Cora Fischman Deposition — Day 3

📄 Cora Fischman Deposition — Day 3

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C:\DEPT103\DEPOSITIONS\CORA-FISCHMAN\DAY-3.DOC

◀ Cora Fischman Day 2 Christian Reichardt Day 1 ▶

Deposition of Cora Fischman

Day: 3 • Date: Thursday, March 21, 1996 • Examinations: 4 • Utterances: 2,459

Examination Rounds:

1 Direct examination of Ms. Fischman by John Kelly 1003 2 Direct examination of Ms. Fischman by Daniel Petrocelli 1102 3 Cross-examination of Ms. Fischman by Robert Baker 275 4 Redirect examination of Ms. Fischman by John Kelly 79

1 Direct examination of Ms. Fischman by John Kelly

Examiner: John Kelly • Type: direct • 1003 utterances

🛡️ Robert Baker 👤 Philip Kramer 📜 John Kelly 📜 Daniel Petrocelli

John Kelly continues his direct examination of Cora Fischman, Nicole Brown Simpson's closest friend, covering the two days after the murder, Nicole's state of mind in the final weeks of her life, her furious reaction to receiving an IRS-threat letter from Simpson, and detailed observations at Sydney's dance recital on the night of the murders. Fischman confirms that her and her husband's immediate reaction after the murders was that Simpson had done it, and that Nicole had been definitively ending the relationship in the weeks prior.

# 1 JOHN KELLY:

John Kelly for Plaintiff Brown.

# 2 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Daniel Petrocelli for Plaintiff Fredric Goldman.

# 3 ERIN KENNEY:

Natasha Roit for Plaintiff Brown.

# 4 ROBERT BAKER:

Phil Baker for O.J. Simpson.

# 5 PHILIP KRAMER:

Philip Kramer for the witness.

# 6

CORA A. FISCHMAN, having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:

# 7

EXAMINATION (Resumed)

# 8

BY MR. KELLY:

# 9 Q:

Good morning, Miss Fischman.

# 10 A:

Good morning.

# 11 Q:

Between yesterday when we finished and this morning, have you spoken to anybody about your testimony except for your attorney, Mr. Kramer?

# 12 A:

Yes.

# 13 Q:

And who was that?

# 14 A:

I talked to my kids.

# 15 Q:

Okay. Anybody other than your children?

# 16 A:

I talked to Ron and I talk about how my kids are doing.

# 17 Q:

Okay. All right. But nothing about your testimony specifically?

# 18 A:

No, not specifically.

# 19 Q:

Okay. Yesterday we had talked a little bit about an incident in late May where you had picked up Nicole's children one morning for school and Mr. Simpson had subsequently shown up, and the children went from your car into his. Is that correct?

# 20 A:

Right.

# 21 Q:

Okay. And what street was that on again?

# 22 A:

We were on San Vicente Boulevard.

# 23 Q:

Okay. And I believe you indicated that Mr. Simpson pulled in front of your car?

# 24 A:

No. Behind my car.

# 25 Q:

Okay. He pulled behind your car.

# 26 A:

Right.

# 27 Q:

And Sydney and Justin got out of your car and got into his?

# 28 A:

Right.

# 29 Q:

Okay. And did he pull out in front of you then after they got into his car?

# 30 A:

Yes.

# 31 Q:

Okay. And after he pulled out in front of you, did you proceed directly to the school then?

# 32 A:

Yes.

# 33 Q:

Okay. You didn't stop anywhere?

# 34 A:

No.

# 35 Q:

Okay. When was the last time that morning that you saw Mr. Simpson and the children then?

# 36 A:

When was the last time?

# 37 Q:

Yeah.

# 38 A:

That was the last time. I didn't see them after that.

# 39 Q:

Okay. When you pulled up to the school, you didn't see him there in the Bentley?

# 40 A:

No. I didn't notice.

# 41 Q:

Okay. In fact after he left that intersection there, you didn't see the car again, did you?

# 42 A:

No, I didn't see the car.

# 43 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 44

BY MR. KELLY:

# 45 Q:

Okay. And it's your testimony that after that incident, later that day or at any time you never discussed it with Nicole?

# 46 A:

Later?

# 47 Q:

Yeah.

# 48 A:

Yes.

# 49 Q:

Okay. You did discuss it with her.

# 50 A:

I did discuss it, yeah. I called her on the phone. I said what was going on.

# 51 Q:

And that was after the kids left the car?

# 52 A:

Yes.

# 53 Q:

Okay. And what did she tell you?

# 54 A:

She said that O.J. was mad.

# 55 Q:

Okay.

# 56 A:

And that O.J.'s mad at me. I said, "Why? What did I do?" She said well, he's just mad at me. So that's what.

# 57 Q:

After that phone conversation did you have any other conversations with Nicole?

# 58 A:

That was it.

# 59 Q:

That was it?

# 60 A:

Yeah.

# 61 Q:

Okay. And you have no knowledge of Mr. Simpson going back to Bundy with the children after they got into his car?

# 62 A:

No.

# 63 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 64

BY MR. KELLY:

# 65 Q:

On June 14th, 1994, okay, this is two days after the murder now, do you recall where you were that day?

# 66 A:

What's June 14th?

# 67 Q:

It's Tuesday.

# 68 A:

Tuesday?

# 69 Q:

Yeah.

# 70 A:

Tuesday. I was at home.

# 71 Q:

Okay. Do you recall going to Bundy at all?

# 72 A:

Tuesday. Yes, I did go to Bundy.

# 73 Q:

Okay. Do you recall approximately what time that was that you went over to Bundy, Nicole's condo?

# 74 A:

I went in the afternoon.

# 75 Q:

Okay. And do you recall what caused you to go over there?

# 76 A:

Lou asked me for the key to the Bundy house.

# 77 Q:

Okay. Lou had called you?

# 78 A:

Lou went to Rockingham.

# 79 Q:

To your place on Rockingham?

# 80 A:

Right, in the morning, and asked where Alvia was.

# 81 Q:

Okay. Was Alvia there at that time?

# 82 A:

Yes, yes, Alvia was there, right.

# 83 Q:

Okay. And did Alvia talk to Lou at that point?

# 84 A:

No, I don't think so, no.

# 85 Q:

Did she leave with Lou?

# 86 A:

She was Alvia was at home, at my house at Rockingham.

# 87 Q:

At your place.

# 88 A:

Yeah, at my at Rockingham.

# 89 Q:

What I am asking you is: When Lou came and spoke to her, did she then go with Lou back to Bundy?

# 90 A:

I think so, yes.

# 91 Q:

Okay. And did you speak to Lou at that time?

# 92 A:

Yes.

# 93 Q:

Did you give him the keys to Bundy?

# 94 A:

No, I didn't give my keys to he asked for Alvia's keys at that time.

# 95 Q:

Did Alvia have a set of keys to Bundy?

# 96 A:

Yes.

# 97 Q:

And did Alvia give Lou a set of keys?

# 98 A:

I don't know. I think so. I'm not sure.

# 99 Q:

Okay. Well, do you know how Lou ended up getting into the Bundy residence that morning?

# 100 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 101 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know.

# 102

BY MR. KELLY:

# 103 Q:

Okay. Did you let him in?

# 104 A:

No, I didn't let him in.

# 105 Q:

Okay. When did you have occasion to go over to Bundy yourself?

# 106 A:

An occasion?

# 107 Q:

That day. Sorry.

# 108 A:

That day?

# 109 Q:

That day.

# 110 A:

I went in the afternoon, because they asked me to help take the stuff out.

# 111 Q:

Who had asked you to take the stuff out?

# 112 A:

No. You know what? I think I drove Alvia to Bundy. That's why I went there.

# 113 Q:

That morning or that afternoon?

# 114 A:

Afternoon.

# 115 Q:

And when you got there, who else was at Bundy at that time?

# 116 A:

The Browns, Denise and Tanya.

# 117 Q:

Was Dominique there?

# 118 A:

Dominique? I'm not sure.

# 119 Q:

And was Lou Brown there?

# 120 A:

Who?

# 121 Q:

Lou Brown.

# 122 A:

Lou? I think he was there.

# 123 Q:

Okay. Anybody else, if you recall?

# 124 A:

A.C. was there.

# 125 Q:

Okay. Anybody else?

# 126 A:

That's it.

# 127 Q:

Was Ron Fischman there?

# 128 A:

No, Ron wasn't there.

# 129 Q:

Was A.C. already there when you got to 875 Bundy?

# 130 A:

Yes, he was there already.

# 131 Q:

And what, if anything, was A.C. doing when you got there?

# 132 A:

We were putting all of Nicole's belongings to the car. That was pretty much what we were doing.

# 133 Q:

But did you pack anything yourself?

# 134 A:

Yeah, I went upstairs and put everything in bags.

# 135 Q:

And did you have any conversations with A.C. that day?

# 136 A:

Yeah. We just said, you know he told me, "Just be strong. Be strong." That's pretty much what he told me.

# 137 Q:

Okay. Did he say anything about Mr. Simpson at all?

# 138 A:

No.

# 139 Q:

Did you have any discussions with him as to how the murders had occurred?

# 140 A:

No.

# 141 Q:

No discussion about who might have done it?

# 142 A:

No.

# 143 Q:

Did A.C. tell you he had spoken to Simpson?

# 144 A:

No.

# 145 Q:

That never even came up?

# 146 A:

No.

# 147 Q:

Did you remove anything from Bundy yourself?

# 148 PHILIP KRAMER:

Do you understand the question?

You're asking

# 149

BY MR. KELLY:

# 150 Q:

Yeah, and kept it. I'm sorry.

# 151 A:

No.

# 152 Q:

You didn't keep any of Nicole's belongings

# 153 A:

No.

# 154 Q:

from Bundy?

# 155 A:

No.

# 156 Q:

Was there any other time when you were over at Bundy that week later in the week?

# 157 A:

That was the last time.

# 158 Q:

Okay. Did you go there on the 17th?

# 159 A:

What's the 17th? You have to give me

# 160 Q:

That was the day after the funeral, the day of the Bronco chase.

# 161 A:

Yes, I went back, yes.

# 162 Q:

Okay. And did someone call you to come over?

# 163 A:

I was so confused that day. I think Lou.

# 164 Q:

I'm sorry. I'll come back to the 17th. On the 14th was there a time that Simpson called the Bundy residence when you were there?

# 165 PHILIP KRAMER:

This is the Tuesday when they were packing?

# 166

BY MR. KELLY:

# 167 Q:

Yeah, Tuesday on the 14th, when you were packing.

# 168 A:

I don't know, you know, because I was upstairs in the bedroom, so...

# 169 Q:

Okay. Was Ron Hardy there that day?

# 170 A:

Yes, he was there.

# 171 Q:

He was.

# 172 A:

Uh-huh.

# 173 Q:

Did you see him on the telephone at all?

# 174 A:

I was upstairs, so I wouldn't know, so...

# 175 Q:

Okay. And as far as you know, Ron Fischman wasn't there at all on the 14th?

# 176 A:

Ron wasn't there, no.

W: Okay. Was he there on the 17th at all?

# 177 A:

17th?

# 178 Q:

Yeah, the day after the funeral, was he at Bundy?

# 179 A:

Yeah, he followed me, yes, yeah.

# 180 Q:

Did you and he discuss him coming over to Bundy or if he would come over there?

# 181 A:

At the time, no, I don't think so. I just heard over the news that someone was at Bundy, and then when I Lou called, or I must have spoken to someone at the time. He said that there was another 911 or Lou called 911. So I panicked. I said, "Oh, my God, something happened again." And that was you know, like I got scared. I said, "Another one?" So my instinct was just to go there again and find out.

# 182 Q:

Okay. Did you have any discussions with your husband before you went over there?

# 183 A:

I don't remember. I mean, it was like the whole thing was to me was I was very confused and...

# 184 Q:

Did you have any discussions between the 14th and the 17th with your husband about who might be responsible for Nicole's murder?

# 185 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 186 CORA FISCHMAN:

At that time?

# 187

BY MR. KELLY:

# 188 Q:

Yeah.

# 189 A:

We talked, but it was hush-hush. We were like we didn't know. It was like we were afraid to talk because we were afraid who really did it, afraid that we might get hurt.

# 190 Q:

Well, who did he tell you he thought did it?

# 191 A:

At that time our first initial reaction was he did it, you know.

KEY QUOTE

# 192 Q:

Simpson did it?

# 193 A:

That's what we thought.

# 194 Q:

Okay. That was your husband's reaction, too?

# 195 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 196 CORA FISCHMAN:

At that time, yes.

# 197

BY MR. KELLY:

# 198 Q:

Okay. Did your husband have another theory also in the days following the murder as to who might have committed it?

# 199 A:

I don't know.

# 200 Q:

He didn't talk to you about anybody other than Simpson being the possible murderer?

# 201 A:

No.

# 202 Q:

Did he relate to you any conversations he had had with A.C.?

# 203 A:

I don't know about that.

# 204 Q:

Okay. Did you have any conversations after the 14th with A.C., either at the wake or funeral?

# 205 PHILIP KRAMER:

The 14th is the Tuesday?

# 206 JOHN KELLY:

Yeah.

# 207 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yeah.

# 208

BY MR. KELLY:

# 209 Q:

Okay. And did you speak to him at the wake?

# 210 A:

No.

# 211 Q:

Did you speak to him at the funeral?

# 212 A:

No.

# 213 Q:

When did you next speak to him?

# 214 A:

You mean to A.C. Right?

# 215 Q:

Yeah.

# 216 A:

That walk that I did with him on San Vicente.

# 217 Q:

Okay. And that was later in June after

# 218 A:

Yes.

# 219 Q:

Okay. And he had called you?

# 220 A:

Yes.

# 221 Q:

Okay. And what had he said to you when he called you?

# 222 A:

He said he asked how I was and how I'm doing, and he said, "Would you like to talk?" I said yes, you know, and that was it. So he said, "We'll meet at a coffee shop."

# 223 Q:

Okay. And how long did you talk to him for?

# 224 A:

I would say less than half an hour. 15, 20 minutes. We walked down San Vicente.

# 225 Q:

And did A.C. indicate to you that he had spoken to Simpson at all prior to your meeting?

# 226 A:

No.

# 227 Q:

Okay. Did he tell you anything that Simpson had said to him about the murders?

# 228 A:

He didn't say anything about that.

# 229 Q:

Okay. He didn't talk to you at all about who might have committed the murders other than Simpson?

# 230 A:

No, he didn't say anything.

# 231 Q:

Did he in any way indicate to you that he thought Simpson had committed the murders?

# 232 A:

At that time

# 233 ROBERT BAKER:

I think this has been asked and answered.

# 234 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't remember anymore, no.

# 235

BY MR. KELLY:

# 236 Q:

Nothing?

# 237 A:

I don't think so, no.

# 238 Q:

Did he talk about Nicole's relationship with Simpson at all?

# 239 A:

Yeah, we talked about that, yeah.

# 240 Q:

Okay. Do you recall what he said?

# 241 A:

He said they had a very passionate relationship, that Nicole was a very devoted wife.

# 242 Q:

And what did he say about Simpson?

# 243 A:

And that both of them just were just they loved each other.

# 244 Q:

Okay. Did he indicate that there was a problem also or

# 245 A:

Oh, yeah, he mentioned about O.J.'s womanizing.

# 246 Q:

Okay. Anything else?

# 247 A:

That was it.

# 248 Q:

Did he mention 1989 at all, the New Year's Day incident?

# 249 A:

No, he didn't mention that, no.

# 250 Q:

Okay. And after that conversation with A.C., have you spoken to him since at all about this?

# 251 A:

I'm sorry. Did I talk to who?

# 252 Q:

A.C. at all after this one conversation this day.

# 253 PHILIP KRAMER:

You're asking any conversation

# 254 JOHN KELLY:

Any time.

# 255 PHILIP KRAMER:

in the last two years?

# 256 JOHN KELLY:

Any time.

# 257 CORA FISCHMAN:

Well, he was at the house at Rockingham when I picked up the kids one time. I said hello, and he asked me how I was doing. That was it. And I asked him he said he's working. I said, "Oh, that's good." That's pretty much

# 258

BY MR. KELLY:

# 259 Q:

Okay. You didn't discuss the case at all?

# 260 A:

No.

# 261 Q:

Simpson?

# 262 A:

No.

# 263 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 264

BY MR. KELLY:

# 265 Q:

Now, I want to ask you about the incident at Tryst, the restaurant.

# 266 A:

Yes.

# 267 Q:

Okay. You were there that night.

# 268 A:

Yes.

# 269 Q:

Okay. And you were at a table with a number of other people?

# 270 A:

Yes.

# 271 Q:

And who else was there, if you recall?

# 272 A:

Cynthia was there.

# 273 Q:

Okay.

# 274 A:

[Name Deleted]. [Name Deleted]. One guy that Nicole was trying to set up with Cici, so I forgot the name.

# 275 Q:

Was Keith there also or...

# 276 A:

Keith was there, but he didn't sit with us. You know, he was just there.

# 277 Q:

Okay. And did there come a time that Simpson showed up there?

# 278 A:

Yeah. We were waiting for a table. Then he showed up, so...

# 279 Q:

And did you eventually get a table?

# 280 A:

We waited we waited quite a bit.

# 281 Q:

Okay. Did there come a time that night that you left before the others?

# 282 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 283 CORA FISCHMAN:

We left? What do you mean?

# 284

BY MR. KELLY:

# 285 Q:

That you left before the other people

# 286 A:

With Nicole?

# 287 Q:

you were with.

# 288 A:

No. We ate dinner there, so

# 289 Q:

And who had you gone there with?

# 290 A:

Who did I go?

# 291 Q:

No. Who had you gone to the restaurant with?

# 292 A:

I went with Nicole actually, no. I went myself. We went separate cars.

# 293 Q:

Okay.

# 294 A:

She was with [Name Deleted]at the time.

# 295 Q:

Okay. And you arrived there yourself in your own car?

# 296 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 297 Q:

And did you leave by yourself?

# 298 A:

Yes.

# 299 Q:

Did you leave before the check had come, or everybody left at the same time?

# 300 A:

We pretty much left at the same time.

# 301 Q:

You didn't leave before the others?

# 302 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 303

BY MR. KELLY:

# 304 Q:

Miss Fischman, did you leave before the others?

# 305 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 306 CORA FISCHMAN:

Nicole and [Name Deleted]were there while we pretty much left the same time.

# 307

BY MR. KELLY:

# 308 Q:

Okay. You didn't express any discomfort about being there and left before dinner was finished?

# 309 A:

Oh, no. We finished dinner and everything. We ate, and then, you know, finished we ate and then we left, and that was it.

# 310 Q:

Okay.

# 311 PHILIP KRAMER:

Just do the best you can.

BY MR. KELLY: Q: Do the best you can.

# 312 PHILIP KRAMER:

Do the best you can.

# 313 CORA FISCHMAN:

Exactly, but you're trying to say what

# 314 PHILIP KRAMER:

No, don't analyze it. Just listen

# 315

BY MR. KELLY:

# 316 Q:

Don't wonder what I'm asking. Okay?

# 317 A:

Okay.

# 318 PHILIP KRAMER:

Just think about it

# 319 CORA FISCHMAN:

I am.

# 320 PHILIP KRAMER:

and answer to the best of your ability.

# 321

BY MR. KELLY:

# 322 Q:

Okay. By the way, did you ever know Nicole to be dishonest?

# 323 A:

I'm being dishonest?

# 324 Q:

No. Did you ever know Nicole to be dishonest in any way?

# 325 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered four times in three days.

# 326 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 327

BY MR. KELLY:

# 328 Q:

Could you give me a specific instance or...

# 329 A:

Well, when she told me not to tell O.J. what she was doing.

# 330 Q:

Okay. Other than that?

# 331 A:

That's being dishonest.

# 332 Q:

Other than that?

# 333 A:

Pretty much that's it.

# 334 Q:

Anything she told you that you later found out to not be true?

# 335 A:

No. That's pretty much, you know...

# 336 Q:

Did she ever exaggerate things?

# 337 A:

Exaggerate things?

# 338 Q:

Yeah.

# 339 A:

No, I wouldn't consider that, no.

# 340 Q:

Okay. She wasn't overly dramatic, like Faye?

# 341 A:

No, not at all. She was a real person.

# 342 Q:

Okay. She didn't make things up, did she?

# 343 A:

No.

# 344 Q:

Okay. This statement that Nicole told you Simpson had made to her about "If I ever catch you with another man, I'll kill you," we had this discussion before with the other attorneys, too, and you indicated that was sometime in 1993?

# 345 A:

Yeah, right. Yes.

# 346 Q:

Okay. Do you remember what month that was?

# 347 A:

When they tried to reconcile, so '93, March, April, around that time.

# 348 Q:

Okay. So it was at the time they were reconciling, though. Is that correct?

# 349 A:

Right, that was-that week that they were trying to reconcile, when they went out to dinner.

# 350 Q:

And Nicole, I believe you indicated she had already had her affair with Marcus?

# 351 A:

Yes.

# 352 Q:

Okay. And to the best of your knowledge, after Mr. Simpson had made this statement to her, she didn't date anybody else for that next year or so, did she, Nicole, other than Simpson?

# 353 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 354 CORA FISCHMAN:

You mean Nicole? No, she didn't date.

# 355

BY MR. KELLY:

# 356 Q:

And to the best of your knowledge, even in April and May of 1994 now-this is still during the reconciliation Simpson did not know Nicole was seeing anybody else, did he?

# 357 A:

Simpson did not know? Yes.

# 358 Q:

Yes, he did not know?

# 359 A:

I don't know. I don't know.

# 360 Q:

Okay. You never discussed it with him.

# 361 A:

No.

# 362 Q:

Okay. You never discussed with Mr. Simpson this guy [Name Deleted]from Cabo, did you?

# 363 A:

No.

# 364 Q:

Or this guy [Name Deleted]?

# 365 A:

No.

# 366 Q:

No. Okay. Or Marcus Allen at all.

# 367 A:

No.

# 368 Q:

Okay. But you talked to him a lot, didn't you?

# 369 A:

Yes. Not yeah, right, I would say.

# 370 Q:

Okay. And he would talk about Nicole a lot with you also.

# 371 A:

Yes.

# 372 Q:

And as far as you knew, though, during the course of these conversations, he never indicated that he knew Nicole had started seeing anybody else again.

# 373 A:

That I don't know, no.

# 374 Q:

But to the best of your knowledge.

# 375 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 376 CORA FISCHMAN:

As far as I know, yeah, I don't know.

# 377

BY MR. KELLY:

# 378 Q:

Okay. And even into June of 1994, Mr. Simpson never indicated that he knew that Nicole was seeing anybody else.

# 379 PHILIP KRAMER:

Never said anything to Cora?

# 380 JOHN KELLY:

Yeah, indicated to her, told her.

# 381 PHILIP KRAMER:

Do you understand the question? Do you have it Could you either have it read back or reask it, because

# 382

BY MR. KELLY:

# 383 Q:

Okay. Even in June of 1994, up to that time had Simpson ever told you or spoken to you about Nicole seeing anybody else

# 384 A:

No.

# 385 Q:

since their reconciliation?

# 386 A:

No.

# 387 Q:

Okay. So as far as you know, even up to the day of the murders, June 12th, 1994, Simpson did not know of Nicole seeing any other person since her reconciliation.

# 388 A:

Yes.

# 389 Q:

Okay. Now, you had also indicated that you had a lot of long talks with Mr. Simpson in the two years prior to Nicole's death. Is that right?

# 390 A:

Yes.

# 391 Q:

Okay. And would it be fair to say there were different, I guess, phases of their relationship that past two years, meaning January to June of 1992 when they were going through the divorce?

# 392 A:

Yes.

# 393 Q:

Okay. Then there was a period after the divorce and before their reconciliation?

# 394 A:

Yes.

# 395 Q:

Then the reconciliation. Now, did you receive a large number of phone calls from Mr. Simpson during that January to June period of 1992?

# 396 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 397 CORA FISCHMAN:

January to June?

# 398

BY MR. KELLY:

# 399 Q:

Yeah, right-

# 400 A:

What do you mean by a large phone call?

# 401 Q:

Well, did you get steady phone calls from Mr. Simpson? .

# 402 A:

It wasn't steady. I mean, once every two weeks, something like that. It wasn't all the time, no. He didn't call every day. Is that what you

# 403 Q:

Would he call more than once a week?

# 404 A:

No. It was just once a week or something like that. It wasn't a lot. I wasn't really that close to him. I was more close to Nicole.

# 405 Q:

Okay. Do you recall what you would speak to him about when he would call?

# 406 A:

It was always we talked about pretty much the problem with Nicole.

# 407 Q:

Okay. Did he ever ask you where Nicole was at any given time?

# 408 A:

Where Nicole was?

# 409 Q:

Yeah.

# 410 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 411 CORA FISCHMAN:

No. Pretty much asked he asked how Nicole was, what is she doing. Yes, what is she doing, you know.

# 412

BY MR. KELLY:

# 413 Q:

Did he ever call you late at night?

# 414 A:

Late at night?

# 415 Q:

Yeah.

# 416 A:

No. Not late at night, no. Not late at night. I don't think that ever happened.

# 417 Q:

Okay. Would he call you at all during the reconciliation period?

# 418 ROBERT BAKER:

You're talking '93?

# 419 CORA FISCHMAN:

June of

# 420

BY MR. KELLY:

# 421 Q:

'93

# 422 A:

Yes.

# 423 Q:

into April-May '94.

# 424 A:

Yes.

# 425 Q:

Okay. What would be the purpose of those phone calls?

# 426 A:

About Nicole, about kids, you know.

# 427 Q:

Okay. You said he would call you when he had a problem with Nicole?

# 428 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 429 CORA FISCHMAN:

Problems with Nicole?

# 430

BY MR. KELLY:

# 431 Q:

Yeah.

# 432 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 433 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes, pretty much, yeah.

# 434

BY MR. KELLY:

# 435 Q:

Could you tell me what some of those problems were that he called you about?

# 436 A:

What Nicole is up to. That's pretty much, you know...

# 437 Q:

This was during the reconciliation period.

# 438 A:

Oh, during the reconciliation.

# 439 Q:

Yeah.

# 440 PHILIP KRAMER:

Could you give her again the time frame?

# 441

BY MR. KELLY:

# 442 Q:

Yeah. April of 1993 up through May of 1994.

# 443 A:

You know, there was a period where O.J. was not calling me, because they were going out a lot.

# 444 Q:

Right. That would have been during the reconciliation

# 445 A:

Yes.

# 446 Q:

period?

# 447 A:

Yes.

# 448 Q:

And moving up to May of 1994 now, this last month

# 449 A:

Yeah.

# 450 Q:

-do you recall him calling you at all during that period?

# 451 A:

The last time I spoke to him about the relationship was that walk that we did, and then we went to you know, when I asked him, "I want to talk to you," that was the last one.

# 452 Q:

That was when you went to his office then?

# 453 A:

Yes, we walked and then went to his office.

# 454 Q:

Okay. You don't know what that date was, do you?

# 455 A:

April, May.

# 456 Q:

Let me ask you: Do you remember Christian Reichardt's party?

# 457 A:

That's April 30.

# 458 Q:

30th. Okay. It was after that. Right?

# 459 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 460

BY MR. KELLY:

# 461 Q:

He was in Puerto Rico before that, wasn't he, Simpson?

# 462 A:

Was he in Puerto Rico the whole April, May? Could have been May.

# 463 Q:

Okay. What about, do your remember Mother's Day clearly? Was it after Mother's Day?

# 464 A:

Yes, what about Mother's Day?

# 465 Q:

When you took I am trying to

# 466 A:

Yeah, because she had pneumonia on her birthday, which is the 19th. You know, it's gotta be I talked to her I talked to him around April, then, when he got back from Puerto Rico.

# 467 Q:

And was this before Nicole's birthday and when she got sick?

# 468 A:

Oh, yes, yes, before. Before that.

# 469 Q:

Okay.

# 470 A:

Before the incident in the car where the kids were picked up, yeah, definitely.

# 471 Q:

And this was before she gave the bracelet back?

# 472 A:

Before she gave the bracelet? Yes.

# 473 Q:

Okay. So it was probably early May?

# 474 A:

I'm not sure. Early May or late April, you know, around that time frame.

# 475 Q:

Okay. But you can't mark it relative to Christian Reichardt's party? You don't know whether it was before that or after that?

# 476 A:

I can't, no.

# 477 Q:

Okay. Could you tell me, how long did you speak when you went for the walk?

# 478 A:

How long?

# 479 Q:

Yeah. Was it 10 minutes? 20 minutes?

# 480 A:

I would say half an hour, something like that.

# 481 Q:

And did he do most of the talking?

# 482 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 483 Q:

Okay. And what were his concerns at that time?

# 484 A:

That-well, you know, I told him that "You have one last chance to save your marriage," you know. "Why don't you move to Florida." And at that time I was trying to convince him, you know, to just do something. "Nicole loves you. She really ultimately wants to go back."

And so at the time he was saying, you know, "We gotta" he was just confused. He didn't know. He says, "What does she want?" You know, "I'm with Paula now."

I mean, that's pretty much the kind of conversation. You know, he's upset. He's angry, because he says, you know, "Nicole has to have a sense of commitment here. If she wants to commit, she commits." That's pretty much the conversation.

# 485 Q:

So when you took this walk with him, was it your understanding he had gone back to Paula again?

# 486 A:

No. I was trying to save the marriage. That's pretty much what I was trying to do.

# 487 Q:

Okay. Did he indicate he was thinking of going back to Paula or...

# 488 A:

At that time I don't know. I mean, I was trying to save the marriage.

# 489 Q:

Okay. He indicated he wanted to save the marriage, didn't he?

# 490 A:

Well, he would like to, of course, for Sydney and Justin's sake.

# 491 Q:

And did he indicate what Nicole's feeling was towards getting back together at that time?

# 492 A:

Well, he said he doesn't know what Nicole wanted.

# 493 Q:

Is that what he was asking you about or...

# 494 A:

Yes, pretty much.

# 495 Q:

And what were you telling him?

# 496 A:

Well, I said, you know, "Nicole's going through something, and just give her some time."

# 497 Q:

Okay. When you say Nicole was "going through something," had her sort of demeanor or attitude changed at all in these last couple months? I'm talking about April and May of 1994.

# 498 A:

Well, she told me she said she wanted to have fun.

# 499 Q:

And did she look like she was having fun to you those last couple months?

# 500 A:

Well, I mean, fun is going out and stuff like that.

# 501 Q:

Well, did she seem happy with her life?

# 502 A:

You know what? The outward she seemed, but I think inside, not really.

# 503 Q:

Well, did she tell you that?

# 504 A:

Well, she was confused. She didn't know what she wanted.

# 505 Q:

Did you discuss that with her, though?

# 506 A:

Yes, we did.

# 507 Q:

Okay. And she indicated she was confused?

# 508 A:

Yes.

# 509 Q:

Okay.

# 510 A:

Yes.

# 511 Q:

Did she also indicate she didn't want to move back with Simpson at that time?

# 512 A:

She didn't want at the time, but she said, "Ultimately we'll be together."

# 513 Q:

Do you recall when she said that?

# 514 A:

Well, I can't recall, but that's kinda like what we talked about at the time.

# 515 Q:

Where? In May of 1994?

# 516 A:

Yeah.

# 517 Q:

In May of '94 did Mr. Simpson indicate to you that he was ever going to break up with Nicole, leave her?

# 518 A:

He I never talked to him at that time anymore, so I don't know.

# 519 Q:

You never talked to him again after that walk and that day in the office?

# 520 A:

I think that was the last time.

# 521 PHILIP KRAMER:

You are talking about during that period of time?

# 522 JOHN KELLY:

Yeah.

# 523 CORA FISCHMAN:

I think that was the last time, yes.

# 524

BY MR. KELLY:

# 525 Q:

You saw Nicole a lot during that month of May 1994

# 526 A:

Yes.

# 527 Q:

didn't you?

# 528 A:

Yes.

# 529 Q:

Did she ever indicate to you that she was going to leave Simpson?

# 530 A:

She yeah, she said that she was thinking about it.

# 531 Q:

Okay. Did there ever come a time I mean, you saw her every day, didn't you?

# 532 A:

Yeah. She said that she was not ready to go back. She decided that she was just gonna do whatever she has to do first.

# 533 Q:

Okay. And did she tell you she had told Simpson she wasn't going to continue their relationship at that time?

# 534 A:

Yes. I think it was after the letter.

# 535 Q:

The IRS letter?

# 536 A:

The IRS letter, right.

# 537 Q:

Okay. Well, what she did she attach any significance to the returning of the bracelet, the bracelet she gave back to Simpson?

# 538 A:

Well, she told me

# 539 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 540 CORA FISCHMAN:

she felt guilty.

# 541

BY MR. KELLY:

# 542 Q:

Okay. But did she say it was part of ending it with him, in terms of giving back that bracelet?

# 543 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 544 CORA FISCHMAN:

Well, she said it wasn't hers. It's not unlike her. She said, "Where will I use this?"

# 545

BY MR. KELLY:

# 546 Q:

Okay. But she also indicated he was trying to buy her with it, didn't he didn't she?

# 547 ROBERT BAKER:

Very leading.

# 548 CORA FISCHMAN:

At the time she felt that way, too, yes.

# 549

BY MR. KELLY:

# 550 Q:

Yeah. And she didn't want to be bought by him.

# 551 A:

Well, this is what we were talking about, like, you know, Cici and I says, "Well, you mean to tell me he's trying to buy you?" you know.

# 552 Q:

And she said yes. Right?

# 553 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 554 CORA FISCHMAN:

At that time that's what she thought, yes.

# 555

BY MR. KELLY:

# 556 Q:

This was a specific conversation you had with Cici there also?

# 557 A:

With Cici. Yeah, I think Cici.

# 558 Q:

And this was at Starbucks?

# 559 A:

Could be Starbucks. Could be one of our runs. I mean, I don't know. I don't remember.

# 560 Q:

What I am trying to ask you, Miss Fischman: Was there a particular time that Nicole indicated to you that she had ended it with Mr. Simpson prior to the IRS letter?

# 561 A:

I don't know the specific time, but she was thinking about it because she was even thinking of moving to Redondo Beach and renting. So, you know, she was

# 562 Q:

She was looking at places, wasn't she?

# 563 A:

Yes, she was looking for a place.

# 564 Q:

She had a real estate broker?

# 565 A:

Yeah.

# 566 Q:

Okay. And this was before the IRS

# 567 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

She didn't answer the question.

# 568 JOHN KELLY:

I'm sorry?

# 569 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

She had a real estate broker and the answer was yes. She went like this (Indicating), Mr. Kelly.

# 570 JOHN KELLY:

Thank you, Mr. Petrocelli.

# 571 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

You must pay attention, Mr. Kelly.

# 572 JOHN KELLY:

I like you covering my back, Mr. Petrocelli.

# 573 ROBERT BAKER:

That was beautiful teamwork.

# 574 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Let the record reflect laughter.

# 575 PHILIP KRAMER:

The smile's not on everyone's faces, but actually I don't care, but not everyone's laughing.

# 576

BY MR. KELLY:

# 577 Q:

You didn't look at any places with Nicole, did you, during that time period?

# 578 A:

No.

# 579 Q:

Did she tell you why she was looking at other places, other than staying at Bundy?

# 580 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 581 CORA FISCHMAN:

Well, she said first she said she wanted to oh, she started looking after she got the IRS letter because she wanted to lease that place on Bundy and then rent a place like down at the beach in the summer with the kids.

# 582

BY MR. KELLY:

# 583 Q:

Okay. Well, she had gotten that letter that last week before her murder, hadn't she?

# 584 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 585 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't even know when that yeah, I don't know when that letter came. Must be

# 586

BY MR. KELLY:

# 587 Q:

It was June 6th, if that

# 588 A:

It was June 6?

# 589 Q:

Yeah. Monday.

# 590 ROBERT BAKER:

Just because Mr. Kelly says it doesn't make it true.

# 591 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

But what does make it true is the date on the letter.

# 592 ROBERT BAKER:

Well, the best evidence is the letter.

# 593 CORA FISCHMAN:

I never saw that letter, so I you know, she just told me about that.

# 594

BY MR. KELLY:

# 595 Q:

Okay. Were you there when it came?

# 596 A:

No, I wasn't there.

# 597 Q:

Were you there the day she received it?

# 598 A:

No, I wasn't there.

# 599 Q:

Did you see her the day after she received it?

# 600 A:

Yes, I saw her.

# 601 Q:

Could you describe her mood to me?

# 602 A:

Oh, no, she called me when she got that letter.

# 603 Q:

Okay. What did she say to you?

# 604 A:

She told me that "I got a letter from O.J."

# 605 Q:

Okay. And was she pleased with it?

# 606 A:

No. She said that "This is the guy" "This is the" something like to the effect that "He wants me to go to jail," something like that.

# 607 Q:

Okay. Now, you are speaking very calmly, Miss Fischman. Was that the way Nicole was when she called you?

# 608 A:

You know what? 'Cause I'm tired.

# 609 Q:

Okay.

# 610 A:

I'm just telling you. But do you want me to express?

# 611 Q:

I want you to tell me exactly what she said and how she said it.

# 612 ROBERT BAKER:

Oh, you didn't ask her for that.

# 613 CORA FISCHMAN:

I'm tired.

# 614

BY MR. KELLY:

# 615 Q:

I know you are, but you've done a lot of work here the last couple days, but if you can think about this for a second and tell me exactly what she said and how she said it when she called you, that would be great.

# 616 A:

That's exactly what I'm in a calmly way.

# 617 Q:

Okay. Could you tell me again now exactly what she said, Nicole, when she called.

# 618 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 619 CORA FISCHMAN:

I'm trying to remember. Pretty much that's the gist of it.

# 620

BY MR. KELLY:

# 621 A:

Yes.

# 622 Q:

Did she use any vulgarity when she spoke to you?

# 623 A:

I don't remember.

# 624 Q:

Was her voice raised at all?

# 625 A:

Yes.

# 626 Q:

Okay. Would it be fair to say she was yelling about it?

# 627 A:

Yeah, she didn't like the fact that she says, you know, "That's the last money I have," you know, because she had like 90,000 or something; she has to pay 90,000.

# 628 Q:

Okay. Was she angry about the letter?

# 629 A:

She yes. Yes.

# 630 Q:

Okay. And did she indicate she was very angry at Simpson for sending the letter?

# 631 A:

Yes.

# 632 Q:

And did she express concern about the kids also because of the letter?

# 633 A:

Well, she was afraid she was gonna go to jail.

# 634 Q:

Okay. And did she other than that, did she express any other concerns?

# 635 A:

That was...

# 636 Q:

When she said she was afraid of going to jail, is that what Nicole said to you?

# 637 A:

Yes.

# 638 Q:

Okay. And how long was this conversation with her?

# 639 A:

That was it. It was a short conversation. She just expressed her anger, and that's it.

# 640 Q:

She was definitely angry, though?

# 641 A:

I said, "Oh, okay."

# 642 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 643

BY MR. KELLY:

# 644 Q:

But my question is: She was definitely angry when she called you?

# 645 A:

Well, she was very upset, yes.

# 646 Q:

Okay. And you knew Nicole very well. Right?

# 647 A:

Pretty much, yes.

# 648 Q:

Was this probably one of the more upset times you had spoken to her?

# 649 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 650 CORA FISCHMAN:

I think she was surprised, yeah, she was, yeah.

# 651

BY MR. KELLY:

# 652 Q:

More angry than other times?

# 653 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 654 CORA FISCHMAN:

More angry than other times?

# 655

BY MR. KELLY:

# 656 Q:

Well, was it about the most angry you had seen her at Mr. Simpson?

# 657 ROBERT BAKER:

I thought it was a telephone call, yes.

# 658 CORA FISCHMAN:

That's pretty much, yeah, she was angry.

# 659

BY MR. KELLY:

# 660 Q:

Okay. And did she tell you when she had received the letter relative to the phone call she made to you?

# 661 A:

I'm sorry. Could you please repeat the question, please.

# 662 Q:

Okay. Nicole had gotten this letter from Simpson delivered to her. Correct?

# 663 A:

Right.

# 664 Q:

Did she tell you how it was delivered?

# 665 A:

No.

# 666 Q:

Okay. Did she tell you when the letter had come?

# 667 A:

No.

# 668 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 669

BY MR. KELLY:

# 670 Q:

Okay. Did she indicate to you she had just received the letter when she called you?

# 671 A:

No.

# 672 Q:

Okay. Did she tell you she had received it that day?

# 673 A:

She just said, "I just got a letter," so...

# 674 Q:

Okay. Did she read it to you, by the way?

# 675 A:

No.

# 676 Q:

Prior to that phone call, had she ever mentioned anything to you about Simpson making threats about the IRS to her?

# 677 A:

No.

# 678 Q:

Never discussed that with you?

# 679 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Excuse me.

# 680 ROBERT BAKER:

Don't look at Mr. Petrocelli if he wants to change your answers. You are just here to testify honestly.

Let the record reflect that plaintiffs' counsel are engaged in a summit meeting.

# 681 JOHN KELLY:

Now you're excited.

# 682 Q:

Prior to this phone call

# 683 A:

Which phone call?

# 684 Q:

Nicole's phone call to you.

# 685 A:

Yes.

# 686 Q:

Okay. -about the IRS leader letter, was there a time a few days earlier she had called you after she had spoken to Mr. Simpson also?

# 687 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading. Asked and answered.

# 688 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't remember.

# 689

BY MR. KELLY:

# 690 Q:

You don't remember her calling and saying that she had hung up on Simpson and they had had a fight?

# 691 ROBERT BAKER:

Very leading.

# 692 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't remember that. I don't remember that incident, no.

# 693

BY MR. KELLY:

# 694 Q:

Okay. During these last two weeks before Nicole's death

# 695 A:

Okay.

# 696 Q:

Okay? did you speak to Nicole every day?

# 697 A:

Did I speak to Nicole every day?

# 698 Q:

Yeah.

# 699 A:

Pretty much, yes.

# 700 Q:

Did you talk to her about Simpson every day?

# 701 A:

Yes.

# 702 Q:

Okay. Did she ever indicate to you that she had spoken to him at anytime the last two weeks?

# 703 A:

Yes. Yeah.

# 704 Q:

Okay. Do you recall what those conversations were?

# 705 A:

Well, pretty much she was saying that she says, you know, "My mom told me that" "Mom had told me that O.J.'s gonna give me a hard time, meaning financially.

# 706 Q:

Okay. About what?

# 707 A:

I guess financially. Money.

# 708 Q:

I know, but why would he be giving her a hard time? Over what?

# 709 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation. Vague.

# 710 CORA FISCHMAN:

Because they were ending the relationship.

# 711

BY MR. KELLY:

# 712 Q:

And it was your understanding that she was ending it with him. Is that correct?

# 713 A:

I thought it yeah, pretty much, yes.

# 714 Q:

Okay. And she wanted to leave him, and he didn't want her to leave him. Is that correct also?

# 715 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 716 CORA FISCHMAN:

I thought so.

# 717

BY MR. KELLY:

# 718 Q:

That was your impression.

# 719 A:

Right, because I talk I never talked to O.J., so I was only talking to Nicole, yes.

# 720 Q:

Okay. But based on your conversations with Nicole, it was your understanding that Nicole was leaving Simpson and that he did not want Nicole to leave him. Correct?

# 721 A:

Oh, you mean O.J. not wanting to leave Nicole?

# 722 Q:

O.J. didn't want Nicole to leave him.

# 723 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation. Vague.

# 724 CORA FISCHMAN:

They were pretty much burnt out with each other at that time.

# 725

BY MR. KELLY:

# 726 Q:

In what sense?

# 727 A:

At the time Nicole told me that O.J. was going out with Paula.

# 728 Q:

But other than just telling you that, didn't there ever come a time Nicole said, "It's through between us. I'm not seeing him anymore"?

# 729 A:

Yeah, yeah, because, you know, she said to me, "If Paula's still around, you know, it's still the same. There's another woman," and she will not take that.

# 730 Q:

And Nicole told you this?

# 731 A:

Yeah.

# 732 Q:

Okay. Did Nicole tell you she had told this to Simpson also?

# 733 A:

I don't know about that.

# 734 Q:

Okay. By the way, you said before that it was your understanding that Nicole finally ended it when she received the IRS letter.

# 735 A:

Yes.

# 736 Q:

Okay. Is that something she told you as part of the phone call?

# 737 A:

No. No. She was just she was just expressing her anger, her disappointment.

# 738 Q:

With that phone call.

# 739 A:

Yes.

# 740 Q:

Okay. And other than the fact she said, "He's trying to send me to jail," you don't remember anything else she said to you?

# 741 A:

Actually that's what she said: "That guy's trying to send me to jail," you know.

# 742 Q:

Okay. How long was Nicole sick with double pneumonia? Do you remember approximately how long that was?

# 743 A:

Oh, she was actually she couldn't run for a week, so we ran and then it got worse, her coughing got worse, and that was it. She was...

# 744 Q:

Okay. And I believe you indicated you had never seen Simpson over at the house during that week she was sick?

# 745 A:

No.

# 746 Q:

Okay. Did you talk to her everyday?

# 747 A:

Yes.

# 748 Q:

Okay. Did she ever indicate to you that Simpson had been over to the house that week while she was sick?

# 749 A:

Not really, no. I mean, she mentioned about the flowers and the chicken soup, you know. Chicken soup, yeah.

# 750 Q:

That was just one day, wasn't it?

# 751 A:

I don't remember. No, I don't remember.

# 752 Q:

Okay. Do you know who was up there taking care of Nicole, if anybody was?

# 753 A:

Alvia was there.

# 754 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether her mom was up there at all?

# 755 A:

No, I don't think so. I don't know.

# 756 Q:

Okay. Your kids would usually I mean, you said they spent an awful lot of time with the Simpson kids, didn't they?

# 757 A:

Yes.

# 758 Q:

Okay. And when you would take your daughter, your 12-year-old daughter, 11-year-old daughter, somewhere, to an amusement park or something, would she usually take Sydney with her also?

# 759 A:

Yes.

# 760 Q:

Okay. Or if Sydney was going somewhere, would she usually take your daughter with her, too?

# 761 A:

Yes.

# 762 Q:

Was that always the case?

# 763 A:

Yes.

# 764 Q:

Inseparable.

# 765 A:

Yes.

# 766 Q:

Okay.

# 767 A:

The four of them were inseparable.

# 768 Q:

Okay. As of June 12th, 1994, do you know whether your daughter had any plans of going anywhere with Sydney?

# 769 A:

What's June 12?

# 770 Q:

That was the day of the murders.

# 771 A:

No, we didn't have any plans, no.

# 772 Q:

Okay. There was no discussion of your kids and the Simpson kids

# 773 A:

No.

# 774 Q:

in the near future going anywhere?

# 775 A:

No.

# 776 Q:

Okay. All right. Do you keep a calendar book, by the way?

# 777 A:

No.

# 778 Q:

Ever keep a calendar book?

# 779 A:

I used to.

# 780 Q:

In '94 did you keep a calendar book?

# 781 A:

No.

# 782 Q:

Okay. With the recital, we're talking June 12th now, how long was that entire recital from start to finish?

# 783 A:

It was an hour. Oh, you mean from when we sat there till

# 784 Q:

Yeah, till the bitter end.

# 785 A:

Oh, my God, till...

# 786 Q:

It wasn't as long as the deposition, was it?

# 787 A:

It seemed that I think it was

# 788 Q:

It was a long one, wasn't it? Weren't there 30 some acts? Do you recall?

# 789 A:

Oh, yeah, and it so happened that the

# 790 ROBERT BAKER:

I think this is leading.

# 791 JOHN KELLY:

It's not. I'm refreshing her memory.

# 792 CORA FISCHMAN:

I think she was the last act.

# 793

BY MR. KELLY:

# 794 Q:

Could you approximate the length of time you were at the recital from the time you arrived there till the time you left?

# 795 A:

Two hours.

# 796 Q:

Do you recall how long after you arrived there that Mr. Simpson arrived there?

# 797 A:

He arrived in middle of the program, so I would say an hour.

# 798 Q:

And you indicated that he sat near Nicole?

# 799 A:

Yes. The same row with Nicole.

# 800 Q:

And how many seats were empty between them?

# 801 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 802 CORA FISCHMAN:

About three, three seats.

# 803

BY MR. KELLY:

# 804 Q:

And were you sitting in front of them or behind them?

# 805 A:

I was sitting in front of them. No. I was they were behind me, yeah, in front of them.

# 806 Q:

Okay. Did you turn around to talk to Nicole at all during the recital?

# 807 A:

About any specific?

# 808 Q:

Just in general.

# 809 A:

Yeah, we did, yes.

# 810 Q:

Okay. And were your kids back with the Simpson kids in between?

# 811 A:

Yes.

# 812 Q:

Okay. Did you ever during that hour period or more ever see O.J. Simpson talk to Nicole Simpson?

# 813 A:

No.

# 814 Q:

Did you ever see them looking at each other, even?

# 815 A:

I was behind them, so

# 816 Q:

You were in front of them.

# 817 A:

Yeah, I was in front of them, right.

# 818 Q:

Okay. There was an intermission during this recital, wasn't there?

# 819 A:

Yes.

# 820 Q:

Okay. Do you recall seeing either Mr. Simpson or Nicole standing up during the intermission?

# 821 A:

No.

# 822 Q:

They both stayed in their seats?

# 823 A:

See, O.J. left sometime during the program, and then when he got back, he was sitting at the corner and he was holding flowers.

# 824 Q:

So how long was he there before he left?

# 825 A:

How long?

# 826 Q:

Yeah.

# 827 A:

I don't know. I mean, I wasn't paying attention.

# 828 Q:

Okay. When you say he was seated in a "corner," he was by himself, wasn't he?

# 829 A:

Yes. Because the kids were all in back already, the whole at the time.

# 830 Q:

Okay. And he grabbed the second separate chair and was seated in the corner of the gym?

# 831 A:

Right, yes.

# 832 Q:

Okay. And how long was he seated there for?

# 833 A:

How long?

# 834 Q:

Yeah.

# 835 A:

I don't remember. I don't know.

# 836 Q:

Okay. Well, the last act

# 837 A:

5 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes.

# 838 Q:

Well, the last act was your daughter and Sydney, was it not?

# 839 A:

I would say 10 minutes.

# 840 Q:

Yeah. The last act had your daughter and Sydney in it?

# 841 A:

Yeah.

# 842 Q:

Okay. And at that point he was seated back in the corner on the separate chair?

# 843 A:

Yes.

# 844 Q:

Okay. And was that the only act that Sydney was in during the recital, was the last act?

# 845 A:

Yes.

# 846 Q:

So when Sydney performed, Mr. Simpson was sitting in the back of the auditorium in a separate chair, and Nicole was in her regular seat that she had been in for the whole recital. Is that correct also?

# 847 A:

At that time we were all standing up. We were all excited, so I didn't even notice that. Because we were all standing up because we were so excited about the program, so I don't know. It was the whole thing was like

# 848 Q:

Okay. Well, did-

# 849 A:

I don't remember. I don't remember.

# 850 Q:

Do you remember where Simpson was at that time?

# 851 A:

Well, the last time I saw him, he was at the corner, so that was the last time I saw him.

# 852 Q:

You didn't see him move up again, did you?

# 853 A:

No.

# 854 Q:

Okay. And the last time you saw Nicole, she was still in that row of seats where the kids were also?

# 855 A:

They were all together already because we were all standing up. We were all

# 856 Q:

Including Nicole.

# 857 A:

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

# 858 Q:

And Mr. Simpson was separate from all of you.

# 859 A:

He was not with us, yes.

# 860 Q:

And that's all I'm asking. He was separate, back in the corner.

# 861 A:

Exactly, right.

# 862 Q:

And you and Nicole and the Brown family and everybody was together.

# 863 A:

We were all yes.

# 864 Q:

Okay. And you didn't talk to Simpson at all that day at the recital.

# 865 A:

No. I said, "You look tired."

# 866 Q:

And where was he seated when you said that?

# 867 A:

I just look in the back and I says, you know, "You look tired."

# 868 Q:

Yeah. That was in the row of chairs there?

# 869 A:

Yes, yes, when he just walked in.

# 870 Q:

And you didn't talk to him after that at all?

# 871 A:

No more.

# 872 Q:

Did you see who he spoke to, if anybody, during the recital?

# 873 A:

No.

# 874 Q:

Your husband was at the recital, wasn't he?

# 875 A:

Yes.

# 876 Q:

Did you see him speaking to your husband at all?

# 877 A:

Well, I asked Ron to take pictures you know. He says, "Why don't we all take pictures," stuff like that, so that was yeah.

# 878 Q:

That was after the recital.

# 879 A:

That was during the recital. That was, you know, while we were waiting for the program, you know, when Sydney was there and [Name Deleted], I said, "Take pictures," so

# 880 Q:

But that wasn't him talking to Simpson at all, was it?

# 881 A:

No. No.

# 882 Q:

It had nothing to do with Simpson.

# 883 A:

No.

# 884 Q:

Okay. My question to you is: Did you ever see your husband talking to Simpson at all either during or after the recital?

# 885 A:

I didn't see him, no.

# 886 Q:

Okay. Did you see Simpson talking to anybody either during or after the recital?

# 887 A:

I saw a few people saying hello, yeah.

# 888 Q:

Okay. Other than that?

# 889 A:

No.

# 890 Q:

Nicole had a camera at the recital, didn't she?

# 891 A:

I'm sorry. What?

# 892 Q:

Did Nicole have a camera at the recital?

# 893 A:

I don't remember. Yes, I think so. Or a video. I'm not sure.

# 894 Q:

Okay. She had some sort of camera, though.

# 895 A:

Yeah, right.

# 896 Q:

And why did you ask your husband to take a picture of Simpson with Sydney?

# 897 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 898 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know. I mean, to me I thought it was cute, that they had that nice outfit, you know.

# 899

BY MR. KELLY:

# 900 Q:

Okay. Were you under the impression that Nicole wouldn't be taking a picture of Sydney with her father?

# 901 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 902 CORA FISCHMAN:

No, I was not even thinking about that. No.

# 903

BY MR. KELLY:

# 904 Q:

Let me ask you: You've said you've had long conversations with Simpson since his release from jail, didn't you?

# 905 ROBERT BAKER:

Misstates her testimony.

# 906 CORA FISCHMAN:

Long conversations? BY MR. KELLY:

# 907 Q:

Well, conversations with him.

# 908 A:

Yes.

# 909 Q:

Okay. And that's been over at Rockingham?

# 910 A:

Yes.

# 911 Q:

Okay. Could you tell me the first time you were over there and spoke to him after his release?

# 912 A:

The first time?

# 913 Q:

Yeah.

# 914 ROBERT BAKER:

I think this has been covered.

# 915 JOHN KELLY:

It hasn't.

# 916 CORA FISCHMAN:

I the first time was I asked where the kids were, so I Gigi called me oh, no. Actually I called, you know, the housekeeper. I asked if he's here. And so I said I would like to see him. That was it.

# 917

BY MR. KELLY:

# 918 Q:

And

# 919 A:

And so I went there, and that's pretty much you know, I asked how he was doing, "How are the kids? Did you see the kids?" and that's what we did.

# 920 Q:

Okay. Did you talk about the trial at all?

# 921 A:

No.

# 922 Q:

Did you talk about Nicole at all?

# 923 A:

We talked about Nicole. I you know, I kinda said you know, we commiserated, you know. We were both crying.

# 924 Q:

Did he indicate to you what his plans were now that he was out?

# 925 A:

At that time he said that he's "They're investigating. They're gonna look for the real killers."

# 926 Q:

Who did he say was investigating?

# 927 A:

He said he's hired investigators, so...

# 928 Q:

He said he had hired them?

# 929 A:

Well, he said there are private investigators there and they're looking, so...

# 930 Q:

Did he say these were people that he had hired?

# 931 A:

I don't know. I didn't go into specific.

# 932 Q:

Okay. But it was your impression that he was actively pursuing an investigation

# 933 A:

Yes.

# 934 Q:

for the real killers? Have you discussed this again with him since that time?

# 935 A:

No. No.

# 936 Q:

You've never discussed this investigation again?

# 937 A:

No.

# 938 Q:

Okay. Has he ever indicated to you the status of any investigation?

# 939 A:

No.

# 940 Q:

Has he ever indicated to you they have any leads as to who the real killers might be?

# 941 A:

No.

# 942 Q:

Has he ever indicated to you he has turned up some evidence that indicates he wasn't guilty of these murders?

# 943 A:

No.

# 944 Q:

Have you ever just asked him point-blank whether he was innocent of these murders?

# 945 A:

I never asked him.

# 946 Q:

After this one conversation you had about investigators and the real killers, when was the next time you spoke to him?

# 947 A:

I guess it was during the time where he was going to have the kids. It was I think around October. It was Sydney's birthday. I don't know. Around that time. And he wanted to know if [Name Deleted] would like to go with them. You know, he said that Sydney would like to have [Name Deleted] with her.

# 948 Q:

Okay. [Name Deleted] did go with her, didn't she?

# 949 A:

Yes.

# 950 Q:

And they went to

# 951 A:

Yes.

# 952 Q:

Neverland? Okay. How many days was that for?

# 953 A:

Just all day.

# 954 Q:

Okay. Did Simpson went with them. Right?

# 955 A:

Yes.

# 956 Q:

Okay. Did you go with them for that?

# 957 A:

No.

# 958 Q:

And did you have any discussions with Simpson at that time about the murder, real killers or investigation or anything?

# 959 A:

No.

# 960 Q:

Okay. And when was the next time after that?

# 961 A:

Next time was when the kids when he had the kids again, and so he called me where to bring [Name Deleted] at the time, because at the time the kids were not at Rockingham.

# 962 Q:

Okay. And did you bring them somewhere else?

# 963 A:

Yeah.

# 964 Q:

Was that [Name Deleted]'s house, do you remember?

# 965 A:

Yes, Don [Name Deleted]'s house, yes.

# 966 Q:

Okay. And did you visit with him for any period of time when you took the kids down there?

# 967 A:

No. I just dropped [Name Deleted], and then [Name Deleted] spent the night there with Sydney, and then I went to because at the time I wanted to see Sydney. That's the first time I've seen Sydney since, you know, this whole thing, because I said I wanted to see the kids, so that was it. And then the following day I went to pick up [Name Deleted].

# 968 Q:

Okay. No real conversations

# 969 A:

No.

# 970 Q:

at that time?

# 971 A:

No.

# 972 Q:

Okay. Has there been any time since then where you've been over at Rockingham and sat down and visited with Mr. Simpson for any length of time?

# 973 A:

That's pretty much what happened.

# 974 Q:

Okay. Well, you said you had had some meals over there, too.

# 975 A:

Meals is when the kids were there right, yes.

# 976 Q:

Okay. But sit-down ones with Simpson there, too?

# 977 A:

Well, one time was the Christmas we were exchanging gifts. That was Christmas Day. He invited us, the whole family, to his house.

# 978 Q:

Did you have any discussions with him then or

# 979 A:

About what?

# 980 Q:

About the murders.

# 981 A:

No.

# 982 Q:

About Nicole?

# 983 A:

Well, we always, you know sometimes things like, "This is what Nicole would love. This is" you know, that's pretty much what we

# 984 Q:

Any discussion of any investigation?

# 985 A:

No.

# 986 Q:

And the only attorney you have spoken to with Mr. Simpson is Mr. Leonard that time?

# 987 A:

Yes.

# 988 PHILIP KRAMER:

Is this in connection with the civil case? That's what you're asking about?

# 989 JOHN KELLY:

Yeah.

# 990 PHILIP KRAMER:

Okay.

# 991 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 992

BY MR. KELLY:

# 993 Q:

Okay. And no other attorneys?

# 994 A:

No.

# 995 Q:

Okay. You never saw Mr. Baker over at Mr. Simpson's house?

# 996 A:

No.

# 997 Q:

Okay.

# 998 (Discussion held off the record.)

# 999 JOHN KELLY:

Okay, I'm done.

# 1000 PHILIP KRAMER:

Can we take a break for a few moments, please?

# 1001 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 1002

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 11:41. (Recess.) (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 165 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)

# 1003

EXAMINATION

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Cora Fischman

At that time our first initial reaction was he did it, you know.

Fischman states that she and her husband Ron immediately believed Simpson was the killer — and that they were afraid to discuss it openly out of fear.

Cora Fischman

We were afraid to talk because we were afraid who really did it, afraid that we might get hurt.

Reveals the terror Nicole's inner circle felt immediately after the murders, believing the killer was a dangerous and powerful man.

Cora Fischman (quoting Nicole)

That guy's trying to send me to jail.

Nicole's enraged reaction to receiving the IRS letter from Simpson — described as among the angriest Fischman had ever heard her — establishes Simpson was using financial pressure to control and punish Nicole.

Cora Fischman (quoting A.C. Cowlings)

Just be strong. Be strong.

A.C.'s only remark to Fischman while they packed Nicole's belongings two days after the murders — notably he said nothing about who did it or that he had spoken to Simpson.

Cora Fischman

She said ultimately we'll be together. But she said, if Paula's still around, you know, it's still the same. There's another woman, and she will not take that.

Captures Nicole's ambivalence — still holding a door open for reconciliation while also drawing a firm line over Simpson's relationship with Paula Barbieri.

Evidence (3)

Informal

IRS letter sent by Simpson to Nicole, dated June 6, 1994, demanding repayment of approximately $90,000 and implying potential legal jeopardy

discussed at length; Fischman describes Nicole's furious phone call upon receiving it

Informal

Bracelet given by Simpson to Nicole during reconciliation, which Nicole returned to him

discussed as a symbolic gesture — Nicole felt he was trying to 'buy' her and returned it out of guilt and principle

Informal

Flowers and chicken soup sent by Simpson to Nicole while she had double pneumonia

briefly mentioned as Simpson's only notable gesture during Nicole's illness week

Notable Exchanges (3)

Daniel Petrocelli•John Kelly•Robert Baker

Petrocelli intervenes to tell Kelly that the witness had answered 'yes' via gesture (indicating) to whether Nicole had a real estate broker, which Kelly missed. Baker sarcastically called it 'beautiful teamwork.' Kelly thanked Petrocelli for 'covering his back.' Petrocelli put the laughter on the record.

light, but revealing of plaintiff team coordination

John Kelly•Cora Fischman

Kelly presses Fischman to convey the emotional tone of Nicole's call about the IRS letter. Fischman flatly says 'I'm tired' and asks if Kelly wants her to 'express' it. Kelly acknowledges her exhaustion but pushes anyway — the exchange underscores the physical and emotional toll of multi-day deposition.

empathetic but persistent

Robert Baker•John Kelly

Baker objects to virtually every question touching Nicole's state of mind or Simpson's knowledge of her dating life as speculation, leading, or vague — a systematic attempt to prevent Fischman's impressions from being memorialized as evidence of motive.

strategic, defensive

Light Moments (2)

John Kelly

Kelly asks how long the dance recital was and quips 'It wasn't as long as the deposition, was it?' Fischman laughs and confirms the recital was about two hours.

Daniel Petrocelli / John Kelly / Robert Baker / Philip Kramer

After Petrocelli corrects Kelly for missing a witness gesture, Petrocelli says 'You must pay attention, Mr. Kelly.' Kelly: 'I like you covering my back, Mr. Petrocelli.' Baker: 'That was beautiful teamwork.' Petrocelli: 'Let the record reflect laughter.' Kramer dryly notes not everyone is actually laughing.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Nicole Brown Simpson

character rehabilitation (inverse of attack)

Kelly systematically establishes Nicole's honesty and reliability through Fischman: she didn't exaggerate, wasn't dramatic 'like Faye,' didn't make things up. Baker's repeated 'asked and answered' objections suggest this ground had already been covered with prior counsel, indicating a coordinated plaintiff strategy.

⚔ Cora Fischman

prior inconsistent statement / memory pressure

Baker repeatedly objects that questions have been 'asked and answered four times in three days,' framing Fischman as being re-examined to lock in answers rather than elicit new testimony. Kelly implicitly uses her closeness to Nicole and daily contact as a credibility anchor.

Witness Demeanor

Witness frequently pauses to reorient to dates ('What's June 14th?' / 'What's the 17th?')

Witness self-corrects narratives mid-answer ('No. You know what? I think I drove Alvia to Bundy. That's why I went there.')

Witness says 'I'm tired' when asked to re-express Nicole's emotional state

Witness asks 'I'm being dishonest?' when Kelly asks if Nicole was ever dishonest — momentary defensiveness

(Indicating) — witness gestures 'yes' nonverbally, missed by Kelly, caught by Petrocelli

Objections

38 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

2 Direct examination of Ms. Fischman by Daniel Petrocelli

Examiner: Daniel Petrocelli • Type: direct • 1102 utterances

🛡️ Robert Baker 👤 Philip Kramer 📜 Daniel Petrocelli

Petrocelli examines Cora Fischman, one of Nicole Brown Simpson's closest friends, covering her knowledge of the Simpson marriage, Nicole's abuse history, the volatile IRS confrontation on June 3rd, and the events leading up to the murders. A central dramatic moment comes when Petrocelli reads aloud from Nicole's handwritten diary (Exhibit 88) documenting years of beatings — material Cora had never seen — visibly shocking her. The examination also probes Ron Fischman's evasion of a deposition subpoena and Cora's wholesale dismissal of Faye Resnick's credibility.

# 1

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2 Q:

Good morning.

# 3 A:

Good morning.

# 4 Q:

I have some extra questions for you. The next document I am going to show you is Exhibit 165, which is the transcript of your interview with Barbara Walters in 1994. Is everything reflected on this transcript attributed to you accurate

# 5 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 6

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 7 Q:

-and true?

# 8 A:

Pretty much, yes.

# 9 Q:

It's true to your recollection. Right?

# 10 A:

To my recollection, yes.

# 11 Q:

And if you were under oath at the time of the interview, you would have not changed your answers. Right?

# 12 A:

Not changed my answers?

# 13 Q:

Correct. Your answers would have been the same. You would have still told the truth. Correct?

# 14 A:

Yes.

# 15 Q:

Okay. Who is Ron Fischman's lawyer at the current time?

# 16 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 17 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know.

# 18

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 19 Q:

You have no information at all?

# 20 A:

No.

# 21 Q:

Now, you had dinner with Ron Fischman last night. Right?

# 22 A:

No, I didn't see him. I talked to him.

# 23 Q:

You talked to him on the telephone. Right?

# 24 A:

Yes.

# 25 Q:

And the topic of this deposition came up. Correct?

# 26 A:

He asked how I'm doing

# 27 Q:

And

# 28 A:

-and I was crying, and he said, "I'm sorry you have to go through that."

# 29 Q:

And you also talked about his deposition coming up. Right?

# 30 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 31 CORA FISCHMAN:

I didn't mention to him about that.

# 32

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 33 Q:

He brought it up. Right?

# 34 A:

No.

# 35 Q:

Didn't come up at all?

# 36 A:

No.

# 37 Q:

Okay. Did he tell you that he is avoiding service of a subpoena on him for this deposition?

# 38 A:

We didn't talk about that.

# 39 Q:

Are you aware of that?

# 40 A:

Of course. It was in the news.

# 41 Q:

Are you aware that he is still trying to avoid being served?

# 42 A:

I don't know about that.

# 43 Q:

Okay. Has your husband has Ron told you that he is afraid to testify?

# 44 A:

He's afraid?

# 45 Q:

Yes.

# 46 A:

No, he's not afraid.

# 47 Q:

Did he tell you that he did not want to testify?

# 48 ROBERT BAKER:

I think this is irrelevant.

# 49 CORA FISCHMAN:

He didn't say that. He just didn't want to get involved.

# 50

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 51 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation, argumentative

# 52 CORA FISCHMAN:

Even if Nicole's dead?

# 53 ROBERT BAKER:

irrelevant.

# 54 (Discussion held off the record.)

# 55 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Please go back on the record. I will start the question over.

# 56 Q:

Ron Fischman has told you that even though this case involves a determination of Mr. Simpson's responsibility for the death of Nicole, he does not want to get involved?

# 57 PHILIP KRAMER:

You are asking if those words or words to those effect?

# 58 CORA FISCHMAN:

Those were not his words. I just assumed that.

# 59

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 60 Q:

Has he ever talked to you about his willingness to come forward and testify in this case?

# 61 A:

No.

# 62 Q:

Has he told you about any concerns that he has about testifying in this case?

# 63 A:

No.

# 64 Q:

Okay. Did O.J. Simpson ever tell you before Nicole's death that the Los Angeles Police Department was biased against him?

# 65 A:

No.

# 66 Q:

And that they had treated him unfairly in the past?

# 67 A:

No.

# 68 Q:

And did Nicole ever tell you that?

# 69 A:

No.

# 70 Q:

Anyone ever tell you that?

# 71 A:

No.

# 72 Q:

Have you ever been out in public with Mr. Simpson?

# 73 A:

No.

# 74 Q:

Ever? Before Nicole's death. You've been to events with him. Correct?

# 75 A:

Oh, before Nicole's death?

# 76 Q:

Yes.

# 77 A:

Yeah, we yes.

# 78 Q:

Have you ever been out with him and the children, his children or your children?

# 79 A:

His children? Without Nicole?

# 80 Q:

No. With Nicole.

# 81 A:

With Nicole?

# 82 Q:

With or without Nicole.

# 83 A:

Probably, yes.

# 84 Q:

You ever see Mr. Simpson wear a disguise in public to conceal his identity?

# 85 A:

No.

# 86 Q:

And did he ever tell you that he disliked the public notoriety and fame that he had?

# 87 A:

We never talked about it.

# 88 Q:

Did it appear to you that he enjoyed his notoriety and his fame, based on your observations of him?

# 89 A:

Did he if he enjoyed it?

# 90 Q:

Yes.

# 91 A:

I don't know.

# 92 Q:

Did it appear to you that he liked being famous?

# 93 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 94 CORA FISCHMAN:

If he liked being famous?

# 95

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 96 Q:

Yes.

# 97 A:

I guess so. I don't know.

# 98 Q:

You don't have an opinion on that? You knew this man for three or four years.

# 99 A:

Yeah, I don't know. I guess he likes it. I don't know.

# 100 Q:

Are you reluctant to say things that you think might hurt him in this case?

# 101 A:

No.

# 102 ROBERT BAKER:

Harassing.

# 103

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 104 Q:

You're here just to tell the truth. Right?

# 105 A:

I've been telling the truth.

# 106 Q:

And if your testimony is truthful, you are not concerned with whether or not it will result in damaging evidence against him, are you?

# 107 A:

I'm not concerned about that.

# 108 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 109

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 110 Q:

You are just going to tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may. Correct?

# 111 A:

Exactly.

# 112 Q:

You are not here to protect Mr. Simpson, are you?

# 113 A:

No.

# 114 Q:

You are not here to protect him because you're concerned about his children losing their father, are you?

# 115 A:

No.

# 116 Q:

Have you ever discussed with Mr. Simpson the effect that this case might have on his ability to have custody of his children?

# 117 A:

No.

# 118 Q:

That topic ever come up at all?

# 119 A:

Talked about the custody?

# 120 Q:

Yes.

# 121 A:

Not really, no.

# 122 Q:

"Not really." What does that mean?

# 123 A:

Well, we mentioned about I asked him when the kids when he's gonna have the kids.

# 124 Q:

You mean when is he going to get the kids for good, you mean. Right?

# 125 A:

For good, right.

# 126 Q:

And what did he say?

# 127 A:

He said, "Wait till all this lawsuit"

# 128 Q:

This lawsuit?

# 129 A:

"is finished." Yeah. The whole

# 130 Q:

So you understand that his getting the kids must await the outcome of this lawsuit, according to what he told you. Correct?

# 131 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 132 CORA FISCHMAN:

No. I thought that they were just finishing the school year.

# 133

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 134 Q:

Well, that's not what you just said. You just told me that he said his getting the kids has to await the termination of this lawsuit.

# 135 A:

He said he's got to take care of a lot of things first.

# 136 Q:

So it's fair to say that you have an understanding that this lawsuit the outcome of this lawsuit could have an effect on his getting custody of the children. Correct?

# 137 A:

No.

# 138 Q:

You have your understanding in that regard?

# 139 A:

No.

# 140 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered. Harassing.

# 141 CORA FISCHMAN:

I thought that this after the school year ends, that he was gonna get the kids.

# 142

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 143 Q:

What does that have to do with this lawsuit?

# 144 A:

And that he said he's got to take care of a lot of things first.

# 145 Q:

You understand that this lawsuit is one of the things that has to be taken care of before his custody issue can be resolved. Correct.,

# 146 A:

I didn't know that.

# 147 Q:

He told you that. Correct?

# 148 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 149 CORA FISCHMAN:

He told me that he has to take care of things first.

# 150

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 151 Q:

It's very important to you that Mr. Simpson's children be with him, isn't it?

# 152 A:

It is important to me, yes.

# 153 Q:

Did O.J. Simpson talk to Sydney Simpson at the recital?

# 154 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 155 CORA FISCHMAN:

O.J. talk to

# 156

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 157 Q:

Did you see O.J. Simpson talk to Sydney Simpson at the recital?

# 158 A:

No.

# 159 Q:

Not at all?

# 160 A:

No.

# 161 Q:

Not even during the taking of the photograph?

# 162 A:

I didn't see them, so...

# 163 Q:

You did not see Ron Fischman take the photograph?

# 164 A:

No.

# 165 Q:

You did not see O.J. Simpson give Sydney the flowers?

# 166 A:

No.

# 167 Q:

So you saw no interaction at all between Sydney and O.J. Simpson?

# 168 A:

No.

# 169 Q:

Okay. Now, before the recital began, the annual performances, did you speak to Nicole at all?

# 170 A:

I don't think so.

# 171 Q:

And during the intermission did you speak to Nicole at all?

# 172 A:

During the intermission?

# 173 Q:

Yes.

# 174 A:

I don't think there was an intermission.

# 175 Q:

No intermission at all?

# 176 A:

No.

# 177 Q:

Okay. And after the performance did you speak to Nicole?

# 178 A:

No.

# 179 Q:

Okay. Mr. Simpson, to refresh your recollection, testified that there was an intermission.

# 180 ROBERT BAKER:

Mischaracterizes his testimony.

# 181

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 182 Q:

In any event, I believe the evidence will demonstrate that there was an intermission.

# 183 PHILIP KRAMER:

Does that refresh your recollection?

# 184

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 185 Q:

Does that refresh your recollection at all?

# 186 A:

I don't know. I don't think there was an intermission.

# 187 Q:

Now

# 188 A:

It was a one-hour thing, so...

# 189 Q:

Now, the truth is that you and Nicole were upset with each other at this time, and that's one of the reasons you did not talk to her. Correct?

# 190 A:

No, I was not upset.

# 191 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 192

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 193 Q:

But there was a reason why you and she did not speak to one another that evening. Correct?

# 194 A:

No. You know what? That evening was it was a lot of commotion because we were with the kids and she was with the family.

# 195 Q:

But there were opportunities for you and she to at least exchange casual conversation, but you didn't. Correct?

# 196 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading

# 197 CORA FISCHMAN:

No, I wouldn't

# 198 ROBERT BAKER:

and the witness's state

# 199 (Discussion held off the record.)

# 200 CORA FISCHMAN:

Correct.

# 201

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 202 Q:

Okay. What were you wearing that evening?

# 203 A:

What was I wearing?

# 204 (Nods head.)

# 205 A:

I don't remember. Jeans?

# 206 Q:

Did you have a dress on?

# 207 A:

I don't know. I don't remember what I was wearing.

# 208 Q:

Did you have a light outfit on?

# 209 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 210 CORA FISCHMAN:

Me?

# 211

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 212 Q:

Yes.

# 213 A:

No, I don't think so.

# 214 Q:

Was it apparent to you at that event that O.J. Simpson and Nicole Brown Simpson were avoiding each other?

# 215 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 216 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 217

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 218 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you about an incident at the California Sushi Bar involving herself and O.J. Simpson, Faye Resnick and Christian Reichardt?

# 219 A:

No.

# 220 Q:

Never mentioned it to you ever?

# 221 A:

No.

# 222 Q:

Did she ever tell you about her going back to the Harley-Davidson Cafe opening in New York with Mr. Simpson and Faye Resnick and Christian Reichardt?

# 223 A:

Yes.

# 224 Q:

Did she tell you that she had an argument with Mr. Simpson at that time?

# 225 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 226 CORA FISCHMAN:

I didn't know that.

# 227

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 228 Q:

What did she tell you about the event?

# 229 A:

Well, I was in New York with them.

# 230 Q:

You attended. Right?

# 231 A:

No, I didn't attend.

# 232 Q:

Why not?

# 233 A:

Well, because Christian came, and there were like four people who could get into the opening night, so I told them that "That's okay, you know, you guys" "you four go," and then I, you know...

# 234 Q:

Were you there with Ron Fischman?

# 235 A:

No. I was by myself.

# 236 Q:

Did you stay with O.J. Simpson and Nicole at

# 237 A:

No. I stayed at a hotel.

# 238 Q:

At a hotel.

# 239 A:

Yeah.

# 240 Q:

Okay. And did Nicole tell you during at any time during that trip to New York City about an argument that she had with O.J. Simpson?

# 241 A:

No.

# 242 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 243

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 244 Q:

Excuse me?

# 245 A:

No.

# 246 Q:

Nothing at all?

# 247 A:

No.

# 248 Q:

Okay. Did Nicole tell you about plans to open up a coffee shop?

# 249 A:

Yes.

# 250 Q:

She told you about this near the end of her life?

# 251 A:

Pretty much, yes. She was thinking with Faye Resnick.

# 252 Q:

Thinking about doing what?

# 253 A:

Opening a shop with Faye Resnick.

# 254 Q:

And did she invite you to participate in that business opportunity with them?

# 255 A:

Yes.

# 256 Q:

And what did you say?

# 257 A:

Well, you know, I said, We'll wait till I get my whole divorce settlement. At that time we were thinking of the three of us doing something at one point in that time.

# 258 Q:

At that point you were contemplating divorce from Ron Fischman?

# 259 A:

Yes.

# 260 Q:

And you had told that to Nicole?

# 261 A:

Yes.

# 262 Q:

Okay. And did Nicole indicate to you how much money you would have to come up with to invest?

# 263 A:

Well, she said something about 90,000. 90,000.

# 264 Q:

She asked you for 90,000?

# 265 A:

Oh, no, no, not that. Not me.

# 266 Q:

All three of you would have to come up with 90,000?

# 267 A:

No.

# 268 Q:

What did she say about 90,000?

# 269 A:

Well, she said something like 90 000. Numbers to me were...

# 270 Q:

That's what Nicole had in the bank, about 90,000. Right?

# 271 A:

Oh, okay. Then that's it, then. That's where I got that number.

# 272 Q:

Okay. Did she tell you how much money you might be expected to contribute?

# 273 A:

No.

# 274 Q:

Did these conversations come up for the first time in the last weeks of her life?

# 275 A:

No. We talked about that before.

# 276 Q:

When?

# 277 A:

Even when-before when she just got divorced. One time she said she was she wanted to open a hair salon, and one time she said she'd like to open where Starbucks used to be, she would like to open like a cafe with jazz music there. You know, she was she's been thinking about that.

# 278 Q:

Did the conversations grow more serious near the end?

# 279 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 280 CORA FISCHMAN:

No. It was just like I thought we were just talking about something to do.

# 281

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 282 Q:

Did she ever indicate to you that she wanted now that she was breaking up with Mr. Simpson for good, she wanted to open up this coffee shop with

# 283 A:

No.

# 284 Q:

Nothing like that?

# 285 A:

No.

# 286 Q:

Okay. Nicole ever tell you about her abortions?

# 287 A:

Yes.

# 288 Q:

Okay. Did she tell you that she did not want to bear any more children for Mr. Simpson?

# 289 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 290 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 291

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 292 Q:

Okay. And when did she tell you that?

# 293 A:

When we you know, during our run, the first when they were separated in 1992, she said she would love to have more kids, you know, but not with O.J.

# 294 Q:

And did she tell you about medical injuries that she sustained?

# 295 A:

No.

# 296 Q:

Did she tell you about trips that she took to the emergency rooms or hospitals?

# 297 A:

No.

# 298 Q:

Never?

# 299 A:

Never.

# 300 Q:

Did she tell you about an incident where she had to go get treatment for a head injury?

# 301 A:

No.

# 302 Q:

Did she tell you that O.J. Simpson was hard on her during her two pregnancies with Sydney and Justin?

# 303 A:

No.

# 304 Q:

Never mentioned a word of that to you?

# 305 A:

No.

# 306 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 307

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 308 Q:

Never told you that O.J. Simpson would call her fat and was abusive to her verbally when she was pregnant?

# 309 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 310 CORA FISCHMAN:

No.

# 311

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 312 Q:

Never mentioned to you about O.J. Simpson's dissatisfaction with her gaining weight during pregnancies?

# 313 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 314 CORA FISCHMAN:

Well, she mentioned about that, yeah.

# 315

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 316 Q:

What did she say about that?

# 317 A:

She mentioned about that she didn't like herself being fat.

# 318 Q:

Yeah, but I am not asking you about that. I am asking you about O.J. Simpson's dissatisfaction with her.

# 319 A:

No, never mentioned that.

# 320 Q:

Not once.

# 321 A:

No.

# 322 Q:

She mentioned her own dissatisfaction with herself, but not O.J. Simpson's. Is that what you're saying?

# 323 A:

Yes.

# 324 Q:

She complained to you that O.J. Simpson did not spend enough time with Justin and Sydney?

# 325 A:

Right.

# 326 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 327

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 328 Q:

She did?

# 329 A:

She did complain, yes.

# 330 Q:

Okay. And she complained about that throughout the time that you knew her?

# 331 A:

Yes.

# 332 Q:

Including the last months and weeks of her life?

# 333 A:

Yes.

# 334 Q:

What would she say

# 335 A:

What would she say?

# 336 Q:

about that, yes, when she discussed it with you?

# 337 A:

That he's always out of town and that the playing of golf. That's pretty much...

# 338 Q:

Was Nicole very protective towards the children?

# 339 A:

I wouldn't say protective, no. She was she was attentive but not protective not overly protective, no.

# 340 Q:

Was she a good mother?

# 341 A:

Yes.

# 342 Q:

Did she love her children?

# 343 A:

Yes.

# 344 Q:

Okay. Would she let anything she would never let anyone harm her children. Correct?

# 345 A:

Of course, yes.

# 346 Q:

And she would never let anyone threaten her children's security. Correct?

# 347 A:

Correct.

# 348 Q:

And her children were the most important persons in her life. Correct?

# 349 A:

Correct.

# 350 Q:

You said that O.J. Simpson and Nicole had a passionate relationship.

# 351 A:

Yes.

# 352 Q:

What do you mean by that?

# 353 A:

Well, that's what Nicole described their relationship. They used to have passionate you know, very sexual and very they were into each other.

# 354 Q:

Is it fair to say that when that the relationship was passionate from both a good and bad standpoint?

# 355 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 356 CORA FISCHMAN:

I thought when they meant passionate is the good side of it, and they had so much passion.

# 357

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 358 Q:

Well, based on your observations of the relationship, is it fair to say that when it was good, it was really good, and when it was bad, it was really bad?

# 359 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 360 CORA FISCHMAN:

I never saw the bad side, so because at the time I wasn't there when I only saw the good side, when they were trying to reconcile.

# 361

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 362 Q:

Well, she told you about being beat up. Right?

# 363 A:

No, she never told me that. She only told me the 1989.

# 364 Q:

What do you mean, "only"?

# 365 A:

That was the only incident that I thought that was the only incident.

# 366 Q:

You used the word "only." Does that indicate to you that that wasn't so bad because it only happened one time?

# 367 A:

No, I didn't say that.

# 368 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 369 CORA FISCHMAN:

I didn't say it was one time. I thought at the time it was like they had a big fight.

# 370

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 371 Q:

Yeah.

# 372 A:

That's how I because she never talked to me about it.

# 373 Q:

You knew about the womanizing. Right?

# 374 A:

I knew she told me, yes.

# 375 Q:

So you knew that there were really bad things that had happened in her relationship with O.J. Simpson. Correct?

# 376 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading and vague.

# 377 CORA FISCHMAN:

What do you mean?

# 378

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 379 Q:

She had gotten beat up; he had cheated on her consistently; he's threatening to put her in jail. You don't think these are attributes of a bad relationship?

# 380 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 381 CORA FISCHMAN:

I guess. I don't know. I guess so.

# 382

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 383 Q:

Fair to say they had a very stormy relationship?

# 384 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 385 CORA FISCHMAN:

Stormy?

# 386

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 387 Q:

Yes.

# 388 A:

Yes.

# 389 Q:

Okay. Nicole ever tell you that she feared knives?

# 390 A:

Knives?

# 391 Q:

Knives.

# 392 A:

No, she didn't talk about that.

# 393 Q:

Never told you about her fear of knives?

# 394 A:

No, never told me.

# 395 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 396

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 397 Q:

She ever tell you that O.J. had told her that he would kill her with a knife?

# 398 A:

No.

# 399 Q:

Have you ever talked to Let me ask you this: After

# 400 A:

You said four questions.

# 401 PHILIP KRAMER:

Yeah, is this is this are you halfway through your four questions at this point?

# 402 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No, I'm not. Let me continue. After did you ever see Mr. Simpson wield a knife?

# 403 A:

No.

# 404 Q:

You ever hear Mr. Simpson talk about knives at all?

# 405 A:

No.

# 406 Q:

Did he ever show you any knife collections that he had?

# 407 A:

No.

# 408 Q:

He gave you knives as a present, didn't he?

# 409 A:

Not knives.

# 410 Q:

Did he give you Swiss Army knives?

# 411 A:

Key chains.

# 412 Q:

With knives on them. Right?

# 413 A:

Yeah, you know, the whole set.

# 414 Q:

And where did he get them? Do you know?

# 415 A:

From the Swiss Army.

# 416 Q:

Swiss Army what? Company?

# 417 A:

Company.

# 418 Q:

And they made all kinds of knives?

# 419 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 420 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes. I guess, yes.

# 421

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 422 Q:

You ever see any other kinds of knives in his house other than eating knives?

# 423 A:

No.

# 424 Q:

Okay. Did he tell you about a knife he had purchased in May of 1994?

# 425 A:

No.

# 426 Q:

Okay. You knew he was filming FROGMAN in May of 1994 in Los Angeles?

# 427 A:

I thought it was in Puerto Rico.

# 428 Q:

Did you know that he was filming part of the sequences in Los Angeles?

# 429 A:

I didn't know that.

# 430 Q:

Did you ever discuss with him that project?

# 431 A:

No.

# 432 Q:

Do you know any of the scenes in that project?

# 433 A:

No.

# 434 Q:

Do you know that he wielded a knife in one of the scenes in that project?

# 435 A:

No, I didn't know that.

# 436 Q:

Okay. Did you ever learn that O.J. Simpson told Faye Resnick that he would kill Nicole?

# 437 A:

No.

# 438 Q:

If Faye were to testify to that, do you have any reason to think she was lying? If Faye were to testify that O.J. Simpson called her on May 2 or May 3 and said, "I'm going to kill Nicole," do you believe that Faye was lying?

# 439 A:

I wouldn't believe Faye at all.

# 440 Q:

You would not believe her?

# 441 A:

Not at all.

# 442 Q:

You think that's a lie?

# 443 A:

I think Faye's mouth, I think everything as a lie.

KEY QUOTE

# 444 Q:

And if Christian confirmed that, would he also be lying,

# 445 A:

Christian?

# 446 Q:

Yes.

# 447 A:

Probably, yes.

# 448 Q:

And why do you think that both of them would lie about such a thing?

# 449 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague. Argumentative. Leading.

# 450 CORA FISCHMAN:

Both would lie?

# 451

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 452 Q:

Yes.

# 453 A:

You mean meaning to kill somebody? You're gonna tell

# 454 Q:

Threaten to kill Nicole, yes.

# 455 ROBERT BAKER:

Mischaracterizes the testimony.

# 456 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know.

# 457

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 458 Q:

So you believe that if both Christian and Faye were to say such a thing under oath, they would both be liars. Is that what you're saying?

# 459 A:

Well, with Faye, I wouldn't believe Faye.

# 460 Q:

I am asking you now about Christian.

# 461 A:

Christian, I don't know. Probably, yes. I don't know.

# 462 Q:

Probably he would be lying also?

# 463 A:

No. Probably

# 464 Q:

He would be telling the truth?

# 465 A:

Yes.

# 466 Q:

Okay. You mentioned something about a [Name Deleted] at Toscana's. A waiter at Toscana's?

# 467 A:

Yes.

# 468 Q:

Now, this is a man that Nicole met in 1994?

# 469 A:

No. Way before that.

# 470 Q:

Way before that?

# 471 A:

Uh-huh.

# 472 Q:

Did Nicole

# 473 A:

We used to

# 474 Q:

I'm sorry. Go ahead.

# 475 A:

I'm sorry, yeah.

# 476 Q:

Did Nicole express any interest in this [Name Deleted] at anytime in 1994?

# 477 A:

Yes.

# 478 Q:

And how long to your knowledge had Nicole known [Name Deleted]?

# 479 A:

Since I've known Nicole. No. I mean since we started going to Toscana.

# 480 Q:

Was [Name Deleted] still a waiter at Toscana in 1994 before Nicole's death?

# 481 A:

Yes.

# 482 Q:

And what interest Withdrawn.

# 483 A:

Had Nicole ever had any sort of relationship sexual relationship with [Name Deleted] before 1994?

# 484 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 485 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know.

# 486

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 487 Q:

And what about during 1994?

# 488 A:

During 1994?

# 489 Q:

Before she died.

# 490 A:

Yeah.

# 491 Q:

Well, describe the sexual relationship Nicole had with [Name Deleted] in 1994 before she died.

# 492 A:

That wasn't 1994. She was still at Gretna Green, so...

# 493 Q:

When she was having a sexual relationship with [Name Deleted], she was living at Gretna Green?

# 494 A:

What's

# 495 Q:

I am

# 496 PHILIP KRAMER:

Are you having a problem with the term "sexual relationship"?

# 497 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yeah, I don't

# 498

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 499 Q:

Having any kind of sex, intercourse, oral sex.

# 500 PHILIP KRAMER:

You are talking physical sex?

# 501 CORA FISCHMAN:

Messing around? I don't know. She always says, "I mess around." So what does that mean?

# 502

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 503 Q:

So when she said "mess around" to you, what did you understand it to mean? Oral sex?

# 504 A:

I guess.

# 505 Q:

Okay. Well, let's include messing around as a type of sexual activity between two adults. Are you focusing on what I'm saying now? Okay? So using that in the definition of sexual relationship or sexual activity, did Nicole have any sexual activity with [Name Deleted] at Toscana?

# 506 A:

I guess so.

# 507 Q:

And when Did you see it?

# 508 A:

No. I wasn't there.

# 509 Q:

Nicole told you about it. Right?

# 510 A:

Nicole told me.

# 511 Q:

Okay. And when did Nicole tell you?

# 512 A:

After that. After the incident. I don't know. I mean, during one of our runs, so I can't

# 513 Q:

Was it during the time that Nicole was involved in her reconciliation effort with O.J. Simpson?

# 514 A:

Oh, boy. I don't know. I don't know. I'm sorry.

# 515 Q:

And in 1994 did Nicole have any sexual activity with [Name Deleted] at Toscana?

# 516 A:

I don't know.

# 517 Q:

Did she tell you about any?

# 518 A:

She was very attracted to him.

# 519 Q:

What did she tell you in 1994 before she died about her interest in [Name Deleted] at Toscana?

# 520 A:

Oh, by then they were just friends. They were just

# 521 Q:

All the time that Nicole was at Bundy they were just friends and nothing more. Is that what you're saying?

# 522 A:

I assumed, yes. I don't know. I mean, they still talked to each other. They did talk to each other intermittently, yes.

# 523 Q:

Did she tell you that she was interested in this [Name Deleted] during the time she was living at Bundy?

# 524 A:

I don't remember.

# 525 Q:

After Nicole's death and after you found out Ron Goldman also had been killed, did you ever talk to any of Ron Goldman's friends, such as [Name Deleted] or anyone else, about Ron's death?

# 526 A:

Yes.

# 527 Q:

And tell me what tell me who you spoke to and what was said.

# 528 A:

I spoke to [Name Deleted] and [Name Deleted].

# 529 Q:

At the same time?

# 530 A:

Yeah, pretty much whenever I saw them they were together, yes.

# 531 Q:

And this was soon after the deaths of Ron and Nicole?

# 532 A:

Yes.

# 533 Q:

Did you call them up?

# 534 A:

No. Actually the first time I saw them after that was that Tuesday when I went to Bundy, and they were there. They were putting flowers.

# 535 Q:

[Name Deleted] and [Name Deleted] were laying flowers?

# 536 A:

Right, laying flowers on the ground.

# 537 Q:

At Bundy?

# 538 A:

At Bundy. And they saw me.

# 539 Q:

And that's the first time you saw them?

# 540 A:

Right.

# 541 Q:

And tell me what you talked about.

# 542 A:

Well, we just hugged each other and we were crying. Pretty much that was

# 543 Q:

Well, tell me what was said, if anything, about the reasons well, the facts and circumstances of the deaths.

# 544 A:

Everybody was confused and shocked at that time that you know, that was pretty much

# 545 Q:

Did they did [Name Deleted] or [Name Deleted] say anything about O.J. Simpson's involvement in Ron's death and Nicole's death?

# 546 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 547 Q:

What did they say to you?

# 548 A:

You know, they said, "Do you think he did it?" Because that was what everybody asked, you know. Even the media asked me that was the first question.

# 549 Q:

Did they tell you what about any history between Ron and Ron Goldman, that is, and O.J. Simpson?

# 550 A:

No.

# 551 Q:

Did they tell you that, you know, O.J. Simpson had run into Ron?

# 552 A:

No.

# 553 Q:

Or had seen Ron?

# 554 A:

No.

# 555 Q:

Or had seen Ron in front of Starbucks one day?

# 556 A:

No.

# 557 Q:

Do you know whether O.J. Simpson had seen Ron in front of Starbucks?

# 558 A:

I don't know.

# 559 Q:

Do you know whether O.J. Simpson ever saw Ron Goldman before June 12th?

# 560 A:

I don't know. I don't know.

# 561 Q:

Did either [Name Deleted]or [Name Deleted] tell you about any confrontations that O.J. Simpson had with Ron Goldman?

# 562 A:

No.

# 563 Q:

Did they express any viewpoints about why or any opinions about why O.J. Simpson killed Ron Goldman?

# 564 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague as

# 565 CORA FISCHMAN:

No.

# 566

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 567 A:

We no. No. We they thought that he was just bringing the glasses, so that was pretty much what...

# 568 Q:

You've talked have you talked to anybody about Ron's Ron Goldman's activities that evening, why he was going to Bundy, where he might be going afterwards, anything like that?

# 569 A:

No.

# 570 Q:

No?

# 571 A:

What do you mean, "activities"? Like what?

# 572 Q:

His whereabouts, you know, why he was there that evening. Have you ever spoken to anybody about that?

# 573 A:

Yeah.

# 574 Q:

Who?

# 575 A:

Why Ron was there?

# 576 (Nods head.)

# 577 A:

I talked to-I don't know. To my friends and to you know, to my friend Cici at that time and to all those people I talked to. You know, we questioned how why was he there, what was he doing there, you know, yeah.

# 578 Q:

Did you learn anything?

# 579 A:

Pretty much all the answers were vague at the time.

# 580 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether Ron Goldman ever drove Nicole's car?

# 581 A:

If I knew?

# 582 Q:

Yeah.

# 583 A:

Yes.

# 584 Q:

Did he?

# 585 A:

Well, Nicole told me yes, one time. That's when they all went out.

# 586 Q:

And she told you that Ron drove the car?

# 587 A:

Ron yeah, Ron drove the car because they were both drunk at the time, Faye and Nicole were drunk, and Nicole and Ron didn't want them to drive the car, so he volunteered. He volunteered to drive them home because he was not drunk?

# 588 A:

Yes.

# 589 Q:

Okay. And nobody ever told you about Ron Goldman being involved in drugs. Correct?

# 590 A:

No.

# 591 Q:

Okay. Did Nicole tell you that Ron Goldman worked out at a place called The Gym in Brentwood?

# 592 A:

Yes.

# 593 Q:

What did she tell you about that?

# 594 A:

That he works out there. Nicole was not interested in working out, anyway, so it didn't matter.

# 595 Q:

Did Nicole work out at The Gym in Brentwood?

# 596 A:

No.

# 597 Q:

No?

# 598 (Shakes head.)

# 599 Q:

Did she work out at any health club?

# 600 A:

I worked out with her at Pro Gym once, you know. I had to drag her. But she never liked working out with weights, was not interested in that.

# 601 Q:

Did O.J. Simpson give Nicole very expensive diamond earrings for Christmas, the last Christmas that Nicole was alive?

# 602 A:

You know, I never saw those earrings. I don't know. I've never seen those.

# 603 Q:

They were discussed in the Star article

# 604 A:

Yeah.

# 605 Q:

that you were paid to give information for. Do you know about the earrings?

# 606 A:

She told me she has those earrings. They were beautiful, yeah.

# 607 Q:

Do you know whether Nicole returned a pair of earrings to O.J. Simpson when she gave him back the bracelet?

# 608 A:

If I know about it?

# 609 Q:

Yeah. Did she tell you about that?

# 610 A:

No.

# 611 Q:

Did she tell you that O.J. Simpson had asked back for the earrings when she returned the bracelet?

# 612 A:

I think what happened was she lost one or she lost the other, and she had one made or something.

# 613 Q:

Did she tell you that she made a claim for insurance and got money?

# 614 A:

I didn't know that.

# 615 Q:

Okay. So you don't know anything about her returning these earrings to O.J. Simpson

# 616 A:

I didn't know.

# 617 Q:

or giving them to him?

# 618 A:

I didn't know that.

# 619 Q:

Okay. She didn't tell you anything about that.

# 620 A:

No.

# 621 Q:

Have you ever been to McDonald's with O.J. Simpson?

# 622 A:

McDonald's? Probably. Oh, no, no, no, I don't think so.

# 623 Q:

The answer is no. Correct?

# 624 A:

No.

# 625 Q:

Have you ever been there with O.J. Simpson to eat?

# 626 A:

With O.J.?

# 627 Q:

Yeah.

# 628 A:

No.

# 629 Q:

Okay. Did you see O.J. Simpson and Paula Barbieri together at any time in May or June of 1994 before Nicole's death?

# 630 A:

Yes.

# 631 Q:

When?

# 632 A:

I was driving down Wilshire and I saw O.J.'s car with a woman, and I called Nicole. I said, you know, "I think O.J.'s with Paula." So that was it. That's my

# 633 Q:

And to the best of your recollection, when did that occur?

# 634 A:

Oh, God, around around May, around that time.

# 635 Q:

Before or after Nicole's illness?

# 636 A:

Nicole was sick at the time, so that was

# 637 Q:

During the time she was ill?

# 638 A:

Yeah, right, yeah.

# 639 Q:

And what was Nicole's reaction when you told her that?

# 640 A:

She didn't say anything. She didn't express anything. She was just, "Oh," you know.

# 641 Q:

Did you know that Paula Barbieri ended her relationship with O.J. Simpson on the morning of June 12?

# 642 A:

I didn't know that.

# 643 Q:

Did you know that O.J. Simpson and Paula Barbieri had a fight about whether Paula should attend the dance recital?

# 644 A:

I didn't know that.

# 645 Q:

Did Nicole and you ever discuss her feelings towards Paula?

# 646 A:

Her feelings?

# 647 Q:

Yes, Nicole's feelings.

# 648 A:

Well, she was kinda jealous of Paula.

# 649 Q:

And she related an incident at Marcus Allen's wedding where she left the wedding because Paula called?

# 650 A:

She didn't attend the wedding, yes, because Paula called, yeah, right.

# 651 Q:

So just because Paula called the Rockingham house

# 652 A:

Yeah.

# 653 Q:

Nicole refused to attend the wedding

# 654 A:

Exactly.

# 655 Q:

And what because she was so upset about Paula.

# 656 A:

Yes.

# 657 Q:

And in December of 1993 Nicole got very upset when a Christmas basket from Paula arrived at the Rockingham house as well. Correct?

# 658 A:

Yes.

# 659 Q:

And Nicole was angry with O.J. Simpson about that. Correct?

# 660 A:

Yes. Right.

# 661 Q:

Do you know whether Nicole ever spoke to Paula Barbieri?

# 662 A:

That was the time when Nicole answered the phone, you know, June Marcus Allen's wedding. That was the only time I know.

# 663 Q:

And Nicole told you about this?

# 664 A:

Yes.

# 665 Q:

Were you there?

# 666 A:

No.

# 667 Q:

She called you up and told you about it?

# 668 A:

Yes. She said that

# 669 Q:

What did she tell you?

# 670 A:

She said that Paula called, and she answered the phone.

# 671 Q:

This was at Rockingham?

# 672 A:

Yeah, right, she was at Rockingham.

# 673 Q:

And what did Nicole tell you transpired in the telephone call with Paula when she picked up the phone?

# 674 A:

Nothing. She just said that

# 675 Q:

Nothing?

# 676 A:

Well, she just you know, she said, "Paula called, and I answered the phone," and that was it.

# 677 Q:

You mean to tell me Nicole calls you up and says, "Paula called while I was at Rockingham. I answered the phone. Nothing else happened, and now I'm not going to the wedding"?

# 678 A:

Yeah, she was upset. She says, "I don't believe that that woman's still" "they're still talking to each other."

# 679 Q:

And she was still upset when she talked to you on the phone about this. Right?

# 680 A:

Yeah.

# 681 Q:

What did you say, by the way, when she said that to you?

# 682 A:

I said, "Well" I don't know. I forgot how I reacted, you know.

# 683 Q:

Well, I would like you to remember now. Can you remember?

# 684 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 685 CORA FISCHMAN:

She was upset. She didn't want to attend the wedding.

# 686

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 687 Q:

She told you this over the telephone?

# 688 A:

Yeah.

# 689 Q:

Did you try to talk her into going to the wedding?

# 690 A:

No.

# 691 Q:

Did you go?

# 692 A:

No.

# 693 Q:

Now Mr. Kelly asked you earlier today about your conversations with Nicole concerning the IRS letter, and you said that prior to Withdrawn. You said that the only time or the first time that you heard about the dispute that she and O.J. Simpson were having about the IRS situation occurred when the letter arrived, but not before. Do you recall that testimony?

# 694 ROBERT BAKER:

Mischaracterizes her testimony.

# 695 CORA FISCHMAN:

When the letter arrived?

# 696

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 697 Q:

Yeah. When Nicole got the letter, she called you and told you about it?

# 698 A:

Exactly, yes.

# 699 Q:

But in fact you knew about it earlier than that.

# 700 A:

Earlier than that?

# 701 Q:

Didn't you, because I questioned you about this, and I told you that Nicole I asked you about Nicole having a very angry exchange with O.J. Simpson at the house on Bundy on June 3 and that Nicole told you about it after it occurred? Do you recall that testimony that you gave?

# 702 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 703 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 704

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 705 Q:

Let me show you Exhibit 86.

# 706 ROBERT BAKER:

Lacks foundation.

# 707 CORA FISCHMAN:

Uh-huh, yeah.

# 708

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 709 Q:

You see Nicole's notes there, and you see the entry on June 3?

# 710 A:

Uh-huh.

# 711 Q:

Where O.J. Simpson where Nicole writes that O.J. Simpson said, "You hung up on me last night, bitch." Do you see that?

# 712 A:

Yeah.

# 713 Q:

Now, it's true that Nicole Simpson told you about this very ugly exchange with O.J. Simpson that she had with him on the evening of June 3, as you previously

# 714 A:

I didn't know it was the evening. See it was this in the evening? Or 8:30?

# 715 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading and vague.

# 716 CORA FISCHMAN:

Well, she called me. She called me I'm trying to... Because I remember she called me, and she was upset.

# 717

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 718 Q:

Tell me what she said to you.

# 719 A:

She said, "I can't believe this man is trying to put me into jail. I'm the mother of, you know, the kids" "I'm the mother of his kids, and he wants me to go to jail."

# 720 Q:

Did she tell you about

# 721 A:

The conversation?

# 722 Q:

Yes.

# 723 A:

No, no.

# 724 Q:

So your prior testimony that you gave me is false?

# 725 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 726 CORA FISCHMAN:

What prior testimony?

# 727

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 728 Q:

You testified just a day or two ago that she told you about this conversation with O.J. Simpson.

# 729 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative and leading.

# 730 CORA FISCHMAN:

No. I just the conversation I thought you mean the conversation, but not all of this, no. She didn't tell me all of this. She told me that she had a fight with O.J.

# 731

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 732 Q:

She had a fight with O.J.

# 733 A:

She had an argument with O.J. about this IRS, that she was upset about it, that's all, but she didn't tell me all of this in detail.

# 734 Q:

She didn't repeat the profanity to you that O.J. Simpson used. Is that what you're saying?

# 735 A:

Exactly. Yes

# 736 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 737 CORA FISCHMAN:

yes.

# 738

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 739 Q:

And she-when she told you Excuse me. Do you remember when she told you about this fight with O.J. Simpson about the IRS situation?

# 740 A:

Did I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question again?

# 741 Q:

Tell me when she told you about this fight with O.J. Simpson concerning the IRS situation.

# 742 ROBERT BAKER:

Mischaracterizes her testimony. She didn't refer

# 743 CORA FISCHMAN:

She must have told me

# 744 ROBERT BAKER:

to it as an argument.

# 745 CORA FISCHMAN:

that same day.

# 746

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 747 Q:

Okay. Because she was still upset about it. Correct?

# 748 A:

Yes.

# 749 Q:

Okay.

# 750 A:

Because it was during the day, so I don't know what time.

# 751 Q:

Now, did she tell you that she hung up on O.J. Simpson

# 752 A:

She hung up?

# 753 Q:

on June 2 or June 3 or thereabouts?

# 754 A:

No, I didn't know that. I didn't know that.

# 755 Q:

Did she ever tell you what O.J. Simpson's reaction was when she hung up on him on telephone conversations?

# 756 A:

No, I didn't know that.

# 757 Q:

Okay. Nicole writes in this diary entry here or whatever this document was intended to be that O.J. told her as follows on June 3:

"You hung [sic] up on me last night. You're gonna pay for this, bitch, you're holding money from the IRS, you're going to jail you f-----g c--t. You think that you can do any freaking thing you want, you've got it coming I've already talked to my lawyers about this, bitch and they'll get you for tax evasion bitch I'll see to it. You're not gonna have a f-----g dime left bitch."

Okay? Now, do you know of any reason why Nicole would ever make up such a thing'

# 758 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 759 CORA FISCHMAN:

No, she

# 760

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 761 Q:

So if she wrote this down and said in her own handwriting that O.J. Simpson said these things to her, do you believe that they are true?

# 762 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 763 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 764

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 765 Q:

Excuse me?

# 766 A:

Yes.

# 767 Q:

Does that shock you, that O.J. Simpson would say those things to her?

# 768 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative and irrelevant.

# 769 CORA FISCHMAN:

I'm shocked now because of what I

# 770

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 771 Q:

You've never seen this before?

# 772 A:

No.

# 773 Q:

You mean Mr. Simpson didn't show this to you during your talks at Rockingham?

# 774 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 775

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 776 Q:

He didn't show this to you?

# 777 A:

No.

# 778 Q:

He didn't say, "Look, Cora, look what I said to Nicole"?

# 779 A:

No.

# 780 Q:

I see. And Mr. Leonard didn't show you this?

# 781 A:

No. He didn't show me anything.

# 782 Q:

Do you know who [Name Deleted] is?

# 783 A:

Yes.

# 784 Q:

Who is [Name Deleted]?

# 785 A:

[Name Deleted] is one of the kids from [Name Deleted].

# 786 Q:

And is that a friend of Sydney?

# 787 A:

Yes.

# 788 Q:

So when Nicole wrote here about [Name Deleted] that she was Sydney's girlfriend in the same paragraph about the rest of this material, and that was true also, that [Name Deleted] is a person who is a friend of Sydney. Correct?

# 789 A:

Yes.

# 790 Q:

Where does [Name Deleted] live?

# 791 A:

Somewheres I don't know.

# 792 Q:

What is [Name Deleted]'s last name?

# 793 A:

I don't know. I don't know her name. So I know [Name Deleted], so...

# 794 Q:

What is [Name Deleted]'s mother's name?

# 795 A:

I don't know. I don't know. I only know [Name Deleted]. I've seen her once or twice, so...

# 796 Q:

Have you do you know who [Name Deleted] is?

# 797 A:

[Name Deleted]?

# 798 Q:

Yes.

# 799 A:

Yes.

# 800 Q:

[Name Deleted] is also a friend of Sydney?

# 801 A:

Sydney, yes.

# 802 Q:

And what is the name of [Name Deleted]'s mother?

# 803 A:

[Name Deleted]'s mom? [Name Deleted]? Yeah, I don't know.

# 804 Q:

Have you ever talked to the Berman family about their conversations with Nicole on the evening of June 12th?

# 805 A:

No.

# 806 Q:

Have you ever talked to [Name Deleted]'s family about this event on June

# 807 A:

No.

# 808 Q:

3 or 4?

# 809 A:

No.

# 810 Q:

Okay. Did your child sleep over Nicole's house any time in the month of June of 1994?

# 811 A:

Any time?

# 812 Q:

Yes. At Bundy.

# 813 A:

I'm sure, yes.

# 814 Q:

Did she sleep over on the evening of June 3 with

# 815 A:

June 3?

# 816 Q:

Yes. with Sydney at Bundy?

# 817 A:

I don't remember, no.

# 818 Q:

You don't remember?

# 819 A:

No.

# 820 Q:

Have you ever seen have you ever met Bruce Clemens, Nicole's divorce lawyer?

# 821 A:

No.

# 822 Q:

Nicole ever tell you about being beat up by O.J. Simpson so bad in her house and in the wine closet?

# 823 A:

No, I didn't know that.

# 824 Q:

Okay. You recognize this handwriting where Nicole wrote down a number of the beatings she suffered at the hands of O.J. Simpson during her marriage?

# 825 ROBERT BAKER:

Lacks foundation. Leading.

# 826

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 827 Q:

Do you recognize that handwriting to be Nicole's?

# 828 A:

Yes.

# 829 Q:

You surprised Nicole didn't tell you about those things?

# 830 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 831 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 832

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 833 Q:

Do you have any feel she might have been too embarrassed to tell you?

# 834 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 835

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 836 Q:

You can answer.

# 837 A:

I don't know why, and I question why.

# 838 Q:

You think she might have been too ashamed to tell you about these things?

# 839 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation.

# 840 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know. Could be. I don't know.

# 841

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 842 Q:

Could be?

# 843 A:

I don't know.

# 844 Q:

Could be?

# 845 A:

Why?

# 846 Q:

Excuse me?

# 847 A:

I said "Why? Why didn't she tell me?"

# 848 Q:

Why do you think she didn't tell you?

# 849 A:

I don't know. She embarrassed? I don't know.

# 850 Q:

Would you be embarrassed or ashamed to tell people these things if they happened to you?

# 851 A:

Would I talk about it?

# 852 Q:

Yes.

# 853 A:

No.

# 854 Q:

Would you feel a sense of shame or embarrassment to talk about these things?

# 855 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading and irrelevant.

# 856

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 857 Q:

That a fair statement?

# 858 A:

I wouldn't talk about it.

# 859 Q:

Huh?

# 860 A:

I wouldn't talk about it.

# 861 Q:

You wouldn't talk about it. Right?

# 862 A:

Yes.

# 863 Q:

Did she tell you about an incident in 1988 when a gay man in Hawaii kissed Justin, and O.J. threw her against the wall in her hotel and on the floor and put bruises on her arms and back? Did she tell you about that event?

# 864 A:

No.

# 865 Q:

Okay. Did that refresh your recollection at all? Okay.

# 866 ROBERT BAKER:

What was your answer?

# 867

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 868 Q:

Does that refresh your recollection as to whether she ever

# 869 A:

I didn't know about that.

# 870 Q:

told you about that event?

# 871 A:

No, never told me.

# 872 Q:

And she writes here that in 1978 O.J. beat her up for the first time after Louis and Nunie Marx's anniversary party. Do you know who Louis Marx is? Ever hear that name?

# 873 A:

No.

# 874 Q:

Okay. "Started on the street corner of New York City [sic] 5th Avenue at about 9:00 o'clock. Threw me on the floor hit me kicked me. We went to Sherry Netherland Hotel where he continued to beat me for hours as I kept crawling for the door. Called my mother a whore." She tell you any of that?

# 875 A:

No.

# 876 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you what O.J. Simpson's feelings towards her mother were?

# 877 A:

I'm Sorry. What?

# 878 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you what O.J. Simpson's feelings and attitude toward Juditha Brown were?

# 879 A:

No.

# 880 Q:

Did you ever discuss that with O.J. Simpson?

# 881 A:

No.

# 882 Q:

Okay. Did O.J. excuse me. Did you know that O.J. Simpson had lost a child in his prior marriage?

# 883 A:

Yes.

# 884 Q:

Who told you that?

# 885 A:

It was in the news.

# 886 Q:

Did you ever talk to O.J. Simpson about that?

# 887 A:

No.

# 888 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you about that?

# 889 A:

Yes, Nicole mentioned that.

# 890 Q:

Okay. Did she say that O.J. Simpson blamed her for that?

# 891 A:

No.

# 892 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you about an incident where O.J. Simpson, and I am reading from her notes here, "smashed my car (white Mercedes) with baseball bat after visiting [Name Deleted]"?

# 893 A:

No.

# 894 Q:

"He greeted me at the gate I was too afraid to get out of the car. He did it because I was late, about 7 to [sic] 8 p.m. Westec Security was notified and came. Also the West LAPD came." Do you know anything about that?

# 895 A:

No.

# 896 Q:

Do you know who [Name Deleted] is?

# 897 A:

[Name Deleted]?

# 898 Q:

Yes.

# 899 A:

Yes.

# 900 Q:

And who is [Name Deleted]?

# 901 A:

She was a friend of Nicole.

# 902 Q:

Is [Name Deleted] related to [Name Deleted]?

# 903 A:

Yes.

# 904 Q:

Is that the wife of [Name Deleted]?

# 905 A:

No. The daughter.

# 906 Q:

The daughter of [Name Deleted]?

# 907 A:

Uh-huh.

# 908 Q:

That's a friend of Nicole's?

# 909 A:

Yes.

# 910 Q:

Okay. She never told you about that incident?

# 911 A:

No.

# 912 Q:

The next item on Exhibit 88, from which I'm reading, says:

"Michael Millitello's wedding at Ritz Carlton. O.J. lost his temper at the beach house hit me, threw me up against the walls. Threw my camera, it broke the paneling the moldings off the doors to the master bedroom and garage door." Did she ever tell you about that incident?

# 913 A:

No.

# 914 Q:

Do you know who Michael Millitello is?

# 915 A:

No.

# 916 Q:

Name mean anything to you.,

# 917 A:

No.

# 918 Q:

What about Eric and Val Von Watts? That name

# 919 A:

No.

# 920 Q:

mean anything to you? Nicole wrote to her lawyer, Bruce Clemens, in sending these materials over to him:

"The [sic] dates are almost impossible for me to remember. These are the most memorable times there were plenty of small times where he'd just pushed me or grabbed me hard enough to bruise my arms but they happened so often that I can't remember specifics Nicole." Did you ever see O.J. Simpson push Nicole or grab her?

# 921 A:

No.

# 922 Q:

Of course, you never saw Withdrawn. Did you learn of any dispute or argument between Ron Fischman and Nicole about your going out with [Name Deleted]?

# 923 A:

Do I know?

# 924 Q:

Yeah. This is not the incident on June 11

# 925 A:

No.

# 926 Q:

but prior in time.

# 927 A:

No.

# 928 Q:

When Ron and Nicole had an argument, and then Nicole called O.J. Simpson up and asked O.J. Simpson to speak to Ron?

# 929 A:

I didn't know that.

# 930 Q:

You knew nothing about that?

# 931 A:

No.

# 932 Q:

Okay. You were not at the Jenners' Christmas party in 1993

# 933 A:

No.

# 934 Q:

correct? Did you tell O.J. Simpson that when the prosecutors interviewed you in this case, they tried to slant your testimony or make you lie? Did you tell that to O.J. Simpson that the prosecutors

# 935 A:

They didn't make me lie, but they trying to accuse me of saying, "How could you be Nicole's friend if you don't know anything about the abuse?" I said, "But, you know, I never saw it."

# 936 Q:

You never saw it. Right?

# 937 A:

Yeah.

# 938 Q:

That doesn't mean it didn't happen. Right?

# 939 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading and argumentative.

# 940 CORA FISCHMAN:

I never saw I thought it didn't happen, so

# 941

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 942 Q:

Now that I have shown you those notes of Nicole's, you don't have any reason to believe that Nicole made all that up, do you?

# 943 A:

I don't think so.

# 944 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 945

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 946 Q:

You don't think so, do you?

# 947 A:

No.

# 948 Q:

Did you ask O.J. Simpson to have some footballs signed in 1994 and that he refused to do so for you? Do you recall that incident?

# 949 A:

Well, it was sitting there, and then he just I thought he just, you know, he didn't sign it.

# 950 Q:

You asked him to have the footballs signed for you.

# 951 A:

Well, no, I didn't what happened was, I had Gigi said, "If he has time, could you please sign these." These were not, you know these were from a friend of mine.

# 952 Q:

And he was upset with you, and he didn't sign them initially. Correct?

# 953 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 954 CORA FISCHMAN:

So at the time I didn't know he was upset with me.

# 955 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay. Hold on. We need to change tapes real fast. We are almost finished.

THEVIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1 of Volume III. The time is approximately 12:44, and we are off the record.

# 956 (Brief recess.)

# 957

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 958 Q:

Now, before the tape change I was asking you about an incident where you had requested O.J. Simpson to sign footballs, and you learned that he would not do so because he was upset with you. Could you relate that incident to us and tell us when it occurred?

# 959 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 960 CORA FISCHMAN:

I just found out later on when Nicole told me that O.J. was upset with me, but I thought he was just busy because he was out of town, and I had left that you know, I told Gigi to have him sign those.

# 961

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 962 Q:

Why did Nicole Excuse me. Did Nicole tell you why O.J. was upset with you?

# 963 A:

At that time I thought that because of my affair.

# 964 Q:

Do you know why Mr. Simpson would be upset with you about your affair, particularly since he had a history of infidelity on his own part?

# 965 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation. Argumentative.

# 966 CORA FISCHMAN:

Because he thought that the reason why Nicole was going out he thought that we were always going out, Nicole and I.

# 967

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 968 Q:

He was in other words, you got the feeling that O.J. Simpson was blaming you for Nicole's independence from him and her going out.

# 969 A:

Exactly.

# 970 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 971 CORA FISCHMAN:

All of the, you know

# 972

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 973 Q:

All the going out.

# 974 A:

Right.

# 975 Q:

And you feel and you got the sense that O.J. Simpson was blaming you in part for the problems he was having in his relationship with Nicole. Correct?

# 976 A:

Yes.

# 977 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation. Leading.

# 978

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 979 Q:

Correct?

# 980 A:

Yes.

# 981 Q:

And that's what Nicole told you. Correct?

# 982 A:

Yes.

# 983 Q:

Okay. Do you believe you did play a part in O.J. Simpson's problems with Nicole during this time?

# 984 A:

No, I don't think so.

# 985 Q:

So you think O.J. Simpson was off base, then?

# 986 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 987 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes, I think so.

# 988

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 989 Q:

Now, you were spending substantial amounts of time with [Name Deleted]

# 990 A:

That's

# 991 Q:

throughout May and June of 1994. Correct?

# 992 ROBERT BAKER:

Irrelevant

# 993 CORA FISCHMAN:

What do you

# 994 ROBERT BAKER:

vague.

# 995 CORA FISCHMAN:

mean "substantial"?

# 996 (Discussion held off the record.) (Pending question read.)

# 997 ROBERT BAKER:

Okay. Irrelevant and vague.

# 998

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 999 Q:

You may answer.

# 1000 A:

May and June, you said?

# 1001 Q:

Yes.

# 1002 A:

Not substantial amount. What do you mean, "substantial amount"?

# 1003 Q:

Several times a week. Three or four days a week.

# 1004 A:

Yes.

# 1005 Q:

You were not home very often. Correct?

# 1006 A:

I was home most of the time, yes.

# 1007 Q:

Didn't O.J. Simpson blow up with you in a telephone call when you were pressing him to sign the footballs?

# 1008 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague and leading.

# 1009 CORA FISCHMAN:

Blow up?

# 1010

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1011 Q:

Yeah. Didn't he have a conversation with you in which he was upset with you and told you so when you had asked him about the footballs?

# 1012 A:

I never asked about the footballs.

# 1013 Q:

Did you have a conversation with him in May or June of 1994 in which he was upset with you?

# 1014 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered. Leading.

# 1015 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't remember.

# 1016

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1017 Q:

You don't remember any conversations with him in which he was upset with you.

# 1018 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 1019

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1020 Q:

Is that what you're saying?

# 1021 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered. Leading.

# 1022 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't remember, because no, I don't remember, no.

# 1023

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1024 Q:

By the way, that incident that Mr. Kelly asked you about this morning concerning Tryst, when you left the restaurant, was there anyone else there in your party?

# 1025 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 1026 CORA FISCHMAN:

Was there anyone else there?

# 1027

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1028 Q:

In your party's still there at the table, right.

# 1029 A:

We all left at the same time.

# 1030 Q:

So the answer is no?

# 1031 A:

No.

# 1032 Q:

Is that what you're saying?

# 1033 A:

Yes.

# 1034 Q:

It's true that you bolted out of there, you were so upset. Correct?

# 1035 ROBERT BAKER:

Asked and answered. Argumentative.

# 1036 CORA FISCHMAN:

Who was upset?

# 1037

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1038 Q:

You were.

# 1039 A:

I was not upset.

# 1040 Q:

At O.J. Simpson's reaction and his behavior.

# 1041 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative

# 1042 CORA FISCHMAN:

I was not upset.

# 1043 ROBERT BAKER:

asked and answered.

# 1044 CORA FISCHMAN:

We had a good time then.

# 1045

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1046 Q:

Do you remember an incident at Los Brisas or Las Brisas where you were with Faye Resnick, Nicole, Cici and Ron Fischman and O.J. Simpson and Christian Reichardt in which the Simpsons started going on a tirade against smoking? Do you remember that?

# 1047 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative. Vague. Leading.

# 1048 CORA FISCHMAN:

What's "tirade" mean? It's like angry and stuff?

# 1049

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1050 Q:

Yes, angry

# 1051 A:

No, it was not-it was a conversation. I wouldn't say an angry conversation, no.

# 1052 Q:

But he was protesting the smoking by the women. Right?

# 1053 A:

Yeah.

# 1054 Q:

Okay. And he got so loud that the women got up and walked out of the restaurant. True?

# 1055 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading

# 1056 CORA FISCHMAN:

# 1057 ROBERT BAKER:

argumentative.

# 1058 CORA FISCHMAN:

that's not true.

# 1059

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1060 Q:

Did you get up to leave because he was speaking so loudly?

# 1061 Q:

No. We got up because no. They got up first. Faye and Nicole got up first and to have to smoke, and that was it, and then I followed them.

# 1062 Q:

So while Simpson is ranting and raving about smoking, Nicole and Faye get up to go out and have a cigarette.

# 1063 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative

# 1064

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1065 Q:

Is that right?

# 1066 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative

# 1067 CORA FISCHMAN:

# 1068 PHILIP KRAMER:

Let him finish his objection.

# 1069 ROBERT BAKER:

Argumentative. Vague. Leading.

You can answer.

# 1070 CORA FISCHMAN:

It wasn't that way, no. It wasn't that ranting and raving. We were just we were talking, you know. There was no argument then.

# 1071

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1072 Q:

Not at all.

# 1073 A:

No.

# 1074 Q:

It was a friendly, pleasant, affable discussion. Is that

# 1075 A:

# 1076 Q:

what you're saying?

# 1077 A:

I wouldn't say friendly. It was like we were debating the pros and con of smoking.

# 1078 Q:

What was Simpson's point of view in that debate?

# 1079 A:

That he doesn't like he's a non-smoker.

# 1080 Q:

He didn't like Nicole smoking. True?

# 1081 A:

He didn't like Nicole smoking, yeah.

# 1082 Q:

He would never buy her a cigarette lighter, would he?

# 1083 ROBERT BAKER:

Speculation. Argumentative.

# 1084 (No audible response.)

# 1085

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1086 Q:

Did you ever see him

# 1087 JOHN KELLY:

Was there an answer I'm sorry. Was there an answer to that?

# 1088 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I'm waiting for the answer.

# 1089 CORA FISCHMAN:

Oh, I didn't know I thought you were just

# 1090

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1091 Q:

He wouldn't buy her based on what you observed and knew of Mr. Simpson's position about Nicole's smoking, you don't think he would buy her a cigarette lighter, do you?

# 1092 ROBERT BAKER:

Same objections.

# 1093 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes, I guess so.

# 1094

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1095 Q:

You guess what?

# 1096 A:

Why would someone buy someone I don't know. I mean, why would if you're a non-smoker

# 1097 Q:

Exactly. That wouldn't make sense to you. Correct?

# 1098 A:

Correct.

# 1099 Q:

You ever see a gold Cartier cigarette lighter that Nicole got in the last months of her life?

# 1100 A:

I never saw that. I didn't see it.

# 1101 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

# 1102

EXAMINATION

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Cora Fischman

I think Faye's mouth, I think everything as a lie.

Cora categorically rejects Faye Resnick's anticipated testimony — including the claim that O.J. told Faye he would kill Nicole — undercutting a potentially important witness for the plaintiffs.

Cora Fischman

She said, 'I can't believe this man is trying to put me into jail. I'm the mother of, you know, the kids — I'm the mother of his kids, and he wants me to go to jail.'

Cora recounts what Nicole told her after the June 3rd IRS confrontation, corroborating that Nicole was upset and called Cora the same day it happened.

Daniel Petrocelli

You hung [sic] up on me last night. You're gonna pay for this, bitch, you're holding money from the IRS, you're going to jail you f-----g c--t... I'll see to it. You're not gonna have a f-----g dime left bitch.

Petrocelli reads O.J. Simpson's words as written in Nicole's own hand in Exhibit 86, placing extreme verbal abuse and financial threats just nine days before Nicole's murder.

Cora Fischman

I'm shocked now because of what I —

Cora's spontaneous reaction upon seeing Nicole's handwritten catalogue of beatings (Exhibit 88), confirming she had never been told about most of the abuse.

Cora Fischman

She only told me the 1989. That was the only incident that — I thought that was the only incident.

Reveals how little Nicole confided about the full scope of the abuse, even to her closest friend — a pattern Petrocelli uses to argue Nicole was ashamed, not that the abuse didn't happen.

Evidence (3)

Exhibit 86

Nicole Brown Simpson's handwritten diary/notes including the June 3, 1994 entry documenting O.J. Simpson's threatening, profanity-laced phone call about the IRS situation

Introduced and read aloud to witness

Exhibit 88

Nicole Brown Simpson's handwritten letter to her divorce lawyer Bruce Clemens cataloguing specific beatings by O.J. Simpson across years of the marriage, including incidents in 1978 (Sherry Netherland Hotel, NYC), 1988 (Hawaii), the Mercedes smashing with a baseball bat, and Michael Millitello's wedding

Introduced and read aloud to witness

Informal

Star magazine article for which Cora was paid to provide information, referenced regarding Nicole's diamond earrings

Discussed to establish prior statements

Notable Exchanges (4)

Daniel Petrocelli•Cora Fischman

Petrocelli reads Nicole's handwritten diary entries describing beatings across the marriage — the Sherry Netherland Hotel (1978), Hawaii (1988), the smashed Mercedes, the Ritz Carlton beach house — as Cora repeatedly says 'No, she never told me.' Cora visibly reacts when she sees the abuse logs for the first time.

devastating

Daniel Petrocelli•Cora Fischman

Petrocelli presses Cora on whether she would believe Faye Resnick and Christian Reichardt if they both testified under oath that O.J. said 'I'm going to kill Nicole.' Cora refuses to believe Faye at all, then wavers on Christian before concluding he'd be telling the truth — inadvertently conceding the threat may be credible.

strategic

Daniel Petrocelli•Cora Fischman

Extended back-and-forth over whether Cora's prior testimony about the June 3 IRS incident was consistent. Cora insists she only knew Nicole was upset about the IRS, not the specific language, while Petrocelli pushes her to acknowledge she knew about the fight earlier than she implied.

heated

Daniel Petrocelli•Cora Fischman

Petrocelli establishes that O.J. told Cora his custody situation must await resolution of the civil lawsuit, then asks whether it's important to her that the children be with their father. Cora confirms it is, handing Petrocelli a motive for her to shade testimony protectively.

strategic

Light Moments (2)

Cora Fischman

When asked if she'd ever been to McDonald's with O.J. Simpson, Cora visibly struggles — 'McDonald's? Probably. Oh, no, no, no, I don't think so' — before landing on no.

Philip Kramer

Philip Kramer (Cora's attorney) interjects mid-examination to ask Petrocelli 'is this — are you halfway through your four questions at this point?' apparently keeping count of a prior limit Petrocelli agreed to.

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Faye Resnick

Witness opinion / character attack

Cora volunteers that she disbelieves everything Faye says, calling her a liar without qualification. Petrocelli uses this to probe whether Cora would also disbelieve Christian Reichardt — and Cora ultimately concedes Christian might be telling the truth, weakening her blanket dismissal.

⚔ Cora Fischman

Prior inconsistent statement

Petrocelli confronts Cora with testimony she gave a day or two earlier about when she first learned of the June 3 IRS fight, arguing she is now mischaracterizing what she said. Cora insists she only knew about the general argument, not the specific language.

⚔ Cora Fischman

Bias / motive to protect

Petrocelli asks directly whether Cora is reluctant to say things that might hurt O.J. Simpson, and whether her concern for his children having their father in their lives is shaping her testimony. Cora denies it, but the exchange seeds doubt about her objectivity.

Witness Demeanor

Witness answers many questions with halting, fragmented speech suggesting genuine uncertainty or emotional processing

Witness asks 'You said four questions' mid-examination, tracking limits on Petrocelli's remaining questions

(Witness shakes head) in response to question about Nicole working out at The Gym

Frequent 'I don't know' and self-corrections throughout, suggesting an uncoached, unpolished witness

Witness appears genuinely distressed recounting the phone call with Ron Fischman before the deposition

Objections

42 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

3 Cross-examination of Ms. Fischman by Robert Baker

Examiner: Robert Baker • Type: cross • 275 utterances

📜 Daniel Petrocelli 🛡️ Robert Baker 📜 John Kelly

Baker cross-examines Nicole Brown Simpson's close friend Cora Fischman about the cleanup of the Bundy crime scene on June 14, 1994 — the day after the murders. He methodically establishes that Ron Hardy and Rolf (Maria's husband) were hosing down the walkway, back gate area, and exterior for approximately the entire hour Fischman was present, with no police officers or crime scene tape remaining. Baker also extracts a prior statement from a Michael Viner interview in which Fischman said she 'never saw Nicole with bruises,' and elicits her belief that O.J. Simpson is a good father.

# 1

BY MR. BAKER:

# 2 Q:

On June 14th what time did you arrive at the Bundy condo?

# 3 PHILIP KRAMER:

This is the Tuesday?

# 4 ROBERT BAKER:

The Tuesday.

# 5 Q:

June 14th, what time did you arrive at the Bundy condo?

# 6 A:

Later afternoon.

# 7 Q:

Who was there?

# 8 A:

Who was there?

# 9 (Nods head.)

# 10 A:

The Browns I mean, you know the girls, Tanya, Denise and Dominique, and then A.C. and Ron Hardy..

# 11 Q:

And how long had they been there? Do you know?

# 12 A:

When I was there, they were all there already, so I don't know how long.

# 13 Q:

Did anyone tell you what time they arrived on June 14th?

# 14 A:

I don't know what time, no. Nobody told me.

# 15 Q:

How did you get into the condominium on June 14?

# 16 A:

The gate was open because Ron Hardy was cleaning the front yard.

# 17 Q:

The gate was open on Bundy?

# 18 A:

Yeah.

# 19 Q:

And Ron Hardy was kind of cleaning the walkway?

# 20 A:

Right.

# 21 Q:

How was he cleaning it?

# 22 A:

Hosing it.

# 23 Q:

Did you talk to him while he was hosing the walkway?

# 24 A:

No, not really, no.

# 25 Q:

He was just using one of the hoses

# 26 A:

Yeah, right.

# 27 Q:

around the condo? And he was spraying the walkway beside Nicole's condominium. True?

# 28 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 29 Q:

And he was spraying all around the walkway around the condominium. True?

# 30 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection to this question as leading and the prior one as leading. Move to strike the answer.

# 31 ROBERT BAKER:

Did you get her answer?

# 32 THE REPORTER:

No.

# 33 CORA FISCHMAN:

What? I'm sorry.

# 34

BY MR. BAKER:

# 35 Q:

And he was spraying all around the condominium. True?

# 36 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection

# 37 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 38 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

leading. You have to give me time to object.

# 39 ROBERT BAKER:

Did you get her answer, Dave?

# 40 THE REPORTER:

Yes.

# 41

BY MR. BAKER:

# 42 Q:

Who else was outside cleaning around the condominium?

# 43 A:

I don't remember.

# 44 Q:

Did anyone say they had found anything unusual outside the condominium on June 14th?

# 45 A:

No.

# 46 Q:

How much of Nicole's condominium had been packed by the time you arrived there?

# 47 A:

Almost everything already.

# 48 Q:

So it appeared to you that they had been there for quite a long time. True?

# 49 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 50 CORA FISCHMAN:

True.

# 51

BY MR. BAKER:

# 52 Q:

And what portions of the condominium did you pack?

# 53 A:

Upstairs.

# 54 Q:

Who were you packing that with?

# 55 A:

I was upstairs, and then A.C. walked upstairs, too.

# 56 Q:

And had the upstairs been pretty much packed up by the time you got there?

# 57 A:

Yes.

# 58 Q:

Do you recall what you packed of Nicole's belongings?

# 59 A:

Her closet and, you know, her lingerie and everything, you know, whatever was in that bathroom closet.

# 60 Q:

What did you pack of hers other than clothing?

# 61 A:

That was pretty much...

# 62 Q:

And what did you put it in?

# 63 A:

Trash bag.

# 64 Q:

Who did you give those trash bags to?

# 65 A:

To A.C. Gave everything to A.C.

# 66 Q:

And were the trash bags all kind of grouped together downstairs?

# 67 A:

Yes.

# 68 Q:

And Juditha was there. Correct?

# 69 A:

I don't remember, no. I don't know.

# 70 Q:

Do you remember Lou being there?

# 71 A:

I think Lou was there.

# 72 Q:

And Dominique was there?

# 73 A:

Right.

# 74 Q:

And Denise was there?

# 75 A:

Yes.

# 76 Q:

And who else was there?

# 77 A:

Ron Hardy.

# 78 Q:

Do you know why Ron Hardy was washing the walkway?

# 79 A:

Why?

# 80 (Nods head.)

# 81 A:

I don't know. I guess cleaning up, so I don't know.

# 82 Q:

Was the area around the walkway all wet when you were there on June 14th?

# 83 A:

Yes. It was pretty much clean already.

# 84 Q:

They had cleaned it up?

# 85 A:

Yes.

# 86 Q:

And was the water around the walkway clean up and down the walkway

# 87 A:

Yes.

# 88 Q:

to the back gate?

# 89 A:

Uh-huh.

# 90 Q:

Is that a yes?

# 91 A:

Yes.

# 92 Q:

So the back gate was wet. True?

# 93 A:

Yes.

# 94 Q:

Now, you said earlier that you saw some paw prints when you arrived at Nicole's condominium

# 95 A:

Yes.

# 96 Q:

on June 13. True?

# 97 A:

True.

# 98 Q:

Where did you see those paw prints?

# 99 A:

Driveway, all the way to the sidewalk around all over.

# 100 Q:

And the paw prints came down the driveway.

# 101 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading.

# 102 CORA FISCHMAN:

Not driveway. Where the gate is.

# 103

BY MR. BAKER:

# 104 Q:

Okay.

# 105 A:

Okay? To the front you know, the sidewalk.

# 106 Q:

And the paw prints went in which direction?

# 107 A:

Going going south.

# 108 Q:

Towards Wilshire?

# 109 A:

Towards Wilshire.

# 110 Q:

Was anybody else cleaning up the outside of the condominium that you saw?

# 111 A:

Oh, you know who was there, too? Ralph.

# 112 Q:

Ralph who?

# 113 A:

Ralph, you know, Maria's husband.

# 114 Q:

Oh, Rolf. Rolf.

# 115 A:

Rolf. Rolf. Yeah.

# 116 Q:

And what was he doing?

# 117 A:

He was outside.

# 118 Q:

He was outside cleaning up.

# 119 A:

Yes, with Ron.

# 120 Q:

How was he cleaning up the outside walkway?

# 121 A:

He was there, you know. He was cleaning up. They were both outside.

# 122 Q:

Was he washing the area down?

# 123 A:

Yes. Pretty much they were.

# 124 Q:

Was there any police tape around the walkway on June 14th?

# 125 A:

At that time, no more.

# 126 Q:

Were there any police officers around?

# 127 A:

No more.

# 128 Q:

Did you talk to Rolf on June 14th?

# 129 A:

No.

# 130 Q:

How long did you spend at her condominium on June 14th?

# 131 A:

Oh, I would say an hour.

# 132 Q:

But by the time you had gotten there, the apartment was pretty much all cleaned up. True?

# 133 A:

Yes.

# 134 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading. Move to strike the answer.

# 135

BY MR. BAKER:

# 136 Q:

Did you take anything with you?

# 137 A:

No.

# 138 Q:

Did Alvia or how do you pronounce

# 139 A:

Alvia.

# 140 Q:

Alvia take anything with her?

# 141 A:

She took her belongings.

# 142 Q:

Did you see her collect her belongings?

# 143 A:

No.

# 144 Q:

And what were her belongings in?

# 145 A:

It was downstairs in what do you mean? Like in

# 146 Q:

Did she put them in a trash bag?

# 147 A:

I don't remember.

# 148 Q:

Did anybody look through the belongings that she took on that day that you saw?

# 149 A:

No.

# 150 Q:

Have you ever met with Mr. Petrocelli outside of my presence regarding this litigation?

# 151 A:

No.

# 152 Q:

Have you ever read anything in the past days past two days regarding this litigation?

# 153 A:

No.

# 154 Q:

Have you ever been handed any notes or documents to prepare you for your testimony?

# 155 A:

No.

# 156 Q:

Have you met Mr. Kelly outside of my presence regarding this litigation?

# 157 A:

No.

# 158 Q:

Mr. Brewer?

# 159 A:

No.

# 160 Q:

Natasha?

# 161 A:

No.

# 162 Q:

Peter Gelblum.

# 163 A:

Who is Peter?

# 164 Q:

Man with the beard who came in every once in a while.

# 165 A:

No.

# 166 Q:

Now, you were shown Exhibit 165,which was the transcript of your interview with Barbara Walters. True?

# 167 A:

True.

# 168 Q:

And when you sat with Barbara Walters, they taped a great deal of your interview. True?

# 169 A:

True.

# 170 Q:

And did-what they showed on TV, was that everything that you said to Barbara Walters?

# 171 A:

Pretty much, yes.

# 172 Q:

Every single comment you said to Barbara Walters in your interview was aired on the show "20/20"?

# 173 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading

# 174 CORA FISCHMAN:

Everything?

# 175 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

and argumentative.

# 176 PHILIP KRAMER:

Do you understand the question?

# 177 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't remember. I mean, when you mean "everything," I mean, we talked afterwards and we talked prior to that, so

# 178

BY MR. BAKER:

# 179 Q:

When they turned on the cameras

# 180 A:

Yes.

# 181 Q:

and they had you speaking with Barbara Walters and when they strut off the cameras, when you eventually saw that program on TV, did they show your entire interview with Barbara Walters?

# 182 A:

They showed entire interview? Yes.

# 183 Q:

Every single clip, every single question she asked you was shown on the "20/20" show.

# 184 JOHN KELLY:

Objection. Asked and answered.

# 185 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Compound. Leading, argumentative and

# 186 JOHN KELLY:

Harassing the witness.

# 187 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

asked and answered.

# 188 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know.

# 189

BY MR. BAKER:

# 190 Q:

Do you remember how long your interview with Miss Walters was?

# 191 A:

I would say an hour, less than an hour, something like that.

# 192 Q:

45 minutes?

# 193 A:

Yeah.

# 194 Q:

Have you ever talked spoken with Rolf since you saw him on June 14th?

# 195 A:

No.

# 196 Q:

Have you ever spoken with Ron Hardy since you saw him on June 14th?

# 197 A:

Yes.

# 198 Q:

When?

# 199 A:

The day after I did the Barbara Walters or after the Barbara Walters episode was shown.

# 200 Q:

What did he say to you?

# 201 A:

Well, I called him up because I was upset with him.

# 202 Q:

Why were you upset with him?

# 203 A:

Because he went to "Inside" one of the "Inside Edition" and made a comment how what kind of a friend I was to be revealing all of these things about Nicole.

# 204 Q:

And you were upset with him because you were telling the truth in that interview with Barbara Walters. True?

# 205 A:

Well, because I said, "If I ever talked, I am going to tell the truth," yes.

# 206 Q:

Any other conversations with Ron Hardy?

# 207 A:

That was the last time.

# 208 Q:

Do you believe O.J. Simpson's a good father?

# 209 A:

I would say he was a good father, yes.

KEY QUOTE

# 210 Q:

Do you still believe he's a good father?

# 211 A:

Yes.

# 212 Q:

This coffee shop that Nicole was going to open up, did she tell you where she was going to open this coffee shop up?

# 213 A:

Did she tell me?

# 214 (Nods head.)

# 215 A:

No. First she talked about the one by Starbucks in Santa Monica, but that was it.

# 216 Q:

When did she tell you about that?

# 217 A:

She told me at some point in time that she was going to open a business, something...

# 218 Q:

And she wanted

# 219 A:

She mentioned that to O.J., too, at some point, so...

# 220 Q:

And she wanted to open it up in Brentwood?

# 221 A:

Yes.

# 222 Q:

Right by the Starbucks on San Vicente?

# 223 A:

Right.

# 224 Q:

And this coffee shop that she wanted to open up in Brentwood in the San Vicente area?

# 225 A:

Right.

# 226 Q:

And when did she want to open that coffee shop up?

# 227 A:

When?

# 228 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Lacks foundation.

# 229 CORA FISCHMAN:

I don't know. She thought about it, so I don't know when.

# 230

BY MR. BAKER:

# 231 Q:

When did she tell you about this?

# 232 A:

Oh, she told me again like around '94. I don't know when.

# 233 Q:

Did you take Alvia home on June 14th after you left Nicole's condo?

# 234 A:

No.

# 235 Q:

How did she get home? Do you know?

# 236 A:

I think it was Lou. Lou took her home.

# 237 Q:

Were people waving up and down the walkway on June 14th?

# 238 A:

Walkway?

# 239 (Nods head.)

# 240 A:

Yes.

# 241 Q:

Did anybody go out the back gate that you saw?

# 242 A:

No, I didn't see anybody.

# 243 Q:

Did you see anybody walk through the garage?

# 244 A:

Well, the garage door was open. That's where the cars were, the two Cherokee, and it was already full of

# 245 Q:

Okay.

# 246 A:

Nicole's belongings.

# 247 Q:

How did you leave

# 248 A:

How did I leave?

# 249 Q:

the Bundy condo on June 14th?

# 250 A:

I left the front, front gate.

# 251 Q:

You walked out of her front door walked down the walkway and walked out the front gate.

# 252 A:

Right.

# 253 Q:

And Ron and Rolf were still out there cleaning. True?

# 254 A:

At that time, yes, they were still out.

# 255 Q:

So the entire time that you were in Nicole's condo on June 14th, Rolf and Ron were cleaning the outside area. True?

# 256 A:

True.

# 257 Q:

And you were there more than an hour?

# 258 A:

I would say not more that an hour, no. It was

# 259 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection to the last two questions as leading. Move to strike the answers.

# 260 CORA FISCHMAN:

I would say about an hour, yes.

# 261

BY MR. BAKER:

# 262 Q:

About an hour? What did you say to them when you were leaving? Do you remember?

# 263 A:

I don't remember.

# 264 Q:

When Ron Goldman or when Nicole told you that Ron had driven Nicole's car, what time of day was that?

# 265 A:

When Ron Goldman drove the car?

# 266 Q:

Yes.

# 267 A:

It was in the evening.

# 268 Q:

Okay. It was dark out?

# 269 A:

Yes.

# 270 Q:

Now, in your interview with Michael Viner on page 25, you state, "I never saw Nicole with bruises." At page 25, line 10. You were telling the truth to Michael Viner. True?

# 271 A:

True.

# 272 ROBERT BAKER:

I've got nothing further.

# 273 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Nothing further at this point.

# 274 JOHN KELLY:

Oh, just can you pick me up just speaking here?

# 275

EXAMINATION

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Cora Fischman

I never saw Nicole with bruises.

Baker cites this directly from her Michael Viner interview, page 25 line 10, as a prior inconsistent statement undermining the domestic violence narrative central to the plaintiffs' case.

Cora Fischman

True.

Fischman repeatedly confirms, under Baker's leading questions, that Ron Hardy and Rolf were cleaning and hosing the exterior walkway and back gate area for the entire hour she was at Bundy on June 14 — with no police present.

Cora Fischman

If I ever talked, I am going to tell the truth.

Her explanation for why she was upset at Ron Hardy going to Inside Edition to criticize her Barbara Walters interview — positions her as a truth-teller but also shows friction among Nicole's inner circle.

Cora Fischman

Yes. I would say he was a good father, yes.

Baker elicits this about O.J. Simpson — a humanizing moment for the defense, directly contradicting the plaintiffs' portrait of Simpson as an abusive, controlling presence.

Evidence (2)

Exhibit 165

Transcript of Fischman's interview with Barbara Walters, aired on '20/20'

Referenced; Baker probes whether the full interview was aired or if portions were cut

Informal

Michael Viner interview transcript, page 25 line 10 — Fischman states 'I never saw Nicole with bruises'

Used to impeach on domestic violence; Fischman confirms it was truthful

Notable Exchanges (4)

MR. BAKER•Cora Fischman

Baker systematically walks Fischman through the June 14 cleanup: Ron Hardy and Rolf hosing the walkway, back gate area wet, no police tape, no officers present — for the full hour she was there. Each detail confirmed with 'True.'

strategic

MR. BAKER•Cora Fischman

Baker asks whether Fischman met with any plaintiff attorneys (Petrocelli, Kelly, Brewer, Natasha, Gelblum) to prepare her testimony. She denies all contact.

procedural

MR. KELLY•Cora Fischman

Kelly follows up to clarify where exactly Hardy was hosing — establishing he was near the front gate, hosing toward the street — and confirms Fischman did not approach the back gate area.

clarifying

MR. BAKER•Cora Fischman

Baker asks about Ron Hardy calling Fischman's Barbara Walters appearance exploitative; she explains she called him upset because she was 'telling the truth.'

revealing

Light Moments (1)

Cora Fischman

Fischman can't remember the name 'Rolf' and keeps saying 'Ralph' — Baker gently corrects her twice before they land on the right name.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Cora Fischman

prior inconsistent statement

Baker confronts Fischman with her Michael Viner interview in which she stated she 'never saw Nicole with bruises' — she confirms it was truthful, undermining domestic violence testimony.

⚔ Cora Fischman

scope of media interview

Baker presses whether the Barbara Walters '20/20' interview showed 'every single' clip or was edited — Fischman is uncertain, suggesting her public statements may have been selectively presented.

Witness Demeanor

(Nods head.) used by Baker as question, noted in transcript

(Indicating) — witness physically demonstrates direction Hardy was hosing during Kelly's examination

Objections

12 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

4 Redirect examination of Ms. Fischman by John Kelly

Examiner: John Kelly • Type: redirect • 79 utterances

🛡️ Robert Baker 📜 Daniel Petrocelli

Mr. Kelly wraps up redirect by questioning Cora Fischman about where cleaning crews worked on June 14th (only the front gate area, never the back gate) and pressing her on a confrontational phone call she made to Ron Hardy after he reportedly told Barbara Walters she wasn't a real friend of Nicole's. The examination closes with procedural housekeeping on transcript review, punctuated by Fischman's genuine confusion about the word 'impeach.'

# 1

BY MR. KELLY:

# 2 Q:

When you arrived at Bundy on the 14th, could you tell me where Ron Hardy was with the hose when you saw him?

# 3 A:

He was outside by the how do I say this.

# 4 Q:

Okay. Well, relative to the front gate.

# 5 A:

Relative to the front gate, he was on the north side oh, no.

# 6 Q:

Was he closer to the street or closer to the condominium?

# 7 A:

Closer to the well, closer to the gate. Because he was hosing like this (Indicating) to the

# 8 Q:

He was by the gate hosing towards the front street. Would that be fair to say?

# 9 A:

Right. Uh-huh.

# 10 Q:

Okay. And when you passed him, you went up the front stairs and went in the front door. Is that correct?

# 11 A:

I went to the front door?

# 12 Q:

Yes.

# 13 A:

Yes.

# 14 Q:

Is that the sliding glass door in the very front?

# 15 A:

Sliding glass door?

# 16 Q:

Yeah. Or the door facing the very front of Bundy. There are two front doors, are there not?

# 17 A:

No, there's only one entrance: The front door.

# 18 Q:

And that's on the side of the condominium there?

# 19 A:

The side door is the one downstairs, but the front door of the condominium is the front, you know, there's a door. There's a gate, you walk in two steps, and then there's a front door.

# 20 Q:

On the left side there.

# 21 A:

Right.

# 22 Q:

Okay. Right as you get to the corner of the condominium.

# 23 A:

Right.

# 24 Q:

Okay. And when you came and you didn't go back along the side way, to the side of the condominium, did you at all?

# 25 A:

I don't remember. All I knew is I walked inside the house, so inside the condo.

# 26 Q:

Okay. Did you look down that sidewalk?

# 27 A:

No.

# 28 Q:

Towards the rear?

# 29 A:

The whole place was wet, so

# 30 Q:

Okay. Did you walk back towards the back gate at all?

# 31 A:

Back gate? I don't remember. I don't think so.

# 32 Q:

You didn't touch the back gate?

# 33 A:

No.

# 34 Q:

You didn't go near the back gate?

# 35 A:

No.

# 36 ROBERT BAKER:

Vague.

# 37

BY MR. KELLY:

# 38 Q:

Okay. And you don't even recall looking at the back gate, do you?

# 39 A:

If I don't recall?

# 40 Q:

Do you recall even looking at the back gate?

# 41 A:

No, I don't think so.

# 42 Q:

Okay. And when you came back downstairs after approximately an hour, where was Ron Hardy at that time?

# 43 A:

They were still outside.

# 44 Q:

In the front there?

# 45 A:

They were yeah.

# 46 Q:

Okay. And Rolf was still in the front also?

# 47 A:

Yeah, they were both outside.

# 48 Q:

Okay. You never saw them cleaning anywhere but in that front gate area, did you?

# 49 A:

I never saw them? No, I never saw them.

# 50 Q:

Okay. And one other thing: When you called Ron Hardy, you called him because isn't it a fact that he had told the producer, Barbara Walters, that you were not a real friend of Nicole's and that the Brown family didn't support you?

# 51 A:

Well, the Browns wanted me to talk to Barbara Walters. I didn't want to talk to Barbara Walters.

# 52 Q:

Right.

# 53 A:

But then what they told me was, "You cannot talk about the lesbian affair." I said, "You're putting me" "if they're gonna ask me questions, all I can say is tell the truth. I cannot deny anything.

# 54 Q:

Well, you didn't know about the lesbian affair from yourself, did you?

# 55 A:

From myself?

# 56 Q:

I mean, you didn't have personal knowledge of that.

# 57 A:

I don't have personal knowledge

# 58 Q:

Okay.

# 59 A:

but both of them told me.

# 60 Q:

Go on. I'm sorry.

# 61 A:

That's all.

# 62 Q:

Did you say anything to Ron Hardy to the effect of, "You don't know who you're messing with, and you're gonna be sorry for telling those people that"?

# 63 A:

No, I didn't say that. I said, "How could you do that?" you know. "I mean, who are you?" I mean, you know, I was upset with him, yes. I was upset with him.

# 64 Q:

Okay. But do you recall saying, "You don't know who you're messing with, and you're gonna be sorry for saying that"?

# 65 A:

No, I never said that.

KEY QUOTE

# 66 JOHN KELLY:

Okay. I have no further questions.

# 67 ROBERT BAKER:

The entire walkway was wet when you were there on June 14th?

# 68 CORA FISCHMAN:

Yes. They were all cleaning, yes.

# 69 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Objection. Leading. Move to strike the answer.

# 70 ROBERT BAKER:

No further questions.

# 71 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

The witness keeps answering before I can object. Can we have a stipulation to relieve the court reporter of his duties. The original transcript will be sent to Mr. Kramer on behalf of the witness. The witness will have 30 days from your receipt, Mr. Kramer, within which to review and sign the manuscript, and if it is not returned to us within 30 days after your receipt, then all parties stipulate that the manuscript can be used for all purposes in this case as though it had been signed, and it may be signed under penalty of perjury?

# 72 PHILIP KRAMER:

That's fine. If the witness and there wasn't the standard admonition. If the witness deems it appropriate to make changes, those changes will be made to the original, and I will return the original to you, Mr. Petrocelli.

And I am not assuming an obligation to advise other counsel of the changes unless they are all going to be listed on the manuscript. I don't know all the counsel involved. So, Mr. Petrocelli

# 73 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Well, send those to me. But let me caution the witness that if, you know, you make any changes in that deposition transcript, we can comment on those, and those comments may be used to impeach you. Okay?

# 74 ROBERT BAKER:

You going to give her admonitions after three days?

# 75 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yeah.

# 76 CORA FISCHMAN:

What does "impeach" mean? You mean I go to jail?

# 77 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Don't know about that. Thank you very much, Miss Fischman.

# 78 ROBERT BAKER:

Thank you.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Cora A. Fischman, Volume III. The number of videotapes used was two. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 1:12.

# 79 (ENDING TIME: 1:12 P.M.)

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (3)

Cora Fischman

But then what they told me was, 'You cannot talk about the lesbian affair.' I said, 'You're putting me' — 'if they're gonna ask me questions, all I can say is tell the truth. I cannot deny anything.'

Reveals that the Brown family actively tried to suppress testimony about Nicole's alleged lesbian affair, and that Fischman resisted that pressure.

Cora Fischman

What does 'impeach' mean? You mean I go to jail?

Genuine moment of confusion that humanizes the witness and provides comic relief at the close of a three-day deposition.

Cora Fischman

No, I never said that. I said, 'How could you do that?' you know. 'I mean, who are you?' I mean, you know, I was upset with him, yes. I was upset with him.

Fischman denies making a specific threatening statement to Ron Hardy while acknowledging she was genuinely angry with him — a partial concession that softens but doesn't eliminate the confrontational picture Kelly is painting.

Notable Exchanges (3)

Mr. Kelly•Cora Fischman

Kelly presses Fischman on whether she threatened Ron Hardy ('You don't know who you're messing with, and you're gonna be sorry'), implying she acted aggressively after Hardy undermined her to Barbara Walters. Fischman denies the specific wording but admits she was upset.

strategic

Mr. Baker•Daniel Petrocelli

Baker slips in a leading question after Kelly finishes — 'The entire walkway was wet when you were there on June 14th?' — Petrocelli objects and moves to strike, then Baker immediately says no further questions.

adversarial

Daniel Petrocelli•Philip Kramer

Standard end-of-deposition stipulation about transcript review, signing deadline, and handling of changes, with Kramer carving out that he won't notify all counsel of changes unless listed on the manuscript.

procedural

Light Moments (2)

Cora Fischman

Fischman asks 'What does "impeach" mean? You mean I go to jail?' after Petrocelli warns her that transcript changes could be used to impeach her.

Robert Baker

Baker sarcastically remarks 'You going to give her admonitions after three days?' when Petrocelli issues a late warning about transcript changes.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Cora Fischman

prior inconsistent statement / bias

Kelly implies Fischman made a threatening statement to Ron Hardy ('You don't know who you're messing with') after Hardy disparaged her to Barbara Walters, suggesting her motivations and conduct are questionable. Fischman denies the specific language.

Objections

1 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

Cora Fischman Deposition • Day 3 • 4 examinations • 2,459 utterances

Civil Case Deposition

1996