Cross-examination of Thano Peratis

📄 Cross-examination of Thano Peratis — Tuesday, December 10, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\DEC\10\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-THANO-PER.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 29 of 57

◀ Direct examination of Thano Peratis Exhibits ▶

Witness: Thano Peratis
Examiner: Edward Medvene
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, December 10, 1996 • Utterances: 104

Defense attorney Blasier re-examines nurse Thano Peratis about the blood draw from OJ Simpson, pressing him on contradictions between his deposition testimony and current testimony regarding the needle bevel position and the amount of blood drawn. The critical revelation is that Peratis admits his earlier sworn estimate of 7.9 to 8.1 cc's was 'just a guess,' and that when he realized his testimony was wrong, he called the prosecution — not the defense.

# 1

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

# 2

BY MR. BLASIER:

# 3 Q:

Mr. Peratis, when you were looking at Mr. Simpson's middle finger, where were his other fingers?

# 4 A:

Pardon?

# 5 MR. MEDVENE:

Asked and answered.

# 6 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Where were the other fingers?

# 7 A:

On his hand.

# 8 THE COURT:

Excuse me.

# 9 MR. MEDVENE:

What we did, Your Honor, was just read in other sections of the deposition. We didn't ask him specific questions to put what Mr. Blasier read in context.

Mr. Blasier, I believe, asked his question in substance on his direct examination. We didn't ask any questions; what we did was just read in portions of the deposition.

# 10 MR. LEONARD:

Move to strike.

# 11 THE COURT:

What are you doing?

# 12 MR. LEONARD:

Move to strike.

# 13 THE COURT:

Motion is denied.

What do you want?

# 14 MR. MEDVENE:

We're objecting on the basis that it's improper redirect, Your Honor.

# 15 THE COURT:

Go ahead and examine him, Mr. Blasier.

# 16 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Did you make a conscious effort not to look the at fingers right next to the one you were examining?

# 17 A:

No.

# 18 Q:

Okay. Thank you.

Now, is it your testimony that 10 cc syringes always comes with a bevel facing away from the calibration?

# 19 A:

No.

# 20 Q:

They come all different ways, don't they?

# 21 A:

Correct.

# 22 Q:

Now, by the way, the little demonstration you did with the jurors, had you practiced that with Mr. Medvene?

# 23 A:

With who?

# 24 Q:

Mr. Medvene.

# 25 A:

No.

# 26 Q:

Or anyone else?

# 27 A:

No.

# 28 Q:

Have you tried to be completely fair and impartial to both sides here?

# 29 A:

I am very much trying to be impartial.

# 30 Q:

Okay.

Now, are you telling us that now, two and a half years later, you have a specific recollection of which side the bevel on the needle was when you withdrew Mr. Simpson's blood?

# 31 A:

All -- the only reason I have the -- that recollection is that the bevel -- had the calibrations been facing up to the bevel, I would have seen it. I was seeing how much blood I had drawn, I would have noticed it. But it's like this (indicating to syringe.)

# 32 Q:

My question is, two and a half years after you drew this blood, are you saying you have a specific recollection as to which side the bevel on the needle was?

# 33 A:

No, I'm not. I'm just saying that I had the bevel up. All right?

# 34 Q:

Okay.

# 35 A:

Now that's --

# 36 Q:

That's because you always do it that way?

# 37 A:

All right.

Now, if the bevel were up and the calibrations were up where the bevel was, I would have seen it.

# 38 Q:

You would have seen how much blood you drew, correct?

# 39 A:

Yes. But it wasn't that way; otherwise, I would have seen it.

# 40 Q:

And when you testified just a couple weeks later that it was 7.9 to 8.1, that was based on your looking at the calibrations, wasn't it?

# 41 A:

No. That was based on a guess, just a guess that was it.

KEY QUOTE

# 42 Q:

Do you recall in your deposition, page 67, line 13, being asked the following questions: And this was under oath, was it not?

# 43 A:

Yes.

# 44 Q:

Just a few months ago, correct?

# 45 A:

Correct.

# 46 Q:

(Reading.) "Q. Did you look at where the

bevel was when you took Mr. Simpson's

blood? "A. Yes. "Q. Where was it in relation

to the calibrations? "A. I don't know.

Were you telling the truth when you said that?

# 47 A:

I don't know.

# 48 Q:

Okay.

But that's the truth?

# 49 A:

I'm surmising that it was the other way, because otherwise, I would have seen the blood.

# 50 Q:

And the reason you said it was 7.9 to 8.1 cc's under oath, was because that's what you all think you draw; was that your testimony?

# 51 A:

That's about what everyone thinks they have drawn, and it's wrong.

And I believe I told you at the deposition I was wrong; I should not have made that statement, that's on the deposition.

# 52 Q:

Now, I think you just said to Mr. Medvene that sometimes you draw one amount and sometimes you draw a different amount?

# 53 A:

We do. The ideal amount that we think we draw is about 8 cc's.

Now, that is wrong.

And I don't think any nurse in their right mind will ever say that again, when they say see what I'm going through;

# 54 (Laughter.)

# 55 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) This was the most memorable blood you had ever drawn in your career; isn't that correct?

# 56 A:

Yes.

# 57 Q:

And when you testified at the preliminary hearing, you told the truth, didn't you?

# 58 A:

Well, I told what I thought was the truth at that time.

# 59 Q:

And that was your best recollection of the truth at that time, correct?

# 60 A:

That's right.

# 61 MR. BLASIER:

That's all I have.

# 62 MR. MEDVENE:

Just one question, Mr. Peratis.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MEDVENE:

# 63 Q:

When you say the ideal amount is whatever it is in this case, prior to drawing out the ideal amount, isn't it correct that the blood stopped coming in because the needle hit the vein?

# 64 A:

I'm surmising that's the reason. It could have been a clot, too.

# 65 Q:

Right. But the blood stopped coming?

# 66 A:

Yes.

# 67 Q:

And then you stopped taking any more blood from Mr. Simpson?

# 68 A:

Yes.

# 69 MR. MEDVENE:

Thank you. Nothing further.

# 70 MR. BLASIER:

Wait a second.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BLASIER:

# 71 Q:

Are you saying now that you remember the bevel causing the vein to collapse to the point where you couldn't get any more blood?

Do you remember that now?

# 72 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Misstates -- he didn't say the vein collapsed.

# 73 THE COURT:

Overruled.

Go ahead and inquire.

# 74 A:

The bevel, when you're pulling blood, the bevel can suck a portion of the vein into it, and it stops the blood.

# 75 Q:

Are you saying that now you have a specific recollection of that happening?

# 76 A:

I don't know if that's what caused it. I know the blood stopped. I'm surmising it was either that or a clot.

# 77 Q:

Incidentally, you weren't the one that told -- you didn't call the defense when you realized that your testimony under oath was incorrect, did you?

# 78 A:

I called the -- I called the --

# 79 Q:

The D.A.?

# 80 A:

The prosecution.

# 81 Q:

And they called us because they had to, right?

# 82 A:

I don't know if they called you.

KEY QUOTE

# 83 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 84 A:

I talked to you. You're the ones that called me.

# 85 Q:

To set up an appointment, after you told the D.A., right?

# 86 A:

Yes, I told the D.A. first.

# 87 Q:

That's all I ask.

# 88 THE COURT:

Last volley.

# 89 MR. MEDVENE:

Last question, Your Honor.

FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MEDVENE:

# 90 Q:

And your explanation that the blood stopped coming at Mr. Simpson's arm and your explanation of why you gave, under oath, to Mr. Blasier, prior to this date; isn't that true?

# 91 A:

I didn't understand the question.

# 92 Q:

You told Mr. Blasier exactly what you told this jury about the blood stopping when you were drawing it from Mr. Simpson, in the middle of your drawing it; isn't that true?

# 93 A:

Yes.

# 94 MR. MEDVENE:

Thank you. Nothing further.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BLASIER:

# 95 Q:

When you were testifying in your deposition, you were surmising?

# 96 A:

Pardon?

# 97 Q:

When you were testifying in your deposition you were just surmising?

# 98 MR. MEDVENE:

Surmising what? Vague, ambiguous.

# 99 MR. BLASIER:

That the blood stopped.

# 100 A:

Surmising.

# 101 MR. BLASIER:

Nothing further.

# 102 THE COURT:

Okay, you're excused.

# 103 MR. PETROCELLI:

You're excused,

# 104 MR. PETROCELLI:

You're excused. Thank you.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Peratis

That was based on a guess, just a guess that was it.

Admits his sworn preliminary hearing figure of 7.9–8.1 cc's drawn was not based on observation — devastating to the prosecution given the discrepancy between that figure and the smaller amount logged into evidence, which the defense used to argue blood was planted.

Peratis

I don't know if they called you... I talked to you. You're the ones that called me.

Confirms he notified the prosecution first when he realized his testimony was wrong; the defense was only contacted after, implying the prosecution controlled the disclosure.

Peratis

I don't know.

Response when asked if he was telling the truth when he said in deposition he didn't know where the bevel was — evasive and damaging to credibility.

Peratis

And I don't think any nurse in their right mind will ever say that again, when they say see what I'm going through.

Self-aware aside acknowledging the damage done by his earlier specific estimate, prompting courtroom laughter.

Evidence (3)

Informal

10 cc syringe used to draw OJ Simpson's blood

discussed — bevel orientation and calibration visibility debated

Informal

Peratis deposition, page 67 line 13

read into record by Blasier to impeach — Peratis said under oath he did not know where the bevel was

Informal

Preliminary hearing testimony (blood volume estimate of 7.9–8.1 cc's)

challenged — Peratis concedes the figure was a guess, not an observation

Notable Exchanges (3)

Blasier•Peratis

Blasier reads Peratis's own deposition back to him — where Peratis said under oath he did not know where the bevel was — then asks if he was telling the truth. Peratis answers 'I don't know,' undercutting his current claim that he remembers the bevel was up.

revealing

Blasier•Peratis

Blasier establishes that Peratis called the DA when he discovered his testimony was wrong, not the defense, and that the defense only reached Peratis after the prosecution contacted them.

strategic

Medvene•Fujisaki•Leonard

Brief procedural skirmish at the start where Medvene objects to redirect as improper and Leonard moves to strike; Fujisaki denies and tells Blasier to proceed.

procedural

Light Moments (1)

Peratis

Courtroom laughter after Peratis says no nurse in their right mind would ever again claim to know exactly how much blood they drew, given what he is going through.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Peratis

prior inconsistent statement

Blasier reads Peratis's deposition testimony — given under oath a few months prior — in which Peratis said he did not know where the bevel was, directly contradicting his current testimony that the bevel was up.

⚔ Peratis

prior inconsistent statement

Blasier establishes that the 7.9–8.1 cc figure Peratis gave at the preliminary hearing under oath was not based on actually reading the calibrations, but was 'just a guess,' undermining the reliability of all his specific recollections.

Witness Demeanor

(Laughter.)

Witness gives evasive and contradictory answers — 'I don't know' and 'I'm surmising' repeated multiple times

Witness appears confused or reluctant on question of who he contacted: starts to answer, then is led by Blasier's prompts

Objections

6 objections (0 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 8578 • 104 utterances • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103