Redirect examination of O.J. Simpson (part 3)

📄 Redirect examination of O.J. Simpson (part 3) — Monday, November 25, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\NOV\25\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-O-J-SI.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 22 of 57

◀ Sidebar: polygraph evidence Recess (2) ▶

Witness: O.J. Simpson
Examiner: Robert Baker
Called by: Defense • Date: Monday, November 25, 1996 • Lines: 184

Petrocelli questions Simpson about an encounter at an examiner's office, a deposition denial that he had taken a polygraph test, an alleged conversation with Ron Shipp, retrieval of golf clubs from LAX, and when he contacted his children after Nicole's death. Simpson testified that he was wired to something for an explanatory walkthrough but denied taking a polygraph test and said he did not know the asserted minus-22 score. He denied the Shipp allegations, said retrieving the clubs was not the trip's original purpose, and disputed the premise of the questions about composing himself before seeing his children.

# 1 (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury.)

# 2 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Simpson, you were testifying a few moments ago about how you were, once you understood the process, happy to take a lie detector test, but it was refused.

Do you recall that?

# 3 A:

Yes.

# 4 Q:

Now, in fact, Mr. Simpson, before you communicated that position to the D.A.'s office, you went to the office of Dr. Edward Gelb on June 15, did you not?

# 5 A:

I don't know.

# 6 Q:

You went to the office of some person on Wilshire Boulevard and sat down and were wired up for a lie detector test, true?

# 7 A:

That's not true.

I mean that's not true in totality.

# 8 Q:

Well, what do you mean, "in totality?"

# 9 A:

We didn't take a lie detector test.

What I was asking him is how did it work, and I wanted to understand it. And he sort of gave me an example how it --

# 10 Q:

And he hooked you up to the process and started asking you questions about Nicole, and Nicole's death and whether you were responsible for it, true?

# 11 A:

I don't know if he went that far with it.

# 12 Q:

Okay.

At the end of that process, you scored a minus 22, true?

# 13 A:

I don't know what the score was.

# 14 Q:

And you understood that was a polygraph test, right?

# 15 A:

I understood that once I finished, and I understood it, that I was willing to do one for the police.

# 16 Q:

And you understood that what you were doing that day was a polygraph test, on June 15; true or untrue?

# 17 A:

Not the way they explained it to me, no.

# 18 Q:

You were wired up to a polygraph machine, were you not?

# 19 A:

They wired me up to something and they -- the guy started to explain to me about how it works, and we went through it once for my understanding.

Once I understood how it worked, I told my lawyers, let's do it.

And we wanted it to be in evidence.

# 20 Q:

And the minus 22, by the way, is a score indicating extreme deception, true?

# 21 A:

I don't --

# 22 MR. BAKER:

Your Honor, I object to that.

# 23 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 24 MR. BAKER:

There's no foundation for that at all.

# 25 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Well, Mr. Simpson, when I asked you in your deposition, page 1284, lines 4 through 8, I asked you --

# 26 MR. BAKER:

Page? Wait a minute.

# 27 MR. PETROCELLI:

You got it, Mr. Baker?

# 28 MR. BLASIER:

I'm getting there.

# 29 (Indicating to computer.)

# 30 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, you went to this polygraph examiner's office on Tuesday, June 14, true?

# 31 A:

I don't know.

# 32 Q:

It was that time frame, right?

# 33 A:

I believe it was that week; it was -- that week is kind of fuzzy for me.

# 34 Q:

And I asked you in your deposition in January: (Reading) Question: "Have you ever taken a polygraph test?

"A. No.

"Q. I was going to say, since Nicole's death, have you taken a polygraph test?

"A. No."

That was untrue, wasn't it, sir?

# 35 A:

As far as I know, I didn't take a polygraph test.

# 36 Q:

You did, in fact, sit for that test, didn't you?

# 37 A:

That's incorrect.

# 38 Q:

When you returned from the police station, you went back to your office in Brentwood, right?

# 39 A:

Yes.

# 40 Q:

And then you went back to your house and had some people over that night, right?

# 41 A:

That -- there was a lot of people there coming in and out.

# 42 Q:

And you had a conversation with a fellow named Ron Shipp that night?

# 43 A:

I don't recall having a conversation with Ron.

# 44 Q:

And the subject of a polygraph test was on your mind because the police had mentioned it to you earlier in the day, true?

# 45 A:

No.

# 46 Q:

And you asked -- Mr. Shipp is a -- was a friend of yours, right?

# 47 A:

We were friendly, yes.

# 48 Q:

And he had been a member of the police department for a number of years, right?

# 49 A:

That's correct.

# 50 Q:

And you understood that he knew about such things as blood tests, and DNA tests, and polygraph tests?

# 51 A:

I don't think I ever thought about that, no.

# 52 Q:

And you only had some close friends and relatives over to your house that night, correct?

# 53 A:

No. All types of people that I knew casually, people that I knew well; people were coming in and out.

# 54 Q:

Mr. Kardashian was there, right?

# 55 A:

Yes.

# 56 Q:

Your long-time friend, Joe Delaney, right?

# 57 A:

Joe came at one point.

# 58 Q:

Your children, Jason and Arnelle?

# 59 A:

And friends of theirs.

# 60 Q:

Your mother's two sisters, brother-in-law, and your assistant, Cathy Randa, they were up there?

# 61 A:

Among all the many people coming in and out, yes.

# 62 Q:

At some point in the evening, I think you had a private conversation with Mr. Shipp, true?

# 63 A:

No, I never had a private conversation.

# 64 Q:

And you asked --

# 65 MR. BAKER:

Excuse me. I'm going to object.

# 66 A:

No, I never had a conversation with Shipp.

# 67 Q:

Isn't it true that you asked Mr. Shipp --

# 68 MR. BAKER:

I would object, Your Honor.

# 69 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) -- about --

# 70 MR. BAKER:

I would object.

# 71 MR. PETROCELLI:

Excuse me.

# 72 MR. BAKER:

I would object based on that last answer. There's no foundation. It's totally argumentative.

# 73 MR. PETROCELLI:

I don't have to accept that answer.

# 74 THE COURT:

All right. Overruled as admission of party, if you can prove it up. Otherwise, it's going to be stricken.

# 75 MR. PETROCELLI:

Absolutely, Your Honor.

# 76 THE COURT:

Okay.

# 77 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) You had a conversation with a man named Ron Shipp, and the subject matter was polygraph tests, right?

# 78 A:

That's incorrect.

# 79 Q:

And you asked Mr. Shipp what -- in effect, what would happen if you took a polygraph test, and you had dreams of killing Nicole, would that somehow interfere with the test and cause you to fail it, true?

KEY QUOTE

# 80 A:

That's absolutely wrong.

KEY QUOTE

# 81 Q:

And you asked Mr. Shipp how long it took for DNA tests to come back, true?

# 82 A:

No.

# 83 Q:

Okay.

Now, the next morning, you got up and you went over to your office at Brentwood again, right?

# 84 A:

At some point, yes.

# 85 Q:

This is, like, Tuesday morning now?

# 86 A:

Yes.

# 87 Q:

The 14th. And you had your secretary, Cathy Randa, call this fellow up in Chicago, Jim Merrill, correct?

# 88 A:

I believe so. I don't know if -- that he called -- I did know -- yeah, I may have told Cathy to give him a buzz.

# 89 Q:

You had asked Mr. Merrill in the conversation about your golf clubs, right?

# 90 A:

No.

# 91 Q:

The subject of your golf clubs came up, correct?

# 92 A:

Not with me, no.

# 93 Q:

Did the subject of the golf clubs come up at all in your telephone conversation with you between you and Jim Merrill on Tuesday, June 14?

# 94 A:

I don't recall.

# 95 Q:

Yes or no?

# 96 A:

I don't recall. I know I got on the phone with him. I was just apologizing to him for the way I spoke to him the day before.

# 97 Q:

So is the answer to my question that the golf clubs didn't come up at all in your conversation with Merrill?

# 98 A:

I don't know if -- he may have said something to me that he did make the flight or something, he may have said it, but I don't -- I know I didn't question him about the golf clubs.

# 99 Q:

I'm not asking you if you questioned him.

Did the topic come up, yes or no?

# 100 A:

I don't know -- I don't know.

# 101 Q:

Did --

# 102 A:

I know that I -- the conversation with him was me apologizing to him, cause I was really, really rude to him the day before.

# 103 Q:

Now, this is a man that you had never met other than the day before, right?

# 104 A:

He's a very nice guy. That's correct.

KEY QUOTE

# 105 Q:

He drove you to the airport?

# 106 A:

Yes.

# 107 Q:

And you think you were somewhat abrupt with him the day after you found out about Nicole's death, is that what you're saying?

# 108 A:

No, the times that I spoke with him after I found out about the death, I think I got him on the road coming and I may have even cursed him, but I was -- I was -- I'm normally not rude to people. And I was totally, totally rude to him.

# 109 Q:

And so you were rude to him because you were trying to -- frantically questioning him about getting to the hotel to pick you up, true?

# 110 A:

Yes, basically.

# 111 Q:

And the next day, even though your ex-wife had just been murdered, you felt it appropriate and necessary to call this man up just to apologize to him, is that what you're saying?

# 112 A:

I think when we got to the office -- Cathy did a number of things that day that -- I don't know -- I don't know how to act -- I didn't know how to act that day. It was like, hey, you know, that guy was really rude to him. I think I was in a meeting with Skip. And she called him, and she came into the office and said, you know, he's on the phone, if you want to speak to him, and I said, yeah, I'll say hello to him. We were in a pause from what I was doing. And I just told him I was sorry for the way I talked yesterday, but you understand now why.

# 113 Q:

You apologized to Mr. Merrill?

# 114 A:

Yes.

# 115 Q:

Okay.

Now, right after you got off the phone call, Mr. Simpson, is it not true that you then asked Mr. Kardashian to take you to get your golf clubs which Mr. Merrill had informed you had been shipped to Los Angeles and were at LAX?

# 116 A:

That's not correct.

# 117 Q:

Isn't it true that you specifically asked Mr. Kardashian at the office, in the presence of Skip Taft, even, to take you to the airport to get your golf clubs?

# 118 A:

That's not correct.

# 119 Q:

And isn't it not -- is it also true, sir, that you were advised by them, perhaps Mr. Shapiro as well, not to go to the airport and get your golf clubs because it would look bad?

# 120 A:

That's not correct.

# 121 MR. BAKER:

Object on the grounds when he gets a negative answer, his next question is "isn't it also true." I object to that as being argumentative, Your Honor.

This may invade the attorney-client privilege.

# 122 THE COURT:

Sustained as to the latter.

# 123 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Well, Mr. Kardashian was not there as an attorney based on the deposition testimony.

# 124 THE COURT:

You said Shapiro also.

# 125 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Let me ask you this: Shapiro -- Mr. Kardashian, he told you -- did he tell you that you should not go to the airport to get your golf clubs, yes or no?

# 126 A:

To make a correction, at that moment I was looking to Bob for legal advice and that's why he was in the meeting with me.

To answer your question, the answer is no.

# 127 Q:

Okay.

And it's your testimony, sir, that you did not leave the office with Mr. Kardashian and drive to the airport to get your golf clubs?

# 128 A:

Eventually we did, yes.

# 129 Q:

But it was not your purpose to go get the clubs, right?

# 130 A:

That's correct.

# 131 Q:

You did not ask Mr. Kardashian to take you to get the clubs, correct?

# 132 A:

That's correct.

# 133 Q:

But after you left the office, you did end up, somehow, at the airport and got your clubs, true?

# 134 A:

Yes, after we did a few things, we did do that.

# 135 Q:

And you testified in your deposition that you were feeling low and you just wanted to drive around, right?

# 136 A:

No, we were driving around after going by Nicole's house and we were waiting for my children and I just -- we were on the Santa Monica freeway actually, on Bundy at the Santa Monica freeway, and I think we discovered that they were still 40 or 50 minutes around. And at that time we were -- he said, what do you want to do? I said, just drive around, and then at one point we were near the airport, I said we can get my clubs at the airport.

# 137 Q:

You happened to be near the airport, driving around?

# 138 A:

We were on Bundy, going south on Bundy at the time, yes.

# 139 Q:

Well, Bundy is nowhere near the airport?

# 140 A:

Well, I take Bundy to the airport many times. I think it's 8 minutes from the airport where we were on Bundy. Bundy goes all the way down till just about to the airport.

# 141 Q:

And you said, look, since we're near the airport, why don't we hop out and get the clubs, right?

# 142 A:

Yeah, there was nothing to do, I was trying to kill 50 minutes waiting for my kids.

KEY QUOTE

# 143 Q:

Then you got those clubs, put them in Kardashian's car?

# 144 A:

Well, Kardashian put them in his car.

# 145 Q:

Rolls Royce, right?

# 146 A:

Yes.

# 147 Q:

You and he drove in that Rolls with the golf clubs, back to his house, right?

# 148 A:

Yes. And the kids were getting there about the time we got there.

# 149 Q:

And you stayed in the house the rest of the week, right?

# 150 A:

I stayed at his house essentially the rest of the week.

# 151 Q:

And there was one point in that week, maybe that same day, you went out to those golf clubs that were in Mr. Kardashian's garage, true?

# 152 A:

I think that there was one day during the week that I was in the house with a club, yes.

# 153 Q:

And you went into the garage one day and went into the bag and opened it up, true?

# 154 A:

Yes.

# 155 Q:

Okay.

Now, you mentioned a couple times about your kids.

In fact, you did not see or speak to your children until late afternoon on Tuesday, June 14, when they arrived at Kardashian's house, true?

# 156 A:

I believe it was about 2 o'clock, 1:30, 2 o'clock, yes.

# 157 Q:

And you testified in your deposition that the reason you didn't talk to your kids sooner is you wanted to get yourself together, fair, true?

# 158 A:

Partially. I called at one point to talk to the kids and ended up talking to Judy. I think the kids were out playing. And the next day I think I was a little more composed for my children, yes.

# 159 Q:

You wanted to compose yourself first before you saw your children who had just lost their mother, true?

# 160 A:

No, that's wrong.

# 161 Q:

Is that true?

# 162 A:

That's -- that was wrong.

# 163 Q:

That's all, don't need to go any further.

# 164 A:

That's wrong, what you just said.

# 165 Q:

Okay.

Now, on the 15th of June, you went to Dr. Huizenga's office and -- we've seen the photos, and you had photos taken of the various cuts and abrasions, right?

# 166 A:

I believe so.

# 167 Q:

And as of that point in time on the 15th of June, you had three cuts and seven abrasions, true?

# 168 A:

I don't know.

# 169 Q:

And if that's what Dr. Huizenga said, you wouldn't dispute that, right?

# 170 A:

No.

# 171 Q:

And other than the one that you think -- on the finger near the joint -- middle joint, that you think you cut at the hotel room in Chicago, you have no explanation for the other two cuts or the seven abrasions, correct?

# 172 A:

Correct.

# 173 Q:

Now, on the 17th of June, you were sleeping over at the Kardashians' house and were awakened that morning, correct?

# 174 A:

Yes.

# 175 Q:

And you had a whole legal team assembled over there, right?

# 176 A:

Bob Kardashian and Bob Shapiro.

# 177 Q:

You had people like Dr. Henry Lee and Dr. Michael Baden there as well?

# 178 A:

Yeah. I don't think I really knew who they were at the time.

# 179 Q:

And you had Dr. Huizenga there as well?

# 180 A:

Yes.

# 181 Q:

And folks were examining you and taking photographs and so forth, correct?

# 182 A:

Yes.

# 183 Q:

And at some point you were informed that morning that you would be arrested, right?

# 184 A:

That's correct.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Daniel Petrocelli

And you asked Mr. Shipp what -- in effect, what would happen if you took a polygraph test, and you had dreams of killing Nicole, would that somehow interfere with the test and cause you to fail it, true?

Petrocelli asked whether Simpson had asked Ron Shipp how dreams of killing Nicole might affect a polygraph test; Simpson denied the premise.

O.J. Simpson

That's absolutely wrong.

Simpson's emphatic denial of Petrocelli's premise that he discussed with Shipp how dreams might affect a polygraph test.

Daniel Petrocelli

And at the end of that process, you scored a minus 22, true?

Petrocelli asked whether Simpson received a minus-22 score; Simpson said he did not know the score, and the court sustained an objection to the proposed characterization of that score as indicating extreme deception.

O.J. Simpson

Yeah, there was nothing to do, I was trying to kill 50 minutes waiting for my kids.

Simpson explains that the airport stop to retrieve his golf clubs arose while he was waiting to see his children; he testified that retrieving them was not the trip's original purpose.

O.J. Simpson

Correct.

Simpson admits he has no explanation for two of his three cuts and all seven abrasions found on his body two days after the murders.

Evidence (4)

Informal

Equipment at an examiner's office on Wilshire Boulevard — Simpson testified that he was wired to something for an explanation of how it worked; he denied taking a lie detector test and said he did not know the score.

discussed, denied by Simpson as a formal test

Informal

Simpson deposition, page 1284, lines 4-8 — Simpson testified he had never taken a polygraph test

used as prior inconsistent statement for impeachment

Informal

Photographs of Simpson's cuts and abrasions taken at Dr. Huizenga's office on June 15 — three cuts and seven abrasions

discussed; Simpson admits no explanation for all but one

Informal

Simpson's golf clubs, retrieved from LAX on June 14 after being shipped from Chicago

discussed; Simpson's explanation for fetching them challenged as implausible

Notable Exchanges (4)

Daniel Petrocelli•O.J. Simpson

Petrocelli contrasted Simpson's deposition denial with his account of being wired to something for an explanation, then asked whether Simpson had received a minus-22 score; Simpson said he did not know the score.

devastating

Daniel Petrocelli•O.J. Simpson

Petrocelli asked whether Simpson had asked Ron Shipp how dreams of killing Nicole might affect a polygraph test. Simpson denied both the alleged conversation and the premise.

explosive

Daniel Petrocelli•O.J. Simpson

Simpson testified that he and Kardashian eventually went to LAX and retrieved the golf clubs, while maintaining that this was not the trip's original purpose and that he had not asked Kardashian to take him there for the clubs.

revealing

Daniel Petrocelli•O.J. Simpson

Petrocelli presses Simpson on not contacting his children until 1:30-2pm on June 14, asking whether he needed to 'compose himself' before seeing kids who just lost their mother. Simpson pushes back sharply.

heated

Light Moments (1)

O.J. Simpson

In response to Petrocelli's assertion that Bundy was nowhere near the airport, Simpson said he often took Bundy to the airport and estimated they were eight minutes away.

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ O.J. Simpson

prior inconsistent statement

Simpson's January deposition answer denied that he had ever taken a polygraph test. In this proceeding, he testified that he was wired to something for an explanation of how it worked, denied taking a formal test, and said he did not know the score asserted by Petrocelli.

⚔ O.J. Simpson

implausible narrative

Simpson denied that retrieving the golf clubs was the trip's original purpose or that he had previously asked Kardashian to take him for them; he acknowledged that they later went to LAX and retrieved the clubs, explaining that the stop arose while they were driving around and waiting for his children.

⚔ O.J. Simpson

admission by omission

Simpson concedes he has no explanation for two of his three cuts and all seven abrasions documented by Dr. Huizenga on June 15, 1994.

⚔ O.J. Simpson

denial of counsel premise

Simpson denied having a private conversation with Ron Shipp and denied Petrocelli's premises about polygraphs and dreams.

Witness Demeanor

Evasive and verbose — Simpson frequently gives long, unsolicited explanations rather than yes/no answers

Maintains distinctions between being wired up for an explanatory walkthrough and taking a formal polygraph test, and between eventually retrieving the golf clubs and having that as the trip's original purpose

Firmly disputed the premise of the questions about composing himself before seeing his children

Objections

4 objections (2 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 8405 • 184 lines • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103