Direct examination of Thano Peratis

📄 Direct examination of Thano Peratis — Tuesday, December 10, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\DEC\10\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-THANO-PE.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 29 of 57

◀ Administrative matters Cross-examination of Thano Peratis ▶

Witness: Thano Peratis
Examiner: Robert Blasier
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, December 10, 1996 • Utterances: 629

Thano Peratis, a registered nurse at the Parker Center City Jail, testified about drawing OJ Simpson's blood on June 13, 1994 and examining his finger. The central issue was that Peratis originally testified under oath at both the grand jury and preliminary hearing — just weeks after the blood draw — that he withdrew approximately 8 cc's, but later revised that estimate to 6 to 6.5 cc's after learning from Cochran's opening statement that blood was allegedly missing from Simpson's reference vial. Defense counsel Blasier used the changed testimony to argue Peratis adjusted his story to account for the discrepancy rather than to correct a genuine error.

# 1 MR. BLASIER:

Somebody call Mr. Peratis.

# 2 (Indicating to bailiff.)

# 3 THE CLERK:

You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

# 4 THANO PERATIS:

I do.

# 5 THE CLERK:

Please be --

# 6 THE BAILIFF:

Please be seated, sir.

# 7 THE CLERK:

And, sir, would you please state and spell your name for the record.

# 8 THANO PERATIS:

Thano Peratis, T-h-a-n-o P-e-r-a-t-i-s.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BLASIER:

# 9 Q:

Mr. Peratis, you have some heart problems, do you not?

# 10 A:

Yes.

# 11 Q:

Okay.

If you need to take a break just say the word, okay?

# 12 (Nodded affirmatively.)

# 13 Q:

Can you please tell the folks on the jury what your occupation is?

# 14 A:

Registered nurse.

# 15 Q:

And by whom are you employed?

# 16 A:

City of Los Angeles.

# 17 Q:

Now, where did you work for the city?

# 18 A:

Parker Center Jail.

# 19 Q:

Now, you are a nurse in the county jail, correct?

# 20 A:

In the city jail.

# 21 Q:

In the city jail.

How long have you been a nurse overall?

# 22 A:

Overall, since I was in the navy, I would say approximately 40 years.

# 23 Q:

All right. You've been a nurse for 40 years approximately?

# 24 A:

Approximately.

# 25 Q:

And you went through the required nurses school that allowed you to become a registered nurse?

# 26 A:

Yes.

# 27 Q:

And you did very well at your courses to become a registered nurse, did you not?

# 28 A:

Yes.

# 29 Q:

You were a good student?

# 30 A:

I should hope so.

# 31 Q:

Okay.

And of your 40 years as a nurse, how much of that has been with the city jail?

# 32 A:

I just completed 33 years.

# 33 Q:

Okay.

So you have 33 years with the city. Seven years presumably prior to that you had nursing experience at some other location?

# 34 A:

Yes.

# 35 Q:

Now, your job in the jail is a very important one, is it not?

# 36 A:

Yes.

# 37 Q:

You have a fair amount of responsibility with respect to the inmates that might be ill or other responsibilities that you have; isn't that correct?

# 38 A:

Yes.

# 39 Q:

Now, during the course of your training, as well as your experiences as a nurse for 40 years, one of your main responsibilities as a nurse is measuring things, correct, like medications?

# 40 A:

Yes.

# 41 Q:

And it's very important that when you measure a medication for an inmate or whoever, that you do it precisely, correct?

# 42 A:

Yes.

# 43 Q:

And you pride yourself on being very good at that, don't you?

# 44 A:

In many occasions, yes.

# 45 Q:

Now, on June 13 of 1994, you were working in the infirmary, were you not?

# 46 A:

Yes.

# 47 Q:

And in the afternoon, at approximately 1:30, Mr. Simpson was brought into the jail infirmary, correct?

# 48 A:

Yes.

# 49 Q:

And do I have the time right, about 1:30?

You can refer to anything you need to.

# 50 A:

Brought in 2:25.

# 51 Q:

I'm sorry?

# 52 A:

2:25.

# 53 Q:

2:25.

Is it accurate that he was brought into the infirmary for you to do basically two things: One, draw his blood, and two, examine his finger, examine the cut on his finger?

# 54 A:

My first understanding was he was brought in for me to draw some blood. After I drew the blood, I was asked to treat his finger.

# 55 Q:

You were asked to examine his finger after you did the blood?

# 56 A:

To treat it.

# 57 Q:

Now, prior to the time that you drew Mr. Simpson's blood, you checked his vital signs, did you not?

# 58 A:

Yes, I did.

# 59 Q:

What did that consist of?

# 60 A:

Blood pressure, pulse, temperature.

# 61 Q:

Was his blood pressure a little high?

# 62 A:

130 over 90.

# 63 Q:

That a little bit high?

# 64 A:

Slightly.

# 65 Q:

Now, I want to ask you about -- before I ask you about the blood, I want to ask you about examining his finger.

Detective Vannatter asked you to examine Mr. Simpson's finger, correct, or his hand?

# 66 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection, hearsay, Your Honor.

# 67 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 68 A:

I was asked to check a cut on his finger.

# 69 Q:

Well, were you asked to check his hand?

# 70 A:

No.

# 71 Q:

Do you remember testifying in a deposition in this case?

# 72 MR. MEDVENE:

Excuse me. Page and line?

# 73 MR. BLASIER:

86, line 25.

MR. P. BAKER: Which is the depo.

# 74 MR. BLASIER:

Yes.

MR. P. BAKER: Here it is.

# 75 MR. BLASIER:

Page 86, at the bottom.

# 76 MR. PETROCELLI:

Through where?

# 77 MR. MEDVENE:

From where to where, Mr. Blasier?

# 78 MR. BLASIER:

I'm checking.

Starting at page -- I'm sorry. Line 24 on 86. And I'll read as far as you want me to.

Where do you want me to stop?

# 79 MR. MEDVENE:

I want you to go -- pick up 87, line 16, and over on page 89, question 1 through --

# 80 MR. BLASIER:

I'll to go 16 and then you can do the rest if you want.

# 81 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Do you recall in the deposition that we took, I was present? Do you remember that?

# 82 A:

Yes.

# 83 MR. BLASIER:

Can we have that bigger so we can see it. I can't see it.

Okay. Let's try.

# 84 (Transcript displayed on Elmo.)

# 85 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Starting at 86.

Do you remember they -- by the way, you were under oath at that time, correct?

# 86 A:

Yes.

# 87 Q:

And prior to your testimony in that deposition, you had spent some time with the plaintiffs' attorneys, had you not? Mr. Medvene?

# 88 A:

Are you talking about the day of the deposition?

# 89 Q:

Any time before that.

# 90 A:

I don't --

# 91 Q:

I'm sorry?

# 92 A:

I don't believe so. I can't remember.

# 93 Q:

Okay.

# 94 A:

Did I spend any time with them though --

# 95 Q:

Incidentally, one of the side effects of the heart problems that you've had is memory loss; isn't that correct?

# 96 A:

Yes.

# 97 Q:

Do you recall being asked by myself,

# 98 (Reading:)

# 99 Q:

At some point you examined

Mr. Simpson's hand, left hand, do you

recall that? A. Yes. Q. Why did you do that? A. Because I was asked to. Q. Who asked you to? A. I believe it was

Vannatter.

# 100 Q:

Then there was an objection.

And at line 14 I ask: (Reading:)

At some point were you asked to

do something with respect to

Mr. Simpson's hand or hands?

# 101 Q:

And then you answered: (Reading:)

Not hand. I may have heard from

Mr. Vannatter -- I put the dressing -- I

went to put a dressing on Mr. Simpson's

arm and he said I don't need that.

# 102 Q:

Remember that testimony?

# 103 A:

Yes.

# 104 Q:

Okay.

# 105 MR. PETROCELLI:

Read the next question and answer.

# 106 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Did you say that during that deposition?

# 107 MR. MEDVENE:

Excuse me.

# 108 MR. PETROCELLI:

Next question and answer shown on the screen.

# 109 MR. BLASIER:

You said to 16.

# 110 (Reading:)

# 111 Q:

Who said that? A. Mr. Simpson.

# 112 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Were you aware at the time of the deposition being taken, that it was a significant issue with respect to whether you examined Mr. Simpson hands?

# 113 A:

I didn't hear you.

# 114 MR. MEDVENE:

You didn't read the next line.

# 115 THE COURT:

Mr. Medvene, you told him line 16 and he read to line 16. Now you want to do something on your own examination, save it for there.

# 116 MR. MEDVENE:

Excuse me, Your Honor. He stopped in the middle. It says, at some point were you asked to do something with respect to Mr. Simpson's hand or hands, and he said not hand.

# 117 THE COURT:

Mr. Medvene, do it on your examination.

# 118 MR. MEDVENE:

All right.

# 119 MR. BLASIER:

I thought I read that.

# 120 THE COURT:

Mr. Blasier, commence your examination.

# 121 MR. BLASIER:

Thank you, Your Honor.

# 122 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Now, is it your testimony here today -- well, tell us what it is you recall today, about what you were asked to do with respect to Mr. Simpson's hand or finger?

# 123 A:

I -- After I drew the blood, I heard -- I think it was Mr. Vannatter, I don't know which one it was, request you take a look at Mr. Simpson's finger, or words to that effect.

# 124 Q:

Okay.

# 125 A:

Would you take a look at his finger.

# 126 Q:

Okay. All right.

# 127 A:

Which I did.

# 128 Q:

And you did that by -- how did you do it?

# 129 A:

Picking up his hand, looking at his finger, cleaning it off with some Aqueous Zephrin -- I'm sorry, some Betadine, then I put a dressing on it, a band-aid.

# 130 Q:

And you're trained to identify injuries as a nurse, correct?

# 131 A:

Yeah. Yes.

# 132 Q:

And the only injury on his hand was the cut on the middle finger, correct?

# 133 A:

That's the only place I looked 'cause it was -- that was specifically mentioned to me.

# 134 Q:

Okay.

Were you told don't look at his other fingers? I mean his fingers were attached to the rest of his hand, weren't they?

# 135 A:

No, I was asked could you please look at that finger, and that's all. I didn't do any full examination. Mr. Simpson was not under arrest. I had no doctor there. All I did was just clean off that one finger, and that was it. I didn't look to see if there was anything else.

# 136 Q:

You didn't see anything -- any other --

# 137 A:

That's all I looked at was that one finger.

# 138 Q:

Detective Lange was there as well, was he not?

# 139 A:

Yes.

# 140 Q:

Neither Detective Vannatter nor Detective Lange directed your attention to any other injury; is that correct?

# 141 A:

No, not that I remember.

# 142 Q:

That's correct?

# 143 A:

That's correct. I do not remember that happening.

# 144 Q:

Okay.

Now, I want to ask you some questions about the blood that you drew.

Certainly, would you agree that the security of a reference blood sample is very important?

# 145 A:

Yes.

# 146 Q:

And you know what a reference blood sample is, do you not?

# 147 A:

A reference blood sample?

# 148 Q:

That's taken from a suspect.

# 149 A:

You mean the blood I drew?

# 150 Q:

Yeah.

And you brought to me yesterday an envelope --

# 151 MR. BAKER:

It's 2251 I believe.

# 152 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) A gray envelope that's called an analyzed evidence envelope, correct?

# 153 A:

Yes.

# 154 Q:

And that envelope sets forth the procedure that's to be used in drawing somebody's blood, correct?

# 155 A:

Yes.

# 156 Q:

And let me show you this first, and we'll put it on the Elmo.

This is one of those envelopes, is it not?

# 157 A:

Yes.

# 158 Q:

And this is 2251 -- let's start at the top.

Now, at the top of this envelope it says analyzed evidence to be refrigerated.

That is the correct procedure with respect to blood, that it should be refrigerated, correct?

# 159 A:

I have nothing to do with that.

# 160 Q:

Well, I'm asking you if that's the correct procedure, or do you know?

# 161 A:

Blood should be refrigerated, yes.

# 162 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection, foundation.

# 163 THE COURT:

Excuse me. There's been an objection, lack of foundation. Sustained.

# 164 MR. KELLY:

Stricken.

# 165 MR. MEDVENE:

We'd move to strike the answer.

# 166 THE COURT:

Stricken.

# 167 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Is blood supposed to be refrigerated?

# 168 THE COURT:

What was his foundation?

# 169 MR. BLASIER:

He's a nurse.

# 170 THE COURT:

So, he's a nurse.

# 171 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Mr. Peratis --

# 172 THE COURT:

Lay some foundation with regard to, if you're going do something, about what he's supposed to do or evidence preservation. There's been no foundation other than he drew blood.

# 173 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Part of your training as a nurse is to know how to preserve blood?

# 174 A:

Nurses don't preserve the blood. We take it to the lab in a general hospital. We would take it to the laboratory. They would do what they do with it. We don't keep it.

# 175 Q:

Okay.

My question is was part of your training as a nurse about refrigerating blood, that blood should be refrigerated?

# 176 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection.

# 177 THANO PERATIS:

Blood to be refrigerated?

# 178 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection, lack of foundation.

# 179 THE COURT:

It's a general question, blood should be refrigerated?

# 180 MR. BLASIER:

Yeah. And he said as he's trained, yes.

# 181 THE COURT:

What kind of blood?

# 182 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Blood such as blood drawn that you drew from Mr. Simpson?

# 183 A:

Any blood drawn that has to be examined is to be refrigerated.

# 184 Q:

Okay. Thank you. That wasn't too hard.

Now, it's also required procedure that the person drawing the blood, meaning you, is to completely fill up the vial, correct?

# 185 MR. BLASIER:

We're looking at B. Excuse me.

# 186 (Exhibit 2251 displayed.)

# 187 MR. MEDVENE:

That doesn't say that, Your Honor.

# 188 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) It says the officer requesting withdrawing of the blood is to tell you to fill up the vial, correct?

# 189 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection, that document speaks for itself, Your Honor.

# 190 MR. BLASIER:

It's foundational.

# 191 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 192 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) The vial is supposed to be filled up, correct?

# 193 A:

The vial is supposed to be. Good luck if you can fill the vial up all the time.

# 194 Q:

According to procedure on the envelope?

# 195 A:

According to that, it's supposed to be filled up.

THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. Does that have a number?

MR. P. BAKER: 2251.

# 196 (Exhibit 2251 displayed.)

# 197 MR. BLASIER:

Your Honor, this might be a good time.

# 198 THE COURT:

Okay. 1:30, ladies and gentlemen.

Don't talk about the case, don't form or express any opinion.

# 199 (At 12:00 P.M. a recess was taken until 1:30 P.M. of the same day.)

# 200 (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER)

# 201 (The jurors resumed their respective seats.)

# 202 MR. BLASIER:

Thank you, Your Honor.

THANO PERATIS the witness on the stand at the time of the luncheon recess, having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. BLASIER:

# 203 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Mr. Peratis, at the break, we were talking about the analyzed evidence envelope. And this appears --

# 204 THANO PERATIS:

I can't hear you.

# 205 MR. BLASIER:

You can't hear me?

MR. P. BAKER: 2251.

# 206 (Exhibit 2251 displayed.)

# 207 MR. BLASIER:

Can you hear me now, Mr. Peratis?

# 208 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) At the bottom of this analyzed evidence envelope is an affidavit, correct?

# 209 A:

Yes.

# 210 Q:

And that's to be filled out by the officer, and signed under penalty of perjury by you, correct?

# 211 A:

Yes.

# 212 Q:

At the time the blood is drawn, correct?

# 213 A:

Yes.

# 214 Q:

And the required procedure is that, you fill this out at the time the blood is drawn, sign it, and put the blood in the envelope and seal it, correct?

# 215 A:

I don't put the blood in the envelope; the officer does.

# 216 Q:

It's required, though, to be sealed when this envelope is filled out, correct?

# 217 A:

I fill it out and hand it to the officer.

# 218 Q:

Okay.

But you see number 4 down here?

"When the affidavit is completed, sign below it as a witnessing officer and seal the vial in this envelope . . ." so the officer taking the blood is supposed to do what?

# 219 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Lack of foundation. The witness said what he did.

# 220 THE COURT:

You may inquire as to what he does.

# 221 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) You just -- in this case, did you fill out affidavit below?

# 222 A:

What?

# 223 Q:

Did you fill out the affidavit on the front of the envelope?

# 224 A:

Yes, I did.

# 225 Q:

Did you fill it out at the time that the blood was drawn?

# 226 A:

Just after I drew the blood.

# 227 Q:

Let's look at 2252. See if you -- can you look back at the TV, Mr. Peratis, see if you recognize this as --

# 228 MR. MEDVENE:

If the Court please, I don't know if the witness can see from there.

# 229 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Let me show it to you.

# 230 A:

I can see it.

# 231 MR. MEDVENE:

Okay.

# 232 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) So we're sure, let me help you -- show you 2252 that is a photograph of the front of the envelope with Mr. Simpson's reference -- Mr. Simpson's reference vial was put into, correct?

# 233 A:

Yes.

# 234 (Witness reviews Defendants' Exhibit 2252.)

# 235 Q:

Mr. Peratis, is it your testimony that -- Withdrawn.

Where did that envelope come from?

# 236 A:

We have some in the dispensary. And I think that one came from the dispensary. I'm not sure if it was brought in, or if I had it in the office. We have them, and some of them were brought in.

# 237 Q:

Did you ever sign the affidavits in blank?

# 238 A:

Pardon?

# 239 Q:

Did you ever -- do you ever sign the affidavits in blank before you collect the blood?

# 240 A:

Never.

# 241 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Relevance.

# 242 THE COURT:

You may ask him whether he signed this one in blank.

# 243 THANO PERATIS:

You mean before blood is drawn?

# 244 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Yeah.

# 245 A:

No.

# 246 Q:

Let me show you this one on the Elmo.

You see at the bottom where it's dated, by your signature?

And it's dated.

# 247 A:

I believe they had the wrong date, the wrong month.

Okay.

# 248 Q:

Did you fill out the top part where it says Thano Peratis?

# 249 A:

This is all my writing. That's my printing. This is my printing. That's my signature. (Indicating.)

# 250 Q:

You got the correct date in the body of the affidavit, correct 6-13-94?

# 251 A:

Yes. That's -- I believe that this is the wrong date, put the wrong one down.

# 252 Q:

Okay.

Did you fill this all out at one time?

# 253 A:

Yes.

# 254 THE REPORTER:

What number is this one?

MR. P. BAKER: 2252.

# 255 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 2252 displayed on the Elmo screen.)

# 256 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Detective Vannatter did not bring an envelope with him, did he?

# 257 A:

That, I can't remember.

# 258 Q:

Now, the procedure that you used with Mr. Simpson, to draw blood, was to use a syringe, correct?

# 259 A:

Yes.

# 260 Q:

And a 10-cc syringe?

# 261 A:

Yes.

# 262 Q:

Can we have this as an exhibit by reference?

# 263 THE CLERK:

By reference?

# 264 MR. BLASIER:

A number, actually, we can use.

# 265 THE CLERK:

That would be fine. 2254.

# 266 MR. BLASIER:

2254.

# 267 (The instrument herein referred to as a syringe was marked for identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 2254.)

# 268 Q:

Mr. Elmo [sic], I'm going to put it on the Elmo.

Does this appear to be the type of syringe that you used to draw Mr. Simpson's blood?

# 269 A:

Yes.

# 270 MR. BLASIER:

Why don't you zoom in a little.

# 271 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) It's calibrated, is it not?

# 272 A:

Yes.

# 273 Q:

It's quite easy to read the quantity of blood in that syringe, is it not?

# 274 A:

Yes.

# 275 Q:

It's calibrated down to -- looks like about two-tenths of a milliliter, correct?

# 276 A:

Calibrated down to ten cc's.

# 277 Q:

But I mean, between one cc and the next cc, it's broken down into two-tenths of a cc?

# 278 A:

Two-tenths.

# 279 Q:

Okay.

And after you drew Mr. Simpson's blood on the 13th, and it was in this syringe, you transferred it to --

# 280 MR. BLASIER:

And I need another number, Erin.

# 281 THE CLERK:

2255.

# 282 (The instrument herein referred to as An EDTA tube with a purple top on it was marked for identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 2255.)

# 283 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) 2255, which is called a purple-top EDTA tube?

# 284 A:

Correct.

# 285 Q:

That's what we have here on the Elmo, correct?

# 286 A:

Yes.

# 287 Q:

And that's a vial that has a preservative in it known as EDTA, correct?

# 288 A:

Yes.

# 289 Q:

The purpose of putting it in that kind of tube is to keep the blood from coagulating, right?

# 290 A:

It preserves it.

# 291 Q:

Okay.

Incidentally, you provided me with the syringe and the vacutainer yesterday?

# 292 A:

Yes.

# 293 Q:

It's called a --

# 294 A:

I'm sorry. I provided you with about three syringes there.

# 295 Q:

Okay.

But the one we have up here is the size that you used, correct?

# 296 A:

Yes.

# 297 Q:

And it's called a vacutainer because there's actually a vacuum in that purple-top vial, is there not?

# 298 A:

Yes.

# 299 MR. BLASIER:

You can take it down.

# 300 (Referring to Elmo screen.)

# 301 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Now, when you drew Mr. Simpson's blood on the 13th, isn't it accurate that you drew between 7.9 and 8.1 cc's of blood?

# 302 A:

At the time I drew the blood, that's what I thought I had drawn.

# 303 Q:

Okay.

# 304 A:

At that time.

# 305 Q:

Now, you were asked to testify at the grand jury hearing in this case, correct?

# 306 A:

Yes.

# 307 Q:

And that took place sometime within a couple weeks of your drawing Mr. Simpson's blood, correct?

# 308 A:

Yes.

# 309 Q:

And when you testified in front of the grand jury, Marcia Clark was asking you questions, correct?

# 310 A:

Yes.

# 311 Q:

And you were answering those questions to the best of your ability?

# 312 A:

Yes.

# 313 Q:

And you testified, did you not?

# 314 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Relevance, materiality. It's not inconsistent, to the best of my knowledge, what they're going to read. It's hearsay.

# 315 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 316 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Is it your testimony today that you withdrew 7.9 to 8.1 cc's of blood?

# 317 A:

No.

# 318 Q:

Okay.

That the grand jury -- do you recall being asked the following questions and giving the following answers:

I'm referring to page 370, line 23. Start at line 26.

Do you recall being asked this question at the grand jury: "Q. Can you describe for us

what is the method by which you removed

blood from Mr. Simpson. "A. I put a tourniquet on his

forearm, cleaned the site with aqueous

zephrin and put a 10-cc syringe with

about a number 20 needle in the vein in

his arm. And I withdrew about 8 cc's of

blood."

Is that what you testified to?

# 319 A:

I don't remember it, but if it's on there, I must have.

# 320 Q:

And do you also recall testifying, starting at line 10, you were asked again by Marcia Clark: "Approximately how much blood did you remove?"

And you answered, "approximately 8 cc's," correct?

# 321 A:

Again, I don't remember that.

It had to be there. I had to have done it, but I don't remember that.

# 322 Q:

And there was only about a two- or three-week period of time from the time you drew the blood, until you testified about the size of the needle, the size of the syringe, and how much you withdrew at the grand jury, correct?

# 323 A:

Yes.

# 324 Q:

Then shortly after that -- shortly after that, you testified at the preliminary hearing in the Simpson case, did you not?

You remember testifying at the preliminary hearing?

# 325 A:

Yes.

# 326 Q:

And Mr. Shapiro was asking you questions at that time, correct?

# 327 A:

Yes.

# 328 Q:

And that, too, was in early July of 1994, correct?

# 329 A:

Yes.

# 330 Q:

Within just a couple of weeks of your drawing Mr. Simpson's blood, correct?

# 331 A:

Yes.

# 332 Q:

And incidentally, you didn't have any heart problems between the 13th, when you drew his blood, and when you testified at the grand jury and at the preliminary hearing, did you?

# 333 A:

Oh, I have been having heart problems for 20 years.

# 334 Q:

Now, I'm saying between those two periods of time, you didn't have a heart attack, did you?

# 335 A:

No.

# 336 Q:

And how long had it been prior to June 13th that you had a heart attack?

# 337 A:

June 13.

# 338 Q:

1994?

# 339 A:

1994.

I had the heart attack in 1995, June.

# 340 Q:

But I'm talking about prior to June of '94.

# 341 A:

No.

# 342 Q:

You hadn't had one for a while, had you?

# 343 A:

No.

# 344 Q:

Now, do you remember being asked the following question: Question by Mr. Shapiro and giving the following answer that I'm referring to page 25 line 8. By Mr. Shapiro, "Q. How much blood did

you withdraw from Mr. Simpson. "A. Approximately 8

cc's.

# 345 MR. BLASIER:

Can you put this on the Elmo, please.

"Q. When you say

approximately, you did not measure the

amount. "A. Where well it

could have been 7.9 or it could have

been 8.1. I just looked at the syringe

and it looked at about 8 cc's I withdraw

the needle from his arm.

Do you remember testifying that way in the preliminary hearing?

# 346 A:

Yes.

# 347 Q:

And that was the state of your recollection, when you testified under oath, about three weeks after drawing Mr. Simpson's blood, correct?

# 348 A:

At that time.

# 349 Q:

That you had looked at the syringe. The calibrated syringe, correct.

# 350 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection?

# 351 A:

I never looked at the calibrations of the syringe.

# 352 Q:

You remember testifying that I just looked at the syringe?

# 353 A:

I -- Well, I looked at the syringe I didn't look at the calibrations.

# 354 Q:

Okay. And your best recollection at that time, your experience as a nurse when you drew between 7.9 and 8.1 cc's correct?

# 355 A:

That's correct.

# 356 Q:

All right. Now at some point after your sworn testimony at the grand jury and the preliminary hearing, you became aware of an issue with respect to whether blood was missing from that vial, did you not?

# 357 A:

Yes.

# 358 Q:

And that was about the time of the opening argument in the criminal case, was it not?

# 359 A:

Yes.

# 360 Q:

And you found out that Mr. Cochran had stated in his opening statement that there was about 1.5 to 2 cc's of blood missing from Mr. Simpson's reference vial, correct?

# 361 A:

Yes.

# 362 Q:

And by the way, how did you find that out?

# 363 A:

A friend of mine called me, told me.

# 364 Q:

Did you watch that opening statement on television?

# 365 A:

I didn't watch any of the trial.

# 366 Q:

You didn't watch any of the trial at all?

# 367 A:

None of it except --

# 368 Q:

Did you have a TV set up in your infirmary to watch the trial?

# 369 A:

There was a TV set up. I never watched it.

# 370 Q:

Now, after you found out that there was an issue about missing blood, you became very concerned, did you not --

# 371 A:

Yes.

# 372 Q:

-- about whether that had been a screw-up on your part?

# 373 A:

Yes.

# 374 Q:

Correct.

So you set about to determine whether or not you had made a mistake about how much blood you drew, correct?

# 375 A:

Correct.

# 376 Q:

And you tried to recreate what you did when?

# 377 A:

About two or three days later.

# 378 Q:

After the opening statements?

# 379 A:

Yes.

# 380 Q:

And you changed your testimony, did you not, or you changed your position and gave a different amount that you drew, correct?

# 381 A:

Yes.

# 382 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Gave where?

# 383 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 384 Q:

After you found out that that was an important issue, you changed your story, didn't you?

# 385 A:

When I found out I was wrong, I changed my story.

KEY QUOTE

# 386 Q:

And you told someone at the D.A.'s office, correct?

# 387 A:

Yes.

# 388 Q:

And to your knowledge, they told us, right?

# 389 A:

I -- What?

# 390 Q:

They told us?

# 391 A:

I told you.

# 392 Q:

You remember myself and Mr. Neufeld and Joe Ellen Dimitri, us coming over to your infirmary to talk to you about that?

# 393 A:

Yes.

# 394 Q:

We made an appointment in advance, correct?

# 395 A:

Yes.

# 396 Q:

Mr. Peratis, don't you remember, as we walked in, you had a big television set there, with the trial on, and you made a comment, "Gee, I just saw you guys on television."

# 397 MR. MEDVENE:

Relevancy, immaterial.

# 398 THANO PERATIS:

The television was on.

# 399 THE COURT:

Excuse me.

Overruled.

# 400 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Do you remember that?

# 401 A:

The --

# 402 Q:

You can answer.

# 403 A:

The television was on. I may have seen you there.

I was never -- I wasn't watching the trial. Maybe I would glance up once in a while. When I'm at work, I'm too busy to watch television.

# 404 Q:

I'm sorry. Are you done?

# 405 A:

I said when I'm at work, I'm too busy to watch television.

# 406 Q:

When you were testifying at the preliminary hearing, that was on television, was it not?

# 407 A:

Yes.

# 408 Q:

And you made it a point to videotape your own testimony, did you not?

# 409 A:

Yes.

# 410 Q:

And you showed it to a bunch of your friends, didn't you?

# 411 A:

Yes.

# 412 Q:

At any time you viewed that videotape prior to the time that you found out there was an issue about missing blood, did you ever tell any of your friends or anybody, "Gee, I made a mistake; I really didn't draw 7.9 to 8.1 cc's of blood."?

# 413 A:

The minute I heard about it. And I --

# 414 Q:

I'm talking --

# 415 A:

Maybe I misunderstood your question.

# 416 Q:

Before you found out that that was an important issue in the criminal case, did you tell anyone, after reviewing your videotape with your friends, or at any other time, "Gee, I made a mistake; I really didn't draw approximately 8 cc's."?

# 417 A:

I think the only people I told were you, and Mr. Neufeld and the D.A.

# 418 Q:

Okay.

So prior to learning from Mr. Cochran's opening statement, you didn't tell anybody that you'd made a mistake, did you?

# 419 A:

No.

I didn't know I had made a mistake.

# 420 Q:

Now, at some time in 1995, you did have a heart attack, right?

# 421 A:

Yes.

# 422 Q:

And that was when?

# 423 A:

About June 1 -- 1st of June.

# 424 Q:

And you were not actually called as a witness to testify at the criminal case, correct?

# 425 A:

Yes; I had a subpoena.

# 426 Q:

You were -- you weren't called to testify as a witness, though, were you?

# 427 A:

No.

# 428 Q:

Now, after your heart attack in June of 1995, you experienced problems with memory loss, didn't you?

# 429 A:

Yes.

# 430 Q:

And it was after that time that you had an interview with Mr. Goldberg, where you tried to recreate how much blood of Mr. Simpson you'd actually drawn, correct?

# 431 A:

Yes.

# 432 Q:

And your recollection of those events, when you made that -- did that interview with Mr. Goldberg, was not nearly as fresh as they had been two and three weeks after you actually drew the blood; isn't that correct?

# 433 A:

I would say so.

# 434 Q:

So certainly, your best recollection of how much blood you drew was from two and three weeks after you drew the blood, as opposed to after you had your heart attack; isn't that correct?

# 435 A:

I didn't quite understand the question.

# 436 Q:

Your best recollection of how much blood you drew, would have been two or three weeks after you drew it, when you testified twice under oath that it was about 8 cc's, correct?

# 437 A:

Well, I -- I remember drawing the blood. That's -- the 8 cc's, I know I was wrong. I can't say that -- I mean, you've got me all confused now.

# 438 Q:

Okay.

After your heart attack, and after you had an interview with Mr. Goldberg, what was your statement as to how much blood you had actually drawn?

# 439 A:

Approximately six and a half cc's, after I found out, and I told Mr. Goldberg.

# 440 Q:

It was six to six and a half, wasn't it?

# 441 A:

Six to six and a half.

# 442 Q:

And it accounted exactly for the amounts that Mr. Cochran had described as being missing from Mr. Simpson's reference vial during his opening statement in the criminal trial; isn't that correct?

# 443 A:

I guess so.

# 444 Q:

Incidentally, Mr. Goldberg was a prosecutor in the criminal case, was he not?

# 445 A:

Pardon?

# 446 Q:

Mr. Goldberg was a deputy D.A. in the criminal case, was he not?

# 447 A:

Yes.

# 448 MR. BLASIER:

That's all I have.

# 449 THE COURT:

Cross. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MEDVENE:

# 450 Q:

Good afternoon, Mr. Peratis.

Were you told how much blood to draw on June 13, by Detective Vannatter?

# 451 A:

No.

# 452 Q:

By Detective Lange?

# 453 A:

No.

# 454 Q:

By anyone?

# 455 A:

No.

# 456 Q:

Were you told to take any particular amount for dosage purposes?

# 457 A:

No.

# 458 Q:

Were you trying, at the time, to draw a specific amount, a specific number of cc's?

# 459 A:

Not really.

# 460 Q:

Now, on June 13, immediately after drawing Mr. Simpson's blood, did you measure the amount that you drew?

# 461 A:

No.

# 462 Q:

Did you write down any amounts that you drew?

# 463 A:

No.

# 464 Q:

Do you have any general practice, in drawing blood, to write down the amount that you draw?

# 465 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Irrelevant.

# 466 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 467 Q:

Now, when you drew the blood from Mr. Simpson, can you explain to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how you inserted the needle and where the calibration was when you inserted the needle and drew the blood.

# 468 A:

Insert -- inserting the needle, you have a bevel. You want the bevel up, so you can see where you're going.

Okay. Now, as I inserted, when I had the bevel up, the calibration is on the bottom. So when I inserted the needle, I couldn't see what I was drawing.

And then when I was -- I was drawing the blood back, at a certain point, it -- it -- the blood stopped, which means that the wall of the vein hit the bevel of the needle.

You can turn the syringe and draw more, which, in my opinion, could cause damage to the vein, so I didn't do that.

I just looked -- it looked like it was enough blood to test. I said, "Officers, is this enough?"

I heard a yes. I withdrew the needle, and immediately put a sponge on Mr. Simpson. Immediately, I took the syringe and put it in a vacutainer, and it sucked in the blood.

I threw out the syringe in a place -- in a decontaminated spot, where we throw all our syringes.

# 469 Q:

So are you saying, as you were drawing the blood, before you filled the vial, the blood stopped going into the vial because it hit the vein?

# 470 A:

The blood --

# 471 MR. BLASIER:

Objection.

# 472 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 473 A:

(Continuing.) The blood was coming into the syringe, but at a certain point, apparently the wall of the vein hit the needle.

# 474 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Move to strike.

# 475 A:

(Continuing.) The blood stopped --

# 476 MR. BLAZIER:

He's speculating.

# 477 THE COURT:

Overruled.

That seems to be one of the things he does for a living.

KEY QUOTE

# 478 A:

(Continuing.) The blood stopped --

# 479 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) The blood stopped while you were drawing?

# 480 A:

-- coming into the syringe. I could have possibly pulled more by turning the syringe. That can cause trauma to the vein. We don't want to do that.

We had enough blood, so I withdrew the needle, put a sponge on Mr. -- put a sponge on Mr. Simpson's arm, and taped it, took the syringe, and immediately stuck the needle into the tube. The tube sucked the blood.

# 481 Q:

Let me --

# 482 A:

I -- can I demonstrate that? It would be a lot easier than saying it.

I'm not going to do any sticking; I'll just show you what I did.

# 483 Q:

I understand. He's only going to put before you what's been marked 2254 --

# 484 MR. PETROCELLI:

And 55.

# 485 Q:

-- Which is the syringe.

# 486 MR. PETROCELLI:

55.

# 487 Q:

And 2255, which has the purple top. And ask, with the Court's permission, if you might stand. If you feel up to that, and show the jury exactly what you did, and explain to them, let's say, with my arm, if you want, where the calibration was.

# 488 A:

May I take this off?

# 489 Q:

Yes, sir.

# 490 (Witness removes purple top.)

# 491 Q:

Can you show this to the jury?

# 492 A:

Yes, sir.

Here, when I talk about the bevel of the needle -- (indicating to the jury) -- being up so I can see it --

# 493 Q:

You have to speak up.

# 494 A:

So I could see the bevel.

See how the bevel is there? You always want to watch that. (Indicating.)

# 495 THE COURT:

Show the jurors at the other end, too.

# 496 THANO PERATIS:

You see the calibrations were at the end, too.

# 497 THE COURT:

I don't think all the jurors can see a bevel that size.

# 498 MR. MEDVENE:

You want to stand that close.

# 499 THE COURT:

Unless you want to put it on the Elmo.

# 500 THANO PERATIS:

We draw the blood.

# 501 THE COURT:

Just show them the bevel first.

# 502 THANO PERATIS:

Yeah, okay.

Here's the bevel.

# 503 MR. MEDVENE:

Show the other jurors the bevel.

Everybody see?

# 504 (Witness approaches the jury.)

# 505 THE COURT:

Okay. Don't talk to the jury; just show them the bevel.

Can all the jurors at the far end, can you see the bevel that the witness referred to as the bevel?

# 506 JURORS:

Yes, Your Honor.

# 507 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Now, would you now describe what you did. You describe the bevel.

# 508 A:

I inject it into the arm.

# 509 Q:

You injected it into the arm, and then what did you do?

# 510 A:

I put the needle in the arm. When I knew I was in the vein, I started pulling the blood out.

# 511 Q:

And then what happened?

# 512 A:

At about this point (indicating) somewhere around this point, it stopped.

I could have done this. (Indicating.)

# 513 Q:

You could have turned to the right?

# 514 A:

Yes, which might have hurt, harmed a vein. We had enough blood, so. . .

# 515 Q:

You had enough blood. How did you know you had enough?

# 516 A:

You have enough blood when you have that much? (Indicating.)

# 517 Q:

Did you ask the officers if you had enough blood?

# 518 A:

I asked the officer, does it look like we've got enough blood that you guys want?

Yes. You can do DNA in that small amount. (Indicating)

# 519 Q:

So the officer said yes.

Then what did you do?

# 520 A:

So I withdraw the syringe, put a band-aid on Mr. Simpson's arm, and then took -- put this back on (indicating to purple cap.) Took this.

# 521 Q:

By "taking this," you mean?

# 522 A:

Took the vacutainer and stuck the needle -- I'm not going to stick it in there, but I jabbed it right in there. There's a vacuum in there, and it sucks the blood right in.

As soon as I did that, without looking at this anymore, I took the syringe and deposited it into a receptacle we have for contaminated syringes, handed this to the officer -- that's the vacutainer I handed to the officer.

# 523 Q:

Mr. Peratis, or Nurse Peratis, I want to ask you one other question.

Could you show the jury the position of the calibration as you were putting the needle into Mr. Simpson's arm.

# 524 A:

The calibrations are here. (Indicating to syringe.)

# 525 Q:

You're pointing to the top, or where the calibrations are?

# 526 A:

Okay. I was putting the needle in Mr. Simpson arm in this way. (Indicating.)

# 527 Q:

By the way, were the calibrations down?

# 528 A:

The calibrations were down, because the bevel was up, you have to watch the bevel when -- when you go into a vein.

# 529 Q:

And then when you removed the needle, did you turn the syringe over to look at the calibrations?

# 530 A:

No.

# 531 Q:

Did anybody ask you to?

# 532 A:

No.

# 533 Q:

Now, incidentally, do you ordinarily use a syringe?

# 534 A:

No.

# 535 Q:

What did you ordinarily use to take blood at the dispensary?

# 536 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Irrelevant.

# 537 THE COURT:

Overruled?

# 538 A:

I use a vacutainer, which they have over there.

# 539 Q:

Excuse me?

# 540 MR. BLASIER:

Irrelevant. He didn't do it this time.

# 541 THE COURT:

Just show him what a vacutainer is.

# 542 A:

No, this is the vacutainer, too. The vacutainer is that -- that thing that it goes into.

# 543 MR. MEDVENE:

Okay.

# 544 A:

(Continuing.) I believe I gave you one. It's in that little pile.

# 545 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Irrelevant. He didn't use it.

# 546 THE COURT:

Mr. Medvene, if you're going to go into this, I'm going to let them go into collection techniques.

# 547 MR. MEDVENE:

If we ask about the vacutainer?

# 548 MR. BLASIER:

Withdrawn.

# 549 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 550 MR. MEDVENE:

You're the judge.

# 551 (Laughter.)

# 552 MR. BAKER:

Go ahead, Ed, go ahead.

# 553 (Laughter.)

# 554 MR. PETROCELLI:

No thanks.

# 555 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Why did you use the syringe in this case?

# 556 A:

On certain people, I make an evaluation on an arm, and when certain people are pretty muscular, the veins are a little hard to get, and it's a little hard to control with the vacutainer, and it's easier to control with the syringe.

# 557 Q:

Is it -- is it correct, sir, that you use the syringe very infrequently to draw blood?

# 558 A:

That's correct.

# 559 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Irrelevant.

# 560 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 561 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) And is it accurate that you don't and haven't measured how much blood you draw when you do -- presently use the syringe?

# 562 A:

We never measure blood.

# 563 Q:

Now, let's go to the experiment that you discussed with Mr. Blasier.

Did anyone from the District Attorney's office ask you to do any experiment of any kind to see how much blood you drew to get an exact amount?

# 564 A:

At my home, yes.

# 565 Q:

Prior to that?

# 566 A:

No.

# 567 Q:

Did you do the experiment, yourself, prior to seeing anyone from the D.A.'s office?

# 568 A:

Yes; I did one, did it myself first.

# 569 Q:

Okay.

# 570 A:

Then --

# 571 Q:

Let's start there.

Did anyone ask you to do that experiment that you say you did first?

# 572 A:

No. I just took it on my own to do it.

# 573 Q:

Why?

# 574 A:

Well, after I heard -- after I heard what I heard about the blood missing, I put 8 cc's in one of these things to see what it looked like, and it was more than what it looked like I had -- I handed to them.

So I withdraw some blood until it looked like what I had I handed to them, and it came out within -- between that six and six and a half cc's, which I just measured. I was just drawing one cc at a time out, until it looked like what it was.

But it was still an estimation.

# 575 Q:

And how did you do the measurements?

What did you physically do?

Did you take a cc and drop it in a certain amount at a time?

# 576 A:

Okay.

I pulled up 8 cc's of water. I squirted it into that. Like, it was too much. I pulled out one cc, dumped it out. Pulled out another cc, dumped it out. And it looked like between there.

After I took it out, the 2 cc's, it looked like a little bit more than 6 cc's. I estimated about six and a half cc's, and that was it.

# 577 Q:

Now, when you gave the testimony that was read to you at the preliminary hearing about the 8 cc's, you also said at that time that nobody asked you to take a precise amount of blood; isn't that correct.

# 578 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Improper impeachment.

# 579 THE COURT:

Excuse me?

# 580 MR. BLASIER:

It's not impeaching; it's improper.

# 581 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 582 A:

Yes.

# 583 Q:

You also said at that time when you talked about how much blood you thought you withdraw, that nobody had asked you to take out a precise amount of blood; isn't that correct?

# 584 A:

That's correct.

# 585 Q:

And that you didn't record the amount of blood you withdrew; isn't that true?

# 586 A:

That's correct.

# 587 Q:

Now, why -- why did you give that estimate, then, that you gave about the 8 cc's, and tell us now you think it was six, six and a half, did you ever measure before, for example, to see if it was 8 cc's?

# 588 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Compound.

# 589 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 590 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Have you ever, prior to the time you testified at the preliminary hearing and the grand jury, had you ever measured the amount of blood that you would withdraw from someone's arm?

# 591 A:

No.

# 592 Q:

Never?

# 593 A:

Never.

# 594 Q:

Why did you say the amount that you said?

# 595 A:

Up to this time, I think that anyone that would draw blood, if they were asked that question, think of 8 cc's as about the amount that we draw. And that is about the first thing they think. And that was the first thing that came out of my mouth. The correct answer at that time should have been, "I don't know how much I drew."

# 596 Q:

Why would that have been the correct answer? Because you didn't know?

# 597 A:

No, I didn't, really; didn't really know; it was a guess. It was an educated guess, you might say. I happened to be wrong in that case. Many times I would have been right.

# 598 Q:

Because sometimes it's one amount and sometimes it's another?

# 599 A:

Yes.

# 600 Q:

And after -- And so that the record's clear, you went through and performed the test, and for the first time, actually measured, or attempted to measure how much blood you withdrew, and you did that on your own?

# 601 A:

Yes.

# 602 Q:

And it was after that, that you shared this information with Mr. Blasier and another defense counsel, Mr. Neufeld, and Ms. Joanne Dimitri; they're jury consultants. You did that?

# 603 A:

Yes.

# 604 Q:

You told them exactly?

# 605 A:

Yes.

# 606 Q:

And you also then had occasion, for the first time, to tell Mr. Goldberg, the District Attorney?

# 607 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Misstates his testimony.

# 608 THE COURT:

That's a question. Overruled.

I take it that's a question.

# 609 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) You then told Mr. Goldberg?

# 610 A:

I had told Mr. Goldberg, but I hadn't shown him before I showed it to Mr. -- Mr. Goldberg at my home. [sic]

# 611 Q:

Okay. Let me move then, if I can, to the cut on the middle finger, the left hand.

Mr. Blasier had read you certain portions of the transcript. And if I might, Your Honor, I'd just like to read three brief portions to put that portion in context, if I might, from the deposition transcript, the questioning by Mr. Blasier.

# 612 THE COURT:

Okay, go ahead.

# 613 MR. BLASIER:

What page?

# 614 MR. MEDVENE:

At page 87, I'm going to read from line 14, through page 88, line 1. I believe Mr. Blasier read up to line 19, but to put it in context, I'll read that whole section.

At some point -- A question by Mr. Blasier: "Q. At some point, were you

asked to do something with respect to

Mr. Simpson's hand or hands? "A. Not hand. I -- I may

have heard from Mr. Vannatter. I put

the dressing -- I went to put a dressing

on Mr. Simpson's arm and he said, I

don't need that. So . . . "Q. (BY MR. BLASIER) Who

said that? "A. Mr. Simpson. I wanted to

put a pressure dressing. He said he

didn't need it. So I heard a voice -- I

thought it was Phil, but it may not have

been -- 'do you mind checking his

finger,' or words to that effect."

At page 89 lines -- line 1, through page 90, I believe, line 4. "Q. (BY MR. BLASIER)

Somebody said do you mind checking his

finger? What's your best recollection of

the exact words that were used? "A. 'Could you take a look at

the finger,' something like that. "I can't -- You know, it

was just in passing. And I said 'sure.'

All I did was take a look at it and kind

of, like a courtesy I'd give to any

officer that's cut or something, just

gave it a -- cleaned it off and dressed

it. "Q. When you heard someone

say, 'will you take a look at his

finger,' did you say anything? "A. I think I said yes. "Q. Did anyone tell you which

finger to look at? "A. Not that I know. I

think -- Which finger are -- are -- are

we talking about? I don't know how it

got that -- Maybe Mr. Simpson had me

look at his finger or whatever. I just

looked at it. I mean, it was there. I

looked at it. "Q. Did you look at his hand? "A. No. "Q. How did you know which

finger to look at, if you know. "A. It was obvious. You

could see it was obvious. "Q. How was it obvious? "A. It was a -- it was a --

looked like a kind of older -- an old

scratch or old cut, looked like a little

skin had been kind of scraped off." And

then "(Indicating.)"

And then counsel makes reference or says, "The witness is pointing to the middle finger of the left hand when he was describing the finger Mr. Simpson showed him. " "Q. Now, when you said it

looked like an old cut, what did you

mean? "A. It could have been

something about 12, 24 hours old. It's

a little hard to judge those things.

And then two other quick portions at page 94, lines 15 through 18. "Q. Were you looking --

# 615 MR. BLASIER:

Mr. Medvene, can I have a chance to look?

# 616 MR. MEDVENE:

Oh, yes. I'm sorry.

# 617 MR. BLASIER:

15 to when?

# 618 MR. MEDVENE:

15 to 18.

# 619 MR. BLASIER:

I would object. It's not impeaching.

# 620 MR. MEDVENE:

The question is, were you looking at his hand?

# 621 MR. BAKER:

Wait. We object.

# 622 THE COURT:

Just a minute.

# 623 MR. MEDVENE:

I'm sorry.

# 624 MR. BLASIER:

I'd object. It's not impeaching.

# 625 MR. PETROCELLI:

It's rehab.

# 626 MR. MEDVENE:

It's rehabilitation for what Mr. Blasier said. It's putting in context what Mr. Blasier read.

# 627 THE COURT:

Go ahead and read it.

# 628 MR. MEDVENE:

(Reading:) "Q. Were you looking at his

hand when you cleaned the finger? "A. Only the finger that I

was cleaning."

And the last portion, at page 94, line -- looks like 25 through page 96, line 1. "Q. Because you didn't

observe anything else that required any

kind of medical attention; is that

right? "A. I -- I didn't look."

# 629 MR. MEDVENE:

I have nothing further. Thank you very much, Mr. Peratis.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Thano Peratis

When I found out I was wrong, I changed my story.

Peratis openly admits changing his testimony — framing it as a correction, but the defense used this to suggest his revision was motivated by learning about the missing blood issue rather than genuine recollection.

Thano Peratis

The correct answer at that time should have been, 'I don't know how much I drew.'

Peratis acknowledges his original 8 cc testimony was a guess, undermining the reliability of his sworn statements at the grand jury and preliminary hearing.

Thano Peratis

It was an educated guess, you might say. I happened to be wrong in that case. Many times I would have been right.

Explicit concession that the 8 cc figure was not a measurement but a reflexive estimate, opening the door to questions about how precise any blood-quantity testimony could be.

Thano Peratis

It was a -- it was a -- looked like a kind of older -- an old scratch or old cut, looked like a little skin had been kind of scraped off.

Peratis's deposition description of Simpson's finger wound as appearing 12–24 hours old is relevant to the timeline of the murders.

Hiroshi Fujisaki

That seems to be one of the things he does for a living.

Judge's dry response to Blasier's objection that Peratis was speculating about vein mechanics — one of the few moments of levity in an otherwise tense proceeding.

Evidence (7)

Defendants' 2251

Analyzed evidence envelope — sets out required procedure for drawing, packaging, and refrigerating a blood reference sample, including affidavit to be signed under penalty of perjury

displayed on Elmo, used to establish chain-of-custody procedure and affidavit-dating discrepancy

Defendants' 2252

Photograph of the front of the analyzed evidence envelope used for Simpson's blood reference vial

introduced and reviewed by witness; Peratis confirmed the writing and signature were his but noted a wrong month in the date

Defendants' 2254

10-cc calibrated syringe, same type used to draw Simpson's blood

introduced and used by Peratis to demonstrate the blood-draw technique to the jury

Defendants' 2255

EDTA purple-top vacutainer tube — preservative vial blood was transferred into after being drawn

introduced and demonstrated by Peratis; used to show blood was transferred immediately and syringe discarded without re-reading calibrations

Informal

Grand jury transcript (page 370, lines 23–26) — Peratis testified to approximately 8 cc's withdrawn

read into record for impeachment

Informal

Preliminary hearing transcript (page 25, line 8) — Peratis testified '7.9 or 8.1, about 8 cc's'

read into record for impeachment; Peratis confirmed this was his testimony

+ 1 more

Notable Exchanges (4)

Robert Blasier•Thano Peratis

Blasier methodically walked Peratis through the timeline: original 8 cc testimony (weeks after the draw) → learning of missing blood from Cochran's opening → personal experiment → revised 6 to 6.5 cc estimate. Peratis acknowledged each step, conceding his original figure was a reflex guess and that his revised figure exactly matched the amount Cochran claimed was missing.

strategic/devastating

Edward Medvene•Hiroshi Fujisaki

Medvene repeatedly interrupted Blasier's direct examination to demand additional lines be read or to interject objections mid-answer. Fujisaki firmly redirected him multiple times: 'Mr. Medvene, do it on your examination.'

procedural friction

Edward Medvene•Thano Peratis

On cross, Medvene had Peratis physically demonstrate the blood-draw to the jury using the syringe and vacutainer, establishing that calibrations faced down during the draw, Peratis never flipped the syringe to read the amount, and he discarded the syringe immediately — supporting the narrative that the 8 cc figure was always an approximation, not a measurement.

rehabilitative/revealing

Robert Blasier•Thano Peratis

Blasier pressed Peratis on whether he had watched the trial (Peratis denied it), then confronted him with the fact that he had a TV on in the infirmary and had videotaped and shared his own preliminary hearing testimony with friends — undermining the claim he was oblivious to the trial's proceedings.

confrontational

Light Moments (2)

Edward Medvene / Daniel Petrocelli

After Medvene deferred to the judge on whether to continue a line of questioning about vacutainers, saying 'You're the judge,' the courtroom broke into laughter, followed by Petrocelli deadpanning 'No thanks' when Baker invited him to weigh in.

Hiroshi Fujisaki

When Blasier objected that Peratis was 'speculating' about vein mechanics, Fujisaki overruled with: 'That seems to be one of the things he does for a living.'

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Thano Peratis

prior inconsistent statements

Blasier introduced Peratis's grand jury and preliminary hearing testimony — both given under oath within weeks of the blood draw — stating approximately 8 cc's were withdrawn. Peratis later revised that figure to 6 to 6.5 cc's only after learning from Cochran's opening statement that blood was allegedly missing, and only after suffering a heart attack that he himself acknowledged caused memory loss.

⚔ Thano Peratis

bias / motivated revision

Blasier established that Peratis's revised estimate (6–6.5 cc's) precisely matched the amount Cochran claimed was missing, that the revision came after exposure to news of the missing-blood issue, and that Peratis had not spontaneously corrected anyone prior to that point despite having reviewed his own videotaped testimony with friends.

Witness Demeanor

(Nodded affirmatively.)

(Witness reviews Defendants' Exhibit 2252.)

(Witness removes purple top.)

(Indicating to the jury.)

(Witness approaches the jury.)

(Indicating to syringe.)

Objections

14 objections (4 sustained, 10 overruled)

Proceeding 8566 • 629 utterances • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103