Direct examination of Willie Ford (part 2)

📄 Direct examination of Willie Ford (part 2) — Thursday, July 20, 1995

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C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\20\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-WILLIE-F.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 119 of 167

◀ Sidebar: evidence admissibility Sidebar: expert witness scheduling ▶

Witness: Willie Ford
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Thursday, July 20, 1995 • Utterances: 182

Johnnie Cochran continued his direct examination of LAPD photographer Willie Ford, using a videotape (Defense 1068) of the Rockingham crime scene to establish when and where Ford interacted with criminalist Dennis Fung on June 13, 1994. The most damaging moment came when Ford admitted that a conversation he identified between himself and Fung in the upstairs hallway — around 4:11 PM — had never been disclosed to anyone before this testimony, and that he had never spoken with the prosecution about it.

# 1 (The following proceedings were held in open court:)

# 2 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you, counsel. Proceed.

# 3 MR. COCHRAN:

May I proceed? There is conversation going on, your Honor.

# 4 (Brief pause.)

# 5 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, Mr. Ford, I want to approach you, and first of all, I want to show you a log and ask you if you have ever seen this log which is--

# 6 THE COURT:

1091.

# 7 MR. COCHRAN:

--Defense 1091. Thank you, your Honor.

# 8 MR. COCHRAN:

And place this before you and if you need some explanation regarding what that is, I will be glad to try and explain.

# 9 MR. FORD:

No, I haven't seen this log.

# 10 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Did you ever at any time have occasion to watch any of the testimony of Andrea Mazzola when she testified here in court under oath regarding the times that she picked up certain items at Rockingham?

# 11 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor.

# 12 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 13 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 14 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you ever at any time have occasion to talk with Andrea Mazzola regarding her testimony?

# 15 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 16 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk to her on the date of June 13th, 1994?

# 17 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 18 MR. COCHRAN:

You have not talked to her at all?

# 19 MR. FORD:

Not at all.

# 20 MR. COCHRAN:

With regard to Dennis Fung, have you had occasion to talk with Dennis Fung regarding times that he collected items at Rockingham on June 13th, 1994?

# 21 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 22 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk to Dennis Fung on June 13th, `94?

# 23 MR. FORD:

Yes, sir.

# 24 MR. COCHRAN:

And you talked to him while you were still out at the scene?

# 25 MR. FORD:

Yes.

# 26 MR. COCHRAN:

And with regard to the types of items that he picked up, allegedly picked up on that date, did you have occasion to talk to him about those items?

# 27 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 28 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk to Mr. Fung around the time you first got there or near the time that you were leaving?

# 29 MR. FORD:

No.

# 30 MR. COCHRAN:

You can answer that yes or no.

# 31 MR. FORD:

That is no.

# 32 MR. COCHRAN:

You did not talk to him when you first got there?

# 33 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 34 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk to him near the time that you were leaving?

# 35 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 36 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk to him during the time that you were there?

# 37 MR. FORD:

Yes.

# 38 MR. COCHRAN:

What part of the house were you in when you talked to him?

# 39 MR. FORD:

Different parts of the house.

# 40 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk to him when you were downstairs then?

# 41 MR. FORD:

Yes.

# 42 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk to him when you were upstairs?

# 43 MR. FORD:

Yes.

# 44 MR. COCHRAN:

What time upstairs did you talk to him?

# 45 MR. FORD:

I have no idea.

# 46 MR. COCHRAN:

You have no idea what time it was?

# 47 MR. FORD:

No. This was not a conversation.

KEY QUOTE

# 48 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, you talked to him but it was not a conversation?

# 49 MR. FORD:

Yes, sir.

# 50 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you ask him any questions?

# 51 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 52 MR. COCHRAN:

Did he ask you any questions?

# 53 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 54 MR. COCHRAN:

The time when you talked to Mr. Fung or there was conversation with Mr. Fung, who else was present?

# 55 MR. FORD:

I would say my boss and Detective Haro, they were in the vicinity.

# 56 MR. COCHRAN:

In the vicinity?

# 57 MR. FORD:

Yes.

# 58 MR. COCHRAN:

But you can give us no idea of the time?

# 59 MR. FORD:

I couldn't tell you any exact time.

# 60 MR. COCHRAN:

If you were to look at that video again can you tell us where you were in the house at the time you were talking to Mr. Fung?

# 61 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 62 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, let me see if I can refresh your recollection.

# 63 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 64 MR. DARDEN:

I'm going to object, your Honor, improper foundation to refresh his recollection.

# 65 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 66 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 67 MR. COCHRAN:

I want you to take a look at this video and I'm going to ask you if you talked to Fung during any of these points, if I might. Did you talk to Detective Luper about items you had photographed?

# 68 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 69 MR. COCHRAN:

You didn't at all?

# 70 MR. FORD:

No.

# 71 MR. COCHRAN:

Not that day or ever?

# 72 MR. FORD:

Not ever.

# 73 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, we are referring to exhibit no. 1068, your Honor, Defense.

# 74 MR. COCHRAN:

I think Mr. Harris has 1068 now.

# 75 (At 10:04 A.M., Defense exhibit 1068, a videotape, was played.)

# 76 MR. COCHRAN:

I want to ask you some questions regarding this. Again, this is about 4:08 and you are going up the stairs; is that correct?

# 77 MR. FORD:

Yes.

# 78 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, this conversation that--whatever you said to Mr. Fung or whatever he said to you, which would be hearsay, did it take place while you were on the stairs there going up?

# 79 MR. FORD:

It might have.

# 80 MR. COCHRAN:

You don't know now?

# 81 MR. FORD:

No.

# 82 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 83 (The videotape continues playing.)

# 84 MR. COCHRAN:

There again you are shooting the photographs on the wall or the pictures on the wall; is that correct?

# 85 MR. FORD:

Yes, sir.

# 86 MR. COCHRAN:

Per the instructions. Did it take place in that room there?

# 87 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 88 MR. COCHRAN:

In the children's rooms?

# 89 MR. FORD:

No.

# 90 MR. COCHRAN:

The answer was no?

# 91 MR. FORD:

No.

# 92 (The videotape continues playing.)

# 93 MR. COCHRAN:

Did it take place in that room there?

# 94 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 95 MR. COCHRAN:

That is about 4:09 P.M., right?

# 96 MR. FORD:

Yes.

# 97 (The videotape continues playing.)

# 98 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk to him in that room?

# 99 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 100 MR. COCHRAN:

Who is that in the background of that photograph?

# 101 MR. FORD:

Looks like Detective Haro and my boss, David Adkins.

# 102 MR. COCHRAN:

Haro and Adkins?

# 103 MR. FORD:

Yes, sir.

# 104 MR. COCHRAN:

Was Dennis Fung in any of these photographs?

# 105 MR. FORD:

No.

# 106 (The videotape continues playing.)

# 107 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk to him in that room?

# 108 MR. FORD:

Not in that room. To my best recollection I would say it would be in that hallway just prior to this scene here.

# 109 MR. COCHRAN:

Just prior to this scene?

# 110 MR. FORD:

Yes.

# 111 MR. COCHRAN:

If we can back it up again and you tell us when.

# 112 MR. FORD:

I was in the hallway.

# 113 MR. COCHRAN:

I want you to look at the thing and try to show us where you were, sir.

# 114 MR. FORD:

Where the pictures on the wall--about right there.

# 115 MR. COCHRAN:

Right in this area?

# 116 MR. FORD:

Uh-huh.

# 117 MR. COCHRAN:

Let's stop it here. During this area right here, (Indicating)?

# 118 MR. FORD:

Yes, sir.

# 119 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Let's stop it. Stop it, Mr. Harris.

# 120 MR. COCHRAN:

So it is your testimony that you believe that you had a conversation or there were some words spoken between you and Mr. Fung?

# 121 MR. FORD:

Yes.

# 122 MR. COCHRAN:

At that location?

# 123 MR. FORD:

Yes, sir.

# 124 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you have that written in any report anywhere?

# 125 MR. FORD:

Yes, sir.

# 126 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you ever testify about that before?

# 127 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 128 MR. COCHRAN:

When is the first time you told anybody about that, this alleged conversation that took place in that hallway there at about 4:11 on June 13th?

# 129 MR. FORD:

I haven't told anybody about it.

KEY QUOTE

# 130 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk to Mr. Darden about that on Monday when you were up here, or Tuesday?

# 131 MR. FORD:

No.

# 132 MR. COCHRAN:

You never told anybody about that? We are hearing it for the first time; is that right?

# 133 MR. FORD:

Yes.

# 134 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Who was present when you had this conversation or talk with Mr. Fung?

# 135 MR. FORD:

I would say--

# 136 MR. DARDEN:

Your Honor, can we remove the image?

# 137 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm going to continue it on.

# 138 THE COURT:

The record should reflect that Mr. Ford has testified at a point on the tape that is 3:11 P.M. proceed.

# 139 MR. COCHRAN:

You can proceed.

# 140 MR. COCHRAN:

Who else was present during this time at about 4:11 P.M. on June 13th?

# 141 MR. FORD:

My boss, David Adkins, and Detective Haro was in the area.

# 142 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. When they are standing close by? However, were they aware--

# 143 MR. FORD:

I have no idea. I'm looking through the view finder of the camera. All I know, they were upstairs with me.

# 144 MR. COCHRAN:

You were actually focusing on what you were shooting; is that correct?

# 145 MR. FORD:

Yes.

# 146 MR. COCHRAN:

So you were not aware of where everybody was at that point; is that correct?

# 147 MR. FORD:

Exactly.

# 148 MR. COCHRAN:

When you continued on this particular photograph as you went into the bedroom--

# 149 MR. FORD:

Yes.

# 150 MR. COCHRAN:

--come to that in just a moment, Mr. Simpson's bedroom--

# 151 (The videotape continues playing.)

# 152 MR. FORD:

I think there is another conversation at this point also.

KEY QUOTE

# 153 MR. COCHRAN:

You think there was some conversation or some words spoken?

# 154 MR. FORD:

Yes, sir.

# 155 MR. COCHRAN:

At about point here at about 4:12 here with Mr. Fung?

# 156 THE COURT:

All right. This is what appears to be the first bathroom entering Mr. Simpson's bedroom suite.

# 157 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that correct?

# 158 MR. FORD:

Yes, sir.

# 159 MR. DARDEN:

Your Honor, may I have a moment?

# 160 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 161 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 162 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, with regard to--this is Mr. Simpson's part of his bedroom suite; is that correct?

# 163 MR. FORD:

Yes, sir.

# 164 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you have any conversation with Mr. Fung during that time?

# 165 MR. FORD:

No. Mr. Fung is gone at this time.

# 166 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, at 4:13, whatever conversation you had, at the time that you were in that bedroom, it is your testimony that Dennis Fung was gone at that point?

# 167 MR. FORD:

Yes, sir.

# 168 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you discuss with Mr. Fung or have you discussed with Mr. Fung as to the time he told this jury that he went upstairs on that date?

# 169 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor.

# 170 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm asking.

# 171 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 172 MR. COCHRAN:

Have you discussed that with him?

# 173 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 174 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you ever see his testimony in that regard?

# 175 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 176 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you ever review any log regarding the time he was upstairs?

# 177 MR. FORD:

No, sir.

# 178 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, may we approach on one other matter?

# 179 THE COURT:

All right. Without the reporter.

# 180 (A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)

# 181 (The following proceedings were held in open court:)

# 182 THE COURT:

Madam reporter.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Willie Ford

This was not a conversation.

Ford's odd attempt to minimize his acknowledged interaction with Fung — he admitted they 'talked' but denied it was a 'conversation,' a distinction Cochran immediately seized on.

Willie Ford

I haven't told anybody about it.

Ford admits that his recollection of exchanging words with Fung in the upstairs hallway — just identified for the first time while watching the videotape — had never been disclosed to the prosecution or anyone else.

Johnnie Cochran

We are hearing it for the first time; is that right?

Cochran underscores the disclosure's surprise value — this contact between the photographer and the evidence collector at a critical timeline point had been hidden or forgotten until this moment.

Willie Ford

I think there is another conversation at this point also.

Ford volunteers a second previously undisclosed interaction with Fung, this time near the entrance to Simpson's bedroom suite around 4:12 PM — compounding the defense's timeline narrative.

Evidence (2)

Defense 1091

A log — contents not specified, shown to Ford to see if he recognized it

Shown to witness; Ford denied ever having seen it

Defense 1068

Videotape of the Rockingham crime scene documentation on June 13, 1994, recording Ford's movements through the house while photographing

Played in court to refresh Ford's recollection and identify the location and approximate time of his interaction with Dennis Fung

Notable Exchanges (2)

Johnnie Cochran•Willie Ford

Cochran walks Ford through the videotape frame by frame, ultimately getting Ford to identify a specific hallway location (~4:11 PM) where words were exchanged with Fung — and then extracting the admission that Ford had never told anyone about this interaction before, not even the prosecutors who called him as a witness.

strategic

Willie Ford•Johnnie Cochran

Ford spontaneously volunteers that he believes there was 'another conversation at this point also' near the entrance to Simpson's bedroom suite around 4:12 PM, which Cochran had not yet asked about — a second previously undisclosed Fung interaction.

revealing

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Dennis Fung

Prior inconsistent statement / timeline contradiction

By establishing that Ford interacted with Fung in the upstairs hallway around 4:11–4:12 PM — and that Fung was gone by 4:13 — Cochran implicitly challenges Fung's prior testimony about when he went upstairs and what he collected there, suggesting Fung's timeline was fabricated or inconsistent with the video evidence.

⚔ Willie Ford

Non-disclosure / surprise testimony

Cochran established that Ford never previously disclosed his interaction with Fung to prosecutors, police, or anyone else — undermining Ford's reliability as a witness and raising questions about what else may be undisclosed.

Objections

3 objections (0 sustained, 3 overruled)

Proceeding 6968 • 182 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103