Direct examination of Kato Kaelin (afternoon, part 4)

📄 Direct examination of Kato Kaelin (afternoon, part 4) — Wednesday, March 22, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\22\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-KATO-KAE.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 43 of 167

◀ Sidebar: prior inconsistent statement Redirect examination of Kato Kaelin ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, March 22, 1995 • Utterances: 385

Marcia Clark continues her direct examination of Kato Kaelin, focusing on the hours immediately after the murders — specifically the multiple phone calls Kaelin received from OJ Simpson, attorney Howard Weitzman, and OJ's secretary Cathy Randa while Kaelin was at friend Grant Cramer's house. Clark also establishes that Kaelin returned to Rockingham after learning OJ had been arrested for two murders, where he had a conversation with Simpson about the McDonald's run and the thumping noise, and that Kaelin subsequently met with Robert Shapiro for an interview lasting 90 minutes to two hours.

# 1 THE COURT:

THANK YOU, COUNSEL.

# 2 MS. CLARK:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 3 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS YOUR FRAME OF MIND WHEN YOU SPOKE TO GRANT CRAMER?

# 4 MR. SHAPIRO:

IRRELEVANT. OBJECTION.

# 5 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. OVERRULED.

# 6 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I WAS EXHAUSTED.

# 7 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER YOU WERE CALM OR AGITATED?

# 8 A:

I WAS EXHAUSTED, YET I STILL HAD LIKE ENERGY, THAT I WAS ALL EXCITED.

# 9 Q:

YOU WERE ALL EXCITED?

# 10 A:

I WAS EXHAUSTED, BUT I STILL HAD THE -- YOU KNOW, THERE WAS SO MUCH GOING ON. I MEAN, I WAS TIRED, BUT I KNEW I COULDN'T SLEEP.

# 11 Q:

UH-HUH. DID YOU GET A PHONE CALL WHEN YOU WERE AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE?

# 12 A:

AT SOME POINT, YES.

# 13 Q:

FROM WHO?

# 14 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. HEARSAY.

# 15 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. JUST FROM WHO.

# 16 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

FROM AN ATTORNEY.

# 17 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU HAVE A LAWYER AT THAT TIME?

# 18 A:

NO.

# 19 Q:

WHAT WAS HIS NAME?

# 20 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION.

# 21 THE COURT:

GROUNDS?

# 22 MR. SHAPIRO:

IT'S HEARSAY.

# 23 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 24 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

IT WAS HOWARD WEITZMAN.

# 25 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: HE INTRODUCED HIMSELF TO YOU, DID HE?

# 26 A:

ON THE PHONE, YES.

# 27 Q:

OKAY. AND DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?

# 28 A:

YES.

# 29 Q:

WHO ELSE DID YOU TALK TO?

# 30 A:

O.J.

# 31 Q:

ON THE TELEPHONE?

# 32 A:

YES.

# 33 Q:

YOU TALKED TO HIM AFTER YOU SPOKE TO MR. WEITZMAN?

# 34 A:

I THINK THEY BOTH WERE ON.

# 35 Q:

AT THE SAME TIME?

# 36 A:

YES.

# 37 Q:

SO WHEN YOU WERE ON THE PHONE, WERE YOU SPEAKING -- YOU WERE SPEAKING TO THE DEFENDANT AND HIS LAWYER, MR. WEITZMAN, AT THE SAME TIME?

# 38 A:

WELL, I WAS TALKING TO WEITZMAN, BUT THEN I THOUGHT THAT WAS -- THAT O.J. CAME ON. SO I THOUGHT THEY WERE -- THEY WERE ALL ON. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW. I DIDN'T SEE, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS LIKE A THREE-WAY CALL.

# 39 Q:

OKAY. AND WHO ELSE DID YOU TALK TO?

# 40 A:

I THINK THAT WAS IT. YOU MEAN ON THE PHONE?

# 41 Q:

ON THE PHONE.

# 42 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER RIGHT NOW.

# 43 Q:

DURING THE TIME THAT YOU LIVED AT ROCKINGHAM, WERE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH ANYONE WHO WORKED FOR THE DEFENDANT?

# 44 A:

YES.

# 45 Q:

WHO WORKED FOR THE DEFENDANT?

# 46 A:

UH, SKIP TAFT.

# 47 Q:

WHO ELSE? WHO IS SKIP TAFT?

# 48 A:

HE'S O.J.'S ATTORNEY FOR BUSINESS I BELIEVE.

# 49 Q:

OKAY. WHO ELSE?

# 50 A:

UMM, ROBERT KARDASHIAN.

# 51 Q:

AND WHAT DID HE DO FOR THE DEFENDANT?

# 52 A:

I DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE JOBS. I THINK THEY'RE FRIENDS. I DON'T KNOW BUSINESS WISE, BUT I KNOW THEY'RE FRIENDS.

# 53 Q:

OKAY. WHO ELSE?

# 54 A:

ON THE PHONE OR --

# 55 Q:

NO, NO.

# 56 A:

-- OR WHO WERE THEIR FRIENDS?

# 57 Q:

WHO WORKED FOR THE DEFENDANT? WHEN YOU LIVED ON ROCKINGHAM --

# 58 A:

CATHY RANDA.

# 59 Q:

DID YOU TALK TO HER ON THE TELEPHONE THAT DAY?

# 60 A:

I THINK I MIGHT HAVE.

# 61 Q:

WAS THAT DURING THAT SAME PHONE CALL?

# 62 A:

I THINK SO.

# 63 Q:

DO YOU RECALL WHO WAS -- WHO IT WAS THAT INITIALLY PLACED THE CALL TO YOU AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE?

# 64 A:

IT COULD HAVE BEEN CATHY PLUGGING ME INTO HOWARD WEITZMAN OR HOWARD WEITZ -- I DON'T REMEMBER. I KNOW I TALKED TO HIM THOUGH.

# 65 Q:

OKAY. SO IN THAT PHONE CALL AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE, YOU SPOKE TO WHO?

# 66 A:

TO HOWARD WEITZMAN AND O.J. AND I THINK CATHY RANDA ALSO.

# 67 Q:

OKAY. AND WHO IS CATHY RANDA?

# 68 A:

UMM, O.J.'S SECRETARY.

# 69 Q:

HOW LONG DID YOU TALK TO THEM THAT FIRST TIME?

# 70 A:

WASN'T VERY LONG. I'D SAY LIKE FIVE MINUTES.

# 71 Q:

AND WHAT -- WHAT DID THEY SAY?

# 72 A:

THEY SAID TO TELL THE TRUTH.

KEY QUOTE

# 73 Q:

UH-HUH. OH, REALLY. WHO TOLD YOU THAT?

# 74 A:

THEY BOTH DID.

# 75 Q:

WHO'S BOTH?

# 76 A:

HOWARD WEITZMAN AND O.J.

# 77 Q:

UH-HUH. HOW DID THEY KNOW WHERE TO CALL YOU?

# 78 A:

I DON'T KNOW.

# 79 Q:

YOU DIDN'T TELL THEM YOU WERE GOING TO GRANT'S HOUSE?

# 80 A:

I -- I THINK IT WAS ON MY -- I CALLED THE HOUSE UP ON ROCKINGHAM AND SAID I WAS AT A FRIEND'S HOUSE, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHO ANSWERED -- I CAN'T REMEMBER WHO ANSWERED THE PHONE AT THE HOUSE.

# 81 Q:

DID YOU LEAVE A PHONE NUMBER WHERE YOU COULD BE REACHED?

# 82 A:

I MUST HAVE I THINK.

# 83 Q:

WHY DID YOU CALL THE HOUSE?

# 84 A:

I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER IF I DID. I THINK I WAS JUST SEEING WHAT'S GOING ON.

# 85 Q:

AND YOU MADE THAT PHONE CALL FROM WHERE?

# 86 A:

WELL, I WAS AT THE POLICE STATION TO MAKE A PHONE CALL AND I -- I HAD MY OWN LINE. SO I CALLED IN. THAT'S WHEN I KNEW SOMETHING -- THAT IT WAS A BIG MEDIA EVENT. BUT I DON'T -- WHEN I WENT TO GRANT'S, I DON'T REMEMBER GIVING OUT MY -- THE NUMBER THERE. I JUST DON'T REMEMBER. I COULD HAVE. I DON'T KNOW.

# 87 Q:

SO YOU WERE AT THE POLICE STATION. WAS IT BEFORE OR AFTER THE INTERVIEW WITH THE POLICE THAT YOU CALLED THE DEFENDANT?

# 88 A:

I -- I -- I DIDN'T CALL.

# 89 Q:

YOU SAID YOU CALLED THE HOUSE.

# 90 A:

HOUSE -- THERE WAS PEOPLE THERE. I DON'T -- I DON'T --

# 91 Q:

WHO WERE YOU --

# 92 A:

-- KNOW. I THINK IT WAS A RELATIVE THAT PICKED UP THE PHONE.

# 93 THE COURT:

HOLD ON, HOLD ON. HOLD ON. MR. KAELIN, LET MISS CLARK FINISH ASKING THE QUESTION.

# 94 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

OKAY.

# 95 THE COURT:

MISS CLARK, LET HIM FINISH SPEAKING BEFORE YOU ASK THE NEXT QUESTION.

# 96 MS. CLARK:

YES, YOUR HONOR.

# 97 THE COURT:

THANK YOU.

# 98 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: YOU CALLED THE HOUSE BEFORE OR AFTER THE INTERVIEW?

# 99 A:

IT HAD TO BE AFTER. THE INTERVIEW WITH --

# 100 Q:

THE POLICE.

# 101 A:

THE POLICE.

# 102 Q:

AT THE WEST L.A. STATION.

# 103 A:

YES.

# 104 Q:

IT WAS AFTER?

# 105 A:

IT HAD TO BE BECAUSE I WAS THERE. I DIDN'T MAKE ANY PHONE CALLS WHEN I WAS THERE UNTIL AFTER THEY WERE THROUGH WITH ME.

# 106 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT PHONE NUMBER DID YOU CALL?

# 107 A:

MY PHONE.

# 108 Q:

YOU CALLED YOUR PHONE?

# 109 A:

YES.

# 110 Q:

BUT YOU WEREN'T HOME.

# 111 A:

NO, BUT I WAS CALLING TO SEE MY MESSAGES.

# 112 Q:

OKAY. YOU WERE CALLING TO GET YOUR MESSAGES PLAYED BACK?

# 113 A:

YES.

# 114 Q:

AND DID YOU CALL TO -- INTO THE MAIN HOUSE?

# 115 A:

NOT FROM THERE. I DON'T REMEMBER CALLING FROM GRANT'S HOUSE EITHER THOUGH, BUT I COULD HAVE. I PROBABLY DID, BUT --

# 116 Q:

OKAY. DO YOU REMEMBER CALLING THE DEFENDANT TO TELL HIM OR TO LET SOMEONE AT THE HOUSE KNOW WHERE YOU'D BE?

# 117 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. LEADING.

# 118 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 119 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I -- I PROBABLY DID, BECAUSE I'M SURE THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT ME, WHERE I WAS.

# 120 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT YOU? HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN THE DEFENDANT?

# 121 A:

UMM, IT WAS AT HIS HOUSE FOR SIX MONTHS. I MET HIM BEFORE THAT LIKE FOUR MONTHS BEFORE.

# 122 Q:

UH-HUH. YOU WENT OUT ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH TO MC DONALD'S WITH HIM; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 123 A:

YES.

# 124 Q:

HAD YOU EVER GONE OUT TO DINNER WITH HIM BEFORE?

# 125 A:

YES.

# 126 Q:

HOW MANY TIMES?

# 127 A:

MAYBE TWO OR THREE AND AT THE -- AT THE -- ALSO ATE AT THE GRETNA GREEN HOUSE. NOT OUT, BUT IN THE HOUSE.

# 128 Q:

WELL, YOU WERE STAYING AT THE GRETNA GREEN HOUSE, WEREN'T YOU?

# 129 A:

RIGHT, WHEN HE WOULD COME OVER.

# 130 Q:

OKAY. AND THE TWO OR THREE TIMES THAT YOU HAD DINNER WITH THE DEFENDANT, WAS THAT IN THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION IN THE RESIDENCE?

# 131 A:

OH, NO. OUT AT RESTAURANTS.

# 132 Q:

AND WHAT RESTAURANTS WERE THOSE?

# 133 A:

WE WENT ACTUALLY TO A SIZZLER WITH THE KIDS AND --

# 134 Q:

AND WHO ELSE? THE KIDS AND WHO ELSE?

# 135 A:

JUST MYSELF AND O.J.

# 136 Q:

AND SIDNEY AND JUSTIN?

# 137 A:

YES, AND MY DAUGHTER TIFFANY.

# 138 Q:

HOW MANY -- AND YOUR DAUGHTER TIFFANY?

# 139 A:

YES.

# 140 Q:

AND HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU GO OUT WITH THE DEFENDANT, JUST YOU AND HE?

# 141 A:

NOT OFTEN AT ALL.

# 142 Q:

HOW MANY TIMES?

# 143 A:

MAYBE ONCE IF THAT.

# 144 Q:

DURING THE SIX MONTHS THAT YOU LIVED AT ROCKINGHAM, DID YOU GO OUT WITH THE DEFENDANT ALONE TO DINNER EVER?

# 145 A:

NO.

# 146 Q:

AFTER THAT FIRST PHONE CALL IN WHICH YOU SPOKE TO THE DEFENDANT, CATHY RANDA AND THE DEFENDANT'S LAWYER, HOWARD WEITZMAN --

# 147 A:

YES.

# 148 Q:

-- DID YOU HAVE ANOTHER CONVERSATION WITH THEM?

# 149 A:

THAT SAME DAY?

# 150 Q:

YES.

# 151 A:

I -- I COULD HAVE. I MEAN, I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 152 Q:

DID YOU ALSO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH SKIP TAFT?

# 153 A:

YES.

# 154 Q:

AND WAS THAT IN THE FIRST PHONE CALL AS WELL?

# 155 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER IF IT'S THE FIRST PHONE CALL.

# 156 Q:

AND DID YOU HAVE A SECOND PHONE CALL WITH ANY OF THE PEOPLE WE'VE MENTIONED; SKIP TAFT, HOWARD WEITZMAN, CATHY RANDA OR THE DEFENDANT?

# 157 A:

I THINK I HAD ANOTHER PHONE CALL WITH HOWARD WEITZMAN.

# 158 Q:

AND WHO ELSE DID YOU TALK TO IN THAT SECOND PHONE CALL?

# 159 A:

I -- I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT DAY IT WAS, THE PHONE CALL. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN TO ROBERT SHAPIRO.

# 160 Q:

NO. NO. I'M TALKING ABOUT JUNE THE 13TH AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE.

# 161 A:

I DON'T KNOW. I TALKED TO HOWARD WEITZMAN AND TO O.J. AND CATHY RANDA. THAT PHONE CALL, I -- I DON'T REMEMBER.

# 162 Q:

OKAY. AFTER THAT PHONE CALL, DID YOU HAVE ANOTHER PHONE CALL FROM ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE ON JUNE THE 13TH?

# 163 A:

CATHY RANDA MIGHT HAVE CALLED.

# 164 Q:

AGAIN?

# 165 A:

YES.

# 166 Q:

AND WHO DID YOU SPEAK TO IN THAT SECOND PHONE CALL?

# 167 A:

IT'S POSSIBLE I SPOKE TO O.J.

# 168 Q:

AGAIN? FOR HOW LONG?

# 169 A:

PROBABLY A VERY SHORT TIME, MAYBE THREE TO FIVE MINUTES.

# 170 Q:

OKAY. AND WHO ELSE DID YOU SPEAK TO IN THAT SECOND PHONE CALL?

# 171 A:

I -- I DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS HOWARD WEITZMAN AGAIN OR NOT.

# 172 Q:

YOU SPOKE TO THE DEFENDANT AND SOMEONE ELSE?

# 173 A:

BOY, I -- I JUST CAN'T -- I CAN'T REMEMBER THAT -- THE PHONE CALL. THE ONE PHONE CALL, I'M TRYING TO -- I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER, AND I CAN'T.

# 174 Q:

OKAY. HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK TO THE DEFENDANT IN THE FIRST PHONE CALL?

# 175 A:

MAYBE TWO TO THREE MINUTES.

# 176 Q:

AND YOU SPOKE TO HIM FOR HOW LONG IN THE SECOND PHONE CALL?

# 177 A:

PROBABLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME. MAYBE FIVE MAX.

# 178 Q:

AND DURING THE SECOND PHONE CALL, WHO DID YOU TALK TO BESIDES THE DEFENDANT?

# 179 A:

I DON'T KNOW.

# 180 Q:

AND IN THE FIRST PHONE CALL WHEN YOU SPOKE TO HOWARD WEITZMAN, HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK TO HIM?

# 181 A:

MAYBE FIVE MINUTES.

# 182 Q:

AND HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK TO CATHY RANDA?

# 183 A:

I -- TWO MINUTES.

# 184 Q:

AND HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK TO SKIP TAFT?

# 185 A:

I CAN'T GIVE LIKE EXACT TIMES. I -- I DON'T KNOW. FIVE MINUTES.

# 186 Q:

AND IN THE SECOND PHONE CALL, WHAT DID YOU DISCUSS WITH THE DEFENDANT?

# 187 A:

I -- I SAID I COULDN'T BELIEVE THIS -- WHAT WAS GOING ON, AND I -- I WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT THAT.

# 188 Q:

ABOUT WHAT?

# 189 A:

I DON'T -- THE NIGHT OF STRANGE THINGS. I SAID I HEARD THE THUMPING NOISE.

# 190 Q:

DID -- DID THE DEFENDANT TELL YOU WHAT HAD OCCURRED WITH HIM AFTER HE GOT BACK FROM CHICAGO OR DID YOU KNOW?

# 191 A:

WHAT HAD OCCURRED TO HIM AFTER CHICAGO?

# 192 Q:

AFTER HE GOT BACK FROM CHICAGO, RIGHT.

# 193 A:

NO, I DIDN'T KNOW.

# 194 Q:

YOU WEREN'T WATCHING T.V.?

# 195 A:

I -- THE T.V. MIGHT HAVE BEEN ON. I KNEW AT SOME POINT, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WAS ALL GOING ON. I KNEW THAT HE WAS ARRESTED.

# 196 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU TALK TO HIM ABOUT THAT?

# 197 A:

I THINK SO. I REALLY DON'T KNOW THE -- THE DIALOGUE.

# 198 Q:

WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU LEFT THE POLICE STATION TO GO TO GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE?

# 199 A:

I THINK AT 4:00 O'CLOCK OR SO; 4:00, 4:15.

# 200 Q:

OKAY. AFTER THE SECOND PHONE CALL, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT; THAT IS THE SECOND PHONE CALL FROM THE DEFENDANT TO YOU AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE?

# 201 A:

I DON'T KNOW. BUT I STAYED AT GRANT'S HOUSE FOR A WHILE.

# 202 Q:

DID YOU EVENTUALLY LEAVE HIS HOUSE?

# 203 A:

YES.

# 204 Q:

AND WHERE DID YOU GO?

# 205 A:

I WENT BACK TO THE ROCKINGHAM HOUSE.

# 206 Q:

AND WHY DID YOU DO THAT?

# 207 A:

I HAD MY CLOTHES THERE.

# 208 Q:

DID SOMEONE ASK YOU TO GO BACK?

# 209 A:

UMM, I -- I DON'T REMEMBER. I THINK I JUST WENT BACK.

# 210 Q:

YOU DON'T REMEMBER?

# 211 A:

I WENT BACK -- YES. I WENT BACK AND O.J. WAS THERE.

# 212 Q:

UH-HUH. DID HE ASK YOU TO COME BACK?

# 213 A:

HE COULD HAVE. AND I DID COME BACK.

# 214 Q:

SO WHAT TIME DID YOU GO BACK TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 215 A:

I THINK IT WAS LATE. I THINK IT WAS DARK. I -- I DON'T KNOW THE TIMES, BUT GRANT TOOK ME BACK.

# 216 Q:

GRANT GAVE YOU A RIGHT TO THE DEFENDANT'S HOUSE?

# 217 A:

YES.

# 218 Q:

AND THIS WAS AFTER YOU HAD LEARNED THAT HE HAD BEEN ARRESTED FOR TWO MURDERS; IS THAT RIGHT?

KEY QUOTE

# 219 A:

YES.

# 220 Q:

YOU WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 221 A:

YES.

# 222 Q:

AND WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM, WHO WAS THERE?

# 223 A:

IT WAS FILLED WITH PEOPLE.

# 224 Q:

WHO?

# 225 A:

I -- I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THE PEOPLE. IT WAS A LOT OF RELATIVES, FRIENDS, UMM, UH, FACES THAT I DIDN'T KNOW AND RELATIVES, ARNELLE AND JASON AND --

# 226 Q:

OKAY. DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU GOT THERE EXACTLY?

# 227 A:

I THOUGHT IT WAS MAYBE 9:30 OR 10:00. I -- I DON'T KNOW THE TIME. I KNOW THE NEWS WAS ON.

# 228 Q:

DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU LEFT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE TO GO TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 229 A:

I DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW THE TIME.

# 230 Q:

AT ALL?

# 231 A:

AT ALL.

# 232 Q:

WHO DID YOU TALK TO WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 233 A:

I -- I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH O.J.

# 234 Q:

AND WHAT DID YOU TALK TO HIM ABOUT?

# 235 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. CALLS FOR HEARSAY.

# 236 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 237 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

THERE WAS A CONVERSATION THAT, UH -- ABOUT THE MC DONALD'S, THAT I DIDN'T SEE HIM GO BACK IN THE HOUSE, AND THAT WAS WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT.

KEY QUOTE

# 238 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: UH-HUH.

# 239 A:

AND I SAID NO, I DIDN'T SEE.

# 240 Q:

OKAY. AND DID YOU TALK TO HIM ALSO ABOUT THE THUMPS ON THE WALL?

# 241 A:

YES.

# 242 Q:

DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT YOU HAD TOLD THE POLICE?

# 243 A:

YES. THAT I HEARD THIS THUMPING, THE PICTURE MOVED.

# 244 Q:

AND DID HE ASK YOU WHAT YOU TOLD THE POLICE?

# 245 A:

HE COULD HAVE. I -- I'M SURE I TOLD HIM AND I TOLD THE TRUTH.

# 246 Q:

YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF HE ASKED YOU WHETHER OR NOT HE TOLD YOU -- HE ASKED YOU WHAT YOU TOLD THE POLICE?

# 247 A:

I -- I DON'T. I SAID -- I -- I -- I SAID I WAS AT THE STATION AND I -- I WAS REPORT AND I TOLD WHAT I'M TELLING YOU, THAT I HEARD THESE NOISES, BUT I -- HE HAD ASKED ME ABOUT THAT I SAW HIM GO BACK IN THE HOUSE AND I DIDN'T.

# 248 Q:

OKAY. AT SOME POINT, DID YOU LEAVE ROCKINGHAM THAT NIGHT?

# 249 A:

I THINK I DID.

# 250 Q:

AND WHEN WAS THAT?

# 251 A:

I DON'T KNOW THE TIME, BUT I THINK I STAYED AT GRANT'S HOUSE.

# 252 Q:

AND DO YOU RECALL WHETHER IT WAS BEFORE OR AFTER MIDNIGHT THAT YOU LEFT ROCKINGHAM?

# 253 A:

I THINK IT COULD HAVE BEEN AFTER MIDNIGHT.

# 254 Q:

AND YOU WENT BACK TO GRANT'S HOUSE?

# 255 A:

YES.

# 256 Q:

WHO ELSE WAS AT GRANT'S HOUSE BESIDES YOU AND GRANT?

# 257 A:

HIS GIRLFRIEND.

# 258 Q:

HIS GIRLFRIEND - WHAT'S HER NAME?

# 259 A:

CATHY.

# 260 Q:

AND WHO ELSE?

# 261 A:

I THINK THERE WAS A GUY THERE THAT DAY, BUT HE WAS LEAVING. HIS NAME WAS CLINE.

# 262 Q:

UH-HUH. WHAT ABOUT RACHEL FERRARA? WAS SHE THERE?

# 263

A: DID RACHEL SHOW -- SHE MIGHT HAVE BEEN THERE. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 264 MS. CLARK:

I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY THE SEGMENT OF A VIDEO THAT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY SHOWN TO COUNSEL MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 143.

# 265 (PEO'S 143 FOR ID = VIDEOTAPE)

# 266 (AT 2:45 P.M., PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 143, A VIDEOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

# 267 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHO'S THAT?

# 268 A:

UH, RON SHIPP.

# 269 Q:

AND WHERE IS THAT LOCATION SHOWN IN THIS VIDEO?

# 270 A:

HE'S GOING TOWARDS THE ROCKINGHAM GATE.

# 271 Q:

WHO'S THAT?

# 272 A:

THAT'S ME.

# 273 Q:

AND THAT SHIRT YOU'RE WEARING, SIR, DO YOU RECOGNIZE IT?

# 274 A:

YEAH.

# 275 Q:

CAN YOU REMEMBER -- DO YOU REMEMBER WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS THE SHIRT YOU WERE WEARING ON THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF JUNE THE 13TH?

# 276 A:

THAT IS. THAT'S ALSO IN THE POLICE STATION I WAS WEARING.

# 277 Q:

YOU WORE THAT SHIRT ALL DAY, DID YOU?

# 278 A:

YES, I DID.

# 279 Q:

AND DID YOU WEAR THAT SHIRT WHEN YOU LEFT GRANT CRAMER'S TO GO BACK TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 280 A:

PROBABLY.

# 281 Q:

ON JUNE THE 13TH?

# 282 A:

YES.

# 283 Q:

WAS THAT YES?

# 284 A:

YES. I THINK I WORE IT LIKE TWO DAYS MAYBE.

# 285 Q:

REALLY?

# 286 A:

I WORE IT.

# 287 Q:

SEE THAT MAN? WHO'S THAT?

# 288 A:

THAT'S -- LOOKED LIKE DETECTIVE LANGE AND ROBERT KARDASHIAN.

# 289 Q:

AND WHO IS THAT DOG?

# 290 A:

AND THAT'S CHACHI. THAT'S A CHOW.

# 291 Q:

THAT'S THE DOG YOU WERE DESCRIBING AS THE DEFENDANT'S DOG?

# 292 A:

YES.

# 293 (AT 2:48 P.M., THE PLAYING OF THE VIDEOTAPE ENDED.)

# 294 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. YOU SPENT THE NIGHT THEN AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 13TH?

# 295 A:

YES.

# 296 Q:

ON JUNE THE 14TH, DID YOU RECEIVE ANOTHER PHONE CALL FROM CATHY RANDA?

# 297 A:

I THINK SO.

# 298 Q:

AND DID SHE ASK YOU TO DO SOMETHING?

# 299 A:

UH, TO COME IN FOR AN INTERVIEW.

# 300 Q:

COME WHERE FOR AN INTERVIEW?

# 301 A:

TO, UMM, O.J.'S OFFICE BUILDING.

# 302 Q:

AND DID YOU DO THAT?

# 303 A:

YES.

# 304 Q:

AND WHO DID YOU TALK TO?

# 305 A:

AT THE INTERVIEW?

# 306 Q:

YES.

# 307 A:

IT WAS SKIP TAFT AND ROBERT SHAPIRO.

# 308 Q:

ROBERT SHAPIRO?

# 309 A:

YES.

# 310 Q:

AND WAS THAT INTERVIEW TAPE-RECORDED?

# 311 A:

YES.

# 312 Q:

DO YOU -- NOW, DID YOU GO BACK TO ROCKINGHAM ON JUNE THE 14TH AS WELL?

# 313 A:

I MIGHT HAVE GONE BACK, BUT I DON'T THINK I STAYED THE NIGHT. I WASN'T -- YOU KNOW, I WASN'T SLEEPING WELL AND I WAS EXHAUSTED AND I -- GIGI, THE HOUSEKEEPER, WE KIND OF LIKE HUNG OUT AND I SLEPT ON THE FLOOR AND SHE SLEPT IN THE BED AND WE JUST KIND OF STAYED AND I WAS OFF AND ON LEAVING -- I CAN'T -- THE DATES, I DON'T KNOW WHEN I LEFT AND WHEN I CAME BACK BECAUSE I KNOW I WAS GOING BACK AND FORTH. IT'S VERY HARD TO REMEMBER.

# 314 Q:

WHO TOOK YOU TO THE -- WHO TOOK YOU TO THE DEFENDANT'S OFFICE BUILDING FOR THE INTERVIEW WITH ROBERT SHAPIRO?

# 315 A:

UMM, ARNELLE AND HER FRIEND, JONAH.

# 316 Q:

AND DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THEY PICKED -- LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING ELSE. DO YOU RECALL GRANT CRAMER TAKING YOU TO THE DEFENDANT'S HOUSE ON ROCKINGHAM IN THE MORNING OF JUNE THE 14TH?

# 317 A:

YEAH. I THINK SO. THEY PROBABLY DID.

# 318 Q:

AND WHO ASKED YOU TO GO OVER TO ROCKINGHAM THAT MORNING?

# 319 A:

O.J.

# 320 Q:

OKAY. AND DID YOU TALK TO HIM AGAIN ON THE MORNING OF JUNE THE 14TH AT ROCKINGHAM?

# 321 A:

I THINK SO. THAT I WAS GOING TO MEET FOR THE INTERVIEW.

# 322 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU SPEAK TO HIM AT ROCKINGHAM BEFORE YOU LEFT FOR THE INTERVIEW?

# 323 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T KNOW IF I SAW HIM THERE. ON -- ON TUESDAY?

# 324 Q:

RIGHT.

# 325 A:

I -- I COULD HAVE.

# 326 Q:

OKAY.

# 327 A:

BUT I KNOW I WAS MEETING WITH SKIP TAFT AND ROBERT SHAPIRO, AND THEY TOOK ME TO THE OFFICE BUILDING.

# 328 Q:

AND WHO WAS IT THAT TOOK YOU TO THE OFFICE BUILDING?

# 329 A:

ARNELLE AND JONAH WAS DRIVING.

# 330 Q:

UH-HUH. SO THEY TOOK YOU FROM ROCKINGHAM TO THE OFFICE BUILDING; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 331 A:

YES, THEY DID.

# 332 Q:

AND HOW LONG DID YOU TALK TO MR. SHAPIRO FOR?

# 333 A:

I THINK I WAS THERE ABOUT AN HOUR AND A HALF, TWO HOURS.

# 334 Q:

AND AFTER YOU HAD THAT INTERVIEW WITH MR. SHAPIRO AND SKIP TAFT, DID YOU GET A RIDE BACK TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 335 A:

YES, I DID.

# 336 Q:

AND DID YOU SPEND THE NIGHT THAT TUESDAY NIGHT AT ROCKINGHAM?

# 337 A:

I COULD HAVE. I'M NOT 100 PERCENT POSITIVE.

# 338 Q:

DO YOU RECALL CALLING GRANT CRAMER ON THE FOLLOWING WEDNESDAY FROM ROCKINGHAM?

# 339 A:

PROBABLY DID, YES.

# 340 Q:

AND DO YOU RECALL WHAT YOU SAID TO HIM?

# 341 A:

I PROBABLY SAID A FEW THINGS. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. I THINK I PROBABLY TOLD HIM ABOUT THE INTERVIEW I HAD.

# 342 Q:

WITH WHO?

# 343 A:

WITH ROBERT SHAPIRO AND SKIP TAFT.

# 344 Q:

UH-HUH.

# 345 A:

AND I PROBABLY TOLD THEM THAT I DID THAT AND, UH --

# 346 MR. SHAPIRO:

YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO ANY FURTHER CONVERSATIONS AS BEING HEARSAY.

# 347 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 348 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECALL SPENDING THE NIGHT THERE ON JUNE THE 15TH?

# 349 A:

AT?

# 350 Q:

THAT WOULD BE WEDNESDAY NIGHT AT ROCKINGHAM.

# 351 A:

IF I DID, I DON'T REMEMBER, BUT I PROBABLY DID. I KNOW I WAS GOING BACK AND FORTH AND LEAVING PRETTY MUCH ALL THE TIME.

# 352 Q:

OKAY. DO YOU RECALL AT WHAT POINT YOU WENT BACK IF EVER YOU WENT BACK TO GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE?

# 353 A:

I WAS GOING TO GRANT'S A LOT. I PROBABLY DID EVERY DAY, WOULD GO TO HIS HOUSE AND -- AND BE THERE.

# 354 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU GO BACK TO HIS HOUSE ON THE NIGHT OF TUESDAY, JUNE THE 14TH?

# 355 A:

AFTER THE INTERVIEW?

# 356 Q:

AT SHAPIRO'S -- WITH ROBERT SHAPIRO?

# 357 A:

YEAH. AT O.J.'S OFFICE.

# 358 Q:

RIGHT.

# 359 A:

I THINK I DID. I THINK I CAME HOME, IT WAS LATE. I PROBABLY GOT HOME ABOUT 11:00, 11:30. EITHER I -- I DON'T KNOW IF I STAYED OR NOT, BUT I -- I COULD HAVE LEFT TO GRANT'S. THAT -- I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE TIME FRAME OF WHOSE HOUSE I WAS STAYING AT. I KNOW I WASN'T SLEEPING WELL AT -- AT O.J.'S HOUSE AT ALL AND I WAS TRYING TO GO TO GRANT'S.

# 360 Q:

SO YOU DID SPEND AT LEAST ONE NIGHT AT THE DEFENDANT'S HOUSE; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 361 A:

I THINK -- I THINK I SPENT AT LEAST ONE NIGHT.

# 362 Q:

COULD IT HAVE BEEN TWO NIGHTS?

# 363 A:

IT COULD HAVE.

# 364 Q:

DO YOU RECALL ON THURSDAY THE 16TH WHETHER OR NOT YOU WENT BACK TO GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE TO SPEND THE NIGHT?

# 365 A:

ON THE 16TH?

# 366 Q:

YES.

# 367 A:

UH, I THINK I DID.

# 368 Q:

OKAY. NOW, YOU HAD THE INTERVIEW WITH MR. SHAPIRO ON JUNE THE 14TH. THAT WAS AN HOUR AND A HALF TO TWO HOURS YOU SAID?

# 369 A:

YES.

# 370 Q:

DID YOU HAVE A SUBSEQUENT INTERVIEW WITH INVESTIGATORS EMPLOYED BY THE DEFENDANT?

# 371 A:

YES, I DID.

# 372 Q:

AND WHEN WAS THAT?

# 373 A:

IT WAS IN THE SUMMERTIME.

# 374 Q:

OF '94?

# 375 A:

YES.

# 376 Q:

AND WHO WERE THOSE INVESTIGATORS?

# 377 A:

ONE NAME WAS HOSTETLER AND ANOTHER NAME WAS, UMM, PLAVICK, CLAVNICK.

# 378 Q:

PAVELIC?

# 379 A:

PAVELIC.

# 380 Q:

AND HOW LONG DID THAT INTERVIEW LAST?

# 381 A:

THAT WAS ABOUT TWO TO THREE HOURS.

# 382 Q:

WAS IT RECORDED?

# 383 A:

I DON'T THINK IT WAS RECORDED. I THINK IT WAS -- IT WAS NOTES. IT COULD HAVE BEEN --

# 384 Q:

DID THEY TAKE NOTES?

# 385 A:

YEAH. MY LAWYER BILL WAS THERE. I THINK HE WOULDN'T -- I THINK IT WAS JUST NOTES.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Kato Kaelin

THEY SAID TO TELL THE TRUTH.

Kaelin's account of what OJ Simpson and attorney Howard Weitzman told him in their first phone call after the murders — a statement that sounds coached even as it claims innocence.

Kato Kaelin

THERE WAS A CONVERSATION THAT, UH -- ABOUT THE MC DONALD'S, THAT I DIDN'T SEE HIM GO BACK IN THE HOUSE, AND THAT WAS WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT. AND I SAID NO, I DIDN'T SEE.

Kaelin describes OJ pressing him specifically on whether he saw OJ re-enter the house after McDonald's — a critical gap in the prosecution's timeline.

Marcia Clark

AND THIS WAS AFTER YOU HAD LEARNED THAT HE HAD BEEN ARRESTED FOR TWO MURDERS; IS THAT RIGHT?

Clark pointedly underscores that Kaelin voluntarily returned to Rockingham and continued talking with OJ even after knowing he was a murder suspect.

Kato Kaelin

I THINK I WORE IT LIKE TWO DAYS MAYBE. I WORE IT.

Kaelin casually admits to wearing the same shirt for two days while identifying himself on People's 143 videotape — a characteristic Kato moment.

Evidence (1)

People's 143

Videotape footage from Rockingham on June 13, showing Ron Shipp, Kato Kaelin (in his two-day shirt), Detective Lange, Robert Kardashian, and OJ's chow dog Chachi near the Rockingham gate.

played in court; Kaelin identifies individuals and the dog

Notable Exchanges (3)

Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin

Clark establishes a sequence of multiple phone calls on June 13 — from OJ's secretary Cathy Randa patching in attorney Howard Weitzman, then OJ himself — in which Kaelin was told to 'tell the truth.' Clark probes whether this amounted to coordination between the defendant and a key witness hours after the murders.

strategic

Judge Ito•Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin

Ito interrupts to admonish both Kaelin and Clark for speaking over each other, telling Kaelin to wait for Clark to finish her questions and Clark to let Kaelin finish his answers.

procedural

Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin

Clark walks Kaelin through returning to Rockingham after OJ's arrest, where OJ specifically asked Kaelin what he saw regarding re-entry after McDonald's and what he told police about the thumping noise.

revealing

Light Moments (2)

Kato Kaelin

Kaelin identifies the dog in the People's 143 video: 'AND THAT'S CHACHI. THAT'S A CHOW.' — delivered with the same earnest energy as everything else.

Kato Kaelin

After Clark expresses mild surprise that he wore the same shirt two days, Kaelin doubles down: 'I THINK I WORE IT LIKE TWO DAYS MAYBE. I WORE IT.'

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Kato Kaelin

establishing bias / witness preparation

Clark methodically documents that OJ's legal team (Weitzman, Shapiro, Taft, Randa) made contact with Kaelin within hours of the murders, that OJ himself was on those calls, and that Kaelin subsequently met privately with Shapiro for 90 minutes — suggesting Kaelin's testimony may have been shaped by those early contacts.

Witness Demeanor

Chronically uncertain — phrases like 'I don't remember,' 'I could have,' 'probably,' and 'I think' appear throughout nearly every answer

Talks over Clark repeatedly, prompting judicial intervention

Becomes visibly tangled when trying to reconstruct the sequence of phone calls: 'BOY, I -- I JUST CAN'T -- I CAN'T REMEMBER THAT -- THE PHONE CALL.'

Objections

6 objections (1 sustained, 5 overruled)

Proceeding 5383 • 385 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103