Direct examination of Ron Phillips (part 4)

📄 Direct examination of Ron Phillips (part 4) — Thursday, February 16, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\FEB\16\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-RON-PHIL.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 20 of 167

◀ Sidebar: hearsay objection (1) Sidebar: coroner transcript foundation ▶

Witness: Det. Ronald Phillips
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, February 16, 1995 • Utterances: 291

Detective Ron Phillips describes OJ Simpson's notably incurious response when told by phone that Nicole had been murdered — Simpson asked nothing about how, when, where, or by whom. Phillips then recounts following Fuhrman down the narrow, debris-covered south walkway at Rockingham to discover the bloody glove near the air conditioning unit outside Kato Kaelin's room, and explains the subsequent chain of detectives viewing the glove and returning to Bundy.

# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

# 2 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. PROCEED.

# 3 MS. CLARK:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 4 Q:

DID MR. SIMPSON ASK YOU HOW SHE WAS KILLED?

# 5 A:

NO.

# 6 Q:

DID HE ASK YOU WHEN SHE WAS KILLED?

# 7 A:

NO.

# 8 Q:

DID HE ASK YOU IF YOU HAD ANY IDEA WHO HAD DONE IT?

# 9 A:

NO.

# 10 Q:

DID HE ASK YOU WHERE IT HAD OCCURRED?

# 11 A:

NO.

# 12 Q:

DID HE ASK YOU ANYTHING ABOUT THE CIRCUMSTANCE OF HOW HIS EX-WIFE HAD BEEN KILLED?

# 13 A:

NO.

# 14 Q:

DID HE PROCEED TO SPEAK WITH ARNELLE AND GIVE HER INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT THE CHILDREN?

# 15 MR. COCHRAN:

HOW WOULD HE KNOW, YOUR HONOR?

# 16 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 17 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: SORRY. DID ARNELLE HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM AFTER YOU SPOKE TO HIM?

# 18 A:

I HANDED THE PHONE BACK TO HER AND I ASSUME SHE TALKED TO HIM. I DIDN'T LISTEN TO IT.

# 19 Q:

DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE SPEAKING TO THE DEFENDANT, DO YOU KNOW OR COULD YOU SEE WHERE ARNELLE WAS?

# 20 A:

YES. SHE WAS STANDING DIRECTLY BEHIND ME AND LISTENING TO MY CONVERSATION. TOM LANGE WAS ALSO INFORMING HER OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED AND SHE BECAME VERY HYSTERICAL -- NOT HYSTERICAL, BUT VERY UPSET.

# 21 MS. CLARK:

MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

# 22 THE COURT:

CERTAINLY.

# 23 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 24 MS. CLARK:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 25 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AFTER YOU HANDED THE PHONE TO ARNELLE, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

# 26 A:

THEY KEPT TALKING TO ARNELLE AND I BELIEVE SHE WANTED TO MAKE A PHONE CALL TO A MAN THAT SHE ONLY DESCRIBED AS A.C., WHICH SHE DID, AND THEN I WALKED OUT OF THE KITCHEN.

# 27 Q:

WHERE DID YOU GO?

# 28 A:

I JUST WENT OVER TO A DOORWAY THAT LED OUT TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE. IT WAS KIND OF A -- I DON'T KNOW -- PATIO TYPE -- WELL, IT IS OFF THE KITCHEN, LEADS OUT TO THE ROCKINGHAM GATE, TOWARD THE ROCKINGHAM GATE.

# 29 Q:

AND WHAT WERE YOU DOING OUT THERE?

# 30 A:

JUST STANDING THERE. TOM LANGE WAS BASICALLY TALKING TO ARNELLE AND THERE WAS NOTHING LEFT FOR ME TO DO, NOTHING FOR ME TO DO AT THAT TIME.

# 31 Q:

WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

# 32 A:

I WAS APPROACHED BY MARK FUHRMAN, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WHO WALKED UP TO ME AND SAID --

# 33 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT TO WHAT HE SAID; HEARSAY.

# 34 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 35 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN TELL YOU SOMETHING?

# 36 A:

YES, HE DID.

# 37 MS. CLARK:

YOUR HONOR, THIS WOULD GO TO EXPLAIN SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT.

# 38 MR. COCHRAN:

HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR. TELLS US WHAT HAPPENED.

# 39 THE COURT:

I THINK YOU CAN HANDLE THIS WITHOUT DOING THAT.

# 40 MS. CLARK:

OKAY.

# 41 Q:

AFTER HE TOLD YOU THAT, WHATEVER HE DID, WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 42 A:

I FOLLOWED HIM.

# 43 Q:

OKAY. AND BASED ON WHAT HE TOLD YOU, WHY DID YOU FOLLOW HIM?

# 44 A:

HE WANTED TO SHOW ME SOMETHING.

# 45 Q:

WHERE DID YOU GO?

# 46 A:

HE TOOK ME AROUND TO THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE, TO A WALKWAY ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE THAT RAN EAST BEHIND THE RESIDENCE. WE WALKED BACK THERE FOR A CONSIDERABLE DISTANCE UNTIL WE GOT TO A CERTAIN POINT AND THEN HE STOPPED AND HE POINTED OUT AN OBJECT TO ME.

# 47 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 48 MS. CLARK:

YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO PUT ON THE ELMO A DIAGRAM THAT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY MARKED AND I'M GOING TO ASK THAT THIS BE MARKED AS THE "A" VERSION OF THAT.

# 49 THE COURT:

THIS WOULD BE -- HAVE YOU ALREADY USED THE DIAGRAM?

# 50 MS. CLARK:

I HAVE, YOUR HONOR. THE DIAGRAM, 66.

# 51 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 66-A. YOU WANT THE ELMO VERSION?

# 52 MS. CLARK:

YES, THANK YOU.

# 53 THE COURT:

MISS ROBERTSON, DO WE HAVE THAT?

# 54 THE CLERK:

YES.

# 55 (PEO'S 66-A FOR ID = DIAGRAM)

# 56 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT, SIR. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE DIAGRAM THAT WE HAVE PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 66?

# 57 A:

YES.

# 58 Q:

AND CAN YOU SEE THE AREA THAT YOU HAVE TOLD US YOU JUST WALKED DOWN TO FOLLOW DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

# 59 A:

YES.

# 60 Q:

CAN YOU USE THE POINTER TO POINT THAT OUT FOR US?

# 61 A:

I CAME OUT OF THE RESIDENCE, WALKED AROUND THE GARAGE, DOWN THIS LONG WALKWAY AND WENT BACK TO HERE, (INDICATING), TO WHERE THERE WAS AN AIR CONDITIONING UNIT, AND THAT IS WHERE HE POINTED OUT AN OBJECT TO ME.

# 62 Q:

OKAY. WOULD YOU PLEASE, IF YOU COULD, LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR, SIR, AND DIRECT THE POINTER TO SHOW US WHERE YOU EXITED THE RESIDENCE AND WHAT YOUR PATH WAS?

# 63 A:

OKAY. YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK UP TO WHERE THE BREAKFAST AREA IS.

# 64 Q:

BREAKFAST AREA?

# 65 A:

THAT IS WHERE WE EXITED THAT RESIDENCE, (INDICATING).

# 66 Q:

OKAY. AND THEN YOU WENT OUT, YOU SAID, INTO THE DRIVEWAY?

# 67 A:

YES.

# 68 Q:

AND AROUND THE GARAGE?

# 69 A:

YES.

# 70 Q:

TELL US WHERE YOU WENT NEXT.

# 71 A:

DOWN THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GARAGE EASTBOUND ALL THE WAY BACK. CONTINUE WALKING. CONTINUING TO FARTHER.

# 72 THE COURT:

WELL, WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM HERE BECAUSE OUR --

# 73 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

IF I MAY RESIZE A LITTLE.

# 74 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

I WALKED STRAIGHTER THAN THAT.

# 75 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 76 MS. CLARK:

WHY DON'T WE TRY THAT AGAIN. OKAY?

# 77 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

SURE.

# 78 THE COURT:

HOW MANY TIMES DOES HE CRASH INTO THE WALL? RIGHT?

KEY QUOTE

# 79 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

JUST THE ONE TIME IN THE GARAGE.

KEY QUOTE

# 80 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND YOU TELL THE POINTER WHEN TO STOP.

# 81 A:

RIGHT ABOUT THERE, (INDICATING).

# 82 MS. CLARK:

IF THIS COULD BE 66-A, YOUR HONOR.

# 83 THE COURT:

YES.

# 84 MS. CLARK:

AND COULD WE HAVE THE INITIALS "R.P." ON THAT.

# 85 Q:

COULD YOU SIR, DESCRIBE FOR US THE CONDITION OF THE WALKWAY, THAT SOUTH WALKWAY THAT YOUR PATH HAS BEEN TRACED ON?

# 86 A:

WELL, IT IS A CONCRETE WALKWAY. IT IS QUITE NARROW. IT IS PROBABLY AT SOME POINT ONLY A COUPLE OF FEET WIDE, SOME PLACES SEVERAL MORE FEET WIDE, BUT IT HAS A LOT OF DEBRIS, LEAVES AND THINGS ON THE WALKWAY AS YOU WALK PAST. THERE IS A LOT OF OVERHANGING SHRUBBERY THAT HANGS FROM THE GATE OR THE FENCE THAT IS JUST TO YOUR RIGHT AS YOU ARE WALKING DOWN THAT HANGS DOWN AND SOME OF IT ALMOST TOUCHES THE HOUSE.

# 87 Q:

AND THE WALKWAY ITSELF, SIR, WAS IT CLEAN AND SWEPT WHEN YOU WALKED DOWN THERE THAT MORNING ON JUNE 13TH?

# 88 A:

NO, IT WAS NOT.

# 89 Q:

WHAT WAS THE CONDITION?

# 90 A:

AS I SAID, IT HAD LEAVES AND TWIGS AND DIRT AND OTHER THINGS THAT WERE BACK IN THERE.

# 91 MS. CLARK:

YOUR HONOR, I HAVE HERE ANOTHER BOARD THAT HAS --

# 92 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 93 MS. CLARK:

ASK THAT IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 69. 68.

# 94 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 68, BOARD WITH FOUR PHOTOS, WITHOUT A, B AND C --

# 95 MS. CLARK:

I DID ASK FOR IT, BUT THEY WILL ALL BE DONE, YOUR HONOR. I'M SORRY.

# 96 THE COURT:

SORRY. JUST MAKES IT EASIER FOR ALL OF US.

# 97 MS. CLARK:

IT DOES. IT DOES.

# 98 (PEO'S 68 FOR ID = POSTERBOARD W/4 PHOTOS)

# 99 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: ARE YOU LOOKING AT THOSE, SIR?

# 100 A:

YES, I AM.

# 101 MS. CLARK:

THEY WILL BE LABELED FROM LEFT TO RIGHT AT THE TOP A AND B, LEFT TO RIGHT AT THE BOTTOM, C AND D.

# 102 Q:

WHAT IS THE LOCATION SHOWN IN THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS?

# 103 A:

THIS IS THE WALKWAY TO THE SOUTH OF THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS THAT I PREVIOUSLY STATED THAT I HAD WALKED DOWN.

# 104 Q:

AND DOES THAT APPEAR TO ACCURATELY DEPICT THE CONDITION THAT YOU FOUND THE WALKWAY IN THAT MORNING?

# 105 A:

YES, IT DOES.

# 106 Q:

IN PHOTOGRAPH A, LET'S PUT IT UP ON THE SCREEN.

# 107 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

2, PLEASE.

# 108 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: IF YOU WOULD LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR. DO YOU SEE THAT BOX HANGING OUT OF THE WALL THERE?

# 109 A:

YES.

# 110 Q:

WHAT IS THAT?

# 111 A:

IT IS AN AIR CONDITIONING UNIT.

# 112 Q:

OKAY. AND WAS THAT UNIT FOR KATO KAELIN'S ROOM?

# 113 A:

I WOULD HAVE TO ASSUME THAT IS FOR KATO KAELIN'S ROOM, YES.

# 114 Q:

DID YOU EVER GO INTO HIS ROOM?

# 115 A:

NO.

# 116 MS. CLARK:

NOW --

# 117 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 118 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND PHOTOGRAPH B, DID YOU SEE THAT AREA OF THE GROUND, SIR?

# 119 A:

YES.

# 120 Q:

IS THAT THE CONDITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND IT ON JUNE THE 13TH?

# 121 A:

YES.

# 122 MS. CLARK:

# 123 Q:

AND PHOTOGRAPH C?

# 124 A:

YES.

# 125 Q:

IS THAT THE POSITION AND THE CONDITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND THE GLOVE?

# 126 A:

THAT IS THE ITEM THAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN HAD POINTED OUT TO ME, YES.

# 127 Q:

WHEN WERE YOU -- AS YOU PROCEEDED DOWN THE WALKWAY, SIR, DO YOU RECALL WHETHER THERE WERE ANY GATES THAT YOU -- ANY GATES THAT YOU HAD TO WALK THROUGH?

# 128 A:

I BELIEVE THERE WAS TWO GATES THAT WE HAD TO WALK THROUGH THAT I REMEMBER. THERE MAY BE MORE.

# 129 Q:

WERE EITHER ONE OF THEM -- WAS THERE A LOCK ON EITHER ONE OF THEM OR WERE THEY OPENED?

# 130 A:

THEY WERE OPENED.

# 131 Q:

WHEN YOU WALKED THROUGH -- GO BACK TO THE DIAGRAM IF YOU DON'T MIND. WHEN YOU WALKED THROUGH THE FIRST GATE, SIR, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE GLOVE ON THE WALKWAY?

# 132 A:

NO.

# 133 Q:

WHEN YOU WALKED THROUGH THE SECOND GATE, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE GLOVE ON THE WALKWAY?

# 134 A:

NO.

# 135 Q:

HOW CLOSE TO THE GLOVE DID YOU GET BEFORE YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE IT?

# 136 A:

QUITE A WAYS -- I MEAN, VERY CLOSE TO IT. IT WAS -- IT WAS LIGHT OUTSIDE, BUT IT WAS STILL DARK IN THAT AREA BECAUSE OF THE OVERHANGING SHRUBBERY. BASICALLY, I HAD NEVER SEEN THIS ITEM BEFORE, SO I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE TO LOOK.

# 137 Q:

AND SO HOW CLOSE DID YOU HAVE TO GET TO IT BEFORE YOU ACTUALLY SAW IT?

# 138 A:

I GOT TO IT WITHIN ABOUT POSSIBLY THREE OR FOUR FEET.

# 139 Q:

DID YOU TOUCH IT?

# 140 A:

NO.

# 141 Q:

AND WHEN YOU GOT TO WITHIN THREE OR FOUR FEET OF IT, WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 142 A:

I STOOD THERE AND SHINED A FLASHLIGHT ON IT AND OBSERVED WHAT IT APPEARED TO BE AND THEN TOLD MARK -- I SAYS, "LET'S GO BACK TO THE HOUSE AND INFORM VANNATTER AND LANGE OF THIS."

KEY QUOTE

# 143 Q:

DID YOU THINK THAT WAS SIGNIFICANT, THAT GLOVE?

# 144 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT TO THAT, YOUR HONOR.

# 145 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 146 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

WELL, IT APPEARED TO BE SOME -- I'M SORRY.

# 147 MR. COCHRAN:

NONRESPONSIVE.

# 148 THE COURT:

YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION YES OR NO. DID IT APPEAR TO YOU TO BE SIGNIFICANT?

# 149 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

YES.

# 150 THE COURT:

NEXT QUESTION.

# 151 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND WHY WAS IT SIGNIFICANT TO YOU?

# 152 A:

IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS ALSO THE SAME TYPE OF GLOVE THAT WE HAD SEEN AT THE BUNDY LOCATION.

KEY QUOTE

# 153 Q:

DID YOU EVER GO BACK FARTHER THAN THAT GLOVE TO SEE WHAT WAS BEHIND THE GUEST UNITS IN THAT HOUSE?

# 154 A:

NO.

# 155 Q:

AFTER YOU GOT WITHIN THREE TO FOUR FEET OF THE GLOVE, WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 156 A:

WALKED AROUND -- TURNED AROUND AND WENT BACK INTO THE HOUSE.

# 157 Q:

AND HOW DID YOU ENTER THE HOUSE?

# 158 A:

THROUGH THE SAME DOOR I HAD EXITED.

# 159 Q:

THAT BREAKFAST AREA?

# 160 A:

YES.

# 161 Q:

DID YOU GIVE SOME INSTRUCTION TO MARK FUHRMAN?

# 162 A:

HE CAME WITH ME.

# 163 Q:

RIGHT. AFTER SEEING THE GLOVE, DID YOU GIVE HIM SOME INSTRUCTION?

# 164 A:

I GAVE HIM SOME INSTRUCTIONS THAT WE WERE TO NOTIFY VANNATTER AND LANGE OF WHAT HE HAD FOUND AND WHAT HE HAD SHOWED ME.

# 165 Q:

AND SO THEN DID BOTH YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN GO BACK INTO THE HOUSE?

# 166 A:

YES.

# 167 Q:

WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

# 168 A:

DETECTIVE FUHRMAN I BELIEVE WALKED UP TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER FIRST AND TOLD HIM WHAT HE HAD BASICALLY TOLD ME, AND THEN VANNATTER -- I MEAN, YEAH, VANNATTER AND FUHRMAN THEN LEFT AND WENT TO THE SAME -- LOOKED LIKE THEY WERE GOING TO GO TO THE SAME LOCATION THAT I HAD, BUT I DID NOT GO WITH THEM.

# 169 Q:

WHERE DID YOU GO?

# 170 A:

STAYED WHERE I WAS AT, RIGHT BY THE KITCHEN DOOR, KITCHEN BREAKFAST DOOR.

# 171 Q:

WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

# 172 A:

I STAYED THERE. A SHORT TIME LATER VANNATTER AND FUHRMAN CAME BACK AND THEY HAD A CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE LANGE AND THEN LANGE AND FUHRMAN TOOK OFF THE SAME DIRECTION THAT WE HAD GONE BEFORE, BUT I DIDN'T GO WITH THEM AGAIN.

# 173 Q:

DID YOU STAY IN FRONT WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

# 174 A:

I DON'T KNOW IF VANNATTER WAS WITH ME THE WHOLE TIME. I WAS JUST BASICALLY STANDING AROUND, YOU KNOW, TALKING TO PEOPLE AT DIFFERENT TIMES, BUT NOT DOING ANYTHING.

# 175 Q:

WHAT WERE YOU -- WHERE WERE YOU STANDING AROUND IN? WHAT AREA?

# 176 A:

IN THAT BREAKFAST AREA, THE FRONT PART OF THE HOUSE, FRONT PART OF THE RESIDENCE.

# 177 Q:

OKAY.

# 178 A:

THAT BREAKFAST AREA.

# 179 Q:

NOW, THIS WAS NOT YOUR CASE ANY MORE; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 180 A:

NOT MY CASE AT ALL.

# 181 Q:

SO WHY WERE YOU STILL THERE?

# 182 A:

BECAUSE MY PARTNER, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WAS STILL SHOWING VANNATTER AND LANGE CERTAIN ITEMS THAT HE HAD FOUND AND WE HAD NOT LEFT THE LOCATION YET FROM WHEN WE ARRIVED.

# 183 Q:

NOW, LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING, SIR. YOU HAD SAID EARLIER THAT THE WAY YOU NEED TO MAKE NOTIFICATION IS IN PERSON. THAT IS THE WAY THAT IS PREFERRED; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 184 A:

IF IT IS PRACTICAL YOU DO IT IN PERSON, YES.

# 185 Q:

BUT YOU DIDN'T WIND UP DOING IT THAT WAY, DID YOU?

# 186 A:

NO, I DIDN'T.

# 187 Q:

WHY NOT?

# 188 A:

BECAUSE WE FOUND SOMEONE AT THE RESIDENCE THAT PUT US IN TOUCH WITH MR. SIMPSON. WE HAD ALREADY MADE CONTACT WITH MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY, ARNELLE SIMPSON. IT WAS KIND OF A MUTE POINT TO SIT THERE AND SAY, NO, I'M NOT GOING TO TELL YOU ANYTHING AND LEAVE THE RESIDENCE. SO WE GOT AHOLD OF MR. SIMPSON AND INFORMED HIM OVER THE TELEPHONE, WHICH WASN'T THE EXACT WAY THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE DONE IT, BUT THAT IS THE WAY THE SITUATION PRESENTED ITSELF.

# 189 Q:

WHAT DO YOU MEAN THAT IS THE WAY THE SITUATION PRESENTED ITSELF? WERE YOU CONCERNED THAT THE MEDIA WAS GOING TO FIND OUT BEFORE HIM?

# 190 MR. COCHRAN:

THAT IS LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE, YOUR HONOR.

# 191 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 192 MS. CLARK:

I'M SORRY. LET ME WITHDRAW THAT.

# 193 Q:

WHAT WERE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT? WHY DID YOU TELL HIM ON THE TELEPHONE?

# 194 A:

AS I SAID, WHEN WE FIRST -- WHEN WE GOT THERE WE HAD ALREADY CONTACTED TWO PEOPLE AT THAT RESIDENCE. WE ALREADY TOLD THEM WE HAD AN EMERGENCY, WE WERE TRYING TO LOOK FOR HIM. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY, VERY INSENSITIVE TO JUST GO, I'M SORRY, HE IS NOT HERE, WE ARE GOING TO LEAVE. PEOPLE CAN FIND OUT LATER WHY WE WERE HERE. SHE SAID SHE COULD GET AHOLD OF HER FATHER, SO WE GOT AHOLD OF THE FATHER AND GAVE HIM THE INFORMATION THAT WE HAD TO GIVE HIM. NOT THAT WE WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE GIVEN IT TO HIM IN PERSON HAD HE BEEN THERE, BUT HE WASN'T THERE IN PERSON, SO WE USED THE TELEPHONE.

# 195 Q:

DURING YOUR PHONE CALL TO MR. SIMPSON CAN YOU TELL US WHERE DETECTIVE VANNATTER WAS, DID YOU KNOW?

# 196 A:

NO, I DON'T.

# 197 Q:

DID YOU EVER INFORM DETECTIVE VANNATTER OF WHAT CATHY RANDA TOLD YOU ABOUT THE WHEREABOUTS OF MR. SIMPSON?

# 198 A:

I DON'T KNOW IF I TOLD VANNATTER. I TOLD LANGE BECAUSE LANGE WAS IN THE KITCHEN WITH ME WITH ARNELLE.

# 199 Q:

HE WAS IN YOUR IMMEDIATE VICINITY?

# 200 A:

YES.

# 201 Q:

NOW, AFTER DETECTIVE LANGE CAME BACK WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

# 202 A:

THEY ASKED MARK FUHRMAN AND I TO GO BACK -- TOM LANGE DID, ASKED MARK FUHRMAN AND I TO GO BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION.

# 203 Q:

AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE? WHAT WERE YOU GOING TO DO?

# 204 A:

TOM HAD ASKED MARK TO GO BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION AND LOOK AT THE GLOVE AND THE BUNDY LOCATION AND GET ANOTHER LOOK AT IT AND SEE IF IT WAS IN FACT A MATCH TO THE ONE THAT WE HAD UP AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION.

# 205 Q:

AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED?

# 206 A:

MARK FUHRMAN AND I LEFT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION AND DROVE BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION.

# 207 Q:

SO YOU LEFT -- YOU WENT BACK IN YOUR CAR TOGETHER?

# 208 A:

YES.

# 209 Q:

WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION, DID YOU SEE WHERE -- WHERE DID YOU GO? WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 210 A:

WE PARKED OUR CAR. I SAW MARK FUHRMAN WALK OVER TO THE BUNDY LOCATION. HE WAS GOING TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THE GLOVE. AND I SAW LIEUTENANT SPANGLER AND CAPTAIN DIAL AND SOME OTHER COMMAND STAFF STANDING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE INTERSECTION AND THEY WERE LOOKING AT ME AND I WALKED OVER TO THEM TO GIVE THEM INFORMATION THAT I HAD RECEIVED OR WHAT HAD BEEN DONE IN THE LAST SO MANY -- IN THE LAST HOUR.

# 211 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 212 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

# 213 A:

IT WAS ABOUT 6:30.

# 214 Q:

YOU SAW HIM WALK OVER TOWARD THE LOCATION?

# 215 A:

HE WALKED OVER TO THE CRIME SCENE LOCATION AND I WALKED OVER TO LIEUTENANT SPANGLER AND CAPTAIN DIAL TO INFORM THEM OF WHAT HAD BEEN TAKING PLACE, AND ALSO JOHN ROGERS.

# 216 Q:

NOW, WAS THE CRIME SCENE STILL TAPED OFF?

# 217 A:

YES.

# 218 Q:

AND DID YOU SEE ANYONE WALKING ON THE FRONT WALKWAY THAT LEADS FROM THE SIDEWALK OF BUNDY TO THE FRONT STEPS OF THE CONDO?

# 219 A:

NO, THERE WAS NO ONE WALKING AROUND.

# 220 MS. CLARK:

YOUR HONOR, COULD WE CUT THE FEED, PLEASE?

# 221 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 55.

# 222 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THE PHOTOGRAPHERS ARE DIRECTED NOT TO ATTEMPT TO TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE SCREEN.

# 223 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US WHO THAT IS POINTING TO THE EVIDENCE IN THAT PICTURE, SIR?

# 224 A:

THAT IS DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN.

# 225 Q:

IS THAT WHAT HE WAS WEARING ALL NIGHT THAT NIGHT?

# 226 A:

YES.

# 227 Q:

THAT IS HOW HE WAS DRESSED?

# 228 A:

YES.

# 229 Q:

FROM THE TIME YOU ARRIVED AT BUNDY AT 2:10 A.M.?

# 230 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, SAME QUESTIONS REGARDING MARK FUHRMAN ABOUT HIM NOT HAVING ANY JACKET ON.

# 231 THE COURT:

OVERRULED, BECAUSE THERE WAS SOME OTHER TESTIMONY REGARDING CLOTHING IN THE INTERIM.

# 232 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS ANSWER THAT, SIR?

# 233 A:

YES.

# 234 Q:

IS THAT HOW HE WAS DRESSED WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT 2:10 A.M.?

# 235 A:

YES.

# 236 Q:

AND THE LOCATION THAT HE IS POINTING TO, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT?

# 237 A:

YES.

# 238 Q:

WHAT IS HE POINTING TO, SIR?

# 239 A:

HE IS POINTING TO THE LOCATION WHERE THE GLOVE IS.

# 240 Q:

AND IS THAT THE DIRECTION IN WHICH YOU SAW HIM LEAVING WHEN YOU TALKED TO LIEUTENANT SPANGLER?

# 241 A:

YES. I DID NOT SEE THIS PHOTOGRAPH TAKEN.

# 242 THE COURT:

THIS IS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT?

# 243 MS. CLARK:

55.

# 244 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

55.

# 245 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 246 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. AND AT SOME POINT WHILE YOU WERE THERE, AFTER YOU GOT TO BUNDY, DID ANOTHER DETECTIVE ARRIVE?

# 247 A:

YES, TOM LANGE RETURNED.

# 248 Q:

HOW LONG AFTER YOU GOT BACK TO BUNDY DID HE ARRIVE?

# 249 A:

PROBABLY TEN OR FIFTEEN MINUTES.

# 250 Q:

AND WHAT DID HE DO?

# 251 A:

HE BEGAN TO DO HIS CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION OF THE BUNDY LOCATION.

# 252 Q:

DID HE MAKE SOME REQUEST OF YOU, SIR?

# 253 A:

YES, HE DID.

# 254 Q:

AND WHAT WAS THAT REQUEST?

# 255 A:

HE ASKED ME TO MAKE THE FIRST PHONE CALL TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE, TO GIVE THEM THE FIRST CALL.

# 256 Q:

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, THE FIRST CALL?

# 257 A:

IT IS A SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE WORKED WITH THE CORONER'S OFFICE WHERE THE FIRST CALL INFORMS THEM BASICALLY WHAT WE HAVE. IT IS NOT A CALL TO COME OUT TO THE LOCATION; IT IS JUST TO INFORM THEM OF WHAT WE HAVE SO THE CORONER'S OFFICE CAN MAKE PREPARATIONS THAT THEIR TRUCK OR ONE OF THEIR TECHNICIANS IS GOING TO BE NEEDED OVER IN THE WEST LOS ANGELES AREA SO THEY CAN HAVE MORE CONTROL OVER THEIR PERSONNEL TIMEWISE.

# 258 Q:

I THINK YOU INDICATED EARLIER, SIR, THAT AROUND 3:00 A.M. YOU WANTED TO CALL THE CORONER BUT LIEUTENANT SPANGLER TOLD YOU NOT TO?

# 259 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, THIS HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED.

# 260 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 261 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

YES.

# 262 MR. COCHRAN:

LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE ALSO.

# 263 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO US WHY YOU WANTED TO MAKE THE FIRST CALL WHEN YOU ALREADY KNEW THE CASE WAS GOING OVER TO ANOTHER SET OF DETECTIVES AND NOT YOURSELF?

# 264 A:

WELL, I WASN'T GOING TO REQUEST THE CORNER AT THE LOCATION. I WAS JUST GOING TO MAKE THE FIRST CALL NOTIFICATION OF THE CORONER INFORMING THEM WHAT WE HAD, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I DID AT 6:50. IT WAS STILL THE FIRST CALL.

# 265 Q:

SO THEY WOULD BE READY WHEN THE FINAL DETECTIVE MADE THE CALL?

# 266 A:

YES.

# 267 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO YOU MADE THE FIRST CALL NOTIFICATION FOR THEM TO PREPARE AT 6:50?

# 268 A:

YES.

# 269 Q:

WAS THERE A TRANSCRIPT PREPARED OF YOUR DISCUSSION WITH THE CORONER'S OFFICE THAT MORNING?

# 270 A:

I BELIEVE SO.

# 271 Q:

AND HAVE YOU SEEN THAT?

# 272 A:

YES.

# 273 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

1, COUNSEL ONLY.

# 274 MS. CLARK:

THIS IS THE FIRST PAGE OF THE TRANSCRIPT, YOUR HONOR, PREPARED -- I BELIEVE A PORTION OF THIS WAS SHOWN TO THE JURY DURING MR. COCHRAN'S OPENING STATEMENT. I WOULD ASK THAT THIS PAGE BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 69.

# 275 THE COURT:

69.

# 276 (PEO'S 69 FOR ID = 1-PG TRANSCRIPT)

# 277 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 278 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

1, PLEASE.

# 279 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT YOU SEE THERE?

# 280 A:

YES.

# 281 Q:

IS THAT -- DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE THE FIRST PAGE OF THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH THE CORONER'S OFFICE ON THE MORNING OF JUNE THE 13TH?

# 282 A:

YES.

# 283 Q:

IN THE VERY FIRST PASSAGE WHERE YOU ARE SPEAKING, SIR, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT PASSAGE WHERE YOU TELL THEM YOU HAVE A DOUBLE HOMICIDE?

# 284 A:

YES.

# 285 Q:

AND IN THAT FIRST PASSAGE WHAT -- DO YOU RECALL HAVING THAT CONVERSATION?

# 286 A:

YES, I DO.

# 287 Q:

WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO CONVEY TO THEM IN THAT FIRST RESPONSE -- THAT FIRST --

# 288 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. THAT SPEAKS FOR HIMSELF. NOT WHAT HE IS TRYING TO CONVEY. WE HAVE THE WORDS UP THERE WITH A TAPE.

# 289 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 290 MS. CLARK:

MAY WE APPROACH? THIS IS FOUNDATIONAL, YOUR HONOR.

# 291 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (5)

Witness (Det. Ron Phillips)

IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS ALSO THE SAME TYPE OF GLOVE THAT WE HAD SEEN AT THE BUNDY LOCATION.

Phillips confirms the glove's significance — it appeared to match the Bundy glove, connecting the two crime scenes.

Witness (Det. Ron Phillips)

I STOOD THERE AND SHINED A FLASHLIGHT ON IT AND OBSERVED WHAT IT APPEARED TO BE AND THEN TOLD MARK -- I SAYS, 'LET'S GO BACK TO THE HOUSE AND INFORM VANNATTER AND LANGE OF THIS.'

Establishes Phillips's immediate reaction to the glove and the chain-of-command notification sequence that followed.

Witness (Det. Ron Phillips)

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY, VERY INSENSITIVE TO JUST GO, I'M SORRY, HE IS NOT HERE, WE ARE GOING TO LEAVE. PEOPLE CAN FIND OUT LATER WHY WE WERE HERE.

Phillips defends the decision to notify OJ by phone rather than in person, framing it as a practical and humane choice given the circumstances.

Lance A. Ito

HOW MANY TIMES DOES HE CRASH INTO THE WALL? RIGHT?

Ito's wry aside during technical difficulties with the ELMO diagram pointer, lightening a tense session.

Witness (Det. Ron Phillips)

JUST THE ONE TIME IN THE GARAGE.

Phillips's deadpan reply to Ito's joke — a rare light moment in an otherwise heavy proceeding.

Evidence (6)

People's 66-A

Diagram of the Rockingham property with Phillips's traced path to the glove marked 'R.P.'

introduced and annotated via ELMO

People's 68

Posterboard with four photos (A–D) showing the south walkway at Rockingham, including the air conditioning unit and the glove in situ

introduced and discussed

People's 55

Photograph of Detective Fuhrman pointing to the glove location at Bundy

displayed on screen, discussed to confirm Fuhrman's clothing and location

People's 69

First page of transcript of Phillips's 6:50 a.m. first-call notification to the coroner's office on June 13

introduced, partially displayed

Informal

The glove found on the south walkway at Rockingham near Kato Kaelin's AC unit

described in detail, location traced on diagram

Informal

The glove at the Bundy crime scene

referenced as the matching item that made the Rockingham glove significant

Notable Exchanges (4)

Marcia Clark•Witness (Det. Ron Phillips)

Sustained sequence of 'did OJ ask you X?' questions all answered 'No' — he asked nothing about how, when, where, or who killed Nicole.

strategic

Marcia Clark•Johnnie Cochran•Lance A. Ito

Cochran objects to testimony about what Fuhrman told Phillips as hearsay; Clark argues it explains subsequent conduct; Ito rules Clark can handle it without the hearsay and she redirects.

procedural

Lance A. Ito•Witness (Det. Ron Phillips)

Ito jokes about the ELMO pointer 'crashing into the wall'; Phillips responds with a dry one-liner about the garage.

light

Marcia Clark•Johnnie Cochran•Lance A. Ito

At the end of the session, Clark attempts to ask Phillips what he was 'trying to convey' to the coroner when the transcript is already displayed; Cochran objects that the document speaks for itself and is sustained; Clark requests a sidebar.

strategic

Light Moments (1)

Lance A. Ito / Witness (Det. Ron Phillips)

While Phillips struggled to trace his path on the ELMO diagram, Ito quipped 'HOW MANY TIMES DOES HE CRASH INTO THE WALL? RIGHT?' — Phillips shot back 'JUST THE ONE TIME IN THE GARAGE.'

Witness Demeanor

(BRIEF PAUSE.) during ELMO diagram difficulties

Witness self-corrects mid-sentence: 'QUITE A WAYS -- I MEAN, VERY CLOSE TO IT'

Witness begins to answer significance question before being cut off by Cochran's nonresponsive objection: 'WELL, IT APPEARED TO BE SOME -- I'M SORRY.'

Objections

7 objections (4 sustained, 2 overruled)

Proceeding 5035 • 291 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103