ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. ALL RIGHT. DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WOULD YOU PLEASE RESUME THE WITNESS STAND.

MARK FUHRMAN, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE EVENING ADJOURNMENT, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:

ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

GOOD MORNING.

WELCOME BACK. HOPE YOU ALL HAD A PLEASANT WEEKEND. ALL RIGHT. DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN IS AGAIN ON THE WITNESS STAND. GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE.

GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.

YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH. AND MISS CLARK, YOU MAY RESUME WITH YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION.

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

BY MS. CLARK:

LET'S SEE. I THINK WHERE WE LEFT OFF ON FRIDAY, SIR, YOU WERE SHOWING THE JURY THE SHOVEL AND THE PLASTIC AND THE WOOD, THE PIECE OF WOOD THAT YOU SAW NEAR THE BRONCO. DO YOU RECALL THAT?

YES, I DO.

NOW, FIRST OF ALL, THE PLASTIC, YOU INDICATED -- WHERE DID YOU RECOVER THAT FROM?

THE --

WHAT PART OF THE BRONCO? YOU DIDN'T RECOVER IT. WHERE DID YOU SEE IT?

I SAW IT IN THE RIGHT SIDE OR THE PASSENGER SIDE OF THE REAR CARGO AREA, ALONG THE SIDE OF THE VEHICLE CARGO AREA.

AND THAT WAS -- WAS IT INSIDE SOMETHING?

IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS IN SOME SORT OF A POCKET.

OKAY. YOU DID NOT RECOVER THAT ITEM?

NO, I DIDN'T.

AND DID YOU RECOVER THE SHOVEL?

NO, I DIDN'T.

DID YOU RECOVER THE WOOD?

NO.

THAT WAS LEFT FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO RECOVER?

YES, MA'AM.

OKAY. NOW, THAT PLASTIC, DO YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW WHETHER IT BELONGS IN A BRONCO OR ANYTHING ABOUT IT?

WELL, NOW I DO.

AND WHAT IS THAT?

IT IS THE SPARE TIRE BAG.

OKAY.

IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN A TIRE IS OFF THE VEHICLE AND IT IS DIRTY, YOU PLACE IT IN THE BAG SO YOU CAN PLACE IT IN THE CARGO AREA.

AND THAT IS STANDARD EQUIPMENT FOR A FORD BRONCO, IS IT?

I WAS TOLD IT WAS, YES.

WHAT ABOUT THAT SHOVEL? STANDARD EQUIPMENT ALSO?

NO. I DON'T BELIEVE SO, NO.

NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH MR. KAELIN IN WHICH HE INFORMED YOU ABOUT THE THUMPS ON THE WALL. DO YOU RECALL THAT?

YES.

WHAT TIME DID HE SAY HE HEARD THOSE THUMPS?

10:45 P.M.

OKAY. YOU -- I THINK YOU HAD TESTIFIED EARLIER THAT YOU BROUGHT HIM INTO THE HOUSE WITH YOU AND PUT HIM IN THE BAR AREA?

YES, MA'AM.

AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?

THEN I WALKED TOWARDS THE FRONT DOOR AREA WHICH PASSES THE KITCHEN.

AND THEN WHAT?

I SAW DETECTIVE VANNATTER IN THE KITCHEN. I TOLD DETECTIVE VANNATTER. I SAID SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT, "PHIL, TALK TO THIS GUY AT THE BAR."

OKAY. DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT TO TALK ABOUT?

NO.

AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?

I WALKED OUT THE FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE.

OKAY. AND AT THAT MOMENT THAT YOU WALKED OUT THE FRONT DOOR, SIR, DID YOU KNOW WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS?

NO.

DID YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHERE HE HAD GONE THE NIGHT BEFORE?

NO.

OR IF HE HAD GONE ANYWHERE?

I HAD NO IDEA, MA'AM.

OR WHEN HE WAS DUE TO RETURN?

NO.

WHEN YOU LEFT -- WHEN YOU EXITED THE FRONT DOOR, WHERE DID YOU GO?

I WALKED OUT INTO THE DRIVEWAY AND I LOOKED TO MY LEFT TO SEE WHERE THE PROPERTY ENDED.

BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. SIR, IF YOU WOULD PLEASE STEP DOWN AND SHOW US THE ROUTE YOU TOOK WHEN YOU EXITED THE FRONT DOOR.

ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, YOU ARE REFERRING TO THE DIAGRAM?

PEOPLE'S 66, I'M SORRY.

PEOPLE'S --

66.

-- 66. THANK YOU.

I EXITED THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE WHERE ON THIS CHART IT SAYS "ENTRANCE." I EXITED GOING WEST. I WALKED ONTO THE DRIVEWAY AND THEN LOOKED SOUTH.

NOW, WHY DID YOU LOOK SOUTH?

WELL, FROM WHERE I HAD COME FROM IN KAELIN'S ROOM, THE WALL THAT HE HEARD THE CRASH OR THE THUMP WAS ON THE SOUTH WALL.

UH-HUH. AND THEN WHERE DID YOU GO?

I WALKED DOWN TO THE DRIVEWAY AND I STARTED WALKING DOWN TOWARDS THE GARAGE. THE GARAGE COMES SOMEWHAT OUT FROM THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE. I WALKED AROUND THE GARAGE AND WENT DOWN TO THE SOUTHERN MOST PART OF THE PROPERTY AND THEN I LOOKED TO MY LEFT, WHICH WOULD BE EAST.

OKAY. AND YOU LOOKED TO YOUR LEFT EASTWARD BECAUSE WHY?

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE DIRECTION GOING BACK TOWARDS KAELIN'S ROOM.

WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

I SAW A PATHWAY. IT LOOKED VERY NARROW AND DARK AND THERE WAS A CYCLONE FENCE THAT RAN ALONG THE SOUTHERN PROPERTY LINE WITH LOOKED LIKE PLANTS FROM THE RESIDENCE TO THE SOUTH THAT HAD OVERGROWN TOWARDS THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE.

AND WERE THERE ANY GATES THERE?

I BELIEVE THERE WAS A GATE THAT WAS BROKEN AT SOME POINT IN HERE, (INDICATING). I BELIEVE IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN HERE, (INDICATING). I BELIEVE IT WAS LAID UP AGAINST SOME -- I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT DEBRIS WAS THERE. WHAT WAS THERE, BUT IT WAS THERE, YES.

SO IT WAS NOT CLOSED, THE GATE?

NO.

AND SO WHAT DID YOU DO? WHERE DID YOU GO?

WELL, I TOOK OUT MY FLASHLIGHT AND I STARTED WALKING DOWN THE PATH TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE RESIDENCE ARCHITECTURE TO FIGURE OUT WHERE KAELIN'S WALL MIGHT HAVE BEEN.

NOW, WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE FROM THAT FIRST GATE AREA IN TERMS OF FARTHER DOWN THE WALKWAY? WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE?

WELL, I COULD SEE THERE WAS A LONG WALKWAY, BUT THIS WAS A LITTLE ELEVATED, SO I WAS LOOKING SOMEWHAT DOWNWARD. I SAW A LONG PATH, A LONG DARK PATH COVERED WITH LEAVES.

AND WHAT DID YOU EXPECT TO FIND?

I DIDN'T KNOW. I THOUGHT POSSIBILITY SOMEBODY HAD COLLAPSED BACK THERE.

AND WHY -- WHY DID YOU THINK THAT?

BY KAELIN'S STATEMENT, IT WAS RATHER ODD THE THUMP ON THE WALL, NOTHING THAT FOLLOWED UP, PLUS WHAT I OBSERVED ON THE BRONCO THAT WAS PARKED ON ROCKINGHAM AND THE INABILITY TO RAISE ANYBODY IN THE RESIDENCE. THAT WAS OUR CONCERNS AT THAT POINT.

OKAY. SO WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF THAT FIRST GATE AREA GOING DOWN? ANYTHING?

NOTHING REALLY.

WAS IT -- CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE LIGHTING IN THAT AREA?

WELL, THE LIGHTING OUTSIDE -- IT WAS GETTING LIGHT OUTSIDE BUT IT WAS -- IT WAS EVEN WORSE LIGHTING BACK HERE, (INDICATING), VERY SHADED. THESE TREES OR SHRUBS CAUSE IT TO BE DARK -- DARK AND THEN THESE -- ALL THESE BUILDINGS WERE MUCH HIGHER THAN -- ABOUT THE SAME HEIGHT AS THE TREES AT SOME POINT, SOMETIMES HIGHER.

OKAY. SO DID YOU NEED THE AID OF YOUR FLASHLIGHT IN ORDER TO SEE WHERE YOU WERE GOING?

NOT SO MUCH TO SEE WHERE I WAS WALKING, BUT MOSTLY JUST TO LOOK FOR ANYTHING THAT I MIGHT HAVE WALKED ON.

UH-HUH.

IT WASN'T THAT POWERFUL, SO --

THAT WAS THAT LITTLE FLASHLIGHT?

TWO DOUBLE A BATTERIES AND A SMALL MAG LIGHT.

AND THEN YOU -- WHERE DID YOU GO AFTER YOU REACHED THAT FIRST GATE AREA?

I GOT TO THIS AREA AND I WAS KIND OF CONFUSED BY THIS INDENTATION AND I LOOKED IN THIS AREA, (INDICATING), BUT I COULDN'T SEE ANYTHING THAT WOULD -- THAT WOULD REALLY INDICATE THAT THIS IS WHERE THE NOISE WAS FROM. I WALKED BACK OUT HERE, (INDICATING), IN THIS AREA. I BELIEVE THERE WAS ANOTHER GATE IN HERE SOMEWHERE, BUT I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS OPENED OR CLOSED.

FOR THE RECORD WHEN THE WITNESS SAID, "THIS AREA" HE WAS REFERRING TO THE -- BEHIND THE GARAGE AREA, THE ENTIRE AREA ON PEOPLE'S 66 THAT IS INDENTED THAT WOULD BE JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE GARAGE AREA.

AND THEN YOU RECALL A SECOND GATE?

I BELIEVE SO. IT WAS -- IT WAS ALSO OPENED.

OKAY. NOT LOCKED?

NOT LOCKED, NO.

AND DID YOU -- WERE YOU -- WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE WHEN YOU GOT TO THE SECOND GATE AREA IN TERMS OF FARTHER DOWN THE WALKWAY?

THEN I WAS -- AS I WAS FURTHER DOWN THE WALKWAY -- I HADN'T BEEN ABLE TO SEE ANYTHING FARTHER DOWN THE WALKWAY. I WAS LOOKING AT THIS ARCHITECTURE IN HERE, (INDICATING), WHERE IT IS BEGINNING TO COME BACK OUT ADJACENT TO THE PATH.

OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU HAVE A SEAT.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE ANOTHER BOARD. IT HAS BEEN SHOWN TO THE DEFENSE. I ASK THAT IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 116.

ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 116, NEXT IN ORDER, WHICH IS A CHART.

CAN I ASK THE COURT T.V. PERSON TO GIVE ME A LOOK AT IT, PLEASE.

BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. I GUESS YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO STEP DOWN AGAIN.

DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION, SIR, TO PEOPLE'S 116, THE PHOTOGRAPH LABELED A, TELL US WHAT IS DEPICTED IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH.

PHOTOGRAPH A IS THE FRONT OF THE GARAGE. THIS IS FACING DUE WEST. I WALKED ALONG THE PATH AND CAME OUT IN FRONT OF THE GARAGE AND WALKED TO THIS ENTRANCE RIGHT HERE AND LOOKED EAST DOWN THE PATH, (INDICATING).

FOR THE RECORD, WHEN THE WITNESS INDICATED "THIS ENTRANCE," HE IS POINTING TO THE AREA JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE OF THE GARAGE AS YOU FACE THE PHOTOGRAPH.

IT APPEARS TO BE THE SOUTH PORTION OF THE GARAGE.

THAT'S RIGHT. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

AND PHOTOGRAPH B?

PHOTOGRAPH B WOULD BE -- THIS IS THE AIR CONDITIONER THAT IS JUTTING OUT WITH THE BRACING. THIS WALL LINE HERE I BELIEVE IS THE BEGINNING OF THE BUILDING, THE BUNGALOWS WHERE I BELIEVE THE OUTSIDE OF KATO'S WALL, MAYBE THE OFFICE THAT IS JUST ADJACENT TO KATO'S WALL.

OKAY. BEFORE WE GET TO THOSE --

1492, CAN YOU SEE EVERYTHING THERE FROM WHERE EVERYBODY IS STANDING? ALL RIGHT. ANYBODY IN THE JURY WHO CAN'T SEE, LET ME KNOW. THANK YOU.

BY MS. CLARK: NOW, YOU SAID YOU PASSED THROUGH THE SECOND GATE AREA?

YES.

AND WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE WHEN YOU GOT TO THE AREA OF THE SECOND GATE?

WELL, I WAS LOOKING -- INITIALLY I WAS LOOKING UP TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE -- WHERE THE WALL WAS. I LOOKED UP. I SAW A SHEAR WALL THAT WENT UP QUITE A WAYS, LIKE FIFTEEN -- MAYBE AS HIGH AS TWENTY FEET, AND THE PITCH OF THE ROOF WENT DIRECTLY BACK IN TOWARDS THE POOL AREA. AND I RECALLED THAT FROM WHEN I WAS ON THE OTHER SIDE. AND I DETERMINED THAT THAT WAS PROBABLY KATO'S WALL.

SO AS YOU WERE LOOKING THEN AT THE OUTSIDE OF THE RESIDENCE, YOU WERE TRYING TO FIND OUT -- YOU WERE TRYING TO DETERMINE WHAT WALL MATCHED UP WITH THE OUTSIDE OF KATO'S ROOM?

YES.

AND WHAT TIME WAS IT, IF YOU RECALL, WHEN YOU EXITED THE HOUSE AND WENT DOWN THAT SOUTH PATHWAY?

6:00, 6:10, 6:15.

WERE YOU LOOKING AT YOUR WATCH WHEN YOU WENT OUT OF THE HOUSE?

NO. NO, MA'AM.

YOU ARE ESTIMATING FOR US?

YES.

AND THEN AFTER YOU PASSED THROUGH THAT SECOND GATE AREA, YOU SAW THE WALL THAT APPEARED TO MATCH KATO'S WALL?

YES.

THEN WHAT HAPPENED?

I CONTINUED WALKING DOWN THE PATH, AND WHEN I GOT APPROXIMATELY FIFTEEN OR TWENTY FEET AWAY, I SAW A DARK OBJECT AND I CONTINUED TO WALK FORWARD TOWARDS THAT OBJECT.

COULD YOU TELL WHAT THAT DARK OBJECT WAS?

NO, NOT UNTIL I GOT VERY CLOSE.

AND HOW CLOSE DID YOU GET BEFORE YOU COULD TELL WHAT IT WAS?

SEVERAL FEET, MAYBE THREE OR FOUR, I'M NOT SURE. AT SOME POINT I COULD TELL THAT IT WAS A GLOVE.

AND WHEN YOU SAW THAT IT WAS A GLOVE -- FIRST OF ALL, WHERE DID YOU SEE IT IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE AIR CONDITIONER SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S B AND C?

HERE IS THE AIR CONDITIONER, (INDICATING).

PEOPLE'S B.

AN I LOOKED DOWN AND THERE IS THE DARK OBJECT THAT I SAW, (INDICATING).

FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING TO WHAT LOOKS LIKE A SMALL DARK SPOT RIGHT NEXT -- ON THE GROUND NEAR THE AIR CONDITIONER IN PHOTOGRAPH B.

AND IN PHOTOGRAPH C CAN YOU SEE IT?

I -- IT IS RATHER DARK, BUT I BELIEVE -- HERE IS THE AIR CONDITIONER BRACING AND THEN I BELIEVE THIS IS -- IT IS REALLY HARD TO SEE RIGHT IN HERE. THIS LOOKS LIKE THE OBJECT THAT I SAW, YES.

AND FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS POINTED TO TWO PRICES OF WOOD STICKING OUT OF THE WALL IN THE TOP OF PHOTOGRAPH C WHEN HE REFERRED TO THE BRACING FOR THE AIR CONDITIONER AND A DARK SPOT UNDERNEATH ON THE GROUND.

ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK -- EXCUSE ME. MISS CLARK, DO YOU WISH TO MOVE THAT EXHIBIT DOWN MOMENTARILY SO THE JURORS ON THE OTHER END OF THE BOX CAN SEE THAT?

YES. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS A GOOD IDEA.

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, GENTLEMEN. MISS CLARK.

THANK YOU.

IN PHOTOGRAPH D, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU SEE THERE?

PHOTOGRAPH D IS A PICTURE OF WHAT NOW I IDENTIFIED AS A POSSIBLE GLOVE. THIS WAS -- THIS WAS PROBABLY ABOUT THE DISTANCE, MAYBE A LITTLE FARTHER BACK, THAT I COULD TELL IT WAS PROBABLY A GLOVE.

AND WHEN YOU WERE ABLE TO TELL THAT IT WAS PROBABLY A GLOVE, WHAT DID YOU DO?

WELL, I WALKED CLOSER TO LOOK AT IT.

OKAY. HOW CLOSE DID YOU GET TO IT?

OH, I GOT PROBABLY AS CLOSE AS PHOTO F LOOKING DOWN AT IT.

OKAY. AND WHAT DID -- DID YOU JUST STAND AND LOOK DOWN AT IT? DID YOU TOUCH IT? WHAT DID YOU DO?

I DIDN'T TOUCH IT. I LOOKED AT IT. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF IT WAS.

GO AHEAD AND TAKE YOUR SEAT.

CAN YOU PULL UP -- CAN YOU PULL UP F, PLEASE.

PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NO. 116-F.

YOUR HONOR, IF WE ARE DONE WITH THIS EXHIBIT FOR THE MOMENT, MIGHT IT BE LOWERED? IT IS BLOCKING THE VIEW.

MISS CLARK, ARE YOU GOING TO CONTINUE TO USE THIS?

YES. I'M GOING TO GO BACK AND FORTH.

BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU PLEASE DESCRIBE THE APPEARANCE OF THE GLOVE, SIR.

WELL, IT APPEARED TO BE -- IT DIDN'T MATCH THE TERRAIN. THERE IS LEAVES ALL OVER THE WALKWAY. IT WAS DIRTY IN THE AREA. IT WAS UNKEPT (SIC). THIS GLOVE DIDN'T HAVE ANY SIGNS OF DIRT OR LEAVES OR TWIGS ON IT. IT APPEARED A DARK LEATHER GLOVE. IT APPEARED TO BE SOMEWHAT MOIST OR STICKY. I DIDN'T TOUCH IT, BUT IT APPEARED THAT PARTS WERE STICKING TO OTHER PARTS OF THE GLOVE.

AND YOU WERE DESCRIBING THE WALKWAY AREA. YOU INDICATED IT WAS KIND OF DIRTY WITH LEAVES. WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANY -- ANY FOOTPRINTS OR SHOEPRINTS OR DISTURBANCE IN THOSE LEAVES?

NO, I DIDN'T.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE, WAS IT VERY THICKLY COVERED WITH LEAVES? WHAT DID IT LOOK LIKE?

WELL, MUCH AS THIS PICTURE DEPICTS IN THIS PHOTO, THAT WAS MUCH OF THE WAY THE WALKWAY LOOKED.

OKAY. AND WHEN YOU LOOKED BACK, COULD YOU SEE WHERE YOU HAD JUST WALKED ON THE WALKWAY?

NO.

SO AFTER YOU GOT UP TO THE GLOVE, YOU INDICATE YOU LOOKED DOWN AT IT. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

WELL, AT THAT POINT I WAS SOMEWHAT ALARMED AT FINDING SOMETHING SUCH AS THIS, AND NOT KNOWING IF A SUSPECT OR A VICTIM HAD LEFT SOMETHING BACK THERE, SO I CONTINUED FARTHER EAST PASSED THE AIR CONDITIONER.

OKAY. LET ME BACK UP ONE SECOND. COULD YOU TELL WHETHER THAT WAS A RIGHT OR LEFT-HANDED GLOVE WHEN YOU LOOKED AT IT AT THAT TIME?

IT APPEARED TO BE A RIGHT-HANDED GLOVE.

OKAY. AND DID IT -- WAS IT -- WERE YOU -- WHAT SIGNIFICANCE DID YOU ATTACH TO IT WHEN YOU SAW IT, IF ANY?

ALL RIGHT. DID YOU -- DID YOU IMMEDIATELY THINK IT WAS A MATCH? WHAT WAS YOUR STATE OF MIND ABOUT THAT?

OH, I DIDN'T KNOW AT THAT POINT. IT WAS A DARK-COLORED LEATHER GLOVE.

OKAY. AND AFTER YOU SAW THAT GLOVE, DID YOU PICK IT UP?

NO.

WHAT DID YOU DO?

I CONTINUED -- I WALKED AROUND IT. I CONTINUED EASTBOUND ON THE WALKWAY.

DID ANYTHING DRAW YOUR ATTENTION AS YOU PASSED THE AREA OF THE GLOVE AND CONTINUED DOWN THE WALKWAY?

YES.

AND WHAT WAS THAT?

HAD YOU HIT ANY SPIDERWEBS OR COBWEBS UP UNTIL THE TIME YOU SAW THE GLOVE?

NO.

SO WHAT DID DO YOU NEXT? YOU CONTINUED DOWN THE WALKWAY?

YES, MA'AM.

AND WHY?

WELL, I DIDN'T KNOW IF I HAD SOMEONE THAT HAD GONE ALL THE WAY DOWN THE WALKWAY, WHETHER IT BE A SUSPECT OR A VICTIM. I DIDN'T KNOW THEIR CONDITION AND AT THAT POINT I DIDN'T WANT TO TURN MY BACK ON ANYONE THAT MIGHT BE WATCHING ME.

AND WHAT DID YOU SEE?

I SAW NOTHING. I CONTINUED DOWN THE WALKWAY TO THE END OF THE BUILDING WHERE THERE WAS A LARGE -- LARGE AREA OF BUDDING PLANTS AND SHRUBBERY. I CONCLUDED THAT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN WHERE GARDENERS START SMALL PLANTS.

SO IS THAT THE -- WHERE IS THAT AREA LOCATED WITH RESPECT TO THE HOUSE AND THE WALKWAY?

IT WOULD BE IN THE SOUTHEAST CORNER.

AT THE BACK OF THE HOUSE?

YES.

SO YOU WENT ALL THE WAY BACK THERE?

YES.

WHAT DID YOU THINK YOU WERE GOING TO FIND BACK THERE?

I WAS LOOKING FOR SOMEBODY THAT HAD COLLAPSED AND GONE BACK TO THAT AREA AND QUITE POSSIBLY WAS LYING THERE.

EVEN THOUGH YOU FELT COBWEBS, SPIDERWEBS ON THE WAY BACK?

WELL, I DIDN'T KNOW -- I WASN'T CRAWLING SO I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT TRANSPIRED THERE.

WERE YOU WALKING STRAIGHT UP, STANDING UP?

PRETTY MUCH, YES.

AS OPPOSED TO BEING BENT OVER?

I COULD HAVE BEEN BENT OVER AT SOME TIMES. SOME OF THE OVER HANGING LEAVES OR THE TREE -- I THINK SOME OF THE TIME THERE WAS BRANCHES IN THE WAY, SO I COULD HAVE BEEN LEANING OVER SOME OF THE TIME.

PERHAPS WE OUGHT TO KNOW HOW TALL THE DETECTIVE IS.

RIGHT.

AND YOU FELT THE COBWEBS WHERE? ON YOUR FACE, ON YOUR SHOULDERS? CAN YOU TELL US?

YES, ON MY FACE AND -- INITIALLY ON MY FACE.

OKAY.

I WENT UNDERNEATH THE AIR CONDITIONER.

AND HOW TALL ARE YOU?

SIX FOOT THREE.

OKAY. WHEN YOU GOT TO THE REAR OF THE LOCATION YOU SAW THAT AREA AND WAS THERE -- WAS IT LIKE A DIRT AREA BACK THERE?

SOMEWHAT. THERE WAS PLANTS AND THERE WAS WILD GRASS AND THERE WAS SOME SHRUBBERY AND THERE WAS SOME PLANTS THAT LOOKED LIKE THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN TAKEN CARE OF OR PLANTED THERE ON PURPOSE.

DID YOU LOOK AROUND?

YES.

WHAT DID -- OTHER THAN WHAT YOU HAVE JUST DESCRIBED, DID YOU SEE ANYTHING ELSE?

I FOUND NO -- NO EVIDENCE OF ANYONE BEING THERE OR ANY EVIDENCE OF ANYBODY LEAVING SOMETHING IN THAT AREA, SO I LEFT.

OKAY. AND WHERE DID YOU GO?

I WALKED BACK UP THE PATH WESTBOUND AND I WENT TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE AND I LOCATED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

NOW, WHEN YOU FIRST WENT BACK ON THAT WALKWAY, DID YOU KNOW WHETHER KATO HAD ALREADY GONE BACK THERE TO INVESTIGATE THE THUMPS ON THE WALL?

NO, I DIDN'T.

AND YOU WALKED BACK OUT?

YES.

AND WHEN YOU WALKED BACK OUT, SIR, CAN YOU INDICATE WHAT AREA YOU STEPPED OUT, WHERE YOU STEPPED OUT OF THE WALKWAY? IS THERE A PHOTOGRAPH THAT SHOWS WHERE YOU CAME OUT ON PEOPLE'S 66?

I BELIEVE SO, YES. YES.

WHICH ONE IS THAT?

YOU DON'T HAVE TO GET DOWN IF YOU DON'T NEED TO.

THAT WOULD BE PHOTO A.

PHOTO A, THAT SAME ENTRANCE AREA THAT YOU INDICATED EARLIER, SIR?

YES.

AND WHAT DID YOU DO AT THAT TIME?

I WALKED NORTH OR BACK TOWARD THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE AND I SAW DETECTIVE PHILLIPS IN FRONT OF THE -- THE KITCHEN T.V. ROOM AREA.

AND WHAT WAS HE DOING IN FRONT OF THE KITCHEN T.V. AREA?

I JUST SAW HIM STANDING THERE. I DON'T KNOW HIS REASON FOR COMING OUT THERE OR WHAT HE WAS DOING. I JUST ASKED TO TALK TO HIM.

OKAY.

YOUR HONOR, PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER, 117, HAS BEEN SHOWN TO THE DEFENSE, A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE HOUSE.

PEOPLE'S 117.

BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 117, SIR, YOU INDICATED JUST NOW THAT WHEN YOU CAME OUT FROM THE SOUTH PATHWAY THAT YOU WENT TOWARDS THE HOUSE WHERE YOU SAW DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?

YES, MA'AM.

DO YOU SEE THE AREA IN PEOPLE'S 117 WHERE YOU SAW DETECTIVE PHILLIPS STANDING?

YES.

AND WHERE IS THAT?

THERE IS A FIRST STORY WINDOW FACING THE CAMERA, ALMOST CENTER. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THAT PAVED AREA.

CAN YOU DIRECT THE POINTER?

YES.

YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK AT THE SCREEN AND TELL ME IF YOU CAN SEE THE RED DOT?

UP.

OKAY.

NOW, A BIG CIRCLE RIGHT IN THAT AREA, (INDICATING).

RIGHT HERE?

RIGHT A LITTLE TO THE RIGHT WHERE THE WALKWAY IS THAT GOES TO THAT AREA. YES, RIGHT IN THAT AREA, (INDICATING).

ALL RIGHT. WAS HE STANDING OUTSIDE, SIR?

YES.

AND WHAT -- DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?

SOMEWHAT. I JUST TOLD RON I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW HIM SOMETHING.

DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT YOU WANTED TO SHOW HIM?

NO.

WHY NOT?

I WANTED TO SEE HIS IMPRESSION. HE MADE SIMILAR OBSERVATIONS ON THE BUNDY SCENE THAT I HAD AND I WANTED TO SEE WHAT HE THOUGHT OF WHAT I HAD DISCOVERED ON THE PATHWAY.

OKAY. WHAT DID YOU DO THEN?

I TOOK DETECTIVE PHILLIPS DOWN THAT PATHWAY AND SHOWED HIM.

OKAY. AND WAS THAT -- DID YOU TAKE THE SAME ROUTE AS YOU HAD EARLIER?

I DIDN'T DELAY IN CERTAIN AREAS, BUT YES.

SO THIS TIME YOU JUST WALKED STRAIGHT BACK?

YES.

WHEN YOU SAY "DELAY IN CERTAIN AREAS," WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING TO?

WELL, THE INDENTATION ON THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE, THERE WAS A LARGE AMOUNT OF AREA THERE THAT I WALKED INTO THAT AREA TO ORIENT MYSELF. I DIDN'T DO THAT THIS TIME.

AND WHEN YOU TOOK DETECTIVE PHILLIPS OUT, HOW CLOSE DID YOU GET TO THE GLOVE?

WE STOOD JUST TO THE WEST OF IT KNEELING DOWN.

YOU WERE KNEELING DOWN?

YES.

OKAY. WAS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS KNEELING DOWN?

I DON'T RECALL. I JUST KNELT DOWN. THAT IS A NARROW PATH. I JUST KNELT DOWN SO HE COULD ALSO OBSERVE AND POINTED.

AND AFTER YOU SHOWED IT -- EXCUSE ME. DID DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TOUCH THE GLOVE?

NO.

DID YOU TOUCH THE GLOVE?

NO.

WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

WE RETURNED TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE, AND I'M NOT SURE IF I ENTERED THE RESIDENCE OR DETECTIVE PHILLIPS SENT DETECTIVE VANNATTER, BUT I BELIEVE I AT SOME POINT TALKED TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND LANGE AND I TOOK DETECTIVE VANNATTER BACK TO THE LOCATION.

AND WHAT ROUTE DID YOU TAKE WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

THE SAME AS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

AND HOW CLOSE DID YOU GET TO THE GLOVE WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

IT WAS SIMILAR. WE APPROACHED THE GLOVE JUST TO THE WEST OF IT, OBSERVED IT AND THEN TURNED AROUND AND WALKED BACK.

AND DID YOU TOUCH THE GLOVE AT THAT TIME?

NO.

DID DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

NO.

AND AFTER YOU BOTH SAW THE GLOVE, WHERE DID YOU GO?

WE RETURNED TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.

OKAY. AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?

I BELIEVE WE ENTERED THE KITCHEN AREA AND CONTACTED DETECTIVE LANGE AND I BROUGHT HIM DOWN TO THE SAME LOCATION.

AND WHAT DID YOU DO WITH DETECTIVE LANGE?

THE SAME AS THE TWO OTHER DETECTIVES, LED HIM DOWN TO THE GLOVE, SHOWED HIM WHAT I HAD OBSERVED AND WE RETURNED.

AND DID DETECTIVE LANGE TOUCH THE GLOVE?

NO.

DID YOU TOUCH THE GLOVE?

NO.

WHEN YOU CAME BACK OUT WITH DETECTIVE LANGE, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

DETECTIVE LANGE AND VANNATTER WERE INVOLVED IN CONVERSATION AND I BELIEVE I STOOD AWAY FROM -- FROM THAT, SO I'M NOT EXACTLY POSITIVE WHAT -- WHAT THE CONVERSATION ENTAILED.

OKAY. WHY DID YOU NOT INVOLVE YOURSELF IN THEIR CONVERSATION?

WELL, THIS WAS THEIR CRIME SCENE, SO THEY WERE DISCUSSING WHAT HAD BEEN FOUND, AND IF ANYTHING, WHAT IT MEANT.

OKAY. NOW, AT SOME POINT DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS ABOUT WHERE THE DEFENDANT WAS?

I DON'T RECALL. I LEARNED OF IT, YES, BUT I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHEN. I KNOW IT WAS AFTER I RETURNED WITH ALL THE DETECTIVES, BUT I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHEN.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAY "AFTER YOU RETURNED WITH ALL THE DETECTIVES"?

AFTER I CAME BACK FROM THE PATH AND NOTIFIED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, SOMETIME AFTER I SHOWED ALL THE DETECTIVES WHAT I HAD FOUND ON THE PATH, I LEARNED OF CONVERSATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH MR. SIMPSON.

OKAY. SO AT THE TIME THAT YOU FOUND THE GLOVE, YOU STILL DID NOT KNOW WHERE HE WAS OR WHERE HE HAD GONE OR WHEN HE HAD GONE THERE?

NO.

AND I SAY "HE," I'M REFERRING TO MR. SIMPSON.

THAT'S CORRECT.

SO IS IT YOUR CURRENT RECOLLECTION THEN, SIR, BASED ON WHAT YOU TELL US, THAT YOU LEARNED THAT THE DEFENDANT WAS IN -- WHERE THE DEFENDANT WAS AT SOME POINT AFTER ALL DETECTIVES WERE TAKEN BACK TO SEE THE GLOVE?

YES.

ALL RIGHT. AFTER DETECTIVE LANGE AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER HAD THAT CONVERSATION, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

THEREABOUTS SOMETIME DETECTIVE VANNATTER TOLD DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND MYSELF TO GO BACK TO BUNDY TO LOOK AT THAT GLOVE THAT WE HAD SEEN ON BUNDY.

AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE, SIR?

TO SEE IF THERE WAS A SIMILARITY, IF WE HAD A RIGHT AND A LEFT, SEE IF THE COLOR AND THE LEATHER AND THE LINING MATCHED.

AND SO AFTER DETECTIVE VANNATTER ASKED YOU TO DO THAT, DID YOU?

YES. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND I LEFT THE ROCKINGHAM SCENE AND WENT BACK TO BUNDY.

OKAY. IN THE SAME CAR YOU GUYS CAME IN EARLIER?

YES.

YOU DROVE TOGETHER, DID YOU?

YES.

AND WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO BUNDY?

I BELIEVE ABOUT 7:00 IN THE MORNING, MAYBE A LITTLE LATER.

AGAIN, WERE YOU LOOKING AT YOUR WATCH WHEN YOU LEFT ROCKINGHAM TO GO BACK TO BUNDY?

NO, I WASN'T.

IS THAT AN APPROXIMATION, SIR?

YES.

AND WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO BUNDY, WHAT DID YOU DO?

DETECTIVE PHILLIPS INSTRUCTED ME TO GET A PHOTOGRAPHER. I DID. WE WALKED DOWN DOROTHY, ENTERED THE ALLEY AND CAME IN THROUGH THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE.

OKAY.

CAN WE CUT THE FEED?

ANYTIME I HEAR "BUNDY."

YEAH.

PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NO. 55. 2, PLEASE.

ARE WE THROUGH WITH THIS EXHIBIT, YOUR HONOR? IT IS KIND OF IN THE WAY.

MISS CLARK?

WE WILL BE SHORTLY.

ALL RIGHT, SIR. WHEN DETECTIVE PHILLIPS ASKED YOU TO GO AND GET A PHOTOGRAPHER, DID YOU DO THAT?

YES, I DID.

AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THAT?

TO PHOTOGRAPH THE GLOVE IN ITS ORIGINAL POSITION, AND IF I NEEDED TO MOVE IT TO INSPECT IT ANY FURTHER, WE COULD -- IN OTHER WORDS, PHOTO IT AS WE ORIGINALLY FOUND IT.

AND WHO IS IN THE PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?

THAT IS VICTIM BROWN AND MYSELF.

AND ARE YOU POINTING TO SOMETHING UNDERNEATH THAT BUSH?

YES, I AM.

AND WHAT IS THAT?

IT IS THE GLOVE ON BUNDY.

AND IS THAT THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT YOU TOOK THE PHOTOGRAPHER OVER TO TAKE AT THE DIRECTION OF DETECTIVES VANNATTER AND PHILLIPS?

YES.

AND ARE YOU DRESSED HERE -- YOU RECALL TESTIFYING EARLIER THAT YOU HAD TAKEN YOUR JACKET OFF AT SOME POINT WHEN YOU WERE AT BUNDY EARLIER?

YES.

HAD YOU EVER PUT IT ON AGAIN BETWEEN THAT POINT AND THIS POINT HERE?

NO, I HAD NOT.

SO AT THE TIME THAT YOU FOUND THE GLOVE AT ROCKINGHAM, WHAT WERE YOU WEARING?

I WAS WEARING EXACTLY WHAT IS IN THIS PHOTO; A WHITE SHIRT, TAN SLACKS, LOAFERS.

I'M SORRY?

LOAFERS.

LOAFERS?

LOAFERS, SHOES.

DO YOU STILL HAVE THAT CLOTHING, SIR?

YES, I DO.

THE SHIRT AND THE PANTS?

YES.

SO ARE YOU STILL DRESSED IN THE SAME MANNER IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH BEING SHOWN TO THE JURY NOW AS YOU WERE WHEN YOU FOUND THE GLOVE AT ROCKINGHAM?

YES.

AFTER THAT PHOTOGRAPH WAS TAKEN, SIR, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

I RETURNED TO THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS.

AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE DID YOU RETURN TO THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS?

TO INFORM THE DETECTIVES WHAT I SAW AT BUNDY.

NOW, BEFORE YOU LEFT FOR ROCKINGHAM AGAIN, WHEN YOU WENT OVER TO THE GLOVE ON BUNDY, SIR, WHAT DID YOU DO -- YOU WERE ASKED -- I THINK YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER TO COMPARE IT TO THE ONE AT ROCKINGHAM TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT LOOKED THE SAME?

YES.

AND A MATCH?

YES.

WHAT DID YOU DO IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE OF THAT?

WELL, I HAD TO DETERMINE IF IT WAS A RIGHT OR A LEFT, AND I DID. IT WAS A LEFT-HANDED GLOVE.

AT BUNDY?

YES. IT APPEARED TO BE THE SAME TEXTURE OF LEATHER, SAME COLOR.

UH-HUH.

THE FABRIC, A MESH FABRIC, WAS THE LINING INSIDE, IT APPEARED TO BE THE SAME TEXTURE, DESIGN AND COLOR AS THE GLOVE ON ROCKINGHAM.

DID YOU TOUCH THE GLOVE?

NO.

DID YOU MOVE IT?

YES.

HOW DID YOU DO THAT?

WITH A PEN.

WITH A PEN LIKE THE KIND YOU WRITE WITH?

YES.

OKAY. DID YOU HAVE THE INK PART OUT?

NO.

AND HOW -- WHAT DID YOU DO THAT FOR?

I JUST LIFTED IT AND TURNED IT SO I COULD TELL IF IT WAS A RIGHT OR A LEFT AND TO LOOK AT THE LINING.

OKAY. AND WAS THERE SOMEONE ELSE PRESENT WHEN YOU DID THAT?

YES.

WHO?

THE PHOTOGRAPHER. I BELIEVE HE WAS MR. ROKAHR.

OKAY. AND HOW DID THAT ASSIST YOU IN DETERMINING WHETHER IT WAS A RIGHT OR A LEFT?

EXCUSE ME?

HOW DID THAT HELP YOU, LIFTING IT WITH THE PEN, HOW DID THAT HELP YOU DETERMINE IF IT WAS A RIGHT OR A LEFT?

WELL, I WANTED TO SEE WHERE THE THUMB WAS.

WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE WHERE THE THUMB WAS WITHOUT DOING THAT?

I MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO, BUT I WANTED TO MAKE SURE.

AND WHY DID YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE? WHY WERE YOU GETTING THIS INFORMATION?

WELL, I WAS BEING DIRECTED TO DO THIS AND I FELT THERE WAS PROBABLY A VERY IMPORTANT REASON WHY AND I WANTED TO BE SURE.

AND SO YOU WERE GOING TO REPORT BACK TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

YES.

AND AFTER THAT WAS DONE, SIR, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM?

YES.

DID YOU GO BY YOURSELF?

YES, I DID.

DID YOU ASK ANYONE TO FOLLOW YOU OR PROCEED THERE AS WELL?

YES.

WHO WAS THAT?

THE PHOTOGRAPHER.

AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE?

TO PHOTOGRAPH THE OTHER GLOVE AND FOR WHATEVER OTHER REASON DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND LANGE WANTED HIM AT ROCKINGHAM.

NOW, AFTER YOU -- AFTER YOU LIFTED THE -- PUT YOUR PEN INSIDE TO LIFT THE GLOVE AT BUNDY, DID YOU REPLACE IT IN THE SAME LOCATION?

YES.

AS IT WAS FOUND?

YES.

YOU WENT TO ROCKINGHAM THEN AND YOU TOOK THE PHOTOGRAPHER?

YES.

AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THAT?

TO DOCUMENT THE POSITION OF THE GLOVE ON THE PATHWAY THAT I HAD DISCOVERED EARLIER.

AND WHAT DID YOU DO IN THAT REGARD WHEN YOU GOT TO ROCKINGHAM WITH THE PHOTOGRAPHER?

I BELIEVE I WAS INSTRUCTED TO SHOW HIM WHERE THE GLOVE WAS SO HE COULD PHOTOGRAPH IT, AND HE DID.

DID YOU TAKE HIM DOWN THAT SOUTH PATHWAY?

YES.

AND AGAIN, WHAT ROUTE DID YOU TAKE TO TAKE HIM DOWN THERE?

THE SAME AS THE OTHER THREE DETECTIVES; EASTBOUND ON THE PATH TO THE GLOVE, JUST WEST OF THE GLOVE, AND HE PHOTOGRAPHED IT.

OKAY. AND SO DO THESE -- ARE THESE PHOTOGRAPHS -- ARE ANY OF THESE PHOTOGRAPHS THE ONES THAT WERE TAKEN AT YOUR DIRECTION WITH THE PHOTOGRAPHER AT ROCKINGHAM? AND WHEN I SAY "THESE," I'M REFERRING TO PEOPLE'S 116?

I'M NOT SURE -- I DON'T BELIEVE WE HAD ANY NUMBERS AT THAT TIME.

UH-HUH. AND PHOTOGRAPH E, WHERE THERE IS NO NUMBER THEN, MIGHT THAT BE ONE OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN AT YOUR DIRECTION BY MR. ROKAHR?

YES.

BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. AFTER YOU -- AT THAT TIME DID YOU TOUCH THAT GLOVE?

NO.

DID MR. ROKAHR TOUCH THAT GLOVE?

NO.

AFTER HE TOOK PHOTOGRAPHS, WHAT DID YOU DO?

WE RETURNED TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.

OKAY. NOW, WHEN YOU POINTED THE GLOVE OUT TO MR. ROKAHR FOR THE PURPOSE OF TAKING PHOTOGRAPHS, DID YOU POINT OUT ASPECTS OF THE GLOVE THAT YOU WANTED HIM TO TAKE NOTE OF IN PHOTOGRAPHS?

NO. I BELIEVE I JUST WANTED PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE GLOVE. I DON'T THINK THERE WAS ANYTHING WE COULD DEPICT THAT WE WOULD NEED PHOTOS OF FROM ANY ANGLE.

YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER THAT THE -- THAT YOU NOTICED IT TO BE -- THE GLOVE TO BE MOIST AND STICKY. DO YOU RECALL THAT?

THAT IS THE WAY IT APPEARED, YES.

DID YOU NOTICE WHETHER ANY FINGERS WERE STUCK TOGETHER?

I DO RECALL THAT THERE WAS ONE FINGER THAT WAS STUCK TO ONE PART OF THE GLOVE.

ALL RIGHT. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

WE -- I TOOK THE PHOTOGRAPHER BACK OUT TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE AND I RE-ENTERED THE FRONT DOOR AREA THAT LED INTO THE KITCHEN.

OKAY. AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE?

TO TELL THE DETECTIVES -- WELL, I HAD ALREADY PREVIOUSLY TOLD THEM WHAT I HAD FOUND, BUT THERE WAS A DISCUSSION GOING ON AND I CAME BACK THERE TO REJOIN THEM.

NOW, WHEN YOU WERE -- LET ME BACK UP FOR A SECOND. WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THE GLOVE AT ROCKINGHAM, WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL WHETHER IT WAS RIGHT OR LEFT-HANDED?

THE GLOVE ON ROCKINGHAM WAS A RIGHT-HANDED GLOVE.

AND THE PHOTOGRAPH OF IT SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 116-E -- WELL, ACTUALLY D, E AND F, IS THAT -- DO THOSE DEPICT THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU ORIGINALLY FOUND IT?

YES.

AND SO WERE YOU ABLE TO LOOK AT THE GLOVE AND SEE WHERE THE THUMB WAS LOCATED, WITHOUT LIFTING IT?

YES.

WHO WAS INSIDE THE KITCHEN AREA WHEN YOU WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE AFTER HAVING THE GLOVE PHOTOGRAPHED?

DETECTIVE VANNATTER, DETECTIVE -- DETECTIVE VANNATTER FOR SURE. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS. THAT WAS ALL I BELIEVE I SAW WHEN I WALKED IN THERE.

OKAY. DID YOU HAVE ANY SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS THEN AT THAT POINT AS TO WHAT YOU WERE TO DO?

WELL, AT THAT POINT DETECTIVE VANNATTER MADE A STATEMENT THAT WE ARE GOING TO HANDLE THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS AS A CRIME SCENE AND WE NEEDED TO SEAL IT OFF, SECURE IT.

AND WHAT WERE YOU ASKED TO DO AT THAT POINT, IF ANYTHING?

TO MAKE SURE NO ONE WAS IN THE HOUSE. THERE WAS -- THERE WAS TWO CHILDREN IN THE HOUSE, A MAN THAT I LATER FOUND OUT WAS MR. COWLINGS, MISS ARNELLE SIMPSON WAS IN THE HOUSE. I THINK THAT WAS ALL. WE ASKED THEM THAT IF THEY COULD TAKE THE CHILDREN SOMEWHERE ELSE, THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE, THAT THERE WAS SOME INVESTIGATION THAT WAS GOING TO BE DONE AT THE HOUSE.

AND WHERE WERE YOU?

AT THIS TIME?

UH-HUH.

I BELIEVE I WALKED OUT INTO THE LIVING ROOM AREA. I THINK I TALKED TO MR. COWLINGS THERE. I BELIEVE MISS SIMPSON WAS SOMEWHERE IN THAT GENERAL VICINITY ON THE FIRST FLOOR.

OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU REMAIN AT ROCKINGHAM AT THAT TIME, SIR?

YES, I DID.

AND WHAT WERE YOU DOING?

WAITING FOR A SEARCH WARRANT TO BE WRITTEN.

AND WHO WAS THERE WITH YOU?

AT THAT POINT DETECTIVE VANNATTER WAS THERE MOMENTARILY, THEN HE LEFT. THERE WAS UNIFORMED OFFICERS WITH THE BRONCO AT THE FRONT OF THE ROCKINGHAM GATE, UNIFORMED OFFICERS TO THE FRONT OF ASHFORD. DETECTIVE ROBERTS AT SOME POINT REJOINED ME AT THAT LOCATION AND I DON'T -- THERE WAS SEVERAL DETECTIVES THAT ENDED UP THERE, AND I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY WHAT TIME.

LET ME BACK UP FOR ONE MINUTE. YOU LEFT ROCKINGHAM TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE BUNDY GLOVE TO SEE IF IT MATCHED THE ONE YOU HAD FOUND AT ROCKINGHAM?

YES.

WHEN YOU DID THAT, YOU WENT WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS I THINK YOU TESTIFIED?

YES.

AT SOME POINT, WHEN YOU WERE BACK AT BUNDY TO COMPARE THAT GLOVE TO THE ROCKINGHAM GLOVE, DID YOU -- DO YOU RECALL SEEING DETECTIVE LANGE?

I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I SAW HIM AT THAT POINT.

WHEN YOU RETURNED TO THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION, DO YOU RECALL WHETHER YOU SAW DETECTIVE LANGE THERE?

I CAN'T REMEMBER. I REMEMBER TALKING TO VANNATTER BECAUSE HE SAID WE WERE GOING TO SECURE THIS AND HANDLE IT LIKE A CRIME SCENE, AND THEN I STARTED TALKING TO MR. COWLINGS AND MISS SIMPSON.

THEN DID YOU REMAIN AT ROCKINGHAM FOR THE BALANCE OF THE DAY?

YES.

AND WHAT WERE YOUR FUNCTIONS THERE?

TO MAKE SURE WE JUST KEPT THE LOCATION SECURE WAITING FOR A WARRANT TO BE SIGNED.

OKAY. AND YOU WERE WITH THE UNIFORMED OFFICERS AND AT SOME POINT JOINED BY DETECTIVE ROBERTS?

YES, AND THERE WAS SEVERAL DETECTIVES AFTER THAT.

AND AT SOME POINT IN THE AFTERNOON DO YOU RECALL MEETING ME?

YES, I DO.

OKAY. AND THAT WAS AT ROCKINGHAM?

YES.

WAS THAT THE FIRST TIME WE MET?

YES, IT IS.

DID YOU WALK ME THROUGH THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION TO SHOW WHERE YOU HAD FOUND THE GLOVE AND WHERE YOU HAD CONTACTED MR. KAELIN?

YES.

HOW LONG DID YOU REMAIN AT ROCKINGHAM?

THAT DAY?

YES.

I BELIEVE IT WAS WELL PAST 6:00 IN THE EVENING. I'M NOT POSITIVE ON THAT, BUT I KNOW IT WAS VERY LATE IN THE AFTERNOON AT THE EARLIEST.

OKAY. DO YOU RECALL SEEING MEDIA ARRIVE AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION AT SOME POINT?

YES.

DO YOU RECALL APPROXIMATELY WHEN THAT WAS?

IT SEEMS THAT IT WAS RIGHT AROUND THE NOON HOUR, BUT I'M NOT POSITIVE.

AND AT SOME POINT DID YOU PUT ON YOUR JACKET?

YES.

WHEN WAS THAT?

WHEN THE MEDIA ARRIVED.

AND WHY WAS THAT?

OKAY. IN CASE YOUR BOSS WAS WATCHING?

YES.

OKAY.

THANK YOU, SIR. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.