Sidebar (2)

📄 Sidebar (2) — Monday, June 19, 1995

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C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUN\19\SIDEBAR-2-.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 98 of 167

Date: Monday, June 19, 1995 • Utterances: 74

End-of-day bench conference focused on scheduling remaining prosecution witnesses and mapping out the rest of the People's case. Clark reveals plans to 're-visit the gloves' and discloses a potential new witness about the socks — evidence still 'breaking right now' — prompting Cochran to flag the lack of discovery and demand a hearing before any glove evidence is shown to the jury.

# 1 (The following proceedings were held at the bench:)

# 2 THE COURT:

I have in my notes Weir for--Weir 402 Thursday is our agreement.

# 3 MR. COCHRAN:

I wouldn't mind, Judge, if it's going to save some time--I said Wednesday or Thursday. If Wednesday--I mean if you've got something else planned. If we get to it, we'll be ready on Wednesday.

# 4 THE COURT:

Here's the thing. If I have to put the jury on ice for a whole day, I've got to find something for them to do.

# 5 MR. COCHRAN:

That's fine.

# 6 MS. CLARK:

Well, it would be better I think if we do Weir on Wednesday because, you know, he has an engagement the following week in another state. So the sooner we get him up--

# 7 MR. COCHRAN:

You mean the hearing on Wednesday. When is the Weir hearing?

# 8 MS. CLARK:

He said Thursday. If we could do it on Wednesday instead.

# 9 MR. COCHRAN:

For Weir? Could I--when's the DV hearing? I'm reluctant to say--I presume we can do it, but can I let you know in the morning?

# 10 THE COURT:

Let me know in the morning.

# 11 MR. COCHRAN:

Right. Now you have both the Weir and the--

# 12 THE COURT:

DV.

# 13 MR. COCHRAN:

If we do it on Thursday, you have to put the jury on ice, find something for them to do?

# 14 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 15 MR. COCHRAN:

I'll check and let you know tomorrow morning.

# 16 THE COURT:

Decide.

# 17 MR. COCHRAN:

Decide. She wants a stipulation--I showed her a stipulation regarding crime scene photos, if she wants to save some time. While we're up here, can you tell us what else do you have to the end, go all the way to the end, end of your case? Any surprises? I want to get this over with.

# 18 MS. CLARK:

Revisit the gloves. We're going to revisit the glove.

KEY QUOTE

# 19 THE COURT:

Are you going to get some gloves?

# 20 MS. CLARK:

We all are.

# 21 MR. COCHRAN:

We're not going to get some gloves. Let me tell you something, Judge. We're going to--I think--what I'm saying, if they're going to revisit the gloves, we would like a hearing on that because we tried the gloves on that they claim was part of their case. Everything else we want to be heard on.

# 22 THE COURT:

Let's see what they come up with.

# 23 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm just saying I would like before they parade them out--Mr. Darden, to his credit, did come over to me the last time they brought in gloves that had nothing to do with this case, and I then asked you--and you sent the jurors away, which is very wise. So I don't want them to go whip out some gloves in front of the jury. Could we hear, Judge, just for once and for all--and we're talking to the right person now, Marcia Clark--what they've got to the end and when they're ending? We hear the end of this week. So if that's going to be the case, I mean, I would like to know.

# 24 THE COURT:

No. That's not going to happen.

# 25 MS. CLARK:

I wish it were true, but that's not going to happen.

# 26 MR. COCHRAN:

Give us some idea where we're going so we all can agree.

# 27 THE COURT:

We've got one more shoe person, right?

# 28 MS. CLARK:

Uh-huh.

# 29 THE COURT:

And we have the stipulation, Posner guy. All right. We have the DNA. We have Sims, Sims going to the last testimony, and Weir's going to make sense out of your numbers.

# 30 MR. COCHRAN:

We're going to have a hearing about that.

# 31 THE COURT:

Yes. That's where--yes. We have the hearing. Then Airtouch records regarding the calls that night.

# 32 MS. CLARK:

Right. We have EDTA in there.

# 33 MR. COCHRAN:

Mark.

# 34 MS. CLARK:

I think so.

# 35 MR. COCHRAN:

Rockne wouldn't tell us that this morning.

# 36 MS. CLARK:

This is a team effort, you know what I mean? No decision before its time.

# 37 MR. COCHRAN:

Right now, where are you on EDTA?

# 38 MS. CLARK:

As soon as I talk to my DNA people again, I'll--

# 39 THE COURT:

Then hair and trace.

# 40 MR. COCHRAN:

Have you talked about that yet?

# 41 MS. CLARK:

Yeah. We talked to the boys in New York, who apparently are kicking up a fuss about wanting to stipulate. So I'm going to be calling everybody. It's going to be a long track.

# 42 MR. COCHRAN:

They'll be out here and talk about it. What else do we have?

# 43 MS. CLARK:

That hopefully is it.

# 44 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay.

# 45 MS. CLARK:

We might have--

# 46 MR. COCHRAN:

I'll remember that.

# 47 MS. CLARK:

I know. You know, there might--there might be a witness to testify about these socks. That's something that's breaking right now. The minute we find out that we do have such a witness, we'll let you know.

# 48 THE COURT:

What is this person going to say about the socks?

# 49 MS. CLARK:

I don't know. As soon as we--

# 50 MR. COCHRAN:

It's breaking right now? Sale of the socks? What area are we talking about?

# 51 MS. CLARK:

We're talking about the kind of socks, where they would be purchased.

# 52 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, wait a minute. Where were these socks found?

# 53 MS. CLARK:

In his bedroom.

# 54 MR. COCHRAN:

So we don't have discovery on this.

# 55 MS. CLARK:

We don't have discovery on it yet.

# 56 MR. COCHRAN:

Obviously.

# 57 THE COURT:

Okay.

# 58 MR. COCHRAN:

So now we have general--

# 59 MS. CLARK:

If we have anything to give you, if anything turns up on that, it will be literally within minutes.

# 60 MR. COCHRAN:

Now we have a general understanding of where we are going.

# 61 MS. CLARK:

And the DV which you already know.

# 62 MR. COCHRAN:

Last thing. How long will that take, what you just told us?

# 63 MS. CLARK:

I would guess through the end of next week. It depends. Are you going to have Scheck and Neufeld cross-examine Denise Lewis and Susan Brockbank about the folds in the paper films and scotch tape on the coin envelope? Well, okay. It will be the end of July.

# 64 MR. COCHRAN:

I don't think so. I assume there will be a reasonable amount of cross-examination. You should talk. Mr. Kelberg, who started out like a genius, ended up slithering out of here. I--

# 65 MS. CLARK:

I dispute that characterization vehemently.

# 66 THE COURT:

He had a lot of holes to fill, but he could have combined some of it.

KEY QUOTE

# 67 MR. COCHRAN:

Fine lawyer.

# 68 THE COURT:

Off the record.

# 69 (A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)

# 70 (At 4:50 P.M., an adjournment was taken until, Tuesday, June 20, 1995, 9:00 A.M.)

# 71 APPEARANCES:

Janet M. Moxham, CSR #4588 Christine M. Olson, CSR #2378 official reporters

# 72 FOR THE PEOPLE:

Gil Garcetti, District Attorney by: Marcia R. Clark, William W. Hodgman, Christopher A. Darden, Cheri A. Lewis, Rockne P. Harmon, George W. Clarke, Scott M. Gordon Lydia C. Bodin, Hank M. Goldberg, Alan Yochelson and Darrell S. Mavis, Brian R. Kelberg, and Kenneth E. Lynch, Deputies 18-000 Criminal Courts Building 210 West Temple Street Los Angeles, California 90012

# 73 FOR THE DEFENDANT:

Robert L. Shapiro, Esquire Sara L. Caplan, Esquire 2121 Avenue of the Stars 19th floor Los Angeles, California 90067 Johnnie L. Cochran, Jr., Esquire by: Carl E. Douglas, Esquire Shawn Snider Chapman, Esquire 4929 Wilshire Boulevard Suite 1010 Los Angeles, California 90010 Gerald F. Uelmen, Esquire Robert Kardashian, Esquire Alan Dershowitz, Esquire F. Lee Bailey, Esquire Barry Scheck, Esquire Peter Neufeld, Esquire Robert D. Blasier, Esquire William C. Thompson, Esquire

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I N D E X

Index for volume 170 pages 32595 - 32868

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Day date session page vol.

Monday June 19, 1995 A.M. 32595 170 P.M. 32715 170

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# 74 LEGEND:

Ms. Clark-mc Mr. Hodgman-h Mr. Darden D Mr. Kahn-k Mr. Goldberg-gb Mr. Gordon-g Mr. Shapiro-s Mr. Cochran-c Mr. Douglas-cd Mr. Bailey-b Mr. Uelmen-u Mr. Scheck-bs Mr. Neufeld-n

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CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES

People's witnesses direct cross redirect recross vol.

Bodziak, William J. 32611gb 170 (Resumed) 32718gb 32774b 32844gb

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ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES

WITNESSES direct cross redirect recross vol.

Bodziak, William J. 32611gb 170 (Resumed) 32718gb 32774b 32844gb

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EXHIBITS

People's for in exhibit identification evidence page vol. Page vol.

373 - Chart 32615 170 entitled "What the examination of footwear impression from the crime scene can determine"

374 - Chart 32624 170 entitled "Bruno Magli shoes"

375 - Box and contents 32626 170 shoes "Bruno Magli" blue in color

376 - Chart 32631 170 entitled "Determination of shoe size from a crime scene impression

377 - Chart 32635 170 entitled "How hand-milled molds are made"

378 - Chart 32637 170 entitled "Other factors contributing to shoe sizing"

379 - Shoe soles 32642 170 six pair - sizes 42 thru 47

380 - Chart 32644 170 with 6 photos entitled "Manufacture of Bruno Magli shoes-Silga factory"

381 - 12 shoe lasts 32650 170

382 - Chart 32653 170 entitled "Reverse photographs of soles"

383 - Chart 32657 170 entitled "Shoe print comparison"

384 - Reebok tennis 32663 170 shoes

385-A - Chart 32668 170 entitled "Height calculation chart"

385-B - Chart 32670 170 entitled "Survey of 399 males shoe sizes"

386 - Chart 32675 170 entitled "Footwear impressions after stepping in liquid"

387-A - Chart 32683 170 entitled "875 south Bundy"

387-B - Diagram 32683 170 of Bundy drive

388 - Photograph 32684 170 of a shoeprint

389 - Photograph 32684 170 of a shoeprint

390-A thru 390-P - 32684 170 each a photograph of a shoeprint of a shoeprint

391 - Photograph 32684 170 of a shoeprint

392 - Photograph 32684 170 of a shoeprint

393 - Photograph 32684 170 of a shoeprint

394 - Photograph 32684 170 of a shoeprint

395 - Photograph 32684 170 of a left and right shoeprint

396 - Posterboard 32737 170 with photograph os shoe bottoms of Detectives Phillips, Fuhrman and Roberts

397 - Chart 32647 170 entitled "Bronco carpet, LAPD item no. 33

398 - Chart 32760 170 entitled "Nicole Brown's dress, LAPD item no. 86

399-A - Chart 32766 170 large shoprint overlay

399-B - Chart 32766 170 small shoe heel overlay

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (5)

Marcia Clark

Revisit the gloves. We're going to revisit the glove.

Signals prosecution is not done with glove evidence, immediately putting defense on alert for another glove demonstration.

Johnnie Cochran

I don't want them to go whip out some gloves in front of the jury. Could we hear, Judge, just for once and for all — what they've got to the end and when they're ending?

Cochran invokes the disastrous criminal-trial glove moment as precedent, demanding advance notice and a hearing before any new glove evidence reaches the jury.

Marcia Clark

There might be a witness to testify about these socks. That's something that's breaking right now. The minute we find out that we do have such a witness, we'll let you know.

Late-breaking disclosure of a potential new witness — Cochran immediately flags there is no discovery yet.

Marcia Clark

Are you going to have Scheck and Neufeld cross-examine Denise Lewis and Susan Brockbank about the folds in the paper films and scotch tape on the coin envelope? Well, okay. It will be the end of July.

Sardonic estimate of how long the trial could stretch if defense conducts exhaustive DNA cross-examination.

Lance A. Ito

He had a lot of holes to fill, but he could have combined some of it.

Judge's candid off-the-record assessment of Kelberg's lengthy direct examination style.

Evidence (5)

Informal

The gloves — prosecution signals intent to 're-visit' glove evidence with new gloves

discussed, hearing demanded by defense before jury presentation

Informal

Socks found in OJ's bedroom — potential new witness about type and purchase location

disclosed informally, no discovery provided yet

Informal

Airtouch cellular records from the night of the murders

listed as upcoming prosecution evidence

Informal

EDTA evidence (blood preservative testing)

discussed as upcoming, Clark awaiting confirmation from DNA team

Informal

Crime scene photos — stipulation proposed by defense

Cochran mentions stipulation to save time

Notable Exchanges (4)

Johnnie Cochran•Marcia Clark•Lance A. Ito

Cochran presses Clark to reveal the full remaining prosecution case. Clark maps it out: shoe witness, Posner stipulation, DNA (Sims), Weir, Airtouch records, EDTA, hair and trace — and then the gloves.

strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Marcia Clark

Clark discloses a possible new sock witness 'breaking right now.' Cochran immediately notes there is no discovery on it. Clark promises disclosure 'within minutes' if the witness materializes.

tense

Johnnie Cochran•Lance A. Ito•Marcia Clark

Cochran praises Darden for previously warning him about irrelevant gloves and urges the court to require a hearing before any new glove evidence reaches the jury.

strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Marcia Clark•Lance A. Ito

Off-the-record riff on Kelberg's performance — Cochran calls him a 'fine lawyer' after saying he 'slithered out.' Clark 'vehemently disputes' Cochran's characterization. Ito agrees Kelberg could have been more efficient.

light

Light Moments (3)

Marcia Clark

Clark jokes that if Scheck and Neufeld cross-examine every DNA witness about paper folds and scotch tape on coin envelopes, the trial will last until the end of July.

Johnnie Cochran

Cochran calls Kelberg a 'fine lawyer' immediately after saying he 'ended up slithering out of here,' prompting Clark to vehemently dispute the characterization and Ito to weigh in candidly off the record.

Marcia Clark

Clark, on her team's uncertainty about EDTA: 'This is a team effort, you know what I mean? No decision before its time.'

Objections

None recorded

Proceeding 6445 • 74 utterances

Criminal Trial

Department 103