Marcia Clark walks Kato Kaelin through the early morning hours of June 13, 1994, from the moment four detectives knocked on his guest house door through his eventual removal from the Rockingham property. Kaelin recounts his brief room interview with Detective Fuhrman, his longer conversation with Detective Vannatter at the bar area (where he reported the 10:40 PM thumps and OJ's departure at roughly 11:15), and the moment Arnelle Simpson screamed 'Oh my God' from the kitchen. Kaelin was then escorted out past blood drops in the foyer, taken to West LA station for several hours of questioning, and dropped at friend Grant Cramer's house.
# 1 Q: YOU KEPT YOUR EYES CLOSED?
# 2 A: YEAH. IT WAS -- IT WAS THE RINGING IN MY HEAD AND I WAS TRYING TO SLEEP. I DIDN'T -- I THOUGHT IT WAS MAYBE A DREAM, BUT IT WAS JUST RINGING AND RINGING.
# 3 Q: NOW, AT SOME POINT, WERE YOU AWAKEN?
# 6 A: THERE WAS A KNOCKING -- BANGING AT THE DOOR.
# 7 Q: AND WHO WAS AT THE DOOR?
# 8 A: UH, FOUR DETECTIVES.
# 9 Q: AND DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN THOSE FOUR DETECTIVES KNOCKED ON YOUR DOOR OR CAME TO YOUR DOOR?
# 10 A: I THOUGHT IT WAS BETWEEN 5:00 AND 6:00 A.M.
# 11 Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THOSE OFFICERS WERE DRESSED IN, HOW DID THEY APPEAR?
# 12 A: SUIT COAT AND TIE.
# 15 Q: DO YOU RECALL WHAT EXACTLY -- WHICH ONES WERE WEARING -- IF THEY WERE ALL WEARING COATS OR WHETHER SOME WERE NOT?
# 16 MR. SHAPIRO: ASKED AND ANSWERED.
# 17 THE COURT: OVERRULED. IT'S LEADING IS WHAT IT IS. LEADING.
# 18 Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECALL WHETHER -- WHETHER OR NOT ALL OF THEM WERE WEARING COATS?
# 19 A: I THINK THEY ALL WERE WEARING SUIT COATS.
# 21 A: NO. I'M NOT A HUNDRED PERCENT SURE, BUT I THOUGHT THEY WERE WEARING COATS.
# 22 Q: WERE THEY ALL WEARING TIES?
# 23 A: I THINK SO. I'M PRETTY SURE THEY WERE WEARING TIES, YES.
# 24 Q: DID THEY ASK SOMETHING OF YOU WHEN YOU OPENED THE DOOR?
# 25 A: THEY SAID, "POLICE."
# 26 Q: AND DID THEY ASK YOU ANY QUESTIONS?
# 27 A: AFTER I OPENED THE DOOR?
# 31 A: IT WAS, "WHO ARE YOU," UH, "DO YOU LIVE HERE, WHO ELSE LIVES HERE," UH, DO I OWN A CAR OR A TRUCK, UH --
# 32 Q: DID THEY ASK WHAT YOUR NAME IS?
# 33 A: YES. THEY ASKED MY NAME.
# 34 Q: NOW, WHAT WAS -- WHAT WAS YOUR CONDITION AT THE TIME --
# 35 MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I DON'T THINK HE IS FINISHED WITH HIS ANSWER.
# 36 THE COURT: I'M SORRY. MR. KAELIN, HAVE YOU FINISHED TELLING US WHAT THEY ASKED YOU?
# 37 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: I'M GOING IN MY HEAD WHAT ELSE WAS ASKED OF ME IN THE BEGINNING. BUT, UMM, YEAH, THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF WHAT THEY -- THEY ASKED ME.
# 38 Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS YOUR STATE OF MIND OR YOUR CONDITION AT THE TIME -- AT THE TIME THAT THOSE OFFICERS KNOCKED ON YOUR DOOR?
# 39 A: WELL, I WAS SHOOKEN UP. THERE WAS FOUR STRANGERS AT MY DOOR AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON. SO I WAS VERY STARTLED.
# 40 Q: OKAY. DID YOU FEEL -- CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER YOU FELT DISORIENTED OR CONFUSED?
# 42 Q: DID YOU EXPECT TO SEE OFFICERS AT YOUR DOOR BETWEEN 5:00 AND 6:00 IN THE MORNING?
# 44 Q: NOW, DO YOU RECALL HOW MANY OFFICERS THERE WERE AT YOUR DOOR?
# 46 Q: ALL RIGHT. AND WHO WAS THE ONE SPEAKING TO YOU WHEN YOU FIRST OPENED THE DOOR?
# 47 A: I DON'T KNOW HIS NAME. I DON'T KNOW THAT DETECTIVE'S NAME.
# 48 Q: OKAY. WAS IT PHIL VANNATTER?
# 50 Q: WAS IT TOM LANGE?
# 52 Q: WAS IT MARK FUHRMAN?
# 54 Q: WAS IT RON PHILLIPS?
# 55 A: IF -- IF THAT WAS THE FOURTH DETECTIVE, YES.
# 56 Q: OKAY. BUT YOU KNOW WHO PHIL VANNATTER IS, RIGHT?
# 58 Q: YOU KNOW WHO TOM LANGE IS?
# 60 Q: YOU KNOW WHO MARK FUHRMAN IS?
# 62 Q: OKAY. IT WASN'T ONE OF THOSE.
# 64 Q: IT WAS THE FOURTH GUY?
# 66 Q: WHEN THEY ASKED IF YOU LIVED THERE, WHAT DID YOU SAY?
# 67 A: YES. I STAYED IN THIS -- MY -- THE GUEST HOUSE.
# 68 Q: WHAT DID YOU TELL THE FOUR -- WHEN THE FOUR OFFICERS FIRST CAME TO YOUR DOOR, WHAT DID YOU TELL THEM?
# 69 A: WELL, I ALSO HAD SAID, "IS EVERYTHING OKAY?" I SAID, "DID O.J.'S PLANE CRASH?" I WAS --
# 70 Q: DID YOU SAY "O.J.'S PLANE" OR DID YOU SAY "THE PLANE"?
# 71 MR. SHAPIRO: HE JUST TOLD US THE ANSWER, YOUR HONOR. IT'S LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.
# 72 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. IT'S LEADING.
# 73 Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECALL WHETHER YOU SAID IT WAS "O.J.'S PLANE" OR "THE PLANE"?
# 74 A: I POSSIBLY COULD HAVE SAID THE PLANE CRASHED, THE PLANE CRASHED, I COULD HAVE AND I -- I THINK I DID. I WAS WORRIED ABOUT A PLANE CRASH.
# 75 Q: OKAY. AND DID THEY RESPOND TO THAT?
# 77 Q: WAS THAT THE FIRST THING YOU SAID?
# 78 A: IT WAS ONE OF THE VERY FIRST IF NOT THE FIRST.
# 79 Q: OKAY. DID YOU TELL THEM WHO LIVED THERE?
# 80 A: GOSH, I DON'T REMEMBER. I DID -- I DON'T THINK I DID.
# 81 Q: OKAY. AT SOME POINT, DID YOU DIRECT THEM TO ARNELLE'S HOUSE?
# 83 Q: ARNELLE'S UNIT? AND WHY WAS THAT?
# 84 A: THEY HAD ASKED WHO ELSE LIVED ON THE -- ON THE GROUNDS, AND I POINTED TO HER ROOM.
# 85 Q: OKAY. DID THEY EVER ASK IF THEY COULD GET INTO THE HOUSE OR SOMEONE COULD HELP THEM WITH THAT?
# 86 A: UMM, THEY ASKED IF I HAD KEYS TO THE HOUSE, IF I COULD GET INTO THE HOUSE. I SAID NO, AND THAT'S WHY I POINTED TO I BELIEVE ARNELLE.
# 87 Q: AND AFTER YOU POINTED OUT ARNELLE'S UNIT, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
# 88 A: SO I POINTED TO ARNELLE'S UNIT AND THEY KNOCKED ON HER DOOR. I BELIEVE IT WAS TWO, TWO DETECTIVES WENT AND KNOCKED ON THE DOOR AND THEY -- THEY POUNDED ON THE DOOR FOR A WHILE, AND THEN ARNELLE CAME OUT.
# 89 Q: AND YOU SAW ARNELLE COME OUT?
# 91 Q: AND WHERE WERE YOU WHEN SHE DID THAT?
# 92 A: AT MY, UH, DOORWAY.
# 93 Q: AND WAS SOMEONE -- WHICH OFFICERS WERE STAYING WITH YOU?
# 94 A: ONE WAS DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND I DON'T KNOW THE OTHER ONE.
# 95 Q: OKAY. ARE YOU SURE THERE WERE TWO DETECTIVES STAYING WITH YOU?
# 97 Q: DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
# 99 Q: BY THE WAY, WHEN THE OFFICERS WENT OVER TO ARNELLE'S DOOR, CAN YOU TELL US HOW LONG IT TOOK HER TO ANSWER, BEFORE SHE ANSWERED?
# 100 A: BOY, THEY -- THEY POUNDED FOR A WHILE AND I GUESS -- IT SEEMED LIKE TWO MINUTES MIGHT HAVE BEEN A VERY LONG TIME FOR THE POUNDING THAT WAS GOING ON. I WOULD SAY TWO TO THREE MINUTES.
# 101 Q: OKAY. AND DURING THAT TIME THAT THEY WERE KNOCKING ON HER DOOR, WHAT WERE YOU DOING?
# 102 A: I WAS WONDERING WHY SHE WASN'T GETTING THE DOOR BECAUSE IT SEEMED PRETTY LOUD, AND THAT WAS IT.
# 103 Q: WERE YOU TALKING TO ANYONE?
# 106 A: I THINK IT WAS DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.
# 107 Q: AND WHAT WERE YOU TELLING -- WAS HE ASKING YOU QUESTIONS AT THAT TIME?
# 108 A: WE WENT IN MY ROOM AFTER ARNELLE CAME OUT.
# 109 Q: OKAY. WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU AND -- YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WENT INTO YOUR ROOM?
# 111 Q: OKAY. AFTER ARNELLE CAME OUT AND YOU AND DETECTIVE WENT INTO YOUR ROOM -- DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WENT INTO YOUR ROOM, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
# 112 A: UMM, HE ASKED ME SOME QUESTIONS.
# 113 Q: OKAY. WHAT DID HE -- BEFORE HE ASKED YOU QUESTIONS, WHAT DID HE DO IN THE ROOM?
# 114 A: UMM, HE LOOKED AROUND THE ROOM.
# 115 Q: OKAY. AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN, HE LOOKED AROUND THE ROOM?
# 116 A: WELL, HE WAS IN MY ROOM AND I WAS KIND OF POINTING THINGS OUT IN THE ROOM.
# 117 MS. CLARK: 129-B, YOUR HONOR.
# 118 Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU HAVE CLOSETS IN THAT ROOM?
# 120 Q: CAN YOU INDICATE WHERE ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH THOSE CLOSETS ARE?
# 121 A: YEAH. IN THE -- UMM, ON THE TOP PHOTOGRAPH HERE (INDICATING).
# 122 Q: OKAY. DIRECT THE LIGHT.
# 123 A: IT'S STRAIGHT AGAINST -- GO STRAIGHT UP AND GO A LITTLE BIT TO YOUR RIGHT. RIGHT THERE (INDICATING).
# 124 Q: OKAY. THIS DOOR IS A CLOSET?
# 125 A: THERE'S DOORS THERE, CORRECT.
# 126 Q: THESE TWO DOORS?
# 127 A: TWO OF THEM, RIGHT. NOW, THE ONE ON THE -- ON YOUR FAR RIGHT, THAT'S MORE THE CLOTHES CLOSET, AND THE OTHER ONE HAS JUST LIKE A LITTLE LIKE STOVE IN IT, YOU COULD STORE THINGS IN, BUT IT'S MORE -- NOT A CLOSET, BUT LIKE A LITTLE STOVE'S IN THERE AND YOU CAN STACK STUFF UP ON TOP.
# 128 Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER THOSE CLOSET DOORS WERE OPEN OR CLOSED WHEN DETECTIVE FUHRMAN STEPPED IN YOUR ROOM THAT NIGHT OR MORNING?
# 129 A: I -- I DON'T RECALL.
# 130 Q: AND SO HE -- YOU SHOWED HIM AROUND THE ROOM?
# 131 A: YEAH. I POINTED -- I MEAN THE CLOSET FOR ME, I PROBABLY HAD IT OPEN. BUT I SHOWED HIM THE ROOM.
# 132 Q: AND HE LOOKED AROUND?
# 133 A: AND HE LOOKED AROUND.
# 134 Q: WHAT DID HE ASK YOU?
# 135 A: HE ASKED ME, UH, WHAT I WORE LAST NIGHT, THE NIGHT BEFORE.
# 136 Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO?
# 138 Q: AND WHERE WERE THOSE CLOTHES?
# 139 A: THERE'S A CHAIR THAT I USUALLY HUNG THINGS ON. SO MY -- MY PANTS WERE THERE AND THEN I HAD, UH, BOOTS AND HE LOOKED AT THE BOOTS AND HE EXAMINED THE BOTTOM OF THE BOOTS.
# 140 Q: SO HE LOOKED AT YOUR CLOTHING AND YOUR BOOTS?
# 142 Q: WHAT ELSE DID HE ASK YOU?
# 143 A: HE ASKED ME, UH, WHY -- I STILL SHOWED HIM LIKE THE TYPEWRITER, WHAT I WAS DOING THAT NIGHT, AND I SHOWED HIM THE OFFICE. I SAID THIS IS THE TYPEWRITER I WAS TRYING TO TYPE YESTERDAY AND, UH, I BROUGHT UP THE NOISE, THE THUMPS THAT I HEARD TO HIM.
# 144 Q: DID HE ASK YOU WHERE YOU HAD BEEN THE NIGHT BEFORE?
# 145 A: NO. I DON'T -- HE ASKED ME WHAT I HAD DONE, DID THE NIGHT BEFORE, AND I TOLD HIM ABOUT TALKING TO RACHEL.
# 146 Q: OKAY. AND AT ANY POINT, DO YOU RECALL DISCUSSING WITH HIM WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAD BEEN DRINKING OR DOING ANY DRUGS THE NIGHT BEFORE?
# 147 A: YES. HE ASKED ME THAT AND HE GAVE ME A TEST.
# 148 Q: WHAT KIND OF TEST DID HE GIVE YOU?
# 149 A: FOLLOW -- I THINK IT WAS A PEN.
# 150 Q: HE TOOK A PEN OUT?
# 151 A: A PEN. I -- HE MIGHT HAVE HAD A LIGHT IN MY EYES, BUT HE HAD A PEN, AND I FOLLOWED IT.
# 152 Q: HE -- AND HE MADE YOU FOLLOW THE PEN?
# 154 Q: WATCHING BACK AND FORTH. OKAY. CAN YOU TELL US HOW YOU LOOKED THAT NIGHT WHEN YOU GOT WOKEN UP BETWEEN 5:00 AND 6:00 A.M.?
# 155 A: HOW I LOOKED THAT NIGHT?
# 158 Q: HOW ABOUT YOUR EYES?
# 159 A: RED. AND I MEAN THEY LOOKED -- THEY WERE VERY RED AND THEY -- JUST RED AND I THINK HE MIGHT HAVE ASSUMED THAT -- HE ASKED ME IF I WAS SMOKING MARIJUANA.
# 160 Q: OKAY. HAD YOU BEEN?
# 162 Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU TOLD HIM ABOUT THE THUMPS ON THE WALL?
# 164 Q: DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT TIME YOU HEARD THOSE THUMPS?
# 165 A: TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, I DON'T REMEMBER IF I TOLD HIM THE TIME ON THAT. I TOLD HIM ABOUT THE NOISE I HEARD.
# 166 Q: UH-HUH. YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF YOU TOLD HIM WHAT TIME OR NOT?
# 167 A: I DON'T. I DON'T THINK I DID.
# 168 Q: YOU DON'T THINK YOU DID?
# 169 A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF I -- IF I -- RIGHT NOW, I DON'T KNOW IF I DID -- I KNOW I SAID I HEARD THIS NOISE, THESE THUMPS TO HIM I TOLD.
# 170 Q: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT IS -- WHAT IS THE STATE OF YOUR ANSWER, SIR? IS IT THAT YOU DO NOT REMEMBER WHETHER OR NOT YOU TOLD HIM OR YOU THINK YOU DID NOT?
# 171 A: THAT I DO NOT REMEMBER.
# 172 Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER.
# 173 A: I DON'T REMEMBER.
# 174 Q: YOU MIGHT HAVE TOLD HIM?
# 176 Q: OKAY. DID YOU TELL HIM THAT YOU HAD GONE OUT TO THAT WALKWAY AREA TWICE EARLIER THAT NIGHT TO INVESTIGATE THE THUMPS?
# 178 Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU INDICATED ALSO THAT YOU TOLD HIM ABOUT RACHEL. WHAT DID YOU SAY ABOUT THAT?
# 179 A: I WAS JUST TELLING HER -- I WAS TELLING HIM ABOUT THE NIGHT BEFORE AND I WAS TALKING TO HER MOST OF THE NIGHT.
# 180 Q: DID YOU HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH HIM ABOUT THE DEFENDANT'S WHITE FORD BRONCO?
# 182 Q: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAD ANY CONVERSATION WITH HIM ABOUT SEEING A LIMOUSINE AT THE HOUSE THE NIGHT BEFORE?
# 183 A: I THINK I DID TELL HIM THAT, ABOUT THE LIMOUSINE.
# 184 Q: OKAY. DID YOU EVER TELL HIM WHAT TIME THE DEFENDANT LEFT THE HOUSE?
# 185 A: I DON'T THINK I DID AT THAT TIME. NO.
# 186 Q: ANYTHING ELSE HAPPEN DURING YOUR -- ANY OTHER CONVERSATION THAT YOU CAN REMEMBER?
# 187 A: NO. I THINK AFTER HE DID THE TEST, WE WERE ALL GOING TO GO INSIDE THE MAIN HOUSE.
# 188 Q: OKAY. HOW LONG DID YOUR CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN LAST, SIR?
# 189 A: I THINK ABOUT FIVE MINUTES INSIDE THE ROOM.
# 190 Q: IS THAT AN ESTIMATE YOU'RE GIVING US?
# 191 A: ESTIMATE, ABOUT FIVE MINUTES.
# 192 Q: AFTER YOUR CONVERSATION, WHAT DID YOU DO?
# 193 A: I FOLLOWED -- WHATEVER THEY TOLD ME TO DO I DID. SO WE ALL WENT OUTSIDE.
# 194 Q: OKAY. DID HE TELL YOU TO COME OUTSIDE?
# 196 Q: AND WHERE DID HE TAKE YOU?
# 197 A: I FOLLOWED THROUGH INTO THE MAIN HOUSE.
# 198 Q: OKAY. WHO DID YOU FOLLOW?
# 199 A: I BELIEVE ARNELLE WAS LEADING WITH KEY AND THE REST OF THE DETECTIVES.
# 200 Q: OKAY. SO YOU ACTUALLY SAW ARNELLE WALKING INTO THE HOUSE AHEAD OF YOU?
# 202 Q: AND DID YOU WALK IN BEHIND HER?
# 204 Q: WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
# 206 Q: WHEN YOU ENTERED THE HOUSE, DID YOU ENTER BEFORE OR AFTER DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
# 207 A: I THINK IT WAS BEFORE.
# 208 Q: OKAY. YOU WERE AHEAD OF HIM?
# 209 A: I WAS AHEAD OF HIM.
# 210 Q: AND WHEN YOU ENTERED THE HOUSE, WHAT AREA DID YOU GO TO?
# 211 A: WHEN YOU GO INTO THAT DOOR, THERE'S A BAR AREA, AND I WENT TO THE BAR AREA.
# 212 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) # 213 Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU WENT TO THE BAR AREA?
# 215 Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO AT THE BAR AREA?
# 216 A: THEY ASKED ME TO HAVE A SEAT THERE.
# 217 Q: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
# 219 Q: SO YOU SAT AT THE BAR AREA DID YOU?
# 221 Q: THEN WHAT HAPPENED?
# 222 A: WELL, I SAT AT ONE OF THE STOOLS AT THE BAR AND THEN DETECTIVE VANNATTER SAT NEXT TO ME.
# 223 Q: OKAY. NOW, AFTER YOU SAT DOWN AT THE BAR AREA, WHERE DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN GO? DID HE STAY WITH YOU?
# 226 A: HE WASN'T IN THE ROOM WITH ME.
# 227 Q: OKAY. DID HE LEAVE AFTER YOU SAT AT THE BAR?
# 228 A: YEAH. HE WAS IN THE ROOM. SO HE LEFT.
# 229 Q: OKAY. AND THEN PHIL VANNATTER CAME AND SAT DOWN AND TALKED TO YOU DID HE?
# 231 Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM?
# 232 A: I WENT OVER PRETTY MUCH THE SAME THINGS AND TOLD HIM MORE ABOUT THE ENTIRE NIGHT, AND HE WROTE THINGS DOWN.
# 235 Q: NOW, DO YOU RECALL, DURING YOUR CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER, WHAT YOU TOLD HIM ABOUT WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS?
# 237 Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM?
# 238 A: THAT HE WAS ON A FLIGHT, HE WENT TO CHICAGO.
# 239 MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, WE HAVE PEOPLE'S -- (BRIEF PAUSE.)
# 240 Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. DO YOU SEE THE AREA THAT YOU HAVE EARLIER BEEN DISCUSSING CALLED THE BAR AREA?
# 242 Q: WOULD YOU PLEASE DIRECT THE LIGHT, SIR?
# 243 A: UH, GO STRAIGHT UP. THAT'S -- THAT'S THE SEATS. THAT'S THE BAR (INDICATING).
# 244 Q: OKAY. IS THAT WHERE YOU SAT?
# 245 A: I SAT IN THAT -- THAT -- NO. NEXT ONE. THAT ONE (INDICATING).
# 246 Q: YOU SAT IN THAT CHAIR?
# 247 A: YEAH. PRETTY POSITIVE THAT WAS THE CHAIR.
# 248 Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THAT'S WHERE DETECTIVE FUHRMAN ASKED YOU TO SIT EARLIER?
# 250 Q: WHERE DID DETECTIVE VANNATTER COME AND SIT WHEN HE SPOKE TO YOU?
# 251 A: NEXT TO IT. THE -- THAT ONE (INDICATING).
# 252 Q: NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU TOLD HIM THAT THE DEFENDANT WAS IN CHICAGO?
# 254 Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU TELL DETECTIVE VANNATTER WHAT TIME THE DEFENDANT LEFT?
# 256 Q: OKAY. AND WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM?
# 257 A: THAT HE WAS GOING TO -- TOOK A LIMO TO THE AIRPORT AND I THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT 11:15.
# 258 Q: SO YOU TOLD DETECTIVE VANNATTER WHAT TIME --
# 260 Q: -- THE DEFENDANT LEFT. AT THE TIME THAT YOU HAD THIS DISCUSSION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER, WAS MARK FUHRMAN STANDING NEAR YOU?
# 262 Q: WHAT ELSE DID YOU TELL DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
# 263 A: THAT I ALSO TOLD HIM ABOUT THE NOISES, THE THUMPS THAT I HEARD.
# 264 Q: DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT TIME YOU HEARD THE THUMPS?
# 266 Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM?
# 267 A: THAT I HEARD THE THUMPS AT ABOUT 10:40, THAT I WAS ON THE PHONE AT THE TIME, I THOUGHT THERE WAS AN EARTHQUAKE, MY PICTURE MOVED.
KEY QUOTE # 268 Q: AND AT THAT TIME, WERE YOU AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER ALONE IN THE BAR AREA?
# 269 A: YES. MY BACK WAS -- I WAS FACING THE FRONT OF THE BAR AND I COULDN'T SEE BEHIND ME, BUT I BELIEVE WE WERE JUST THE TWO IN THAT AREA. I'M PRETTY POSITIVE.
# 270 Q: ALL RIGHT. WHILE YOU WERE SEATED AT THE BAR AREA WITH PHIL, TOWARDS THE END OF THAT CONVERSATION, DID SOMETHING OCCUR THAT DREW YOUR ATTENTION?
# 272 Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT?
# 273 A: UMM, ARNELLE HAD -- HAD SCREAMED.
# 274 Q: WHAT DID SHE SCREAM?
# 275 A: SHE SAID, "OH, MY GOD."
# 276 Q: AND WHERE DID THAT SOUND APPEAR TO BE COMING FROM?
# 278 Q: ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR -- I KNOW IT'S NOT DEPICTED IN THE PHOTOGRAPH -- CAN YOU TELL US IN A GENERAL DIRECTION WHERE THE KITCHEN WOULD BE?
# 279 A: DO YOU KNOW THE SEAT THAT I WAS IN?
# 280 Q: YEAH. LET'S START THERE, DIRECT THE DOT.
# 281 A: GO TO YOUR RIGHT ALL THE WAY. YEAH, PAST -- BUT IT'S OFF -- BUT IT WOULD BE IN THERE, PAST THERE, YEAH (INDICATING).
# 282 Q: OKAY. AND CAN YOU WALK FROM THE BAR AREA INTO THE KITCHEN AREA? IS THERE LIKE A HALLWAY THERE?
# 284 Q: YOU HEARD HER SCREAM, "OH, MY GOD," AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED?
# 285 A: AND I WAS SITTING THERE AND I KNEW SOMETHING WAS VERY WRONG.
# 286 Q: THEN WHAT HAPPENED?
# 287 A: AND I BELIEVE THE DETECTIVE FINISHED THE INTERVIEW WITH ME AND HE HAD TOLD ME WHAT HAD HAPPENED.
# 288 Q: OKAY. AND WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
# 289 A: THAT NICOLE WAS MURDERED.
KEY QUOTE # 290 Q: AND WHEN -- AFTER HE TOLD YOU THAT -- WELL, AT THE TIME THAT HE TOLD YOU THAT, WAS IT JUST, AGAIN, YOU AND HE ALONE IN THE BAR AREA?
# 291 A: I THINK AT THAT MOMENT, WE WERE ALONE AND I THINK THEN ARNELLE WAS IN -- WALKING IN ALSO.
# 292 Q: AS HE WAS TELLING YOU?
# 294 Q: AND WHERE DID SHE WALK IN FROM? WHAT DIRECTION?
# 295 A: THAT -- WHERE -- THE KITCHEN AREA BACK INTO THE BAR AREA.
# 296 Q: OKAY. AND THEN AFTER ARNELLE CAME INTO THE BAR AREA, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
# 297 A: WE HUGGED AND --
# 299 A: UH, WENT INTO THE KITCHEN AREA.
# 300 Q: WHO WENT INTO THE KITCHEN AREA?
# 301 A: I THINK WE ALL WERE IN THERE. THE -- IN THE KITCHEN AREA FROM WHAT I REMEMBER.
# 302 Q: WHEN YOU SAY "WE ALL," WHO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
# 303 A: WELL, I WENT WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER IN THERE AND I THINK DETECTIVE LANGE WAS IN THERE AND ARNELLE WAS THERE AND THEN THERE WAS A PHONE CALL THAT WAS GOING TO BE MADE.
# 304 Q: OKAY. YOU INDICATED EARLIER THERE WAS A FOURTH DETECTIVE WHOSE NAME YOU DO NOT RECALL. WAS HE IN THERE AS WELL?
# 306 Q: DID YOU SEE DETECTIVE FUHRMAN IN THERE AT THAT TIME?
# 307 A: THE OTHER TWO, I -- I CAN'T BE A HUNDRED PERCENT POSITIVE IF HE WAS IN THERE OR NOT. IT -- IT SEEMED --
# 308 Q: WELL, WHO DO YOU RECALL SEEING IN THE KITCHEN, MR. KAELIN?
# 309 A: I RECALL DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND ARNELLE AND MYSELF AND DETECTIVE LANGE, AND THAT'S I'M SURE ON, AND I THINK THE OTHERS TOO, BUT I'M NOT SURE.
# 310 Q: OKAY. AND WHO WAS MAKING THE PHONE CALL THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?
# 311 A: I -- ARNELLE WAS MAKING THE CALL.
# 312 Q: SO YOU SAW HER WITH A PHONE IN HER HAND DID YOU?
# 314 Q: AND DID YOU HEAR HER SPEAK TO SOMEONE?
# 315 A: SHE WAS TRYING TO, YES.
# 316 MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE HERE A PHOTOGRAPH I WOULD ASK BE MARKED PEOPLE'S --
# 317 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) # 318 MS. CLARK: PEOPLE'S 141. IT WAS CORRECTED APPARENTLY.
# 319 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
# 320 (PEO'S 141 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) # 321 Q: BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 141, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US -- YOU CAN LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT AREA?
# 322 A: YES. IT'S THE, UH, KITCHEN.
# 323 Q: THAT'S THE KITCHEN AREA, SIR?
# 325 Q: ALL RIGHT. WHERE IS THE PHONE THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?
# 326 A: OKAY. DO YOU HAVE THE, UH, LIGHT?
# 328 A: STRAIGHT AGAINST THE WALL.
# 330 A: GO STRAIGHT RIGHT -- NOW, RIGHT THERE, NOW DOWN AND TO YOUR RIGHT. RIGHT THERE (INDICATING).
# 331 Q: ALL RIGHT. THAT'S THE PHONE RIGHT THERE?
# 332 A: YOU'RE ON THE PHONE, YES.
# 333 Q: ALL RIGHT. AND YOU SAW ARNELLE ON THAT PHONE?
# 335 Q: OKAY. AND AT SOME POINT -- DID SHE REMAIN ON THE PHONE AND HAVE A CONVERSATION?
# 337 Q: WHAT DID SHE DO?
# 338 A: SHE STARTED CRYING.
# 339 Q: AND THEN WHAT DID SHE DO?
# 340 A: SHE HANDED THE PHONE I BELIEVE TO DETECTIVE LANGE.
# 341 Q: AND WHAT DID DETECTIVE LANGE DO?
# 342 A: HE GOT ON THE PHONE AND SAID WHAT HAPPENED TO I BELIEVE NICOLE'S MOTHER.
# 343 Q: NOW, DID YOU REMAIN IN THE KITCHEN AT THAT POINT?
# 344 A: YES. I WAS IN THE KITCHEN.
# 345 Q: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECALL SAYING ANYTHING TO PHIL VANNATTER AFTER THAT PHONE CALL WITH -- THAT ARNELLE AND DETECTIVE LANGE HAD WITH THE BROWN FAMILY?
# 348 A: I HAD MENTIONED TO HIM ABOUT THAT NOISE THAT I HEARD, THE THUMPS, IF IT MEANT ANYTHING.
# 349 Q: DID YOU ASK -- WHAT -- DID YOU ASK HIM ANYTHING ABOUT IT?
# 351 Q: WHAT DID YOU ASK?
# 352 A: I SAID, "DID YOU EVER CHECK ON THAT -- THAT NOISE I HEARD BEHIND THE WALL?"
# 353 Q: AND WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE?
# 354 A: HUH, LIKE SHRUG. HE REALLY DIDN'T ANSWER.
# 355 Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, AFTER THAT POINT, YOU REMAINED IN THE KITCHEN STILL?
# 357 Q: DID ANYONE EVER ASK YOU ABOUT -- AT THAT POINT WHILE YOU WERE IN THE KITCHEN ABOUT THE WHITE FORD BRONCO?
# 359 Q: AND WHAT DID THEY ASK YOU? WHO FIRST OF ALL?
# 360 A: I THOUGHT IT WAS DETECTIVE VANNATTER.
# 361 Q: DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
# 363 Q: AND WHAT DID HE ASK YOU?
# 364 A: IF THERE'S KEYS TO THE BRONCO.
# 365 Q: AND WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE?
# 366 A: I SAID, "YEAH, I THINK THERE'S KEYS SOMEWHERE," AND I STARTED TO LOOK FOR KEYS.
# 367 Q: AND YOU DID LOOK FOR KEYS THEN?
# 369 Q: DID YOU FIND ANY?
# 370 A: I FOUND THE KEY -- NOT THE KEY, BUT I FOUND KEYS, NOT THE BRONCO KEYS.
# 371 Q: YOU NEVER FOUND ANY KEYS TO THE BRONCO?
# 373 Q: DID ANYONE HELP YOU LOOK FOR KEYS FOR THE BRONCO?
# 374 A: I THOUGHT I WAS DOING IT ON MY OWN. ARNELLE MIGHT HAVE, BUT I KNOW I WAS. BUT JUST -- I WAS GOING THROUGH SOME DRAWERS.
# 375 Q: ANYBODY EVER FIND KEYS TO THE BRONCO?
# 376 A: NO, NOT WHEN I WAS THERE.
# 377 Q: AT SOME POINT, DO YOU RECALL SEEING SIDNEY AND JUSTIN AT THE HOUSE?
# 379 Q: AND WHERE DID YOU SEE THEM?
# 380 A: THEY WERE IN THE KITCHEN. THEY SHOWED UP IN THE KITCHEN.
# 381 Q: DID -- THE FIRST -- WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU SAW THEM? BEFORE OR AFTER YOU SPOKE TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER AT THE BAR AREA?
# 382 A: IT WAS AFTER THAT.
# 383 Q: WHAT DID YOU DO, IF ANYTHING, WITH THE CHILDREN IN THE KITCHEN?
# 384 A: JUSTIN STARTED PLAYING VIDEO GAMES ON THE T.V. THAT'S TO THE SIDE. YOU CAN'T SEE IN THE SHOT, BUT IT'S RIGHT TO THE -- BY THE -- THE CHAIRS THERE, THE -- UH, I DON'T KNOW -- TO THE RIGHT OF THE PICTURE. YOU CAN'T SEE IT -- BACK OF THE T.V. IT HOOKS UP TO THE VIDEO GAMES. AND SIDNEY WAS LYING ON THE LITTLE NOOK COUCH (INDICATING).
# 385 MS. CLARK: OKAY. SHOWING PEOPLE'S 142, YOUR HONOR.
(PEO'S 142 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) Q: BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 142, MR. KAELIN, CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER YOU CAN SEE THE TELEVISION THAT YOU'VE EARLIER DESCRIBED?
# 386 A: YES, YOU CAN. AND IT'S --
# 387 Q: AND WHERE IS IT?
# 388 A: IT'S RIGHT -- YES. STRAIGHT -- RIGHT THERE (INDICATING).
# 389 Q: NOW, AT SOME POINT -- HOW ARE YOU DRESSED AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME, IF YOU RECALL?
# 390 A: I THINK I HAD JUST A SHIRT ON AND I THINK PAJAMA BOTTOMS. I'M PRETTY SURE.
# 393 Q: DID YOU ASK FOR PERMISSION TO CHANGE THOSE CLOTHES AT ANY POINT?
# 395 Q: AND WAS THAT BEFORE OR AFTER THE CHILDREN -- YOU SAW THE CHILDREN IN THE KITCHEN?
# 396 A: I THINK IT WAS WHILE THEY WERE THERE THAT I WENT TO MY ROOM AND CHANGED.
# 397 Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER A POLICE OFFICER ESCORTED YOU TO YOUR ROOM OR NOT?
# 399 Q: AND -- BUT DID YOU GO BACK TO YOUR ROOM AND CHANGE CLOTHES?
# 401 Q: AFTER YOU CHANGED CLOTHES, WHERE DID YOU GO?
# 402 A: BACK INTO THE KITCHEN AREA.
# 403 Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOU GOT BACK INTO THE KITCHEN AREA?
# 404 A: I WAS PLAYING WITH JUSTIN AND SIDNEY WAS LYING ON THE -- THE LITTLE -- THERE'S A COUCH OVER HERE ALSO THAT SHE WAS LYING ON TRYING TO SLEEP (INDICATING).
# 405 Q: OKAY. WHAT HAPPENED -- AT SOME POINT, WERE YOU ASKED TO LEAVE THE PROPERTY?
# 407 Q: HOW LONG AFTER CHANGING CLOTHES WAS THAT?
# 408 A: I THINK, UH, MAYBE 10 MINUTES.
# 409 Q: WHEN YOU LEFT -- AND DID YOU LEAVE THE PROPERTY THEN WHEN YOU WERE ASKED TO LEAVE?
# 410 A: YES. I WENT ON ASHFORD.
# 411 Q: DID YOU LEAVE ON YOUR OWN OR WERE YOU ESCORTED OUT?
# 413 Q: BY A POLICE OFFICER?
# 415 Q: WERE YOU WARNED OF ANYTHING AS YOU WERE ESCORTED OUT OF THE PROPERTY?
# 417 Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT?
# 418 A: THEY SAID BE CAREFUL OF THE BLOOD.
KEY QUOTE # 419 Q: WERE THEY POINTING TO SOME AREAS ON THE GROUND?
# 420 A: WELL, THEY WERE JUST KIND OF WALKING ME, AND THEY DIDN'T POINT. THEY WERE WALKING WITH ME AND THEY SAID BE CAREFUL OF THE BLOOD, AND I LOOKED DOWN.
# 421 Q: AND DID YOU SEE BLOOD?
# 423 Q: OKAY. WHERE WAS THAT?
# 424 A: IN THE FOYER, PICTURE WE SAW EARLIER OF THE FRONT DOOR.
# 425 Q: LET ME COME BACK TO THAT. AFTER YOU WERE ESCORTED OUT, WHERE WERE YOU ESCORTED OUT TO?
# 426 A: OKAY. I WENT OUT THE DRIVEWAY --
# 428 A: -- AND THEY ASKED ME TO WAIT ON ASHFORD. THEY SAID THAT, UH, TWO, UH, UNIFORMED POLICE WOULD TAKE ME TO A STATION.
# 429 Q: AND DID YOU GO OUT TO ASHFORD AND WAIT?
# 431 Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOU WAITED ON ASHFORD?
# 432 A: I WAITED FOR SOMEONE TO PICK ME UP.
# 434 A: THE ONES THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO DIDN'T. TWO OTHERS WERE THERE THAT TOOK ME.
# 435 Q: AND WHERE DID THEY TAKE YOU TO?
# 436 A: UMM, I DON'T KNOW THE STATION, WHAT IT'S CALLED. I THINK IT'S -- IT'S PRETTY NEAR THE, UH -- IT'S LIKE A 10-MINUTE DRIVE I THINK, WHATEVER STATION IT'S CALLED. I THINK IT'S PAST BUNDY.
# 438 A: YOU FOLLOW BUNDY DOWN. I DON'T KNOW THE --
# 439 Q: ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU HAVE A -- DID YOU THEN GIVE AN INTERVIEW TO THE POLICE OFFICERS AT THE STATION?
# 441 Q: DO YOU RECALL WHO THOSE OFFICERS WERE?
# 444 A: BRIAN CARR AND PAUL TIPPIN.
# 445 Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TELL THEM?
# 446 A: I WENT OVER EVERYTHING THAT I HAD SAID BEFORE.
# 447 Q: WHAT YOU'VE TOLD US HERE TODAY?
# 449 Q: CAN YOU RECALL WHETHER WHEN YOU WERE IN THE ROOM WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YOU HAD THAT FIRST -- THAT WAS THE FIRST POLICE OFFICER I GUESS YOU SPOKE TO; IS THAT RIGHT?
# 451 Q: DO YOU -- DID YOU TELL HIM -- WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT THE THUMPS, DID YOU DESCRIBE FOR HIM WHAT YOU HEARD AND WHAT YOU SAW IN YOUR ROOM?
# 453 Q: WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM IN THAT REGARD?
# 454 A: I WAS -- I WAS EXCITED. I SAID AND THEN I HEARD THESE THUMPS, THERE WAS LIKE THREE THUMPS AND MY PICTURE MOVED, I THOUGHT WE HAD AN EARTHQUAKE.
# 455 Q: UH-HUH. DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT YOU THOUGHT AT -- ABOUT THAT, WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAD AN EARTHQUAKE?
# 456 A: THAT IT COULD BE SOMETHING, SOMEBODY MIGHT HAVE BEEN AROUND.
# 457 Q: AND THEN WHEN YOU -- YOU INDICATE THAT AS YOU WERE LEAVING THE HOUSE THAT MORNING, THE POLICE OFFICERS ESCORTED YOU OUT OF THE HOUSE?
# 459 Q: DID THEY HAVE A HAND ON YOUR ARM?
# 460 A: I THINK SO. I THINK THEY WERE JUST WALKING ME OUT.
# 461 Q: UH-HUH. AND DID THEY STEER YOU AROUND THOSE BLOOD DROPS YOU DESCRIBED?
# 462 A: I STEERED MYSELF. I SAW AND I DIDN'T STEP NEAR.
# 463 MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 112.
# 464 Q: BY MS. CLARK: THAT'S THE FOYER AREA?
# 466 Q: AND IS THAT -- YOU INDICATED YOU SAW BLOOD DROPS IN THAT AREA?
# 468 MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 121.
# 469 Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID IT LOOK LIKE THAT (INDICATING)?
# 471 Q: NOW, DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE SPEAKING TO THE DETECTIVES THAT EARLY -- THOSE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF JUNE THE 13TH, SIR, CAN YOU DESCRIBE YOUR STATE OF MIND, YOUR MENTAL CONDITION?
# 472 A: TIRED, DISORIENTATED, SHOOK UP.
# 473 Q: HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK TO THE POLICE OFFICERS AT THE STATION, THE WEST L.A. STATION?
# 474 A: THE ACTUAL TALKING -- UH, I WAS THERE A LONG TIME. THE ACTUAL TALK, I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG IT WAS -- YOU KNOW, HOUR HERE, THEN WAITED AGAIN LIKE ANOTHER HOUR OR TWO AND THEN THEY CAME BACK AND IT SEEMED LIKE ABOUT ANOTHER HOUR. I WAS THERE A LONG TIME.
# 475 Q: DO YOU RECALL APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU COMPLETED THAT INTERVIEW?
# 476 A: I THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT 4:00 O'CLOCK.
# 477 Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO THEN?
# 478 A: I -- THEY TOOK ME -- THEY -- I SUPPOSEDLY WAS GOING TO GO BACK TO THE HOUSE. THEY SAID PROBABLY NOT A GOOD IDEA TO, BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW THERE WAS ALL NEWS CAMERA THERE.
# 479 Q: YOU WERE GOING TO GO BACK TO ROCKINGHAM WERE YOU?
# 482 A: AND THEN THEY ASKED ME IF I WANTED TO BE DROPPED OFF SOMEWHERE INSTEAD.
# 483 Q: AND WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE?
# 485 Q: AND WHERE DID YOU GO?
# 486 A: TO A FRIEND'S HOUSE.
# 487 Q: AND WHO WAS THAT FRIEND?
# 489 Q: WHEN YOU GOT TO GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE, DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
# 491 Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM?
# 492 MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. HEARSAY.
# 493 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 494 Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED THE NIGHT BEFORE?
# 495 MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION.
# 496 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 497 Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID GRANT CRAMER ASK YOU ANY QUESTIONS?
# 498 A: GRANT WAS DOING A LOT OF TALKING. HE WAS TALKING, YES, VERY EXCITED.
# 499 Q: OKAY. DID YOU TALK BACK?
# 501 Q: AND WHAT WAS THE SUBJECT MATTER OF YOUR CONVERSATION?
# 502 MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION.
# 503 THE COURT: HEARSAY?
# 505 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 506 MS. CLARK: MAY I APPROACH?
# 507 THE COURT: YES, WITH THE REPORTER, PLEASE.