ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, having been previously sworn was examined and testified further as follows:
Other than your attorneys, have you spoken with anyone concerning your deposition here today?
Okay. I want to just go back to where we ended on Friday. We were talking about you coming to Rockingham and being advised by either Detective Phillips or some other detective regarding blood that was found at the Rockingham premises. Do you remember that testimony?
Okay. Was it your understanding that Rockingham, when you got there, that Rockingham was declared a crime scene?
When you got back to Rockingham from Chicago. did you see any yellow tape anywhere on your property?
I got out of the car, I started walking towards my front door, and a police officer said he couldn't let me go in, and, "Mr. Simpson, I've been told I need to handcuff you," or words to that effect.
Okay. Now, you got out of the car and you were walking towards your front door. Did you have your grip with you at the time?
In the car we were--Yes. Yes, there was-- I assumed everybody else was getting out with me because they wouldn't let us drive on, and they were getting out with luggage, and I just was trying to get in the house, so...
Okay. The only luggage that you had on your person. though, was the grip that you were carrying. Is that correct?
At the time that you arrived at Rockingham, were you aware of any information that the police had which had a tendency to implicate your involvement in these crimes?
I don't recall. He just said he was following orders. I'm--I shouldn't be saying this because I don't really recall the conversation the officer and I had at that point. All I know is I was kind of bewildered.
Okay. Do you recall saying anything else to the police officer after you were handcuffed other than, "What's going on?"
I knew I wanted to talk to somebody because he wasn't in charge, and I guess they--I--once again I'm real sketchy here, but I'm assuming that he--
I can't assume. I know I wanted to find out -- needed to talk to somebody that was in charge.
Well, in terms of you being handcuffed, that had certain implications in your mind, didn't it?
My mind was where my kids was and what had happened. That was probably the prevalent thing that was on my mind. You know, I thought this was just--I didn't know what this was. I just wanted to talk to someone in charge.
Okay. And you felt, as the ex-husband of Nicole Brown Simpson, that you had a right to obtain information relative to her death. Is that correct?
I don't think--I don't know--I don't think any of those thoughts went into my head like you're saying. All I know is that Nicole had been murdered, from what I understood; my kids were somewhere; my daughter, oldest daughter, was in a bad way; I had no idea how my other son was; police were at my house, and I was --other than that, I can't tell you what process my mind was going through.
Okay. So you were really focused on your family and your kids and just the loss of Nicole again at the Rockingham--
I don't know what I was focusing on. I just wanted to know what was going on. And focus may have been what I wasn't, was focused.
Well, the last thing on your mind was the fact that you were going to be handcuffed and arrested when you got back. Right?
I think my lawyers had gotten to me by then. and they went to find who would take them off or something, and they were removed.
I don't think so. I think after they handcuffed me, I went and stood by a doll house, and then things started happening. People were coming and going, and I was trying to, you know--I knew Skip was supposed to be there. I knew--Skip was there with me, and I was just, you know--I don't know. I was just--you know, whatever was happening, was happening.
I asked the guy, why is he handcuffing me. He said he was just doing what he was ordered. And I said, "Well, find who's in charge," and evidently somebody went off to find who was in charge. By the time that person came up my lawyer was there, and they took the handcuffs off of me.
Okay. After you made that request, did someone come over to you and talk to you who you believed to be in charge at that point?
At some point, and I can't tell you when, Vannatter showed up and, consequently, took my handcuffs off.
Approximately how long were you at the Rockingham premises before you were transported downtown to give a statement?
Okay. Do you remember anything else you did other than stand by the doll house being handcuffed before you were transported downtown?
Do you remember talking to Detective Vannatter at all relative to the facts and circumstances concerning Nicole's death?
Yeah, all of this is while you were still at Rockingham before you were transported down to the Los Angeles Police Department.
I remember Vannatter, and I don't --I can't really recall what the conversation was about. I knew it was about the handcuffs and about taking to the police or an interview or something, but my lawyers were there doing most of the talking at that time.
I believe so. They kinda moved around. They were there. They moved. I believe at some points in times I was.
Was it your understanding there was some discussion relative to you going down to the police station and giving a statement?
Do you recall any discussion between you and Detective Vannatter concerning blood that was found at Rockingham?
Vannatter, not really. He may have said something to my lawyer about stuff there, but I can't recall. I don't really recall.
Do you recall overhearing some discussion between Vannatter and your lawyers concerning blood found at Rockingham?
I just knew--I don't--I can't recall. I know one guy said something to me, and then they were talking about something, and it was my impression when I was going downtown that blood or something was found around my property. That was my impression. Exactly how I got that impression was just whatever was going on that-- during that period of time.
When you say some guy mentioned something to me," you're referring now to the Phillips or the other detectives --
Did that statement also include or imply the notion that blood was found inside your Bronco?
I don't know. I have absolutely no idea. They were just saying something was there, and I wanted the handcuffs off, and they wanted to talk.
Okay. So would it be fair to say that at the time that you left Rockingham to go down to the Los Angeles Police Department to give a statement, that the only areas where you had any information relative to the location of blood was on the driveway at Rockingham?
I don't know if they were white. They were markers, though, and outside of that and what this guy said to me and whatever was being said at the time, I--that wasn't my focus.
Okay. Well, you understood the white card--the white markers that you observed were identifying blood or some type of evidence in the driveway, didn't you?
Okay. I mean, you've seen white markers used like that in television and news reports in the past, haven't you?
Mr. Simpson, as you were still at Rockingham and became aware that blood was found on your property, did you begin to make some association in your mind between the cut that you had--or the blood that you had observed the previous evening on the 1h and the blood that was found at Rockingham on the driveway?
Didn't even cross your mind that possibly that was blood that you left the previous evening, on the 1h?
Nothing about the blood crossed my mind at all. I was thinking about my kids and what might have happened to Nicole.
And by the way, at the time that you were at Rockingham thinking about what might have happened with Nicole, you understood that this was -- she was probably murdered. Right?
Okay. And at that time you didn't know whether the means of committing the murder were a gun, a knife, strangulation, anything of that nature, did you?
: Now, when you went from Rockingham down to the police department, you went there specifically give a statement to the police. Is that correct?
To do whatever they wanted me to do to -- so that I could, you know, go and see my kids and find out what's going on.
Well, did you think you were going down there to give--to make some kind of identification of Nicole's body?
Okay. I mean, you understood they wanted to talk to you because you were possibly a suspect, didn't you, Mr. Simpson?
Okay. And then as you were driving down to the police department, you were beginning to think about the events of the previous evening because you knew you were going to be asked about those events. Right?
Well, did you think about what you had done the previous evening as you were driving down to the police department?
Did you begin to make an association in the car between the blood that was purported being found at Rockingham and the blood you noticed on your finger the previous evening?
Did you begin to think about any of your activities in the last 24 hours as you were in the car headed down to the police department?
What were the--what was the focus of your thoughts, if any, as you were en route to the police department to give a statement in connection with these murder?
Well, he didn't ever say that he knew he was going to give a statement. He knew they were going to talk to him.
What was your thought process, if any, as you were headed down to the police department to talk to the police in connection with these murders?
Where they were. I probably thought if--you know, like my other kids, my younger kids, if they were all right, and I was just trying to, you know--I don't know if I digested that Nicole was dead. It was just kind of a hard thing to digest.
When you say your kids, not knowing whether they were taken care of, had you made arrangements to take care of your children before you are en route back from Chicago?
I think when I talked to my daughter, they were going to go get them and take them to Laguna. Uh--
That, but my daughter was in sort of a bad way, my older daughter was in sort of a bad way, so I was a little concerned about her, too. Not a little. Just as much as concerned about her. I was pretty concerned about my older daughter, because when I spoke to her, she was in a bad way.
I think they said they were going to get them. I said, "Go get them immediately," and it may have been mentioned that they were going to take them to Laguna. I'm not really sure if that was mentioned in that particular conversation.
And I take it you had great confidence in the Browns' ability to care for your children at that time?
So you knew that if they were successfully transported to the Browns they would be well taken care of by family members?
Yeah, they aren't my family, but my -- their family was a lot closer than my family, so yes, was confident in that.
And after you had asked Arnelle to make arrangements to transport the kids down to Laguna, did you ever obtain any confirmation that in fact they had arrived in Laguna?
I don't know about arrived, but I knew that they had gone. A.C had taken them and evidently had gotten them there.
You have no memory whatsoever with respect to when you learned
that A.C had transported the kids down to Laguna?
No, but I knew as the day went on that he had, and I don't know if Skip Taft or Cathy Randa or somebody else had communicated that to me.
Okay. So I take it that once you learned that A.C had transported the kids to Laguna, you were satisfied that the kids for the time being were taken care of.
Yeah, the minute A.C or Arnelle had gotten them, I would have assumed they were in good hands.
And did you learn that information before you left to go down to the police department to talk to the police?
Now, when you got down to the police department, you agreed to talk to Detectives Vannatter and Lange--is that correct?--without the presence of your lawyer.
And, Mr. Simpson, you knew that in talking to them, they were going to question you relative to the murder of your wife and another man. Is that correct?
And I take it this is the first time in your life that anyone had ever questioned you in connection with a murder. Is that correct?
And you understood. sir the seriousness of the conversation or the statement that you were going to have with the detectives. Right?
You understood the implication of Detective Vannatter reading you those rights, didn't you?
Well, what do you mean by "the implication"? I don't understand "the implication."
Well, that anything that you said to Detective Vannatter or Lange or anyone else could be used against you. You understood that. Right?
And then when you got down to the Los Angeles Police Department, they read you your constitutional rights again. Is that true?
Okay. And you didn't have any questions with respect to what it meant when they read those rights to you. Right?
Well, at one point they started reading the rights, and I said something to them, and they stopped the tape and then they started over again. They explained something to me, and then they started over again.
Well, on the tape.that we have a transcript of, you were read your constitutional rights. Is that true?
Okay. And at the end of reading you your rights, they asked you whether you understood those rights. Correct?
And in fact you understood, Mr. Simpson, that anything you said during the course of that statement could and would be used against you if you were tried in this case. You understood that.
And you understood that it was very important, in connection with giving the statement, to be honest and truthful about the questions and answers that you gave. Is that correct?
And you also understood that it was important to be accurate about the information that you provided to these detectives during the course of their examination. Is that true?
Yeah, we talked about that, and I said, "I'll be as accurate as I can." I was a little tired at the time.
Okay. And they had asked you questions, as you testified earlier, off the tape and then on the tape, and then I think they turned it off again. Is that true?
That's correct.
0: It didn't matter to you whether it was being tape-recorded or it wasn't being tape-recorded; you were going to be honest in your answers. Is that true?
I wanted to be honest and as accurate as I could be, and it didn't matter to me if it was taped or not.
Irrespective of whether that tape was running, you were going to be as accurate as possible?
As I could be. I was tired, and I was a bit concerned that both sides had at the time, and, yes, I was going to be as accurate as I could be.
Well, did you ever tell the detectives that you were concerned about your ability to provide an accurate statement because you were tired?
They said it to me, and I said I'll try the best I could, because they were very -- they really wanted to talk and I really wanted to get out of there -- and as I said before, that's why they stopped the tape the first time and Vannatter said, Hey, OJ., we're just trying to get you to go home, so, you know, do the best you can." I said, I'll do the best I can. So -- but, you know, they stopped it because they said something about having a lawyer present.
Was there anything that you were aware of at the time that you provided the statement which caused you to have an inability to recollect significant events from the night before?
I was tired, so--and I was in, I gather, shock, but I thought I'd do the best job I can do, and that's what I attempted to do, yes.
Okay. So other than the fact you were tired and perhaps somewhat in shock from losing your ex-wife, you can't think of any other reasons why you wouldn't be able to recall significant details from the preceding 24 hours. Is that a fair statement?
So you didn't know whether those murders occurred at 8:00 o'clock, 9:00 o'clock, l0:00 o'clock, 11:00 o'clock, 12:00 o'clock. You had no idea.
Well, I knew they couldn't have occurred a little before 9:00 o'clock, so I knew it couldn't have occurred before then.
Okay. So as far as you knew, you could have been at Rockingham, in the limousine on the way to the airport, in the air on the way to Chicago or in fact in Chicago at the time of the murders based upon what you knew at the time you gave this statement. Is that a fair statement?
Okay. And also when you gave this statement, Mr. Simpson, you had no information that blood from the murder was left at the Bundy crime scene. True?
And you had no information, Mr. Simpson, with respect to how Nicole and Mr. Goldman were in fact murdered when you gave this statement to the police. Is that true?
The only information that you had relative to any evidence was a statement from either Detective Phillips or some other detective that blood had been found at Rockingham. True?
Yes. He says, you know, There's blood there. There's blood here. We got a problem, was the way he worded it. "Well, we got sort of a problem," was the way he worded it.
Prior to actually sitting down and talking with Detectives Vannatter and Lange, did you ever draw any association in your mind between the blood that was reportedly found at Rockingham and the blood that you had noticed on your pinkie the preceding evening?
Okay. Now, Mr. Simpson, one of the areas that you were questioned about during the course of this talk or statement that you gave to the police was a cut that was on your left joint of your middle finger. Is that correct?
And the reason why that topic came up was because Detective Vannatter or Lange or both had observed that you had a cut on the left joint, the joint of your left middle finger. True?
Okay. You knew that they found blood at Rockingham because you were told earlier by Detective Phillips or some other detective at the time that they identified this bandage on your finger. Right?
"The guy...said Are we talking about the blood that you were told about or the bandage on your finger?
Let me just reask it. I want to make sure we're clear, on the same wavelength. Someone identified or pointed out that you had a bandage on your middle finger. Right?
Well, it was not in the--it's not in the thing, but, yes, it was in the context of just talking to the police.
Okay. And you knew at the time that you were having this discussion about a wound to your left middle finger that blood had been found at Rockingham. You knew that?
And at the time that they asked you about the cut on your finger, they had asked you how you did it. Right?
And I take it that you knew the implication of that question at the time you were being asked about it?
Okay. And the question about how you cut your finger was asked of you in the context of discussing blood that was found at Rockingham, wasn't it?
I don't believe so. I think they just asked me a question, and I answered it. I don't -- you know, if you let me read the thing, I can tell you if it was in the context.
All right. Let's go off the record.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is
approximately 9:42.
Okay. Mr. Simpson, we made copies, and we are going to mark as next in order 101, I believe, the statement that you gave to the police department, and that statement is dated 6-13-94. The time of the interview is noted to be military time 1335 hours.
I don't want to know when you talked about it with your lawyers. I want to know when is the last time you reviewed the statement.
Now, we're talking about the question that you were asked relative to the cut on your hand, your finger, during the course of this statement. And by the way, Mr. Simpson, when you were giving this statement to the Los Angeles Police Department, you understood or believed that you were the number one target in connection with this murder investigation. Isn't that true?
Okay. Let's turn to page 31 on your statement, Mr. Simpson. Look on lines 15 through 18. Reading from line 15, You understand the reason we're talking to you because you're the ex-husband." Suspect: I know, I'm the...number one target." Did you say that, Mr. Simpson?
Yes. I always figured that husbands or ex-husbands are, but I didn't have that thought process going at this time when they were interviewing me earlier until he told me why he was talking to me.
When you told the detectives during the course of an interview in connection with these two murder investigations that you were the number one target, were you accurately reporting your state of mind?
I don't think so. I think just from reading books and everything, a husband is somebody who's always a target. I didn't know if they had someone else they were talking to. I didn't know if I was the number one target in this case. I just know in all cases normally that is the case, that they talk to the husbands or boyfriends.
Okay. So just from your life experience, you know that in cases where there is a wife or ex-wife killed, that the ex-husband is always a target of a murder investigation. Is that true?
Well irrespective of whether they had other people they were talking to, based upon what you just told us, you understood that you were a target in connection with this murder investigation?
In addition to wanting to talk to you, you knew that there was blood that they found in Rockingham?
Okay. Now going to page l5, Mr. Simpson, starting at Line 8, they asked you, Okay. How did you get the injury on your hand?" Right?
And moving down to line 17 -- actually 16, they say, "Is that how you cut it?" And you answer, "Mmnh, it was cut before, but I think I just opened it up again. Do you see that statement, Mr. Simpson?
Let me read all of it so we're clear: I don't--I'm not sure. I'm not sure, I didn't feel it. Did I read all of it?
And, Mr. Simpson, during the course of talking to these detectives in connection with this murder investigation where you were asked about the origin of a cut to your left finger, you told them that it was cut before. True?
I told them I wasn't sure, and that's what I believe that this statement said. I saw some blood the night before, and since I didn't feel anything or see where it was coming from, I gather the next day when they started asking me questions I assumed it may have been from the same place, but I didn't see a cut or I didn't see where the blood was coming from, but I assumed I was cut.
Okay. Well you've testified already that the blood that you saw was on your pinkie. Correct?
Well, that's relatively near. I guess if it's on your pinkie, so that near your middle finger, yes.
Okay. And that's the closest that you observed blood on your hand, was on your pinkie, relative to your left middle finger. Is that true?
So in the context of talking about the origin of this cut during this murder investigation, you started guessing about the origin?
No. I told them I cut it in Chicago but it may have been cut the night before because I saw blood, and there was no other cuts on my hand at the time, so I assumed that it may have come from the same area.
Mr. Simpson, did you cut your finger on June l2, l994, the left middle finger at the joint?
When you say, "Not that I know of," are you still uncertain as you sit here today whether you cut the left middle finger at the joint area on June 12, 1994?
When you say, "not that I know of, are you able to definitively rule it out one way or the other?
I didn't see any cuts, but I saw blood, a drop of blood on my counter and a drop of blood on one of my fingers. I didn't know where it came from. So not that I know of.
When you were talking with these detectives, did you assume that the cut that you had received--Strike that. When you were talking with these detectives in connection with this murder investigation, did you assume that the blood that you observed on your pinkie was also blood that you had dripped all over the driveway at Rockingham?
I didn't--You know, it was hard to assume anything. I didn't--I don't think l was assuming anything. They were asking questions. Some questions I had no answers and I didn't know the answers to, so--and I was just trying to answer them as best I could under the circumstances.
Okay. And you knew at the time that you were being asked these questions, it was in connection with a murder investigation. Right?
-- I recall bleeding at my house." This is when they have asked -- Let me read 22 so we have a context: That's okay. Do you--do you recall bleeding at all.. .in your truck, in the Bronco? And your answer: I recall bleeding at my house, and then...I went to the Bronco. The last thing I did before I left, when I was rushing, I went and got my phone out of the Bronco." And they, mmnh-mmnh, which is the detectives. Subject: Well, whatever that is, reading through line 28. Now, the recollection that you identify on line 24, recalling that you bled at your house. is that what you've already described to us: The blood on the pinkie and the blood drop on the counter top?
Okay. When you were talking with the detectives, did you then recall bleeding on your driveway?
By the way, Mr. Simpson. the areas -- you know where they found blood--as you sit here today. You know where the found blood on your property. Is that true?
All of the areas where they found blood were areas that you were in on June 12, 1994, that you had walked past or walked over. Is that true?
And they found blood in the front entrance area right before the foyer --is that true?--where the benches are?
I went all over the place . I was upstairs; I was downstairs; I was in my living room; I was in my washroom. I was all over my house.
Now, you also mentioned, Mr. Simpson, that you were getting your phone out of your Bronco. Do you see that on line 26?
Now, you testified that you weren't in fact getting your phone: you were getting a case for your phone. Is that true?
Okay. But when you used the term "phone, you already had your phone with you, didn't you?
Okay. So what you were telling the police was inaccurate. You didn't get your phone out of there; you were getting your phone case out of there?
And when you went to the Bronco to get your phone case out of the Bronco before you were leaving, did you to your knowledge touch any of the foot pedals in the car, either the accelerator or the brake?
Okay. And do you recall the nature of touching the door, what happened that would cause you to come in contact with the door?
Just opening a door and getting in the car normally, and you kinda use your hands, the steering wheel and the door thing.
Yeah, I leaned in. I had to lean in and ended up getting it, and I ended up getting a jacket.
Okay. When you're talking about getting in the car, you are talking about leaning across the console to the passenger-side seat and grabbing your phone case?
Did you rest your hand on the seat, your left hand, at all in order to get the travel case for your phone?
No. I just kind of leaned--I don't know exactly how I did it. It was just on the back seat behind the driver (Indicating).
Okay. You are making a motion with your right hand. Do you recall reaching into the back seat with your right hand?
Okay. That would be a logical and customary way for you to grab something if you were reaching for it in your back seat?
Yeah. My glass I keep here (Indicating). It would be logical, but not necessarily. You know, I grab things with my left hand also.
How about opening up the Bronco door? Would you typically
grab the door handle with your left hand if you were going to insert a key with your right?
Okay. And the door handle on the Bronco, is it a door handle that you have to reach under with the top side of your hand facing the door and lift up the latch to open the door?
Going to page 31 of your statement, Mr. Simpson, going to line 17 and 18 where you make the statement, 'I know I'm the...number one target. And now you're telling me I got blood all over the place." Do you see that?
Okay. And, Mr. Simpson, you were responding to information that was provided to you by these detectives that reaffirmed what you already had been told: That there was blood that was found at Rockingham. Is that true?
And at that point did you begin to draw an association between the blood on your pinkie and possibly blood that was found at Rockingham that these detectives were telling you about?
The blood on my pinkie and the blood found at Rockingham, I don't think that that's what I was thinking at the time. I understood at that time why they were talking to me more so than I probably had earlier.
Well going down to line 27 and 28, it says--they ask you, Is that your blood that's dripped there?" They just flat-out ask you whether that's your blood, don't they? Right?
And then you tell them on line 28, If -- if it's dripped it's what I dripped running around trying to leave. Right?
Well, then you drew an association between the cut that you saw, the blood you saw the previous evening and the blood that they were reporting to you that they found on Rockingham. Is that right?
Well, I knew I saw a drip of blood that I assumed came from me, and if this was my blood, I would have -- probably was making an assumption that that's what it would have come from.
You were making what you believed was a logical assumption, that, you know, within 24 hours, you were in the kitchen and observed blood on the counter top and blood on your pinkie, and then you're being told by these detectives that there was blood found on your driveway.
Yeah. I don't know how logical it was. It just--if that was the case, that was the case, because I didn't see any blood anywhere else, and I certainly had luggage and stuff that I was handling quite freely during that period of time.
Okay. And if you thought it was Kato's blood, would that have been something you would have suggested to them?
I didn't have any basis to believe it was mine or anybody's blood, for that the matter. I didn't know. I was just trying to answer their questions when they asked me questions and be as helpful as I could under the circumstances.
So when you acknowledged to them that "if it's dripped it's what I dripped running around trying to leave," that you had no basis in your mind to tell them that statement?
Well, that's your interpretation of what he said.
That isn't what I think what he said and that question is argumentative, and he is not going to answer that one.
Okay. So when you told the investigating officer that "if it's dripped it's what I dripped running around trying to leave, n your testimony today is that in your mind you had no basis--no factual basis to provide that statement. Is that what you're saying?
At no time did you ever draw an association between the blood on your pinkie and blood that was found at Rockingham the following day?
You already asked him that. He's already told you he had an association, and that was--
Mr. Baker, he has not said that. He had said he has no factual basis to provide the statement. That's why I'm going into it. He said it twice.
No. Well, that's your interpretation. But he said when you read it to him and you talked about the pinkie. You've already been over that.
Well, you knew that you cut your finger. You're the only one who knew that the night before. Right, Mr. Simpson?
I didn't know what any of these people knew. I didn't have any knowledge of any of it. I just--I assumed I cut my finger because I saw a spot of blood, period. Outside of that, I didn't know anything.
Okay. And my question to you is: Given the fact that on the 12th you observed blood on your finger, did you use that as a factual basis to tell the police officers that "if it's dripped it's what I dripped running around?
Not really. I just didn't know what. They were saying that there were blood in places,and I thought I could have possibly had done it, but I didn't know because other than that one drop of blood and what was on my finger, I didn't see anything. You know, I didn't see anything. And at that time I didn't make--I wasn't making any assumptions one way or another. I was just trying to be as honest as I could with the police officers.
Were you being honest with them when you told them that if it's your blood, it was the blood you dripped running around?
When you say you "didn't see anything, are you talking about you didn't see anything on the driveway?
I didn't see anything other than a drip of blood on the--on a counter and on my finger. I didn't see any blood anywhere at any time that evening.
Okay. And when you say that you didn't see anything," the blood on the driveway--you didn't see blood on the driveway at all that evening. Right?
As you sit here today Mr. Simpson, do you believe you reopened a cut on the left middle finger?
Mr. Simpson, as you sit here today, do you believe that when you cut your finger in Chicago, you reopened a cut that already existed on your left middle finger at the joint?
I believe Huizenga was doing some things, and I don't know exactly what he did. You know, I was kind of in a little bit of space then. I saw a lot of--seemed to me I saw a lot of doctors that was dicking around with me that week. So I don't recall if anybody give me a shot or not.
I think I said I believe I did. I didn't think I did. I didn't know for sure. I don't really know. I believe it might have happened that week.
When you say, "I believe that might have happened," do you have a recollection of somebody putting a needle in your arm and injecting you with what you believed to be a tetanus shot?
I believe needles going into my arm --I have a recollection on that week of numerous needles going into my arm, but I was sort of in space a lot that week, so I don't recall exactly what they were doing.
Well, do you remember whether they were injecting you with something or pulling something out of you; for example, blood?
I knew they pulled some blood out. I don't even recall if Peratis gave me a shot or not, other than I knew he went in a few times with needles, so--and I don't--I really don't recall exactly what he did.
Stuck a needle in my arm. A few times. Because I think they screwed up the first time he was doing it.
I don't know. He did it, and then he--I was talking to Vannatter, I believe, whatever opposite side the guy was doing it on.Then he said he screwed up, and he talked to Vannatter a little bit, and then he did it again, but I wasn't looking.
Okay. Well, when you say, he did it again," do you recall where he pulled blood or withdrew blood from you?
Yeah, it was something--something--I don't know. Something was not right. I wouldn't look, so I don't know exactly what it was. And Vannatter was asking me questions, I believe, during this time.
Do you have a specific recollection of him pulling--withdrawing blood from you on this first occasion?
I didn't look. So I knew he took the needle--he put the needle in did something; then took the needle out. Then he put the needle in again, and I remember I was complaining about having to do it again.
And do you recall at any point looking and observing that blood was being withdrawn from your arm?
Which arm was your--When you say you're "squeamish about that, just the sight of blood or blood being pulled from your arm?
Yeah. Not necessarily the sight of blood, but to an extent, yes, I'm a little squeamish about blood. But, hey, I played football, so you see it.
Okay. I just want to make sure I understand what you--when you say you're squeamish, you're squeamish about the sight of blood?
Well, I don't know. I just--I don't -- I never look when they take blood out of my arm, and there are some other things women will tell you about me.
Okay. But when you see that you have a cut that's bleeding, does that cause you to become squeamish?
I don't know if the presence. The presence of blood coming from me or on me is a little discomforting, yes. And needles, I hate.
Let me put it this way: I have never, ever in my whole life watched anybody take blood out of my body, and I've had it done many times. So whatever that is, I'm squeamish about that.
Okay. When I say, "does it bother you," you used the term "squeamish. Do you become squeamish when you see blood actually on your body?
And does that cause you to do anything in particular: Clean it up quickly, you know, dress it. Or do anything of that nature?
Okay. So the way in which you respond to blood on your body is to dress it and clean it as quickly as possible because you're squeamish?
No. Not to look at it, basically, or if it's a trainer around, have the trainer do it and not look at it--not view it. I just don't like looking at blood. If it's coming from me, I don't like looking at it.
So if you are at home and you see blood on your person, is there anything you do because of the fact that you are squeamish when you look at blood?
When you say that you do--you do the same thing I do, are you assuming that there is some reasonable response that typically people have when they're cut or wounded--
And you would fall in line with what reasonable people would ordinarily do, as far as you know, in terms of addressing a wound?
At any time during the course of giving a statement to Detectives Vannatter and Lange, did you ever knowingly tell them anything that was false?
Knowingly? No, I was -- they knew and I knew, because we stopped once or twice and they asked me if I was tired and could I go on, that I was tired. So I knew at certain points I was tired and maybe not as sharp as I--as they would want me to be or if--I would have wanted to be.
Okay. Mr. Simpson, that's not my question. At any time during the course of providing information to Detectives Vannatter and Lange, did you ever knowingly provide them any information that's false?
Well, don't answer that. I don't know how you could unknowingly provide information that was false.
Well by-- have you ever gone back and seen information in there that you now believe to be false?
Okay. Well, we will talk about confused. Let's talk about false information. Is there anything in there that you have observed since giving the statement that you believe to be false?
For instance, I went out to the car to get the--all the stuff that goes with my cell phone. I said a phone. At one point I was under the impression that I went and got my daughter's flowers after the recital when it was obviously during the recital, and I think I caught that one at the time.
Some of the things that happened right when I got back from the recital, because they almost were duplicate to what I had done the night before, a few of the things kinda ran together, and I may have said some things that weren't accurate at that particular time, at 7:00--7:00 to 7:30.
I wasn't aware of it, no. I was--I think I was a little out of it. I had things on my mind, obviously.
No. Because I wanted to get out of there and get to my family and find out what had happened.
Do you recall any information that you provided in this statement being inaccurate as it relates to Paula Barbieri?
Okay. You indicated to the detectives during the course of providing this statement that you called her as you were driving to her house. Do you recall that?
Well, the statement that you provided to the police officers was that you called Miss Barbieri as you were driving to her house after the recital. Is that true?
You can review any part of it. Your lawyer wants you to review it, and he'll tell you what he wants you to review.
Now, Mr. Simpson, the first time that you ever provided any testimony under oath relative to the events of June 12th, 1994 was during the course of this deposition. Is that true?
Okay. And would it be fair to say, Mr. Simpson, that your memory relative to the events of June 12th was better within 24 hours of those events, of describing those events, than it was during 1996?
Okay. You think your memory is better now, almost two years later, than it was the following day in terms of describing the events of June 12th, 1994?
I think my memory was better, after I got some sleep, even the next day than it was when they were interviewing me.
Okay. So you had some problems with your memory during the course of giving information to these detectives while they were interviewing you regarding this murder investigation?
As you can see here, what you told me to read, I was trying to--and I had pointed out here, well, I'm trying to think. I did. I was even having problems because I was tired. I was having problems recalling when I bought the flowers for the recital, even though it became obvious that I had to have bought those flowers during the recital, even though at the time they were interviewing me, because of the state I was in, I was thinking that maybe I bought the flowers after the recital, but I think we all know now those flowers were bought during the recital. But I was tired; I believe I was in somewhat shock, so things were running together, and I was having trouble putting all of these things together.
You said, "As you can see here." Are you talking about kind of the stammering way in which you provided the statement, at least between lines 15 and 20?
Yes. It was, am I--I'm trying to think, did I leave? This is during the recital, and we know I did leave, but at that time I was having trouble recalling that, but if you read the statement, you can see that I was having some problems at that time.
And you think it's obvious, just in looking at the statement, that you were having problems recalling that specific information. Is that true?
I think it's obvious in light of the fact we knew I bought flowers during the recital and not after the recital.
Well, I was in shock. My wife -- my ex-wife had been murdered; my kids were wherever they were; last time I spoke to my daughter, she was in a bad way, and I hadn't slept.
Now, the first call you made to Paula Barbieri after the recital, just answering that question, was at 10:03. Is that true?
The first call that you made on your cell phone after the recital was at 10:03. Is that true?
And your testimony during this deposition was that you had begun walking out to your car, and before you even reached your car you decided that you were not going to drive down to Paula Barbieri's. Is that true?
When you say, lines 18, 19, 20, Then -- then I came home, and then I called Paula as I was going to her house and Paula wasn't home," that's inaccurate?
Well, it depends how you interpret it. At the time I was running two days together, but I did call her as I was going to her house. I tried her on my phone at home. I gather there was -- her machine was on. And at that point if she wasn't home, I didn't -- I couldn't--I didn't know where to go find Paula. I've never found Paula anywhere except at her house, so I decided not to go.
Well if taken literally and you called her after the recital on your cell phone as you were going to her house, that would have been at 10:03. True?
Well the first call you made to her on your cell phone after the recital was at 10:03. Is that true?
Well, as I told you, I was putting a few things together, a few nights were running together, Saturday night, Sunday night was running together, and if you look at my cell phone records, you will see at roughly this time on Saturday, as I was going to Paula's house, I called her.
So there were -- I hadn't slept, and last night was whatever night it was to me, and the nights were running together to me at this time.
Okay. So as you were providing this information to the detectives in connection with this murder investigation, did you begin to think that all the information was running together and it may be inaccurate?
No. I was very tired, and they were concerned about me being
tired because they mentioned it a few times to me.
Excuse me. Did you ever tell them that you wanted to stop giving this statement in connection with the murder investigation because you were so tired that you thought you were beginning to provide inaccurate information?
And you never once asked them to stop to rest or ever indicate to them that you were tired. Is that true, sir?
I think the way I was answering questions indicated to them, because at one point they asked me could I go on, and I said, "Yes, let's just get this over with."
At any time after you got home from the recital, did you ever get into your Bronco and drive towards the house of Paula Barbieri?
By the way, Mr. Simpson, at the time that you were giving this statement, you didn't have your cell phone records in front of you, did you?
And you didn't know -- Strike that. Did you pay your cell phone records yourself, or did Cathy Randa pay those?
Okay. So in other words, on your phone bills for your cellular phone, they go to your office, and then they're paid by your office staff or administrator?
Now, I take it, Mr. Simpson, that when you reviewed this statement for the first time, you had had an opportunity to rest.
And you were of -- your state of mind was a little bit clearer when you had a chance to review the actual transcript of what you said.
Well, you had given a statement to the police in connection with a murder investigation, and this was your first opportunity to look at what you said. Right?
No. Because they had me on drugs, and the whole experience
was --I hadn't really been able to deal with it yet.
Okay. Well, you've read the statement that you gave to the Los Angeles Police Department detectives on a number of different occasions, haven't you?
Okay. And at any time after you reviewed the statement, did you ever contact the Los Angeles Police Department either directly or through any agent and indicate to them that any of the information in this statement was inaccurate?
Did you or anyone under your direction ever contact the Los Angeles Police Department and indicate to them that this statement was inaccurate?
Did you ever contact the Los Angeles Police Department or direct anyone on your behalf to contact the Los Angeles Police Department to change the statement?
Okay. Did you ever ask anyone who was a non-lawyer to contact the police department on your behalf?
Did you ever file a supplemental report or ask to have filed a supplemental report with the Los Angeles Police Department?
Yeah.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:27.
Okay. Mr. Simpson, you have the statement in front of you. I want you to go to page 12, and specifically lines 25 and 28. We are going to go through that, and page 13, lines through 18, but let's just go through it piece by piece.
So I am just letting you know I am going to go through page 12 and 13, but 12 starting at lines 25 through 28. Okay? And this is in reference to Paula, and the questions you were asked at the time you gave this statement in connection with this murder investigation was: What time was the recital? Your answer: Over at about 6:30. Like I said, I came home, I got in my car, I was going to see my girlfriend, I was calling her and she wasn't around."
Now, is this inaccurate because you were running the 11th and the 12th together in your mind?
Turn the page, and it says, page 13 at the top: "So you drove the--" You say Bronco. You got home in the Rolls in the Rolls --" Subject: ''Yeah." Question: --and then you got in the Bronco? Subject: Bronco 'cause my phone was in the Bronco." Did I read that correctly?
Now, on the 11th when you saw Miss Barbieri, you went out to a function with her for the Prime Minister of Israel. Is that correct?
In the statement that you're talking -- in which you're talking to the detectives, you made specific reference to the Bronco. Right?
Now that--it's a statement that you made to the detectives in connection with the murder investigation that you now say is inaccurate.
I was going to go there on the 12th. I got probably halfway and decided not to go.
Okay. So the answer to my question is that you did not make a trip -- you didn't actually get in the car and drive to Paula's on the 12th. Is that true?
I got in the car with the intentions to drive to Paula on the 12th, and about halfway there she hadn't answered, and I turned around and went home--called Nicole, actually, and then tried her again and went home.
I was driving down Sunset. I was going to Paula's and spend a few -- a little time with her.
Okay. And then because you couldn't get through, you decided not to continue your trip to her house?
Sort of. I didn't turn right around. I went down Barrington because if Justin was home, I would have -- Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Well, when you say that -- you just made a statement that "if Justin was home." Did you then head by Nicole 's?
Well, let's be clear on this, Mr. Simpson. Were you heading to Paula's when you made this call, or were you heading to Nicole's when you made this call?
Well did you turn around and were you headed home when you made this phone call to Paula after you had spoken--after you had called Nicole?
Okay. What I am trying to figure out here is: Are you calling Paula as you're driving to her house and then at some point, because she is not there, you decide to turn around and not go there? Is that what's going on?
And then when you turned around or decided not to go there, did you then place another phone call to her home?
Not the first time. I think I did the last time, told her I was off the golf course, I believe, and I was heading to the house.
Okay. And it was at the second-- Strike that. The second phone call that you made was after you had already decided not to continue on to her house. Is that it?
If she would have answered, I would have gone to her house, but she didn't, so I continued home.
If she was home, I would have gone to her house, but she wasn't home. so I continued to go home to my house.
Okay. And is it this conversation -- Strike that. Is it at this time that you had a conversation with Nicole about tickets?
You had stated during Mr. Petrocelli's examination that the last time that you had--you were asked the last time you had an argument with Nicole. Do you remember that testimony?
And you had mentioned in connection with that answer, although you didn't finish the answer according to my recollection, you had mentioned something about tickets. Do you remember that?
Going to page 13 and now focusing on line 11, you make the statement in response to the discussion of the Bronco, "You know, I drive -- rather drive it than the [sic] other car." Do you see that?
It was an easier car to drive, and I enjoyed driving it. Even though I didn't drive it a lot other than going to golf, I liked driving it.
Then going on with line 13, it says, "And I-- you know, and, uh -- and, uh, as I was going over there I called her a couple times and she wasn't there, and that she had left a message." Now, this is going back to page 12 where you're talking about going over there after the recital, and this never happened, did it?
Well, there was never an occasion after the recital where you were going over there, calling her a couple times. Isn't that true?
Well, let's read this, because I want to make sure that we have this in context. Okay? We'll just read this--
A But this is not in context. As I was explaining to you before, these things were running together at the time because of whatever condition I was in, trying to remember not only Saturday -- these--all of these things were running together to me, and that's why it got a little confused.
Okay. So when you say, "these things were running together" with Saturday, you're talking about the statement where you were -- " as I was going" -- and again, page 13, lines 13, 14, l 5, where you say, "as I was going over there I called her a couple times and she wasn't there, and that she had left a message ' Are you running together the 11th and the 12th in connection with--
Excuse me. I'm sorry. I think I'm running it all together, the 11 to 12, that day, that night, it's all sort of running together to me at that time.
Okay. Let's just go back to page 12. If it's out of context, you let us know how it's out of context.
That isn't a question. That's just a prelude to reading this. Okay?
On page 12, if you read along with me, Mr. Simpson, there is a question--
The question you were asked is, "What time was the recital?" And your answer is: "Over at about 6:30. Like I said, I came home, I got in my car, I was going to see my girlfriend, I was calling her and she wasn't around."
And we are now at page 13, top of the page, line 1, We will continue on: "So you drove the--"
Your answer: 'Bronco."
The detectives: "You got home in the Rolls, in the Rolls--"
Subject--Suspect: "Yeah."
"-- and then you got in the Bronco?"
And your answer: "Bronco 'cause my phone was in the Bronco."
Detectives: "Okay."
Suspect: "And, uhm--and 'cause it's the Bronco, it's the Bronco is what I drive."
Detectives: "Yeah."
Suspect: "You know, I drive -- rather drive it than any other car.
"And I -- you know, and, uh -- and, uh, as I was going over there I called her a couple times and she wasn't there," she had -- and that she had left a message. And then I checked my messages, she had left me a message that she wasn't there, that she had to leave town. And then I came back and, uh. ended up sitting with Kato.'
Question: "Okay. And about what time was it [sic] again that you parked the Bronco?"
Suspect: "8:00 something, maybe." Okay? Now, the statement that you make at Lines 13 through 18 on page 13 is in reference to a discussion where you're describing what happened after the recital. True?
And, Mr. Simpson, what you described to them with respect to what you did after the recital was that you were headed to Paula's house and you were calling her. Is that true?
And you also said that you had checked messages and that she left you a message that she wasn't there. You said that, didn't you?
She had left a message on her message machine that she was not around, or words to that effect. I can't tell you specifically what it was.
Okay. So there is a message that she had left on her message machine indicating that she wasn't there and she had to leave town?
I believe. It's just that she wasn't around. She may have said that she was out of town for a few days. I just don't recall.
Are you saying that on her message m machine there was a message that was particular to you that she was out of town and wasn't there?
So we're clear on this, you called Paula, and her message machine would come on, her voice, presumably--
Okay. Well, when you first called her on the 12th, the first time after golf, was that message on her machine?
Okay. So when her message indicated that she was out of town and wasn't there, is that something that was inconsistent with her schedule or habits?
And the reason why she would go out of town was because she would be involved in various employment endeavors that necessitated her going out of town. Is that true?
And so when you heard this message on the 12th that she was out of town and wasn't there, that was consistent with her past practices with respect to these employment endeavors. Isn't that true?
Well, I didn't know. As I said, she told me she might be leaving town. Quite often she'll leave messages that she's leaving town to avoid people, and she's still in town. So I really didn't know one way or the other.
Did you have any reason to believe that with respect to this particular message on the 12th, that she was giving -- that she was leaving that message because she wanted to avoid people?
Okay. In fact, the earlier evening you've already testified you had a wonderful evening. Right?
There was no indication that she was angry or dissatisfied with you when you left her on the 11th. True?
And after you heard her message that she indicated that she was not there and out of town, you called her again.True?
Okay. And I assume that you expected that if this was one of these occasions where she was leaving a message to avoid people and she got your message, she would call you at your home. That was your hope. Right?
And you didn't--you've already testified you didn't check your cell phone messages that day. Right?
If you received a message at your home on your answering machine, would there be any record of that?
Well, for example, if you had a local call made to your residence where someone left a message on your machine and you got that message, would there be any record of any sort relative to that effect?
And your belief that this statement that you made to the detectives in connection with this murder investigation is inaccurate is based upon your running together the 11th and the 12th?
Well, the whole day of the 12th, the 11th to 12th, and everything that was going on, this -- yeah, a lot of this is just kind of ran together, and at that point in time I was a little fuzzy about it all. I had other things on my mind.
In the following--same page on Line 23 through 26, you mention that "wee had," referencing Kato, "We had went and got a burger." You see that?
Well, specifically the reference that you and Kato "went and got a burger." You see that?
I see 23 and 24, they're talking about earlier than--we had taken an early-- "relatively -- he hadn't taken a -- "he hadn't done a jacuzzi." He hasn't gone. "We had went and got a burger and I came home and kind of leisurely got ready to go."
Okay. I take it that your state of mind was sufficient to recall that detail to the investigators in connection with this murder investigation.
Well, I want to make sure that it's inaccurate. Some things are inaccurate. Let's find what is and what isn't.
Well, I knew he took a jacuzzi. I may be a little confused here at what time he took it, but I'm--this here, it sounds like I got him--I don't know what it is here.
Well, when you say that Kato -- your reference that Kato took the jacuzzi, that was based upon your recollection of what Mr. Kaelin did on the 12th. True?
Well, there was some circumstantial evidence, in your view, that he had taken a jacuzzi then.
Yes. I told them he took a jacuzzi, but I had assumed--I didn't tell them I assumed he took jacuzzi. I told them he did, but assumed that, yes.
Okay. So in your mind you had gone through a process where you had taken what Mr. Kaelin had told you coupled with what you observed and concluded that he took a jacuzzi, and that's what you related to the investigators.
I don't recall thinking about all of that at the time. I just recall telling them he took a jacuzzi.
Okay. I take it your state of mind was such that you were able to relate to them that information.
And then you indicate that you "kind of leisurely got ready"-- Strike that. You said, "...I come home and kind of leisurely got ready to go." You see that statement?
Okay. I am going to jump back up and just ask you a couple more questions on this statement you made relative to the messages. At line l5, 16 and 17 you state, in providing information to the detectives "And then l checked my messages. . . "
"...she had left me a message that she wasn't there, that she had to leave town." Right?
That doesn't say anything about a message on her machine. You're talking about your machine, aren't you, sir?
Well, Mr. Simpson, what you were telling them in the English language is you checked your messages, aren't you?
Yeah. What I was trying to relate them was that I got the message she was out of town, even though I still wasn't quite sure if she had left town. but she had not left me a message and I had not picked up a message and I think your records will show that.
Well, I don't care what our records will show. I'm trying to figure out what you're telling--
When you say "I checked my messages" and "she had left me a message," what you were intending to tell them was that there was a message on her machine telling you that she was out of town; she wasn't there?
I don't know if that was what I was meaning to tell them at the time. I think I was just trying to tell them that I had gotten a message that she was out of town.
Well, I know it wasn't on my machine because she never called my machine, and the machine she calls, as you know, I didn't pick up any messages. So, yes, I had gotten a message she was out of town, even though I got to admit I still didn't totally believe it.
Was this information based upon your memory at the time that she would check your messages and that she had left you a message? Was that your recollection at the time?
At the time it was just based on trying to give information that -- what I thought I knew at the time. I was trying to let them know what I felt I knew at the time, and I was inaccurate. That's an inaccurate statement. I did not check my messages. I did check my machine at my home, and there was no message from Paula, and she never called my machine and left me a message at home.
And you just made a statement that one of the reasons you know that is because your phone bill. Is that true?
You just made a statement to me that if you check the phone bill, you would know that you didn't check your messages. Do you remember that statement?
Partially, yes. I was surprised that I didn't, because it seems to me that I normally will call my car phone, and I was surprised that I didn't.
Okay. When you say you're "surprised that you didn't," are you
talking about an occasion where you reviewed your phone bill relative to cell phone charges and looked at what calls you made that evening?
No. It went further back than that. It went to when Paula told me she had left a message, and since I knew I had never received a message, at that point in time I realized I must have never picked up any messages from her.
No. I think our discussion was about just everything that had happened, and somehow it came up. It wasn't a vital point at the time, which I don't think it is now, but that's my opinion, and she had said something about she was upset with me and she had left a message.
I don't know who brought it up. We were just talking about what was going on. She spent a lot of time with me while I was in jail.
Was that the first time after the murders that you ever had a discussion with Paula relative to messages that either she left you or you left her?
That was the first time in jail I had a discussion with Paula that I was aware that she was pissed that I got up to go play golf.
That wasn't my question. Was that the first time after the murders that you had had a discussion with Paula relative to what messages she left you or you left her or any discussion whatsoever related to messages?
I don't recall. I just recall it was the only time I had a conversation with Paula concerning how she was feeling that day, and I don't recall if we talked about messages. I didn't see -- you know, it didn't stand out, any conversation I had with her.
The discussion that you are now referencing where you asked Paula
about how she is feeling that day, when did that happen?
The statement that you "kind of leisurely got ready to go, " do you see that on line 25 on page 13?
Okay. And I take it that you have a practice of making sure that you get ready with enough time to make it to the airport to assure yourself that you'll be able to get on the plane and get to Chicago or your business appointment?
Well, it's debatable. My limo drivers would say no, and I will point out to them that I've only missed one flight in my whole life.
I don't consider it late. As I said, I only missed one flight in my whole life, and that's because the guy took the midtown tunnel instead of the 59th Street bridge, which I told him to do.
And so, for example, on the evening of June 12th, you didn't consider yourself running late?
I considered it just the way I always am. I really thought I had had plenty of time to get to the airport, which I did, and I would have had more time if I wouldn't have taken the time that I took with Kato.
Well, would you ever use that term to characterize your status in talking to a limousine driver as of June 12: That you were running late? Would that be a term you would use to describe what your time situation
was?
Yeah, but every time a limo driver comes to my house, it's the same act; it's the same thing: "You're late. You're running late," and I'm hustling, but I always know in my head that I got plenty of time, and I've never--and I travel more than just everybody in this room combined, and I've only missed one flight in my whole life, but it's the same--I had less time earlier that week trying to catch a plane to go to Washington. The limo driver said, "You running late." And I say, "Yeah, I know I'm running late," but in my mind I was --well, on that trip I thought I was running late, but once again I had plenty of time when I got to the airport, and I made my flight.
It's a habit of mine to get ready, put everything basically where I want it to be, and at the last minute it's sort of a whirlwind, and it's--it is consistent with what I do all the time.
So even though you may tell a limousine driver you're running late, in your mind you're really not running late--
So if you told Alan Park on June 12th that you were running late, in your mind you may have believed that you were actually running on time?
Not necessarily on time. I just knew I wouldn't miss my flight. I knew I had time to make the flight. I wasn't concerned really--that concerned about missing the flight, and so, no, I didn't think I would miss the flight.
Other than the Kato discussions that you had that evening where he was talking to you about the noises, was there anything else that impeded or made it difficult for you to get ready on time?
I have a habit, and I don't know why, but I have a habit that once the limo get there, that sometimes my -- well, my golf clubs were packed this time. Normally they're not. He -- the limo driver sometimes has to do that. And historically I'm always looking for my cell phone. That's just -- don't ask me why. It's just a situation that normally Michelle will go out to the car and get it if she 's there or the limo driver would go look somewhere for it if he's there. It's just--you know, it's just the way I am.
That wasn't a problem on the 12th with respect to your cell phone, because you had it. Right?
No. When I came down, I didn't have it. I walked back in the house and got it off a counter, and I didn't have the rest of the stuff to go with it, which I consider -- you know, it's like a football helmet: You know, if you don't have your helmet, you don't have your uniform. Even though you might have on all the other stuff, you're still not properly dressed. I needed the rest of my stuff, so I didn't have it all together, no.
Yeah, I was kind of spacing. I had a book in my lap and my TV was on, so I was just sort of spacing.
But, I mean, if you wanted to, you could have gotten up and jumped in the shower at any time that time frame. There is nothing that would have prevented you from doing that. Right?
No. I was actually waiting, which is my custom, for the phone call to initiate me doing those things. That's the way I normally work it.
Yeah. Normally I'm doing something else, may be eating. I may be --if it's daytime, I may be out back. I may be doing just about anything, but normally I got things laid out, and I use that as my okay, get -- you know, it puts me in my high gear.
Okay. And you travel extensively, more so than anyone else in this room, just as you indicated. Right?
And this is a practice that you routinely follow as a triggering event to you getting ready?
And that is that when you get a phone call from the limousine driver, that will trigger taking a shower or finishing your packing or dressing or anything that you have to do to get ready. Is that true?
Normally, yes. I mean, there are times when the limo driver is late and Michelle or somebody will say, "You better get going."
Roughly. I think I had just looked at it. So when I was on the bed, I know that was one of the things. I had looked at my travel folder, yes.
That would be kind of important for you to know in order to know whether you're running late or not, right, what time your plane was going to leave?
Okay. And in your mind, based upon your experience traveling, you knew roughly how long it would take you to get from the airport -- Strike that. Based upon your experience traveling, you knew roughly how long it would take to get from your house to the airport. True?
And I take it that that estimate would be based upon normal traffic conditions for a Sunday evening?
No. I probably take as many red eyes as anybody, so, yes, I'm pretty much--I'm pretty aware of how long it normally takes to get
to the airport, yes.
It's the habit of my limo--I don't know about Park, but it is--I have a rule that you guys, because there were a few times they were late, whatever time we call, they get there 15 minutes early so that I don't have to worry if they're there or not. So it's --I think they had a 10:45 call that night, so they should have been there at
10:30.
And that is a directive that either you or someone on your behalf has given to the limousine service?
I believe so. Over the years, it just became a standard thing with me and my limo service.
Okay. So the limousine service presumably knew that they were to be there 15 minutes before the scheduled time?
Well, that's normally the way it is. I'm just telling you what has been normal over the years with me.
And that experience is based upon your request to have them there 15 minutes early. Is that true?
Well, I'm comfortable with that, yes. I don't recall actually saying it to them, but I know we've had some problems in the past when they were running late, and it's their practice to be there 15 minutes early.
So they knew, presumably, if they were following your directive, that if they were to pick you up at 10:45, they were to be there by 10:30. Is that true?
I can't say it's my directive. It's just their habit to be there 15 minutes early, and that's the way it's always been, basically.
And when you say it was "their habit to be there 15 minutes early," did that include actually acknowledging that they were waiting there for you?
Is that the triggering event that you would generally rely upon to start getting ready and finalizing your packing and so forth before leaving to the airport?
The majority of the time. I mean, I had housekeepers sometimes that would push me, but -- or my kids -- "Come on, Daddy, get ready," as my daughter testified to -- but basically that's it, yes.
So if we follow what the normal practice was, if we're to assume that the limousine was scheduled to be at your house at 10:45, they would arrive at 10:30. True?
Okay. And on this particular occasion the limousine was scheduled to be there at 10:45. Is that correct?
And based upon the normal custom and practice that you had experienced with your limousine service, you expected to hear a phone ring at about 10:30. Is that true?
Okay. And had you received a phone call at 10:30, presumably that would have triggered your getting ready. Right?
10:35 or 10:40. I'm not sure because -- I'm just not totally sure. It was right at those times.
Anywhere between 10:35 and 10:40, in that time period because you're not certain, you were still on your bed. Right?
And you hadn't -- Had you appreciated at any point the fact that the limousine driver was not running, as they customarily ran, l 5 minutes early from their scheduled--
Yeah, I got a little concerned that I may have to drive myself to the airport or I may have--I may have
checked to see if Kato was home and told him to do it.
I can't have a recollection of something just told you. If he hadn't of come, I would have -- I was
thinking at the time I would have driven myself or I would have asked Kato to take me to the airport, and since he had come before I was ready to go, I didn't have to do those things.
Okay. So that we're clear, at some point, 10:35, 10:40, you began to be somewhat concerned about the fact that the limousine driver hadn't rang.
I don't know about concerned. I looked and said where was the limo driver and then I just started doing the things that I had to do to get ready to go.
Okay. Everybody is just going to have to slow down. I cannot keep up with this testimony. I cannot keep a record. So you are just both going to have to slow down for
me here. Okay?
That's a figure of speech again. When I say "I looked," I looked at the clock. The limo driver I noticed, hadn't rung me, so I didn't know if he was running late or not. I just knew that I had to start getting ready to go.
You never looked out your window or made any effort to look outside at the Ashford gate to see
if the limousine was sitting there. Is that true?
Okay. And so that at roughly between 10:35 and 10:40, I guess you decided that you were going to get up and get ready on your own without this triggering event occurring. Right?
It was time to go. It was time for me to do the things I needed to do to be ready to go, yes.
Okay. And at any time before you got in the shower, do you recall making any effort to determine
whether Mr. Kaelin was still home--
Did you make any effort to determine whether Arnelle was home in the event she had to take out to the airport?
Did you make any telephone contacts with anyone as kind of a backup in the event that the limousine driver didn't show up and you needed a ride to the airport?
And it was at this point that you got into the shower--you went to the bathroom and then got into the shower?
Mr. Petrocelli asked you during the course of his examination whether you were asleep between I believe 10:00 o'clock and 10:45, and you indicated that you were not. Is that true?
Yeah, I was fighting sleep, and that was the biggest problem I was having, falling asleep. So I was sitting there trying not to nod off, that's why I was trying to read and keep myself active.
Okay. Because you were going to take a red eye, and you normally sleep on a red eye. Right?
In fact it wouldn't make a lot of sense to take a nap or sleep before you go on a red eye. Right?
And other than your lawyers, have you ever told anyone that at the time of these murders, you overslept?
If someone made a statement on your behalf that you were asleep at the time of these murders, would that be a false statement?
Because if someone made a statement on his behalf, it's irrelevant. I mean, you know what the facts are, what his testimony is going to be, and he is not going to answer it.
Well, I want to know, if somebody who was an agent of his made a statement that he was asleep at the time of these murders, the basis for that statement.
I believe sometime Tuesday. I don't know if we had really decided Tuesday. I know I for the most part spoke to him Tuesday and liked him, and it may have been Wednesday.
And, Mr. Simpson, as you've already testified in this deposition, you were the only person that knows your whereabouts between 10:00 o'clock and 10:45. Is that true?
When Mr. Shapiro took over the -- your representation, do you recall him making a statement on national television that at the time of the murders you were asleep?
Well, Mr. Shapiro is a lawyer, gets on national television and says that Mr. Simpson is asleep?
So what? You are not going to get it out of this witness, and if you get it -- you know, if you get a ruling out of the judge that it's relevant, good for you. It won't surprise me in this case, but it's--
Moving--fast forwarding a bit to your trip to Chicago on the plane, you were in first class. Is that correct?
And I take it that other than takeoff and landing, the lights were off inside the plane during the trip?
And other than reading "Inca Gold," did you do anything else, write or work or anything of that nature on the trip back to Chicago?
I probably did. I may have looked at what I was doing in Chicago. I may have thought about some of the things that I would say.
Did you have one particular stewardess that waited--not waited, but that handled the people in First Class?
Flight attendant. I know there's always a First Class flight attendant. I know the girls from the back came up once and got me a glass of water, I believe, but I--you know, I really wasn't paying attention to the stewardesses.
Okay. And was there any particular reason, other than just using it for -- because you had to go to the bathroom, that you had to utilize the restroom on the trip to Chicago?
So you believe there were five separate occasions, roughly, that you had to actually use the facilities in the air back to Chicago?
Okay. And while you were in the restroom, when you activate the lock the lights go on, don't they?
So, for example, it will be vacant -- you'll go in, you'll shut the door you'll push the lock, and the lights go on inside the restroom.
And on these roughly five occasions -- by the way, do you have a practice of washing your hands after you go to the bathroom?
Okay. And do you recall any specific occasions where you washed your hands en route back to Chicago?
Do you recall on any of these five occasions looking down and seeing any wounds or cuts to your hands?
Just so I am clear, you don't have a specific recollection of actually washing your hands headed back--as you were going back to Chicago?
Do you have a specific recollection of putting a Band-Aid on any cut on any of your fingers--
When you got back to Chicago and you got to the hotel room, you indicated that you kind of put your toiletries out, and then I think you went to sleep. Is that true?
Why don't we just stop right here and we can change the tape.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No.1 of Volume VIII. The time is approximately 11:42, and we are off the record.
We have journeyed back here, Mr. Simpson, to Chicago with you, and we are in your hotel room now and -- sometime after 6:00, and you have arrived at the hotel, and I think you've put out the toiletries in your bathroom. True?
It may have been after. You know, I only think that because of what I hear now, but at the time I had no idea what time it is. I assumed it was about 6:00 o'clock.
Okay. And do you assume that because the sun was coming up as you were going from the airport to the hotel?
No. I assumed that for--I knew the flight and the time it took to get the luggage and get to the hotel that it would be getting close to 6:00.
And am I correct on the rest of it, that you put out the toiletries when you got in the room?
Okay. When you got the phone call from Detective Phillips or one of the detectives--do you remember that?
And I take it that when you were told by one of the detectives that Nicole had been killed, that that was -- you were in shock.
Well, you were awakened early in the morning and told by a detective that your wife had been killed.
I don't know what it was. I just know it was like--I can't describe it. It's -- you can't describe it. I can't describe how I was. It was...
While I was on the phone with him, you know what? I don't know what I did, basically. I know I -- it was hard to believe and I know I was saying something to him, and then I was at that point trying to hear what he was saying to me.
Well, you've already related, and I don't want to go back over it, a discussion with the detective, and then you spoke with Arnelle. Right?
After you hung up with Arnelle, was there a period of time where you were crying after learning of this shocking news?
Yeah, while you were in Chicago, and the time period that I am focusing on right now, Mr. Simpson, is when you hung up with Arnelle.
I know I was pissed and I was like feeling--I don't know what I was feeling. It was just so hard to digest. And I may have cried. I don't know. I know I did on the plane a little bit because I was trying not to let--for the people not to see, but I don't know.
I may have.
Let's just talk about what you do remember doing. You don't remember one way or the other whether you cried. True?
I'm not-- what do you mean, "screamed"? Was I loud? Probably was loud. I mean, I wasn't screaming like, you know, Fay Wray or nothing, but I was probably loud. I have a habit of being loud.
Yeah, venting. I don't know if I'm talking to myself. Just I have a habit of thinking out loud.
Were you walking around the room as you were venting upon hearing that your wife had been killed -- your ex-wife had been killed?
Okay. What I am trying to focus on, Mr. Simpson, is after you were told that Nicole had been killed, was there a period of time where you just had to go through some emotional response, where you weren't making phone calls or using the restroom or brushing your teeth, where you were sitting on the bed or walking around trying to deal with this news emotionally?
The whole time I was, even when I was sitting and walking and even fell back on the bed a few times, I was doing -- during the whole period of time I was trying to deal with it emotionally. There's no -- you don't turn on your emotions and turn your emotions off. The entire time I was trying to deal with it emotionally. No matter what I was doing, I was trying to deal with it emotionally.
Was there a period of time where you were trying to deal with it emotionally before you affirmatively started getting ready to leave?
And then you've described a process where you were going back and forth between the restroom and the phone making phone calls trying to make travel arrangements, and it's at some point there that you broke the glass. Right?
And you indicated to Detective Vannatter and Lange that you broke the glass as you were going bonkers a little bit. Right?
And were you indicating to them that upon hearing the news you were angry and, as a result of that anger, broke the glass?
I don't know what I was indicating to them. I just broke the glass while I was doing the things that I was doing, trying to get out of there and trying to get back home.
When you used the term "bonkers," were you attempting to imply that you were out of control?
And is it your testimony sir, that you were out of control at the time that you broke the glass in Chicago?
I may have been. It may not have happened while I was--I just know that I was -- I was -- I don't know what I was.
Well let's not talk about possibilities. Let's talk about what you recall. Because you recall telling the detectives that you were bonkers when this glass broke. Right?
Do you have a specific recollection and -- strike that. You've also indicated that by the term "bonkers" you're referencing a state of mind where you're out of control. Right?
Sort of. When I say "out of control," I mean, I wasn't jumping out of any window or anything, but, yes, I was charged.
Okay. When you told the detectives that you broke the glass as you were going bonkers, was that inaccurate?
I need to read that because I don't think I said, "I was going bonkers." I said, "I kinda went kind bonkers for a little bit," and I don't know if I said, "as I was going bonkers I broke the glass." I don't know if that was what I said.
I just know during this period of time I would reach the point where it was just like just trying to digest it all was a little much.
Let's go to that then. Page 15, f you have the statement in front of you, Mr. Simpson and we are going to start at line 12, and the question that you were asked, and this is in reference to how you cut the finger, "How did you do it in Chicago?'
Suspect: "I broke a glass. I just was -- you had -- one of you guys had just called me and I was in the bathroom and I just kind of went bonkers...a little bit."
Let's, so that we're clear, we are on -- there are three stars that indicate something is undecipherable, at least that's my interpretation, and we certainly don't have the tape. But you read it accurately. I don't mean to imply you did not.
Because as you'll see in the logo, three stars means unintelligible, first page.
You see where it says or where I read, "I...went-- "kinda went bonkers a little bit"?
And you were relating that state of mind to the detectives in connection with describing at what point you broke the glass. True?
Yeah, I went bonkers for a little bit. I don't know if that's when I broke the glass. It could have been but, as you told me, I shouldn't comment if I don't know for sure, and I don't. I just know I went bonkers; a glass got broke. I wasn't -- I was trying to get on the phone. I was trying to get a flight out. So I was going back and forth, and during the course of all of that, and I--I broke the glass.
Okay. Let's try to be real clear here then on a couple things. When you say you "went bonkers"--
- and in the context of describing how the glass was broken, you're not certain today whether that was your state of mind when the glass broke or not. Is that true?
When it actually broke, I don't know what my state of mind--I was agitated from the time I heard the call to the time I left, and during the course of getting on and off the telephone, trying to get packed, the glass broke.
Okay. Would you say that when you first learned of Nicole's death from one of the detectives, that your emotional reaction kind of reached a crescendo and then diminished as time went on?
Did you tend to gain a little bit more wits about yourself as time went on after having the opportunity to digest this information a little bit?
You had mentioned during Mr. Petrocelli's examination that you didn't recall whether you slammed the glass down. Right?
Why don't you get it. I mean, I may have slammed it down, I may not have slammed it down, but it broke.
Okay. Let's go from that. As you sit here today, is it your testimony that you could have slammed it down, as one possible explanation for the glass breaking?
And when you're talking about you could have, do you have some memory or recollection that you slammed the glass down?
Okay. What I would like to do in the next five minutes before we break is I want to rule out things that are possible, because a number of things are possible, and try to focus on what you have some recollection of doing. Okay?
You have no recollection one way or the other of affirmatively doing anything to break the glass. Is that true?
You have no recollection one way or the other of slamming a glass down and breaking it. Is that true?
I may have. Somewhere in my mind that may have happened because I was slamming everything around, so that could have happened,
yes.
Just everything that I was throwing around. I was rude on the telephone. I was throwing things together to pack to get out of there . Yes, that could have happened. That could have been it.
And were you slamming things around on all these occasions or just while you were in the hotel room?
Well, when you say "aggressive," I'm talking about you said that you were slamming things around." You used that term. Right?
(Indicating.) You know, to me that's slamming things around. I was doing that all day, yes.
Okay. So when you're talking about slamming things around, you've just demonstrated physically taking cups, pens, slamming them down on the table. Is that true?
Okay. Other than the glass that you broke in Chicago, did you break anything else that day while you were slamming things around?
Okay. And so the basis for the statement that you've made that that is a possible explanation is the recollection that you have of slamming things down all day. Right?
Okay. But you don't have a specific recollection of slamming the
glass down and having it break while you're doing it. Right?
As I say, it might have. I just know that it broke when I was moving things around in the bathroom, and it broke.
Wait a second. Now, you're saying that it broke when you were moving things around the bathroom?
Yes. I was trying to get my stuff out of the bathroom. I either slammed the glass down or knocked it over. I don't know exactly what it was. But I know that was my state of mind at the time, that I was like--I was like a little bonkers, and the glass broke during
the course of that, and that's the best I can answer it no matter how many different ways you talk about this.
Okay. And I don't want to go over it, Mr. Simpson. You've discussed it. But what I want to do is focus on what's possible versus what you have a recollection of doing. Okay?
Because you've talked about slamming things down throughout
the day because of your state of mind. True? You did that.
Yes. I mean, I was aggressive throughout the day. I may have
thrown my suitcase. I may have -- I was pretty aggressive throughout the day.
Okay. Now, do you have a specific recollection of slamming down a glass inside that bathroom?
I may have. As I said, I wasn't thinking about slamming at the time . It was my state of mind. So it's possible. As you say, what's possible and not possible--it's possible.
Well, it's possible I woke up in China this morning, but I know that I didn't. I am just trying to find out what you recall, not what's possible. Do you have--
You said earlier "possible," and I'm telling you it's possible that's how it happened. That's the only way I can answer the question.
Do you have any memory at all as you sit here today of taking that glass and slamming it down on the table?
I broke a glass. I know that's a fact. It's possible how it happened is when I was slamming things around or trying to pack things. I was a little aggressive.
Okay. So what we have established is that you broke a glass and that it's possible that it happened when you were slamming it around, so far. Is that correct?
As you sit here today, do you have some memory -- some specific memory of breaking that glass by slamming it down while you're in Chicago?
Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 12:01.
Mr. Simpson, we are back from our lunch break, and let's pick up where we left off. We were trying to narrow down some of these issues in Chicago, and we were talking about whether or not you recall slamming down a glass and breaking it in Chicago. Do you recall that discussion?
Okay. You indicated in connection with some of my questions that it's possible that you don't recall. Do you recall that?
Well, I'm saying it's possible it could have happened at times that you indicated. I just knew it happened during that period of time. I just l can't tell you specifically at what instance it happened. It just happened during a time when there was a lot of--I can't call it confusion, but where I was being somewhat emotional, and I was trying to get out of Chicago.
Okay. I want to go through a number of questions, and what I would like to try to focus on is what you recall today or don't recall today--
As you sit here today, do you recall whether or not you slammed a glass down, causing it to break?
Do you recall whether you knocked over a glass with your hand, accidentally causing it to break?
Okay. So you have some recollection that however the glass broke, it was not done by you intentionally. Is that a fair statement?
And is it fair to also assume that, by your answer, that you broke the glass accidentally?
Do you have any recollection of hitting it with any part of your body other than your hand?
Okay. When you say it "could have been," do you now have a recollection as you sit here today of some luggage being involved in connection with the glass breaking?
Well, yeah, in my bathroom I had my overnight toiletry kit, and I believe I brought my big bag in there at one point, too.
I think I was just packing. It was just a part of packing and whatever I was trying to do at the time.
Did you bring your grip into the restroom or the bathroom before or after the glass broke?
So as you sit here today, you have no recollection at all that your grip was involved in any way with breaking this glass. Is that true?
I'm sorry. That's not my question. My question is: Do you recall as you sit here today right now any involvement whatsoever in your grip in causing this glass to break?
Okay. Do you have a recollection of the glass that broke being on the counter sink -- I'm sorry--on the sink counter at the time that it broke?
Okay. So at the time that the glass broke, is it fair to say that as you sit here today, you have no recollection with respect to where it was located?
I'm sure it was on the counter, but other than that, I have--it's just not something that's been in my mind, no.
Do you have a specific recollection of it being on the counter, or are you assuming it was because that's where the broken glass was located?
Okay. So you have no specific recollection as you sit here today whether it was actually on the counter at the time that it was broken. Is that true?
Okay. Do you have a specific recollection of whether or not you threw the glass at something to break it?
Is that something that's possible, or are you able to rule that out as a potential explanation for how the glass broke?
Okay. And that would also be true throwing it either at a wall or throwing it on the floor or throwing it on the counter. Are we able to rule all of those scenarios out as you sit here today?
Except the counter, if I kind of knocked it over or put it down hard. Except for the counter. I can rule out that I didn't throw it at the wall or the floor.
Okay. What I am talking about is not putting it down hard, but actually throwing it like a baseball at the counter--
Okay. When you say you don't recall, is that one of the possible explanations in your view? Can we definitively rule out the fact that you may have thrown the glass at the counter top, causing it to
break?
I'm pretty sure I didn't do that, but I don't -- I don't -- you know. I don't -- the glass is not something I -- I don't--no, I don't.
Okay. Let me just make sure I'm clear. Are you saying you're able to rule that out definitively?
In that bathroom at that time, I can't say "anything." If you were specific, I can answer as best I can specific questions.
Okay. Now, you have described in earlier testimony the mechanics of what you were doing at the time that you cut your finger. Correct?
And as I understand your testimony essentially you were in a sweeping motion moving the glass towards the sink with your left hand. Is that true?
Well, I don't know about a sweeping motion. Maybe I indicated that with my hand. I knew I was trying to get the glass out from around my stuff into the sink, and I cut my hand at that time.
Okay. Now, do you recall as you sit here today moving, and if you watch my hand, moving the glass towards the sink in a sweeping motion using the back of your hand as a leading edge?
Not using my hand. I was using a towel to do it, but l do recall trying to sweep the bits into the sink, and I do recall noticing that I had cut my hand.
Okay. So as you sit here today, you have a specific recollection of using a towel as kind of a broom, moving the glass towards the sink?
I just want to show you a copy of Exhibit 71. If you need to look at the original, we'll pull it. Faintly, it's better than my photograph, if you want to see it. Do you see a towel bar in the upper right portion of the photograph?
Okay. This is a little better. Just look at mine just to see if it refreshes -- Do you see what appears to be a towel bar in the upper right portion of the photograph--
--the photocopy of the photograph? Is that where you got the towel from that you were using to assist you in sleeping up-- sweeping up the glass?
I don't--it was just a small towel because I also used a little toilet paper. So it was just a towel. It was just whatever was sitting there. I don't know if it was a towel I had used the night before or a towel that I just grabbed at that time, but -- it wasn't what I was--what was on my mind, so I don't recall.
You just characterized it as a "small towel." When you use that term, are you talking about a hand towel or a washcloth as opposed to a towel that you would use to dry yourself off?
Okay. So we're able to say at least with some degree of definity that it was either a hand towel or a washcloth that you used to sweep up the glass, as you sit here today?
Okay. And you pulled that towel -- Strike that. You used that towel to sweep up that glass before you ever cut yourself. Is that true?
And were you applying the towel to the surface of the counter top, moving the glass towards the sink?
Okay. And did something happen while you were doing that that caused you to cut your finger that you now -- that you recall as you sit here today?
I was going back and forth to the phone, and I don't recall if someone was waiting on the phone for me or if the phone had just rung, but I was going back and forth to the phone. I do recall that was what was going on during this particular time.
When you were going back and forth to the phone, are you talking about before you ever began to clean up the glass, or after you had started cleaning up the glass you went back to the phone for some reason?
I believe through all the time I was in the room, once I received the call from the LAPD, I was -- it's almost a continual thing until I left the room.
From everywhere. From everywhere. Whatever was going on, I would -- whatever I was doing. I'd be on the phone. I'd be off the phone. I'd be on the phone. I'd be off the phone.
Okay. Other than packing up your toiletries and perhaps cleaning up and shaving or brushing your teeth, was there any reason why you had to go back and forth from the restroom to the phone?
Okay. And as you sit here today now, do you have a specific recollection of cutting yourself after you began the process with this towel of moving the glass into the sink?
Now, as you sit here today, do you have a specific recollection, after you began the process of cleaning up the glass, of going from that point to the phone either to make a call or to receive a call that was coming into the hotel room?
Well, when you say, "I know I was back and forth to the phone," what I am asking you for today is a specific recollection, whether you have one or not, of going to the phone after you began the process of cleaning up the glass that you've just described for us.
Well, I know I was back and forth to the phone, and I know that--that I cut--I believe it was in the midst of all of that I cut my hand, so... I know I was back and forth to the phone before and I would believe after. Yes. Yes. So I can't tell you what phone call--I was coming in or going out or if I was on the phone at the time it happened, but I do know I was back and forth before and after it happened.
So in your mind as you're sitting here today, you have some recollection of attempting to clean up this glass and then at some point moving towards the phone. Is that true?
And then you're talking about having to go to the phone to use the phone either to make a call or to receive a call. Right?
I know I was back and forth to the phone, and I know during the midst of doing all that I cut my hand. At what point that happened--I wasn't thinking about at what point that was happening. I was trying to get out of Chicago and I was trying to get to L.A.
I understand all that, Mr. Simpson, and all I'm asking for is what you know today. What's I your recollection as you're sitting here today in this deposition?
My recollection is during the course of trying to get out of Chicago, I was on and off the telephone. In the midst of all that I cut my hand at some point, and I was still back and forth trying to get out of Chicago, trying to get a flight out, trying to get someone to take me to the airport, and in the midst of all that I cut my hand. That is my recollection.
Okay. Well, let's see if we can break it down a little bit, maybe stir your recollection. Focusing on the time period that I'm focusing on where you began to move the glass into the sink, as you sit here today, do you have a specific recollection of going to the phone?
He didn't ask that. Just, do you have a recollection in your mind's eye right now of doing that? If you don't, just say, I don't.
Okay. Do you have a recollection of -- in your mind's eye as you sit here today of what you were doing as you cut your finger?
Do you have a recollection as to the position of your hand at the time that you cut your finger?
Do you have a recollection as to whether your hand was moving at the time that you cut your finger?
Do you have a recollection with respect to where your hand was in relationship to the towel at the time that you cut your finger?
Do you have a recollection as to whether your finger began to bleed after you cut your finger?
And do you remember where you were in the hotel room when you first recall seeing any blood that you associated with this cut?
And when you first saw blood associated with the cut, where were you located in the bathroom?
Just in the bathroom. It wasn't a big bathroom. So at some place in the bathroom. I wasn't sitting on the commode, and I wasn't in the shower. I was standing in the bathroom, a relatively small bathroom, yes.
Okay. Were you still cleaning up the glass when you made this observation that you had in fact cut your finger?
I don't know. I don't know. I don't recall if I was at that point or not. I know I grabbed some toilet paper and I believe went back to the phone, but once again it was a continual thing that was going on.
Okay. Is it fair to say then that as you sit here today, at the time that you cut your finger, you have no recollection as to whether you had completed this process of putting the glass into the sink or whether you were still involved in that process?
Well, he didn't say he was putting the glass in the sink. He said glass chips in the sink.
Okay. When I use the term "glass" you understand I am talking about the glass particles as a result of the glass breaking.
And then when you saw that you had glass on your--Strike that. When you saw that you had a cut on your finger, you put some type of toilet paper on it?
Okay. So you have no recollection as to whether you used a washcloth in order to dab blood off your finger?
I don't think -- I don't know if I stopped the bleeding or not. I just wrapped my hand -- finger with some toilet paper, yes.
Okay. At any time after you first noticed that you had cut your finger, did you ever get back into your bed?
Okay. My question is pretty specific: After you cut your finger, did you ever get back into the bed as though you were sleeping, pull the covers back up over on top?
No. I fell back on the bed a few times while I was waiting on the phone, but the covers were all flipped back at the time.
Well, when you say you "probably did," do you have a recollection as to -- one way or the other whether you did or you didn't?
Okay. And you recall, however, at some point when you were on the phone sitting on the bed. Is that true?
Okay. So every occasion where you would get on the phone and talk to someone about travel arrangements or whatever, you would sit on the bed.
Okay. And do you recall when you were sitting on the bed whether you were sitting on a bedspread or bed sheets?
Yeah. As I said, while I was waiting sometimes I fell back on the bed. Sometimes I was just sitting up on the bed. Whatever.
What does that mean, "sitting up on the bed?" You got physically on the bed and were sitting up with your back against the headboard?
Okay. And you were sitting there, laying back, as you were waiting for phone calls or something?
No. Sometimes they had me on hold, and sometimes they were trying to find things, you know, whatever they were doing on the other end. Sometimes I was waiting for a call, but I don't think I sat on the bed while I was waiting for a call. I think it was normally when they were trying to find flight arrangements or whatever was -- when I was actually on the phone.
Do you ever recall on any of those occasions sliding your left hand underneath the covers?
Okay. So you have a recollection at some point of looking into the sink and seeing most of the glass being successfully deposited into the sink?
l have a recollection of not seeing any glass that I could further injure myself on. So when I was collecting my things, I didn't see anything. Anything I saw, I kicked into the sink.
Okay. And when you say that you didn't see any glass at all, you are talking about the counter top?
Do you have a specific recollection as you sit here today of putting your toiletries inside the toiletry bag after you successfully put the glass into the sink?
I don't know if that was after or before or what. Maybe some of it was before, some of it may have been after, but I don't have a memory as to the exact sequence of events at that time.
Okay. Let's just focus now on packing up the toiletries and see what you recall and what you don't recall as you sit here today. As you sit here today, do you recall putting any toiletries into your toiletry container or luggage prior to the glass breaking?
No.
0: Do you recall putting any of the toiletries into the container that contained the toiletries after the glass was broken?
Okay. And do you have a specific recollection of putting any of the toiletries into the luggage after you cut your finger?
Okay. So is it fair to say that you have no recollection at all with respect to the sequence that we're talking about when you packed your toiletries? Is that fair?
I know that I was trying to pack it without the glass, you know. I know it was broken around my toiletries. But specifically when I took my deodorant or something and put it in there, I don't-- can't tell you when that was.
Okay. So you have some recollection, however, of packing some of the toiletries while working around the glass. Right?
Do you recall -- do you have a specific recollection of what you were putting away at that time?
Well, he just asked if you have a specific recollection. If you don't, just tell him.
When you cut your finger, did you look at the finger and assess whether you thought it needed some type of sutures?
You mentioned in some of the -- of your earlier testimony that you thought you were crying on the plane. Do you remember that?
Do you know whether anyone was sitting -- Strike that. Do you recall whether anyone was sitting next to you as you were crying?
Well, there was a guy sitting two seats over from me. I know that. A seat over, I should say.
Well, do you have a recollection as you sit here today as to whether this gentleman made any comment to you as you were crying, headed back from Chicago to your home?
You've made the statement in the past that all of Nicole's friends knew how much you loved her. Is that true?
Okay. It was your belief as of June 13th that the Brown family, specifically Judy and Lou, knew how much you loved Nicole?
Yeah. I think anybody that's ever spent time with Nicole and I knew we loved each other, yes.
Okay. And the basis for that statement is that if they spent time with you, they would have a chance to see how you are together--how you were together and formulate what you believe is the correct interpretation that you were good together. Is that true?
I don't think there has been any doubt in Judy and Lou's mind that Nicole and I loved each other.
Okay. How about Denise? Do you think she had-- is it your understanding she had the same belief?
Well, I never thought about what Denise thought. Denise was never--and I were never like close.
Okay. Did you believe that most of Nicole's friends had the same opinion of your relationship?
Her friends, yeah. They knew that we had our problems, but any time you split, you got problems. But I would say if you went to her close friends, the people who knew her over the years that spent time with us, that they would say we had a decent relationship, yes.
And the first thing she did--one of the first things she said was to accuse you or suggest that you were somehow responsible for the murders. Is that true?
Okay. Did that surprise you when you heard her suggest that you were somehow responsible for the murders?
And did it surprise you because you thought she would know, based upon your relationship, that it's something that you could never do?
Didn't surprise me for any other reason. It's just a surprise that she was talking to me the way she was, yelling at me the way she was. It surprised me, yes.
Did you ever say anything in response to her when she accused you or suggested that you were somehow responsible for the murder?
And did you ever have occasion to--did you have a chance to deny to Denise that you were responsible for the death of Nicole?
When you heard this comment from Denise, were you at all concerned that somehow Lou or Judy shared the same view: That you were somehow responsible for the death of Nicole?
Who were the good friends of Nicole that you believe felt that you and Nicole had a strong relationship?
When you say "strong relationship," they knew that we loved each other. I don't think there's any doubt that Nicole and I loved each other. Even when we were apart, we always said we loved each other.
But the people who I think were her good friends were Suzie Rehoe over the years, Pam Schwartz, Cora Fishman. I would say of all of her friends, the ones that were her friends for years and were still her friends at her death, that these were the people who probably knew her best and knew her longest.
So the three women that you identified would be the people--the friends that would come to mind of Nicole's that would have some knowledge of the quality of your relationship?
She might have asked me. Not then, but maybe later on, but I'm not sure. l can't answer that question. She may have asked me later on.
Do you have a recollection as you sit here today of some conversation or discussion with Cora where this topic came up, your possible involvement in these murders?
And she may said, "You didn't do this, and I said, No, and then we talked about whatever there was, you know.
Okay. And you remember having a discussion where she said something to the effect that you didn't do this?
And given your understanding of what she knew of your relationship, were you surprised that she would even ask you the question?
And were you not surprised because of information that had come out implicating your involvement in the murders?
Mere fact? If you're in jail for 15 months, it wouldn't be a mere fact, I can assure you of that.
Well, did you know at the time you were going to be in jail for 15 months when you had this discussion with Cora Fishman?
I don't know. When you say, "Had the prosecution, they had arrested me and they had me in jail.
You believe you had already gone through the preliminary hearing at the time you had this conversation with Cora?
I believe it was three or four months into my incarceration, so that would have been--I believe that would have been after any hearing.
Well, it wasn't a discussion. She was crying and I was hugging her, and she was, you know--and it was more of a commiseration, you know, whatever you say at times like that to one another.
Okay. Other than that occasion that you just described, this was the second occasion where you had a discussion with Cora Fishman?
I believe I called her just to find out what had--what was going on. I may have asked her what had been going on.
I felt I was out of the mix as what was going on with the girls, you know, at that time, and I was--you know, I was, like everybody else, trying to find out what was going on.
Well, did you call Cora because you wanted to find out what she would say if she testified?
You know what I wanted? I remember specifically. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't deluded, and I think I may have said this to her, because -- this may have been a lot more than three or four months, because I know things were coming out that Faye Resnick had been saying, and what I wanted--I just wanted to hear someone say that the Nicole that I knew--that I wasn't this far off base, that the Nicole I knew wasn't the person that I was hearing. And some of the things that I was hearing at that time I wasn't
buying, and I just needed to hear from someone who I felt was a friend of Nicole's have the same--you know, that we were talking about the same person.
Was the impetus behind your call to Cora the information that had come out in Faye's book?
I believe so. I know it was just a lot of--and most of the negative stuff I heard was from Faye's book or, you know, Faye was saying, and it was just disillusioning.
And the negative information that you're referring to in Faye's book was information that relates to you beating Nicole?
No, no. It was about things that Nicole--this Brentwood hello and all of this horrible stuff that was just not Nicole, just not the Nicole that I knew.
Was any purpose behind your call to Cora to try to corroborate or check claims by Faye Resnick in her book relative to your battering of Nicole?
For what reason? There was never any battering of Nicole other than '89, and Faye was--four years before she came into our lives, so whatever Faye would say on that area would not know.
You asked Cora whether Nicole had said anything to her about these alleged incidents. Did you ask her something like that?
No. Nicole and I had one incident. That was in '89. I knew Cora knew about that, so there was no reason for me to talk about that.
So you deny that there was any discussion between you and Cora at that time regarding alleged incidents of spousal abuse. True?
Not a book bag. Anything that's reasonably similar to the description of the bag that Mr. Kaelin gave at his deposition.
Okay. He described something like a college book bag or something of that nature. Do you recall that?
Yeah. but I don't--the backpack things, I've never owned one, no. My kids have, but I haven't.
Well, when you say your "kids have, did they have one at your residence at Rockingham as of June 12, 1994?
Do you have a recollection as you sit here today of seeing one around the premises on or before June 12th, 1994?
On my kids' backs, in my kitchen, in their rooms. Whenever they're going to school, that's what they carried.
When is the last time you have a recollection of seeing a backpack similar to what you just described?
When you say you've seen one in the kitchen, was there a backpack of that type that was stored in the kitchen?
No, but whenever they came in from school, that's where they dumped everything: In the kitchen.
Mr. Kaelin also described an outfit that you were wearing that included --he used the term jogging suit or something of that nature, that had a white zipper down the front. Do you recall that description?
Do you own a jogging suit or a jogging top that's similar to the description that Mr. Kaelin provided?
Let's just talk about the white zipper. Do you own any garment that has a white zipper down the front?
Pardon me. You mean something that not--a jacket may have a white zipper, a windbreaker, I mean, anything. Is that--
I want to include that. I want to include a windbreaker or a jacket or something that you would put on your upper body, and this is as of June 12, 1994, that has a white zipper down the front.
Yeah. I may have some things in my entry closet that I just had her put in there because of this cold weather, but my things are normally kept upstairs in my closet.
Okay. When you say I...have some things in my entry closet that I had her put in there," are you talking about asking Gigi or someone?
I mean, coming in from being out, sometimes maybe temporarily I may have put something in there, but basically my stuff is kept in my closet.
When you heard Mr. Kaelin describing the garment that he observed you in, did you know what garment he was talking about?
Okay. Did you believe he was mistaken when he was describing a garment that you wore to McDonald's having a white zipper?
Had you worn anything that entire day that resembled the garment that was described by Mr. Kaelin in his deposition?
You know, I can't say yes or no because I can't--the way he talks, I don't know what he perceives when he sees things, you know, so I can't say.
Well, he described something fairly specifically: A jogging top or jogging suit with a white zipper. My question to you is: At any time on the 12th do you recall wearing anything that fit that description?
Well, any type of upper-body garment, whether it be a windbreaker, jacket, jogging suit, with a white zipper. Anything that's similar to that?
Okay. So as you sit here today, we're not clear one way or the other whether it has a white zipper. Right?
Okay. Well, can you describe--When I say "windbreaker, I'm talking about kind of like the polyester-type material. Is that what this material is made out of, or cotton or some other material?
When you play golf, if it's a windy day or maybe you get a little rainy, you would put this on.
I see. So it kind of keeps you warm but has--makes--you're able still to swing a golf club?
Little lighter, lighter than what you have on, but, you know. blue. It wasn't ocean, it wasn't aqua blue. but blue.
And is the first time that you recall putting it on that day prior to going to McDonald's?
And so if you had this jacket zipped up, you would have had dark blue pants on and a somewhat of a dark blue top on. Correct?
And if we asked you to go in your closet and locate it and identify it, you would be able to do that?
Maybe. Depending if I can get it back. You guys keep all my things. I showed it to Detective Lange, and he didn't find it interesting.
Well, I am not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you concerned about us taking possession of it?
Well, let's assume that in a perfect world we got a court order, and Mr. Baker was in a good mood that day and actually allowed us to go in and get that jacket.
I wouldn't even allow you on the property, so I am not going to allow you to go in the closet.
No. It's just a windbreaker. It's a good windbreaker, like this jacket I have with me (Indicating).
How about the pants that you were wearing when you went to McDonald's? Do you remember what you did with those pants?
I took them and showed them to him. I think they were still there the next day. After they took all their pictures, they were still in there.
Well, he was with me with Bob Kardashian and Skip Taft, and we went into my closet, and we came out and walked into my bathroom.
Okay. And when you said. "those there, you were in the bathroom when you pointed them out?
They were laying across the tub. They had evidently emptied my hamper and laid a lot of other stuff out.
And you have a number of pants that are similar to the pants that you showed Detective Lange, don't you?
Yeah, I got a lot of them for free. I bought them before I started getting them for free, yes.
Okay. And you have a lot of pants in the same color as the ones that you showed Detective Lange?
So you had two or three pair that were the same color as the pants that you showed Detective Lange on the 13th?
You know the gentleman that you told us about who was on the plane next to you when you were--there were occasions when you were crying?
Okay. The one that we talked about, the person that was next to you with the seat in between.
Okay. And so you were basically sitting roughly in the same position next to him for about four or five hours?
Mr. Simpson, have you ever seen the location of the socks that were found by the Los Angeles Police Department?
The location of your socks when they were found by the Los Angeles Police Department on the carpet.
Do you mean has he ever seen a picture of where they say they were found, or was he ever in the room after he got back on the 13th and saw the socks in his bedroom where the police say they were found?
Well, since you did that, let me just ask a different question: Do you remember where you left your socks after you took them off?
Specifically, no, but I would have put them either in my shoes or in my dirty clothes hamper, one or the other.
So unless something unusual is happening, you would always put your socks away and hang up your pants and hang up your shirts and things like that. Right?
Okay. Now, have you ever seen a photograph that was actually introduced into evidence at the time of your criminal trial by the prosecution that depicted the location where the police indicated or claimed that they found your socks?
And do you recall whether you left your socks on the carpet in front of your bed when you undressed on the evening of June l2, 1994?
Okay. When you say you wouldn't have, do you have a specific recollection as you sit here today of taking your socks off and doing something with them specifically?
Okay. Well, do you have a specific recollection as you sit here today of taking off your socks?
I specifically remember undressing in my closet. That's where I always undress, there or my bathroom. That night I specifically remember undressing in my closet because I was also getting redressed in my closet.
Well, I am being a little bit more specific than just undressing. I am focusing on a particular piece of apparel. Do you have a specific recollection of taking off your socks as you were undressing the evening of June 12, 1994?
I specifically recall totally undressing in my closet. I specifically recall putting on my white socks in my closet.
Well, evidently I took them off, but I do specifically recall undressing in my closet, yes.
And when you say evidently took them off," is it fair to say that you don't have a specific recollection of actually taking them off as you sit here today testifying?
Well, I know I didn't have the socks on underneath white socks, so I knew I took them off in the closet, yes.
You know, I am just asking what your recollection is. I mean, there are certain inferences that you can draw, but I am just asking what you remember as you sit here today.
I remember other than my underwear totally undressing in my bath -- in my closet and putting on other things in my closet except for my pants, because I had to go in my bathroom to put them on.
Okay. So in your mind's eye can you envision as you sit here today reaching down and pulling off your socks?
I just remember undressing, don't remember, my mind's eye, unzipping my pants, but I knew in my closet is where I changed, and I specifically recall doing that.
And as you sit here today, do you specifically recall exactly what you did with your black socks?
I either put them in my shoes, which is what I believe I did, or if they were really dirty, I normally would throw them in the clothes--the hamper. So they should have been in my shoes.
Okay. Now, you've indicated what you normally do and what you believe you did. What do you recall if anything, doing relative to those socks after you took them off?
Okay. So as you sit here today. you don't have a specific recollection of what you did with the socks after you took them off. Is that a fair statement?
I put them in my shoes, I'm pretty sure. If they were dirty, I would have put them in the hamper, but I'm pretty sure I put them in my shoes.
Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:30.
Mr. Simpson, you indicated in earlier testimony that after you returned from Chicago, you decided to go over to Bob Kardashian's house and spend the night. Do you recall that testimony?
When you got back from the police station after giving your statement, you basically stayed the rest of the day and evening of the 13th at your home. Is that true?
I don't know about much. I spent an hour or two I believe watching TV, and then I went up to my bedroom. I was exhausted.
Okay. And is this the occasion where you heard the Avila news report: On the 13th when you got back to your house?
I don't recall. It was that week; I know that, but I don't know if it was really that day or not.
Do you recall at some point hearing or learning, again other than conversations you had with your attorneys, that the police suspected that the murderer who dropped blood at the crime scene had cut his or her left extremity?
You recall some--Strike that. You have some recollection of hearing court testimony wherein people testified that or theorized that the killer had cut himself on the left extremity as they were leaving because they were dripping blood as they were leaving the murder site?
Or something to that effect. I can't tell you specifically, but I believe that was one of the theories.
And do you remember in connection with that theory the notion that the blood drops were located to the left of the bloody footprints?
I am going to object and instruct him not to answer. What he learned in court is irrelevant and immaterial to any issue in this case.
Well, if you heard it after-- No. I am going to instruct him not to answer that.
Well, I don't think it's irrelevant because it may also explain why there is a change in his police statement.
Were you ever--Strike that. Did you ever think about the idea that you had cut your left finger and that there were reports that the murderer was bleeding from his left extremity as he was
leaving the murder scene?
On the 13th after you watched TV for about an hour or an hour and a half, you went upstairs. Is that right?
Yeah, whatever time it was. I don't think I used hour and a half, but whatever time I watched TV, then I went upstairs, yes.
Do you recall people screaming at the TV or yelling at the TV upon hearing various news reports?
Well, saying something to the TV to the effect that That's not true " or, oj you know, "That's false," things of that nature?
Okay. Did you hear anyone say anything in response to a news report that implied that the news report was false?
When you say you don't recall, is it possible you had a conversation with him and you don't recall the conversation?
Everybody--not everybody, but numerous people I recall came up to say good night to me, that they were leaving, and he could have been one of those people.
Okay. Do you have a recollection as you sit here today of Ron Shipp coming into your bedroom?
Do you have a conversation--Strike that. Do you have a recollection as you sit here today of talking with Ron Shipp while you were upstairs?
Do you have a recollection as you sit here today of having any conversation at all with Ron Shipp as of June 13?
I knew he was there and like everyone else, you know, they spoke to me from time to time, and I knew he was there.
Okay. Do you have a recollection as you sit here today having some conversation with Mr. Shipp?
Okay. When you say "he spoke" to you, do you have a recollection of the subject matter of the conversation that you had?
As you sit here today, do you have recollection of anything that you talked about with Ron Shipp on June 13, 1994?
Do you recall having any conversations with Mr. Shipp at all concerning thoughts that you had about killing Nicole?
With respect to the events of June l2th that we have gone through and you've gone through for some period of time, are there any periods of time for like an hour or longer where you have absolutely no memory of what you did, where you blacked out?
No, forget about sleeping. Where you were awake, alert, where you believe you may have blacked out for some reason.
I know I was always awake. I don't know how alert I was, but I was certainly awake all -- you know.
Okay. l am not talking about when you're asleep. I am just talking about -- let's just take the 12th, for example. Do you recall -- after 6:00 o'clock, between 6:00 and 12:00 on June 12. Do you recall any occasions where you just blacked out for an hour, where you just don't remember what you did for a solid hour?
For an hour? No, I don't think so. I think I may have--when I first got back, maybe from 2:00 to 5:00 I may have dozed once in a while, but I'm not sure because I was reading my book and the TV was on, and I may have dozed during that period of time.
In the five years before Nicole's death, do you recall any occasions where you became so angry with her or under any circumstances where you simply blacked out a particular event?
Has that ever happened to you in any context, where you have lost your memory for an appreciable period of time?
If he has a systemic condition that somehow causes him to have memory loss or blackouts--
Thank you, Doctor, thank you very much. The last time I heard you got a medical degree will be the next time, and he is not going to answer the question.
Let me ask it this way: Do you have to your knowledge any medical condition that causes you to have a memory loss?
Do you have any medical conditions that you're aware of that causes you to have a diminished capacity to recall significant events?
Other than what he just testified to, that he was awake and asleep and awake and asleep?
Did you have any conversations with anyone on the morning, say between 12:00 o'clock p.m. and 6:00 o'clock a.m. on the -- between the 13th and 14th?
I don't know what you mean by 12:00 o'clock p.m. Do you mean midnight and 6:00 a.m.?
Conversations, no. My sister -- I may have had a word with my sister during that period of time, but it wouldn't have been a conversation.
Okay. The following day, on the 14th, you've already described a trip that you took with Mr. Kardashian to get your golf clubs. Right?
And then during the course of the trip, we also got--during the course of driving around, we did pick up my golf clubs.
Okay. I am not going to go back through it. I just want to highlight the fact that you've already testified about that. Right?
Okay. Do you recall what else you did that day, not just--Strike that. Do you recall what time you left Kardashian's house?
Well, did you leave Kardashian's house on the morning of the 14th or your house to go get the golf clubs?
Well, then we drove, and then during the course of driving around we did stop at the airport, yes.
Now, after the murder of Nicole, you offered--you made an offer, a public offer of half a million dollars, I believe, for any information leading to the names or identities of individuals involved in the murders. Is that correct?
Don't answer that. We are not going to get into any more questions about that. Or you can go into all the questions you want; he's not going to answer.
Do you know whether anyone called in with information that implicated anyone else in the murders?
Do you know whether any information has been stored or preserved relative to leads or information that came in?
When Mr. Kaelin testified at his deposition, he described a process where you and he went to the eastern -- one of you went to the eastern portion of the pathway or in that direction and the other to the western portion of the pathway to look back behind you. Do you recall that?
Do you recall any occasion on the 12th where you and Mr. Kaelin agreed that you would go around to the pathway and look down there to see what was the source of the noises that he described to you?
Do you recall ever actually moving towards -- making any affirmative effort to move towards the pathway to look down to see whether you could determine the origin of the noises that he described?
I tried at one point when I was coming back from the Bronco. I did look, but it was dark, and that's when we talked about getting a flashlight.
Yeah, and I was coming back, and they were -- I guess they were talking about flashlights at the time.
Okay. Just so my question is on the record, this is when you went out to the Bronco to get the telephone case?
No. As I was walking back, l could see it was dark there, and I said, "well, let's" -- "you go one way and I'll go around the other way.' It was at the time -- Yes. I said, "You go one way and I'll go the other way," and that's when he made a comment about flashlights, and that's what initiated all the flashlight stuff.
And after that, other than making a comment, did you ever then go to either side of the pathway to look down to see whether you could determine the origin of the noises that he referred to?
When I was coming back from the Bronco, he was standing --they were like in the front there. I can't tell you exactly where they were. Kato was still talking about going around the side, and as I was coming back, I was talking to him, and I said something about, "You go one way and I'll go the other way," and that's when I became aware that there was a real flashlight problem.
Okay. And then after you went through the flashlight episode, trying to locate a flashlight, you came out and got into the limousine?
The '89 incident that you've described in some detail during the course of this deposition, you indicated that that altercation or the "harassing," as you've described it, was basically an effort on your part to get Nicole out of the bedroom. Is that fair?
No. She actually ran out of the house. No, I didn't rassle her to get her out of the house.
Okay. There were a couple episodes where she came into the bedroom and you rassled and got her out, and then she came back in and you rassled to get her out again. Is that correct?
Okay. Did it start with the conversation and escalate to an argument and escalate further to an altercation?
Yeah, I believe. I don't know a conversation, but it started -- pretty much started off as an argument.
She went out. I locked the door. She evidently went downstairs and got a key and came back in, and that's when the wrestling portion--
I came downstairs at one point because my alarm went blank, and she was smoking a cigarette at the back door, and when she saw me, she went out back.
You know, if a door or something is open, it goes blank, no color at all. Green if it's off and not engaged, red if it's engaged, and nothing if there's a door open or something.
I don't know, but the--there was a door open somewhere, something was open somewhere, and the alarm signal showed that.
Well, what I am trying to find out is: Was the door open during the period where the alarm was activated, or was the alarm deactivated and then the door was --
Doesn't your alarm have an audible noise that is made if a there is a door open during an activated period?
When I saw her, I wasn't really coming towards her. I was just trying to observe things. And when she went out the back door, I went upstairs and got a robe, and then I came out and went out the back door.
As I told you, when I saw her, she went out the back door and I went upstairs and got a robe, and then I came back downstairs and went out the back door.
She wouldn't have at that point, because I never saw her with mud on her until I saw the pictures.
Okay. Do you know how she got the mud on her that you indicated was depicted in the photographs?
During any of the rassling that you were engaged in during the '89 incident, did you ever take her face and push it into a wall?
Well, it's only carpet in that -- well, in her -- I believe so. I don't know if we got into her bathroom at all, because as you get to the door, she has a hard floor there. But, yeah, there's carpet throughout the house. I would think so.
Do you know--Strike that. Do you have any information that any of the bruises that were apparent after the '89 incident were self-inflicted by Nicole?
And you've indicated on a number of occasions that you have taken responsibility for those bruises. Is that correct?
And do you mean by that statement that you have taken responsibility that you caused them?
If I caused them or if they happened when she fell. I think was the genesis of it all. So if it happened anywhere, I take responsibility for it.
Have you ever seen any reports or information wherein she described her location when she fell?
When the police came in connection with the '89 incident, you spoke with the police officer. Right?
Did you believe at the time that you spoke with the police officer that there was a possibility you were going to be arrested?
Did you believe that at the time you spoke with the police officer you may have committed a crime?
While you were -- Strike that. While the police officer was present at Rockingham, you got in your car and left. Is that true?
Did he ever indicate to you a desire to have you come down to the police department to provide further information relative to this incident?
Did you ask if the police officer had completed his investigation before you got in your vehicle and decided to drive away?
On the '93 incident, you indicated that you were-- you went over to Nicole 's unannounced. Is that true?
I'm sorry. Backing up. With the Keith Zlomsowitzh-- I am talking about the 911 call. Earlier when you went over to Nicole's where Keith Zlomsowitzh was present you went over there unannounced. Is that true?
You're totally confused. I don't ever recall Keith Zlomsowitzh being anywhere near Nicole's house in 1993.
It's a pathway. You walk up the driveway, you turn right a little bit and you turn left and walk to her front door.
Okay. And the -- can you describe where the front window is in relationship to that pathway?
To enter the front of the house, would you ordinarily enter the pathway that you just described?
Okay. And if you entered in the front as you just described, would you be able from the pathway to look into the front window inside her house?
Would you have to make some affirmative effort to go around and look inside the window to see inside the house?
I walked by this window which is in the front of her house, but it's not one of her front windows. It walks right along the path as you approach the front door. It's about six feet from the front door, and you can see right into the living room.
I was on the pathway approaching the front door, and I saw her head, and I looked and saw she was obviously engaged.
And you were able to see that without making any affirmative effort to look inside the window?
Once I saw her head, I stepped towards and saw that she was obviously engaged, and then I left.
And when you saw her head, what was it about her head that caused you to move more towards the window to get a better look inside?
Yeah, it was like -- it was a spontaneous thing. It wasn't like you're not talking about a lot of time here. You know, it's like if you're walking, sometimes I would have -- if she was just sitting there, I would have hit the glass and she would have -- I wouldn't have had to -- I didn't want to ring the door bell. l didn't want to wake anybody. So if she was just sitting there, I would have hit the glass, and she would have come and opened the door, but when I looked and I saw she wasn't just sitting there, I left.
The--your relationship with Mr. Kardashian, he has been a friend of yours for a number of years. Is that true?
And you indicated that a number of years ago you had actually utilized his legal services. Is that true?
He wasn't a guy I saw often, but if I had to list best friends, I would have listed him in my list of best friends, yes.
In the last five years before Nicole's death, did you have any business relationship with Mr. Kardashian?
After June 994 at some point did you consult with Mr. Kardashian in a professional capacity?
Okay. And when you say "Almost immediately," when was the first time you ever contacted Mr. Kardashian with a view towards either asking him something or telling him something that you l considered to be within the context of an attorney-client relationship?
I didn't have to contact him. He came. He came to the house. And I know --I don't want to discuss what I talked about with him on the 13th, but I kinda relied on him a little bit from that point on.
No. I talked to him, I'm sure, on the 12th that night, but I wasn't in much of a mood to have conversations. I mean--
The 12th-- I mean the 13th. It wasn't really like--I know we had made arrangements to go to his house--we may have made arrangements. We may have done it the next morning. I'm not totally sure. But I think I was just a person who was reacting to things on the 13th, and then on the 14th I know specifically -- you know, I sorta asked for his help, and he was there for me.
--are you referencing some discussion you had with Mr. Kardashian that was within the context of an attorney-client communication?
Well, how about at that point? Not now, but on the 14th when you talked to Mr. Kardashian, were you talking to him with a view towards either -- telling him something that you considered to be confidential?
Your knowledge that he was a lawyer and your desire to have some of his information or knowledge.
Okay. And did you have any conversations with him at all while he was at your house on the 13th?
Okay. And on the 13th do you recall, for example, having any discussions with Mr. Kardashian about luggage?
Do you recall having any discussion with Mr. Kardashian on the 13th with respect to your whereabouts on June 12, 1994?
Do you recall having any discussions with Mr. Kardashian on the 13th concerning your possible involvement in the deaths of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson?
Did you know whether Mr. Kardashian was a licensed lawyer in the State of California at the time that you spoke with him on the 14th in connection with seeking legal advice?
On the 13th when you spoke with Mr. Kardashian, did you have any discussions whatsoever that relate to the facts and circumstances of Nicole's death?
You have no recollection at all as you sit here today of speaking with Mr. Kardashian one way or the other--
Do you recall at some point terminating the attorney-client relationship you had with Mr. Kardashian--
-- in connection with this case? Well, do you still consult with Mr. Kardashian in connection with this case?
Well, Have you communicated with Mr. Kardashian in connection with this case in the last two weeks --
Have you sought the legal services of Mr. Kardashian with respect to any other matter other than this case since June 12, 1994?
"This case" being which case? The civil case? The criminal case? The facts surrounding--
Well, you won't let me ask about any of it, so just--the whole case, meaning--
Okay.
BY MR. BREWER: --both cases that relate to the death of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson. Other than any work that he did in connection with this case for you and any conversations or communications you had in connection with this case, have you had any other opportunities wherein you have retained him since June 12, 1994?
Okay. I want to set aside any legal relationship you had with Mr. Kardashian arising out of the murders of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson, and my question is: Since June 12, 1994, have you retained Mr. Kardashian in connection with any other matters?
Retained. I have not paid him a retainer. I have relied on him on some issues that stem from this case and -- yes.
My whole life has been issues relating to this case since this--since it's been over, and there's been numerous things, and some of the things that Bob has been an adviser on.
Okay. Is there anything that you would consider to be separate and distinct from this case or ancillary issues related to this case wherein you have retained the services of Mr. Kardashian or spoke with him in an effort to obtain legal advice?
My life has been this case, so I haven't talked to virtually anybody about any other thing, so the answer would be -- I don't know what the answer would be because I don't know what the question was again.
Other than this case or ancillary issues related to this case, have you had any discussions with Mr. Kardashian seeking his legal counsel concerning any other matters?
Okay. You indicated in earlier examination that you had discussed or denied your involvement in the murders with Mr. Cowlings. Do you recall that?
You had testified in earlier examination that in a discussion with Mr. Cowlings, you had denied any involvement in these murders. Do you recall that?
Have you ever had a discussion with Mr. Cowlings concerning whether you were involved in any way in the murders of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson?
Prior to June 12, 1994 did you ever attend any services where Mr. Greer, Reverend Greer, was a minister or pastor?
And as part of being a Baptist, does that include any process where you go through a confessional?
I think he's almost non-denomination. I think he's a guy who preaches the message to just about anyone that -- I can't say anyone that would listen. I know he speaks a lot. He travels a lot and speaks a lot.
As you sit here today, do you have any understanding with respect to whether he has any affiliation with a recognized religion?
I think his affiliation--I believe he has some credentials. I've never asked him about those, but I think in court that came out. I believe his affiliation is with the Lord through Jesus Christ, and that's what he preaches.
Okay. Is that the name of the religion, or is that just how he interacts with people that he sees, that he is somebody who is talking to them through the Lord Jesus Christ?
Well, I think anyone who has any religion in their life knows that the Lord Jesus Christ is Christianity, so I think that would be the name of the religion.
Do you know whether Reverend Greer as part of his religious affiliation has as part of it confessions?
And in fact the only recognized -- in fact, you don't know of a recognized religion that he is affiliated with. Is that a fair statement, as you sit here?
No. I just told you he's affiliated with Christianity, Christian. The Lord Jesus Christ is what he's affiliated with.
Christianity is what it is. And I believe even though I was raised Baptist, that's the way I see it also.
When did you first learn of Reverend Greer's religious affiliation? Is it before or after he came to your jail?
And in the course of talking with Reverend Greer, did you give him -- did he have a confession for you?
No. The only thing we talked about was our belief in the Lord Jesus Christ. There was nothing to confess except my belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Okay. And what I mean by confess. I'm not necessarily--about confessing to committing murders, but having a confession where you absolve yourself of sins as a part of this experience with Reverend Greer.
So during any -- Strike that -- At all times when you were meeting with Reverend Greer you had knowledge that there would be a deputy in close proximity to where you were meeting?
And were there any walls or doors to your knowledge that separated the location of this guard that you knew about from you and Reverend Greer?
During any of these occasions where you spoke with Reverend Greer while you were in jail, did you ever actually see the guard standing there as you were having a discussion?
Standing would have been the exception, but see the guard, standing and/or sitting, would have been the rule.
Okay. So generally speaking, you would have some visual contact with the guard as you were communicating with Reverend Greer?
And after you had completed your discussions with Reverend Greer, would you then tell the guard that you were done?
Did you believe that when you were communicating with Reverend Greer, that your communications were private?
So the fact that a guard was sitting there and possibly could hear your communications didn't matter to you?
I don't know what I considered them to be. I just never thought of thinking, here, I could hear them; I could hear them in the hall. I assumed they could hear me.
So when you say, "I could hear them," you're talking about the guards or deputies?
And you assumed that given the fact that you could hear them, that they could hear you as you were talking with Reverend Greer?
And I assume that we were being bugged, so I assumed that also, but that was an assumption.
Okay. And so then I take it that at all times while you were having discussions with Reverend Greer, you didn't assume that any of those discussions were confidential.
You want to change the tape? We will go off the record here.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 2 of Volume VIII. The time is approximately 3:36, and we are off the record.
Mr. Simpson, on June 17 while you were inside your Bronco, did you ever speak with your mother by cellular phone?
Where is the crescendo? We've got to ask him the Rosey question. Come on. Come on, you can't waste 30 minutes on that.
I like my Mercury Morris line of questions. That went real far, didn't it.
The same trip where you were in the Bronco heading to Nicole's grave, you indicated there was a police car blocking the entrance. Do you recall that?
Was it a police car or some other -- some type of security service that was blocking the entrance?
Okay. When you say you "don't believe so" do you have some recollection that you may have?
Okay. You're fairly certain you did not speak with Sydney and Justin from your Chicago hotel room on the 12th?
You have no recollection of talking with Jonah Wilson on the way back from Chicago as you sit here today. Is that true?
And you have no recollection of talking with Arnelle at Jonah Wilson's house as you sit here today. Is that true?
Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 3:57.
I know I'm the...number one target. And now you're telling me I got blood all over the place.
If -- if it's dripped it's what I dripped running around trying to leave.
I didn't have a basis really to believe it was mine.
Bob Baker for OJ. Simpson, held hostage, Day 8.
I didn't feel it. Did I read all of it?