Cross-examination of Brian Kato Kaelin (part 2)

📄 Cross-examination of Brian Kato Kaelin (part 2) — Thursday, March 23, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\23\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-BRIAN-KAT.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 44 of 167

◀ Sidebar: defense notes Cross-examination of Brian Kato Kaelin (part 3) ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Robert Shapiro
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, March 23, 1995 • Utterances: 111

Robert Shapiro continued his cross-examination of Kato Kaelin, focusing on the OJ/Nicole relationship and the circumstances under which Kato came to live at Rockingham. The examination ended on a significant note when Kaelin described witnessing a screaming argument at Nicole's Gretna Green house where Nicole called the police, with OJ's car parked out front.

# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

# 2 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. SHAPIRO, YOU MAY CONTINUE.

# 3 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: YES. YOU NEED A MINUTE HERE FOR SOME WATER?

# 4 A:

A LITTLE WATER.

# 5 Q:

ARE YOU ALL RIGHT? DO YOU WANT TO JUST TAKE A DRINK HERE?

# 6 A:

BETTER.

# 7 Q:

OKAY. NOW, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT DISCUSSIONS THAT YOU WERE HAVING WITH O.J. ABOUT HIS DISCUSSIONS WITH NICOLE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS SOME SLIGHT DISCOMFORT ON THE PART OF O.J. WITH YOU MOVING INTO A CONDOMINIUM SETTING.

# 8 A:

YES.

# 9 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.

# 10 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 11 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND AT THAT POINT IN TIME WAS THERE ANYTHING VOICED BY O.J. THAT HE HAD ANY CONCERN FOR YOU BEING INVOLVED WITH NICOLE SEXUALLY?

# 12 A:

NO.

# 13 Q:

THIS WAS A TIME WHEN NICOLE WAS PURSUING O.J. TO GET BACK TOGETHER, WASN'T IT?

# 14 A:

YES.

# 15 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. THAT ASSUMES FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE.

# 16 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 17 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND DURING THIS --

# 18 THE COURT:

THE JURY IS TO DISREGARD.

# 19 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE RELATIONSHIP OF O.J. AND NICOLE AT THIS POINT IN TIME?

# 20 A:

YES.

# 21 Q:

HAD THEY BEEN DATING?

# 22 A:

YES.

# 23 Q:

AND WAS THIS SOMETHING THAT NICOLE HAD DISCUSSED WITH YOU?

# 24 A:

YES.

# 25 Q:

AND NICOLE TOLD YOU THAT SHE WAS TRYING --

# 26 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, OBJECTION.

# 27 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 28 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID NICOLE INDICATE TO YOU THAT SHE WAS TRYING TO WORK THINGS OUT AND GET BACK TOGETHER WITH O.J.?

# 29 THE COURT:

EXCUSE ME. HEARSAY. THE OBJECTION WILL BE SUSTAINED. THE JURY IS ADMONISHED NOT TO ASSUME ANYTHING FROM THE IMPLICATION OF THE QUESTION.

# 30 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU, BASED ON YOUR OBSERVATIONS, HAVE ANY IMPRESSION AS TO WHAT WAS GOING ON BETWEEN O.J. AND NICOLE?

# 31 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.

# 32 THE COURT:

CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

# 33 MS. CLARK:

SPECULATION.

# 34 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 35 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: COULD YOU TELL US WHAT -- HOW THEY APPEARED WHEN THEY WERE TOGETHER IN JANUARY, NICOLE AND O.J.?

# 36 A:

TO BE DATING OFF AND ON, SEEING EACH OTHER SOMETIMES, BUT NOT -- IT WASN'T A COMMITMENT.

# 37 Q:

AND DID YOU --

# 38 A:

IN JANUARY OF --

# 39 Q:

'94.

# 40 A:

THEY WERE DATING.

# 41 Q:

AND WHEN DID THEY START DATING?

# 42 A:

START DATING? I DON'T KNOW THE DATES. IT WAS OFF AND ON. I DON'T KNOW.

# 43 Q:

WAS IT PRIOR TO JANUARY OF '94?

# 44 A:

I BELIEVE SO.

# 45 Q:

AND WERE YOU EVER PRESENT WHEN NICOLE WOULD PICK UP THE PHONE AND CALL O.J.?

# 46 A:

SOMETIMES.

# 47 MS. CLARK:

WELL, OBJECTION. THAT WOULD CALL FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR. HEARSAY.

# 48 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 49 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: WERE YOU EVER PRESENT WHEN NICOLE WOULD COME OVER AND VISIT O.J. AT HIS ROCKINGHAM HOUSE?

# 50 A:

WHEN I WAS THERE?

# 51 Q:

YES.

# 52 A:

YES.

# 53 Q:

AND HOW DID THEY SEEM TO GET ALONG?

# 54 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.

# 55 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 56 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

OKAY. GOOD.

# 57 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: NOW, AT THE TIME THAT YOU WERE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION WITH O.J., DID O.J. SAY HE WOULD FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE IF YOU WERE NOT LIVING UNDER THE SAME ROOF AS NICOLE AND HER KIDS?

# 58 A:

THERE WERE WORDS, UMM, MORE COMFORTABLE, IF IT WAS RIGHT AND IT WAS -- I WAS IN THE MIDDLE. I JUST -- YOU KNOW, I WAS SAYING, YOU KNOW, IF IT IS NOT RIGHT, I WILL GO ON, BUT IT WAS OFF AND ON. HE THOUGHT IT WASN'T PROBABLY RIGHT FOR THE MAN TO BE THERE, BUT I DON'T -- I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS SEXUAL. I DIDN'T KNOW. I MEAN, I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T KNOW.

# 59 Q:

HE WASN'T ANGRY AT ALL TOWARDS YOU, WAS HE?

# 60 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.

# 61 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 62 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

HE WASN'T ANGRY AT ME, NO.

KEY QUOTE

# 63 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE APPEAR TO BE JEALOUS OF YOU AT THAT POINT IN TIME?

# 64 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, SPECULATION.

# 65 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 66 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

NO.

# 67 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE DO ANYTHING BUT TO DEMONSTRATE THE FACT THAT HE WAS SOMEWHAT UNCOMFORTABLE JUST IN THAT GENERAL LIVING ARRANGEMENT IN THE SAME ROOF AND THAT HE WOULD OFFER TO YOU, SINCE YOU WOULD HAVE NO PLACE TO STAY, HIS GUEST HOUSE?

# 68 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE, HEARSAY, SPECULATION.

# 69 THE COURT:

VAGUE AND COMPOUND.

# 70 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID O.J. OFFER TO YOU -- WELL, WAS THERE A DISCUSSION AS TO WHERE YOU WOULD STAY AND WHERE YOU WOULD BE LIVING?

# 71 A:

YES.

# 72 Q:

AND DID O.J. TELL YOU THAT HE HAD A GUEST HOUSE THAT NOBODY WAS USING?

# 73 A:

YES.

# 74 Q:

AND DID HE TELL YOU THAT YOU WERE WELCOME TO USE THAT UNTIL YOU COULD FIND YOUR OWN PLACE?

# 75 A:

YES.

# 76 Q:

AND YOU HAD NO FORMAL ARRANGEMENT WITH O.J. WHEN YOU MOVED INTO ROCKINGHAM, DID YOU?

# 77 A:

NO.

# 78 Q:

AND YOU HAD NO FORMAL AGREEMENT AS TO HOW LONG YOU WOULD STAY THERE?

# 79 A:

NO.

# 80 Q:

BUT YOU UNDERSTOOD IT WAS TEMPORARY AND THAT WAS GOING TO BE JUST A PLACE WHERE YOU COULD STAY UNTIL YOU FOUND YOUR OWN PLACE?

# 81 A:

WHEN HE WAS GOING TO -- RIGHT. HE WOULD TELL ME WHEN TO GO.

KEY QUOTE

# 82 Q:

AND YOU WOULD KNOW WHEN IT WAS TIME TO GO?

# 83 A:

YES.

# 84 Q:

NOW, DURING THIS POINT IN TIME DID THERE EVER BECOME A SITUATION THAT YOU WERE AWARE OF INVOLVING NICOLE AND A MAID NAMED MICHELLE?

# 85 A:

YES.

# 86 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, THIS IS IRRELEVANT.

# 87 THE COURT:

EXCEEDS THE SCOPE.

# 88 MR. SHAPIRO:

MAY I BE HEARD, YOUR HONOR?

# 89 THE COURT:

YES. WITH THE REPORTER, PLEASE.

# 90 MR. SHAPIRO:

MAYBE WE CAN HOLD THIS UNTIL THE RECESS AND I WILL COME BACK TO THIS, WITH THE COURT'S PERMISSION.

# 91 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 92 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID NICOLE VISIT O.J. WHILE YOU WERE LIVING AT ROCKINGHAM?

# 93 A:

YES.

# 94 Q:

DID YOU EVER SEE O.J. IN ANY WAY BE PHYSICAL TOWARDS NICOLE DURING THE ENTIRE TIME YOU KNEW NICOLE SIMPSON?

# 95 A:

NO.

# 96 Q:

YOU DID, HOWEVER, SEE HIM RAISE HIS VOICE ON OCCASION, DID YOU NOT?

# 97 A:

YES.

# 98 Q:

DID YOU EVER SEE HER RAISE HER VOICE?

# 99 A:

YES.

# 100 Q:

DID YOU EVER SEE THEM RAISE THEIR VOICES TOGETHER AT EACH OTHER?

# 101 A:

YES.

# 102 Q:

WOULD YOU TELL US WHEN -- IS THERE ANY PARTICULAR INCIDENT THAT STANDS OUT IN YOUR MIND IN THAT REGARD?

# 103 A:

AT THE -- AT THE ROCKINGHAM OR --

# 104 Q:

NOW AT ANY POINT IN TIME WHILE YOU KNEW THEM.

# 105 A:

YEAH, AT GRETNA GREEN.

# 106 Q:

TELL THE JURY ABOUT THAT.

# 107 A:

THERE WAS AN INCIDENT WHERE NICOLE WAS ON THE PHONE WITH THE POLICE, I GUESS IT WAS THE POLICE, AND I CAME IN AND THEY WERE -- IT WAS AN ARGUMENT GOING ON AND I -- I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS ABOUT. I KNOW HIS CAR WAS PARKED IN FRONT AND SO I JUST WAITED BY THE GUEST HOUSE ON GRETNA GREEN AND THE DOORS -- THE FRENCH DOORS AT THE BACK WERE OPEN AND HE WAS SCREAMING AT NICOLE AND -- AND SHE WAS IN THE KITCHEN AREA AND THE POLICE CAME.

KEY QUOTE

# 108 Q:

DID YOU SEE WHAT HE WAS SCREAMING ABOUT?

# 109 A:

I HEARD CERTAIN THINGS THAT WERE BEING SCREAMED ABOUT, YES.

# 110 Q:

AND WHAT WAS HER DEMEANOR LIKE?

# 111 A:

SHE WAS IN THE KITCHEN AND SHE WAS TALKING ON THE PHONE TO THE POLICE.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (3)

Kato Kaelin

AT GRETNA GREEN. THERE WAS AN INCIDENT WHERE NICOLE WAS ON THE PHONE WITH THE POLICE, I GUESS IT WAS THE POLICE, AND I CAME IN AND THEY WERE -- IT WAS AN ARGUMENT GOING ON AND I -- I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS ABOUT. I KNOW HIS CAR WAS PARKED IN FRONT AND SO I JUST WAITED BY THE GUEST HOUSE ON GRETNA GREEN AND THE DOORS -- THE FRENCH DOORS AT THE BACK WERE OPEN AND HE WAS SCREAMING AT NICOLE AND -- AND SHE WAS IN THE KITCHEN AREA AND THE POLICE CAME.

Kaelin eyewitness account of a domestic incident at Nicole's Gretna Green house, connecting OJ to a screaming fight that drew police — directly relevant to domestic violence pattern.

Kato Kaelin

WHEN HE WAS GOING TO -- RIGHT. HE WOULD TELL ME WHEN TO GO.

Establishes Kato's precarious, informal living arrangement at Rockingham — entirely at OJ's discretion, suggesting potential bias as a dependent guest.

Kato Kaelin

HE WASN'T ANGRY AT ME, NO.

Shapiro draws out that OJ bore no jealousy or hostility toward Kato, undercutting any theory of romantic rivalry and reinforcing OJ's generosity narrative.

Notable Exchanges (4)

Robert Shapiro•Marcia Clark•Judge Ito

Shapiro repeatedly attempted to elicit Kato's impressions of OJ and Nicole's relationship status — whether Nicole was pursuing OJ, whether they were dating, whether OJ was jealous — and Clark objected almost every time. Ito split, overruling speculation objections about OJ's demeanor but sustaining hearsay objections about Nicole's stated intentions.

strategic

Robert Shapiro•Kato Kaelin

Shapiro established the benign, informal nature of Kato's move to Rockingham: no contract, no rent, OJ offering the guest house as a courtesy so Kato would have somewhere to stay. Sets up OJ as generous rather than controlling.

strategic

Robert Shapiro•Kato Kaelin

Shapiro pivoted to domestic violence territory, asking if Kato ever saw OJ be physical with Nicole (answer: no), then walking Kato through mutual arguments, culminating in the Gretna Green incident where OJ screamed at Nicole while she called police.

revealing

Robert Shapiro•Judge Ito

Shapiro asked about a 'maid named Michelle' incident involving Nicole, Clark objected as irrelevant, Ito ruled it exceeded scope. Shapiro requested to defer the topic until recess to argue it outside the jury's hearing.

procedural

Light Moments (1)

Robert Shapiro

Shapiro opened by offering Kaelin water and checking if he was all right before resuming questioning.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ OJ Simpson

prior bad acts / eyewitness testimony

Clark allowed Shapiro to walk into Gretna Green domestic incident territory — Kato's account of OJ screaming at Nicole while she called police cuts against the defense's portrayal of OJ as a non-violent, reformed ex-spouse.

⚔ Kato Kaelin

bias / dependency

Shapiro's own questions established that Kato lived rent-free at OJ's guest house with no formal agreement, entirely at OJ's pleasure — an implicit bias argument that could be turned against the witness by either side.

Witness Demeanor

Needed water at the start of session

Rambling, hesitant answer when asked about OJ's discomfort with the living arrangement: 'THERE WERE WORDS, UMM, MORE COMFORTABLE, IF IT WAS RIGHT AND IT WAS -- I WAS IN THE MIDDLE'

Unclear on dates: 'I DON'T KNOW THE DATES. IT WAS OFF AND ON. I DON'T KNOW.'

Objections

11 objections (6 sustained, 5 overruled)

Proceeding 5410 • 111 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103