Redirect examination of Brian Kato Kaelin (part 2)

📄 Redirect examination of Brian Kato Kaelin (part 2) — Thursday, March 23, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\23\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-BRIAN-.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 44 of 167

◀ Sidebar: derogatory language Sidebar: 1989 testimony ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, March 23, 1995 • Utterances: 93

Marcia Clark impeaches Kato Kaelin with prior inconsistent statements, focusing on his failure to mention the Christmas Eve 1993 argument during his June 1994 grand jury testimony and his June 14th interview with Shapiro. Kaelin explains he was overwhelmed and trying to remember everything, not deliberately withholding information. The proceeding ends abruptly when Clark asks about a 1989 incident in which 'Michelle' allegedly let Simpson into a room to beat Nicole, triggering a defense request to approach the bench.

# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

# 2 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. PROCEED. MADAM COURT REPORTER, DO YOU NEED TO CHANGE PAPER?

# 3 THE COURT REPORTER:

NO, YOUR HONOR.

# 4 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 5 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DURING THE CHRISTMAS OF '93 ARGUMENT, DO YOU RECALL DISCUSSING THAT MATTER WITH MR. SHAPIRO?

# 6 A:

I PROBABLY DID.

# 7 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 8 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: NOW, WHEN MR. SHAPIRO ON JUNE 14TH INTERVIEWED YOU, DO YOU RECALL HIM ASKING YOU THE FOLLOWING QUESTION? "DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE LIVING AT THE RESIDENCE WITH NICOLE AND O.J., DID YOU EVER SEE THEM GET INTO ANY TYPE OF FIGHT?" DO YOU RECALL THAT QUESTION?

# 9 A:

YES.

# 10 Q:

AND THEN YOU ASKED: "WHEN I WAS LIVING ON GRETNA GREEN?" DO YOU RECALL THAT?

# 11 A:

YES.

# 12 Q:

AND THAT WAS THE QUESTION YOU WERE ASKING HIM.

# 13 A:

OKAY.

# 14 Q:

DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

# 15 A:

YES.

# 16 Q:

AND THEN HE ANSWERED, "YES."

# 17 A:

YES.

# 18 Q:

AND THEN YOU WENT INTO -- YOU IMMEDIATELY RESPONDED -- TELL ME IF YOU RECALL RESPONDING AS FOLLOWS.

# 19 A:

OKAY.

# 20 Q:

"I NEVER SAW THEM FIGHTING. THERE WAS -- THE ONLY ONE OCCASION WAS WHEN I DROVE IN. I DIDN'T SEE THE FIGHT, BUT THERE WAS AN ARGUMENT GOING ON. "AND I GOT THERE AND SAID, 'YOU GUYS DON'T -- DON'T BE FIGHTING AND SHOUTING LIKE THAT,' AND I BROUGHT O.J. TO MY GUEST HOUSE IN BACK; AND WHEN HE WAS IN THE GUEST HOUSE IN BACK, BEFORE I KNEW, THERE WAS POLICE THERE. SO OBVIOUSLY SOMEONE HAD MADE A CALL." DO YOU RECALL TELLING THEM ALL THAT?

# 21 A:

YES.

# 22 Q:

AND WHEN I ASKED YOU BEFORE THE GRAND JURY, "DID YOU EVER OBSERVE THEM TO ARGUE OR FIGHT," YOUR ANSWER WAS: "I SAW THEM CLOSE AND I SAW MAYBE AN ARGUMENT."

# 23 A:

UH-HUH.

# 24 Q:

AND I ASKED: "AND WHERE WAS THAT?" YOU SAID: "ON GRETNA GREEN." AND WHEN I ASKED YOU, "DO YOU RECALL THE NATURE OF THE ARGUMENT OR JUST THAT IT WAS ONE," DO YOU RECALL GIVING THE RESPONSE, "THAT IT WAS ONE"? AND THEN I ASKED: "WAS THAT THE ONLY TIME YOU EVER SAW AN ARGUMENT BETWEEN THEM," AND YOU ANSWERED, "YES." DO YOU RECALL THAT?

# 25 A:

YES.

# 26 Q:

SO YOU DIDN'T TELL ME ABOUT A FIGHT ON CHRISTMAS EVE, DID YOU?

# 27 A:

NO. I -- I'LL TELL YOU WHAT --

# 28 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. THAT'S ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 29 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

# 30 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU TELL ME ABOUT A FIGHT ON CHRISTMAS EVE WHEN I ASKED YOU ABOUT THE ARGUMENT -- ANY ARGUE -- WHETHER YOU OBSERVED THEM TO ARGUE OR FIGHT?

# 31 THE COURT:

MISS CLARK, I'M SORRY. HOLD ON, MR. KAELIN. I THINK I NEED TO ASK YOU TO BE A LITTLE MORE PRECISE IN THE LANGUAGE BECAUSE WE'RE DIFFERENTIATING HERE BETWEEN ARGUMENTS AND PHYSICAL CONFRONTATIONS, AREN'T WE?

# 32 MS. CLARK:

I WAS ASKING THE QUESTION IN GENERIC, WHICH I THINK PROBABLY MR. SHAPIRO WAS AS WELL JUST TO SEE WHAT --

# 33 THE COURT:

WELL, I MEAN, THEN IT'S A VAGUE QUESTION BECAUSE THERE ARE VERBAL FIGHTS AND THERE ARE PHYSICAL FIGHTS.

# 34 MS. CLARK:

BUT THE POINT IS, THE DIFFERENCE IN THE RESPONSE, TWO VAGUE QUESTIONS.

# 35 THE COURT:

WELL, I'M JUST ASKING YOU TO BE A LITTLE MORE PRECISE.

# 36 MS. CLARK:

OKAY.

# 37 THE COURT:

THANK YOU.

# 38 MS. CLARK:

I'M JUST QUOTING MY OWN QUESTION. YOU WEREN'T THERE TO RULE ON IT BEFORE THE GRAND JURY. I WISH YOU HAD BEEN.

KEY QUOTE

# 39 THE COURT:

BY THE WAY, WHAT WAS THE DATE OF THE GRAND JURY PROCEEDING?

# 40 MS. CLARK:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. LET ME --

# 41 THE COURT:

SO THE JURY CAN KNOW WHAT CAME FIRST.

# 42 MS. CLARK:

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN I BELIEVE -- I THINK IT WAS JUNE 20. I'M NOT SURE.

# 43 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, DO YOU HAVE MUCH MORE?

# 44 MS. CLARK:

YES, YOUR HONOR.

# 45 THE COURT:

WHAT'S YOUR TIME ESTIMATE AT THIS POINT?

# 46 MS. CLARK:

I'VE GOT --

# 47 THE COURT:

WHAT'S YOUR TIME ESTIMATE AT THIS POINT?

# 48 MS. CLARK:

ABOUT HALF AN HOUR.

# 49 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. LET'S FINISH.

# 50 MS. CLARK:

OKAY.

# 51 THE COURT:

MADAM REPORTER, ARE YOU OKAY.

# 52 THE COURT REPORTER:

YES.

# 53 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHEN I ASKED YOU BEFORE THE GRAND JURY IN JUNE OF 1994, THAT WOULD BE JUNE 20 OF 1994, AFTER YOUR JUNE 14TH INTERVIEW WITH MR. SHAPIRO, WHEN I ASKED YOU, "DID YOU EVER OBSERVE THEM TO ARGUE OR FIGHT," DID YOU TELL ME ABOUT THE CHRISTMAS EVE ARGUMENT?

# 54 A:

NO, I DID NOT. CAN I SAY SOMETHING?

# 55 Q:

YOU CAN.

# 56 A:

UMM, WHEN THIS WAS GOING ON WITH THE GRAND JURY AND EVERYTHING WAS HAPPENING, IT WAS -- IT WAS -- THERE WOULD BE NOTHING I WOULD HIDE FROM YOU. MY MIND WAS -- WITH EVERYTHING THAT -- IF I REMEMBERED SOMETHING, I WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU ABOUT A 911 CALL AND ALL THAT SORT OF THING. BUT IT WASN'T SOMETHING I WASN'T TRYING TO NOT TELL YOU BECAUSE I KNOW IF IT'S A 911 CALL, THAT THERE WOULD BE A REPORT. SO I -- THERE'S NOTHING I -- I TRIED TO HIDE FROM -- FROM YOU ABOUT ANY OF THE FIGHTS. THERE WAS SO MUCH THAT I HAD TO REMEMBER. I HAD SO MUCH TIME. I WAS IN FRONT OF ALL THESE PEOPLE. SO WHEN IT -- THEN I'D REMEMBER MORE AND THAT'S WHEN WE HAD THIS MEETING AND I'D TELL YOU STUFF THAT I REMEMBERED, SOMETHING ELSE.

# 57 Q:

SO ARE YOU TELLING US NOW THAT YOU FELT INTIMIDATED BY THE GRAND JURY, MR. KAELIN?

# 58 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. LEADING.

# 59 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.

# 60 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I DON'T KNOW IF "INTIMIDATED" IS WORD, BUT I TRIED TO REMEMBER EVERYTHING THAT I COULD.

# 61 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING ME, MR. KAELIN, THAT YOU HAD THOUGHT THAT BEING IN FRONT OF THE GRAND JURY WOULD BE INTIMIDATING, BUT IT TURNED OUT TO BE JUST A BUNCH OF OLD GUYS IN FISHING CAPS?

# 62 A:

YES. I WAS -- I -- YES.

# 63 Q:

NOT REAL INTIMIDATING.

# 64 A:

NO. NO. I -- BUT I WAS LOOKING AT YOU. I WAS JUST IN A ROOM THAT -- I'VE NEVER BEEN TO COURT.

# 65 Q:

UH-HUH. OKAY. BUT WHEN MR. SHAPIRO ASKED YOU THE QUESTION AS TO WHETHER YOU SAW NICOLE AND O.J. -- "DID YOU EVER SEE THEM GET INTO ANY TYPE OF FIGHT," YOU TOLD HIM ABOUT THE INCIDENT ON GRETNA GREEN WHERE THE 911 CALL WAS PLACED.

# 66 A:

UH-HUH. YES.

# 67 Q:

DIDN'T YOU? YOU TOLD HIM ABOUT THE POLICE ARRIVING, DIDN'T YOU?

# 68 A:

YES.

# 69 Q:

YOU TOLD HIM ABOUT THE FIGHT ON CHRISTMAS EVE, DIDN'T YOU?

# 70 A:

UH, YES.

# 71 MR. SHAPIRO:

I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE CHARACTERIZATION OF "FIGHT" BASED ON YOUR HONOR'S RULING.

# 72 MS. CLARK:

ARGUMENT.

# 73 THE COURT:

WELL, I THINK --

# 74 MS. CLARK:

ARGUMENT. I'M SORRY.

# 75 THE COURT:

THE JURY KNOWS THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE TWO, IF.

# 76 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: NOW, DO YOU ALSO RECALL DISCUSSING WITH MR. SHAPIRO DURING THAT JUNE 14TH INTERVIEW HOW NICOLE FELT ABOUT YOU MOVING OUT TO LIVE AT ROCKINGHAM INSTEAD OF STAYING WITH HER ON BUNDY?

# 77 A:

UPSET WITH ME.

# 78 Q:

DO YOU RECALL TELLING HIM ABOUT THAT?

# 79 A:

YES. THAT O. --

# 80 Q:

GO AHEAD.

# 81 A:

O.J. WAS MANIPULATING ME.

KEY QUOTE

# 82 MS. CLARK:

JUNE 20TH WAS THE TESTIMONY BEFORE THE GRAND JURY, YOUR HONOR.

# 83 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 84 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 85 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND DO YOU RECALL THAT THERE WAS AN AGREEMENT AT ONE POINT THAT MICHELLE WAS TO LEAVE THE HOUSE WHENEVER NICOLE WAS AROUND?

# 86 A:

YES.

# 87 Q:

DO YOU RECALL THAT THERE WAS AN ARGUMENT THAT AFTER THAT SLAP THAT YOU REFERRED TO, MICHELLE MADE A DEROGATORY REMARK ABOUT THE CHILDREN, JUSTIN AND SIDNEY?

# 88 A:

YES.

# 89 Q:

AND MICHELLE DID NOT LEAVE THE RESIDENCE THAT DAY, DID SHE?

# 90 A:

NO.

# 91 Q:

YOU ALSO RECALL THAT MICHELLE WAS THE ONE WHO OPENED THE DOOR TO LET THE DEFENDANT INTO THE ROOM TO BEAT NICOLE IN 1989?

KEY QUOTE

# 92 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. MAY WE APPROACH?

# 93 THE COURT:

YES.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Brian 'Kato' Kaelin

THERE WAS SO MUCH THAT I HAD TO REMEMBER. I HAD SO MUCH TIME. I WAS IN FRONT OF ALL THESE PEOPLE. SO WHEN IT -- THEN I'D REMEMBER MORE AND THAT'S WHEN WE HAD THIS MEETING AND I'D TELL YOU STUFF THAT I REMEMBERED, SOMETHING ELSE.

Kaelin's explanation for why his recollections expanded over time — key to Clark's impeachment theory that he was shading his testimony

Brian 'Kato' Kaelin

I WAS -- I -- YES... YES. I WAS LOOKING AT YOU. I WAS JUST IN A ROOM THAT -- I'VE NEVER BEEN TO COURT.

Kaelin confirms he found the grand jury non-intimidating ('a bunch of old guys in fishing caps'), undermining his excuse for incomplete testimony

Marcia Clark

I'M JUST QUOTING MY OWN QUESTION. YOU WEREN'T THERE TO RULE ON IT BEFORE THE GRAND JURY. I WISH YOU HAD BEEN.

Rare moment of Clark pushing back sharply at Judge Ito when he critiques her question phrasing

Brian 'Kato' Kaelin

O.J. WAS MANIPULATING ME.

Unprompted characterization of Simpson's role in Kaelin moving to Rockingham instead of staying with Nicole — damaging to the defense

Marcia Clark

YOU ALSO RECALL THAT MICHELLE WAS THE ONE WHO OPENED THE DOOR TO LET THE DEFENDANT INTO THE ROOM TO BEAT NICOLE IN 1989?

Explosive question referencing a specific 1989 domestic violence incident, immediately triggering a defense sidebar request

Evidence (4)

Informal

June 14, 1994 interview of Kaelin conducted by Robert Shapiro

quoted at length to establish prior inconsistent statements

Informal

Kaelin's grand jury testimony, June 20, 1994

quoted to impeach — Kaelin did not mention Christmas Eve argument

Informal

911 call from Gretna Green incident involving OJ and Nicole

referenced by Kaelin as something he would not have hidden

Informal

1989 domestic violence incident involving Simpson, Nicole, and 'Michelle'

raised in final question, triggering immediate sidebar

Notable Exchanges (3)

Marcia Clark•Lance A. Ito

Ito interrupts to demand Clark distinguish between verbal and physical fights; Clark pushes back by noting he wasn't present at the grand jury to make such rulings, and says 'I wish you had been.'

testy

Marcia Clark•Brian 'Kato' Kaelin

Clark elicits confirmation that Kaelin told the grand jury the Gretna Green encounter was the only fight he witnessed — he never mentioned Christmas Eve — while Kaelin tries to explain his memory was overwhelmed.

strategic

Marcia Clark•Robert Shapiro

Shapiro objects to Clark's use of the word 'fight' for Christmas Eve; Clark says 'argument' and the judge notes the jury knows the distinction, leaving the objection effectively unresolved.

procedural

Light Moments (1)

Brian 'Kato' Kaelin

Kaelin confirms he told Clark the grand jury was going to be intimidating but turned out to be 'just a bunch of old guys in fishing caps' — not particularly frightening

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Brian 'Kato' Kaelin

prior inconsistent statement

Clark systematically establishes that Kaelin described only the Gretna Green incident (not Christmas Eve) in both his June 14 Shapiro interview and June 20 grand jury testimony, then later added the Christmas Eve argument — suggesting coached or evolving testimony

⚔ Brian 'Kato' Kaelin

contradiction of claimed intimidation

Kaelin claims memory failure due to the stress of the grand jury, but Clark gets him to confirm he found it non-intimidating ('old guys in fishing caps'), undermining that excuse

Witness Demeanor

Hesitant and halting when asked to confirm he did not mention Christmas Eve to the grand jury

Volunteers an unprompted explanation without being asked, suggesting defensiveness

Unprompted blurts 'O.J. WAS MANIPULATING ME' when recounting Nicole's upset over his move to Rockingham

Objections

4 objections (1 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 5401 • 93 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103