Direct examination of Dr. John Gerdes (part 8)

📄 Direct examination of Dr. John Gerdes (part 8) — Wednesday, August 2, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\AUG\2\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-DR-JOHN-.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 127 of 167

◀ Sidebar: prosecution (1) Sidebar: prosecution (2) ▶

Witness: Dr. John Gerdes
Examiner: Barry Scheck
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, August 2, 1995 • Lines: 62

Scheck examines Dr. Gerdes about LAPD lab equipment, focusing on whether the serology-lab hood was chemical or laminar flow and on photographs of Yamauchi's evidence-storage shelf and tube rack. After Scheck asked about Yamauchi and Matheson's reported description of the hood as a laminar flow hood, Gerdes answered that they were not correct. Gerdes also described how Gary Sims spaces tubes at the Department of Justice.

# 1 MR. SCHECK:

Print that.

# 2 MR. SCHECK:

Now, when you are talking about air--so in other words, it is this hood in the LAPD is a chemical hood that sucks air from that whole area into that work station and up and out?

# 3 DR. GERDES:

Correct. That's correct.

# 4 MR. SCHECK:

Now, you've heard the testimony--withdrawn. In other forensic laboratories, as well as clinical laboratories you visited, do they use laminar flow hoods?

# 5 DR. GERDES:

That is the appropriate hood to use if you are concerned about protecting an analyst and protecting specimens from microbiological contamination or DNA contamination.

# 6 MR. SCHECK:

Are laminar flow hoods used in forensic labs?

# 7 DR. GERDES:

Yes.

# 8 MR. SCHECK:

This--knowing that you have a laminar flow hood, as opposed to a chemical hood, is this a fundamental piece of information in terms of DNA laboratory practices?

# 9 MR. CLARKE:

Objection, vague.

# 10 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 11 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Is it a fundamental fact, be it in terms of DNA laboratory procedures, to know if a hood is a laminar flow hood as opposed to a chemical hood?

# 12 MR. CLARKE:

Objection, argumentative. Also leading.

# 13 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 14 MR. SCHECK:

All right.

# 15 MR. SCHECK:

Have you heard the testimony or are you familiar with the testimony of Mr. Yamauchi, Mr. Matheson, that this hood is a laminar flow hood?

# 16 DR. GERDES:

Yes.

# 17 MR. SCHECK:

Are they correct in their statement that it is a laminar flow hood?

# 18 DR. GERDES:

No.

# 19 MR. SCHECK:

What does that indicate to you about the level of expertise they have in terms of DNA typing?

# 20 MR. CLARKE:

Objection, argumentative.

# 21 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 22 MR. SCHECK:

Did you--look at these two.

# 23 (Brief pause.)

# 24 MR. SCHECK:

Did you have an opportunity to look at the refrigerator within the serology laboratory?

# 25 DR. GERDES:

I did.

# 26 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And did you observe there items stored by Mr. Yamauchi, case items?

# 27 DR. GERDES:

Yes.

# 28 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And you directed photographs be taken of that?

# 29 DR. GERDES:

I did.

# 30 MR. SCHECK:

All right. I would like to mark what is--I guess we are at 1304 and 1305.

# 31 (Deft's 1304 for id = photograph)

# 32 (Deft's 1305 for id = photograph)

# 33 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Scheck, five minutes.

# 34 MR. SCHECK:

We also have a printout with the laminar flow hood that I would mark 1303-A.

# 35 THE COURT:

Chemical hood. You see, it is an easy mistake.

KEY QUOTE

# 36 MR. SHAPIRO:

Chemical/laminar.

# 37 (Deft's 1303-A for id = photograph)

# 38 THE COURT:

All right.

# 39 MR. SCHECK:

I show you first 1305. What is that?

# 40 DR. GERDES:

This is a view of Mr. Yamauchi's evidence storage shelf.

# 41 MR. SCHECK:

And that is within the serology freezer?

# 42 DR. GERDES:

That's correct, refrigerator.

# 43 MR. SCHECK:

Refrigerator. What is 1304?

# 44 DR. GERDES:

That is a close-up of the rack that was sitting there on that shelf.

# 45 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Now, how should tubes, test-tubes that contain samples in a forensic lab or DNA lab, be kept?

# 46 MR. CLARKE:

I'm sorry, objection. Lack of foundation.

# 47 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 48 DR. GERDES:

Well, again we are concerned with transferring from one thing to another, so it just makes common sense that what you would do is put a lot of space between tubes that you are worried about transferring the material from one to the other. So every--most forensic labs would put one tube and then leave two spaces and then another tube and leave two spaces.

# 49 MR. CLARKE:

I'm sorry to interrupt. Objection, lack of foundation.

# 50 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 51 THE COURT:

The last part of the answer is stricken. The jury is to disregard.

# 52 MR. SCHECK:

Have you seen Gary Sims at the Department of Justice stack his tubes?

# 53 DR. GERDES:

Yes.

# 54 MR. SCHECK:

How does he do it?

# 55 DR. GERDES:

Gary Sims places the rack with one tube and then he leaves two or three spaces, another tube. He leaves plenty of space between every tube so that there is no possibility, if you go in there with your fingers or a glove, of touching one tube to the other or of the tubes touching one another.

KEY QUOTE

# 56 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And these are the same kind of tubes that we are talking about when you pull off the tops that you get aerosols?

# 57 MR. CLARKE:

Objection, leading.

# 58 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 59 MR. SCHECK:

Just two more. This is a picture of--I think we will mark this--I think we are up to 1306.

# 60 (Deft's 1306 for id = photograph)

# 61 MR. SCHECK:

And 1307.

# 62 (Deft's 1307 for id = photograph)

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (3)

Dr. John Gerdes

No.

Directly contradicts Yamauchi and Matheson's reported identification of the hood as a laminar flow hood.

Dr. John Gerdes

Gary Sims places the rack with one tube and then he leaves two or three spaces, another tube. He leaves plenty of space between every tube so that there is no possibility, if you go in there with your fingers or a glove, of touching one tube to the other or of the tubes touching one another.

Describes Gary Sims's personal practice at the Department of Justice of leaving space between tubes to avoid contact between them.

Lance A. Ito

Chemical hood. You see, it is an easy mistake.

The judge's dry aside — after Scheck referred to the hood as a laminar flow hood — undercuts the gravity of the error Scheck is trying to dramatize, offering a moment of levity.

Evidence (5)

Defense 1303-A

Photograph/printout of the chemical hood in the LAPD lab

introduced

Defense 1304

Close-up photograph of tube rack on Yamauchi's evidence storage shelf

introduced

Defense 1305

Photograph of Yamauchi's evidence storage shelf in the serology refrigerator

introduced

Defense 1306

Photograph (contents not yet described in this excerpt)

introduced

Defense 1307

Photograph (contents not yet described in this excerpt)

introduced

Notable Exchanges (2)

Barry Scheck•Dr. John Gerdes

Gerdes flatly contradicts Yamauchi and Matheson's testimony that the hood was a laminar flow hood, and Scheck's follow-up question attempting to draw the inference about their DNA expertise is sustained as argumentative.

strategic

Barry Scheck•George Clarke•Lance A. Ito

Clarke repeatedly objects on foundation and leading grounds as Scheck tries to establish proper tube-spacing standards; the answer about 'most forensic labs' is stricken after being overruled then re-objected to.

contested

Light Moments (1)

Lance A. Ito

After Scheck referred to the hood as a 'laminar flow hood,' Ito corrected him — 'Chemical hood. You see, it is an easy mistake' — with Shapiro adding 'Chemical/laminar.'

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Dennis Yamauchi / Colin Matheson

contradiction by expert witness

Gerdes testified that Yamauchi and Matheson were incorrect in identifying the hood as a laminar flow hood; Gerdes identified it as a chemical hood.

Objections

6 objections (5 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 7151 • 62 lines • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103