

# 728 Q:

Did you talk about this case at all?

# 729 A:

No.

# 730 Q:

Did you talk about the facts and circumstances of the murders?

# 731 A:

No.

# 732 Q:

Did you have any discussion beyond just an introduction, saying hello?

# 733 A:

That was pretty much my conversation with her.

# 734 Q:

When you met with Mr. Leonard, did he show you photographs?

# 735 A:

No.

# 736 Q:

Did he show you any statements?

# 737 A:

No.

# 738 Q:

And you understood OJ. Simpson was deposed in this case. Right? Did you know that?

# 739 A:

Yes.

# 740 Q:

You know he testified under oath?

# 741 A:

Yes.

# 742 Q:

You know he testified with respect to his alibi or alleged alibi?

# 743 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 744 CORA FISCHMAN:

Who?

# 745

BY MR. BREWER:

# 746 Q:

You understand that Mr. Simpson testified with respect to his alleged alibi at the time of the murders?

# 747 A:

With his alleged alibi?

# 748 Q:

Yeah. Where he was at the time of the murders. Did you know that he provided an explanation under oath?

# 749 A:

I didn't know. I didn't know that.

# 750 Q:

You didn't hear that?

# 751 A:

No.

# 752 Q:

Did you know he testified with respect to the origin of the cut on his finger? Did you hear about that?

# 753 A:

I thought that he had a cut from -in Chicago.

# 754 PHILIP KRAMER:

That's not- the question is: Are you aware whether or not Mr. Simpson testified of his version under oath about where he got the cut, in his deposition in this case? Is that the question?

# 755 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 756

BY MR. BREWER:

# 757 Q:

Do you know that?

# 758 A:

I didn't know that.

# 759 Q:

Did you hear anything that Mr. Simpson testified about from news accounts in connection with his deposition?

# 760 A:

No.

# 761 Q:

Have you ever-Do you read the newspaper on a daily basis?

# 762 A:

No.

# 763 Q:

Did you have any interest in finding out Mr. Simpson's explanation with respect to his alibi?

# 764 A:

I was just tired of it. No.

# 765 Q:

You didn't want anything to do with it?

# 766 A:

I just want to move on with my life. That's pretty much what I want.

# 767 Q:

As you sit here today, you have no interest in frying to determine who's responsible for Nicole's death?

# 768 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 769 CORA FISCHMAN:

It's not that interest. I mean, it would be nice to find the real killers, but I have a life with three kids, and I think my family has suffered and my kids have suffered enough. I think it's time to move on. That's all. I figure Nicole's been taken care of, okay, that's fine.

# 770

BY MR. BREWER:

# 771 Q:

That what?

# 772 A:

Nicole is up there already, so that's how I see things. All I want to do now is take care of the kids, and I will take care of Sydney and Justin if they went me to. That's all.

# 773 Q:

It doesn't really matter to you if OJ. Simpson murdered Nicole or not, does it?

# 774 A:

Of course it matters to me. I wish if you could prove it, that's fine.

# 775 Q:

Well, you are not really interested in the proof.

# 776 A:

You know what? It's not that. My kids are suffering already, and Sydney and Justin are suffering. They're- everybody's suffering from the whole thing.

# 777 Q:

But the question-

# 778 A:

They have lost their mom already. Okay?

# 779 Q:

And does it matter to you why they lost their mom or who's responsible for the loss of their mother? Is that an important question?

# 780 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered 12 times.

# 781 CORA FISCHMAN:

Does it matter?

# 782 ROBERT BAKER:

And harassing now.

# 783

BY MR. BREWER:

# 784 Q:

Yes.

# 785 A:

Of course it matters to me.

# 786 Q:

And would it matter to you if OJ. Simpson is the person that caused these children to be without their mother?

# 787 ROBERT BAKER:

Same objection.

# 788 CORA FISCHMAN:

If it matters to me?

# 789

BY MR. BREWER:

# 790 Q:

Yes.

# 791 A:

Yes, of course it matters.

# 792 Q:

And would it matter to you in terms of the safety of your own children, leaving them with someone that you believe may have murdered Nicole Brown Simpson?

# 793 A:

Of course it matters to me.

# 794 Q:

In that regard, have you undertaken any further investigation in the last two or three months to determine to your satisfaction whether Mr. Simpson is the person that's responsible for Nicole's death?

# 795 A:

Me?

# 796 Q:

Yes.

# 797 A:

Getting an investigator for this?

# 798 Q:

No, no. Just-

# 799 A:

Or trying to investigate it?

# 800 Q:

Reading a newspaper, following his deposition testimony, asking him questions, things of that nature.

# 801 A:

No. I'm just not interested because I was just tired of it. I want to move on.

# 802 Q:

By the way, when did you hear that OJ. Simpson cut his finger in Chicago?

# 803 A:

Through the news. The news. You know, I heard it over the news. So it was the following day or-I don't know. During that week.

# 804 Q:

Did you notice that week whether his finger was bandaged either at the wake or the funeral?

# 805 A:

Oh, I noticed at the funeral.

# 806 Q:

Did you ask him about it?

# 807 A:

No, I didn't talk to him about it.

# 808 MICHAEL BREWER:

I don't have anything further.

# 809 ROBERT BAKER:

Take a quick break.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 4:42.

# 810 (Recess.)

# 811

EXAMINATION

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Cora Fischman

OJ. has a very, very strong voice, you know, and it's a scary voice.

Fischman relaying Nicole's own words about fearing OJ's voice — attributed directly to Nicole, establishing that Nicole verbalized physical fear to her closest friend.

Cora Fischman

He asked me, 'Cora, do you think I'm capable of killing Nicole?' I said — 'Only you can answer that, OJ.'

Devastating admission: when given the direct opportunity to tell OJ he was incapable of killing Nicole, she refused. Brewer follows by confirming she didn't say 'no' because she did think him capable.

Cora Fischman

He said, 'By talking to OJ.,' he said, 'there was no way he could have done it.'

Fischman recounting AC Cowlings' account — but notably, Cowlings initially believed OJ did it, and only changed his mind after talking to OJ directly, with no specifics offered.

Cora Fischman

I told him, I said, 'Why are you doing this to me? Why are we reliving Nicole?' ... I said, 'Why didn't you go to Florida? Why didn't you go? You could have moved.'

Fischman's reaction during OJ's jail call reveals she was blaming him for the situation — implicitly treating him as the cause of Nicole's death even while not explicitly accusing him.

Robert Baker

That's a worthy 'Could you be more vague' objection.

Baker's sardonic objection to a confusing question, leading to a rare moment of levity when Brewer retorted he thought it was copyrighted and Petrocelli quipped 'Like father, like son.'

Evidence (6)

Informal

Blood found on the Rockingham driveway

discussed as media-reported evidence that reaffirmed Fischman's initial suspicion of OJ

Informal

Glove found at Rockingham property

discussed; Fischman says she doubted the glove evidence during the trial

Informal

Blood found at Bundy identified as OJ Simpson's

discussed as media-reported evidence implicating OJ

Informal

The socks — no blood found on surrounding white carpet leading to OJ's bedroom

cited by Fischman as the key piece of evidence that made her doubt OJ's guilt

Informal

1989 domestic violence incident in which OJ beat Nicole

confirmed by Fischman through multiple leading questions; she noted 'they were all drunk at that party'

Informal

Blood in OJ's Bronco

raised by Brewer as a question Fischman never asked OJ about during his jail call

Notable Exchanges (5)

Michael Brewer•Cora Fischman

Brewer establishes that when OJ called from jail and asked Fischman 'Do you think I'm capable of killing Nicole?', she responded 'Only you can answer that, OJ.' — declining to exonerate him. Brewer then confirms she believed he was capable, particularly given the history of violence.

devastating

Cora Fischman•Michael Brewer

Fischman recounts that AC Cowlings told her his very first thought upon hearing of the murders was that OJ did it — and only changed his view after speaking directly to OJ, without sharing any specific exculpatory information.

revealing

Cora Fischman•Michael Brewer

Fischman initially says the limousine group at the funeral was quiet and not really talking, then contradicts herself and admits they did discuss whether OJ killed Nicole, then walks it back again before finally settling that the question was raised but no one answered yes or no.

strategic

Cora Fischman•Michael Brewer

Fischman describes arriving at the Bundy murder scene in jogging clothes, being questioned by two detectives about OJ's attire and shoes at the recital, and immediately thinking 'he did it' — assuming OJ had been caught.

revealing

Cora Fischman•Michael Brewer

When asked why she never directly asked OJ about the blood, the glove, or the Bronco during his jail call, Fischman has no satisfying answer. Brewer frames it as her being afraid of what she might hear.

strategic

Light Moments (3)

Robert Baker / Michael Brewer / Daniel Petrocelli

Baker objects 'That's a worthy Could you be more vague objection.' Brewer retorts he thought that phrase was copyrighted. Petrocelli says 'Like father, like son.' Baker apologizes.

John Kelly / Michael Brewer

After Petrocelli jokes 'Like father, like son,' Kelly deadpans 'The mike wouldn't reach' — explaining why he couldn't cover for Baker in time. Brewer: 'Got to cover my back there, Kelly.'

Cora Fischman

Fischman recounts telling Kato Kaelin at the funeral that police had named him as a potential suspect, and they 'kinda kid around' about it, with Fischman assuring him there was 'no way' he could be a suspect because 'you can't even hurt a fly.'

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Cora Fischman

prior inconsistent statement / internal contradiction

Brewer gets Fischman to admit she initially believed OJ killed Nicole, drawing on Nicole's stated fears, the 1989 beating, and the media evidence — undermining her current stated belief that he is innocent, which she says was formed when Fuhrman testimony and the socks raised doubts.

⚔ Cora Fischman

impeachment by omission

Brewer presses Fischman on why, during OJ's jail call, she never once asked him about the blood, the glove, the Bronco, or his alibi — despite this being her best opportunity to get answers about who killed her best friend.

⚔ Cora Fischman

contradiction / inconsistency

Fischman first denies watching the trial after being subpoenaed, then admits she watched it when Brewer points out it was unavoidable on every channel — suggesting she was less compliant with the subpoena restriction than she claimed.

⚔ OJ Simpson (indirectly)

third-party admission through witness

Through Fischman, Brewer extracts that AC Cowlings — OJ's closest friend and the driver of the Bronco — initially believed OJ committed the murders, only changing his view after speaking directly to OJ without conveying any specific exculpatory facts.

Witness Demeanor

Frequently confused by compound or complex questions, requiring rephrasing

Contradicts herself on the limousine discussion — first says quiet/mourning, then admits they discussed OJ's guilt

Emotional when recounting hearing of Nicole's death and the jail call with OJ

Occasionally volunteers information beyond the question (the '1989 — they were all drunk' qualifier)

Appears to be managing what she reveals — careful but not deceptive

Gets date wrong (January '94 vs. '95 for subpoena), corrected by Petrocelli

Objections

28 objections (0 sustained, 28 overruled)

4 Redirect examination of Ms. Fischman by John Kelly

Examiner: John Kelly • Type: redirect • 408 utterances

🛡️ Robert Baker 👤 Philip Kramer 📜 John Kelly

John Kelly, representing Nicole's estate, examines Cora Fischman on a mid-May 1994 school incident where OJ intercepted her while she was driving his children, Nicole's threatening phone calls in 1992, and Fischman's National Enquirer lawsuit involving a photo of Nicole and OJ. The examination's sharpest moment comes when Kelly pins Fischman down: the only person Nicole ever said had threatened to kill her was OJ Simpson. The session also covers Fischman's housekeeper arrangements, her $13,000 payment for a Star Magazine article, and her dwindling contact with people in Nicole's circle after the murders.

# 1

BY MR. KELLY:

# 2 Q:

Good evening, Miss Fischman. My name is John Kelly, and I represent Nicole's estate. I am going to ask you...Miss Fischman, I think you indicated that in a conversation with Mr. Simpson, that he told you that you were Nicole's only true friend. Is that correct? Or her best friend?

# 3 A:

Who? Nicole-OJ. told me?

# 4 Q:

Yes.

# 5 A:

Yes.

# 6 Q:

And when was this conversation?

# 7 A:

When I did the Barbara Walters. After I did the Barbara Walters.

# 8 Q:

Okay. And why did he consider you Nicole's only true friend?

# 9 A:

Why?

# 10 Q:

Yeah.

# 11 A:

I don't know.

# 12 Q:

Was that because you were the only one of Nicole's friends that didn't consider him guilty?

# 13 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 14 CORA FISCHMAN:

No, no. I think what happened was I was the one that- I saw Nicole every day, so we assumed that-you know, we were best friends. We saw each other every day.

# 15

BY MR. KELLY:

# 16 Q:

Okay. It had nothing to do with what you had said?

# 17 A:

No.

# 18 Q:

Okay. I want to go back to this incident in mid May where-

# 19 A:

Mid May?

# 20 Q:

Mid May of 1994, where you had Sydney and Justin in your car-

# 21 A:

Right.

# 22 Q:

-faking them to school, and you saw Mr. Simpson.

# 23 A:

Uh-huh.

# 24 Q:

Now, this was during the time when Nicole was sick, wasn't it?

# 25 A:

Yes, I think so.

# 26 Q:

Okay. And you were driving the kids every day while she was sick?

# 27 A:

Not every day. No, she was still doing it, and then she and OJ. and I, the three of us were doing it, yeah, pretty much.

# 28 Q:

And do you recall whether this was after her birthday, this incident?

# 29 A:

After her birthday?

# 30 Q:

Yeah. She was sick on her birthday. Right?

# 31 A:

Yes.

# 32 Q:

Okay. And she was sick for a period of time after her birthday also.

# 33 A:

Yes.

# 34 Q:

Okay. And as best as you recall, did this incident with the children take place after her birthday?

# 35 A:

I think so, yes.

# 36 Q:

Okay. And who had arranged for you to pick up Sydney and Justin that morning?

# 37 A:

Who arranged?

# 38 Q:

Yeah.

# 39 A:

At that time I called Nicole and I

# 40 Q:

Okay. You offered to take them.'

# 41 A:

Yeah. I said, "Do you want me to take the kids?"

She said, "Okay, fine."

# 42 Q:

All right. And after you picked them up is when Nicole called you on the car phone?

# 43 A:

Yes.

# 44 Q:

Okay. So they had only been in the car for a matter of seconds?

# 45 A:

A second? 3

# 46 Q:

Yeah.

# 47 A:

No, not a second. Well, yeah, could be, yes.

# 48 Q:

Okay. And you pulled over immediately with Mr. Simpson behind you?

# 49 A:

Yeah. He told me to pull over, yes.

# 50 Q:

Okay. And did he get out of his car then?

# 51 A:

No.

# 52 Q:

Did you get out of your car?

# 53 A:

No.

# 54 Q:

You just let the children out of your car?

# 55 A:

Yes.

# 56 Q:

Okay. And after you did, did you continue on to the school then?

# 57 A:

Yes.

# 58 Q:

Okay. And when you dropped the children off there, did you see Mr. Simpson there at the school?

# 59 A:

Did I see Mr.-after the school? No.

# 60 Q:

No. I mean when you were dropping your kids off, did Mr. Simpson show up there with Sydney and Justin?

# 61 A:

Yeah, because he was in front of us. He was in front of us, so...

# 62 Q:

But what I am asking you: Do you recall seeing him at the school also?

# 63 A:

I don't remember.

# 64 Q:

Do you know as a matter-

# 65 A:

I mean-

# 66 Q:

Excuse me?

# 67 A:

I don't remember. I mean, I'm trying to remember, so probably later on

# 68 Q:

I would appreciate it if you could recall whether you actually saw Mr. Simpson in the Bentley at the school then.

# 69 A:

Well, he was-he was, what do you call, he was in front of us.

# 70 Q:

Right.

# 71 A:

So that was it. I didn't-

# 72 Q:

Did you follow him to the school then?

# 73 A:

I followed him. I was behind him, so I went to school.

# 74 Q:

Okay. But he didn't turn around and go back to the house with the kids?

# 75 A:

No.

# 76 Q:

You're certain about that?

# 77 A:

No, I'm not certain. I don't know.

# 78 Q:

Okay. Did you have any conversation with Nicole later that day regarding this incident?

# 79 A:

Later that day? Yes.

# 80 Q:

Okay. And did she say anything to you about Mr. Simpson coming back home with Sydney and Justin before he took them to school?

# 81 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 82 CORA FISCHMAN:

He didn't say that- she didn't say that.

# 83

BY MR. KELLY:

# 84 Q:

Okay. Did she ever discuss that with you?

# 85 A:

I don't think so, no.

# 86 Q:

And you don't know whether or not Mr. Simpson went back to Bundy before he took them to school?

# 87 A:

I don't know that. I don't know.

# 88 Q:

Okay. And you didn't see Sydney's reaction at all when she got out of the car to go back to Mr. Simpson?

# 89 ROBERT BAKER:

Got into the car?

# 90 JOHN KELLY:

To get into his car.

# 91 CORA FISCHMAN:

Well, they were- they jumped when they saw their dad. They went out and they went to the car. Justin jumped. He said, "That's daddy. Let's go," so...

# 92

BY MR. KELLY:

# 93 Q:

Okay.

# 94 A:

And I said, "Do you want me to take the kids?" So OJ. said, "No. I'll take the kids." That was it.

# 95 Q:

Well, how did he say that to you outside? Were you car to car?

# 96 A:

Yeah. Well, you know, we were saying- I said, "Do you want me to take the kids?"

And he said, "No. I'll take the kids."

# 97 Q:

He didn't raise his voice at you or

# 98 A:

Well, we were screaming because we were out-you know, he says, "I want to take the kids." So actually- then I called Nicole. I said, "Is OJ. mad?"

She says, "Yeah, you know, I just spoke to him."

So that's it.

# 99 Q:

Well, did he appear angry to you?

# 100 A:

Yeah, I thought he was mad at me.

# 101 Q:

What exactly did he say to you?

# 102 A:

What exactly?

# 103 Q:

Yeah.

# 104 A:

He says, "I want my kids."

# 105 Q:

Anything else?

# 106 A:

That was it.

# 107 Q:

Did he appear to be angry to you also?

# 108 A:

See, at the time Nicole told me that he was mad at me because he thought that I was the one messing up the- you know, because of my affair. Yeah Nicole told me that OJ. was mad at me.

# 109 Q:

Okay. And you don't know anything about Mr. Simpson taking the kids home before they went to school?

# 110 A:

I didn't know that, no.

# 111 Q:

Okay. And you never discussed it with her after the fact either?

# 112 A:

No. No.

# 113 Q:

Okay. Now, you talked about the dangerous life Nicole was leading near the end there. Is that correct?

# 114 A:

Yes.

# 115 Q:

And it wasn't dangerous because she was going out drinking with Faye, was it?

# 116 A:

They were drinking a lot, yes. Dangerous life means, you know, they've had an accident. You know, that's what I mean by "dangerous life."

# 117 Q:

Nobody who was threatening to her that they had met in the recent past?

# 118 A:

No.

# 119 Q:

Okay. And with this 1992 incident when Nicole was receiving threatening phone calls-

# 120 A:

Yes.

# 121 Q:

-you're familiar with that?

# 122 A:

Uh-huh. Yes.

# 123 Q:

Nicole told you about it?

# 124 A:

Yes.

# 125 Q:

Okay. She knew who was making the phone calls, didn't she?

# 126 A:

At that time when there was phone call, no, she didn't know.

# 127 Q:

Did she eventually find out who it was?

# 128 A:

Yes.

# 129 Q:

Okay. And do you know whether or not Nicole actually went over to the person's place and confronted them?

# 130 A:

If I actually know?

# 131 Q:

Yeah.

# 132 A:

No, I don't know.

# 133 Q:

Did anybody tell you that?

# 134 A:

Nobody told me.

# 135 Q:

Okay. Do you know that after a short period of time those phone calls stopped coming to her?

# 136 A:

Yeah, it did stop, yes.

# 137 Q:

Did she ever mention them to you again?

# 138 A:

No.

# 139 Q:

Do you know how many of them she received?

# 140 A:

How many? I'm sorry.

# 141 Q:

Phone calls she received.

# 142 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 143 CORA FISCHMAN:

How many phone calls?

# 144

BY MR. KELLY:

# 145 Q:

Yeah, threatening phone calls.

# 146 A:

That time that guy was threatening. She was afraid of that guy, whoever the guy was calling. You're talking about 1992. Right?

# 147 Q:

Right.

# 148 A:

Yeah, she was scared.

# 149 Q:

Okay. But they stopped after a short period of time, did they not, the phone calls?

# 150 A:

Yes, because she reported that to the police report, yes.

# 151 Q:

Okay. And did she ever indicate to you that she ever got a threatening phone call again after that?

# 152 A:

No.

# 153 Q:

Okay. You said Nicole used to use "kill"

as a figure of speech?

# 154 A:

I'm sorry. What?

# 155 Q:

She used to use the word "kill" as a figure of speech?

# 156 A:

Yes.

# 157 Q:

Okay. She used to say like Judy would kill her or Faye would kill her?

# 158 A:

Yes.

# 159 Q:

Did she ever tell you that Judy had said she was going to kill her?

# 160 A:

Well, no-yeah, she said that, yes.

# 161 Q:

That Judy had said it to her?

# 162 A:

What?

# 163 Q:

That Judy had actually said to Nicole that she was going to kill her?

# 164 A:

Oh, no, not Judy, but Nicole had told me.

# 165 Q:

Okay, but-

# 166 A:

Not Judy, no. Not Judy.

# 167 Q:

No. And Nicole didn't tell that you Faye had said she was going to kill her, did she?

# 168 A:

No.

# 169 Q:

Okay. The only person that Nicole ever told you had said that they were going to kill her was Mr. Simpson, was it not?

KEY QUOTE

# 170 A:

Yes. Right.

# 171 Q:

Okay. The only person you know that there was enormous amount of evidence against and who had said they were going to kill Nicole was Mr. Simpson. Isn't that true also?

# 172 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague. Leading.

# 173 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 174

BY MR. KELLY:

# 175 Q:

Okay. With regard to this National Enquirer lawsuit you're involved in, could you tell me what is it you're looking for from that lawsuit?

# 176 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant. Violates her privacy.

# 177 CORA FISCHMAN:

What is it I'm looking for?

# 178

BY MR. KELLY:

# 179 Q:

Yeah.

# 180 ROBERT BAKER:

Calls for a legal conclusion.

# 181 PHILIP KRAMER:

You just want the witness' understanding. Right?

# 182 JOHN KELLY:

Yeah.

# 183 Q:

What was your understanding of that lawsuit?

# 184 PHILIP KRAMER:

Don't say anything about what your lawyers have said to you. That's attorney-client communication.

# 185 CORA FISCHMAN:

To me I was just-I guess to me I was just mad at all these people trying to make money off my, you know, my friend. Like, here's this lady I helped, and stole a picture.

# 186 PHILIP KRAMER:

Do we know what time we are starting tomorrow? Are you-if someone is leaving-

# 187 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

10:30.

# 188 PHILIP KRAMER:

As long as everyone has that understanding, that's fine. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.

# 189 MICHAEL BREWER:

I was wasn't going to leave until I-

# 190 JOHN KELLY:

Knew the time?

# 191 Q:

I'm sorry. What is your understanding of the lawsuit?

# 192 A:

What's my understanding of the lawsuit?

# 193 Q:

Yeah.

# 194 A:

That I was told that nobody has a right to take any photos in my house.

# 195 (Michael Brewer leaves the deposition.)

# 196

BY MR. KELLY:

# 197 Q:

Okay. But Brooke isn't the one who took the photo from your house, is she?

# 198 A:

I'm sorry?

# 199 Q:

Brooke-

# 200 A:

Brooke was what?

# 201 Q:

She didn't take any photo from your house, did she?

# 202 A:

No.

# 203 Q:

You don't think the National Enquirer took any photo from your house, do you?

# 204 A:

No.

# 205 Q:

Okay. Do you think [Name Deleted]'s the one who took it?

# 206 A:

If I think? Yeah, she took the picture.

# 207 Q:

Okay. But the person or the entity that you're suing is the National Enquirer, is it not?

# 208 A:

Yes.

# 209 ROBERT BAKER:

Totally irrelevant.

# 210

BY MR. KELLY:

# 211 Q:

And that's because they published it?

# 212 A:

Yes.

# 213 Q:

And that was the same photo that was published in Star Magazine?

# 214 A:

Yes.

# 215 Q:

Okay. And you received $15,000 for that Star Magazine article?

# 216 A:

No. I actually got 13,000 out of that.

# 217 Q:

13,750-

# 218 A:

Yes.

# 219 Q:

-or just 13,000?

# 220 A:

13,000.

# 221 Q:

Okay. And that photo appeared in that article.

# 222 A:

Right.

# 223 Q:

Okay. And this photo wasn't a photo-you weren't in that photo at all, were you?

# 224 A:

No.

# 225 Q:

It was just Nicole and OJ?

# 226 A:

Yes.

# 227 Q:

Okay. And would it be fair to say the value of that photo was because Nicole was murdered?

# 228 A:

What?

# 229 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague as to-

# 230

BY MR. KELLY:

# 231 Q:

The value of that photograph was because one of the people in the picture had been murdered?

# 232 A:

Yes.

# 233 Q:

Okay. And the other person was accused of the crime.

# 234 A:

And the other person is accused of the crime?

# 235 Q:

Yeah, Mr. Simpson, in the photo.

# 236 A:

That was just-that's a picture of my friends, and nobody has the right to take that picture. So-

# 237 Q:

Okay.

# 238 A:

-yes, we said yes.

# 239 Q:

Okay. What was the purpose of your seeking to copyright that photograph?

# 240 A:

My purpose?

# 241 Q:

Yeah.

# 242 PHILIP KRAMER:

If you know.

# 243 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant. Calls for a legal conclusion.

# 244 PHILIP KRAMER:

And not something that your lawyers told you.

# 245 CORA FISCHMAN:

Because I don't know.

# 246 PHILIP KRAMER:

If you don't know and you can't say without what I told you, then that's what you answer.

# 247 CORA FISCHMAN:

Okay, fine. So I can't answer that.

# 248

BY MR. KELLY:

# 249 Q:

Did you intend to use that photograph at any time in the future again?

# 250 A:

No.

# 251 Q:

Did you intend to use it along with any book you intended to publish?

# 252 A:

I don't know.

# 253 Q:

Okay. Was that one of only two Pag 636 photographs you had of Nicole and OJ. at that time?

# 254 A:

That was the only family picture of my-of Nicole and OJ. with me, yeah.

# 255 Q:

Okay. And when you spoke to people about possibly publishing a book, did you indicate to them that you had photographs that you could use?

# 256 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 257 CORA FISCHMAN:

I'm sorry. What?

# 258

BY MR. KELLY:

# 259 Q:

When you spoke to people about publishing a book-

# 260 A:

Yes.

# 261 Q:

-did you indicate to them that you had photographs?

# 262 A:

That if I have pictures, yes.

# 263 Q:

Yeah. Okay. And one of those pictures was the one that was used by the National Enquirer?

# 264 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 265 CORA FISCHMAN:

I showed that picture, yes.

# 266

BY MR. KELLY:

# 267 Q:

Okay. Where is-How long did [Name Deleted] work for you.,

# 268 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 269 CORA FISCHMAN:

How long? Oh, God. I don't remember. Started when Nicole moved to Bundy, so January, February, you know, of 1994.

# 270

BY MR. KELLY:

# 271 Q:

Okay. So how did you come in contact with [Name Deleted]? You met her through Nicole?

# 272 A:

No. Met her through-I found [Name Deleted] for Nicole from other housekeepers. I don't know. Something like that.

# 273 Q:

Okay. And did she always have the same schedule with you, [Name Deleted]?

# 274 PHILIP KRAMER:

Are you talking about at the beginning?

# 275 JOHN KELLY:

Yeah.

# 276 Q:

Well, for as long as she worked for you.

# 277 A:

Well, at first she was working for me on weekends. She worked five days a week with Nicole, and then on weekends with me.

# 278 Q:

Okay.

# 279 A:

And then when Nicole died, she didn't have a job, so I told her to work for me any-you know, full time till she found a job.

# 280 Q:

But from January till June of 1994 she always just worked weekends with you?

# 281 A:

From January to June. Till the time of Nicole's death, yes.

# 282 Q:

Yeah. Okay. And would she stay at your house for those days?

# 283 A:

I'm Sorry. What?

# 284 Q:

Would she stay at your house? Was she a live-in-

# 285 A:

Yes.

# 286 Q:

-for the weekends?

# 287 A:

Yes.

# 288 Q:

Okay. And when would she return to Nicole then to work? Monday morning.'

# 289 A:

Tuesday morning.

# 290 Q:

Okay. So which nights would she stay with you? Would it be Saturday, Sunday, Monday?

# 291 A:

Sunday, Monday.

# 292 Q:

Sunday, Monday?

# 293 A:

Yes.

# 294 Q:

Okay. And that started right in January when she started working for you?

# 295 A:

January, February-yeah, I'm not sure, but it can't be January because at the time-yeah, yeah, I would say January.

# 296 Q:

Okay. And during this period of time from January to June, your kids spent a lot of time with Sydney and Justin also?

# 297 A:

Yes.

# 298 Q:

Okay. And would [Name Deleted] watch the kids on occasion?

# 299 A:

Yes.

# 300 Q:

Okay. And would you leave her with the kids on occasion?

# 301 A:

Leave my kids with [Name Deleted]?

# 302 Q:

Yeah.

# 303 A:

Yes.

# 304 Q:

Okay. Are you speaking to-you don't speak to [Name Deleted] at all anymore?

# 305 A:

I don't know where to reach her.

# 306 Q:

Okay. When was the last time you spoke to her?

# 307 A:

Last time I spoke to her was I think after the suicide attempt, you know, my suicide, when I got back from the hospital.

KEY QUOTE

# 308 Q:

What about Kris Jenner? When is the last time you spoke to her?

# 309 A:

Kris Jenner?

# 310 Q:

Yeah.

# 311 A:

Was around August of 1994.

# 312 Q:

Okay. What about Candice Garvey?

# 313 A:

I never talked-I talked to her once. That was at the store the day of the murders. She saw me, she gave me a hug, and that was it.

# 314 Q:

Okay. What about Faye? When was the last time you spoke to her?

# 315 A:

Last time I spoke to Faye was that -on Highwood when we were-I was driving, and she was driving her Range Rover, and that was it. That was my-the last time I saw her and I talked to her.

# 316 Q:

And when was the last time you talked to Judy Brown?

# 317 A:

Last time I talked to Judy Brown was I think around December of 1994 when we were trying to figure out what to do with the sleep over, when the kids were going to sleep over. Sydney wanted Leslie to go there, but that was it.

# 318 Q:

How often did your children see Nicole's children after June 12th, 1994?

# 319 A:

Not that often anymore because, first of all, they live so far away. That was the hard part.

# 320 Q:

But they would see them on occasion, wouldn't they?

# 321 A:

Yeah, whenever, yeah.

# 322 JOHN KELLY:

Okay. You know what? I want to break here for the day, if that's all right.

# 323 CORA FISCHMAN:

Are we done? Okay.

# 324 PHILIP KRAMER:

It's your deposition. That's fine.

# 325 CORA FISCHMAN:

Okay.

# 326 JOHN KELLY:

Yeah. MR. KRAMER: Fine.

# 327 CORA FISCHMAN:

5:30? 0kay. MR. KELLY: 5:25.

THEVIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Cora A. Fischman, Volume II. The number of videotapes used was three. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 5:19.

# 328 (ENDING TIME: 5:19 P.M.)

# 329 (ENDING TIME: 5:19 P.M.)

# 330 A:

I don't know.

# 331 Q:

Okay. Was that one of only two photographs you had of Nicok and OJ. at that time?

# 332 A:

That was the only family picture of my-of Nicole and OJ. with me, yeah.

# 333 Q:

Okay. And when you spoke to people about possibly publishing a book, did you indicate to them that you had photographs that you could use?

# 334 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 335 CORA FISCHMAN:

I'm sorry.What?

# 336

BY MR. KELLY:

# 337 Q:

When you spoke to people about publishing a book-

# 338 A:

Yes.

# 339 Q:

-did you indicate to them that you had photographs?

# 340 A:

That if I have pictures, yes.

# 341 Q:

Yeah. Okay. And one of those pictures was the one that was used by the National Enquirer?

# 342 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 343 CORA FISCHMAN:

I showed that picture, yes.

# 344

BY MR. KELLY:

# 345 Q:

Okay. Where is-How long did [Name Deleted] work for you.,

# 346 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 347 CORA FISCHMAN:

How long? Oh, God. I don't remember. Started when Nicole moved to Bundy, so January, February, you know, of 1994.

# 348

BY MR. KELLY:

# 349 Q:

Okay. So how did you come in contact with [Name Deleted]? You met her through Nicole?

# 350 A:

No. Met her through-I found [Name Deleted] for Nicole from other housekeepers. I don't know. Something like that.

# 351 Q:

Okay. And did she always have the same schedule with you, [Name Deleted]?

# 352 PHILIP KRAMER:

Are you talking about at the beginning?

# 353 JOHN KELLY:

Yeah.

# 354 Q:

Well, for as long as she worked for you.

# 355 A:

Well, at first she was working for me on weekends. She worked five days a week with Nicole, and then on weekends with me.

# 356 Q:

Okay.

# 357 A:

And then when Nicole died, she didn't have a job, so I told her to work for me any-you know, full time till she found a job.

# 358 Q:

But from January till June of 1994 she always just worked weekends with you?

# 359 A:

From January to June. Till the time of Nicole's death, yes.

# 360 Q:

Yeah. Okay.And would she stay at your house for those days?

# 361 A:

I'm sorry.What?

# 362 Q:

Would she stay at your house? Was she a live-in-

# 363 A:

Yes.

# 364 Q:

-for the weekends?

# 365 A:

Yes.

# 366 Q:

Okay. And when would she return to Nicole then to work? Monday morning.'

# 367 A:

Tuesday morning.

# 368 Q:

Okay. So which nights would she stay with you? Would it be Saturday, Sunday, Monday?

# 369 A:

Sunday, Monday.

# 370 Q:

Sunday, Monday?

# 371 A:

Yes.

# 372 Q:

Okay. And that started right in January when she started working for you?

# 373 A:

January, February-yeah, I'm not sure, but it can't be January because at the time-yeah, yeah, I would say January.

# 374 Q:

Okay. And during this period of time from January to June, your kids spent a lot of time with Sydney and Justin also?

# 375 A:

Yes.

# 376 Q:

Okay. And would [Name Deleted] watch the kids on occasion?

# 377 A:

Yes.

# 378 Q:

Okay. And would you leave her with the kids on occasion?

# 379 A:

Leave my kids with [Name Deleted]?

# 380 Q:

Yeah.

# 381 A:

Yes.

# 382 Q:

Okay. Are you speaking to-you don't speak to [Name Deleted] at all anymore?

# 383 A:

I don't know where to reach her.

# 384 Q:

Okay.When was the last time you spoke to her?

# 385 A:

Last time I spoke to her was I think after the suicide attempt, you know, my suicide, when I got back from the hospital.

KEY QUOTE

# 386 Q:

What about Kris Jenner? When is the last time you spoke to her?

# 387 A:

Kris Jenner?

# 388 Q:

Yeah.

# 389 A:

Was around August of 1994.

# 390 Q:

Okay. What about Candice Garvey?

# 391 A:

I never talked-I talked to her once. That was at the store the day of the murders. She saw me, she gave me a hug, and that was it.

# 392 Q:

Okay. What about Faye? When was the last time you spoke to her?

# 393 A:

Last time I spoke to Faye was that-on Highwood when we were-I was driving, and she was driving her Range Rover, and that was it. That was my-the last time I saw her and I talked to her.

# 394 Q:

And when was the last time you talked to Judy Brown?

# 395 A:

# 396 Q:

How often did your children see Nicole's children after June 12th, 1994?

# 397 A:

Not that often anymore because, first of all, they live so far away. That was the hard part.

# 398 Q:

But they would see them on occasion, wouldn't they?

# 399 A:

Yeah, whenever, yeah.

# 400 JOHN KELLY:

Okay. You know what? I want to break here for the day, if that's all right.

# 401 CORA FISCHMAN:

Are we done? Okay.

# 402 PHILIP KRAMER:

It's your deposition. That's fine.

# 403 CORA FISCHMAN:

Okay.

# 404 JOHN KELLY:

Yeah.

# 405 PHILIP KRAMER:

Fine.

# 406 CORA FISCHMAN:

5:30? 0kay.

# 407 JOHN KELLY:

5:25.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Cora A. Fischman,Volume II. The number of videotapes used was three. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 5:19.

# 408 (ENDING TIME: 5:19 P.M.)

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Cora Fischman

The only person that Nicole ever told you had said that they were going to kill her was Mr. Simpson, was it not? Yes. Right.

Kelly's most damaging exchange — Fischman confirms OJ was the only person Nicole identified as having threatened to kill her

Cora Fischman

He says, 'I want my kids.' ... Nicole told me that OJ. was mad at me.

Establishes OJ's possessive, angry demeanor during the school incident — relevant to pattern of controlling behavior

Cora Fischman

To me I was just mad at all these people trying to make money off my, you know, my friend. Like, here's this lady I helped, and stole a picture.

Fischman's stated motivation for the National Enquirer lawsuit — somewhat undermined by the revelation she received $13,000 for the same photo in Star Magazine

Cora Fischman

Last time I spoke to her was I think after the suicide attempt, you know, my suicide, when I got back from the hospital.

Casual, unremarked disclosure of her own suicide attempt — illustrates the psychological toll on people in Nicole's orbit

Evidence (1)

Informal

Photograph of Nicole and OJ Simpson, taken from Fischman's house by a named individual, published in Star Magazine and the National Enquirer

discussed — Fischman confirms she showed the photo to book publishers and received $13,000 from Star Magazine for the article in which it appeared

Notable Exchanges (3)

John Kelly•Cora Fischman

Kelly walks Fischman through the process of eliminating Judy and Faye as sources of kill threats, landing on OJ as the only person Nicole ever identified as having threatened her life — and Fischman confirms it without resistance

devastating

John Kelly•Cora Fischman

Kelly probes the Star Magazine payment ($13,750 vs. $13,000) and Fischman's plan to use the Nicole/OJ photo in a potential book, creating tension with her stated indignation about people profiting from Nicole's death

strategic

John Kelly•Cora Fischman

Kelly tries to establish whether OJ took Sydney and Justin back to Bundy before dropping them at school — Fischman cannot confirm or deny, saying 'I don't know' multiple times

inconclusive

Light Moments (2)

Philip Kramer

Philip Kramer interrupts mid-deposition to ask what time proceedings start tomorrow, prompting brief cross-talk among counsel before the examination resumes

Cora Fischman

Fischman, apparently confused about whether they are finished for the day, asks 'Are we done? Okay' and then checks the clock: '5:30? Okay.' Kelly corrects her: '5:25.'

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Cora Fischman

bias / financial interest

Kelly establishes that Fischman received $13,000 from Star Magazine for an article using the Nicole/OJ photo, and that she showed the photo to potential book publishers — undermining her stated outrage at people profiting from Nicole's death

⚔ Cora Fischman

prior inconsistent statement / implausibility

Kelly presses whether OJ said he would kill Nicole in the same breath that she claimed he only mentioned kill as a figure of speech — Fischman ultimately confirms OJ was the one exception who used it as a real threat

Witness Demeanor

Frequently asks questions back at examiner before answering ('Why?' 'What?' 'If I actually know?')

Often uncertain and hedging ('I don't know,' 'I think so,' 'I'm not sure')

Appears more forthcoming and direct when discussing OJ's anger and the kill-threat confirmation

Deflects or pleads ignorance on legally sensitive topics (copyright purpose, book plans)

Objections

12 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

Cora Fischman Deposition • Day 2 • 4 examinations • 4,509 utterances

Civil Case Deposition

1996