Johnnie Cochran cross-examines Detective Phillips about the early morning investigation at the Simpson estate on June 12-13, 1994. Cochran focuses on two areas: what Kato Kaelin told Phillips at the door (specifically whether Kaelin mentioned seeing OJ depart in a limousine), and the route the detectives took into the house — and crucially, where Fuhrman was during that entry. Phillips admits he spoke with Kaelin for only 'five seconds' and cannot reliably recall what was said, while also confirming Fuhrman stayed behind with Kaelin and was not present when the other detectives entered the home.
# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) # 2 THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. PROCEED.
# 3 MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
# 5 Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: I PLACE BEFORE YOU A DOCUMENT THAT PURPORTS TO BE A STATEMENT OF BRIAN JERARD KAELIN.
# 6 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. OBJECTION. THE WITNESS CAN BE ASKED -- THERE HAS BEEN NO FOUNDATION LAID.
# 7 MR. COCHRAN: JUST LAYING FOR THE RECORD WHAT THE DOCUMENT IS.
# 8 THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE DOCUMENT HAS TO BE IDENTIFIED FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE RECORD.
# 9 Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, I WANT YOU TO LOOK AT THIS STATEMENT AND I WANT YOU TO READ THE DATE IT WAS TAKEN AND TIME, AND I WANT YOU TO READ AND I WANT YOU TO SPECIFICALLY PAY ATTENTION TO THE SECOND PARAGRAPH OF THAT STATEMENT AND I WANT YOU TO SEE IF YOU SEE -- WELL, LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION.
# 11 Q: HAVE YOU READ THAT TO YOURSELF?
# 13 Q: OKAY. AND BY THE WAY, WHO TOOK A STATEMENT FROM KATO KAELIN THAT NIGHT WHEN YOU WERE OUT THERE ABOUT 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING? WHICH OFFICER?
# 15 Q: DID YOU SEE THE MAN WHO WORKED FOR YOU, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, TALKING TO KATO KAELIN?
# 16 A: AT ONE TIME, YES.
# 17 Q: AND DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PRINTING ON THIS DOCUMENT? LOOK AT THAT DOCUMENT.
# 18 A: I'VE NEVER SEEN THIS WRITING BEFORE.
# 19 Q: ALL RIGHT. THAT'S NOT FUHRMAN'S WRITING?
# 21 Q: ALL RIGHT. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THAT REPORT BEFORE?
# 23 Q: DOES THAT REPORT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION ABOUT WHAT BRIAN KATO KAELIN SAID ABOUT THE LAST TIME HE SAW O.J. SIMPSON --
# 24 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 25 MR. COCHRAN: MAY I FINISH THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR? I'M ASKING HIM TO REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION ABOUT THE LAST TIME HE SAW KATO KAELIN ON JUNE 12TH, 1994.
# 26 THE COURT: WOULD IT REFRESH HIS -- KATO KAELIN'S RECOLLECTION AS TO THE LAST TIME HE SAW KATO KAELIN?
# 27 MR. COCHRAN: NO, YOUR HONOR. I'M ASKING HIM IF HIS REVIEW OF THIS REPORT REFRESHES HIS RECOLLECTION ABOUT WHAT KATO KAELIN SAID.
# 28 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
KEY QUOTE # 29 MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
# 30 THE COURT: YOU ARE WELCOME.
# 31 Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: GOOD QUESTION. SO YOU CAN ANSWER THAT IF YOU CAN.
# 32 A: IT DOES NOT REFRESH MY MEMORY AT ALL OF WHAT KATO KAELIN SAID THAT NIGHT TO ME.
# 33 Q: YOU TALKED TO HIM?
# 34 A: NO. I TALKED TO HIM VERY, VERY BRIEFLY WHEN HE FIRST ANSWERED THE DOOR.
# 35 Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU EVER ASK HIM IF HE KNEW WHETHER OR NOT O.J. SIMPSON WAS AT HOME?
# 36 A: YES. I ASKED HIM IF HE KNEW WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS AT.
# 37 Q: ALL RIGHT. DID HE --
# 38 A: -- OR IF HE WAS AT HOME. I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHAT I ASKED HIM.
# 39 Q: DID KATO KAELIN TELL YOU THAT HE WAS PRESENT WHEN --
# 40 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 41 MR. COCHRAN: I CAN ASK HIM THIS QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. I CAN ASK THIS QUESTION. I CAN ASK HIM.
# 42 THE COURT: I HAVEN'T HEARD THE QUESTION YET. LET'S HEAR THE QUESTION.
# 43 Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. DID KATO KAELIN TELL YOU THAT HE HAD SEEN O.J. SIMPSON GET IN --
# 44 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS GOING TO BE ALL HEARSAY. COUNSEL IS TESTIFYING.
# 45 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 46 MR. COCHRAN: I'M NOT TESTIFYING. I'M ASKING A QUESTION.
# 47 THE COURT: LET'S HEAR THE QUESTION. COUNSEL, I HAVEN'T HEARD THE QUESTION YET. MR. COCHRAN.
# 48 MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
# 49 THE COURT: ASK THE QUESTION.
# 50 MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
# 51 Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: DID KATO KAELIN TELL YOU THAT HE HAD SEEN O.J. SIMPSON GET INTO A LIMOUSINE TO GO TO THE AIRPORT AT -- ON JUNE 12TH, 1994 BETWEEN 11:00 AND 11:15 P.M.? DID HE TELL YOU THAT?
# 53 Q: HE NEVER SAID THAT TO YOU?
# 54 A: I NEVER INTERVIEWED THE MAN.
# 55 Q: WELL, NO. WHEN YOU ASKED HIM IF HE KNEW WHERE O.J. SIMPSON WAS, HE DIDN'T TELL YOU HE HAD SEEN HIM GET INTO A LIMOUSINE?
# 57 Q: HE DIDN'T TELL YOU HE WAS LEAVING TOWN?
# 59 Q: HOW LONG DID YOU TALK TO HIM?
# 60 A: VERY BRIEFLY, JUST FOR A COUPLE OF SECONDS.
# 61 Q: ALL RIGHT. SO WE'RE CLEAR, WHEN YOU ASKED HIM WHERE O.J. SIMPSON WAS, I WANT YOU TO THINK CAREFULLY, TELL US WHAT DID HE SAY TO YOU.
# 62 A: AS I TOLD YOU, I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID. I ASKED HIM IF HE KNEW WHERE HE WAS. I BELIEVE YESTERDAY, I SAID -- I SAID -- I SAID I DON'T THINK -- OR HE DIDN'T KNOW. I'M NOT SURE THAT WAS A TRUE STATEMENT. I DO NOT RECALL --
# 63 Q: YOU WANT TO CHANGE IT?
# 64 A: WELL, I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE IT TO ANYTHING BECAUSE I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY WHAT THE MAN DID SAY. HE DID NOT TELL ME THESE THINGS. HE POINTED ME OVER TOWARDS ARNELLE'S ROOM AND THAT'S WHERE I WALKED OVER. I TALKED TO MR. KATO KAELIN FOR FIVE SECONDS.
KEY QUOTE # 65 Q: ALL RIGHT. I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED NOW. YOU THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID YESTERDAY, RIGHT?
# 67 Q: AND DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE THAT?
# 68 A: NO. I'M JUST TELLING YOU I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT THE WORDS WERE THAT HE SAID ABOUT HE'S NOT HOME OR WHERE HE WAS AT. THAT'S ALL I AM TELLING YOU, IS I DO NOT RECALL EXACTLY THE WORDS HE USED.
# 69 Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THE REPORT DOESN'T REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AT ALL?
# 70 A: I DIDN'T ASK THEM THOSE QUESTIONS AND HE DIDN'T GIVE ME THOSE ANSWERS.
# 71 Q: OKAY. HE THEN -- YOU DO RECALL HIM DIRECTING YOU TO ARNELLE --
# 73 Q: IS THAT CORRECT? AND WHEN YOU WENT DOWN TO ARNELLE SIMPSON'S ROOM, YOU AROUSED HER FROM HER SLEEP; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 75 Q: AND THAT -- AS I UNDERSTAND IT, DID YOU COME IN THE BACK WAY TO THE SIMPSON HOME OR DID YOU COME IN THE FRONT DOOR, IF YOU RECALL? THIS ROUTE THAT YOU TOOK FROM ARNELLE SIMPSON'S HOUSE INTO THE SIMPSON HOME, HOW DID YOU GO?
# 77 Q: WELL, LET'S SEE IF I CAN HELP YOU OUT.
# 78 A: I DIDN'T GO IN THE FRONT DOOR, MR. COCHRAN.
# 79 Q: ALL RIGHT. LET'S SHOW US WHERE YOU WENT.
# 80 MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, WE'RE ABOUT TO TAKE A LOOK AT PEOPLE'S 66 IF THE COURT PLEASES.
# 81 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 66, DIAGRAM.
# 82 Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU SHOW US AGAIN -- SHOW US HOW YOU WENT AND WHERE YOU WENT?
# 83 A: WE WALKED TO ARNELLE'S ROOM, DOWN THIS WALKWAY, UP THESE STEPS AND I BELIEVE THERE'S A SERIES OF DOORS RIGHT HERE AT THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE. SHE UNLOCKED ONE OF THESE DOORS. I BELIEVE IT WAS THE DOOR FARTHEST TO OUR LEFT AND THAT'S THE WAY WE WENT INSIDE THAT HOUSE.
# 84 Q: WHEN SHE UNLOCKED THAT DOOR, WAS THERE AN ALARM ON THAT HOUSE?
# 85 A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR.
# 86 Q: DID YOU HEAR THE ALARM GO OFF?
# 87 A: NO ALARM WENT OFF.
# 88 Q: DID YOU SEE HER PRESS SOME BUTTONS ON THE WALL?
# 89 A: I DIDN'T SEE HER DO ANYTHING.
# 90 Q: DO YOU KNOW IF THERE'S ANY KIND OF AN ALARM FOR WESTEC ON THAT WALL THAT SHE ENTERED?
# 91 A: I WOULD NOT KNOW THAT.
# 92 Q: YOU ARE SURE AS YOU SIT HERE NOW THAT YOU WENT IN SOME DOOR TOWARD THE REAR OF THE HOUSE?
# 94 Q: BUT YOU DID NOT GO AROUND AND COME IN THE FRONT?
# 96 Q: YOU ARE POSITIVE OF THAT?
# 98 Q: AND WHO WAS PRESENT WITH YOU WHEN YOU WENT -- WALKED THIS ROUTE? WHO WAS PRESENT?
# 99 A: ARNELLE SIMPSON, VANNATTER, TOM LANGE AND MYSELF.
# 100 Q: AND ALL OF YOU -- ALL OF YOU WENT IN THE REAR, THAT REAR DOOR?
# 102 Q: WAS FUHRMAN WITH YOU AT THAT POINT?
# 103 A: DIDN'T SEE HIM AT THAT POINT.
# 104 Q: DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT THAT POINT?
# 106 Q: SO ONCE HE CLIMBED OVER THE WALL, YOU GOT IN -- YOU -- YOU WERE SEPARATED FROM -- FROM MARK FUHRMAN; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 107 A: NO. THE ONLY TIME WE WERE SEPARATED FROM MARK FUHRMAN IS WHEN WE STOPPED AND TALKED TO KATO KAELIN. I BELIEVE HE STAYED THERE AND TALKED TO KATO KAELIN BECAUSE HE DID NOT WALK DOWN WITH ME TO ARNELLE'S ROOM.
# 108 Q: ALL RIGHT. AND YOU DESCRIBED THAT WHEN HE CAME -- WHEN YOU WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE ALONG WITH LANGE AND VANNATTER, HE WASN'T THERE EITHER?
# 109 A: I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS BEHIND ME. I DID NOT SEE HIM WALK IN BEHIND US.
# 110 Q: ALL RIGHT. SO IT WAS YOU ALL WERE INSIDE THE HOUSE, IS THAT RIGHT, AT THAT POINT?
# 112 Q: IT WAS YOU, VANNATTER AND LANGE INSIDE OF MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE AT THAT POINT AND ARNELLE?
# 113 A: AND IF ANYBODY FOLLOWED US IN, I DIDN'T TURN AROUND TO LOOK TO SEE WHO WAS COMING.
# 114 Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU WERE NOW INSIDE MR. SIMPSON'S HOME?
# 115 A: WOULD HAVE TO BE RIGHT AROUND 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING. I MADE THE PHONE CALL AT 6:05 AND THAT WAS DONE VERY SHORTLY AFTER ENTERING THE HOUSE.
# 116 Q: THEN YOU HAD THIS CONVERSATION AT THAT POINT WITH -- WITH ARNELLE SIMPSON?
# 118 Q: ABOUT WHERE HER FATHER WAS?
# 120 Q: AND I ASKED YOU EARLIER WHETHER OR NOT SHE TOLD YOU HER FATHER WAS OUT OF TOWN AND UH --
# 121 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, HEARSAY.
# 122 MR. COCHRAN: WELL, LET ME -- MAY I FINISH THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR?
# 124 Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: AND I ASKED YOU EARLIER WHETHER OR NOT ARNELLE SIMPSON TOLD YOU THAT HER FATHER WAS OUT OF TOWN AT THAT POINT.
# 125 MS. CLARK: HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.