Marcia Clark continues her direct examination of houseguest Brian 'Kato' Kaelin, who describes hearing three loud thumps on the wall behind his room at approximately 10:40–10:45 PM on June 12, 1994 — thumps forceful enough to shift a framed picture on his wall. Kaelin recounts twice venturing down the dark south pathway with a pen-sized flashlight, both times stopping short of the area directly behind his room due to fear. He also describes discovering an unfamiliar dark knapsack near the Rolls Royce in the driveway, which OJ Simpson pointedly insisted on retrieving himself before departing in the limousine at approximately 11:15 PM.
# 1 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY. MR. BRIAN KAELIN IS ON THE WITNESS STAND UNDER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MISS CLARK. GOOD MORNING AGAIN, MR. KAELIN.
# 2 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: GOOD MORNING.
# 3 THE COURT: YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH, SIR. MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CONTINUE.
# 4 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
# 5 Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU INDICATED THAT YOU PLACED A PHONE CALL TO RACHEL FERRARA AT ABOUT 10:10 P.M.
# 7 Q: AND THAT DURING THAT PHONE CALL YOU WERE SEATED ON THE BED WITH YOUR BACK UP AGAINST THAT HEADBOARD?
# 9 Q: DURING THAT PHONE CALL, SIR, DID SOMETHING UNUSUAL OCCUR?
# 11 Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT?
# 12 A: I HEARD A THUMPING NOISE.
# 13 Q: HOW MANY THUMPS DID YOU HEAR?
# 14 MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, LEADING.
# 15 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: OVERRULED.
# 16 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: THREE.
# 17 Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE FOR US HOW LOUD IT WAS?
# 22 A: THUMP, THUMP, THUMP. (WITNESS POUNDS ON WITNESS STAND).
KEY QUOTE # 23 Q: WHERE DID THAT NOISE SEEM TO BE COMING FROM?
# 24 A: FROM THE BACK OF THE WALL.
# 25 Q: FROM BEHIND YOU WHERE YOU WERE SITTING?
# 26 A: RIGHT, FROM BEHIND THE WALL FROM WHERE I WAS SITTING.
# 27 Q: DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING OCCUR IN YOUR ROOM AS A RESULT OF THOSE THUMPS ON THE WALL?
# 30 A: THERE IS A PICTURE THAT MOVED.
# 31 Q: OKAY. AND WHERE IS THAT PICTURE, SIR?
# 32 A: IT IS NOT IN THIS SHOT.
# 33 Q: CAN YOU TELL US, GIVE US SOME IDEA?
# 34 A: DO YOU WANT THE ARROW TO MOVE?
# 35 Q: NO, THAT ARROW CAN STAY THERE.
# 36 A: OKAY. IT WOULD BE -- SEE THIS -- NOT -- UMM, NEXT TO THE BED, THE DRESSER.
# 38 A: IF YOU GO STRAIGHT ABOVE IT, BY THE HEADBOARD BOARD, IT IS RIGHT ABOVE THAT ON THE --
# 39 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) # 40 MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. LET ME SHOW A PHOTOGRAPH TO COUNSEL FOR A MOMENT.
# 41 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) # 42 MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH THAT HAS BEEN SHOWN TO COUNSEL. NEXT IN ORDER, PEOPLE'S 140.
# 43 THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 140.
# 44 (PEO'S 140 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) # 45 Q: BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 140, SIR, CAN YOU PLEASE LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR?
# 46 A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) YES.
# 47 Q: CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU SEE THE LOCATION WHERE THE PICTURE WAS?
# 48 A: YEAH. THE PICTURE IS RIGHT THERE.
# 49 Q: WAS THAT THE PICTURE THAT WAS ON YOUR WALL ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH?
# 50 A: I THINK THAT IS THE SAME PICTURE.
# 51 Q: AND WAS IT IN THAT LOCATION?
# 53 MS. CLARK: OKAY. AND FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS GESTURING THERE IS ONLY ONE PICTURE ON HIS BEDROOM WALL.
# 55 Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT HAPPENED WITH THAT PICTURE WHEN THE THUMPS OCCURRED?
# 56 A: THE PICTURE TILTED FROM -- THAT WOULD BE RIGHT TO LEFT.
# 57 Q: THE PICTURE MOVED?
# 59 Q: AT THAT POINT THAT YOU HEARD THE THUMPS ON THE WALL, SIR, APPROXIMATELY HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN ON THE PHONE WITH RACHEL FERRARA?
# 60 A: ABOUT A HALF HOUR.
# 61 Q: AND SO APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU HEARD THE THUMPS ON THE WALL?
# 63 Q: IS THAT EXACT, 10:40?
# 64 A: WELL, WHAT I REMEMBER. I DIDN'T LOOK AT THE CLOCK, BUT AROUND 10:40.
# 65 Q: DO YOU RECALL PREVIOUSLY TESTIFYING THAT IT WAS 10:40 TO 10:45?
# 67 Q: OKAY. AND IS THAT CORRECT?
# 69 Q: SO AT APPROXIMATELY 10:40 TO 10:45, WHEN YOU HEARD THE THUMPS AND YOU SAW THE PICTURE MOVE, WHAT DID YOU DO?
# 70 A: WELL, I WAS ON THE PHONE STILL AND I WAS TALKING TO RACHEL AND I THOUGHT -- I SAID TO RACHEL -- I ASKED HER, "DID WE JUST HAVE AN EARTHQUAKE?"
# 71 Q: DID THOSE THUMPS ALARM YOU, SIR?
# 72 A: AFTER SHE SAID WE DIDN'T HAVE ONE, YES.
# 73 Q: AND WHY WERE YOU ALARMED?
# 74 A: WELL, IF IT WASN'T THAT, THEN I THOUGHT THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE BACK THERE.
# 75 Q: SOMEONE BACK THERE AND WHERE WOULD "THERE" BE?
# 76 A: "THERE" IS BEHIND THE WALL ON THE PATH THAT WE SHOWED BEFORE.
# 77 Q: AND THAT PATH THAT WE HAVE SHOWN BEFORE, THAT IS THE SOUTH PATHWAY THAT RUNS ALONG THE OUTSIDE OF YOUR EXTERIOR WALL?
# 79 MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S 68-A.
# 80 Q: BY MS. CLARK: IS THAT THE PATHWAY THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO?
# 82 Q: THAT YOU THOUGHT SOMEONE WAS ON WHEN YOU HEARD THE THUMPS?
# 84 Q: NOW, IF YOU WOULD, SIR --
# 85 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) # 86 Q: BY MS. CLARK: SEE THE AIR CONDITIONER YOU HAVE EARLIER IDENTIFIED, SIR --
# 88 Q: -- AS THE BACK OF THE ONE THAT GOES INTO YOUR ROOM. SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 129-B, CAN YOU TELL US WHERE ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH YOUR AIR CONDITIONER IS?
# 89 A: UMM, RIGHT IN FRONT OF THAT LAMP ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE BED.
# 90 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING TO A STANDING LAMP THAT WOULD BE AS YOU FACE THE BED, TO THE LEFT SIDE OF THE BED.
# 91 Q: AND IT IS THAT GRATED AREA RIGHT ABOVE THE LAMP?
# 93 Q: WHERE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THAT AIR CONDITIONER DID YOU HEAR THE SOUND OF THE THUMPS?
# 94 A: THE -- THE THUMPS CAME FROM BEHIND THE WALL. EXACTLY WHERE, I DON'T KNOW, BUT I KNOW IT WAS BEHIND THE WALL WITHIN, YOU KNOW, A FEW FEET OF THE AIR CONDITIONER.
# 95 Q: OKAY. AND IS THAT -- IS THAT WALL COVERING, IS THAT WOOD PANELING OR IS THAT WALLPAPER?
# 97 Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN RACHEL TOLD YOU THAT IT WAS NOT AN EARTHQUAKE, YOU BECAME ALARMED THINKING SOMEONE WAS BACK THERE. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
# 98 A: WELL, I WAS ON THE PHONE WITH HER AND I TOLD HER THAT I WAS GOING TO CHECK ON IT.
# 99 Q: AND WHAT -- HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK TO HER AFTER YOU HEARD THE THUMPS ON THE WALL?
# 100 A: YOU KNOW, TWO TO THREE MINUTES.
# 101 Q: AND WHEN YOU SAY YOU WERE GOING TO GO AND CHECK ON IT, WHAT DID YOU INTEND TO DO?
# 102 A: WELL, THAT -- SEE THE DRESSER RIGHT THERE NEXT TO THE BED? ON THE TOP DRAWER I HAVE LIKE A LITTLE LIGHT, FLASHLIGHT. I WAS GOING TO TAKE THAT LIGHT AND LOOK BEHIND THERE.
# 103 Q: LOOK BEHIND WHERE?
# 104 A: BEHIND THE PATH.
# 105 Q: THE PATH THAT YOU HAVE EARLIER IDENTIFIED?
# 107 Q: HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT GOING BACK THERE ONTO THAT LITTLE PATHWAY?
# 110 A: BECAUSE THERE COULD BE SOMEONE BACK THERE AND I JUST HAD A LITTLE FLASHLIGHT.
# 111 Q: OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THAT PATHWAY LIKE?
# 112 A: WELL, IT IS DARK AND THERE IS LEAVES. IT IS VERY NARROW.
# 113 Q: HOW WELL-LIT -- YOU SAID IT WAS DARK?
# 115 Q: AND YOU HAD -- WHAT WAS THE SIZE OF THAT FLASHLIGHT YOU HAD?
# 116 A: THIS SIZE, (INDICATING). IT WAS A LITTLE, YOU KNOW, THICKER AROUND, BUT IT WAS ABOUT THAT SAME LENGTH.
# 117 MS. CLARK: OKAY. FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS HOLDING UP A PEN.
# 119 Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. YOU DID NOT GO TO LOOK THROUGH THE BATHROOM WINDOW?
# 121 Q: YOUR INTENTION WAS TO GO AROUND TO THAT SOUTH PATHWAY?
# 123 Q: DID IT OCCUR TO YOU TO LOOK THROUGH THE BATHROOM WINDOW?
# 124 MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.
# 125 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 126 Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU CAN ANSWER.
# 127 A: NO, IT NEVER DID.
# 128 Q: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU TOLD RACHEL THAT YOU WERE GOING TO GO BACK THERE AND CHECK OUT THE NOISE?
# 130 Q: WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
# 131 A: OKAY. I HUNG UP THE PHONE AND I GOT THE FLASHLIGHT AND I WALKED THE PATHWAY, THE FRONT PATHWAY OUT OF MY FRONT DOOR, TO THE DRIVEWAY.
# 132 Q: OKAY. NOW, WHEN YOU WENT TO THE DRIVEWAY, YOU SAID YOU TOOK A PATHWAY AND THAT PATHWAY LED YOU THROUGH WHAT?
# 133 A: YOU GO BY THE POOL AND WHEN YOU GO BY THE POOL YOU GO TO THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE, THE SIDE THAT WOULD FACE ASHFORD, AND THEN YOU GO AND YOU HIT THE DRIVEWAY.
# 135 Q: BY MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO INDICATE ON PEOPLE'S 66 THE PATH THAT YOU TOOK FROM YOUR ROOM --
# 137 Q: -- AFTER YOU HEARD THE THUMPS?
# 138 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. YOU CAN STEP DOWN, MR. KAELIN.
# 139 (WITNESS COMPLIES.) # 140 Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, ON PEOPLE'S 66, PLEASE INDICATE THE PATH THAT YOU TOOK.
# 141 A: OKAY. I CAME OUT OF THE DOORS, STEPS UP THERE, AND THIS IS THE PATH, (INDICATING).
# 142 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS TRACING THE PATHWAY THAT GOES THROUGH THE LAWN AREA ALONG ASHFORD STREET.
# 143 THE COURT: YES, OUT TO THE DRIVEWAY.
# 144 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
# 145 Q: OKAY. YOU INDICATED THAT YOU HEARD THE THUMPS AT 9:40 TO 9:45?
# 146 A: NOT AT THAT TIME, NO. IT WAS 10:00.
# 147 Q: I'M SORRY, 10:40 TO 10:45. THANK YOU, SIR. AND YOU REMAINED ON THE PHONE WITH RACHEL FERRARA FOR ANOTHER TWO TO THREE MINUTES?
# 149 Q: SO AT APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU EXITED YOUR ROOM TO GO OUT TO THE PATHWAY?
# 150 A: SO IT WAS ABOUT TWO TO THREE MINUTES AFTER THAT TIME, 10:43, 10:44.
# 151 Q: OKAY. AND WHEN YOU WENT OUT TO THE PATHWAY, DID YOU -- WHERE YOU WENT OUT ON THE LAWN AREA?
# 152 A: YEAH, BUT I STAYED ON THIS PATH, (INDICATING).
# 153 Q: ALL RIGHT. WHAT DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU WERE ON THAT PATH?
# 156 A: NOTHING. I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING UNTIL I GOT TO THE DRIVEWAY.
# 157 Q: WHEN YOU GOT TO THE DRIVEWAY AREA WHERE THE PATH MEETS THE DRIVEWAY?
# 159 Q: WHAT DID YOU SEE?
# 160 A: I SAW A LIMOUSINE.
# 161 Q: WHERE WAS THAT LIMOUSINE?
# 162 A: IT WAS RIGHT BEHIND THE GATE ON ASHFORD, (INDICATING).
# 163 Q: WAS IT FACING INTO THAT ASHFORD GATE?
# 165 Q: COULD YOU SEE WHETHER ANYONE WAS INSIDE IT?
# 167 Q: DID YOU GO TO OPEN THE GATE FOR THE LIMOUSINE DRIVER?
# 169 Q: YOU CAN TAKE YOUR SEAT.
# 170 (WITNESS COMPLIES.) # 171 MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, CAN WE --
# 172 THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, MISS CLARK. DO WE NEED THE POSTER?
# 173 MS. CLARK: YES. WE ARE GOING TO USE IT AGAIN VERY SHORTLY.
# 175 Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHETHER OR NOT THE HEADLIGHTS OF THAT LIMOUSINE WERE ON?
# 176 A: I DON'T THINK THEY WERE ON.
# 177 Q: OKAY. SO WAS IT DARK IN THAT AREA?
# 179 Q: AND CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHETHER THE DRIVEWAY WAS DARK?
# 180 A: YES. THERE IS LITTLE LIGHTS BARELY THAT ARE VERY DIM. I THINK ONE OR TWO OF THOSE WERE ON BY THE DRIVEWAY, BUT DARK.
# 181 Q: WHERE ON THE DRIVEWAY ARE THOSE LIGHTS?
# 182 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) # 183 Q: CAN YOU SHOW US.
# 184 A: I THINK IF I REMEMBER THEY WERE LIKE HERE, (INDICATING), MAYBE ONE HERE, (INDICATING).
# 185 Q: OKAY. DO YOU WANT TO DO THAT ONE MORE TIME SO COUNSEL CAN SEE YOU.
# 186 A: I THINK I REMEMBER THAT LIKE HERE, A LAMP LIGHT HERE, AND MAYBE THERE, (INDICATING).
# 187 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS POINTED TO THE EDGE OF THE DRIVEWAY, THAT WOULD BE THE LEFT BORDER OF THE DRIVEWAY JUST BELOW THE TREE OVER WHICH IS WRITTEN "GATE CONTROL BOX," AND THEN BELOW THAT TO THE LEFT OF THE OTHER TREE ON THAT SAME EDGE OF THE DRIVEWAY, THE LEFT EDGE. GO AHEAD, YOU CAN SIT DOWN.
# 188 (WITNESS COMPLIES.) # 189 Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND -- SO YOU INDICATED THOSE ARE DIM LIGHTS?
# 191 Q: AND THE DRIVEWAY WAS BASICALLY IN DARKNESS?
# 193 Q: AND YOU INDICATED YOU DID NOT LET THE LIMOUSINE DRIVER IN?
# 196 A: I THOUGHT EVERYTHING WAS TAKEN CARE OF. I DIDN'T THINK OF -- OF LETTING HIM IN BECAUSE HE COULD GET A BUZZ IN.
# 197 Q: WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU THOUGHT IT WAS TAKEN CARE OF?
# 198 A: WELL, I -- I -- MY PHONE DOESN'T RING TO THE GATE, SO I THOUGHT, IF ANYTHING, THE LIMO GUY WOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO, WHAT WAS GOING ON. I DIDN'T KNOW. I THOUGHT HE WAS IN.
# 199 Q: DID YOU THINK THE DEFENDANT WAS GOING TO LET HIM IN?
# 200 MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION.
# 201 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: YES.
# 202 MR. SHAPIRO: CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
# 203 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. THE JURY IS TO DISREGARD.
# 204 MS. CLARK: I'M ASKING FOR HIS STATE OF MIND, YOUR HONOR.
# 205 THE COURT: CALLS FOR SPECULATION, DID HE THINK THAT THIS DEFENDANT WAS GOING TO DO SOMETHING. THAT IS CALLING FOR SPECULATION. PROCEED.
# 206 Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO US WHY YOU DID NOT LET THE LIMO DRIVER IN?
# 207 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) # 208 Q: WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT? WHAT LED YOU NOT TO LET HIM IN?
# 209 A: BECAUSE I THOUGHT SOMEONE HAD TALKED TO HIM AND THAT IS WHY HE WAS OUT THERE. THERE WAS A REASON THAT HE WAS WAITING THERE. I DIDN'T -- YOU KNOW, I -- I DIDN'T KNOW WHY HE WASN'T IN, BUT I DIDN'T QUESTION IT.
# 210 Q: DID YOU EXPECT -- WHAT WERE YOU EXPECTING?
# 211 MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.
# 212 THE COURT: GOES TO HIS SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT. OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.
# 213 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: OH, THERE IS A PHONE, SO IF THERE WAS A LIMO DRIVER THE GATE WOULD OPEN UP, HE WOULD BE BUZZED IN.
# 214 Q: DID YOU THINK THE DEFENDANT WAS HOME?
# 215 MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.
# 216 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 217 MR. SHAPIRO: CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
# 218 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 219 Q: BY MS. CLARK: ANSWER.
# 221 THE COURT: NEXT QUESTION.
# 222 Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU THINK YOU SAW THE LIMO DRIVER -- EXCUSE ME -- THE LIMOUSINE PARKED AT THE ASHFORD GATE?
# 224 Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU PASSED BY THE BACK OF THE HOUSE TO GO OUT ONTO THAT LAWN AREA AND TAKE THAT PATH DOWN TO THE DRIVEWAY, DID YOU NOTICE WHETHER THERE WERE ANY LIGHTS ON IN THE HOUSE?
# 225 A: UMM, I THOUGHT THE LIGHTS WERE ON UPSTAIRS AND NOT DOWN, IF I REMEMBER.
# 226 Q: DID IT SEEM TO BE DARK DOWNSTAIRS?
# 228 Q: AND YOU THOUGHT --
# 229 A: TO MY RECOLLECTION IT WAS DARK.
# 230 Q: YOU THOUGHT THERE WAS A LIGHT ON UPSTAIRS?
# 232 Q: LET ME BACK UP FOR A MINUTE. YOU INDICATED THAT YOU HEARD THE THUMPS ON THE WALL AT APPROXIMATELY 10:40 TO 10:45. BEFORE HEARING THE THUMPS YOU WERE TALKING ON THE PHONE TO RACHEL?
# 234 Q: AFTER HEARING THE THUMPS, WERE YOU STILL TALKING ON THE PHONE TO RACHEL?
# 236 Q: WERE YOU LISTENING TO HEAR FOOTSTEPS AT EITHER TIME?
# 238 Q: DO YOU KNOW WHETHER YOU ARE ABLE TO HEAR FOOTSTEPS FROM INSIDE YOUR ROOM IF SOMEONE IS WALKING ON THE SOUTH PATHWAY?
# 239 A: I DON'T. I DON'T THINK SO.
# 240 THE COURT: MISS CLARK, DO WE NEED 66 ANY MORE?
# 241 MS. CLARK: WE DO. RIGHT NOW.
# 242 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
# 243 Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU SAW THE LIMOUSINE PARKED AT THE ASHFORD GATE?
# 245 Q: YOU DID NOT LET THE LIMO DRIVER IN. WHERE DID YOU GO? WHAT DID YOU DO?
# 246 A: I CHECKED ON THE NOISE.
# 247 Q: WHERE -- CAN YOU SHOW US ON THIS PEOPLE'S 66 --
# 249 Q: -- WHAT YOU DID?
# 250 A: OKAY. SO I HAD THE FLASHLIGHT AND THE LIMO WAS HERE, (INDICATING), SO I START WALKING THIS WAY, (INDICATING), AND I HAD THE LIGHT ON AND I WENT -- THERE IS A GATE HERE, (INDICATING), THAT IS -- I COULD PICK UP THE GATE. YOU CAN PICK IT UP, IT IS NOT WORKING, SO I LEANED IT AGAINST THE TREE AND I WENT DOWN JUST A BIT -- THE PEN LIGHT -- THE LIGHT WAS PRETTY DIM. I LOOKED A LITTLE BIT AND THEN I CAME BACK.
# 251 MS. CLARK: OKAY. FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS INDICATED HE WALKED SOUTH ON THE DRIVEWAY OVER TO THE GARAGE AREA, MADE A LEFT AT THE CORNER OF THE GARAGE AND WALKED IN ON THAT SOUTH PATHWAY A SHORT DISTANCE.
# 253 Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. AS FAR AS YOU GOT ON THAT SOUTH PATHWAY, SIR, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE AREA -- THE GROUND AREA AROUND THE AIR CONDITIONER IN YOUR ROOM?
# 255 Q: AND WHY DID YOU STOP ON THE PATHWAY WHERE YOU DID?
# 256 A: I JUST DID. I COULDN'T SEE. I WAS -- I JUST STOPPED.
# 258 A: YOU KNOW, I WAS SCARED, BUT -- THAT IS IT.
# 259 Q: YOU WERE SCARED?
# 261 Q: OKAY. AND SO YOU BACKED OUT AGAIN?
# 263 Q: WHERE DID YOU GO THEN?
# 264 A: I WENT BACK OUT.
# 266 A: AND THE LIMO WAS STILL THERE AND I THOUGHT MAYBE I SHOULD LET THIS GUY IN, SO I WENT TO THE GATE CONTROL BOX, THERE IS A BUTTON, PRESSED AND IT OPENS UP.
# 267 Q: OKAY. SO YOU WALKED DOWN THE DRIVEWAY AROUND THE GARAGE TO THE SOUTH PATHWAY, CAME BACK OUT, WALKED BACK UP THE DRIVEWAY AND THE LIMO DRIVER -- THE LIMOUSINE WAS STILL OUTSIDE THE ASHFORD GATE?
# 269 Q: WHEN YOU SAID YOU WENT TO THE GATE CONTROL BOX, YOU POINTED TO AN AREA ON PEOPLE'S 66. IS THAT WHERE IT IS INDICATED BY THAT TREE?
# 271 Q: AND THEN DID THE GATE OPEN?
# 273 Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
# 274 A: OKAY. THE GATE OPENED AND HE DROVE IN AND THERE WAS A DOG AND I TOLD HIM TO WATCH IT, AND CHACHI, THE DOG, WENT HERE, (INDICATING), AND THE LIMO DRIVER PARKED HERE, (INDICATING).
# 275 Q: CHACHI THE DOG, WHO IS THAT?
# 276 A: CHACHI IS A CHOW.
# 279 Q: AND WHO DOES HE BELONG TO?
# 281 Q: AND WHEN THE LIMO DRIVER PULLED UP, WHERE WAS CHACHI?
# 282 A: CHACHI WAS KIND OF LIKE LAYING RIGHT HERE SORT OF BY THE BOX THAT HE COULD HAVE BEEN HIT, SO I SAID, "CHACHI, MOVE, MOVE."
# 283 Q: SO WHEN THE LIMO DRIVER PULLED IN, CHACHI WAS STILL LYING THERE ON THE DRIVEWAY BY THE GATE CONTROL BOX?
# 285 Q: YOU HAD TO GET HIM TO MOVE?
# 289 Q: DID HE GET EXCITED?
# 291 Q: WHERE DID YOU PUT HIM?
# 292 A: HE GOES IN THIS SPOT. HE KIND OF LIKE LAYS HERE.
# 293 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS INDICATING THE CORNER OF GRASS WHERE THE DRIVEWAY MEETS THE PATH GOING THROUGH THE ASHFORD SIDE OF THE LAWN.
# 294 Q: AND WHERE DID THE LIMO DRIVER GO?
# 295 A: RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING).
# 296 Q: TO THE FRONT DOOR AREA?
# 298 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING TO THE AREA OF THE DRIVEWAY IN FRONT OF THE ENTRANCE.
# 299 Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
# 300 A: OKAY. THE LIMO DRIVER GOT OUT OF THE CAR. I'M PRETTY SURE I SAID HELLO, AND THE EXACT DIALOGUE, I DON'T KNOW, IT WAS --
# 301 Q: WAIT. WHY DON'T YOU TAKE YOUR SEAT, SIR.
# 302 (WITNESS COMPLIES.) # 303 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, DO WE NEED 66?
# 304 MS. CLARK: WE WILL AGAIN, BUT I WILL TAKE IT DOWN FOR NOW.
# 305 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
# 307 THE COURT: IF YOU WANT TO JUST LEAVE IT THERE, DOWN, SO I CAN SEE THE JURY AND COUNSEL.
# 308 MS. CLARK: SURE. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
# 309 Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU WENT AROUND -- WHEN YOU WENT AROUND THE SOUTH PATHWAY, YOU SAID YOU WENT DOWN THE DRIVEWAY AROUND THE GARAGE TO THAT SOUTH PATHWAY. WHY DID DO YOU THAT?
# 310 A: WHY DID I DO IT?
# 312 A: I WAS GOING TO INVESTIGATE THAT NOISE.
# 315 Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN THE LIMO DRIVER GOT OUT OF THE CAR, DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
# 317 Q: WHAT DID YOU SAY?
# 318 A: WELL, I KNOW I ASKED HIM ABOUT THE -- IF WE HAD AN EARTHQUAKE, AND HE SAID, "NO, NOT THAT I AM AWARE OF. I HAVE BEEN SITTING THERE AND I DIDN'T FEEL ANYTHING MOVE," AND HE HAD MENTIONED THAT HE WAS COMING UP FROM REDONDO. AND I DON'T KNOW IF I -- WHAT I REMEMBER ABOUT -- IF I MENTIONED ABOUT OVERSLEEPING OR NOT. I SAID, "DID O.J. OVERSLEEP?" OR IF HE SAID IT, THAT HE OVERSLEPT, BUT THAT CAME UP AND I SAID, "OH, HE HAS GOT A FLIGHT TO CATCH."
# 321 Q: YOU WERE WORRIED THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE LATE OR WHAT?
# 322 A: YEAH, THAT HE WAS GOING TO MISS THE FLIGHT.
# 323 Q: NOW, AT THAT PARTICULAR POINT IN TIME WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF THE THUMPS? WAS THAT STILL IN YOUR MIND?
# 325 Q: HOW WERE YOU FEELING ABOUT THAT?
# 326 A: WELL, I WAS GOING TO CHECK ON IT AGAIN AND I FELT BETTER THAT THERE WAS SOMEONE THERE.
# 327 Q: WERE YOU STILL AFRAID OR NERVOUS OR EXCITED ABOUT THAT?
# 328 A: YES. IT WAS STILL THERE, BUT YOU KNOW, I HAD -- THE DRIVER WAS THERE. I MEAN, I WAS TELLING HIM ABOUT THE NOISE, THAT I WAS GOING TO CHECK ON IT AGAIN, AND I TOLD HIM I HEARD THIS NOISE AND I HEARD THIS THUMP AND I'M JUST GOING TO GO BACK THERE AND CHECK AGAIN.
# 329 Q: ALL RIGHT. AND SO AFTER YOU TOLD HIM ABOUT THAT, WHAT DID YOU DO?
# 330 A: WELL, I KNOW THAT AT ONE POINT ALSO THE GOLF BAG WAS OUT IN THE FRONT. I LOADED THAT FOR HIM IN THE TRUNK AND THEN I THINK I CHECKED ON THE NOISE.
# 331 Q: WHEN YOU SAY THERE WAS A GOLF BAG OUT FRONT, WHERE WAS IT?
# 332 A: THE DRIVEWAY WHERE HE PARKED.
# 334 A: RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE ENTRANCE. I DON'T WANT TO LIFT IT UP AGAIN, BUT IT WAS RIGHT IN FRONT. I WILL POINT IT OUT.
# 335 Q: WAS IT IN FRONT OF THE FRONT DOOR?
# 336 A: ABOUT TEN FEET IN FRONT OF THE FRONT DOOR, RIGHT WHERE THE DRIVEWAY WOULD START UP AGAIN.
# 337 Q: WHERE THE DRIVEWAY MEETS THE --
# 338 A: THE GRASS AND THE ENTRANCE -- I WILL HAVE TO POINT IT.
# 340 A: OKAY. THE DRIVEWAY HERE, THERE IS LIKE SEATS HERE, (INDICATING).
# 342 A: IT WOULD BE RIGHT HERE ON THE WALK, (INDICATING).
# 343 Q: IN BETWEEN THE SEATS THERE?
# 344 A: BETWEEN THE SEATS, RIGHT, LAYING THE SAME WAY.
# 345 Q: WHAT DID DO YOU WITH THOSE GOLF BAGS AFTER YOU LET THE LIMO DRIVER IN?
# 348 A: I PUT IT IN THE TRUNK.
# 349 Q: THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?
# 350 A: THEN I THINK I CHECKED ON THAT NOISE.
# 351 Q: CAN YOU SHOW US WHERE YOU WENT?
# 352 A: OKAY. I WENT FROM HERE AGAIN, (INDICATING).
# 353 MS. CLARK: THE WITNESS IS INDICATING OUT ON THE DRIVEWAY.
# 354 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: OUT ON THE DRIVEWAY AND I TOLD HIM ABOUT THE NOISE AND I TOLD CHACHI TO COME WITH ME. I SAID, "CHACHI, COME," AND HE DIDN'T, SO THAT WAS MY REACTION, TOO, SO I WENT BACK THERE.
# 355 Q: OKAY. YOU WENT DOWN BY THE GARAGE TO THE SAME AREA AGAIN?
# 356 (NODS HEAD UP AND DOWN.) # 358 A: YES, BUT I WENT A LITTLE FURTHER.
# 359 Q: CAN YOU SHOW US, SIR, HOW FAR YOU WENT THIS TIME?
# 360 A: OKAY. SO THE FIRST GATE WAS HERE, (INDICATING).
# 361 MS. CLARK: INDICATING --
# 362 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: KIND OF RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING). THERE IS A TREE THAT LEANS UP AGAINST SORT OF AND IT IS RIGHT THERE, (INDICATING).
# 363 MS. CLARK: THERE IS A PORTION ON THIS DIAGRAM WHERE THE GARAGE ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF IT IS EXTENDED WHEN YOU FIRST HIT THE GARAGE AREA. AND THE WITNESS IS INDICATING THE CORNER -- THE LEFT MOST -- THE RIGHT MOST CORNER OF THAT OUTCROPPING.
# 364 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: CORRECT.
# 365 Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. IS THAT WHERE THE FIRST GATE IS?
# 366 A: THAT IS THE FIRST GATE.
# 367 Q: OKAY. DID YOU GO THROUGH IT?
# 368 A: YES. THIS TIME I WENT A LITTLE BIT FURTHER AND THERE IS A SECOND GATE, BUT I DIDN'T GO BEYOND THAT.
# 369 Q: YOU WENT UP TO THE SECOND GATE?
# 370 A: I WENT UP TO ABOUT WHERE THE PODIUM IS, THE SECOND GATE, WITH THE FLASHLIGHT, ABOUT THREE FEET FROM THE SECOND GATE.
# 371 Q: THREE FEET BEHIND THE SECOND GATE YOU STOPPED?
# 373 Q: AND WHERE WOULD THAT BE ON THE DIAGRAM?
# 374 A: WELL -- WELL, IS THIS THE ENTIRE GARAGE AND THIS IS THE -- I GUESS THE SECOND GATE WOULD BE ABOUT HERE, (INDICATING).
# 375 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS INDICATING THE AREA WHERE THE MIDDLE YELLOW ARROW IS.
# 376 THE COURT: YES, SLIGHTLY TO THE LEFT.
# 378 Q: AS YOU FACE THE DIAGRAM TO THE RIGHT OF THE ARROW MARKED "B.K." AND YOU STOPPED THREE FEET BEFORE THAT?
# 379 A: YEAH, ABOUT THREE FEET IN FRONT OF IT AND SHINED THE LIGHT.
# 380 Q: AND WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE?
# 381 A: WELL, IT WAS DARK. I REALLY DIDN'T SEE MUCH. THE BEAM WAS -- YOU KNOW, I COULD SEE UP TO ABOUT WHERE MR. COCHRAN IS RIGHT THERE.
# 382 MS. CLARK: OKAY. FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS INDICATING TEN FEET.
# 383 MR. COCHRAN: LESS THAN TEN FEET.
# 385 MR. COCHRAN: SEVEN IS ALL RIGHT. SEVEN FEET. ABOUT SEVEN FEET.
# 386 MS. CLARK: COMPROMISE.
# 387 MR. COCHRAN: SEVEN, EIGHT FEET.
# 388 MS. CLARK: OKAY. FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS INDICATED APPROXIMATELY SEVEN TO EIGHT FEET IN DISTANCE.
# 389 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: RIGHT.
# 390 Q: BY MS. CLARK: SO WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE AREA OF THE WALKWAY THAT WAS RIGHT BEHIND YOUR ROOM?
# 392 Q: WAS THAT IN DARKNESS?
# 394 Q: AFTER YOU -- AND YOU STOPPED AT THAT POINT?
# 397 A: WELL, I FIGURED I WOULD JUST GIVE UP. I DIDN'T WANT TO INVESTIGATE ANY MORE.
# 399 A: I JUST -- I DID. I DON'T KNOW. I WAS SCARED, BUT NOT SCARED, AND THE LIMO DRIVER WAS THERE AND I JUST ENDED UP GOING BACK.
# 400 Q: WERE YOU STILL AFRAID OF WHAT MIGHT BE BACK THERE?
# 401 A: WELL, I WANTED TO STILL KNOW WHAT WAS BACK THERE. I WAS GOING TO INVESTIGATE MORE, BUT I STOPPED THERE AND I WAS KIND OF LIKE WITH THIS LOUSY FLASHLIGHT, AND IN MY MIND I WAS GOING TO SEE IF I HAD A BETTER FLASHLIGHT AND I WAS GOING TO GO UP TO THE DRIVER TO TALK TO HIM.
# 402 Q: SO DID YOU TURN BACK AT THAT POINT?
# 404 Q: WHERE DID YOU GO?
# 405 A: BACK TO THE FRONT. BACK, TURNED AROUND TO THE FRONT OF THE DRIVEWAY.
# 406 Q: AND YOU WENT WHERE?
# 407 A: I WENT TO THE LIMO, (INDICATING).
# 408 Q: OKAY. NOW, ON YOUR WAY BACK TO THE LIMO, DID ANYTHING DRAW YOUR ATTENTION?
# 411 A: I SAW THAT THERE WAS LIKE A KNAPSACK THAT WAS IN THE DRIVEWAY WHERE THE ROLLS ROYCE WAS PARKED.
KEY QUOTE # 412 Q: CAN YOU SHOW US WHERE YOU SAW THAT?
# 413 A: WELL, THIS IS -- THE SPOT OF THE ROLLS ROYCE, (INDICATING).
# 414 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS INDICATED THE SOUTHERN MOST PORTION OF THE DRIVEWAY THAT LEADS OUT TO ROCKINGHAM WHERE THERE IS AN INDENTATION.
# 415 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: YES.
# 416 Q: BY MS. CLARK: THAT IS WHERE THE ROLLS ROYCE WOULD BE PARKED?
# 417 A: YEAH. IT WOULD BE PARKED RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING).
# 418 Q: AND WHERE DID YOU SEE THIS SMALL -- THIS KNAPSACK?
# 419 A: IT WAS ON THE RIGHT BACK TAILLIGHT ON THE BOTTOM RIGHT WHERE THE GRASS KIND OF WOULD START UP.
# 420 MS. CLARK: I DON'T THINK THE JURY IS ABLE TO SEE.
# 421 Q: COULD YOU INDICATE AGAIN WHERE YOU SAW THAT KNAPSACK?
# 422 A: IT WAS KIND OF LIKE RIGHT HERE ON THE GRASS AND CEMENT -- AND THE DRIVEWAY, (INDICATING).
# 423 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) # 424 MS. CLARK: I WILL TELL YOU WHAT. I'M GOING TO ASK -- COULD WE GET THOSE ARROWS?
# 425 THE COURT: I GOT ARROWS AND I GOT DOTS. WHICH WOULD YOU LIKE?
# 426 MS. CLARK: HOW ABOUT A DOT.
# 427 THE COURT: WHAT COLOR DOT?
# 428 Q: BY MS. CLARK: HUM, WHAT COLOR WAS THE KNAPSACK, SIR?
# 429 A: I THOUGHT IT WAS BLACK WITH A BROWN LEATHER TO IT.
# 430 THE COURT: THE BEST I CAN DO IS BLUE.
# 431 MS. CLARK: OH, WELL. WE WILL TAKE RED. THANK YOU.
# 432 THE COURT: TAKE THEM ALL.
# 433 Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHY DON'T YOU PUT THE DOT ON THE DIAGRAM WHERE YOU RECALL SEEING THE KNAPSACK.
# 434 A: THIS DIAGRAM IS -- IT WOULD BE LIKE RIGHT THERE, (INDICATING).
# 435 Q: WAS IT ACTUALLY, SIR, ON THE DRIVEWAY RATHER THAN THE GRASS?
# 436 A: YEAH. WITH THIS DRAWING IT WAS CLOSER -- HERE IS THE ROLLS ROYCE, (INDICATING), AND THE LIGHT WOULD BE OUT, BUT IT WAS STICKING OUT. WITH THIS DRAWING IT IS KIND OF -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS EXACT, BUT IT WAS ON THE GRASS PART OF IT, BUT MORE ON THE CEMENT.
# 437 Q: OKAY. AND HOW BIG WAS THAT KNAPSACK?
# 438 A: IT WAS LIKE A COLLEGE KNAPSACK I THOUGHT.
# 439 Q: LIKE THE SIZE OF A BOOK BAG?
# 440 A: UMM, A LITTLE -- KIND OF LIKE THAT, (INDICATING), THE BRIEFCASE -- WHATEVER THAT CASE IS THERE.
# 441 MS. CLARK: I DON'T WANT TO MARK THE DETECTIVE'S BAG, BUT LET ME SHOW THE JURY.
# 442 Q: DID IT SEEM TO BE ABOUT THE SIZE OF THIS BAG?
# 444 MS. CLARK: LET'S DESCRIBE THIS BAG. IT APPEARS TO BE ABOUT A FOOT AND A HALF IN LENGTH AND ABOUT ONE FOOT HIGH, BLACK, AND IT HAS BLACK STRAPS.
# 445 Q: BUT IT SEEMED --
# 446 A: IT WASN'T THE DESIGN, BUT THAT SIZE.
# 448 A: THAT IS WHAT I REMEMBER.
# 449 Q: HAD YOU EVER SEEN THAT BAG BEFORE?
# 451 Q: AND THEN WHERE DID YOU GO, SIR?
# 452 A: OKAY. THEN I WENT BACK IN THE -- I WAS HERE WITH THE DRIVER, (INDICATING), AND O.J. WAS OUTSIDE, TOO, AND SO I TOLD HIM ABOUT THE NOISE ALSO.
# 453 Q: OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU TAKE YOUR SEAT, SIR.
# 454 (WITNESS COMPLIES.) # 455 MS. CLARK: WAIT. I THINK MAYBE WE SHOULD -- WAS EVERYBODY ABLE TO SEE?
# 457 THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
# 458 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
# 459 Q: LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING, SIR. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD CHACHI BARK?
# 460 A: I HAVE HEARD HIM BARK.
# 463 Q: NO. WHAT WAS THE EVENT? YOU CIRCLED IT ON THE CALENDAR OR WHAT?
# 464 A: UMM, I THINK WHEN KATO, THE OTHER DOG -- NOT THIS DOG, NO -- KATO, ANOTHER DOG, WAS OVER, THAT THEY PLAY AND KATO WOULD START BITING HIM AND GO GRRRR, GRRRR, GRRRR AND DO THAT.
# 465 Q: DID YOU EVER SEE HIM BARK AT STRANGERS?
# 466 A: I DIDN'T SEE TOO MANY STRANGERS THERE, SO NO, HE WAS PRETTY MUCH FRIENDLY.
# 467 Q: WHEN YOU SAY KATO, ANOTHER DOG, WHO ARE YOU REFERRING TO?
# 468 A: IT IS THE AKITA, THE AKITA DOG.
# 470 A: TO O.J., THE KIDS.
# 471 Q: UH-HUH. AND DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THE AKITA NAMED KATO WENT TO LIVE WITH NICOLE AT SOME POINT?
# 472 A: YEAH, IT WAS LIVING OVER ON BUNDY AND IT WOULD COME OVER ALSO AND IT WAS SOMETIMES THERE, SOMETIMES THERE, BUT MOSTLY ON BUNDY.
# 473 Q: IT WOULD COME OVER BY ITSELF TO ROCKINGHAM OR DID NICOLE BRING IT?
# 474 A: IT DROVE. NO, IT WOULD COME OVER WITH NICOLE, THE KIDS. IT WOULD BE OVER THERE SOMETIMES, BUT MOSTLY ON BUNDY.
# 475 Q: OKAY. THAT SECOND GATE THAT YOU INDICATED ON THE SOUTH PATHWAY, SIR, IS THAT EVER KEPT LOCKED?
# 476 A: THE SECOND GATE IN THE BACK?
# 477 Q: RIGHT, ON THAT SOUTH PATHWAY?
# 480 A: NOT THAT I REMEMBER.
# 481 Q: SO IF YOU HAD WANTED TO GO THROUGH IT THAT NIGHT, COULD YOU HAVE OPENED IT?
# 483 Q: AND WHY WAS IT THAT YOU WERE WILLING TO GO BACK A SECOND TIME TO THAT SOUTH PATHWAY?
# 484 A: I GUESS JUST A LITTLE BIT SAFER KNOWING THERE WAS A LIMO DRIVER AND IT WAS -- I JUST DID IT. I JUST WENT BACK THERE. I THOUGHT I WAS BEING, YOU KNOW -- DOING A GOOD THING IF I FOUND A PROWLER OR SOMETHING.
# 485 Q: OKAY. YOU INDICATED THAT THE AKITA NAMED KATO BELONGED TO THE DEFENDANT?
# 486 MR. SHAPIRO: ASKED AND ANSWERED.
# 487 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 488 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: I DON'T KNOW WHO HE BELONGED TO. I THINK IT WAS -- IT WAS LIKE NICOLE'S, THE KIDS AND O.J.'S.
# 489 Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHO BOUGHT IT?
# 490 A: I DON'T KNOW WHO BOUGHT IT. I THINK MAYBE O.J. BOUGHT IT.
# 491 Q: OKAY. DID IT STAY AT ROCKINGHAM SOMETIMES?
# 493 Q: DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT PLAY WITH THAT DOG?
# 494 A: YEAH, SOMETIMES.
# 495 Q: HOW OFTEN WOULD YOU SEE IT AT ROCKINGHAM?
# 496 A: HUM, NOT VERY OFTEN, BUT IT WAS THERE, BUT MORE AT THE BUNDY WITH SYDNEY AND JUSTIN.
# 498 A: SO I CAN'T -- IT IS HARD TO PUT A TIME FRAME -- I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW MUCH DIFFERENCE IN TIME WOULD BE.
# 499 Q: BUT YOU SAW IT AT ROCKINGHAM AND IT --
# 500 A: IT HAD BEEN AT ROCKINGHAM SOMETIMES.
# 501 Q: WITH THE CHILDREN?
# 502 A: YES. THE CHILDREN PLAY AND SOMETIMES IT WAS THERE WHEN THE CHILDREN WEREN'T THERE, TOO.
# 503 Q: AND THAT DOG, WHEN THE CHILDREN SPENT THE NIGHT AT ROCKINGHAM, DID IT SPEND THE NIGHT ALSO?
# 504 A: YEAH. I WOULD SAY SOMETIMES, YEAH.
# 505 Q: ALL RIGHT. THAT KNAPSACK THAT YOU INDICATED YOU SAW THAT YOU THOUGHT WAS BLACK --
# 506 A: BLACK -- I THOUGHT I REMEMBER SEEING LIKE A LITTLE BROWN LEATHER PATCH.
# 507 Q: OKAY. WAS THAT BAG -- THAT KNAPSACK, WAS IT IN A LIT AREA, BRIGHTLY LIT, OR WAS IT IN A DARK AREA?
# 508 A: IT WAS -- I THINK IT WAS NEAR ONE OF THE DIMMER LIGHTS I THOUGHT, BUT IT WAS STILL IN A DARK AREA. IT WAS DARK ON THAT -- IT WAS AT NIGHTTIME, SO --
# 510 A: BUT IT WAS A DARK COLOR.
# 511 Q: NOW, WHEN YOU FIRST CAME OUT THAT PATHWAY FOR THE FIRST TIME WHEN YOU LEFT YOUR ROOM FOR THE FIRST TIME TO GO AND INVESTIGATE THE SOURCE OF THE THUMPS --
# 513 Q: -- CAME OUT ON THE ASHFORD SIDE LAWN, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?
# 514 A: THE FIRST TIME COMING OUT OF THE ROOM AND GETTING TO --
# 515 MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT. THIS IS ASKED AND ANSWERED FOR THE THIRD TIME.
# 516 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 517 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: THE FIRST TIME COMING THROUGH ASHFORD AND THEN SEEING THE LIMO?
# 518 Q: BY MS. CLARK: UH-HUH.
# 519 A: WHAT WAS I THINKING AS FAR AS THE NOISE?
# 521 A: I THOUGHT IT COULD BE SOMEONE.
# 522 Q: OKAY. AND WERE YOU -- WAS YOUR MIND OCCUPIED WITH THAT?
# 524 Q: WERE YOU LOOKING -- WERE YOU LOOKING DOWN THE DRIVEWAY AREA WHEN YOU SAW THE LIMO? DID YOU LOOK DOWN THE DRIVEWAY AREA?
# 526 Q: CONSTANTLY OR DID YOU AT SOME POINT LOOK AT THE LIMO? DID YOU LOOK AROUND YOU?
# 527 A: OH, YEAH, I LOOKED AROUND.
# 528 THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, MISS CLARK. ARE WE GOING TO NEED THIS DIAGRAM AGAIN?
# 529 MR. COCHRAN: WE CAN'T SEE THE JURY.
# 530 THE COURT: I HEARD THE COMMENT AND I HEARD THE OTHER COMMENTS AS WELL. ALL RIGHT. WHY DON'T WE MOVE THAT. UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO NEED IT, IT IS BLOCKING COUNSEL'S VIEW OF THE JURY. I THINK YOU CAN LEAVE THAT THERE.
# 532 Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO THE CAR AFTER GOING OUT THE SECOND TIME TO THE SOUTH PATHWAY, YOU SAID YOU WENT BACK TOWARD THE LIMO?
# 533 A: SAY THAT -- THE QUESTION AGAIN.
# 534 Q: AFTER YOU LET THE LIMO DRIVER INTO THE PROPERTY, YOU HAD CONVERSATION WITH HIM, YOU INDICATED YOU WENT BACK AROUND THE GARAGE TO THE SOUTH PATHWAY AGAIN?
# 536 Q: AND YOU STOPPED THREE FEET BEFORE THE SECOND GATE?
# 538 Q: DO YOU RECALL THAT?
# 539 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) # 540 Q: THEN YOU SAID YOU WALKED BACK OUT AROUND THE GARAGE, YOU SAW THAT DARK KNAPSACK, THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?
# 541 A: UMM, WELL, THERE IS THREE OF US OUTSIDE NOW SO I --
# 542 Q: YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT?
# 543 A: OKAY. WELL, THREE OF US, YES; O.J., MYSELF AND THE DRIVER.
# 545 A: JUST LIKE OUTSIDE ON THE DRIVEWAY.
# 547 A: AND I THINK THE DOOR WAS OPENED. I DON'T -- THE FRONT DOOR I THOUGHT WAS OPENED. I DON'T --
# 548 Q: OKAY. DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE DEFENDANT WHEN YOU SAW HIM THERE?
# 550 Q: WHAT DID YOU SAY?
# 551 A: WELL, I WAS TELLING HIM ABOUT THIS NOISE I HEARD. I SAID, "O.J., I HEARD THIS NOISE AND I THOUGHT IT WAS AN EARTHQUAKE AND I THOUGHT MAYBE SOMEONE IS BACK THERE" AND I TOLD HIM I WAS GOING TO INVESTIGATE IT AND I HAD A LOUSY FLASHLIGHT.
KEY QUOTE # 552 Q: OKAY. AND THEN WHAT?
# 553 A: AND SO I ASKED THE LIMO DRIVER, I SAID, "DO YOU HAVE A BETTER FLASHLIGHT?" AND HE CHECKED AND HE LOOKED AROUND AND HE DIDN'T. AND THEN I SAID, "O.J., DO WE HAVE A BETTER FLASHLIGHT?" AND, UMM, WHEN I TOLD HIM ABOUT THE NOISE, HE WAS GOING TO TAKE ONE WAY, I WAS GOING TO GO ANOTHER WAY, BUT THAT IS WHEN I SAID, "WE HAVE THIS LOUSY FLASHLIGHT, WE NEED ANOTHER ONE" AND SO HE WAS GOING TO GO INSIDE AND CHECK.
# 554 Q: AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
# 555 A: OKAY. SO HE WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE, I FOLLOWED BEHIND, AND WE GOT TOWARDS THE KITCHEN AREA AND I WAS KIND OF IN THE FRONT DOOR ENTRANCE BEHIND HIM, BUT NOT YET IN THE KITCHEN, AND IT WAS -- I DIDN'T LOOK, BUT HE SAID, "IS IT THAT LATE?" HE SAID WE DIDN'T HAVE TIME AND WE DIDN'T GET THE FLASHLIGHT SO HE HAD TO CATCH THE FLIGHT.
# 556 Q: OKAY. NOW, AT SOME POINT AFTER YOU CAME BACK FROM YOUR SECOND TRIP TO THE SOUTH PATHWAY, AFTER THAT POINT, DID YOU HELP TO LOAD BAGS INTO THE CAR?
# 557 A: YEAH. I PUT THE GOLF BAG IN ALREADY AND I WAS GOING TO GO GET THE KNAPSACK TO PUT IN.
# 558 Q: YOU SAID THE KNAPSACK. IS THAT THE DARK KNAPSACK THAT YOU SAW ON THE DRIVEWAY AREA WHERE YOU INDICATED THE RED DOT BEHIND THE ROLLS ROYCE?
# 560 Q: DID YOU SAY SOMETHING TO MR. SIMPSON ABOUT THAT DARK KNAPSACK?
# 561 A: THAT I WAS GOING TO GET IT.
# 562 Q: YOU OFFERED TO GET IT?
# 564 Q: AND WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE?
# 566 Q: WHAT DID HE SAY?
# 568 Q: AND THEN WHAT DID HE DO?
# 569 A: I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION. I THINK HE GOT IT.
# 570 Q: DID HE WALK IN THAT DIRECTION?
# 572 Q: IN THE DIRECTION OF WHERE THE KNAPSACK WAS?
# 574 Q: ALL RIGHT. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
# 575 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) # 576 Q: AFTER YOU OFFERED TO GET THE KNAPSACK, HE REFUSED, WALKED TOWARDS IT, WHAT DID YOU DO?
# 577 MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THAT. ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE.
# 578 THE COURT: REPHRASE THE QUESTION, PLEASE.
# 579 MR. SHAPIRO: ASK THE JURY TO DISREGARD.
# 580 THE COURT: ASK THE QUESTION AGAIN.
# 581 Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT WALK TOWARD THE KNAPSACK. WHAT DID YOU DO?
# 582 A: OKAY. I WAS STILL CONCERNED ABOUT A FLASHLIGHT AND I THINK THAT IS WHEN THE CONVERSATION OF THE FLASHLIGHT CAME IN AND THE LIMO DRIVER WAS LOOKING AND I WAS SEEING IF HE IS FINDING A FLASHLIGHT.
# 584 A: OKAY. AND THEN THAT IS WHEN I WAS GOING TO HAVE MYSELF AND O.J. LOOK BEHIND THERE AND THEN HE HAD TO CATCH HIS FLIGHT, SO I MENTIONED ABOUT THE KITCHEN.
# 585 Q: DID YOU AT SOME POINT WALK INTO THE HOUSE WITH THE DEFENDANT?
# 587 Q: AND AT WHAT POINT WAS THAT?
# 588 A: RIGHT BEFORE LEAVING.
# 589 Q: AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE DID YOU WALK INTO THE HOUSE WITH HIM?
# 590 A: BECAUSE WE WERE IN SEARCH OF A FLASHLIGHT.
# 591 Q: WHERE DID YOU GO INSIDE THE HOUSE?
# 592 A: I WALKED IN THE FRONT ENTRANCE, AND WHEN YOU WALK IN ABOUT FIVE FEET OR SO, YOU CAN MAKE A RIGHT AND GO INTO THE KITCHEN, SO I GOT IN AS FAR AS LIKE A FOOT MAYBE IN THE KITCHEN, HE WAS IN THE KITCHEN, AND --
# 593 Q: YOU WERE IN THE KITCHEN AND WHERE WAS THE DEFENDANT?
# 594 A: WELL, I WAS KIND OF IN THE HALLWAY STILL, KITCHEN, AND HE WAS ABOUT SIX OR SEVEN FEET IN FRONT.
# 595 Q: HE WAS INSIDE THE KITCHEN?
# 597 Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
# 598 A: HE NOTICED THE TIME AND HAD TO CATCH THE FLIGHT.
# 599 Q: WHAT DID HE SAY?
# 600 A: IS THAT THE TIME? I SAID, "YOU GOT TO CATCH YOUR FLIGHT."
# 602 A: HE GOT IN THE LIMO. I MEAN, WENT BACK OUT OF THE KITCHEN, BACK, AND HE WAS GOING TO HOP IN THE LIMO TO THE AIRPORT.
# 603 Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU WALKED INTO THE HOUSE WITH HIM, DID YOU WALK THROUGH THE FOYER AREA?
# 604 A: INTO THE FOYER, YES. THAT IS WHERE I STAYED MAYBE -- I WASN'T IN THE KITCHEN AREA. YOU KNOW THE AREA, IT IS THERE. AND I STOPPED AND THEN HE TURNED AROUND BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE TIME AND HE HAD TO CATCH THE FLIGHT.
# 605 Q: DID YOU PAUSE AND TALK TO HIM IN THE FOYER AREA FOR A MOMENT?
# 607 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) # 608 Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHEN YOU PAUSED AND TALKED TO HIM IN THE FOYER AREA OF THE HOUSE, WHAT WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
# 609 A: HE WAS LEAVING AND IT WAS -- THERE IS AN ALARM AND HE WAS ASKING ME TO SET THE ALARM.
# 610 Q: HAD HE EVER ASKED YOU TO SET THE ALARM FOR HIM BEFORE?
# 612 Q: DID YOU KNOW THE CODE TO SET THE ALARM?
# 614 Q: DID YOU WANT TO SET THE ALARM?
# 617 A: JUST ANOTHER RESPONSIBILITY THAT I DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW THE ALARM CODE.
# 618 Q: AND WHAT DID YOU SAY WHEN HE ASKED YOU TO SET THE ALARM?
# 619 A: "I DON'T KNOW THE CODE."
# 620 Q: AND WHAT WAS THE DEFENDANT'S RESPONSE?
# 621 A: UMM, I DON'T -- I THINK HE WAS GOING TO SET IT, THAT HE WAS GOING TO SET THE ALARM.
# 622 Q: DID HE TELL YOU THAT OR --
# 623 A: YEAH, I THINK IT WAS THAT HE WOULD SET IT. IT WAS KIND OF AN UNDERSTANDING, BECAUSE I DIDN'T GET THE CODE, BUT I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION AS FAR AS IF HE SET IT OR NOT.
# 624 Q: AND YOU HAD THAT CONVERSATION WHILE YOU WERE STANDING WITH HIM IN THE FOYER?
# 625 A: IN THE FOYER AREA, YES.
# 626 Q: DID YOU HAPPEN TO NOTICE WHETHER HIS -- HE HAD ANY INJURY TO EITHER HAND AT THAT TIME?
# 627 A: I DIDN'T NOTICE, NO.
# 628 Q: YOU DID NOT NOTICE?
# 630 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) # 631 MS. CLARK: PEOPLE'S 112, YOUR HONOR.
# 632 Q: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 112, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE THAT LOCATION?
# 633 A: THAT IS THE FOYER.
# 634 Q: THAT IS THE AREA WHERE YOU STOOD AND TALKED TO HIM ABOUT THE ALARM CONTROL?
# 636 Q: DID YOU NOT NOTICE ANY INJURY TO HIS HAND?
# 638 MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. I THINK IT IS CONFUSING BASED ON HIS PRIOR ANSWER.
# 639 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 640 Q: BY MS. CLARK: AFTER YOU HAD THE CONVERSATION ABOUT THE ALARM CONTROL PANEL, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
# 641 A: UMM, HE GOT IN THE LIMO TO CATCH THE FLIGHT.
# 642 Q: APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN HE DID THAT?
# 643 A: I THOUGHT IT WAS LIKE 11:15.
# 644 Q: CAN YOU, SIR, ESTIMATE FOR US ABOUT HOW MUCH TIME YOU SPENT WITH THE DEFENDANT AFTER THE LIMO DRIVER ARRIVED?
# 645 A: AFTER THE LIMO DRIVER ARRIVED? WHEN I FIRST SAW HIM?
# 646 Q: RIGHT. FROM THE TIME YOU FIRST SAW HIM TO THE TIME HE LEFT FOR THE AIRPORT?
# 647 A: I THINK IT WAS ABOUT FIVE MINUTES.
# 648 Q: AND THROUGH WHICH GATE DID THE LIMO DRIVER EXIT?
# 650 Q: AND HOW DID HE GET OUT?
# 651 A: THERE IS A BUTTON. I PRESSED IT FOR HIM AND IT OPENS THE GATE.
# 652 Q: IS THAT -- WHERE IS THAT BUTTON LOCATED, SIR?
# 653 A: IT WOULD BE -- IT IS ON THE DRIVEWAY. TO THE LEFT THERE IS A BUTTON THAT YOU CAN PRESS. I MEAN, I CAN SHOW YOU.
# 655 A: I CAN JUST POINT IT RIGHT HERE FROM HERE.
# 656 Q: OKAY. I WILL HOLD IT UP AND YOU DO THAT.
# 657 A: THERE IS -- OH, IT IS RIGHT THERE, (INDICATING).
# 658 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING TO THE LOCATION THAT IS DESIGNATED ON THE DIAGRAM AS "GATE CONTROL BOX" ON THE ROCKINGHAM GATE SIDE.
# 660 Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHEN THAT GATE CLOSES, DOES IT LOCK AUTOMATICALLY?
# 661 A: I'M PRETTY SURE IT LOCKS, YES.
# 662 Q: I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ROCKINGHAM GATE.
# 664 Q: HOW DID YOU GET IN FROM THE OUTSIDE?
# 665 A: OF THE ROCKINGHAM GATE?
# 667 A: YOU CAN USE A KEY.
# 668 Q: AND DID YOU HAVE THAT KEY?
# 670 Q: AS FOR THE ASHFORD GATE, CAN YOU TELL US HOW THAT GATE OPERATED?
# 671 A: THERE IS AN INTERCOM THAT CAN BE BUZZED IN FROM INSIDE, AND THERE IS ALSO A HINGE THAT YOU CAN OPEN IT UP AUTOMATICALLY BY -- YOU KNOW, IF YOU ADJUST THE HINGE THE RIGHT WAY, YOU CAN PUSH IT OPEN AND GET IN.
# 672 Q: CAN YOU GET IN THROUGH THE ASHFORD STREET SIDE WITHOUT A KEY?
# 674 Q: CAN YOU GET IN THROUGH THE ASHFORD STREET GATE WITHOUT SOMEBODY BUZZING YOU IN?
# 676 Q: ALL RIGHT. AFTER THE DEFENDANT LEFT IN THE LIMO, WHAT DID YOU DO? I THINK YOU INDICATED YOU PUSHED -- DID YOU PUSH THE BUTTON ON THE GATE TO CLOSE IT?
# 677 A: THE GATE CONTROL.
# 678 Q: ON THE ROCKINGHAM GATE?
# 680 Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
# 681 A: SO THE GATE OPENED, WAVED GOOD-BYE AND THEN THEY DROVE OFF AND THEN I STARTED GOING BACK TOWARDS MY ROOM, AND THEN I SAW THE RED LIGHT OR IT WAS A GREEN LIGHT ON THE ALARM, THAT IT WASN'T SET.
# 682 Q: WHERE DID YOU SEE THAT?
# 683 A: THERE IS AN ALARM BOX WHERE YOU SET THE CODE.
# 685 A: IN THE FRONT DOOR -- BY THE FRONT DOOR.
# 688 Q: NEXT TO THE FRONT DOOR, ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE FRONT DOOR?
# 690 Q: AND THAT LIGHT WAS GREEN. WHAT DID THAT MEAN TO YOU?
# 691 A: THAT IT WAS OPENED.
# 692 Q: THAT THE ALARM WAS NOT ON?
# 694 Q: WHAT DID YOU DO ABOUT THAT?
# 695 A: NOTHING. I WENT BACK TO MY ROOM.
# 696 Q: HOW DID YOU GO BACK TO YOUR ROOM? DID YOU GO THROUGH THE HOUSE?
# 697 A: NO. I WENT TO THE PATHWAY, SAME WAY THAT I CAME OUT FROM.
# 698 Q: WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST GO THROUGH THE HOUSE?
# 699 A: I DIDN'T KNOW IF IT WAS LOCKED OR NOT. I KNOW THAT THE -- THAT IT WAS A GREEN LIGHT, AND I IMAGINE THAT MEANT THE ALARM WASN'T ON, BUT I JUST WENT BACK TO MY ROOM.
# 700 Q: OKAY. THAT FRONT DOOR, IS THAT NORMALLY KEPT LOCKED?
# 702 Q: TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WHO HAS A KEY TO THAT FRONT DOOR?
# 703 A: I THINK IT IS O.J., ARNELLE AND THE HOUSEKEEPER, GIGI, PROBABLY HAD A KEY.
# 704 Q: DID YOU HAVE A KEY?
# 706 THE COURT: IS THIS A GOOD POINT, MISS CLARK?
# 707 (NODS HEAD UP AND DOWN.) # 708 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS FOR THE MORNING SESSION. PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITIONS TO YOU. DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONG YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU. ALSO, DO NOT ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU WITH REGARD TO THE CASE. MR. KAELIN, YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU ARE ORDERED TO RETURN PROMPTLY AT 1:30. ALL RIGHT. WE WILL STAND IN RECESS UNTIL 1:30. (AT 12:00 P.M. THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN UNTIL 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.)
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, MARCH 22, 1995 1:35 P.M.
DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE
APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)