A.C. Cowlings Deposition — Day 4

📄 A.C. Cowlings Deposition — Day 4

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C:\DEPT103\DEPOSITIONS\A-C-COWLINGS\DAY-4.DOC

◀ A.C. Cowlings Day 3 Cora Fischman Day 1 ▶

Deposition of A.C. Cowlings

Day: 4 • Date: Wednesday, May 15, 1996 • Examinations: 6 • Utterances: 3,442

Examination Rounds:

1 Direct examination of Allen Cowlings by Daniel Petrocelli 2660 2 Direct examination of Allen Cowlings by Michael Brewer 111 3 Direct examination of Allen Cowlings by Daniel Petrocelli 6 4 Direct examination of Allen Cowlings by Michael Brewer 49 5 Direct examination of Allen Cowlings by Daniel Petrocelli 4 6 Direct examination of Allen Cowlings by Michael Brewer 612

1 Direct examination of Allen Cowlings by Daniel Petrocelli

Examiner: Daniel Petrocelli • Type: direct • 2660 utterances

🛡️ Dan Leonard 👤 Donald Re 📜 Daniel Petrocelli 📜 Michael Brewer

Petrocelli examines A.C. Cowlings across a wide range of topics: his post-arrest investigation of the back alley behind Kato's room, his outreach to Nicole's friends (Robin Greer, Cici Shahian, Cora Fischman), the Shapiro media-control meeting, the Marcus Allen/Nicole affair, and Cowlings' own movements on June 12. Cowlings is largely evasive — deploying 'I don't remember' relentlessly, particularly around recent contact with Marcus Allen, and asserting attorney-client privilege for all post-murder conversations with Simpson. A redacted exhibit (207) conceals the identity of a potential defense financier Shapiro wanted Cowlings to approach.

# 1 (SEE NEXT PAGE FOR COMPLETE CAPTION)

# 2

ALLEN COWLINGS, having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:

# 3 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Daniel Petrocelli for plaintiff Fredric Goldman.

# 4 MICHAEL BREWER:

Michael Brewer for plaintiff Sharon Rufo.

# 5 DAN LEONARD:

Daniel Leonard for O.J. Simpson.

# 6 DONALD RE:

Donald Re for Mr. Cowlings.

# 7

EXAMINATION

# 8

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 9 Q:

Mr. Cowlings, good morning.

# 10 A:

Good morning.

# 11 Q:

You are still under oath. You understand that?

# 12 A:

Yes.

# 13 Q:

Have you reviewed the prior deposition transcripts?

# 14 A:

No.

# 15 Q:

Have you done anything to prepare for today's deposition?

# 16 A:

No.

# 17 Q:

Have you spoken to anyone about your deposition since the last session on April 26?

# 18 A:

My attorney.

# 19 Q:

Other than Mr. Re?

# 20 A:

No.

# 21 Q:

Have you spoken to anyone about this case other than Mr. Re?

# 22 A:

No.

# 23 Q:

Have you spoken to O.J. Simpson?

# 24 A:

I spoke to him, yes.

# 25 Q:

When did you speak to O.J.?

# 26 A:

About two weeks ago. It was on a Sunday afternoon. I went by his house.

# 27 Q:

Did you talk about this lawsuit?

# 28 A:

No.

# 29 Q:

Purely social?

# 30 A:

Truly social.

# 31 Q:

I want to go back over something you testified to previously and clarify it a bit. You said that you had gone behind Kato's room with an investigator to check it out for yourself. Do you recall that?

# 32 A:

No. I said I he wanted me to meet him there to take him to show him the area. I had been there back there by myself beforehand.

# 33 Q:

Okay. And you did not recall the name of the investigator?

# 34 A:

No.

# 35 Q:

You said it wasn't You did not think it was Bill Pavelick; right?

# 36 A:

No, it wasn't Bill. He worked for Bill Pavelick.

# 37 Q:

Was it McNally?

# 38 A:

I wouldn't know.

# 39 Q:

Dresden?

# 40 A:

I wouldn't know.

# 41 Q:

Hosteller?

# 42 (Witness shakes head.)

# 43 Q:

None of those names mean anything to you?

# 44 A:

It doesn't mean anything.

# 45 Q:

Did you check for blood spots or traces of blood when you went back there with the investigator?

# 46 A:

I looked at the area and nothing stood out.

# 47 Q:

And it is fair to say that you were looking at the area to see if it was possible whether Mr. Simpson could have climbed over the fence, bumped into the wall, dropped a glove, to see if that scenario were possible; is that a fair statement?

# 48 A:

Yes, I would say.

# 49 Q:

And you noticed that the fence back there has some sharp edges on the top?

# 50 A:

The investigator pointed it out.

# 51 Q:

And pointed out that it is possible that someone could cut their finger on the top of the fence going over; right?

# 52 A:

No, he didn't say that.

# 53 Q:

But you observed the fence, and you observed for yourself that if one were trying to jump that fence, particularly at night when you could not see, you could cut your finger, could you not?

# 54 DONALD RE:

Are you asking him to speculate as to whether

# 55 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Well, based on what he observed, whether that is something that could reasonably occur.

# 56 DAN LEONARD:

I am going to object. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 57

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 58 Q:

You can answer.

# 59 A:

The thought didn't enter my mind.

# 60 Q:

That a person could cut himself or herself?

# 61 A:

The thought did not enter my mind.

KEY QUOTE

# 62 Q:

That thought did not enter your mind?

# 63 A:

That thought did not enter my mind. I was back there just looking.

# 64 Q:

Did you look at the top of the fence to see what kind of edges

# 65 A:

I looked at the whole area.

# 66 Q:

Including the top of the fence; right?

# 67 A:

I looked at the fence.

# 68 Q:

And what did you see when you looked at the fence?

# 69 A:

A fence about six feet in height.

# 70 Q:

And what kind of material was the fence constructed out of?

# 71 A:

It looked like a wire fence with a rail that ran across the top.

# 72 Q:

Now, Mr. Cowlings, was the fence six feet from the ground to the top of the fence, would you approximate?

# 73 A:

I didn't look at the ground as far as how tall exactly how tall the fence was. It seemed like it was just as high as me.

# 74 Q:

Standing on Mr. Simpson's property; right?

# 75 A:

It seems, yes.

# 76 Q:

And you think the fence went about as high as you, and you are about six-five; right?

# 77 A:

Taller I am probably taller than the fence, but it was pretty tall.

# 78 Q:

Approximately six feet?

# 79 A:

It could have been.

# 80 Q:

At any time did you try to climb that fence on that occasion

# 81 A:

No.

# 82 Q:

with the investigator? Did you try to go over to the Salinger property?

# 83 A:

No.

# 84 Q:

And did he try to climb the fence?

# 85 A:

Not while I was there.

# 86 Q:

Do you know whether he has ever tried to do so, this investigator?

# 87 DONALD RE:

Objection.

# 88 DAN LEONARD:

Lack of foundation.

# 89 DONALD RE:

The investigator?

# 90 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 91 DAN LEONARD:

Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 92 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have no idea.

# 93

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 94 Q:

Did you at any time on your prior visit back there try to climb that fence?

# 95 A:

No.

# 96 Q:

Or go onto the Salinger property on either visit, did you do that?

# 97 A:

No.

# 98 Q:

At any time since June 12, 1994 have you gone onto the Salinger property?

# 99 A:

No.

# 100 Q:

Did you and the investigator discuss what might have caused the sounds Kato Kaelin heard?

# 101 A:

No.

# 102 Q:

Did you fall against the wall to see what kind of impact was made?

# 103 A:

I think he hit the wall.

# 104 Q:

He hit the wall?

# 105 A:

Uh-huh.

# 106 Q:

Is it a concrete wall?

# 107 A:

It is like that stucco stuff.

# 108 Q:

Stucco?

# 109 A:

Uh-huh.

# 110 Q:

Did you go inside while he stayed outside to see if noises could be heard?

# 111 A:

No.

# 112 Q:

Or vice-versa, did he go inside while you stayed outside?

# 113 A:

No.

# 114 Q:

So you did not do any experiments, in other words?

# 115 A:

No.

# 116 Q:

And you have never done that; right?

# 117 A:

No.

# 118 Q:

And you are not aware of anybody who has; right?

# 119 A:

Not to my knowledge.

# 120 Q:

Refresh me again. What was the timing of this inspector visit

# 121 A:

I have no

# 122 Q:

to the back alley?

# 123 A:

I don't remember.

Q : It was after Mr. Simpson's arrest; right?

KEY QUOTE

# 124 A:

Yes.

# 125 Q:

Within weeks, would you say?

# 126 A:

I really don't remember.

# 127 Q:

And the time you went there alone was when again? Late night?

# 128 A:

It could have been a week after. A few days.

# 129 Q:

After Mr. Simpson's arrest

# 130 A:

A few days after.

# 131 Q:

or after Nicole's murder?

# 132 A:

A few days afterExcuse me?

# 133 Q:

A few days after what?

# 134 A:

You said what?

# 135 Q:

You said it could have been a few days, and I said after Mr. Simpson's arrest or after Nicole's murder.

# 136 A:

After O.J.'s arrest.

# 137 Q:

That you went back the first time; right?

# 138 A:

Uh-huh.

# 139 Q:

Alone; right?

# 140 A:

Uh-huh.

# 141 Q:

You have to answer with a yes or

# 142 A:

Yes.

# 143 Q:

Did you report back to anyone about your investigation of that area when you did it the first time?

# 144 A:

I think I spoke to Donald about it.

# 145 Q:

Back in June of '94?

# 146 A:

When I went back there the first time.

# 147 Q:

So Mr. Re was your lawyer back then; right?

# 148 A:

Yes.

# 149 Q:

Do you know whether Mr. Re in turn talked to anybody about your looking at that back alley?

# 150 DONALD RE:

Well, I am going to have a problem with that. If you exclude any knowledge which he may have derived from conversations which he had, I suppose the question is okay, but I don't know how else he could have come by any such knowledge if there was any such knowledge; but I am asking him not to answer any question based upon anything that we talked about as being within the attorney-client privilege.

# 151 DAN LEONARD:

I also have an objection. It calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 152

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 153 Q:

You can answer.

# 154 DONALD RE:

What was the question?

# 155 A.C. COWLINGS:

What was the question?

# 156 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Do you want to read it back.

(The record was read as follows:

"Q: Do you know whether Mr. Re in turn talked to anybody about your looking at that back alley?")

# 157 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have no knowledge.

# 158

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 159 Q:

Is Mr. Re the only person that you spoke to about looking over the back alley?

# 160 DONALD RE:

Other than you folks.

# 161

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 162 Q:

Other than at this deposition, yes.

# 163 A:

I don't remember.

# 164 Q:

Did you tell Mr. Shapiro?

# 165 A:

I don't remember.

# 166 DONALD RE:

By the way, you said the back alley, are you still referring to

# 167 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I am talking about that

# 168 DONALD RE:

the area

# 169 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

path behind Kaelin's room.

# 170 Q:

You understand that; right?

# 171 A:

Yes.

# 172 Q:

You say you do not recall. Can you positively rule out that you told Mr. Shapiro or others besides Mr. Re about this?

# 173 A:

I don't remember.

# 174 Q:

So you cannot rule it out, in other words; right?

# 175 A:

I don't remember.

# 176 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative, calls for speculation.

# 177

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 178 Q:

I mean, you might not remember but you may be able to say, "I know I didn't talk to the man in the moon."

# 179 A:

I don't remember.

# 180 Q:

You don't remember one way or the other; is that what you are saying?

# 181 A:

I don't remember.

# 182 Q:

And you had a lot of conversations with Robert Shapiro following Mr. Simpson's arrest; right?

# 183 A:

I don't remember. I doubt it.

KEY QUOTE

# 184 Q:

Well, you went to his house one time?

# 185 A:

That was one meeting, yes.

# 186 Q:

And then you went to this big meeting at Shapiro's office where all of Mr. Simpson's close friends had been assembled; right?

# 187 A:

Right.

# 188 Q:

And it was at Mr. Shapiro's behest that you went out to talk to a number of Nicole's friends; right?

# 189 A:

No. He called me one evening and wanted to speak to Nicole's friends.

# 190 Q:

And he asked you to go see them?

# 191 A:

No. I went to go see them before all of this, before I even before he even called me. I took it upon myself to go and talk to them.

# 192 Q:

When you went to see Nicole's friends, and I think you mentioned people like Robin Greer and Cici Shahian and Kris Jenner among others?

# 193 A:

Who?

# 194 Q:

Kris Jenner.

# 195 A:

No, I never spoke to Kris Jenner.

# 196 Q:

Excuse me. I may have misspoken. You spoke to Cici Shahian; right?

# 197 A:

Cici, yes.

# 198 Q:

And Robin Greer; right?

# 199 A:

Right.

# 200 Q:

Christian Reichardt?

# 201 A:

I spoke to him on the phone when I called Faye. It was for a few minutes, and it was nothing in detail talked about because he said

# 202 Q:

Cora Fischman; right?

# 203 A:

Cora Fischman I spoke with.

# 204 Q:

And you did not speak to Kris Jenner; is that right?

# 205 A:

No.

# 206 Q:

So Robin, Cora, Cici, anyone else?

# 207 A:

Robin, Cora, Cici.

# 208 Q:

What about Pam Schwartz? A: No.

# 209 Q:

Those three people?

# 210 A:

Those three people. I attempted to speak with Faye but her boyfriend said that she was not able to talk. The doctor told her or whatever, she was under some type of care. Her lawyer advised her not to speak to anybody.

# 211 Q:

Do you know who that lawyer was?

# 212 A:

I have no knowledge.

# 213 Q:

Mr. Cowlings, when you went to Cici, Robin, and Cora, are you saying that you did this on your own?

# 214 A:

Yes.

# 215 Q:

Nobody asked you to do that?

# 216 A:

No.

# 217 Q:

And your purpose was to find out information about what Nicole was doing in the last weeks and days of her life?

# 218 A:

Somewhat and see what type of people that was around.

# 219 Q:

Did you report that information to anyone after you spoke to those persons?

# 220 A:

There was no information to obtain.

# 221 Q:

So the answer is you did not?

# 222 A:

No.

# 223 Q:

And you did not write up any memos or anything like that; is that right?

# 224 A:

No.

# 225 Q:

Did you tape-record any of these conversations?

# 226 A:

No.

# 227 Q:

As a result of talking to Cora Fischman, Cici Shahhn, and Robin Greer, did you find out any information that identified in your mind a suspect for the murder of Nicole?

# 228 A:

No.

# 229 Q:

Did you as a result of talking to Cora, Robin, and Cici, obtain any information that provided any leads to identifying Nicole's killer?

# 230 A:

No.

# 231 Q:

Now, what was the visit to Shapiro's house about?

# 232 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 233 A.C. COWLINGS:

I need to talk to you for a minute.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 9:02.

# 234 (Discussion held off the record.)

# 235 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 207 was marked for identification by the reporter and was retained by counsel.)

# 236

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 237 Q:

Mr. Cowlings, off the record you have requested that I keep this person's name out of the transcript, and I have agreed to do so; so I will refer to the person whose name is listed on Exhibit 207 as "the person." Is that acceptable to you?

# 238 A:

Yes.

# 239 Q:

Thank you. And this exhibit will be omitted from the

# 240 DONALD RE:

Public record.

# 241 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

from the transcript, and we will just keep it in our possession as we have done with a number of other exhibits.

# 242 DONALD RE:

All right.

# 243

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 244 Q:

Now, I was asking you about your conversation with Shapiro, I guess, within a short time after Mr. Simpson's arrest.

# 245 A:

I don't know exactly what time it was. I know I met with him.

# 246 Q:

You do not know how many days or weeks

# 247 A:

No, I don't.

# 248 Q:

after it was?

# 249 A:

No, I don't.

# 250 Q:

And what was that conversation about?

# 251 A:

Concerned about my well-being, discussed in general the where the possibility of some help for O.J. was going to come from, and then he showed me a fight video of himself boxing some contender.

# 252 Q:

And that had nothing to do with O.J. Simpson's case; right?

# 253 A:

He wanted me to see it.

# 254 Q:

What I am trying to understand is that did it have anything to do with your discussion about Mr. Simpson's case?

# 255 A:

That was part of the meeting, I guess. He wanted me to see it.

# 256 Q:

A boxing video?

# 257 A:

Yes.

# 258 MICHAEL BREWER:

Inspirational.

# 259

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 260 Q:

And the financial help that Mr. Shapiro was talking about was from the person whose name you listed on the exhibit?

# 261 A:

Yes.

# 262 Q:

Was it 207? 207. Did you agree to go talk to this person?

# 263 A:

He wanted to meet with him.

# 264 Q:

And did you set that meeting up?

# 265 A:

Yes.

# 266 Q:

Were you there?

# 267 A:

At the beginning.

# 268 Q:

And who else was present besides Mr. Shapiro and the person and you?

# 269 A:

I have no knowledge.

# 270 Q:

Do you have any recollection of what was discussed?

# 271 A:

No.

# 272 Q:

And then you left after the beginning of the meeting?

# 273 A:

I left at the beginning of the meeting, and I came back later on when the meeting was over.

# 274 Q:

And do you know whether that person listed on Exhibit 207 ever did contribute any money to the defense of Mr. Simpson?

# 275 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 276 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 277

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 278 Q:

Have you had any contacts with that person regarding this case, the criminal or the civil case for the murder of Nicole other than at that meeting?

# 279 A:

We have seen each other since then.

# 280 Q:

And I am only concerned, understand me, about any discussions you have had with this person regarding the murder of Nicole.

# 281 A:

We discussed the murder of Nicole.

# 282 Q:

On a number of occasions?

# 283 A:

Yes.

# 284 Q:

And can you recount those discussions to me?

# 285 A:

Just how sorry and how bad a situation it is.

# 286 Q:

And beyond that did you and that person discuss anything else?

# 287 A:

No.

# 288 Q:

Such as Mr. Simpson's responsibility for the murders?

# 289 A:

No.

# 290 Q:

Or any of the evidence that was being amassed in the case?

# 291 A:

No.

# 292 Q:

And did that person share with you any observations that he made of Nicole and specifically whether he ever saw any bruising or marks on Nicole during her lifetime?

# 293 A:

No.

# 294 Q:

Did you and that person ever have any conversations about whether or not Nicole had a relationship with Marcus Allen?

# 295 A:

No.

# 296 Q:

In your discussions with this person did they take place one on one just the two of you as opposed to in groups or with other persons present?

# 297 A:

Most of the time we see each other, sometimes we are alone, sometimes we are not.

# 298 Q:

And again, focusing only on the conversations that you have had about O.J. Simpson's case, have you had other discussions with this person in the presence of others?

# 299 A:

I don't remember.

# 300 Q:

You attended a meeting at Mr. Shapiro's office with a number of Mr. Simpson's friends in attendance; correct?

# 301 A:

Yes.

# 302 Q:

Including this person that we have been discussing; right?

# 303 A:

Yes.

# 304 Q:

And did you participate in contacting friends and colleagues of Mr. Simpson to arrange their participation or attendance at this meeting?

# 305 A:

No.

# 306 Q:

Who asked you to attend?

# 307 A:

I was called by Shapiro's office.

# 308 Q:

By Shapiro himself?

# 309 A:

It could have been his assistant, it could have been him.

# 310 Q:

Were you explained the purpose of this meeting?

# 311 A:

He wanted me there. Why he wanted the other people there I have no knowledge of.

# 312 Q:

And he did not tell you why he wanted you there?

# 313 A:

No.

# 314 Q:

How long were you there?

# 315 A:

I don't know. I don't remember.

KEY QUOTE

# 316 Q:

What was discussed at that meeting?

# 317 A:

Basically I guess he wanted to control what was being said to the media, and he didn't want none of the parties to talk about talk to the media.

# 318 Q:

Was there also conversation about not talking to others besides the media?

# 319 A:

I don't remember.

# 320 Q:

You do not remember one way or the other; is that right?

# 321 A:

I don't remember.

# 322 Q:

You do not remember that they talked about it?

# 323 A:

I don't remember. All I remember is he wanted to tell everybody just to, you know, not to talk to the press.

KEY QUOTE

# 324 Q:

That's the only thing you recall being discussed at this time?

# 325 A:

Yes.

# 326 Q:

And how long were you there?

# 327 A:

I don't remember.

# 328 Q:

Following that meeting did you maintain contact with a number of the people who attended that meeting in regard to Mr. Simpson's case?

# 329 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 330 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember.

# 331

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 332 Q:

Is it fair to say that a number of the people who attended that meeting were also friends of yours?

# 333 A:

Yes.

# 334 Q:

Do you remember all the people who were there?

# 335 A:

No.

# 336 Q:

Do you remember Who do you remember that was at that meeting?

# 337 A:

It has been a while. I don't remember exactly who was there.

# 338 Q:

Is there anybody that you can identify based on your current recollection who attended that meeting?

# 339 A:

The man's name that is on that list we came together.

# 340 Q:

Besides the two of you. Mr. Shapiro was there; right?

# 341 A:

He was there. I can't remember.

# 342 Q:

You cannot remember anybody else?

# 343 A:

No.

# 344 Q:

Now, you also previously testified that Shapiro and you had another conversation about your excuse me about his talking to Nicole's friends. Do you recall that?

# 345 A:

Can I hear the question again.

# 346 Q:

Yes. I believe you previously testified earlier this morning that Shapiro and you had a conversation about his desire to talk to Nicole's friends?

# 347 DAN LEONARD:

I am going to object. That is the third time that that question has been asked. Is this a foundational question? It was asked in one of the other sessions. You just asked it this morning, and now you are asking it again.

# 348 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Is that an objection?

# 349 DAN LEONARD:

Yes, it is.

# 350 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

# 351 DAN LEONARD:

I think

# 352 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

You have made it.

# 353 DAN LEONARD:

Yes.

# 354 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Can you repeat the question.

(The record was read as follows:

"Q. I believe you previously testified earlier this morning that Shapiro and you had a conversation about his desire to talk to Nicole's friends?'")

# 355

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 356 Q:

Do you recall that?

# 357 A:

Yes.

# 358 Q:

And you had already on your own, as you previously testified, spoken to Nicole's friends, the three that you mentioned; right?

# 359 A:

Yes.

# 360 Q:

Now, after Shapiro talked to you about this, did you do anything to get Nicole's friends in touch with Mr. Shapiro?

# 361 A:

We went on three way, and I dialed the three individuals from my phone, and he left a message on their either answering service or voice-mail to call him.

# 362 Q:

This was a telephone call that you had with Shapiro?

# 363 A:

He called me.

# 364 Q:

He called you. And then you tried to contact each of these three people and were unable to make human contact with any of them; is that right?

# 365 A:

Right.

# 366 Q:

And did they ever call you back?

# 367 A:

No.

# 368 Q:

And do you know whether they ever spoke to Shapiro?

# 369 A:

Don't know.

# 370 Q:

Did you ever have any further conversations with those three friends of Nicole after your initial discussions with them concerning Nicole's murder?

# 371 A:

No.

# 372 Q:

Have you ever seen Mr. Simpson bleed at Bundy, at Nicole's Bundy condominium?

# 373 A:

No.

# 374 Q:

Did he ever tell you that he cut himself or had deposited blood or dropped blood at any time at Nicole's condominium?

# 375 A:

No.

# 376 Q:

And I'm not limiting myself to the evening of June 12. I mean at any time did he ever tell you that that occurred?

# 377 DONALD RE:

That he bled at any time?

# 378 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

That he cut himself at Nicole's condominium.

# 379 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not that I know of.

# 380

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 381 Q:

And do you know from any source whether or not Mr. Simpson ever cut himself at Nicole's condominium?

# 382 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 383 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 384

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 385 Q:

Do you have any information as to whether Mr. Simpson had cut himself at any time from, let's say, June 1 to June 12?

# 386 DONALD RE:

Well, I would interpose an objection if we are going to there is a certain area that we are objecting to conversations between Mr. Simpson and Mr. Cowlings, and if you want to ask the question in the general way, he will assert the privilege. If you want to ask it in a more limited way

# 387 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Well, foundationally, what is the first conversation that you are asserting this privilege with respect to?

# 388 DONALD RE:

I am asserting a privilege with regard to any inquiry which would involve his even answering as to whether there was a conversation on that subject matter during the period of time that we have been talking about.

# 389 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I would like to ask when is the first time that you ever spoke to O.J. Simpson after June 12 without regard to subject matter, just so that I can know that that is the beginning of this privilege. Right?

# 390 DONALD RE:

Well, he is going to assert the privilege as to when is the first time he spoke to him after June 12th.

# 391 MICHAEL BREWER:

The privilege begins when he returns to L.A. as I recall; isn't that right?

# 392 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes, when he returns to Los Angeles, when Mr. Simpson does.

# 393 DONALD RE:

I think It has already been established, I believe, that there were no conversations between the time of the murder and the time of his return.

# 394 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Between

# 395 DONALD RE:

Between Mr. Cowlings and Mr. Simpson. So now the question is when after that presumably was the first time that he spoke to Mr. Simpson.

# 396 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

After Simpson's return.

# 397 DONALD RE:

After Simpson's return. I think you can clearly see that there would potentially be conversations between that time and the time that they were both arrested, so any question along those lines I would advise him to assert the privilege to.

# 398 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

And is the privilege asserted, then, with respect to that question as phrased?

# 399 DONALD RE:

Just say "privileged" and that asserts the privilege.

KEY QUOTE

# 400 A.C. COWLINGS:

Privileged.

# 401

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 402 Q:

At any time prior to Mr. Simpson's return from Chicago to Los Angeles did you acquire any information that he had cut himself between, let's say, June 1 or June 12, 1994?

# 403 A:

I hadn't seen him. I wouldn't know.

# 404 Q:

You had spoken to him on the phone on, I think you said, June 7th right? when you were in Benders?

# 405 A:

I was in New York

# 406 Q:

You were in New York?

# 407 A:

and he was on the West Coast.

# 408 Q:

And that is the only telephone conversation you had with Mr. Simpson in the month of June prior to June 12; correct?

# 409 A:

Yes.

# 410 Q:

And you had not seen him at all from June 4 through June 12; correct?

# 411 A:

I don't remember.

# 412 Q:

So the only thing that you can remember now, then, between June 1 and June 12 is one conversation with him on the phone when you were in New York and he was in Los Angeles around June 7?

# 413 A:

Yes.

# 414 Q:

Now, you testified previously that you may have taken, I think, the children to or from Palm Springs in May of 1994. Do you recall that?

# 415 A:

If that was in '94, yes, I took them to Palm Springs.

# 416 Q:

Now, there has been testimony in this case that Mr. Simpson went to Palm Springs with Paula Barbieri on Memorial Day weekend 1994, which I think was May 29 and May 30. Is that the And to give you further information, Paula left the Palm Springs left Palm Springs on her own after having an argument with Mr. Simpson. Does that in any way refresh your recollection as to whether this was the Palm Springs trip that you took the kids to or from?

# 417 A:

I took the kids, got them out of school, took them to Palm Springs to meet O.J., and then I drove back to Los Angeles after I dropped them off and had lunch with them.

# 418 Q:

You mean Sydney and Justin; right?

# 419 A:

Right.

# 420 Q:

You picked them up from what school?

# 421 A:

From Sydney's school.

# 422 Q:

Carlthorp?

# 423 A:

Yes. On San Vicente. And Justin's Sunshine School up on Sunset.

# 424 Q:

And did you see Nicole when you picked up the children?

# 425 A:

I think I did.

# 426 Q:

Was Nicole Where was she when you saw her?

# 427 A:

To be honest, I don't remember. I don't remember if I saw her or not.

KEY QUOTE

# 428 Q:

So that I understand if we are talking about the same thing, is it your recollection that this was Mr. Simpson's visit to Palm Springs on Memorial Day 1994 that you did this for?

# 429 A:

It could have been.

# 430 Q:

Do you know for what purpose he had gone to Palm Springs?

# 431 A:

No.

# 432 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 433

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 434 Q:

Do you know whether it had anything to do with a birthday party for Allen Austin's wife Gail?

# 435 A:

No.

# 436 Q:

You don't know; right?

# 437 A:

No.

# 438 Q:

Do you know whether Paula Barbieri was with him or planned to be with him at this Memorial Day trip?

# 439 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound, calls for speculation.

# 440 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have no knowledge of it.

# 441

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 442 Q:

Do you know anybody who Mr. Simpson was with in Palm Springs when you took them there?

# 443 A:

No.

# 444 Q:

Was it La Quinta?

# 445 A:

I don't remember.

# 446 Q:

Do you remember the place where you took the children where Mr. Simpson was staying?

# 447 A:

When I took them, we took them to the Marriott.

# 448 Q:

In Palm Springs?

# 449 A:

Uh-huh.

# 450 Q:

That's a yes. And that was on a Friday?

# 451 A:

It could have been.

# 452 Q:

And do you know how the children got back?

# 453 A:

No.

# 454 Q:

On Monday, I guess it is May 31, 1994, Arnelle and Justin had a barbecue at Rockingham

# 455 DAN LEONARD:

Jason.

# 456

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 457 Q:

Jason and Arnelle had a barbecue at Rockingham according to prior testimony in this case. Did you attend that barbecue?

# 458 A:

No.

# 459 Q:

Do you know why Mr. Simpson did not take the kids himself to Palm Springs?

# 460 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 461 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 462

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 463 Q:

I am looking at a calendar for May of 1994 and Memorial Day weekend was May 28, May 29 and Monday was May 30. Is it your best recollection that you picked up the children on Friday, May 27?

# 464 A:

I don't remember.

# 465 Q:

Do you know when Mr. Simpson went to Palm Springs?

# 466 A:

No.

# 467 Q:

Do you know whether there was some event for the children that was going on that day that Mr. Simpson was unable to attend?

# 468 A:

No.

# 469 Q:

Did up make arrangements with Nicole to pick up the children?

# 470 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague as to time.

# 471 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

When he picked up the children.

# 472 DAN LEONARD:

Well, same objection.

# 473 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember.

# 474

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 475 Q:

And do you remember talking to Nicole either on the phone or in person about your picking up the children and taking them to Palm Springs?

# 476 A:

I don't remember.

# 477 Q:

Do you remember the last time you ever spoke to Nicole before her death?

# 478 A:

I don't remember.

# 479 Q:

That does not stand out in your mind?

# 480 A:

I don't remember.

# 481 Q:

And do you remember the last time you saw her?

# 482 A:

I don't remember.

# 483 Q:

Do you remember not so much the date but approximately when it was and where you were and what the circumstances were?

# 484 A:

I don't remember.

# 485 Q:

Did you visit Nicole while she was ill with pneumonia in the middle of May of 1994?

# 486 A:

I don't remember.

# 487 Q:

Did you know whether she was ill?

# 488 A:

I don't remember.

# 489 Q:

Did you have any conversations with Nicole in May or June of 1994 prior to her death about a dispute with Mr. Simpson concerning an IRS issue?

# 490 A:

No.

# 491 Q:

Did you have any conversations with Nicole in May or June of 1994 prior to her death about any kind of argument or dispute or conflict she was having with Mr. Simpson?

# 492 A:

No.

# 493 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, compound.

# 494

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 495 Q:

Did you have any conversations with Nicole in May or June of 1994 prior to her death about Mr. Simpson or her relationship with him?

# 496 A:

I don't remember.

# 497 Q:

Did you have any conversations with Mr. Simpson in May or June of 1994 prior to Nicole's death

# 498 A:

I don't remember.

# 499 Q:

about his relationship with Nicole?

# 500 A:

I don't remember.

# 501 Q:

Mr. SimpsonWithdrawn. You previously testified that you had been down to the Brown's for about 45 minutes or so on Mother's Day in 1994, which would have been May 8. Do you recall that?

# 502 A:

Yes.

# 503 Q:

And you testified that it was around that time that you learned that Mr. Simpson and Nicole's relationship was over. Do you recall that?

# 504 A:

He spoke about it.

# 505 Q:

Did he speak about this while the two of you were talking at the Brown residence?

# 506 A:

No.

# 507 Q:

Was this at the Laguna residence?

# 508 A:

Yes.

# 509 Q:

And was Nicole there when Mr. Simpson and you were talking? In other words, was she in the conversation?

# 510 A:

No.

# 511 Q:

And as best you can recall tell me what Mr. Simpson said about the end of his relationship with Nicole.

# 512 A:

No different than any other time. He just said that he felt it was over.

KEY QUOTE

# 513 Q:

You previously testified in substance that O.J. Simpson told you that it was over between him and Nicole, that you said "you gave it your best" and that O.J. responded it was over. Is that the gist of the conversation?

# 514 A:

Yes.

# 515 Q:

Did he explain to you what had led to this final breakup?

# 516 A:

No.

# 517 Q:

Did you ask?

# 518 A:

No.

# 519 Q:

Did youWithdrawn. Did he say anything to you about Nicole's behavior, Nicole's conduct, or anything that Nicole was doing that was causing a problem with him?

# 520 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, compound.

# 521 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have no knowledge.

# 522

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 523 Q:

In other words, did he express to you any dissatisfaction with Nicole in the way she was treating him or the way she was acting in this conversation?

# 524 A:

I have no knowledge of it.

# 525 Q:

Is this the last time that you spoke to Mr. Simpson about his relationship with Nicole?

# 526 A:

I don't remember.

# 527 Q:

Is this the last one that you do recall as you sit here today?

# 528 A:

I don't remember.

151 Q: Can you recall any other conversation with O.J. Simpson about his relationship with Nicolein May or June of 1994 other than this one that you just testified to in Mayon May 8, 1994?

KEY QUOTE

# 529 DAN LEONARD:

You are asking for all of May and all of June; is that what you are asking?

# 530 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No. Can you please repeat the question.

(The record was read as follows:

"Q: Can you recall any other conversation with O.J. Simpson about his relationship with Nicole in May or June of 1994 other than this one that you just testified to in May on May 8, 1994?")

# 531 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember.

# 532

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 533 Q:

It was after you had this conversation in the Laguna condo that you then went over to the Browns, as I understand it; right?

# 534 A:

Yes.

And while you were at the Laguna condo and while you were at the Browns, did you observe anydid you observe Mr. Simpson and Nicole interacting?

# 535 A:

They were sitting next to each other.

# 536 Q:

And did you observe any tension between them?

# 537 A:

No.

# 538 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 539

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 540 Q:

And did you have any conversation at all with Nicole about the breakup of her relationship with Mr. Simpson?

# 541 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 542 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember.

# 543

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 544 Q:

Did Nicole appear upset to you at any time that you saw her during that Mother's Day trip to Laguna?

# 545 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, vague.

# 546 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 547

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 548 Q:

You previously testified that you saw O.J. Simpson in Palm Springs with Paula, and Marcus Allen and Katherine were there for a golf tournament, and you brought the kids there, and you did not recall whether this occurred on Memorial Day of 1994?

# 549 A:

No, I don't remember.

When you did bring the kids to Mr. Simpson, is it your recollection that Paula was there?

KEY QUOTE

# 550 A:

Yes. She was in front of the Marriott.

# 551 Q:

And that Marcus and Katherine Allen were there also?

# 552 A:

Yes.

# 553 DAN LEONARD:

Can we take a very short break?

# 554 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 9:48.

# 555 (Recess taken.)

# 556

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 557 Q:

At any time during Mr. Simpson's divorce proceedings with Nicole did he tell you that Nicole had been investigating stories of abuse against him in order to obtain an advantage in the divorce case?

# 558 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound, lack of foundation.

HEWITNESS: I don't know anything about that.

# 559

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 560 Q:

Did you ever have any conversations with Mr. Simpson prior to Nicole's death about whether Nicole was making up stories of abuse by Mr. Simpson?

# 561 DAN LEONARD:

Same objection.

# 562 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have no knowledge of it.

# 563

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 564 Q:

Were you contacted by any lawyers or investigators or other representatives of Nicole or Mr. Simpson during their divorce case?

# 565 A:

No.

# 566 Q:

And you did not provide any information to anyone during their case?

# 567 A:

No.

# 568 Q:

Are youWithdrawn. Did you know that Mr. Simpson gave Nicole an agreement following the 1989 incident that if there were any other incidents of abuse she could void the prenuptial agreement?

# 569 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 570 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have no knowledge of that.

# 571

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 572 Q:

Did you have any conversations with Nicole about her wanting such an agreement or arrangement with Mr. Simpson?

# 573 A:

I have no knowledge of it.

# 574 Q:

You testified in the prior sessions of your deposition that following the 1981 incident when you encountered

Nicole

# 575 DAN LEONARD:

'89.

# 576 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Withdrawn.

# 577 DAN LEONARD:

You said '81..

# 578 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Withdraw.

# 579 Q:

You testified when you encountered Nicole on January 1, 1989 for following her altercation with Mr. Simpson that she told you how upset she was, how hurt she was, and how she wanted to get even with Mr. Simpson. Do you recall that?

# 580 A:

Yes.

# 581 Q:

Did she have any conversations with you at all about how she might get even with him?

# 582 A:

Not that I can remember. She was just pissed off. She was mad.

# 583 Q:

Did she say anything about wanting to get a new arrangement with Mr. Simpson on the division of property or on his prenuptial agreement with her?

# 584 A:

I have no knowledge of that.

# 585 Q:

Did she say anything to you about wanting to tell the media or the tabloids about what had gone on in their relationship as kind of a revenge against him?

# 586 A:

I have no knowledge of it.

# 587 Q:

Did you and she have any conversations about what impact on Mr. Simpson's career this incident might have if publicly disclosed?

# 588 A:

I have no knowledge of that.

# 589 Q:

Did you have any conversations with Mr. Simpson about that subject?

# 590 A:

No.

# 591 Q:

Are you aware of any of the discussions and negotiations between Mr. Simpson and Mr. Taft on the one hand and Nicole on the other hand concerning the amendment to their prenuptial agreement?

# 592 A:

No.

# 593 Q:

Prior to Nicole's death, do you think it is fair to say that Mr. Simpson had generally favorable relationships with the Los Angeles Police Department?

# 594 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague and calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 595 A.C. COWLINGS:

You would have to ask O.J. that.

# 596

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 597 Q:

Based on your knowledge, what was your opinion of his relationship with the LAPD, again, prior to Nicole 's death?

# 598 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

HEWITNESS: I never gave it any thought.

# 599

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 600 Q:

Did you know whether or not he had friends on the force?

# 601 A:

O.J. has a lot of friends.

# 602 Q:

Including who worked for IAPD?

# 603 A:

I don't know who they work for.

# 604 Q:

Were you aware of any friends of Mr. Simpson who were police officers?

# 605 A:

I don't know I don't know what half of O.J.'s friends do or the majority of them. I wouldn't now.

# 606 Q:

You knew Ron Ship was a friend of his; right?

# 607 A:

Yes.

# 608 Q:

And Mr. Ship is also a friend of yours?

# 609 A:

Yes.

# 610 Q:

And is he the only police officer who you know and can identify right now who was a friend of Mr. Simpson's?

# 611 DAN LEONARD:

I am going to object. It is vague as to time.

# 612 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Prior to Nicole's death.

# 613 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 614

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 615 Q:

Have you had any conversations with Ron Ship about Nicole's murder, Mr. Cowlings?

# 616 A:

No.

# 617 Q:

Not at any time?

# 618 A:

No.

# 619 Q:

You were at the Browns on the evening of the 13thcorrect? not at Simpson's house; right?

# 620 A:

Privilege.

# 621 Q:

You testified previously that you had a conversation at the home of the person whose name you identified on Exhibit 207 with Marcus Allen after Nicole's murder about the fact that his affair with Nicole might come out in the press. Do you recall that?

# 622 A:

Yes.

# 623 Q:

How did you know about his affair with Nicole at the time that you spoke to him?

# 624 A:

Privilege.

# 625 Q:

Well, let me ask you this: Prior to Nicole's death did you know about the affair?

# 626 A:

No.

# 627 Q:

Prior to Mr. Simpson's return from Chicago did you know about the affair?

# 628 A:

Privilege.

# 629 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I thought that was an area that was not carved out, Mr. Re?

# 630 DONALD RE:

He is asserting the privilege.

KEY QUOTE

# 631

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 632 Q:

Do you understand that I am asking you about a period of time before Mr. Simpson returned to Los Angeles?

# 633 A:

Is that what you are asking me?

# 634 Q:

Yes. So let me just repeat it one more time. Prior to Mr. Simpson's return to Los Angeles from Chicago on June 13, did you know about an affair between Marcus Allen and Nicole?

# 635 A:

No.

# 636 Q:

And after Mr. Simpson's arrest on June 17 did you have any conversations with anyone about an affair between Marcus and Nicole prior to the time you met with Marcus?

# 637 A:

I don't remember.

# 638 Q:

Can you tell me who the persons are that you spoke to about an affair between Marcus and Nicole?

# 639 A:

I don't remember.

# 640 DAN LEONARD:

Privilege.

# 641 DONALD RE:

Privilege. Are you talking about during

KEY QUOTE

# 642 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes. During the period you are going to take the privilege; right?

# 643 DONALD RE:

Right.

# 644 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay. So excluding the period. Any other persons.

# 645 DONALD RE:

We have used the period as sort of a general guideline. We have allowed you to go into certain things that happened within the period, but if he hasif you are including within that any conversations that he may have had, for example, with Mr. Simpson during that period of time, he would assert the privilege anyway

# 646 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Exactly.

# 647 DONALD RE:

so if you want to exclude

# 648 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

So I am excluding the period, going outside the period.

# 649 DONALD RE:

And you are excluding Simpson also?

# 650 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Any conversations that he might have had with Mr. Simpson on some day after that period.

# 651 DONALD RE:

He will assert a privilege to that.

# 652 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

About an affair between Marcus Allen and Nicole?

# 653 DONALD RE:

Yes.

# 654 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Have you been asserting that position consistently?

# 655 DONALD RE:

Yes.

# 656 MR.PETROCELLl:

In other words, all conversations with O.J. Simpson

# 657 DONALD RE:

Following the murders, yes.

# 658 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Following his return from Chicago?

# 659 DONALD RE:

No. All conversations with O.J. Simpson following the murders. It turns out that, you know, we have allowed you to explore the fact that there are no conversations until he returns from Chicago.

# 660 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Right. To the present?

# 661 DONALD RE:

Yes.

# 662 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Including after his release from jail?

# 663 DONALD RE:

Yes.

# 664 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

All of that is being excluded on the ground of the privilege?

# 665 DONALD RE:

Yes.

# 666 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Do we have a record of that?

I don't think so.

# 667 DONALD RE:

I don't think you ever asked.

# 668 MICHAEL BREWER:

I thought we got into that.

# 669 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I don't think so.

# 670 DONALD RE:

I don't think you ever asked anything specifically about a conversation that he had with Simpson.

# 671 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Then let me ask him now then.

# 672 DONALD RE:

Okay.

# 673

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 674 Q:

Following Mr. Simpson's arrest did you ever have any conversations with him about an affair between Marcus Allen and Nicole?

# 675 A:

Privilege.

# 676 Q:

Excluding O.J. Simpson?

# 677 A:

I don't remember.

# 678 Q:

Have you ever spoken to Katherine Allen about this?

# 679 A:

I don't remember.

# 680 Q:

Have you spoken to Marcus Allen about this other than on that one occasion shortly after Mr. Simpson's arrest?

# 681 A:

I don't remember.

# 682 Q:

When is the last time you spoke to Marcus Allen?

# 683 A:

I don't remember.

# 684 Q:

Have you spoken to him in the last 30 days?

# 685 A:

I don't remember.

# 686 Q:

Have you spoken to him in the last week?

# 687 A:

I don't remember.

# 688 Q:

Have you spoken to him about the fact that he was subpoenaed to testify in this case?

# 689 A:

I don't remember.

# 690 Q:

When was the last time that you saw Marcus Allen in person?

# 691 A:

I don't remember.

# 692 Q:

Have you seen him in the last 30 days?

# 693 A:

I don't remember.

# 694 Q:

In the last two weeks?

# 695 A:

I don't remember.

# 696 Q:

In the last week?

# 697 A:

I don't remember.

# 698 Q:

Did you see him yesterday?

# 699 A:

I don't remember.

# 700 Q:

Did you speak to him yesterday?

# 701 A:

I don't remember.

# 702 Q:

When was the last time you were in Kansas City?

# 703 A:

I've never been to Kansas City. I take that back. When I used to play ball I used to go to Kansas City. We played the Chiefs.

# 704 Q:

Have you been to Mr. Allen's home in Los Angeles in the last year?

# 705 A:

I don't remember.

# 706 Q:

Have you been to Mr. Allen's home within the last year in Missouri?

# 707 A:

I've never been.

# 708 Q:

Does Mr. Allen have a home outside of Los Angeles?

# 709 A:

I don't know.

# 710 Q:

You don't know?

# 711 A:

No.

# 712 Q:

Have you ever been to his home outside of Los Angeles?

# 713 A:

If he has, I don't know it.

# 714 Q:

What people do you know about this affair

# 715 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 716

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 717 Q:

excluding O.J. Simpson?

# 718 DAN LEONARD:

Lack of foundation.

# 719 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 720 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I asked him what people

# 721 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 722 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

he knows know about this affair.

# 723 Q:

That is, have told you about it, have mentioned it.

# 724 A:

I don't know.

# 725 Q:

Do you know whether Marcus Allen was with Nicole in the last 30 days of her life.

# 726 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 727 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 728

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 729 Q:

Do you know whether Mr. Allen saw Nicole at any time in the Last 30 days of her life?

# 730 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 731 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 732

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 733 Q:

Do you know whether Marcus Allen spoke to Nicole in the last 30 days of her life?

# 734 DAN LEONARD:

Same objection.

# 735 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 736

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 737 Q:

You testified that you saw Marcus Allen for the last time prior to Nicole's death on Sunday June 12 when you and he went to Thousand Oaks to inquireabout his purchase of a Hummer. Do you recall that?

# 738 A:

Yeah. Yes.

# 739 Q:

And priorWithdrawn. He called you at your home in the Palisades to see if you could go with him?

# 740 A:

Yes.

# 741 Q:

And prior to that day, which was a Sunday, when was the last time you had seen or spoken to Mr. Allen?

# 742 A:

I don't remember.

# 743 Q:

What did you do that Sunday on the 12th of June?

# 744 DONALD RE:

Are you talking about with Marcus Allen?

# 745 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No. From the time you got up.

# 746 Q:

Can you tell us what you did that day.

# 747 A:

I don't remember.

# 748 Q:

You previously testified that you went over to Mr. Simpson's house in the morning around 8:30. Do you recall that?

# 749 A:

Yes.

# 750 Q:

And what did you do when you went there?

# 751 A:

I was on my way to see a friend, and I forgot the address, so I pulled up to O.J.'s house to use the phone to call to get the correct address where I was going to meet my friend.

# 752 Q:

And you used the phone in the tennis court; right?

# 753 A:

Yes.

# 754 Q:

And what was the name of your friend?

# 755 A:

I don't remember.

# 756 Q:

Did you then go to see the friend?

# 757 A:

Yes.

# 758 Q:

Was it a man or a woman?

# 759 A:

I think it was a guy.

# 760 Q:

When you went to Mr. Simpson's tennis court, you got into the property by using your key?

# 761 A:

I could have.

# 762 Q:

The key you had was the master key that worked the outside gates; right?

# 763 A:

The gate and the front door.

# 764 Q:

The gate for which there was a key was the Rockingham gate; right?

# 765 A:

Yes.

# 766 Q:

And do you remember whether you used the key to get the Rockingham gate open, or do you remember whether you just pushed it open?

# 767 A:

I don't remember.

# 768 Q:

Do you remember whether the gate was operative in its automatic mode when you went in and out of the property on June 12?

# 769 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 770 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember.

# 771

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 772 Q:

You did not go inside the house; right?

# 773 A:

No.

# 774 Q:

Did you know whether the alarm was on?

# 775 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 776 A.C. COWLINGS:

No, I don't. I didn't know.

# 777

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 778 Q:

Is the reason you did not go inside the house but went to the tennis court was because the alarm was on and you did not have the security code?

# 779 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 780 A.C. COWLINGS:

No. I was just there to use the phone.

# 781

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 782 Q:

And that was the quickest way to get to a phone?

# 783 A:

Uh-huh.

# 784 Q:

You have to answer yes.

# 785 A:

Yes.

# 786 Q:

And that phone is located where on the tennis court?

# 787 A:

Right in the middle of the tennis court in a little cabana.

# 788 Q:

After you leftWithdrawn. What timeWithdrawn.

Where did you go after you left wherever you went with your friend?

# 789 A:

I think we went and had breakfast.

# 790 Q:

And then you went home?

# 791 A:

I don't remember.

# 792 Q:

Where were you when you received the call from Mr. Allen about getting together with him?

# 793 A:

I don't know if we had prearranged it the night before or he had called me that morning. I couldn't tell you.

# 794 Q:

Where did you meet him?

# 795 A:

I went by his house.

Q And you picked him up?

# 796 A:

Yes.

# 797 Q:

And drove in your white Bronco?

# 798 A:

In the Bronco, yes.

# 799 Q:

And then you went to Thousand Oaks together and then dropped him off at his house?

# 800 A:

Yes.

# 801 Q:

And do you know what time you left his house?

# 802 A:

No.

# 803 Q:

And do you know what time you got back?

# 804 A:

No.

# 805 Q:

And in that timeWithdrawn. How long were you together that day?

# 806 A:

I don't remember.

# 807 Q:

Did he buy a car?

# 808 A:

Did he buy who?

# 809 Q:

Did he buy a car that day?

# 810 A:

No, I don't think so.

# 811 Q:

Do you know what kind of car he had at that time?

# 812 A:

He had his Mercedes and his Testarossa.

# 813 Q:

Do you know what color his Mercedes was?

# 814 A:

Black.

# 815 Q:

Do you know what model it was?

# 816 A:

No.

# 817 Q:

Was it a big Mercedes?

# 818 A:

Two-door.

# 819 Q:

Two-door. Did it have a personalized license plate?

# 820 A:

I don't think so.

# 821 Q:

Do you know what the license plate was?

# 822 A:

No.

# 823 Q:

And in that time you spent with Marcus Allen on June 12 did you have any conversation about Nicole?

# 824 A:

No.

# 825 Q:

Did you have any conversation about Mr. Simpson's relationship with Nicole?

# 826 A:

No.

# 827 Q:

And did you have any conversation about Mr. Simpson?

# 828 A:

Not that I remember.

# 829 Q:

As of June 12, 1994 was Joe Stellini a friend of Mr. Simpson's to your knowledge?

# 830 A:

As far as I know, yes.

# 831 Q:

Was Joe Kolkowitz?

# 832 A:

You said Joe Kolkowitz?

# 833 Q:

Second name.

# 834 A:

As far as I know, yes.

# 835 Q:

Was Tom McCullum?

# 836 A:

Yes.

# 837 Q:

Was Alan Schwartz?

# 838 A:

Yes.

# 839 Q:

Was Louis Marx?

# 840 A:

Yes.

# 841 Q:

Mark Slotkin?

# 842 A:

Yes.

# 843 Q:

Marcus Allen?

# 844 A:

Yes.

# 845 Q:

Ron Ship?

# 846 A:

Yes.

# 847 Q:

Bobby Bender?

# 848 A:

Yes.

# 849 Q:

Allen Austin?

# 850 A:

Yes.

# 851 Q:

Mike Millitello?

# 852 A:

I haven't seen Mike. Mike lives on the East Coast.

# 853 Q:

Bob Kardashian?

# 854 A:

Yes.

# 855 Q:

Tom Kardashian?

# 856 A:

Yes.

# 857 Q:

The person's whose name you wrote on Exhibit 207?

# 858 A:

Yes.

# 859 Q:

Ricky Schulman?

# 860 A:

I don't know.

# 861 Q:

Craig Baumgarten?

# 862 A:

They played golf together.

# 863 Q:

Bob Hoskins?

# 864 A:

I think that is one of his golfing buddies.

# 865 A:

Donnie Sofer?

# 866 A:

I don't know Donnie.

# 867 Q:

Mark Packer?

# 868 A:

Yes.

# 869 Q:

Reggie McKenzie?

# 870 A:

Yes.

# 871 Q:

Ahmad Rashad?

# 872 A:

I don't know.

# 873 Q:

Bobby Chandler, was he alive as of June 12, 1994? He was; right?

# 874 A:

Yes.

# 875 Q:

And he was a close friend of Mr. Simpson's?

# 876 A:

Yes.

# 877 Q:

Is there anybody else that you believe was a close friend of Mr. Simpson's who I have just not named?

# 878 DAN LEONARD:

I am going to object. You are now changing the question. You used the word "friend" with reference to every one of those people except for Bobby Chandler, so now I am going to object to that question as it is framed.

# 879

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 880 Q:

You can answer.

# 881 A:

I am.

Q : You're right. Anyone else

# 882 A:

I don't know.

# 883 DAN LEONARD:

Same objection.

# 884

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 885 Q:

that comes to mind? Excuse me? You answered.

# 886 A:

Not that come to mind, no.

# 887 Q:

Mr. Simpson was not in your opinion crippled in May or June of 1994; is that true?

# 888 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation, calls for a conclusion.

# 889 DONALD RE:

When you say "crippled," are you talking about crippled to the point of not walking? Are you talking about any sort of

# 890

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 891 Q:

Would you use the word "cripple" in any way to describe him,

# 892 A:

He had very difficulties moving.

# 893 Q:

Have you ever used that word to describe him, crippled.?

# 894 A:

I don't know what I have used.

# 895 Q:

Difficulty moving in what way, Mr. Cowlings, as of May or June of 1994?

# 896 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague as to time, compound.

# 897 A.C. COWLINGS:

He'd complain.

# 898

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 899 Q:

Do you mean about sore knees?

# 900 A:

Knees, his joints.

# 901 Q:

Arthritis?

# 902 A:

Yes.

# 903 Q:

Is that what he would complain about?

# 904 A:

Yeah.

# 905 Q:

Did he complain about any other physical ailments or disabilities besides arthritis in, let's say, the last six months of Nicole's life?

# 906 A:

He complained. I mean he had difficulties in his joints, in his hands, his knees.

# 907 Q:

Anything else?

# 908 A:

There could have been other things. I don't remember.

KEY QUOTE

# 909 Q:

Have you ever been with O.J. Simpson when he was following Nicole someplace?

# 910 A:

No.

# 911 Q:

Or going to see if Nicole was at a restaurant or a bar or anyplace like that?

# 912 A:

No.

# 913 Q:

Have you ever gone with Mr. Simpson to see if Nicole was at her home, for example?

# 914 A:

# 915 Q:

Do you know whether Mr. Simpson ever followed Nicole in the last three years of her life?

# 916 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

HE WITNESS: I have no idea, no knowledge of it.

# 917

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 918 Q:

Do you have any knowledge of whether Mr. Simpson would ever go see if Nicole was at home while she was living in the Gretna Green or Bundy condominium?

# 919 DONALD RE:

You are talking about his personal knowledge? I mean, there have been reports on the news about various

# 920 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No. Things he knows, not what he has read in the newspaper. Whether he saw it or somebody told him, such as Mr. Simpson or Nicole, that kind of knowledge.

# 921 DONALD RE:

Okay.

# 922 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not that I know of.

# 923

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 924 Q:

And do you have any knowledge of Mr. Simpson trying to keep track of Nicole's whereabouts after they got divorced through the end of her life?

# 925 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 926 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not that I know of.

# 927

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 928 Q:

Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Simpson wanting to know who Nicole was going out with?

# 929 A:

No.

# 930 Q:

Where she was going?

# 931 A:

No.

# 932 Q:

Who she had over to her house?

# 933 A:

Not that I know of.

# 934 Q:

Do you have any knowledge of whether Mr. Simpson ever stalked Nicole?

# 935 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 936 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 937 DAN LEONARD:

Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 938

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 939 Q:

Do you have any knowledge of whether Nicole ever stalked Mr. Simpson?

# 940 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 941 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 942

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 943 Q:

Prior to Mr. Simpson's return from Chicago on June 13 did you have any knowledge that he had cut himself in any way?

# 944 DONALD RE:

Ever?

# 945 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No. Within the prior week.

# 946 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 947

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 948 Q:

Did you observe any cuts on Mr. Simpson's finger or any other place on his body when you saw him?'

# 949 DONALD RE:

He has taken a privilege to that period of time. You are talking about when he returned from Chicago?

# 950 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes. So you will take a privilege as to all observations that he made of Mr. Simpson?

# 951 DONALD RE:

Right.

# 952

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 953 Q:

Yesterday Robert Kardashian testified that some weeks after Mr. Simpson's arrest he called you to come over to his house and in the garage the two of you inspected Mr. Simpson's golfbag. Do you recall that incident?

# 954 DAN LEONARD:

I am going to object as lack of foundation.

# 955 DONALD RE:

To be consistent, I think because this has to do with an inspection of the golf bag, which apparently has something to do with the investigation that was conducted with regard to the murders, I am going to advise the witness to assert the privilege.

# 956 A.C. COWLINGS:

Privilege. MR. PETROCELLI: This occurred after this excluded period. It has nothing to do with the proceedings involving Mr. Cowlings at all.

KEY QUOTE

# 957 DONALD RE:

I don't know what the proceedings involving Mr. Cowlings has to do with except that when they talk about potential accessory after the fact, which was what the nature of the offense is, it could theoretically extend to looking for evidence or being with someone who is looking for evidence, so that I think to preserve

# 958 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Or talking to witnesses?

# 959 DONALD RE:

No.

# 960 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

There has been ample testimony about that.

# 961 DONALD RE:

No. But I don't think anybody has ever claimed that there has been any sort of accessoryship that has evolved because he talked to somebody. They are talking about some other avenues. I think that this one is close to the line, but I think to preserve the privilege I have to have him assert it.

# 962

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 963 Q:

Did you have any conversations with Mr. Kardashian aboutWithdrawn. Following Mr. Simpson's arrest did you have any conversations with Mr. Kardashian about Mr. Simpson's luggage?

# 964 DONALD RE:

Again, if it has to do with potential evidence in the criminal case, I think to be consistent, I have to ask him to assert the privilege so we do not get into

# 965 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

About inspectingabout his luggage?

# 966 DONALD RE:

Well, but the luggage people have made a big deal about the luggage as somehow having to do with the criminal case so I

# 967 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I am now only talking about conversations, talking to people. I did not ask about his physical conduct.

# 968 DONALD RE:

But theoretically those conversations, if they have to do with potential evidence, could fall within the ambit of that kind of investigation, so I have to advise him to assert the privilege.

# 969 A.C. COWLINGS:

Privilege.

# 970

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 971 Q:

Did you have any conversations with Robert Kardashian at all after Mr. Simpson's arrest concerning Nicole's murder?

# 972 DONALD RE:

Well, you are excluding now conversations regarding evidence, things of that nature?

# 973 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I am not excluding any conversations.

# 974 DONALD RE:

Then he will assert the privilege.

KEY QUOTE

# 975 A.C. COWLINGS:

Privilege.

# 976 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I don't really know what that means "regarding evidence." I really don't understand that at all. I mean, if you can clarify that for me. Are you basically not going to let him talk about conversations with Kardashian about the case, about Nicole's murder after Mr. Simpson's arrest?

# 977 DONALD RE:

Well, I think that, for example, if you have a conversation that deals with evidence, there is a privilege. If you have a conversation that deals with how wonderfulhow terrible it is that things have happened, that is probably not subject to the privilege, but you are not limiting the question, so since you are asking an open-ended question

# 978 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I don't know what you mean about the "evidence," because anything could be evidence, even the conversation that you just mentioned.

# 979 DONALD RE:

All right. Good point. Privilege. He will assert the privilege. He is going to assert the privilege to anything that could relate to notions of cover-up, which is I think part of the area that was discussed in the media and I think part of the area that you are driving at. Any of those areas he is going to have to assert the privilege to to be consistent, so based upon the question that you asked, I think he is asserting the privilege. I think he has asserted the privilege.

KEY QUOTE

# 980 A.C. COWLINGS:

Privilege.

# 981

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 982 Q:

Following I am not going to bother even to ask any questions whatsoever about what he did during the week of the 13th up to Simpson's arrest because that is all privileged; right?

# 983 DONALD RE:

So you are going to exclude all of that from your questioning?

# 984 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes, I am.

# 985 DONALD RE:

Okay.

# 986 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

But you understand that a record has been made on that?

# 987 DONALD RE:

Yes. That's fine.

# 988 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

And if we ever have this process again, that we will be able to ask any and all questions in that period of time.

# 989 DONALD RE:

I will agree that you have asked sufficient numbers of questions regarding that period of time

# 990 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

# 991 DONALD RE:

and that he has invoked the privilege, and you can be assured that if you ask any further questions along those lines, he would assert the privilege too.

# 992

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 993 Q:

And you adopt that, Mr. Cowlings?

# 994 DONALD RE:

Say "privilege."

# 995 A.C. COWLINGS:

Privilege.

# 996 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay. So I am just now going to focus after Simpson's arrest, then.

# 997 DONALD RE:

And we will assume that the questions that you are asking now, even though they do not explicitly say it, exclude the area of time that we have been talking about.

# 998 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Correct.

# 999 Q:

Did you conduct any kind of search for evidence having to do with Nicole's murder?

# 1000 DONALD RE:

He has to assert a privilege to that.

# 1001

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1002 Q:

Did you inspect any evidence concerning Nicole's murder?

# 1003 DONALD RE:

He has to assert a privilege to that.

# 1004

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1005 Q:

Did you talk to anyone about any evidence concerning Nicole's murder?

# 1006 DONALD RE:

He has to assert a privilege to that.

# 1007

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1008 Q:

Did you visit the Bundy crime scene?

# 1009 DONALD RE:

Well, when you say

# 1010 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

We have already talked about the visit during the week.

# 1011 DONALD RE:

Right. Excluding that visit?

# 1012 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes. When he came there to help pack with Lou Brown and all of that. I am after that period of time now.

# 1013 Q:

Did you ever go back to the Bundy crime scene?

# 1014 A:

No.

# 1015 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 1016 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 1017

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1018 Q:

You said previously that you had a garage door opener that Lou Brown had given you and that you had it for a couple of weeks. Do you recall that?

# 1019 A:

Yes.

# 1020 Q:

Did you have it in your car during that period of time or was it in your home?

# 1021 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. "Period of time"

# 1022 A.C. COWLINGS:

It was

# 1023 DAN LEONARD:

vague.

# 1024 A.C. COWLINGS:

at my home.

# 1025

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1026 Q:

It was at your house?

# 1027 A:

Yes.

# 1028 Q:

And then at some point in time you returned it to Lou Brown?

# 1029 A:

Yes.

# 1030 Q:

How did you return it to him?

# 1031 A:

I gave it to him in Laguna.

# 1032 Q:

You drove down there and gave it to him?

# 1033 A:

Uh-huh. Yes.

# 1034 Q:

And do you remember when that was?

# 1035 A:

No.

# 1036 Q:

Did you ever come into contact with Mr. Simpson's Louis Vuitton garment bag?

# 1037 DONALD RE:

Same assertion of the privilege.

KEY QUOTE

# 1038

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1039 Q:

Or his golf bag?

# 1040 DONALD RE:

Same.

# 1041

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1042 Q:

Or his black grip bag?

# 1043 DONALD RE:

Same.

# 1044

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1045 Q:

Or his O.J. Simpson silk suit bag?

# 1046 DONALD RE:

Same.

# 1047

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1048 Q:

Or any other item of luggage?

# 1049 DONALD RE:

Same.

# 1050 A.C. COWLINGS:

Privilege.

# 1051 MICHAEL BREWER:

May I ask one question just so that I am clear on something. What is the difference between these questions and the examination concerning the southern walkway where he is out there inspecting the walkway

# 1052 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

There isn't any.

# 1053 MICHAEL BREWER:

with the investigator

# 1054 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I didn't want to argue.

# 1055 MICHAEL BREWER:

I don't want to argue. I just want to know

# 1056 DONALD RE:

There is a substantial difference. The questions having to do with the walkway have nothing to do with any potential investigation being conducted by the police. The police are investigating issues concerning the luggage, concerning the clothes, concerning the Bronco ride, concerning things of that nature, so he asserted the privilege to all of those. We are - trying to let you go as far as we can and still maintain the privilege.

# 1057 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I am not going to even try to debate these issues. You are twisting the microphone.

# 1058 DONALD RE:

I'm not even touching it.

# 1059 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Oh, Mr. Cowlings. Who is?

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Mr. Cowlings.

# 1060 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

There is no point arguing about it. We will just figure it out later.

# 1061 DONALD RE:

Fine.

# 1062

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1063 Q:

Did you have any contact with Mr. Simpson's Bronco at any time after his arrest?

# 1064 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 1065 DONALD RE:

Same.

# 1066 DAN LEONARD:

Vague.

# 1067 DONALD RE:

Privilege.

# 1068

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1069 Q:

Did you have any contact with his Bronco at any time prior to his arrest?

# 1070 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague as to time.

# 1071 DONALD RE:

When you say "prior to his arrest?

# 1072 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 1073 DONALD RE:

you mean at any time prior to his arrest?

# 1074 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 1075 DONALD RE:

Privilege.

# 1076

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1077 Q:

Prior to Nicole's death when was the last time that you were in that Bronco, prior to Nicole's death on June 12, 1989?

# 1078 A:

I used it to

# 1079 MICHAEL BREWER:

You misspoke. It was 1994.

# 1080 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I am sorry. Withdrawn.

# 1081 Q:

Prior to Nicole's death on June 12, 1994 when was the last time that you were in the Bronco?

# 1082 A:

I used it toI put my car in the shop for service, and I used the Bronco.

# 1083 Q:

For how long?

# 1084 A:

I don't know.

# 1085 Q:

Do you remember when this occurred?

# 1086 A:

No.

# 1087 Q:

Was it days or weeks or months within Nicole's murder?

# 1088 A:

It could have been weeks; it could have been months.

# 1089 Q:

Do you have any explanation for why fingerprints matching yours were found on the Bronco door?

# 1090 DONALD RE:

Well, first of all, there is no indication that I have seen that those fingerprints have been on the door, and there is no way for him to know that, so I am going to instruct him not to answer the question.

# 1091 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

On what ground? Privilege?

# 1092 DONALD RE:

I don't thinkNo, it is not When you sayI don't know what fingerprints you are talking

about. There is no way to even answer that question. There is no factual basis to allow the witness

# 1093 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I am just asking what the objection is so that maybe I can cure it in my next question.

# 1094 DONALD RE:

That's the problem.

# 1095 DAN LEONARD:

My objection is that it lacks foundation.

# 1096

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1097 Q:

Do you have any knowledge at all, Mr. Cowlings, of anyone claiming that fingerprints matching yours were found on the Bronco?

# 1098 A:

I have no knowledge of it.

# 1099 Q:

And do you have any explanation as to why fingerprints matching yours might be found on the Bronco?

# 1100 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 1101 DONALD RE:

You mean any fingerprints anywhere

# 1102 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Anywhere on the

# 1103 DONALD RE:

anyplace on the Bronco?

# 1104 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

outside of the Bronco.

# 1105 DONALD RE:

Other than the fact that he drove the car a couple of weeks before?

# 1106 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I don't know when he drove the car. That's what I tried to find out.

# 1107 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 1108

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1109 Q:

You can answer.

# 1110 A:

Just when I used it.

# 1111 Q:

Did you wash the car?

# 1112 A:

No.

# 1113 Q:

And do you know how many days you used it?

# 1114 A:

It could have been a day.

# 1115 Q:

Your Bronco

# 1116 A:

A day-and-a-half.

# 1117 Q:

was brought in for what, a routine service?

# 1118 A:

Yes.

# 1119 Q:

Where did you bring it?

# 1120 A:

Ford dealership on Santa Monica in West LA., Buerge, I think.

# 1121 Q:

Right near Santa Monica Boulevard?

# 1122 A:

It is on Santa Monica Boulevard.

# 1123 Q:

Is that Walker Buerge?

# 1124 A:

Walker Buerge, yes, just west of Barrington.

# 1125 Q:

Were you informed about Sydney's recital and asked to attend it?

# 1126 A:

No.

# 1127 Q:

Were you ever told in advance that there would be a family dinner after the recital?

# 1128 A:

No.

# 1129 Q:

Did you know of any plans to go to Jackson's for dinner where Jason was working at the time as a cook?

# 1130 A:

When?

# 1131 Q:

Dinner after the recital on June 12.

# 1132 A:

No.

# 1133 Q:

You don't know

# 1134 A:

No.

# 1135 Q:

about any plans to do any of that?

# 1136 A:

No.

# 1137 Q:

I wanted to show you some photographs. The first one is a photograph of a document that has been previously marked as Exhibit 10. My question is: Is that your jacket?

# 1138 DONALD RE:

Wait a second before you answer this. For the record, are these items that were taken out of the Bronco? Is that what this is? I don't know what this is.

# 1139 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

They are items that were taken from all over the pieceRockingham, Mr. Simpson's room.

# 1140 DONALD RE:

Mr. Simpson's bedroom; is that what you are talking about?

# 1141 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Bedroom.

# 1142 DONALD RE:

At the house you are talking about?

# 1143 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Also Robert Kardashian's house.

# 1144 DONALD RE:

These are items that were seized by the police, though, is that what these photographs represent?

# 1145 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I don't know who they were seized by, to tell you the truth, and I don't know that they all were seized, but I think some of them certainly include items that the police had.

# 1146 DONALD RE:

For example, this GJ, does that refer to Grand Jury?

# 1147 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

It may well. My question is simply whether these are his items or not.

# 1148 DONALD RE:

As far as any items that were seized for evidentiary value by the police or were produced l as evidence for the Grand Jury he will assert the privilege, and it would appear that these items are such items.

# 1149 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Then I would like to ask him for each of these items whether they are his, they belong to him.

# 1150 DONALD RE:

And he will assert the privilege to each one. If you want to do it individually, go ahead.

# 1151 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

And I also want to ask whether prior to Nicole's death he had ever seen any of these items.

# 1152 DONALD RE:

He will assert a privilege to any questions having to do with any of the materials that were seized as evidence in the case.

# 1153 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Including when he first saw them?

# 1154 DONALD RE:

Yes. Any questions.

# 1155 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Or whether he even owned them?

# 1156 DONALD RE:

Any questions.

# 1157 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Why Well, it seems inconsistent with prior things that we have done, but we are not going to solve that here. For the record, then, I would like to ask a series of questions about what has been previously marked as deposition Exhibits 10, 11, 13, 14, 12, 16, 15, 18, 17, 19, 20, 21, 58, 57, 60, 59, 63, 62, 65, 64, 68, 67, 70, 69, 24, 25, 23, 26, 22, 173, and you can see that there are additional photographs of items of luggage, including golf shoes, and I would like to ask questions about all of these items.

Is it your position that none ofthat Mr. Cowlings will assert the privilege with respect to any conceivable question about any of these items?

# 1158 DONALD RE:

I would note, for example, on the first page, which has depo Exhibits 10 and 11

# 1159 A.C. COWLINGS:

I need to run to the rest room.

# 1160 DONALD RE:

Okay.

(continuing) there is a notation that it is Cowlings Grand Jury photos, so yes, clearly we will assert

# 1161 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Not all of them are in that category.

# 1162 DONALD RE:

I am telling you what it says here, Cowlings Grand Jury photos.

# 1163 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I know. You are pointing to some of them, and that is true, that is what the little tags that I put on them say.

# 1164 DONALD RE:

And then the next page says Grand Jury is on a pink tab regarding Exhibits 13 and 15. The yellow whatever this color is

# 1165 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I have already sufficiently identified them. We do not have to go through that. We have a record of them. We have xeroxes and they are attached as exhibits to these depositions.

# 1166 DONALD RE:

I am not clear that the actual stickers are part of the exhibits.

# 1167 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

The exhibit numbers are.

# 1168 DONALD RE:

The stickers that say GJ on them and Grand Jury? That is what I am making a record of.

# 1169 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

But it can be determined whether or not a particular exhibit attached to the depositions was a Grand Jury exhibit.

# 1170 DONALD RE:

All I am saying is that all of those stickers say GJ on them. Some of them say Grand Jury Exhibits Cowlings Exhibit Number

# 1171 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I simply want to know

# 1172 MICHAEL BREWER:

Your position is that you are going to assert a privilege on Grand Jury evidence that was seized in connection with the Grand Jury?

# 1173 DONALD RE:

Wait. Backing up. Then there are some others that say SID photos, these are Exhibits 58 and 57.

R.PETROCELLI: And they were not Grand Jury exhibits.

# 1174 DONALD RE:

What we have, then, is a booklet that consists of two categories of photos.

# 1175 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Or more.

MR. RE. That is what I am trying to establish.

# 1176 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Or more than two categories.

# 1177 DONALD RE:

Well, it appears that of all these photos they either say Grand Jury or SID, and those are both those both relate, then, to materials that were seized and some of which were introduced on the Grand Jury, the Cowlings Grand Jury; so yes, he is asserting a privilege to any questions regarding any of those items or all of those items.

# 1178 MICHAEL BREWER:

Even if they were not seized in connection with the Grand Jury investigation but in connection with the Simpson matter, then he would assert the privilege?

# 1179 DONALD RE:

Absolutely.

# 1180 MICHAEL BREWER:

Okay.

# 1181 DONALD RE:

But there is no way to tell from those documents for what purpose they were seized. It just says SID, which is the Scientific Investigation Division of the Los Angeles Police Department, so that means that they were seized and examined in the course of a criminal investigation.

# 1182 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I think your position has not been consistent because we have had a lot of other deposition testimony about other items of evidence in the criminal case. So I don't really understand the difference. Just because we have a photograph, doesn't make a difference in my view.

# 1183 DONALD RE:

If he is gone, I am going to go to the rest room, too.

# 1184 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 1185 MICHAEL BREWER:

Five minutes.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:36.

# 1186 (Recess taken.)

# 1187

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1188 Q:

Did you own a windbreaker prior to Nicole's death?

# 1189 DONALD RE:

Any windbreaker?

# 1190 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 1191 DONALD RE:

Ever?

# 1192 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No.

# 1193 Q:

Did you own at the time of Nicole's death a windbreaker?

# 1194 DONALD RE:

We will assert the privilege to that.

# 1195 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

So you would assert a privilege, then, as to whether he owned as of the time of Nicole's death

# 1196 DONALD RE:

In as much as you have already shown him photographs of windbreakers and asked him questions regarding that, yes.

# 1197 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

All items of clothing?

# 1198 DONALD RE:

All items of clothing.

# 1199

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1200 Q:

When you spoke to Mr. Simpson on the telephone on either June 7 or June 8

And by the way, would looking at a calendar refresh your recollection as to the date of

that call? This is one of Mr. Simpson's calendars, Exhibit 8-A.

# 1201 A:

That doesn't mean anything to me.

# 1202 Q:

I'm trying to figure out the day that you were in New York and he was in Los Angeles and you poke on the phone.

# 1203 A:

It was the week ofthe second week of June.

# 1204 Q:

That is as far as you can recall?

# 1205 A:

Yeah. It could have been Tuesday; it could have been Wednesday.

# 1206 Q:

And when Mr. Simpson went to New York, did you have any telephone conversations with him while he was there?

# 1207 A:

No.

t161Q: Did you call the Bender house and speak to him there?

# 1208 A:

I don't think so. I don't remember.

KEY QUOTE

# 1209 Q:

Your phone records show a call on June 8 to which I understand to be Mr. Bender's number?

# 1210 A:

Can we go off the record?

# 1211 Q:

Yes.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:45.

# 1212 (Discussion held off the record.)

# 1213 (Regarding page 933, line 20, it was agreed among counsel to remove the phone number from the record.)

# 1214 (plaintiffs' exhibit 208 was marked for identification by the reporter and was retained by counsel.)

# 1215 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

At your request I have agreed to not disclose in the transcript the phone number that I want to ask you about which we have put down on Exhibit 208.

# 1216 Q:

Do you see that number?

# 1217 A:

Yes.

# 1218 Q:

And the number on 208 is the phone number of your friend and Mr. Simpson's friend Bobby Bender?

rla1 A: Yes.

# 1219 Q:

And he has a home in Long Island, New York; right?

0: His wife is Robin Bender? A: Yes.

# 1220 Q:

And you spoke to Mr. Bender on June 8, which would have been a

# 1221 A:

Wednesday.

# 1222 Q:

Wednesday. Do you recall that? A: That is from myYou say that is on my phone record?

# 1223 Q:

I won't mention the phone number, but is this your phone number (indicating)?

# 1224 A:

Yes.

# 1225 Q:

Pointing to the phone number on this phone bill. That was your number at that time; right?

# 1226 A:

Yes.

# 1227 Q:

Is that still your number? A: No.

# 1228 DONALD RE:

Is the record on there, the phone call that you are talking about? MR. PETROCELLI: (Indicating.)

There is one to Bender's number on June 8 and there is one on June 12. Q: Do you see those? Do you want to look at them closely (proffers document).

# 1229 DONALD RE:

Okay.

# 1230 A.C. COWLINGS:

I can't find it. MR. RE: (Indicating.)

# 1231 A.C. COWLINGS:

Okay. This is June 12. This is June 8.

# 1232 (Discussion was held between the witness and his counsel out of the hearing of the reporter.)

# 1233 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

You don't have to type that.

# 1234 Q:

I just showed you a copy of your phone record from June of 1994 and it shows a call to Mr. Bender on June 8, which wasWhat did we say? Wednesday.

k Uh-huh.

# 1235 Q:

Do you recall speaking to Mr. Bender at that time?

# 1236 A:

I don't know if I spoke to him or I spoke with Robin.

# 1237 Q:

Did you speak toWithdrawn. Do you know why you called them on June 8?

# 1238 A:

I don't know. Maybe to thanked them for their hospitality.

# 1239 Q:

You had stayed there for a bit on your prior trip?

# 1240 A:

Yes.

# 1241 Q:

Did you speak to Mr. Simpson on June 8?

# 1242 A:

No.

# 1243 Q:

And do you know whether Mr. Simpson was et the Bender residence on June 8?

# 1244 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 1245 A.C. COWLINGS:

That I don't know.

# 1246

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1247 A:

No.

# 1248 Q:

Do you have any recollection as to when you called them onit looks like the morning of June 12 at 8:49?

# 1249 A:

No.

# 1250 DAN LEONARD:

WellNever mind. Does that indicate whether that is Pacific standard or Eastern standard time? Just for the record, when you say the morning

# 1251 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

It just says 0849.

# 1252 DAN LEONARD:

Okay.

# 1253 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Which is probably Pacific time, but I don't know.

# 1254 Q:

And you have no recollection of that call?

# 1255 A:

No.

# 1256 Q:

It also shows a call to the Cayman Islands, a 14 minute call on June 14. Who did you call there?

# 1257 DONALD RE:

June 14th?

# 1258 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes. We are in that period, so you are going to have to assert a privilege to it.

# 1259 A.C. COWLINGS:

Privilege.

# 1260

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1261 Q:

Was Marcus Allen staying in the Cayman Islands?

# 1262 A:

I don't know. He could have been.

# 1263 Q:

Did you know anybody Prior to Mr. Simpson's return from Chicago, did you know where Marcus Allen was headed to on his trip with his wife Katherine?

# 1264 A:

They were going to some resort toI don't knowplay golf or some NFL thing.

# 1265 Q:

In the Bahamas or the Caymans?

# 1266 A:

It could have been.

# 1267 Q:

And did you know anybody else in that area?

# 1268 A:

Huh-uh.

# 1269 Q:

He said no. You show some calls to the same number in the Caymans on June 16. Do you remember what that was about?

# 1270 DONALD RE:

Same privilege.

# 1271

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1272 Q:

On June 18 you show three calls to the Cayman Islands, same number. Do you remember who you spoke to on June 18?

# 1273 DONALD RE:

Same privilege.

# 1274 A.C. COWLINGS:

Privilege.

# 1275 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

This is outside the period. The arrest was on June 17.

# 1276 DONALD RE:

This is a call on June 18?

# 1277 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 1278 DONALD RE:

Go ahead.

# 1279 A.C. COWLINGS:

I can answer that?

# 1280 DONALD RE:

Yes.

# 1281 A.C. COWLINGS:

KeepingI guess I don't know. They didn't come back right away, so a lot of times they would call me and I would return their calls.

# 1282

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1283 Q:

Keeping Marcus and Katherine apprised of what was going on?

# 1284 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 1285 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know about keeping You know, just making contact with them. They were very concerned about what was going on.

# 1286

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1287 Q:

And they did not come back for the funeral or the viewing; right?

# 1288 A:

No.

Q : Is that correct?

# 1289 A:

Right.

# 1290 Q:

Focusing on the calls on the 18th, because you will not permit me to ask on the earlier calls, did you have any conversation with Marcus on these phone calls on June 18 about whether or not he had had a relationship with Nicole?

# 1291 A:

No.

Q : And since this bill only goes up to June 18, I don't know if there are any other calls, but do you remember if you made any other calls to the Allens or they to you subsequent to June 18?

# 1292 A:

Not that I remember.

# 1293 Q:

You used your home phone for business purposes in June and July of 1994?

# 1294 A:

Yes, at times I guess I did, if it shows it.

# 1295 Q:

Well, I am not saying that it does or doesn't. It shows a lot of phone numbers, and I am curious whether in particular for long distance calls did you ever use your home phone in June and July of 1994 for business purposes?

# 1296 A:

I could have. I don't remember, but I could have.

# 1297 Q:

Did you contact any persons in Washington the State of Washington, let's say, after Mr. Simpson's arrest regarding the murder of Nicole?

# 1298 A:

I could have returned some phone calls. The State of Washington, my friend Reggie McKenzie lives up there.

Q : In ?

# 1299 A:

If that is the area where he lives.

# 1300 Q:

And do you have a friend in Montana that you spoke to about Nicole's death?

# 1301 A:

I don't know.

# 1302 Q:

And you told us about the friend of yours in Brooklyn named Lisa Fisher at the last session of your deposition?

# 1303 A:

Uh-huh.

Q : Did you speak to her about Nicole's death?

# 1304 A:

No. A lot ofThese callsCalls like hers were people who had called me voicing their concern. I was returning their call.

# 1305 Q:

Did you have an answering machine at your house?

# 1306 A:

At the time, yes, I did.

# 1307 Q:

Did you save that tape?

# 1308 A:

No.

Q : Do you know whetherWithdrawn. You had testified previously about an incident when Nicole and O.J. got into a fight of some sort and she got her stuff and went off to Laguna and you helped her pack. Do you recall that?

# 1309 A:

Yes. I remember saying that.

# 1310 Q:

Do you know whether Nicole went off to Laguna after the 1989 incident?

# 1311 DONALD RE:

Do you mean if this incident you are talking about was after the '89 incident?

# 1312 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No. Different question now. I am simply asking whether he knows that she went off to stay in Laguna for a while following the January 1, 1989 incident.

# 1313 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 1314 DONALD RE:

Can I just ask for a clarification. You are asking for immediately after the '89 incident, you mean?

# 1315 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 1316 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember.

# 1317

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1318 Q:

Or shortly thereafter.

# 1319 A:

I don't remember.

# 1320 Q:

Do you remember if Nicole and O.J. were living apart for a while as a result of their altercation?

# 1321 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 1322 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember.

# 1323

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1324 Q:

You were questioned before about this incident in Hawaii where Mr. Simpson got upset concerning Justin's contact with a man who might be gay. Do you recall that?

# 1325 A:

Yes.

# 1326 Q:

Do you remember that Mr. Simpson changed everyone's tickets and reservations and required everyone to leave earlier than planned?

# 1327 DAN LEONARD:

Lack of foundation, objection.

# 1328 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 1329

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1330 Q:

Do you remember whether you left Hawaii earlier than originally planned?

# 1331 A:

I don't remember.

# 1332 Q:

Have you ever seen O.J. Simpson in your presence strike another person other than on the football field or participating in sports?

# 1333 A:

No.

# 1334 Q:

Did you ever see him behave irrationally to the point where you thought he was out of control?

# 1335 A:

No.

# 1336 Q:

Did you think he was out of control when he threw the clothes out of the window in the 1979 incident in San Francisco?

# 1337 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 1338 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know what control he was in.

# 1339

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1340 Q:

But in your opinion have you ever seen him act in such a way where you thought he was out of control?

# 1341 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative.

# 1342

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1343 Q:

Not whether he thought so but whether you thought so.

# 1344 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative, vague.

# 1345 A.C. COWLINGS:

I really didn't give it too much thought.

# 1346

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1347 Q:

Have you ever been in a situation with Mr. Simpson where you were concerned for his safety because he was so upset at another person?

# 1348 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound, vague, calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 1349 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 1350

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1351 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 1352 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 1353

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1354 Q:

Or you were concerned that he might do harm to somebody?

# 1355 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 1356 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 1357

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1358 Q:

Did you know a man named Keith Zlomsowitzh?

# 1359 A:

No.

# 1360 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson prior to Nicole's death ever inform you about an incident where he had observed Mr. Zlomsowitzh and Nicole having sex together?

# 1361 A:

No.

# 1362 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson prior to Nicole's death ever inform you of any incident where he encountered Nicole with another man either in her home, in a restaurant, or any other place?

# 1363 A:

No.

Q : You gave previous testimony about Nicole's 911 call in October of 1993 where you heard the voice of Nicole and O.J. Simpson. Do you recall that incident?

# 1364 A:

Yes.

# 1365 Q:

Do youWithdrawn. Were you informed about this incident at or about the time that it occurred?

# 1366 A:

I can't remember. I don't think so, but I can't be sure.

# 1367 Q:

Is the first time that you learned about it was when it came out in the court case?

# 1368 A:

Yes.

# 1369 Q:

Do you remember a National Enquirer article that came out about O.J. Simpson in 1993?

# 1370 A:

I don't read the National Enquirer.

# 1371 Q:

Did it ever come to your attention that such an article appeared about Mr. Simpson?

# 1372 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague as to time.

# 1373 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 1374

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1375 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson in 1993 express any displeasure to you about a National Enquirer article about him?

# 1376 A:

I don't remember.

# 1377 Q:

You have no knowledge of that?

# 1378 A:

I don't remember.

# 1379 Q:

Do you know who a Burton Kittay is?

# 1380 A:

Burton Kittay?

# 1381 Q:

Yes.

# 1382 A:

No.

# 1383 Q:

Do you know whether Mr. Simpson saw a therapist following the 1989 incident?

# 1384 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 1385 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have no knowledge of that.

# 1386

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1387 Q:

He never discussed that with you?

# 1388 A:

No.

# 1389 Q:

Do you know whether he saw a therapist in 1994?

# 1390 A:

I have no knowledge of it.

# 1391 Q:

Does the name Barry Michaels mean anything to you?

# 1392 A:

No.

# 1393 Q:

You gave some testimony about an incident when Mr. Simpson told you that Nicole threw a picture either at him or out of the car, and you also said Nicole told you about that. My question to you is: When did thatWhen were you told about that incident?

# 1394 A:

The day it happened.

# 1395 Q:

And do you recall the year?

# 1396 A:

No.

# 1397 Q:

Can you give me an approximation?

# 1398 A:

No.

# 1399 Q:

Both Mr. Simpson and Nicole told you about it the day it happened?

# 1400 A:

Yes.

# 1401 Q:

Were you there when it happened?

# 1402 A:

No.

# 1403 Q:

You saw them later on that day?

# 1404 A:

I was on the phone with him. He had called his house. I was on the tennis court playing tennis, and as I was speaking to him Nicole pulled up in her car.

# 1405 Q:

Based on all of the time that you have known Mr. Simpson and known Nicole, would you say that he was a jealous man when it came to Nicole?

# 1406 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 1407 A.C. COWLINGS:

What do you mean by "jealous"?

# 1408

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1409 Q:

Was he jealous towards her or of her?

# 1410 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, calls for speculation, compound.

# 1411 A.C. COWLINGS:

He was not jealous of her.

# 1412

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1413 Q:

Jealous towards her in the sense that if other men gave her attention or she gave other men attention it would upset him in your presence?

# 1414 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 1415 A.C. COWLINGS:

I never saw that.

# 1416

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1417 Q:

Did you have an opinion as to whether or not he was jealous when it came to Nicole?

# 1418 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation, calls for a conclusion.

# 1419 A.C. COWLINGS:

When you say jealous

# 1420

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1421 Q:

Beyond what someone might ordinarily be, is what I am getting at.

# 1422 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 1423 A.C. COWLINGS:

What is "ordinary"?

# 1424

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1425 Q:

Did you in your own thinking and mind form the view that Mr. Simpson was jealous

# 1426 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 1427

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1428 Q:

when it came to Nicole?

# 1429 DAN LEONARD:

Vague, lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 1430

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1431 Q:

Did you have that opinion?

# 1432 A:

He loved her.

# 1433 Q:

But did you have the opinion that he was jealous?

# 1434 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Same objections.

# 1435 A.C. COWLINGS:

When you say "jealous," jealous of what?

# 1436

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1437 Q:

Let's say that a man would say "hello" to her in a bar and he would fly off the handle and get upset.

# 1438 A:

I never saw that.

# 1439 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 1440

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1441 Q:

Did you think he was overly jealous, let's put it that way?

# 1442 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 1443 A.C. COWLINGS:

I never saw it.

# 1444

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1445 Q:

Did you think he was overly possessive when it came to Nicole?

# 1446 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 1447 A.C. COWLINGS:

I never saw it.

# 1448

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1449 Q:

And did you believe and have the view that he was overly controlling when it came to Nicole?

# 1450 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 1451 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 1452

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1453 Q:

You testified previously that in your conversation with Cora Fischman following Mr. Simpson's arrest she told you that Marcus Allen and Nicole had been friends?

# 1454 A:

Yes.

# 1455 Q:

Did she tell you when Marcus Allen and Nicole had been friends?

# 1456 A:

No.

# 1457 Q:

Based on your conversations with Cora, Robin, or Cici, did you find out if Marcus Allen and Nicole had been seeing one another in the last few months of Nicole's life?

# 1458 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, compound, vague, lack of foundation.

# 1459 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 1460

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1461 Q:

I have a couple of questions for clarification about this incident in 1989 when you went over to the house and found the keys at Mr. Simpson's request. Did you understand that Mr. Simpson had driven one of Allan Schwartz's cars over to Rockingham and when he got to Rockingham had dropped the keys someplace?

# 1462 A:

Yes.

# 1463 Q:

And how did Mr. Simpson then get back from Rockingham to Schwartz's house without the keys?

# 1464 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 1465 A.C. COWLINGS:

That I don't know.

# 1466

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1467 Q:

Were these keys to the car that he had driven or other keys?

# 1468 A:

Keys to the car.

# 1469 Q:

And was there a car of Schwartz's there when you went back to find the keys?

# 1470 A:

Yes. His black Buick was parked down the street.

# 1471 Q:

And you already had a car that you used to drive there; right?

# 1472 A:

Yes.

# 1473 Q:

And so when you drove back to Schwartz's, you drove back in your car and not Schwartz's b3ack car; right?

# 1474 A:

No. I think I took Schwartz's car back.

# 1475 Q:

And then you came back to pick up your car after on?

# 1476 A:

Yes.

# 1477 Q:

And do you know You do not know how Simpson got back?

# 1478 A:

No, I don't.

# 1479 Q:

Was Schwartz's house within walking distance of

# 1480 A:

You can walk.

# 1481 Q:

How far was the distance at that time between Mr. Simpson and Schwartz's house?

# 1482 A:

About a mile-and-a-half, I guess.

# 1483 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson say he had walked back?

# 1484 A:

I didn't ask.

# 1485 Q:

Now, on that day I have been told by Dan Leonard that the Rose Bowl was on January 2, not January 1.Your testimony seemed to indicate that on that day Mr. Simpson went to the Rose Bowl but you declined to go.

Do you have any recollection whether the Rose Bowl was on January 1,the same day that of this occurred or was the next day?

# 1486 A:

I was under the impression that the Rose Bowl was always played on January 1st. I played in it and it was on January 1st.

# 1487 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

What was the basis of the comment to me, Mr. Leonard?

# 1488 DAN LEONARD:

That was my understanding, but

# 1489 MICHAEL BREWER:

I think it is always on the 1st.

# 1490 DAN LEONARD:

What difference does it make what I understand? Seriously.

# 1491 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Because

# 1492 DAN LEONARD:

I mean, it was a conversation with you off the record. What difference does that make?

# 1493 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Because if it occurred on January 2nd

# 1494 DAN LEONARD:

Then ask him that.

# 1495 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I just did.

# 1496 DAN LEONARD:

I mean, you know, come on.

# 1497 A.C. COWLINGS:

As far as I know it was the 1st.

# 1498 DAN LEONARD:

Geez, maybe I'm wrong. I can't imagine I could ever be wrong, but maybe I'm wrong.

# 1499 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

By the way, I don't think you are wrong.

# 1500 DAN LEONARD:

Why don't we find out.

# 1501 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I'm trying to. I'm trying to find out. I just want to ask

# 1502 DAN LEONARD:

Well, you are asking I am surprised that you did not find out before you asked the question. You told me that you know the truth, you told me that you know everything.

# 1503 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

We'll have to go back to one of the USC Rose Bowl guides and find out.

# 1504 DAN LEONARD:

Whatever.

# 1505

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1506 Q:

I asked you the question to see if it refreshes your memory as to what you and Mr. Simpson did that day on January 1.

# 1507 A:

He went to the Rose Bowl. That was his plans.

# 1508 Q:

At no time did you look inside the bag ofthe velvet bag that you picked up for him.'

# 1509 DONALD RE:

Are you talking about on this occasion?

# 1510 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 1511 DONALD RE:

He is talking about when you went to look for the keys and found the bag in the trash.

# 1512 A.C. COWLINGS:

Oh, the jewelry bag.

# 1513

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1514 Q:

Yes.

# 1515 A:

No, no, I never looked in it.

# 1516 Q:

And was this Where in the trash was this bag? Was it one of those big trash containers that was out in the front of the Von Watts' property?

# 1517 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. That misstates his testimony.

# 1518 A.C. COWLINGS:

It was in

# 1519 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

His testimony was that it was in a neighbor's garbage can.

# 1520 DAN LEONARD:

Yes. But please, have you reviewed the deposition?

# 1521 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I am just reading my notes, "neighbor's garbage can."

# 1522 DAN LEONARD:

But he testified that it was not the Von Watts, clearly.

# 1523 DONALD RE:

I don't think you were there.

# 1524 DAN LEONARD:

Am I wrong about that?

# 1525 DONALD RE:

You had stepped out and he described two houses down the street on the side street.

# 1526 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I am not rea311y concerned about whose garbage can it was. I am concerned about where in the can it was.

# 1527 DAN LEONARD:

But I am concerned about an accurate reflection in the record.

# 1528 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Good. I'm glad.

# 1529 Q:

Can you tell us where in the can First of all, what kind of a garbage can was it?

# 1530 A:

It was a garbage can.

# 1531 Q:

A metal can?

# 1532 A:

I don't remember.

# 1533 Q:

Where in the garbage can did you find the jewelry bagexcuse me the velvet bag?

# 1534 A:

It was sitting in the garbage can.

# 1535 Q:

Right in clear view?

# 1536 A:

I picked it up, yes.

# 1537 Q:

Did the can have a lid on it?

# 1538 A:

I don't remember.

# 1539 Q:

Was there more than one can?

# 1540 A:

Yes, there was more than one.

# 1541 Q:

Do you recall having to look through various cans to find out to find this bag?

# 1542 A:

I don't remember.

# 1543 Q:

When Mr. Simpson asked you to go back and get the keys and the bag did you resist at all doing so?

# 1544 A:

No.

# 1545 DAN LEONARD:

Dan.

# 1546 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Why don't you change the tape now.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape number one of Volume IV. The time is approximately 11:14, and we are off the record. (Recess taken.)

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 11:17. This is the beginning of tape number two of Volume IV.

# 1547

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1548 Q:

On the morning ofWithdrawn. On the evening of June 12 after you returned toWithdrawn.

Do you remember what you did, Mr. Cowlings, after you drove Marcus Allen back to his house

# 1549 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague as to

# 1550

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1551 Q:

on June 12 after going to Thousand Oaks to see automobiles?

# 1552 DAN LEONARD:

Vague as to time.

# 1553 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember exactly what I did.

# 1554

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1555 Q:

Do you remember where you went?

# 1556 A:

Eventually I went to a friend's house for a celebration.

# 1557 Q:

For a party?

# 1558 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1559 Q:

That was the party that you previously discussed?

# 1560 A:

Yes.

# 1561 Q:

Between dropping Marcus Allen off and going to the friend's house, do you know what you did in that interval of time?

# 1562 A:

No, I don't remember.

KEY QUOTE

# 1563 Q:

Did you go back home?

# 1564 A:

I could have. I don't remember.

KEY QUOTE

# 1565 Q:

Did you try to get in touch with Mr. Simpson that day?

# 1566 A:

I don't think so.

# 1567 Q:

Did you make any phone calls to his answering machine or his voicemail?

# 1568 A:

I don't remember.

# 1569 Q:

Did you drive by the house at all?

# 1570 A:

No.

# 1571 Q:

The only time you drove by that house was when you went there in the morning; right?

# 1572 A:

Yes.

# 1573 Q:

And when you came back from the party I think you said it was around 10:30 or 11:00did youyou came back to your house in Palisades; right?

# 1574 A:

I came back. I don't know exactly what time I got back, but I came straight home from the party.

# 1575 Q:

About 10:30 or 11:00?

# 1576 A:

I don't remember exactly what time it was.

# 1577 Q:

And when you got home This was the place in the Palisades; right?

# 1578 A:

Yes.

# 1579 Q:

(continuing) did you go back out that evening?

# 1580 A:

No.

# 1581 Q:

So you were in the house the rest of the time until you got a phone call from Arnelle in the morning?

# 1582 A:

Yes.

# 1583 Q:

And did you speak to anybody else on the telephone that evening until the Arnelle call?

# 1584 A:

I could have.

# 1585 Q:

Do you remember?

# 1586 A:

No.

# 1587 Q:

When you picked up the children at West L A. Police Station you drove them back to Rockingham; right?

# 1588 A:

Yes.

# 1589 Q:

And then you drove them to the Browns; right?

# 1590 A:

Yes.

# 1591 Q:

At any time that you were with them did you try talking to them at all about what had happened?

# 1592 A:

No.

# 1593 Q:

Did they say anything, either Sydney or Justin

# 1594 A:

No.

# 1595 Q:

about what had happened?

# 1596 A:

No.

# 1597 Q:

Did they say anything about their mom being on a telephone call crying on the phone?

# 1598 A:

No.

# 1599 Q:

So they didn't You had no conversation at all with the children regarding their mother; is that right?

# 1600 A:

Justy had fell asleep and Sydney was layingSydney went to sleep.

# 1601 Q:

Including when you picked them up from the police station?

# 1602 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 1603 A.C. COWLINGS:

While we were driving to Laguna.

# 1604 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

# 1605 Q:

But the entire time that you were with them prior to getting to Laguna, there was no conversation at all with either of them about what had happened or about their mother; is that right?

# 1606 A:

No.

# 1607 Q:

That's correct?

# 1608 A:

Pardon?

# 1609 Q:

Is that correct?

# 1610 A:

You saidThere was no conversation about their mother.

# 1611 Q:

That's true; right?

# 1612 A:

Right.

# 1613 Q:

Or not true?

# 1614 A:

No. That's true.

# 1615 Q:

Okay. Based on the time that you were with them that morning, did you have any sense whether Sydney even understood what had happened to her mother, that she had been killed?

# 1616 A:

I really didn't know what Sydney's thoughts were.

# 1617 Q:

And same question as to Justin?

# 1618 A:

Right.

# 1619 Q:

Same answer?

# 1620 A:

Yes. I had no knowledge as to what his thought was either.

# 1621 Q:

And so far as you know, neither child understood that their mother had been killed; right?

# 1622 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 1623 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know what they knew.

# 1624

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1625 Q:

You said that you were present at the Rockingham home when the police called Mr. Simpson. Do you recall that?

# 1626 A:

I was there.

# 1627 Q:

Do you remember the conversation from the Rockingham side?

# 1628 A:

# 1629 Q:

Did you get on the phone to speak to Mr. Simpson?

# 1630 A:

No.

# 1631 Q:

Prior to Mr. Simpson's return to Los Angeles did you speak to Cathy Randa that morning?

# 1632 A:

I don't remember if I did.

# 1633 Q:

Or Skip Taft?

# 1634 A:

I don't remember.

# 1635 Q:

Are you aware of any person as of June 12 1994 with whom Nicole had any conflict in her life?

# 1636 A:

I have no knowledge of it.

# 1637 Q:

You are not aware of anyone who would have had a motive to kill her; is that right?

# 1638 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 1639

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1640 Q:

You are not aware of anyone who would have or might have had a motive to kill her; is that true?

# 1641 DAN LEONARD:

Calls for speculation.

# 1642 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have no knowledge of that.

# 1643

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1644 Q:

When you saw Paula in front of the hotel in Palm Springs when you dropped the children off, did you speak to her at all?

# 1645 A:

Yes.

# 1646 Q:

And can you recount that conversation?

# 1647 A:

"Hi."

# 1648 Q:

Uh, goodbye"?

# 1649 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 1650 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 1651

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1652 Q:

Did you spend some time in Palm Springs when you dropped the children off?

# 1653 A:

Yeah. I ended up going out on the golf course with Katherine and Marcus.

# 1654 Q:

The three of you

# 1655 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1656 Q:

played a round of golf?

# 1657 A:

No. Marcus was playing and Katherine and I were in the golf cart.

# 1658 Q:

Did you do anything else on that trip before you left to go back to Los Angeles other than go out on the golf course with Marcus and Katherine?

# 1659 A:

I don't remember.

# 1660 Q:

Did you spend any time with Paula Barbieri?

# 1661 A:

Unless we were all in a group.

# 1662 Q:

Or Mr. Simpson?

# 1663 A:

If we were all together, but I never-

# 1664 Q:

Do you remember that?

# 1665 A:

spent any time with just her and I.

# 1666 Q:

Do you remember that?

# 1667 A:

No.

# 1668 Q:

And you do not remember any conversation with Mr. Simpson on that trip?

# 1669 A:

We spoke. We embraced. We had conversations. What we talked about, I don't remember.

# 1670 Q:

Let me follow up on some questions with regard to Nicole's notes which have been previously marked as Exhibit 88.

First of all, have you seen any of those notes before?

# 1671 A:

No.

# 1672 Q:

Do you recognize the handwriting as Nicole's?

# 1673 A:

It could be. It could be Nicole's. It looks similar.

# 1674 Q:

She saysI am going to read the entrysome of these entries and ask you if you have any knowledge about any of the statements Nicole makes.

Early in first year 1977 in San Francisco after his baby died I found an earring in my apartment bed on Bedford. I accused O.J. of sleeping with someone named Teri. He threw fit. Chased me. Grabbed me. Threw me into walls. Threw all my clothes out of window into street three floors down. Bruised me. Al Cowlings calmed him. Do you know ifFirst of all, do you know who Teri is?

# 1675 A:

No.

# 1676 Q:

Do you know of any apartment that Nicole had on Bedford?

# 1677 A:

Yes, she had an apartment on Bedford.

# 1678 Q:

And that is here in Beverly Hills?

# 1679 A:

Yes.

# 1680 Q:

And you had been to that apartment?

# 1681 A:

Yes.

# 1682 Q:

And do you know of any incident in which Nicole found an earring in that apartment that she accused Mr. Simpson of giving or having for another person?

# 1683 A:

No.

# 1684 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, compound.

# 1685 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 1686

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1687 Q:

And do you know of any incident in which Mr. Simpson chased Nicole, grabbed her, and threw her into the walls?

# 1688 A:

No.

# 1689 Q:

Your recollection is that the incident in which Mr. Simpson threw the clothes out of the window into the street three floors down occurred in what apartment?

# 1690 A:

In San Francisco.

# 1691 Q:

And do you know the street?

# 1692 A:

Greenwich, I think. Off of Greenwich. I don't know exactly. It is up by Union Square I mean Union Lombard Street.

# 1693 Q:

Do you know a person named Teri?

# 1694 A:

I know Teri's, but I don't know what person you are speaking of.

# 1695 Q:

Do you know a woman named Teri,T-e-r-i, who also knew O.J. Simpson?

# 1696 A:

He has a niece named Teri.

# 1697 Q:

Is that the only person a woman named Teri who you know who also knows Mr. Simpson?

# 1698 A:

I have a friend's wife whose name is Teri.

# 1699 Q:

Did that person know Mr. Simpson in the late '70s

# 1700 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation

# 1701

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1702 Q:

to your knowledge?

# 1703 DAN LEONARD:

lack of foundation.

# 1704 A.C. COWLINGS:

Yes. He was at the wedding. Her and her husband got married.

# 1705

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1706 Q:

When was that?

# 1707 A:

It was when we were still playing ball.

# 1708 Q:

And what is that person's name?

# 1709 A:

Teri Scott.

# 1710 Q:

Is Teri a woman?

# 1711 A:

Yes.

# 1712 Q:

And what is her husband's name?

# 1713 A:

Bubba.

# 1714 Q:

Bubba Scott?

# 1715 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1716 MICHAEL BREWER:

Maiden name.

# 1717

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1718 Q:

What is Teri's maiden name?

# 1719 A:

I don't know.

# 1720 Q:

Do you know whether Teri knew Mr. Simpson before she married Mr. Scott?

# 1721 A:

No.

# 1722 Q:

In the first page of these notes Nicole writes, 1978 - first time he beat me up after Louis and Nunie Marx' anniversary party. Started on street corner of New York City Fifth Avenue at about 9:00. Threw me on floor. Hit me. Kicked me. Went to Sherry Netherland Hotel where he continued to beat me for hours as I kept crawling for the door. Called my mother a whore. I can't read the next word.

To call her and tell her that. Hit me while he fucked me. Do you knowHave you ever heard of that incident?

# 1723 A:

No.

# 1724 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 1725

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1726 Q:

Do you know who Louis and Nunie Marx are?

# 1727 A:

Yes.

# 1728 Q:

And do you know whether they had an anniversary party in 1978

# 1729 A:

They had a party.

# 1730 Q:

or thereabouts?

# 1731 A:

They had a party.

# 1732 Q:

Did you attend?

# 1733 A:

Yes.

# 1734 Q:

And did that party take place in New York City?

# 1735 A:

Yes.

# 1736 Q:

Did you stay at the Sherry Netherland Hotel?

# 1737 A:

# 1738 Q:

Do you know where you stayed when you were there for that party?

# 1739 A:

The Park Lane.

# 1740 Q:

And do you know where Mr. Simpson stayed?

# 1741 A:

At the Sherry Netherland.

# 1742 Q:

Who were you there with, if anyone?

# 1743 A:

Where?

# 1744 Q:

When you went to the party. Did you go with anyone?

# 1745 A:

The three of us went.

# 1746 Q:

You traveled to New York together?

# 1747 A:

I met them in New York. They were in New York.

# 1748 Q:

And did you return together to Los Angeles?

# 1749 A:

Yes.

# 1750 Q:

On the same plane?

# 1751 A:

Yes.

# 1752 Q:

Do you remember if you returned to Los Angeles the day after the party that the Marxes threw?

# 1753 A:

I think we left the following afternoon.

# 1754 Q:

Did you leave the anniversary party Well, you don't know

# 1755 Q:

You do not remember if it was an anniversary party?

# 1756 A:

It was a dinner party.

# 1757 Q:

Dinner party.

# 1758 A:

I don't know what the occasion was for.

# 1759 Q:

Where was the party held?

# 1760 A:

At their residence.

# 1761 Q:

Is that right in New York City?

# 1762 A:

Yes.

# 1763 Q:

Without giving me the address, what street is it on?

# 1764 A:

It is across the street from the park.

# 1765 Q:

From Central Park?

# 1766 A:

Yeah. Overlooking Central Park.

# 1767 Q:

Do you remember the street name?

# 1768 A:

No.

# 1769 Q:

East side or west side?

# 1770 A:

I don't know.

# 1771 Q:

How many people were at the dinner party?

# 1772 A:

There was quite a few.

# 1773 Q:

Would you say, like, in excess of 50?

# 1774 A:

Could have been.

# 1775 Q:

Do you remember any other persons who attended that party besides yourself, Nicole, and O.J. Simpson and, of course, the Marxes?

# 1776 A:

The chairman or the president of CBS was there.

# 1777 Q:

Do you remember his name?

# 1778 A:

Paley.

# 1779 Q:

Bill Paley, William Paley?

# 1780 A:

William Paley.

# 1781 Q:

And can you remember anyone else?

# 1782 A:

There was a lot of people. I can't He stood out.

# 1783 Q:

Names?

# 1784 A:

He stood out. He was a very interesting man.

# 1785 Q:

Any friends of Mr. Simpson or Nicole or you who attended that party?

# 1786 A:

O.J. could have known some of the people there. I don't know. I don't know for sure.

# 1787 Q:

Did you have a friendship with Louis Marx?

# 1788 A:

Yes. I met Louis through O.J.

# 1789 Q:

And is he still good friends with you?

# 1790 A:

Uh-huh. Yes.

# 1791 Q:

Have you spoken to him since O.J.'s release from prison?

# 1792 A:

No.

# 1793 Q:

After Mr. Simpson's arrest did you at any time speak to Mr. Marx about Nicole's murder?

# 1794 A:

We had lunch in New York.

# 1795 Q:

Was it just the two of you?

# 1796 A:

Yeah, I think so.

# 1797 Q:

Do you recall when that lunch occurred?

# 1798 A:

One afternoon I called him. I told him I was in town, and we arranged to have lunch. It was good- we hadn't seen each other in a long time.

# 1799 Q:

Can you tell us what was said about Nicole's murder and Mr. Simpson that day?

# 1800 A:

How a sad situation that all the thing was, and he was very taken by it, you know, just mostly just what a shame.

# 1801 Q:

Did you have any conversation with Mr. Marx about the issue of abuse by Mr. Simpson against Nicole?

# 1802 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague-

# 1803 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

MR LEONARD: - lack of foundation.

# 1804

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1805 Q:

Did you have any conversation with M. Marx about whether he would be a witness in the case?

# 1806 A:

No.

# 1807 Q:

Are there any other friends of Mr. Simpson's who you spoke to in New York about Nicole's murder?

# 1808 A:

I don't remember.

# 1809 Q:

You have spoken to Mark Packer?

# 1810 A:

Yeah, I probably - Yeah, I have spoken with Mark.

# 1811 Q:

is he still a friend of yours?

# 1812 A:

Yes.

# 1813 Q:

As are Bobby and Robin Bender.

# 1814 A:

Yes.

# 1815 Q:

And you have spoken to them about Nicole's murder from time to time, right?

# 1816 A:

Yes.

# 1817 Q:

Have you spoken to them at all about Mr. Simpson's stay with them days before Nicole's murder?

# 1818 A:

No.

# 1819 Q:

Did you ever hear of an argument or an altercation between the Simpsons following Louis and nunie Marx anniversary party that they threw in New York?

MR LEONARD: Objection. Compound.

# 1820 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 1821

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1822 Q:

You knew nothing about this?

# 1823 A:

Nothing about what?

# 1824 Q:

About an incident of the sort that I described to you from Nicole's notes?

# 1825 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague

# 1826 A.C. COWLINGS:

I went by the hotel. He had called me to come by the hotel that night.

# 1827

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1828 Q:

And what happened when you got to the Sherry Netherland Hotel?

# 1829 A:

We got - I got there and him and Nicole, I guess they had had an argument and he said she had embarrassed him at the party.

# 1830 Q:

How had she embarrassed him?

# 1831 A:

I don't know. I really don't remember. I don't know if it was something she said.

# 1832 Q:

Did you see the incident at the party where Mr. Simpson thought Nicole had embarrassed him?

# 1833 A:

No.

# 1834 Q:

Did you leave the party with Mr. Simpson and Nicole at the same time?

# 1835 A:

No. I left earlier.

# 1836 Q:

You left earlier?

# 1837 A:

Uh_huh.

# 1838 Q:

And you went back to the Park Lane?

# 1839 A:

Yes.

# 1840 Q:

And do you recall generally what time it was when you got back to the hotel?

# 1841 A:

I don't know.

# 1842 Q:

Before midnight?

# 1843 A:

I don't know.

# 1844 Q:

And was it in the early hours of the morning that you got a call from Mr. Simpson from his hotel at the Sherry Netherland?

# 1845 A:

I don't know what time it was.

# 1846 Q:

What did he say over the phone? That he and Nicole had gotten into an artgument and he wanted you to come over?

# 1847 A:

No. He wanted me to come over.

# 1848 Q:

Did he explain to you over the phone that there had been an argument, or did you learn that when you got there?

# 1849 A:

Once I got there?

# 1850 Q:

So he said nothing to you as to why he wanted you to come over?

# 1851 A:

No.

# 1852 Q:

Did you go over right away?

# 1853 A:

Yes.

# 1854 Q:

That's right across the street, isn't it? A: It is up the street.

# 1855 Q:

So you can just walk there, in other words; right?

# 1856 A:

Yes.

# 1857 Q:

So you were there in a matter of minutes?

# 1858 A:

Yes.

# 1859 Q:

Do you recall what time of the morning it was?

# 1860 A:

No.

# 1861 Q:

And when you got there, did you how long did you stay there?

# 1862 A:

I really don't remember.

# 1863 Q:

Did you spend the rest of the night there?

# 1864 A:

No.

# 1865 Q:

You returned and went back to the hotel?

# 1866 A:

Right.

# 1867 Q:

And did you see Nicole?

# 1868 A:

Yes.

# 1869 Q:

And was she still dressed as she had been at the party, or was she dressed differently or dressed at all?

# 1870 A:

She was in bed.

# 1871 Q:

She was in bed?

# 1872 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1873 Q:

And was Mr. Simpson dressed?

# 1874 A:

No. He looked like he was in bed.

# 1875 Q:

And did you go into the bedroom? Was it a suite or was it a single bedroom?

# 1876 A:

I think it was a suite.

# 1877 Q:

And you went into the bedroom?

# 1878 A:

That's where all three of us were.

# 1879 Q:

As far as you understood, what was the reason why you were being asked to come into the room and be there with them?

# 1880 A:

He hadsomethingWhatever she had said he wanted me to hear and either she said, "I wasn't trying to embarrass you" or "I'm sorry," whatever.

# 1881 Q:

Mr. Simpson was upset?

# 1882 A:

Yeah.

# 1883 Q:

Was Nicole upset?

# 1884 A:

Yeah.

# 1885 Q:

And what did Nicole sayIn effect, Mr. Simpson had her repeat what she had said or done at the party to you; is that basically what happened?

# 1886 A:

I don't know if she repeated it or he had her repeat it or she repeated it, but she apologized and that was it.

# 1887 Q:

And did you Withdrawn. What is it that she said?

# 1888 A:

That I don't remember.

KEY QUOTE

# 1889 Q:

You do not have any recollection at all

# 1890 A:

No.

# 1891 Q:

as to what it was that caused the fight?

# 1892 A:

No, I don't.

# 1893 Q:

Did youWas there any mention that she had been hit?

# 1894 A:

No.

# 1895 Q:

Was there any mention at all at that time of a physical altercation?

# 1896 A:

No.

# 1897 Q:

After you saw them the next day did you learn about any physical altercation?

# 1898 A:

No.

# 1899 Q:

Did you discuss the incident again with either of them the next day or thereafter?

# 1900 A:

No.

# 1901 Q:

You have no knowledge one way or the other as to whether there was a physical altercation; is that true?

# 1902 A:

No.

# 1903 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 1904 A.C. COWLINGS:

No, I have no knowledge of it.

# 1905

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1906 Q:

And do you know of any reason why Nicole would make such a thing up?

# 1907 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative, calls for speculation, vague.

# 1908 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have no knowledge of it.

# 1909

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1910 Q:

The next day were the Simpsons still arguing about this?

# 1911 A:

No.

# 1912 Q:

After Nicole and O.J .spoke to you in the bedroom did you then leave?

# 1913 A:

Yes.

# 1914 Q:

Was this the first time that you had been summoned over to their home or their room in the course of their having an argument?

# 1915 A:

Yes.

# 1916 Q:

And after this incident in New York in 1978 had that ever happened again?

# 1917 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 1918 A.C. COWLINGS:

Happened again to?

# 1919

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1920 Q:

In the sense where you were not with them in the same home but someplace else and you got a call saying "come on over here."

# 1921 A:

No.

# 1922 Q:

You already talked about the '89 incident?

# 1923 A:

No.

# 1924 Q:

So other than the '89 incident and the '78 incident no other incidents like that come to mind?

# 1925 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 1926 A.C. COWLINGS:

No not that I remember. '

# 1927

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1928 Q:

Now, Nicole writes in the next entry as follows:

Pips on Rodeo had mushrooms (drugs) with Neil Sloane. He hit me off the sofa at Pips. I said we were leaving. Beat me so bad in our house and in the wine closet. Do you have any recollection of that incident?

# 1929 A:

No.

# 1930 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 1931

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1932 Q:

No?

# 1933 A:

No.

# 1934 Q:

Were you aware of a place on Rodeo called Pips?

# 1935 A:

Oh, yes.

Q : And had you been to Pips?

# 1936 A:

Probably once.

# 1937 Q:

And what was Pips?

# 1938 A:

A night spot. If it was the old Pips, it moved from Robertson up on Rodeo. It was in the Beverly Hills Rodeo Collection.

# 1939 Q:

Did you ever go to Pips with Mr. Simpson or Nicole?

# 1940 A:

No. Not that I remember.

# 1941 Q:

Do you know who Neil Sloane is?

# 1942 A:

Yes.

# 1943 Q:

Who is Neil Sloane? A: A friend.

# 1944 Q:

A friend of yours?

# 1945 A:

O.J.'s and mine.

# 1946 Q:

How long have you known Neil Sloane?

# 1947 A:

Since About '78, '79. Maybe early '80s.

# 1948 Q:

Is Neil Sloane a hairdresser?

# 1949 A:

Yes.

# 1950 Q:

He works in Beverly Hills?

# 1951 A:

Yes.

# 1952 Q:

Have you ever spoken to him since Mr. Simpson's arrest?

# 1953 A:

Yes, I have spoken to him.

# 1954 Q:

And have you spoken to him about Nicole's murder?

# 1955 A:

Just how sorry the situation is.

# 1956 Q:

Did you ever have any conversation with Mr.Sloane about any incidents of physical abuse by Mr. Simpson against Nicole?

# 1957 A:

No.

# 1958 Q:

Or any incidents that occurred in his presence?

# 1959 A:

No.

# 1960 Q:

Did either Mr. Simpson or Nicole ever tell you about an incident such as the one that I just read?

# 1961 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound.

# 1962 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not that I remember.

# 1963

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1964 Q:

Did you ever see Mr. Simpson take a drug known as mushroom or mushrooms?

# 1965 A:

Yes.

# 1966 Q:

What is that, an organic psychedelic drug?

# 1967 A:

Yes. I guess.

# 1968 Q:

Did you ever see Nicole take such a drug?

# 1969 A:

Yes.

# 1970 Q:

What years were Mr. Simpson and Nicole taking mushrooms?

# 1971 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague and calls for speculation, "taking.

BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You can answer.

# 1972 A:

It could have been early '80s.

# 1973 Q:

Mr. Cowlings, did you ever hear of any altercation between the Simpsons involving Nicole going to the wine closet?

# 1974 A:

No.

# 1975 Q:

Mr. Simpson does have a wine closet; right?

# 1976 A:

Yes. In the Rockingham house, yes.

# 1977 Q:

In the Rockingham house. It is behind the bar?

# 1978 A:

Yes.

# 1979 Q:

The next entry reads, Ed McCabe and Denise Brown at La Candna Mexican restaurant. Threw us out of the house on top of each other. Claimed it to be a bicycle accident. O.J. talked to doctor. First doctor said possible skull fracture and then after O.J. talked to him he said its head just badly bruised. Just one second. I am not sure those areIt is hard for me to decipher some of these notes. I am not sure those are the same incident.

Let me ask you this: You have already testified that you were not present when Mr. Simpson, Nicole, Ed McCabe, and Denise Brown went to dinner at La Cantina restaurant; right?

# 1980 A:

No, I was not there.

# 1981 Q:

And did you ever learn that there had been any kind of physical altercation whatsoever regarding that evening?

# 1982 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 1983 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 1984

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1985 Q:

Mr. Simpson told you about that evening?

# 1986 A:

He told me about it.

# 1987 Q:

And he said that McCabe, Denise Brown, and Nicole had left the house?

# 1988 A:

He asked them to leave.

# 1989 Q:

He had asked them to leave?

# 1990 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1991 Q:

Something to do with their smoking; right?

# 1992 A:

It started when NicoleAs stated before, that O.J. didn't allow smoking in the house, and that was part of hoping to get Nicole to stop smoking. But when she smoked, she would have to step either out the front door or out one of the other doors to have a smoke.

DeniseThat evening, supposedly Nicole stepped out to have a smoke. Denise had some comments about to O.J. about it, as far as disrespecting her or not respecting Nicole or something like that. And I think O.J. made a reference to Denise, I mean, Nicole knows and she has accepted it, if she is going to smoke, she has to smoke outside, and I guess one thing led to another. He eventuallyI think they sidedall three of them sided together against him, so he told them all to leave.

# 1993 Q:

Did you ever talk to Nicole about her version of the events?

# 1994 A:

No.

# 1995 Q:

Or Denise?

# 1996 A:

# 1997 Q:

Or Ed McCabe?

# 1998 A:

No.

# 1999 Q:

Nicole writes in regard to another incident, Smashed my car white Mercedes with baseball bat after visiting Tammy Hughes. He greeted me at the gate. I was too afraid to get out of the car. He did it because I was late. About 7:00 to 8:00 p.m. Westec Security was notified and came. Also the West LAPD came. Do you have any knowledge of such an incident?

# 2000 A:

No.

# 2001 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 2002

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2003 Q:

Prior to Nicole's death had you heard from either Mr. Simpson or Nicole or anyone else about an incident where Mr. Simpson damaged her white Mercedes with a baseball bat?

# 2004 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound.

# 2005 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2006

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2007 Q:

Prior to Nicole's death were you aware of any incident in which the police came out to the Rockingham property because of any kind of argument or incident involving the Simpsons other than the 1989 incident?

# 2008 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound.

# 2009 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not that I know of.

# 2010

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2011 Q:

And are you awareWithdrawn. Prior to Nicole's death did you learn of any incidentWithdrawn. Prior to Nicole's death were you aware of any occasions in which Westec Security went out to the property on account of an argument or altercation involving the Simpsons?

# 2012 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 2013

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2014 Q:

And by "the Simpsons," of course I mean Nicole and Mr. Simpson.

# 2015 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, compound, vague.

# 2016 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not that I know of.

# 2017

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2018 Q:

And prior to Nicole's death are you aware of any incident other than the 1989 one when the police or security personnel came out to any home or place where the Simpsons were staying on account of any argument, disagreement, or incident between them?

# 2019 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, vague, lack of foundation.

# 2020 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not that I know of.

# 2021

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2022 Q:

Prior to Nicole's death did you learn of any incident involving an argument between Nicole and O.J. over Nicole coming latecoming back home late after visiting Tammy Hughes?

# 2023 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2024 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2025

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2026 Q:

Nicole writes in the next entry, Michael Millitello's wedding at Ritz Carlton. O.J. lost his temper at the beach house. Hit me. Threw me up against the walls. Threw my camera, it broke the paneling. Moldings off the doors to master bedroom and garage door. Do you know who Michael Millitello is?

# 2027 A:

Yes.

# 2028 Q:

Did you attend his wedding?

# 2029 A:

No.

# 2030 Q:

Do you know that he got married and had a reception at the Ritz Carlton?

# 2031 A:

No.

# 2032 Q:

Do you know when he got married?

# 2033 A:

No.

# 2034 Q:

Is he a friend of yours?

# 2035 A:

I know him.

# 2036 Q:

Do you know of any reason why you did not attend his wedding?

# 2037 A:

I wasn't on the guest list.

# 2038 Q:

Does he have a brother?

# 2039 A:

I don't know.

# 2040 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson ever inform you that he had attended Mike Millitello's wedding?

# 2041 A:

No.

# 2042 Q:

Prior to Nicole's death you had no knowledge of any wedding involving Mr. Millitello?

# 2043 A:

No.

# 2044 Q:

Are you aware of anyWithdrawn. Mr. Simpson owned a beach house; correct?

# 2045 A:

Yes.

# 2046 Q:

And that was in Laguna Beach?

# 2047 A:

Yes.

# 2048 Q:

And that was different from the condominium at Monarch Bay; correct?

# 2049 A:

Yes.

# 2050 Q:

And he sold that beach house a year or so before Nicole's death; correct?

# 2051 A:

If that is when he sold it, yes.

# 2052 Q:

But he sold it prior to Nicole's death?

# 2053 A:

Yes.

# 2054 Q:

And did that beach house have a master bedroom?

# 2055 A:

Yes.

# 2056 Q:

And did it have a garage door?

# 2057 A:

Yes.

# 2058 Q:

And did that beach house have any paneling?

# 2059 A:

Paneling? What do you mean "paneling"?

# 2060 Q:

Nicole uses the word "paneling." I assume she means paneling on walls or on doors. Are you aware of any of the paneling on the

# 2061 A:

# 2062 Q:

Was that a large home?

# 2063 A:

It was three stories.

# 2064 Q:

Had you stayed there?

# 2065 A:

Yes.

# 2066 Q:

Many times?

# 2067 A:

Yes.

# 2068 Q:

Did you have a key to the house?

# 2069 A:

No.

# 2070 Q:

Were you ever there when the Simpson had any kind of altercation?

# 2071 A:

No.

# 2072 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 2073

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2074 Q:

Or loud argument?

# 2075 A:

No.

# 2076 Q:

And the incident that Nicole wrote about, do you have any knowledge whatsoever about that?

# 2077 A:

I have no knowledge of it.

# 2078 Q:

Okay. The next entry Nicole writes, 1986 with Eric and Val Von Watts. Listened to music at "At My Place" on Wilshire. "At My Place" is in caps. After we finished have drinks we left. Beat me up so bad at home. Tore my blue sweater and blue slacks completely off me. Went to hospital on Wilshire. And then I believe it continues, Claimed it to be a bicycle accident. O.J. talked to doctor. First doctor said possible skull fracture and then after O.J. talked to him he said its (head) just badly bruised.

Do you know Eric and Val Von Watts?

# 2079 A:

Yes.

# 2080 Q:

Val stands for Valerie?

# 2081 A:

Yes.

# 2082 Q:

And the Von Watts were the Simpsons' neighbors whose property adjoined Mr. Simpson's property where the tennis courts are; correct?

# 2083 A:

Yes.

# 2084 Q:

And have you ever heard of a place on Wilshire called At My Place?

# 2085 A:

I don't remember.

# 2086 Q:

Did you ever go out with Eric and Valerie Von Watts and Nicole and O.J.?

# 2087 A:

I probably have.

# 2088 Q:

Do you remember going with them on an occasion in or about 1986 to a place called At My Place?

# 2089 A:

No.

# 2090 Q:

Or to anyplace on Wilshire Boulevard?

# 2091 A:

No.

# 2092 Q:

Are you aware of anyWithdrawn. Prior to Nicole's death, did you ever become aware of an incident where the Simpsons had an altercation after going out with the Von Watts?

# 2093 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation

# 2094 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2095 DAN LEONARD:

vague.

# 2096

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2097 Q:

Where Mr. Simpson tore Nicole's clothing

# 2098 A:

No.

# 2099 Q:

and he hurt her head?

# 2100 A:

No.

# 2101 Q:

You have no knowledge of that?

# 2102 A:

No knowledge of it.

# 2103 Q:

Prior to Nicole's death, had you ever heard that Nicole was taken to a hospital and informed the doctor that she had fallen off of a bicycle?

# 2104 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2105 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2106

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2107 Q:

Are you aware of any incident where Mr. Simpson had told Nicole to lie to the doctor about what had happened to her?

# 2108 A:

No.

# 2109 Q:

Do you know who Harvey Paley is?

# 2110 A:

Yes.

# 2111 Q:

Are you aware of any treatment that Harvey Paley has given to Nicole or had given to Nicole?

# 2112 A:

No.

# 2113 Q:

Are you awareWithdrawn. Do you know whether Harvey Paley ever saw Nicole?

# 2114 A:

No.

# 2115 Q:

The next entry in Nicole's notes say as follows: 1988 - Hawaii - gay man kissed Justin. O.J. threw me against walls in our hotel and on the floor. Put bruises on my arms and back. The window scarred mesomething had thrown me out.

I can't read that.

Thought had thrown me out. If you want to take a look at that. Now, you were in Hawaii with the Simpsons and the Browns in 1988; correct?

# 2116 A:

Right.

# 2117 Q:

And you have testified to some extent about this incident where Mr. Simpson became upset because Justin had kissed a gay man; right?

# 2118 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 2119 A.C. COWLINGS:

Something like that.

# 2120

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2121 Q:

Now, what hotel were you or condominium were you staying in?

# 2122 A:

We were at a hotel.

# 2123 Q:

Do you remember the name of the hotel?

# 2124 A:

The Weston.

# 2125 Q:

What island was it? Did you say Weston?

# 2126 A:

Weston.

# 2127 Q:

Was it on Maui?

# 2128 A:

No, it wasn't Maui. Wherever the Weston Hotel is. It is a huge, huge hotel right next to the airport of that particular island.

# 2129 Q:

Were you staying in the same hotel as Mr. Simpson?

# 2130 A:

Yes.

# 2131 Q:

And were you staying on the same floor as Mr. Simpson?

# 2132 A:

Yes.

# 2133 Q:

And was your room next to his?

# 2134 A:

No.

# 2135 Q:

Did you hear of any altercation between Nicole and Mr. Simpson during that trip to Hawaii?

# 2136 A:

No.

# 2137 Q:

Did you ever talk to him about an argument that they had had back in the room.'

# 2138 A:

No.

# 2139 Q:

Or her?

# 2140 A:

No.

# 2141 Q:

And you were not asked to come talk to either of them to be a peacemaker or to calm them down?

# 2142 A:

No.

# 2143 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound.

# 2144

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2145 Q:

And do you have any knowledge why Nicole would say anything would describe an incident that did not occur?

# 2146 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative, lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 2147 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have no knowledge.

# 2148

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2149 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation, vague.

# 2150 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

BY MR. PETROCELL

# 2151 Q:

Do you know of a track meet in San Jose that the Simpsons attended?

# 2152 A:

No.

# 2153 Q:

Nicole writes, Found this letter I wrote to myself. These kinds of things happened every other week. Verbal abuse stuff.

Had you ever heard Mr. Simpson use verbalWithdrawn.

Had you ever heard Mr. Simpson be verbally abusive to Nicole?

# 2154 A:

No.

# 2155 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 2156

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2157 Q:

On June 3,1994, nine days before her death, Nicole wrote in notes which have been marked as Exhibit 86 as follows:

O.J. came to pick up kids at 8:30 p.m. This is June 3,1994.

They wanted to stay home because I let them organize slipovers at last minute. Thought daddy wasn't coming. Told O.J. I'd drop them off first thing in the morning. He said okay. Then you hung up on me last night. You're gonna pay for this bitch. You're holding money from the IRS. You're going to jail you fucking cunt. You think you can do any fricking thing you want. You've got it coming. I've already talked to my lawyers about this bitch. They'll get you for tax evasion bitch. I'll see to it. You're not gonna have a fucking dime," et cetera. This was all being said as Sydney's girlfriend Allegra was being dropped off. They may have already walked into the house. I'm not sure if they had heard all or any of it. I just turned around and walked away. Prior to Nicole's death did you learn of any argument between Nicole and Mr. Simpson along the description that Nicole wrote in her notes

# 2158 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, vague.

# 2159

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2160 Q:

like the one that I just described?

# 2161 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, vague, calls for speculation.

# 2162 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2163

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2164 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation, vague, compound.

# 2165 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2166

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2167 Q:

Did you ever hear Mr. Simpson refer to her as a bitch?

# 2168 A:

No.

# 2169 Q:

Or tell her she was a bitch?

# 2170 A:

I don't remember that.

# 2171 Q:

Prior to Nicole's death did you have any knowledge of an argument between the Simpsons regarding the IRS?

# 2172 A:

No.

# 2173 Q:

Or about Nicole using Rockingham as her address?

# 2174 A:

No.

# 2175 Q:

Or about Nicole having to sell the Bundy condominium?

# 2176 A:

No.

# 2177 Q:

Do you know who Allegra is?

# 2178 A:

No.

# 2179 Q:

Did you know any of Sydney's girlfriends prior to Nicole's death?

# 2180 A:

Cora's two daughters.

# 2181 Q:

What are their names?

# 2182 A:

One is named Nicole, and I can't think of the other one's name.

# 2183 Q:

And you do not know who this Allegra is; right?

# 2184 A:

No.

# 2185 Q:

Do you know of any reason why Nicole would make up such a thing?

# 2186 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative, calls for speculation, lack of foundation, vague.

# 2187 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2188

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2189 Q:

Were you in town on June 3, 1994? You had said previously that you had gone back to New York and spent some time with the Benders. Do you remember

# 2190 A:

I could have been. I don't know if I left prior to the weekend or I left that Monday. I really don't remember.

# 2191 Q:

Were you in town on June 4, 1994?

# 2192 A:

I don't remember.

# 2193 Q:

Did Nicole call you at any time in June to talk about O.J. Simpson's treatment of her?

# 2194 A:

No.

# 2195 Q:

Or problems that they were having?

# 2196 A:

No.

# 2197 Q:

Problems with the children?

# 2198 A:

No.

# 2199 Q:

Did she call you at any time in May or June of 1994 to ask for a favor regarding the children?

# 2200 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 2201 A.C. COWLINGS:

Could have. I don't remember.

KEY QUOTE

# 2202

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2203 Q:

Did you go to Sydney's communion?

# 2204 A:

No.

# 2205 Q:

Did you go to Justin's graduation from the Sunshine School?

# 2206 A:

No.

# 2207 Q:

Did you go to the picnic at the Simpsons' house on May 22 for Justin's Sunshine School?

# 2208 A:

I passed by there that day.

# 2209 Q:

Did you stop by?

# 2210 A:

Yeah.

# 2211 Q:

And when you stopped by, was Nicole still there?

# 2212 A:

I don't know who was there. I saw a lot of people and I noticed there wasit had the sign Sunshine, so I just turned around and walked away.

# 2213 Q:

So you never did go in?

# 2214 A:

No.

# 2215 Q:

Did you speak to Mr. Simpson that evening or the next day?

# 2216 A:

I don't know.

# 2217 Q:

Did he tell you that Nicole had returned jewelry that he bought for her?

# 2218 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 2219 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2220

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2221 Q:

Did he tell you that he had purchased an expensive bracelet for her? MR. LEONARD: Same objection.

# 2222 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2223

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2224 Q:

Do you have any knowledge whether or not he had bought her a gold Cartier cigarette lighter?

# 2225 DAN LEONARD:

Same objection.

# 2226 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2227

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2228 Q:

Mr. Simpson was against smoking; right?

# 2229 A:

He was against smoking in his house.

# 2230 Q:

Did he encourage, to your knowledge, Nicole not to smoke?

# 2231 A:

Yeah, he tried. He tried to encourage her.

# 2232 Q:

Did you ever know him to give Nicole a cigarette lighter?

# 2233 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 2234 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not that I know of.

# 2235

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2236 Q:

On SundayReferring again to Exhibit 86, Nicole's entry for Sunday, May 22,1994, this is the same day as you walked by the house when they were having that Sunshine picnic. Okay. This is later that evening. She writes, We've officially split. I told O.J. we're going back to every other weekend. I need the rest and O.J.'s gone so much he needs the alone time with them until he leaves again. Has been gone the last four weekends. So I've asked if we can start with him this weekend of May 28th. May 28 is Memorial Day weekend. Did you have any conversation with Nicole about what I just read to you?

# 2237 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 2238 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2239 DAN LEONARD:

Lack of foundation.

# 2240 A.C. COWLINGS:

I need to use the bathroom.

# 2241 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 12:07.

# 2242 (Recess taken.)

# 2243

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2244 Q:

Did you have any conversation with Mr. Simpson about the fact that he and Nicole had officially split up around May 22 or thereafter

# 2245 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 2246

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2247 Q:

1994?

# 2248 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, lack of foundation.

# 2249 A.C. COWLINGS:

Mother's Day he expressed that they had split up or he was considering splitting up.

# 2250

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2251 Q:

And on Mother's Day, which was May 8, he didn't tell you whose idea it was to split up and what the circumstances and reasons were; correct?

# 2252 DAN LEONARD:

I am going to object to that. I think that misstates his testimony.

# 2253 A.C. COWLINGS:

I really don't remember.

# 2254

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2255 Q:

You do not remember what he said; correct?

# 2256 A:

No, huh-uh.

# 2257 Q:

Correct?

# 2258 A:

Yes.

# 2259 Q:

What is that? Your pager?

# 2260 DONALD RE:

Yes.

# 2261 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Mr. Re's pager for the record. If Judge Ito were here you would be excluded from this deposition.

# 2262 DAN LEONARD:

No. He would have given him a couple shots.

# 2263 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No, I don't think so.

# 2264 Q:

The next item in Nicole's notes marked as Exhibit 86 says, "Blow up with Cora in car." Do you know anything about that?

# 2265 A:

No.

# 2266 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2267 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2268

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2269 Q:

Do you know anything about an argument between Mr. Simpson and Cora Fischman?

# 2270 A:

No.

# 2271 Q:

On May 28,1994 there is an entry that says, O.J. said he couldn't take the kids this weekend but he had them spend the night Friday night. Which would be May 27.

And then again Monday night, May 31 and took them to school. Saturday and Sunday they were with me. Flintstones, arcade, miniature golf. Does any of that ring a bell to you?

# 2272 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, lack of foundation.

# 2273 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2274 DAN LEONARD:

Did you say Monday the 31st, is that what you just read?

# 2275 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

That's what I just read, Monday night, May 31.

# 2276 DAN LEONARD:

Okay.

# 2277

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2278 Q:

Do you have a recollection, Mr. Cowlings, whether this trip where you took the kids to Palm Springs occurred before or after Mother's Day in 1994?

# 2279 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 2280 A.C. COWLINGS:

Huh-uh. I can't.

# 2281

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2282 Q:

The last item on Exhibit 86 says as follows, June 4, 9:00 a.m. I drove the kids over to Rockingham. No one answered. No one was home to take the kids, so I took them over again at 1:00 p.m. They spent the night. Do you have any knowledge about that? MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 2283 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2284

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2285 Q:

On Exhibit 86 there is an entry on the page bearing control No. 01879D. It says, Friday, March 5. A.C. picked up the kids bags for P.S. I took to school. A.C's picking them up at I can't read the next letter.

- R to take to P.S. O.J.'s pathetic. Can't even take his own kids down for the weekend. He'll never get it. kids came back 10:00 March 7. Had a great weekend. I'm so glad. Assuming that P.S. stands for Palm Springs-

# 2286 A:

Uh-huh.

# 2287 Q:

does March 1994 sound like the time when you took the kids to Palm Springs?

# 2288 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 2289 A.C. COWLINGS:

It could have been. BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2290 Q:

Did you take the kids home?

# 2291 A:

No.

# 2292 Q:

Do you know whether there was a golf tournament in Palm Springs that weekend?

# 2293 DONALD RE:

Can I just break for two minutes?

# 2294 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 12:19. (Recess taken.)

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 12:23.

# 2295

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2296 Q:

This incident in Palm Springs, could that have taken place in the year 1993 rather than 1994?

# 2297 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague as to "this incident," calls for speculation.

# 2298

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2299 Q:

The one where you took the children.

# 2300 A:

It could have been.

# 2301 Q:

I want to ask you some questions about an incident in January of 1988 which Nicole has described in Exhibit 87. First of all, have you ever seen this Exhibit 87?

# 2302 A:

No.

# 2303 Q:

Do you recall an incident in which Nicole wanted Mr. Simpson to go with her and Sydney to an ice skating event called Disney On Ice?

# 2304 DAN LEONARD:

I am going to object. Lack of foundation to the extent that the preamble prior to the question is incorporated into the question.

# 2305

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2306 Q:

You may answer.

# 2307 A:

No.

# 2308 Q:

Nicole after describing this ice skating event and the fact that Mr. Simpson didn't want to go then says, It started there. We went to the show and when we got back he was still gone. When he and A.C. got back A.C. seemed strange, like he was waiting for something to happen, that they might have discussed. He kissed Mama, Mini, but not me, which is weird for A.C. O.J. was drunk. Mama and Mini felt something too. They started to leave and O.J. started saying things about not being invited. No room for him. I said that he made excuses all week. Well, he followed Mini and Mama out the door rattling 100 miles per hour about what a liar I am. He never stopped. He followed Sydney and I around the house "Please, don't yell and scream in front of Sydney." So A.C. grabbed her. And I tried to get away from her so she wouldn't have to hear it. He never let up. You're a fat pig. You're disgusting. (I'm two months pregnant.) You're a slob. I want you out of my fucking house. Then I took Sydney to bed, tried to anyway. And he proceeded to cut me down with A.C. in the entry downstairs. I tried to tape the conversation but the recorder didn't work. He was saying all those things again so that I could hear every word as he was telling A.C. My wife's a fat ass, a liar. I stopped fucking other girls and now I jack off the fat ass.

He locked me out of our room and I buzzed him. Get out of my fucking house you fat ass liar. He opened the door and started off on me again. I want you to have an abortion with the baby. So I packed a few things together. He locked the door again. I buzzed. Do I really have to go tonight. Sydney is sleeping. It's late.

Let me tell you how serious I am. I have a gun in my hand right now. Get the fuck out of here. I got real scared and grabbed Sydney and the cats and a bag for her and a bottle and a pair of sweats from the laundry room for me and got the heck out of the house. Do you recall such an incident?

# 2309 A:

No.

# 2310 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation, vague, compound, argumentative.

# 2311 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2312

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2313 Q:

Do you recall any incident to your memory that is remotely similar to the one that Nicole described in Exhibit 87?

# 2314 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 2315 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2316

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2317 Q:

Do you recall any incident where you were with Nicole and Mama, who would be, I assume, Judy and Mini, who would be Dominique, with yourself and Mr. Simpson and Nicole when Nicole was pregnant with Justin?

# 2318 A:

Could have. I don't remember. We could have.

KEY QUOTE

# 2319 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 2320

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2321 Q:

Do you remember a time when you were with Mr. Simpson while Nicole was out with the family at an ice skating event?

# 2322 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 2323 A.C. COWLINGS:

No. It doesn't I don't remember anything like that.

# 2324

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2325 Q:

Do you remember an incident where these people were present and you took Sydney from Nicole or Mr. Simpson so she didn't have to hear an argument?

# 2326 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2327 A.C. COWLINGS:

No. The only incident I ever took Sydney away was when O.J. and her got into an argument out by the pool and that was when they were moving back into the house after they had the remodeling.

# 2328

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2329 Q:

Do youI'm sorry.

# 2330 A:

Go ahead.

# 2331 Q:

You testified about that already; right?

# 2332 A:

I have testified about that. A lot of this stuffNumber one, let me go on the record saying that if all of this stuff would have been taking place, I never would have stood for it.

# 2333 Q:

This stuff that I just read you?

# 2334 A:

Right.

# 2335 Q:

Meaning what? You would have done what? You would have told O.J. you are

# 2336 A:

Stop it.

# 2337 Q:

Stop it?

# 2338 A:

And it never would have happened.

# 2339 Q:

You wouldn't have let him scream

# 2340 A:

No.

# 2341 Q:

and rant and rave like this?

# 2342 A:

No. By no means.

# 2343 Q:

You would have removed him from the house?

# 2344 A:

I would have taken a walk and I would just say, "O.J., this is senseless" or Nicole would have asked me to take her away or whatever.

# 2345 Q:

And you expressed your feelings of similar feelings to Mr. Simpson following the '89 incident; right?

# 2346 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 2347 A.C. COWLINGS:

Pardon?

# 2348

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2349 Q:

Following the '89 incident you expressed similar feelings to Mr. Simpson as well; right?

# 2350 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 2351 A.C. COWLINGS:

Those things didn't happen in front of me. What you just read

# 2352

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2353 Q:

I see. You mean if it had happened in front of you

# 2354 A:

If it had happened in front of me, I wouldn't have allowed it to happen.

# 2355 Q:

Do you recall Mr. Simpson being upset with Nicole while she was pregnant with Justin because of weight gain?

# 2356 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 2357 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2358

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2359 Q:

Did he ever mention that to you?

# 2360 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 2361 A.C. COWLINGS:

Nicole was concerned about her weight after she had the baby. The Browns were concerned about Nicole's weight after she had the baby. O.J. did things on her behalf for her to get back in shape. There was a treadmill there. There was a Stairmaster, a membership to a health club, where he gave her a gift to go to one of these resorts for a week or two. I would go by at times and while she was on the Stairmaster Her and I, I would go by and I would do the treadmill and she would do the Stairmaster.

# 2362

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2363 Q:

To your knowledge you do not recall Mr. Simpson being unhappy with the weight gain?

# 2364 A:

Not that I remember.

# 2365 Q:

Do you recall Mr. Simpson ever talking to you about Nicole having an abortion?

# 2366 A:

No. I never heard that.

# 2367 Q:

Do you know whether Nicole had any abortions?

# 2368 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 2369 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have no knowledge of that.

# 2370

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2371 Q:

Would you be surprised to learn that she had at least four abortions during her relationship with Mr. Simpson?

# 2372 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 2373 A.C. COWLINGS:

That would be a surprise to me.

# 2374

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2375 Q:

Is that something that you would expect based on your relationship with Mr. Simpson for him to share with you?

# 2376 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative.

# 2377 A.C. COWLINGS:

To share what?

# 2378

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2379 Q:

To talk to you about.

# 2380 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative, lack of foundation.

# 2381 A.C. COWLINGS:

We talked about a lot of things.

# 2382 DAN LEONARD:

You have to let me finish my objection, please. Lack of foundation, argumentative, calls for speculation.

# 2383 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Can you repeat the question.

(The record was read as follows:

# 2384 Q:

Is that something that you would expect based on your relationship with Mr. Simpson for him to share with you?")

# 2385 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 2386

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2387 Q:

What I mean by "share," Mr. Cowlings, is to confide with you about it. Would you have expected him to tell you about something like that?

# 2388 DAN LEONARD:

Same objection.

# 2389 A.C. COWLINGS:

There is a lot of things that goes on between two people that stays between two people. Doesn't necessarily he has to tell his best friend.

# 2390

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2391 Q:

And you believe that that was true of O.J. Simpson and Nicole; right?

# 2392 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 2393

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2394 Q:

That they did not tell you everything that happened between them?

# 2395 A:

No, they did not tell me everything that happened.

# 2396 Q:

Do you know of any reason why Nicole would have written up an incident like this if it did not occur?

# 2397 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, argumentative.

# 2398 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have no idea.

# 2399

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2400 Q:

Now, following Mr. Simpson's arrest were you ever told by anyone about these notes of this incident?

# 2401 A:

No.

# 2402 Q:

This is the first time you have heard about them,

# 2403 DONALD RE:

You mean in the course of this deposition, because I think Mr. Kelly actually referred to them.

# 2404

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2405 Q:

Prior to the beginning of your deposition.

# 2406 A:

There were reports in the news media that notes of Nicole's

# 2407 Q:

Forgetting the news media, have you had any conversations with Mr. Simpson, with his lawyers, with anyone regarding incidents of abuse that are set forth in Nicole's notes?

# 2408 DAN LEONARD:

I just want to object. Vague as to time, particularly with regard to the privilege that has been asserted.

# 2409 DONALD RE:

Well, again, see, if you are phrasing the question with Mr. Simpson at any time, you are also including the period of time where they could be in the car or whatever? Because if you exclude that period of time

# 2410 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Well, include it. And you are going to take the privilege?

# 2411 DONALD RE:

Included we take the privilege.

KEY QUOTE

# 2412 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

So exclude it.

# 2413 DAN LEONARD:

It is also

# 2414 DONALD RE:

You previously indicated that you were excluding that period of time from yours questions.

# 2415 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

# 2416 DONALD RE:

and I assume that we are still in that exclusive period.

# 2417 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 2418 DAN LEONARD:

And it is also compound.

# 2419 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

You can answer the question now.

# 2420 DONALD RE:

He is talking about any time excluding the period we are excepting.

# 2421 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

After Simpson's arrest.

# 2422 A.C. COWLINGS:

Did I have any knowledge of these notes?

# 2423

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2424 Q:

Did you talk to anyone about them, such as with Mr. Simpson or his lawyers?

# 2425 A:

No.

# 2426 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 2427

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2428 Q:

Or about the events described in these notes?

# 2429 A:

No.

# 2430 DAN LEONARD:

Same objection.

# 2431

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2432 Q:

For example, did Mr. Shapiro or any of the lawyers come up to you and say, "Mr. Cowlings, we found these notes. They mention your name. Did this happen?

# 2433 A:

No. My first knowledge of any of Nicole's notes were in the New York Post or whatever paper back there. I was back there at work at the office and it was sitting on the front page or whatever.

# 2434 Q:

You said that was your first knowledge. But after that came out and you heard about those notes you skill didn't have any conversations with anybody; right?

# 2435 A:

No, no conversation.

# 2436 Q:

And have you ever spoken to Dominique or Judy about an argument involving the Simpsons following this ice event?

# 2437 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2438 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2439

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2440 Q:

The last note I have is Exhibit 89. It is a letter from Nicole to O.J. Did Nicole Withdrawn.

Let me just read the first paragraph.

O.J., I think I have to put this all in a letter. A lot of years ago I used to do much better in a letter. I am gonna try it again now. I'd like you to keep this letter if we split so that you'll always know why we split. I'd also like you to keep it if we stay together as a reminder.

Right now I am so angry. If I didn't know that the courts would take Sydney and Justin away from me if I did this, I would fuck every guy including some that you know just to let you know how it feels. This is a lengthy letter, all about the relationship between Nicole and O.J. Simpson. Let me ask you this: Have you ever seen this letter?

# 2441 A:

No.

# 2442 DAN LEONARD:

Let me object to the extent that the preamble is part of the question, compound, lack of foundation, vague, calls for speculation.

# 2443

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2444 Q:

Have you ever seen that, Mr. Cowlings?

# 2445 A:

No.

# 2446 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson ever tell you that he had received such a letter?

# 2447 A:

No.

# 2448 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you that she had written such a letter?

# 2449 A:

No.

Q Did Nicole ever tell you in words or in substance that she was as anW as she wrote in what I just read to you?

# 2450 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 2451 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2452

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2453 Q:

Did she ever confide in you that she was heart broken about Mr. Simpson's infidelity?

# 2454 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2455 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2456

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2457 Q:

Did Nicole ever talk to you about Mr. Simpson's infidelity?

# 2458 A:

No.

# 2459 Q:

Nicole goes on to talk about cheating by O.J. Simpson many times. Do you know of people that O.J. was seeing while he was married to Nicole?

# 2460 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2461 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember their names.

# 2462

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2463 Q:

Without knowing their names, are you aware generally that he was seeing other women in the course of his marriage to Nicole?

# 2464 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 2465 A.C. COWLINGS:

That was one of the major problems of their relationship.

# 2466

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2467 Q:

And your knowledge of those problems was based principally upon conversations with Mr. Simpson?

# 2468 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation, vague.

# 2469 A.C. COWLINGS:

And Nicole.

# 2470

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2471 Q:

Both of them?

# 2472 A:

Yes.

# 2473 Q:

In the course of those conversations did you come to learn the names of the women that Mr. Simpson had been seeing?

# 2474 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound.

# 2475 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember their names.

# 2476

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2477 Q:

Was Tawny Kitaen one of them?

# 2478 A:

I don't know.

# 2479 Q:

Do you know her? A: Yes.

# 2480 Q:

Is she a friend of yours?

# 2481 A:

No, but I know her.

# 2482 Q:

Did you ever have a heart-to-heart talk with Mr. Simpson about the fact that his cheating on Nicole was hurting her?

# 2483 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2484 A.C. COWLINGS:

At times.

# 2485

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2486 Q:

And what was his response?

# 2487 A:

He felt bad about it.

# 2488 Q:

Did he indicate why he would do it?

# 2489 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2490 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember what was his motivation.

# 2491

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2492 Q:

Did he say that he did it because he was unhappy with Nicole?

# 2493 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2494 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2495

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2496 Q:

Did he tell you that she did not satisfy him sexually?

# 2497 A:

Not that I remember

# 2498 Q:

Did he tell you that he would do it because of her pregnancies?

# 2499 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2500 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember.

# 2501

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2502 Q:

Did he give you any reason as to why he would cheat on Nicole?

# 2503 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2504 A.C. COWLINGS:

No, not really.

# 2505 THE REPORTER:

I'm sorry. "No, not really"?

# 2506 A.C. COWLINGS:

No, not really.

# 2507

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2508 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you that she wanted to get even with him because of his cheating?

# 2509 A:

Not that I can remember.

# 2510 Q:

Did you ever see Mr. Simpson demean Nicole's appearance?

# 2511 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 2512 A.C. COWLINGS:

No, not that I can remember.

# 2513

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2514 Q:

Was Mr. Simpson one who liked to keep a very organized home based on your knowledge of him?

# 2515 A:

Yes.

# 2516 Q:

And was Nicole on the sloppy side or messy side?

# 2517 A:

No.

# 2518 Q:

Did you ever see Mr. Simpson and Nicole argue about the fact that she wasn't neat or did not keep a neat house?

# 2519 A:

No. They had a maid there.

# 2520 Q:

One of the things that Nicole writes in here is as follows:

There was also that time before Justin and a few months after Sydney I felt really good about how I got back into shape. You beat the hell out of me and we lied at the X-ray lab and said I fell off a bike. Do you know of any such incident?

# 2521 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 2522 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2523

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2524 Q:

Neither of them ever told you about such an incident?

# 2525 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 2526 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

BY MR. PETROCELL

# 2527 Q:

In the next paragraph Nicole writes, There are a number of other instances that I could talk about that made my marriage so wonderful, like the televised Clipper game and going to Stellini's before the game and your 40th birthday party and the week leading up to it. But 1 don't like talking about the past. It depressed me. Did you go to Mr. Simpson's 40th birthday party?

# 2528 DAN LEONARD:

Objection to the extent that the preamble is considered part of the question. Object as lack of foundation.

# 2529 A.C. COWLINGS:

Yes. There was a celebration. Him and my birthdayMy birthday was included, I think something for Arnelle was included. It could have been four or five things that revolved around that party.

# 2530

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2531 Q:

Where was this party?

# 2532 A:

At the Rockingham house.

When was it? In July of 19

# 2533 A:

It could have been.

# 2534 Q:

July; right?

# 2535 A:

Yeah, July.

# 2536 Q:

When was Mr. Simpson born?

# 2537 A:

July 9.

# 2538 DAN LEONARD:

I was trying to do the math myself.

# 2539

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2540 Q:

What year was he born?

# 2541 A:

'47.

# 2542 Q:

So this would have been July 1987?

# 2543 A:

I don't know if the party was exactly on that date, but it was sometime around that period.

# 2544 Q:

Now, do you recall any incident at that party that made Nicole upset?

# 2545 A:

Later on I found out.

# 2546 Q:

What did you find out?

# 2547 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.

# 2548 A.C. COWLINGS:

There was some girls there that she suspected that O.J. was having an affair with.

# 2549

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2550 A:

I don't remember.

# 2551 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 2552

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2553 Q:

And who told you that she got upset because of this?

# 2554 A:

She told me.

# 2555 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson also tell you?

# 2556 A:

No.

# 2557 Q:

Do you know about a televised Clipper game and going to Stellini's before the game?

# 2558 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound, vague, lack of foundation.

# 2559 A.C. COWLINGS:

I mean, it doesn't It is somethingI really don't know.

# 2560

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2561 Q:

It does not ring a bell at all?

# 2562 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 2563 A.C. COWLINGS:

He goes to Stellini's and he goes to basketball games. For what reason you asked me that question, I have no idea.

# 2564

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2565 Q:

I am trying to figure out what Nicole was referring to when she wrote it in her notes.

# 2566 A:

That I don't know.

# 2567 Q:

You do not recall any kind of incident regarding a televised Clipper game; is that right?

# 2568 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, lack of foundation.

# 2569 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2570

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2571 Q:

In the next paragraph Nicole writes, Then came the pregnancy with Justin and oh, how wonderfully you treated me again. I remember swearing to God and myself that under no circumstances would I let you be in that delivery room. I hated you so much. Did Mr. Simpson tell you about Nicole's desire that he not be in the delivery room.'

# 2572 A:

No.

# 2573 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 2574

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2575 Q:

Were you there during Justin's birth?

# 2576 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Excuse me.

# 2577 DONALD RE:

He has to object.

# 2578 DAN LEONARD:

I need an opportunity to object.

# 2579 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Please.

# 2580 DAN LEONARD:

I am objecting to the previous question. I was not given an opportunity to do so. I am objecting that it is vague, lack of foundation, especially the preamble and including the preamble.

# 2581

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2582 Q:

Did you attendDid you go to the hospital when Justin was born?

# 2583 A:

Yes.

# 2584 Q:

And do you know whether Mr. Simpson was in the delivery room for the birth of Justin?

# 2585 A:

I guess so. I don't really remember. Excuse me.

# 2586 Q:

What hospital was it?

# 2587 A:

St. John's, I think.

# 2588 Q:

When you went there, was Mr. Simpson already there, or was he there at all?

# 2589 A:

He was there. I don't know if he was already there or we got there together.

# 2590 Q:

With regard to the 1989 incident Nicole writes in part, I called the cops to save my life whether you believe it or not, but I did not pursue anything after that. I didn't prosecute. I didn't call the press and didn't make a big charade out of it. I waited for it to die down and asked for it too, but I've never loved you since or been the same. Did you have any conversations with Nicole about her refusal to prosecute or call the press?

# 2591 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, compound, calls for speculation, argumentative, and vague.

# 2592 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 2593

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2594 Q:

Did you have any conversations with Mr. Simpson about that?

# 2595 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 2596 A.C. COWLINGS:

It could have been I don't know how longhow far along it was, I read about it in the paper when it finally hit the newspaper. I called him, and he said that people downtown insisted on her filing charges. She didn't want to.

# 2597

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2598 Q:

Was that the extent of the conversation?

# 2599 A:

It was in the early morning. I was on my way to work.

# 2600 Q:

Was he upset about it?

# 2601 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 2602 A.C. COWLINGS:

He was bothered.

# 2603 DAN LEONARD:

Calls for speculation.

# 2604

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2605 Q:

you may answer now.

# 2606 A:

He was bothered by it.

# 2607 Q:

Did he indicate, Mr. Cowlings, what he intended to do about it?

# 2608 A:

Whatever the authorities was going to ask.

# 2609 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you that she never loved Mr. Simpson since the '89 incident?

# 2610 A:

No. She has always expressed her love for O.J.

# 2611 Q:

Even after the 1989 incident?

# 2612 A:

Yes.

# 2613 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson ever tell you that Nicole was not the same after the 1989 incident?

# 2614 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2615 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not that I know of.

# 2616

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2617 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson ever tell you that at any time following the 1989 incident that Nicole would not have sex with him?

# 2618 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2619 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember him saying that.

# 2620

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2621 Q:

Or that their sex life had suffered or was suffering?

# 2622 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2623 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember.

# 2624

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2625 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 2626 A.C. COWLINGS:

I heard that. I don't know for sure.

# 2627

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2628 Q:

And did you talk to Mr. Simpson about the fact that hethat Nicole wanted him to take an AIDS test?

# 2629 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 2630 A.C. COWLINGS:

Like I say, I heard of that. I don't know too much more about it.

# 2631

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2632 Q:

You heard about that from Mr. Simpson?

# 2633 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 2634 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know who I if I heard it from him or heard it from Nicole.

BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Or both?

# 2635 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative

# 2636 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember.

# 2637 DAN LEONARD:

calls for speculation.

# 2638 DONALD RE:

Let him

# 2639 A.C. COWLINGS:

Oh, I'm sorry.

# 2640

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2641 Q:

Do you know whether Mr. Simpson took an AIDS test?

# 2642 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 2643 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 2644

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2645 Q:

Do you know whether Mr. Simpson knew anybody who could get him an AIDS test?

# 2646 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 2647 A.C. COWLINGS:

That I don't know.

# 2648

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2649 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson ever tell you that Nicole had changed after the children were born in the sense that she was not willing to go out so much?

# 2650 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, lack of foundation.

# 2651 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know. I never heard that.

# 2652

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2653 Q:

Or she was not willing to host as many parties and have people over as she had been before the babies were born?

# 2654 DAN LEONARD:

Same objection.

# 2655 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 2656

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2657 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson ever tell you that Nicole would cancel on functions at the last minute?

# 2658 A:

Not that I know of.

# 2659 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

That's all I have for now.

# 2660

EXAMINATION

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

A.C. Cowlings

Privilege.

Cowlings' blanket invocation covering all conversations with OJ Simpson following the murders, including after his release from jail — a wall that Petrocelli methodically documented on the record.

A.C. Cowlings

No different than any other time. He just said that he felt it was over.

Cowlings' account of OJ telling him his relationship with Nicole was finished — on or around Mother's Day, May 8, 1994, roughly five weeks before the murders.

A.C. Cowlings

The thought did not enter my mind. I was back there just looking.

Cowlings denies ever considering that OJ could have cut his finger on the fence behind Kato's room — a conspicuously narrow answer given why a defense investigator would take him there.

Michael Brewer

Inspirational.

Dry aside after Cowlings revealed Shapiro showed him a boxing video of himself during their first post-arrest meeting ostensibly about finding financial help for Simpson's defense.

A.C. Cowlings

I don't remember.

Repeated in rapid succession when asked whether he'd seen or spoken to Marcus Allen in the last 30 days, two weeks, one week, or yesterday — strongly implying recent contact Cowlings did not want to acknowledge.

Evidence (1)

Plaintiffs' 207

Document identifying a high-profile individual Shapiro asked Cowlings to approach as a potential financial contributor to Simpson's defense; name redacted from public transcript at Cowlings' request

marked for identification, withheld from public record by agreement

Notable Exchanges (4)

Daniel Petrocelli•Donald Re•A.C. Cowlings

Extended on-the-record colloquy establishing the full scope of the privilege claim: all conversations between Cowlings and Simpson from the murders to the present day (including after Simpson's release from jail) are privileged. Petrocelli methodically extracted this blanket assertion for the record.

strategic

Daniel Petrocelli•A.C. Cowlings

Petrocelli asks whether Cowlings saw or spoke to Marcus Allen in the last 30 days, two weeks, one week, or even yesterday — receiving 'I don't remember' to every iteration, implying Cowlings is protecting Allen ahead of his subpoenaed testimony.

revealing

Daniel Petrocelli•A.C. Cowlings

Cowlings describes going behind Kato's room with a defense investigator who hit the stucco wall but denies any thought ever crossed his mind that someone could cut a finger on the fence — while conceding he examined the entire fence.

strategic

A.C. Cowlings•Daniel Petrocelli

Cowlings requests a brief off-the-record conference, after which Petrocelli agrees to identify the Exhibit 207 person only as 'the person' and keep the exhibit out of the public transcript.

revealing

Light Moments (3)

Michael Brewer

After Cowlings describes Shapiro showing him a personal boxing video during their post-arrest meeting about Simpson's defense funding, co-counsel Brewer deadpans 'Inspirational.'

Dan Leonard

Petrocelli accidentally says '1981' when he means 1989 (the New Year's Day domestic violence incident); Leonard corrects him mid-sentence.

Dan Leonard

Petrocelli corrects himself calling Justin Simpson by the wrong name ('Arnelle and Justin had a barbecue') — Leonard interjects 'Jason.'

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ A.C. Cowlings

implausible memory gaps

Petrocelli methodically escalated the timeframe of Marcus Allen contact questions (30 days → 2 weeks → 1 week → yesterday), making Cowlings' uniform 'I don't remember' answers appear evasive rather than genuine.

⚔ A.C. Cowlings

prior inconsistent statement / bias

Petrocelli established that Cowlings visited the back alley behind Kato's room with a defense investigator, examined the fence, and reported back to his attorney — framing his 'I was just looking' testimony as minimizing an active role in building Simpson's defense theory.

⚔ A.C. Cowlings

bias / coordination

Petrocelli documented that Cowlings attended the Shapiro media-control meeting, helped Shapiro reach Nicole's friends via three-way calls, and arranged a meeting with a potential defense financier — painting Cowlings as a Simpson defense operative rather than a neutral witness.

Witness Demeanor

(Witness shakes head) — when shown investigator names (Dresden, Hosteller)

Repeated 'I don't remember' cadence accelerating under Marcus Allen questioning — noted in transcript by density of consecutive identical answers

Cowlings interrupts himself mid-answer: 'A few days after — Excuse me?' suggesting disorientation or caution when pressed on timing

Objections

38 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

2 Direct examination of Allen Cowlings by Michael Brewer

Examiner: Michael Brewer • Type: direct • 111 utterances

🛡️ Dan Leonard

Mr. Brewer cross-examines A.C. Cowlings about his post-arrest effort to gather intelligence on Nicole's lifestyle by contacting her friends Cora Fischman, Cici, and Robin Greer. The examination reveals that Cowlings was acting as an informal investigator for the defense, and ends with a potentially damaging moment: Cowlings cannot deny telling Cora Fischman that he initially believed O.J. Simpson was responsible for Nicole's death.

# 1

BY MR. BREWER:

# 2 Q:

Mr. Cowlings, let's see if we can set a world record and get out of here.

# 3 DAN LEONARD:

But in doing that, allow me to interject an objection.

# 4 MICHAEL BREWER:

Wait a minute. That is not part of the deal.

# 5 Q:

In reference to the meeting that you had at Mr. Shapiro's office where there were a number of Mr. Simpson's close friends present, you indicated that Mr. Shapiro instructed those that were present not to talk to the media.

# 6 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 7

BY MR. BREWER:

# 8 Q:

Do you recall that conversation?

# 9 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound, lack of foundation.

# 10 A.C. COWLINGS:

Yes.

# 11

BY MR. BREWER:

# 12 Q:

Was there also a discussion about people staying together, supporting O.J. Simpson during this difficult ordeal that he was about to embark upon?

# 13 DONALD RE:

No objection. Go ahead.

# 14 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 15 DAN LEONARD:

I fooled you.

# 16 A.C. COWLINGS:

No. I don't remember if that was stated.

# 17

BY MR. BREWER:

# 18 Q:

Supporting O.J., anything of that nature?

# 19 A:

I was going to support him.

# 20 Q:

Was there any discussion or instruction in that regard from Mr. Shapiro?

# 21 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound.

# 22 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not that II don't remember if there was.

# 23

BY MR. BREWER:

# 24 Q:

How about from anyone else there, did anyone say, "Hey need to support O.J., let's stick together," something of that nature that was said by anyone during the course that meeting?

# 25 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound.

# 26 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not that I can remember.

# 27

BY MR. BREWER:

# 28 Q:

And after that meeting you embarked upon a series of discussions with some of Nicole's friends Cici, Robin, and Coratrue?

# 29 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. That misstates his prior testimony.

# 30 A.C. COWLINGS:

It could haveMy conversations with them could have happened before that meeting.

# 31

BY MR. BREWER:

# 32 Q:

And the reason why you spoke with them was you just wanted to find out what was going on in Nicole's life; is that correct?

# 33 A:

What type of people that they were hanging out with.

# 34 Q:

And it was also your intention that to the extent that you found any information that you thought was pertinent in so far as it could assist Mr. Simpson, you were going to turn that information over; is that a fair statement?

# 35 A:

Yes, if I found something out, yes.

# 36 Q:

And you spoke at length with Cora, Cici, and Robin in an effort to find out this information; right?

# 37 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, compound.

# 38 A.C. COWLINGS:

No, I didn't speak to them at length. Most of themYou know, it was just Cora I probably spoke with the longest. The other two I didn't speak to them that much. They didn't know too much. Robin Greer claimed that she wasn't around. Cici said she wasn't around. And then when I spoke to Cora, Cora said that Faye Resnick had called them all and told them that they all had to stick together and not to talk to anybody.

# 39

BY MR. BREWER:

# 40 Q:

Did you find Cora to be forthcoming with you

# 41 A:

Yes.

# 42 Q:

concerning information? And did you find Cici to be forthcoming

# 43 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 44

BY MR. BREWER:

# 45 Q:

to the extent that she knew or did not know anything about Nicole's lifestyle at the time that she was killed?

# 46 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, vague.

# 47 A.C. COWLINGS:

She was somewhat vague. I mean, she wouldn't go into any, you know, nothingjust the fact that she was not around that much.

# 48

BY MR. BREWER:

# 49 Q:

Was it your impression that she was vague because she did not know a lot or that she was not being forthcoming in your conversation?

# 50 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, vague.

# 51 A.C. COWLINGS:

That I don't know. She expressed that her father had passed in that area or maybe a little bit before and that she was still somewhat bothered by that.

# 52

BY MR. BREWER:

# 53 Q:

And similarly, with respect to Robin, was it your impression that she was forthcoming with respect to whatever information she did or did not have

# 54 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 55

BY MR. BREWER:

# 56 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, vague, compound.

# 57 A.C. COWLINGS:

No. Robin seemed like she was somewhat vague.

# 58

BY MR. BREWER:

# 59 Q:

Go ahead.

# 60 A:

That was it.

# 61 Q:

Was it your impression that she was vague because she was holding back or that she just didn't know a lot about Nicole's lifestyle that would be helpful to you?

# 62 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 63 A.C. COWLINGS:

She could have been holding back.

# 64

BY MR. BREWER:

# 65 Q:

Did you form that impression at the time that you spoke with her?

# 66 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 67 A.C. COWLINGS:

She chose not to say, you know, certain things, so I didn't push the issue.

# 68

BY MR. BREWER:

# 69 Q:

And were you under any specific instruction from anyone to talk to Nicole's friends?

# 70 A:

No.

# 71 Q:

And as a result of all of these conversations, you never communicated the substance of these conversations to anyone; is that true?

# 72 A:

There was nothing to talk about. I mean, there was nothing there.

# 73 Q:

For example, Cora Fischman never indicated to you that Nicole was living a dangerous lifestyle, did she?

# 74 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 75 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not that I can remember.

# 76

BY MR. BREWER:

# 77 Q:

And if she had mentioned that to you, that would be significant information to you, wouldn't it?

R.LEONARD: Objection. Vague.

# 78 A.C. COWLINGS:

Yes.

# 79

BY MR. BREWER:

# 80 Q:

That would be something that you would want to pass along because that may provide information that would explain who may be responsible for Nicole's death; is that true?

# 81 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague -

# 82 A.C. COWLINGS:

That's true.

# 83 DAN LEONARD:

compound.

# 84

BY MR. BREWER:

# 85 Q:

Did Cora Fischman ever tell you that Nicole was hanging around people that she thought was dangerous people?

# 86 A:

Cora said that they had a falling out her and Nicole because of the relationship between Faye and Nicole had somewhat came in between Cora and Nicole's relationship, and she was bothered by it and that her and Nicole talked about it, and Nicole expressed to her that she is her best friend, always was her best friend, and you know, so they were able to put that aside.

# 87 Q:

Did Cora tell you that as a result of this falling out that she really wasn't in a position to provide you with any information regarding Nicole's lifestyle at or near the time that she was killed?

# 88 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound, vague

# 89 A.C. COWLINGS:

She couldn't because I'm sorry.

# 90 DAN LEONARD:

calls for speculation.

# 91 A.C. COWLINGS:

No, she couldn't because she said she didn't go out that much with them, if she went out with them at all.

# 92

BY MR. BREWER:

# 93 Q:

And therefore Cora really, at least as far as you could tell, was not in a position to provide any information that was useful to you in understanding what was going on in Nicole's life at or near the time of her death; is that true?

# 94 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, compound, calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 95 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know what Cora knew or what she was willing to tell me or if she held back. I really couldn't answer that.

KEY QUOTE

# 96

BY MR. BREWER:

# 97 Q:

But she specifically told you that she was not going out or really wasn't socializing a lot with Nicole at or near the time of her death; true?

# 98 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 99 A.C. COWLINGS:

That I don't know if they were seeing each other during the day or during the early evening. I couldn't tell you.

# 100

BY MR. BREWER:

# 101 Q:

Did she tell you anything with respect to the frequency with which she was seeing Nicole at or near her time of death?

# 102 A:

No.

# 103 Q:

Did you ever tell Cora during this walk that you took with her that you thought initially that O.J. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 104 A:

No.

# 105 Q:

If Cora Fischman were to testify under oath that you told her during this walk that you firstat first thought that O.J. was responsible for Nicole's death, would that be an untrue statement?

# 106 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative, lack of foundation.

# 107 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know. I know she asked me, and I told her that he was innocent.

# 108

BY MR. BREWER:

# 109 Q:

My question to you is: If Cora Fischman testified under oath that during this walk you told her that you initially thought that O.J. Simpson was responsible for Nicole's death but had since changed your mind, would that be a false or untrue statement on her part?

# 110 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative, lack of foundation.

# 111 A.C. COWLINGS:

I could have said it. I don't remember

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

A.C. Cowlings

Cora said that Faye Resnick had called them all and told them that they all had to stick together and not to talk to anybody.

Alleges witness coordination by Faye Resnick against the defense, explaining why Nicole's friends were uncooperative — cuts both ways as it also suggests the defense side expected coordinated silence.

A.C. Cowlings

I could have said it. I don't remember.

Cowlings cannot deny telling Cora Fischman he initially believed OJ killed Nicole — a significant admission that undermines his credibility as a loyal defender of Simpson's innocence.

A.C. Cowlings

I don't know what Cora knew or what she was willing to tell me or if she held back. I really couldn't answer that.

Cowlings acknowledges the limits of his own intelligence-gathering and implicitly concedes he may not have gotten the full story from Nicole's friends.

Dan Leonard

I fooled you.

Rare moment of courtroom levity — Leonard waived an objection and ribbed the witness when Cowlings appeared to brace for one.

Evidence (3)

Informal

Meeting with Robert Shapiro and others after Simpson's arrest, where defense team assembled

discussed

Informal

Cowlings' conversations with Cora Fischman, Cici, and Robin Greer about Nicole's lifestyle

discussed

Informal

Faye Resnick's alleged phone calls to Nicole's friends instructing them not to talk to anyone

discussed

Notable Exchanges (3)

MR. BREWER•A.C. Cowlings

Brewer establishes that Cowlings was acting as an informal defense investigator, interviewing Nicole's friends with the explicit intent to pass useful information to O.J. Simpson's team.

strategic

MR. BREWER•A.C. Cowlings

Brewer closes with a hypothetical impeachment: if Cora Fischman testified Cowlings said he initially thought OJ was guilty, would that be false? Cowlings answers 'I could have said it. I don't remember,' leaving the admission hanging.

devastating

A.C. Cowlings•MR. BREWER

Cowlings volunteers that Faye Resnick called Nicole's friends telling them all to stick together and not talk — an unsolicited detail that reframes the friends' vagueness as coordinated stonewalling.

revealing

Light Moments (1)

Dan Leonard

Leonard passed on an objection, causing Cowlings to pause mid-answer. Leonard quipped 'I fooled you,' drawing a beat of unscripted humor in an otherwise grinding examination.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ A.C. Cowlings

prior inconsistent statement (via third party)

Brewer sets up Cora Fischman as a future witness who could testify that Cowlings told her he initially believed OJ was responsible for Nicole's death. Cowlings cannot deny it, saying only 'I could have said it. I don't remember.'

⚔ A.C. Cowlings

bias / interest in outcome

Brewer establishes Cowlings was actively gathering intelligence for the defense team — framing him not as a neutral friend but as a motivated actor working to help OJ.

Witness Demeanor

Cowlings answers are short and often hedged ('Not that I can remember,' 'I don't know')

He volunteers the Faye Resnick detail unprompted, suggesting some eagerness to explain the friends' vagueness

His final answer — 'I could have said it. I don't remember' — is notably undefended, a departure from his otherwise cautious hedging

Objections

20 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

3 Direct examination of Allen Cowlings by Daniel Petrocelli

Examiner: Daniel Petrocelli • Type: direct • 6 utterances

A brief redirect exchange in which Petrocelli pressed A.C. Cowlings to clarify whether he had a specific memory of making a statement to Cora Fischman during a walk, or was merely conceding the possibility. Cowlings answered that he did not remember, and his counsel objected.

# 1

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2 Q:

Okay.

# 3 A:

but I could have said it.

KEY QUOTE

# 4 Q:

When you say that you could have said it, let's see if we can differentiate that answer. Do you have a specific memory as you sit here today of making that statement or a similar statement to Cora Fischman during the course of this walk?

# 5 A:

I don't remember.

# 6 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, compound.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (2)

A.C. Cowlings

I don't remember.

Cowlings cannot confirm a specific prior statement to Cora Fischman, undermining its evidentiary weight.

A.C. Cowlings

but I could have said it.

Cowlings hedges — acknowledging possibility without asserting actual memory, a distinction Petrocelli immediately moves to exploit.

Notable Exchanges (1)

MR. PETROCELLI•A.C. Cowlings

Petrocelli attempts to pin down whether Cowlings has actual memory of a statement to Cora Fischman or is only conceding it's possible; Cowlings says he doesn't remember.

strategic

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ A.C. Cowlings

prior inconsistent statement

Petrocelli probes whether Cowlings actually made a statement to Cora Fischman or is merely acknowledging the possibility, attempting to expose a gap between 'could have said it' and confirmed memory.

Objections

1 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

4 Direct examination of Allen Cowlings by Michael Brewer

Examiner: Michael Brewer • Type: direct • 49 utterances

🛡️ Dan Leonard

Brewer presses A.C. Cowlings on whether he suspected OJ Simpson was responsible for Nicole's death, drawing on the 1989 domestic violence incident. Cowlings hedges carefully throughout — acknowledging the thought 'could have entered his mind' while refusing to commit to any direct accusation. The exchange culminates in a careful distinction: Nicole told him she was hit, but never told him specifically who hit her.

# 1

BY MR. BREWER:

# 2 Q:

So when you say that you could have said it, are you saying that based upon your recollection of how you felt at or near the time that you took this walk with Cora?

# 3 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 4 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't understand the question.

# 5 MICHAEL BREWER:

Bad question.

# 6 Q:

When you say it is something that you could have said, meaning it is possible that you could have told Cora this, is that because you had those feelings?

# 7 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 8 A.C. COWLINGS:

I probably had the feelings early on.

BY MR. BREWER: Q: Okay. That Mr. Simpson was responsible or could tee responsible for Nicole's death; true?

# 9 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, calls for speculation

# 10 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 11 DAN LEONARD:

compound.

THEWITNESS: Sorry.

# 12 DAN LEONARD:

Go ahead.

# 13 A.C. COWLINGS:

The thought could have entered my mind.

KEY QUOTE

# 14

BY MR. BREWER:

# 15 Q:

And when you say the thought could have entered your mind, is that because you had some knowledge with respect to the violent nature of their relationship in so far as you were a direct observer of some of the events in 1989?

# 16 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, compound.

# 17 A.C. COWLINGS:

There was only one event in '89.

# 18

BY MR. BREWER:

# 19 Q:

Where he had struck her; correct?

# 20 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 21 A.C. COWLINGS:

I never saw it.

# 22 DAN LEONARD:

Lack of foundation.

# 23 A.C. COWLINGS:

Something happened.

# 24

BY MR. BREWER:

# 25 Q:

Well, based upon what you saw and what you were told, you came to the conclusion that she was hit; true?

# 26 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative, compound, lack of foundation.

# 27 A.C. COWLINGS:

That was her statement that she said she was hit.

# 28

BY MR. BREWER:

# 29 Q:

Well, did you think that she was lying?

# 30 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative

# 31 A.C. COWLINGS:

I didn't question it.

# 32 DAN LEONARD:

lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 33 A.C. COWLINGS:

Sorry.

# 34

BY MR. BREWER:

# 35 Q:

And when she told you that she was hit, what she was describing was the history with respect to what has been characterized as a concussion or swelling on her forehead; true?

# 36 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, compound, calls for speculation.

# 37 A.C. COWLINGS:

Like I have stated, I don't know how it got there. She could have been hit, she could have fell, she could have bumped her head.

# 38

BY MR. BREWER:

# 39 Q:

You know, Mr. Cowlings, sometimes when people explain, give a history with respect to a condition, you may not believe them for whatever reason, and the question I am asking you is: You are looking at a big bruise or swelling on her forehead. She told you that she was hit causing that bruise. Is there anything about what she told you or what you observed that caused you to disbelieve what she was telling you concerning the source of that injury?

# 40 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, carts for speculation.

# 41 DONALD RE:

And I think that the problem is that it is misstating his prior testimony, and the one phrase in there that misstates it isand I think it is what we have gotten hung up on that the hit caused the bruise. In other words, what I think he testified to was she said she was hit. She did have a bruise. And I think he testified that the bruise could have been caused by a hit, it could have been caused by a fall, it could have been caused by another thing, so I would just simply object to that.

# 42

BY MR. BREWER:

# 43 Q:

Well, given that, let me just make sure that I understand this. You were told in the course of that day by Nicole that she was hit; true?

# 44 A:

Right.

# 45 Q:

You observed that she had injuries on her person; true?

# 46 A:

I observed early on redness in her face. Later on that evening there was some swelling.

# 47 Q:

Did you have any reason to disbelieve her when she told you that she was hit by Mr. Simpson?

# 48 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative, lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 49 A.C. COWLINGS:

She didn't tell me where she was hit. She just said she was hit.

KEY QUOTE

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

A.C. Cowlings

The thought could have entered my mind.

The closest Brewer gets to Cowlings admitting he suspected OJ — immediately after being asked if he thought OJ was responsible for Nicole's death.

A.C. Cowlings

I never saw it. Something happened.

Cowlings simultaneously distances himself from the 1989 incident while acknowledging its reality — a carefully split admission.

A.C. Cowlings

She could have been hit, she could have fell, she could have bumped her head.

Cowlings introduces alternative explanations for Nicole's injury, undermining the foundation Brewer is trying to build.

A.C. Cowlings

She didn't tell me where she was hit. She just said she was hit.

The final answer of the proceeding — a precise semantic distinction that stops Brewer from putting OJ's name in Nicole's mouth through Cowlings.

Evidence (1)

Informal

Nicole Brown Simpson's injuries from the 1989 domestic incident — described as redness and later swelling on her forehead

discussed

Notable Exchanges (2)

Donald Re•Michael Brewer

Re interrupts with a speaking objection arguing Brewer is misstating Cowlings' prior testimony by conflating 'she said she was hit' with 'the hit caused the bruise' — drawing a precise factual distinction on behalf of the witness.

strategic

Michael Brewer•A.C. Cowlings

Brewer asks repeatedly whether Cowlings had any reason to disbelieve Nicole's account; Cowlings ultimately deflects by noting she never named who hit her.

strategic

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ A.C. Cowlings

prior statements / implied prior belief

Brewer uses Cowlings' reported statement to Cora (that OJ 'could have been responsible') to suggest Cowlings privately believed in OJ's guilt, contradicting his protective public posture toward Simpson.

Witness Demeanor

Witness hedges consistently, volunteering qualifications ('could have,' 'probably,' 'early on')

Witness apologizes mid-answer after speaking over a pending objection ('Sorry.')

Witness states 'I don't understand the question' at the outset, prompting Brewer to withdraw and rephrase

Objections

10 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

5 Direct examination of Allen Cowlings by Daniel Petrocelli

Examiner: Daniel Petrocelli • Type: direct • 4 utterances

A brief redirect examination in which Petrocelli pressed A.C. Cowlings on whether he believed Nicole Simpson when she told him she had been hit. Cowlings conceded he did not question her account, implicitly accepting it as true.

# 1

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2 Q:

When she said, "I was hit," did you disbelieve her?

# 3 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 4 A.C. COWLINGS:

I didn't question her.

KEY QUOTE

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (2)

Daniel Petrocelli

When she said, 'I was hit,' did you disbelieve her?

Frames Cowlings' silence as tacit acceptance of Nicole's abuse claim, implicating OJ.

A.C. Cowlings

I didn't question her.

Cowlings admits he took Nicole's statement at face value, lending credibility to her account of being struck.

Notable Exchanges (1)

Daniel Petrocelli•A.C. Cowlings

Petrocelli elicits that Cowlings never doubted Nicole when she said she was hit, reinforcing the domestic violence narrative through OJ's closest friend.

strategic

Objections

1 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

6 Direct examination of Allen Cowlings by Michael Brewer

Examiner: Michael Brewer • Type: direct • 612 utterances

🛡️ Dan Leonard 📜 Michael Brewer 👤 Donald Re 📜 Daniel Petrocelli

Mr. Brewer recrosses A.C. Cowlings on several fronts: the 1989 domestic violence incident and its aftermath, a confusing New York hotel episode where Simpson summoned Cowlings to mediate with Nicole, and the timeline of the Rose Bowl — which turns out to have been January 2nd, not the 1st, prompting Petrocelli to call USC's sports information office mid-deposition to confirm. The session also probes Cowlings' knowledge of a Kardashian-Schiller book collaboration and whether Cowlings ever discussed evidence locations with Simpson's inner circle, with Re repeatedly asserting privilege over those communications.

# 1

BY MR. BREWER:

# 2 Q:

Okay. And you did not question her because you believed that she was telling you the truth; correct?

# 3 DAN LEONARD:

Argumentative and same objections.

HE WITNESS: I was concerned about her well-being.

# 4

BY MR. BREWER:

# 5 A:

I was not happy with the situation. He was wrong.

# 6 Q:

And he was wrong because as you testified earlier you felt it was wrong for a men to hit a woman; true.

# 7 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

THEWITNESS: Any man to put his hand

# 8 DAN LEONARD:

Lack of foundation.

# 9 A.C. COWLINGS:

Any man to put his hand on a woman.

# 10

BY MR. BREWER:

# 11 Q:

So what Mr. Simpson did in connection with this '89 incident ran counter to what you believed was right v vis how a man should treat a woman; true?

# 12 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 13 A.C. COWLINGS:

That's not howI wouldn't treat a woman that way.

# 14

BY MR. BREWER:

# 15 A:

And as a result of this incident you said that you thought that Mr. Simpson was wrong, but did that change the nature of your relationship, that you were not as friendly with him, you didn't see him as often, anything of that nature?

# 16 A:

No. We cared about each other. I still had my great love. I just stopped going around because they were getting back together, it seemed like, and they had things, you know, to work out.

# 17 Q:

The less frequent visits to Rockingham with Nicole and Mr. Simpson, was that because of a change in your - feeling about Mr. Simpson or that you wanted to give them an opportunity to kind of sort out own problems?

# 18 A:

I felt bad for both of them, and I felt that they needed time to sort it out, whatever differences that they were having.

# 19 Q:

And when you state Strike that.

When you made the sacrifice not to go to the Rose Bowl that evening in order to be available for Nicole, Mr. Simpson went to the Rose Bowl?

# 20 A:

It was not a sacrifice. I didn't feel like going.

# 21 Q:

Had you not planned to go to the Rose owl that day?

# 22 A:

I was planning on going. I have been to Rose Bowls before. I mean, one Rose Bowls like any other. It was no major thing that I had to go.

# 23 Q:

Would it be a fair statement to say that had this incident not occurred you probably would have gone to the Rose Bowl that evening?

# 24 A:

I probably would havewould have gone, yes.

# 25 Q:

And the principal reason why you did not go was because you wanted to be available for Nicole; true?

# 26 A:

I feel bad about the whole situation.

# 27 Q:

You felt bad enough that you didn't go to the Rose Bowl that evening; true?

# 28 A:

I didn't feel like going.

# 29 Q:

And Mr. Simpson did go; right?

# 30 A:

Yes, he did.

# 31 Q:

And how did you feel about that?

# 32 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 33 A.C. COWLINGS:

I didn't give it any thought. O.J. did what he thought that he had to do.

# 34

BY MR. BREWER:

# 35 Q:

Did you think that it wasn't right given what had happened earlier that day that Mr. Simpson was at the Rose Bowl when his wife was at home with hat you have described as a

# 36 A:

She didn't want to be bothered with him. And I guess the best thing for him to do was to be out of her sight, so instead of sitting there where he was all day, he chose to go to the Rose Bowl.

# 37 Q:

And so would it been a fair statement, then, other than this short period where you were staying away so that they could sort through the problems relative to the '89 incident, that your overall relationship with Mr. Simpson had not changed at all as a result of the '89 incident?

# 38 A:

It hadn't changed. I thought that the two themHe didn't hit me. Nicole forgave him. They went on with their lives.

# 39 Q:

Okay. And is there anything that you observed about their relationship that was different that you attributed to the '89 incident?

# 40 DAN LEONARD:

Wait a minute. Vague, calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 41 A.C. COWLINGS:

It seemed like it was just as good times as any.

# 42

BY MR. BREWER:

# 43 Q:

So you didn't knowWhen you were around then and you made observations with respect to how they interacted together, you did not notice any major differences after the '89 incident that you attributed to that incident?

# 44 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, calls for speculation.

# 45 A.C. COWLINGS:

They seemed very happy to me.

# 46

BY MR. BREWER:

# 47 DAN LEONARD:

Objection as to that.

# 48 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 49

BY MR. BREWER:

# 50 Q:

So after the incident occurred as far as you could tell when you were around then, you were never present where it was referred to or talked about in your presence; is that true?

# 51 A:

No.

# 52 Q:

That's true?

# 53 A:

No, it wasn't talked about in my presence.

# 54 Q:

When I say "that's true," that is true what I am saying?

# 55 A:

That's true.

# 56 Q:

Going back to your earlier statement that, you know, you may have had these feelings that Mr. Simpson was responsible early on, what was the basis for that statement?

# 57 A:

Probably what was coming out from the TV, the media.

# 58 Q:

And do you remember specifically what you heard that triggered a thought process that led you to conclude that Mr. Simpson may be responsible for Nicole's death?

# 59 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, calls for speculation.

# 60

BY MR. BREWER:

# 61 Q:

And excluding the time period that we have been talking about.

# 62 A:

The thought was on my mind. I never came to the conclusion that he had done it.

# 63 Q:

Okay. That's a good point. When you say the thought was on your mind, it was something that you thought was in the realm of possible explanations relative to her death?

# 64 A:

The things that were coming out over the media rose concernput a thought in my mind.

# 65 Q:

Okay. And for example, you learned that blood was found at Rockingham; is that correct?

# 66 A:

I don't know whet I learned. There was a lot of stuff coming out.

Was there anything that stuck in your mind as being a significant piece of information that started the thought process going relative to your belief that Mr. Simpson may be responsible for the death of Nicole and Ron Goldman?

# 67 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, calls for speculation.

# 68 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 69

BY MR. BREWER:

# 70 Q:

So there is nothing in particular, it is just the combination of all of the information, nothing that you remember specifically thinking about?

# 71 A:

No.

# 72 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Argumentative.

# 73

BY MR. BREWER:

# 74 Q:

Did you also tell Cici that you thought that Mr. Simpson may have been responsible for Nicole's death?

# 75 A:

No.

# 76 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. That mis Go ahead.

# 77 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

That's a question not a statement.

# 78

BY MR. BREWER:

# 79 Q:

Did you also make the statement to Robin hat you thought that Mr. Simpson may be responsible for Nicole's death but had since changed your mind?

# 80 A:

No.

# 81 Q:

Other than Cora Fischman is there anyone else that you have told about a belief that you thought Mr. Simpson at some point may have been responsible for Nicole's death?

# 82 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. I think that that mischaracterizes his testimony when you use the word "belief."

# 83 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 84

BY MR. BREWER:

# 85 Q:

In discussions with Nicole's friends have any of them asked you whether you thought Mr. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 86 A:

The only one I can remember is Coral

# 87 Q:

Okay. And that is what prompted the discussion that we have been talking about for the past couple of minutes, her asking you about your belief with respect to whether he killed Nicole?

# 88 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. "Prompted the discussion," vague.

# 89 A.C. COWLINGS:

I didn't understand the question.

# 90

BY MR. BREWER:

# 91 Q:

Well, we are talking about a belief that you had or at least you thought it was a possibility that Mr. Simpson may have killed Nicole at some point; is that true?

# 92 A:

I told Cora that he didn't do it.

# 93 Q:

Okay. And that was in response to her asking you if you thought he did it?

# 94 A:

Right.

# 95 Q:

Now, in your discussions with Mr. Simpson's close friends, have any of those friends ever asked you whether you thought he did it?

# 96 A:

You are speaking of who? Q: Anyone. Joe Stellini?

# 97 A:

No.

# 98 Q:

Allen Austin? Any of people that you and Mr. Simpson had as common friends, have any of them at any point ever asked you, excluding this time period that is privileged, whether or not you thought Mr. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 99 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound.

# 100 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 101

BY MR. BREWER:

# 102 Q:

Have you had any discussions with any of the friends that were at the meeting with Mr. Shapiro regarding a knife that may have been used in connection with the murders?

# 103 A:

No.

Have you had any discussion with that same group of people with respect to clothing that Mr. Simpson may have been wearing at the time that the murders

# 104 DAN LEONARD:

I am going to object. Can I get my objection in first.

# 105 DONALD RE:

Sure. Go ahead.

# 106 DAN LEONARD:

Object as vague, lack of foundation.

# 107 DONALD RE:

Is the question: Did you have discussions at this group meeting? Is that what the question is?

# 108 MICHAEL BREWER:

No. At any time, excluding the relevant time period where there is a privileged being asserted.

# 109 DONALD RE:

And the question is: Did he have a discussion with somebody who attended the meeting?

# 110 MICHAEL BREWER:

Yes.

# 111 Q:

The people that were identified that he remembers being at this meeting with Mr. Shapiro, excluding the time period that you are asserting privilege, have you ever had a discussion with any of those individuals relative to the location of any clothes that Mr. Simpson may have been wearing at the time of the murders?

R.LEONARD: Objection. Vague, lack of foundation, compound, and calls for speculation.

# 112 DONALD RE:

The other thing is if you are asking if he had any conversation with anybody at any time regarding clothes that Simpson may or may not have been wearing, he would have asserted a privilege to that independent of the time period.

In other words, if you are talking about potential evidence in the case, did he ever talk to any of these people about Simpson's clothes, he would assert a privilege to that regardless of the time period.

R.BREWER: You know, I am not going to belabor this. I just want to make sure I understand the point so I do not waste our time here.

# 113 Q:

For example, Jennifer Peace

# 114 A:

You got to be joking.

# 115 Q:

there was just a discussion with Mr. Cowlings concerning conversations he had with her with respect to the location of a knife, clothes that he may have been wearing, et cetera.

# 116 DONALD RE:

That is what Jennifer Peace said?

R.BREWER: Right.

# 117 DONALD RE:

That is not what he said.

R.BREWER: But he was asked about discussions with her wherein he said this to her at the deposition.

R.RE: But he said that never happened. So what I am saying to you is, you are asking him now was there an event where he spoke to somebody about that evidence, and I am telling you that he will assert the privilege to this. The other question was did you say this to Jennifer Peace, and he said no, I never said that to Jennifer Peace. There is no privilege to that.

# 118 MICHAEL BREWER:

How about a question, did you tell Allen AustinDid you have any discussions with Allen Austin with respect to the location of evidence, a question like that?

# 119 DAN LEONARD:

I am going to object to that question.

# 120 MICHAEL BREWER:

You can object to it. I want to figure out what his position is.

# 121 DONALD RE:

At this point - Jennifer Peace is a very different animal.

# 122 A.C. COWLINGS:

It's a joke.

# 123 MICHAEL BREWER:

I am not saying it is a joke. I am talking about the privilege. It is only the question I am concerned about.

# 124 DONALD RE:

The reason we let him go ahead with regard to Jennifer Peace is because that is one of the areas that he said at the very beginning of the deposition he wanted to clear up and testify about. When we are talking about anybody else, asking anybody in general or in specific did you talk about the evidence in the case, he is going to assert a privilege to that.

# 125 MICHAEL BREWER:

Okay.

# 126 DONALD RE:

Okay.

# 127

BY MR. BREWER:

# 128 Q:

On the morning of the 12th you were called to Rockingham by Arnelle, and when you got to Rockingham did you notice whether anyone who was theresorrythe 13th, the police officers, Arnelle, Kato, anyone had any cuts or was bleeding at any time?

# 129 A:

I don't know. I didn't notice.

# 130 Q:

And you weren't, as far as you knew; correct.'

# 131 A:

Not that I remember.

# 132 Q:

Do you have any information about a book that is being written by Larry Schiller concerning the events of June 13 end June 12, 1994?

# 133 A:

No.

R.LEONARD:I am going to object. That is lack of foundation, vague, "any information."

THEWITNESS:I have no knowledge of that.

# 134

BY MR. BREWER:

# 135 Q:

Have you ever heard that Larry Schiller is in the process of writing a book?

# 136 A:

No.

# 137 Q:

Have you heard that Robert Kardashian is in the process of providing information or collaborating with Mr. Schiller in connection with a proposed book?

# 138 A:

No.

# 139 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, compound, lack of foundation.

THEWITNESS: Yes.

BYMR.BREWER:

# 140 Q:

Where did you hear that?

# 141 A:

From Bob.

# 142 Q:

From Bob Kardashian?

# 143 A:

Yes.

# 144 Q:

Did he tell you that he was involved with Larry Schiller in connection with the book?

# 145 A:

Yes.

# 146 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 147

BY MR. BREWER:

# 148 Q:

Did he tell you that the book was being written as we speak?

# 149 A:

I don't know when it was written.

# 150 Q:

When did you have this conversation with Mr. Kardashian about this book?

# 151 A:

It has been a while. I guess he is still doing it.

# 152 Q:

When did you first have a conversation with Mr. Kardashian?

# 153 A:

I don't know.

# 154 Q:

Just so that I am clear, the conversation that I am referring to is the one that refers to him doing a book with Larry Schiller.

# 155 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, and I think that mischaracterizes his testimony.

THEWITNESS: It could have came up after the trial.

BYMR.BREWER:

# 156 Q:

Okay. And do you remember where you were located?

# 157 A:

It could have been on the phone.

# 158 Q:

Do you remember how the discussions came up?

: I don't remember. Everybody was doing books.

# 159 Q:

And did Mr. Kardashian tell you that he was interested in doing a book since everyone was doing books?

# 160 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 161 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know if somebody was showing interest in him or he was showing interest in doing a book. I really don't know.

# 162

BY MR. BREWER:

# 163 Q:

And did he indicate that he was collaborating with Larry Schiller in connection with a book?

# 164 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 165 A.C. COWLINGS:

He could be. BY MR. BREWER:

# 166 Q:

And did he tell you what the approach or angle of the book was?

# 167 A:

No.

# 168 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 169

BY MR. BREWER:

# 170 Q:

Did he tell you what information, if any, he had provided to Mr. Schiller? MR. LEONARD: Same objections.

# 171 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 172

BY MR. BREWER:

# 173 Q:

Did he tell you what information he was going to provide to Mr. Schiller?

# 174 A:

No.

# 175 DAN LEONARD:

Same objection. BY MR. BREWER:

# 176 Q:

Did he ask you for any information that could be used in connection with the book?

# 177 A:

No.

# 178 Q:

Did he say anything about the subject matter of the book?

# 179 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections. THEWITNESS: No.

# 180

BY MR. BREWER:

# 181 Q:

Did he say anything about any of the information that would be contained within the book?

# 182 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections. THE WITNESS: No.

# 183

BY MR. BREWER:

# 184 Q:

SO the only thing that he said to you concerning this book was the fact that he was doing a book collaboration with Mr. Schiller?

# 185 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 186 A.C. COWLINGS:

Yes.

# 187 DAN LEONARD:

I think that mischaracterizes his testimony.

# 188 A.C. COWLINGS:

Sorry. Yes.

# 189

BY MR. BREWER:

# 190 Q:

And did he tell you anything about the timing of the book's release?

# 191 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 192 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 193

BY MR. BREWER:

# 194 Q:

Did he tell you anything about, you know, what information was going to be accumulated that would go into the book?

# 195 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. I think you already asked that at least once. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 196 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

BY MR. BREWER: Q: Did he tell you about anyone that had been interviewed with a view towards providing information for the book?

# 197 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 198 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 199

BY MR. BREWER:

# 200 Q:

Did he indicate to you that there were going to be any disclosures of privileged or private information in the book?

# 201 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. calls for speculation, lack of foundation, calls for a legal conclusion.

# 202 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 203

BY MR. BREWER:

# 204 Q:

Did Mr. Kardashian indicate at that time that they had a manuscript that had been completed?

# 205 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 206 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 207

BY MR. BREWER:

# 208 Q:

Did he indicate to you that they were at least in the process of putting a manuscript together?

# 209 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for

# 210 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 211 DAN LEONARD:

speculation. You have to let me finish myPlease.

# 212 A.C. COWLINGS:

I'm sorry.

# 213 DAN LEONARD:

Calls for speculation, lack of foundation, vague.

# 214 A.C. COWLINGS:

Isn't there one word you could use.

# 215 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes. Shut up.

# 216 MICHAEL BREWER:

That's a code word for his objection.

# 217 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Let the record reflect laughter.

# 218 DAN LEONARD:

Well, that's not nice. MR. RE: Also, it is two words.

# 219 MICHAEL BREWER:

Laugher is spontaneous. It is not preplanned.

# 220 DAN LEONARD:

With you, I don't know Mike. You are pretty slick.

# 221

BY MR. BREWER:

# 222 Q:

With respect to this Kardashian manuscript, have you ever seen a manuscript in connection with this book?

# 223 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

# 224 A.C. COWLINGS:

No. BY MR. BREWER:

# 225 Q:

Have you ever listened to any tape-recordings that relate to a manuscript?

# 226 A:

No.

# 227 Q:

And when I say "a manuscript," I am talking about either a completed one or portions thereof.

# 228 A:

No.

# 229 Q:

Did he tell you whether he was Strike that. Did he tell you whether he had entered into any contractual relationship with a publisher in connection with this book?

# 230 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 231 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 232

BY MR. BREWER:

# 233 Q:

Was there any discussion about how much he had been paid or expected to be paid in connection with the book?

# 234 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 235 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 236 DAN LEONARD:

Compound, plus the same objection.

# 237 A.C. COWLINGS:

Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. BY MR. BREWER:

# 238 Q:

Mr. Simpson, based upon your knowledge of him, is a very verbal person; is that a fair statement?

# 239 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 240 A.C. COWLINGS:

Yes.

# 241

BY MR. BREWER:

# 242 Q:

And, for example, if you have a conversation with him, the tendency is for him to typically spend most of the time in that conversation doing the talking; is that true?

# 243 A:

Yes.

# 244 Q:

And when he is angry or upset, he tends to become quiet?

# 245 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 246

BY MR. BREWER:

# 247 Q:

Is that true?

# 248 DAN LEONARD:

Vague, lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 249 A.C. COWLINGS:

I guess. I really don't know.

# 250

BY MR. BREWER:

# 251 Q:

Have you ever been around Mr. Simpson where you have known that he is angry or upset about something and he has become very quiet and introverted

# 252 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

BY MR. BREWER: Q: reflective?

# 253 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound, vague, calls for speculation.

# 254 A.C. COWLINGS:

I have seen him sometimes when he was quiet, when he is being bothered by something.

# 255

BY MR. BREWER:

# 256 A:

And he tends to be a more reflective or introverted based upon what you are able to see of him when he is en' or upset?

# 257 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, argumentative, lack of foundation, misstates his prior testimony.

# 258 A.C. COWLINGS:

He would be quiet.

# 259 Q:

Are there any particular occasions that stand out in your memory where you have been around Mr. Simpson and you have known that he is angry about something where he has been quiet or reflective?

# 260 DAN LEONARD:

Lack of foundation, calls for speculation, objection.

# 261 A.C. COWLINGS:

Unless he tells me. Sometimes I am around and he is tired. Maybe he is just coming off the road or he has been working too hard.

# 262

BY MR. BREWER:

# 263 Q:

And as a good friend sometimes you are around him and he will be quiet and you will say "what is going on" to find out why he has been quiet?

# 264 A:

Sometimes if, you know, some people don't want to be bothered, and you just don't bother them.

# 265 Q:

Has that ever happened where he has been unusually quiet, and you have asked him "What is going on? What is the matter?"

# 266 A:

Sometimes.

# 267 Q:

And has he ever said, "Well, I am upset" or UI am bothered about something"?

# 268 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound.

# 269

BY MR. BREWER:

# 270 Q:

And would you say that most of the time when you are around Mr. Simpson if he is not being bothered or he is not upset about something, he tends to be a very verbal person, talking and gregarious type of person?

# 271 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound, vague, lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 272 A.C. COWLINGS:

Not necessarily. BY MR. BREWER:

# 273 Q:

If you were asked to describe a personality trait, would you describe that as one of Mr. Simpson's personality traits, that he tends to be a very talkative and verbal person?

# 274 A:

No. He's a very nice guy.

# 275 Q:

And when he is out socially, he tends to be very talkative, doesn't he?

# 276 A:

He talks to people who come up to him.

# 277 Q:

Now, going back to this New York incident after the Louis Marx party, which may or may not be r63 related to their anniversary when you received a call from Mr. Simpson, were you in bed at the time that you received the call?

# 278 A:

I don't remember if I was or not.

# 279 Q:

And when he called you, the word that you said was that he seemed upset. Did he seem angry when 1121 he contacted you?

# 280 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 281 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember the tone.

# 282

BY MR. BREWER:

# 283 Q:

When you said that he was upset what did you mean?

# 284 A:

He sounded like he was upset. He could have been talking in a low voice.

# 285 Q:

Okay. Well ,upset could mean crying, could mean quiet, could mean yelling, boisterous. Can you help us figure out how he was upset when he contacted you that evening?

# 286 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

# 287 A.C. COWLINGS:

For him to call me at that time I figured, you know, something was wrong.

141 BY MR. BREWER:

# 288 Q:

Okay. So it was based upon the timing of the call that led you to believe that he was upset about something?

# 289 A:

Or bothered by something, yes.

# 290 Q:

And was it aIt was a very short call, wasn't it?

# 291 A:

Yes.

# 292 Q:

And he essentially told you that he needed you to come over to the suite where they were 1141 staying; is that correct?

# 293 A:

Right.

# 294 Q:

And you knew that there was a problem as a result of that call and being summoned over to their suite; true?

# 295 A:

I didn't know

# 296 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

# 297 A.C. COWLINGS:

I didn't know what to expect.

# 298

BY MR. BREWER:

# 299 Q:

Well, did you expect that you were going over there to socialize, to have a drink and just talk?

# 300 A:

I didn't know what to expect when I got there.

# 301 Q:

Prior to receiving that call, in your experience with Nicole and Mr. Simpson, had you ever been called upon to mediate disputes between them;

# 302 A:

No.

# 303 Q:

Had you ever been called upon to provide an objective or third

Let's change the tape.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape number two of Volume IV. The time is approximately 1:23, and we are off the record.

# 304 (Recess taken.)

# 305

BY MR. BREWER:

# 306 Q:

Mr. Cowlings, I think before we had to go off the record I asked you whether you had ever been called upon by Mr. Simpson and Nicole to provide like, a third-party view of things or to be an objective observer of something that was going on in their relationship or a mediator or something of that sort. Has that ever happened

# 307 A:

No.

# 308 Q:

prior to this? So this was the first time that you had ever been called upon by the Simpsons to sort out a dispute that they were in?

# 309 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague, misstates his testimony.

# 310 A.C. COWLINGS:

His reason for calling me, I couldn't tell you exactly what his reasons were. I went there. He said she had embarrassed him, and she 1 said I was sorry, that I didn't mean to embarrass you, and that was it.

# 311

BY MR. BREWER:

# 312 A:

It was a friend of mine calling me. Q: Okay.

# 313 A:

It sounded like he needed me, so I went.

# 314 Q:

And were you going to mediate a dispute that they were having?

# 315 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 316 A.C. COWLINGS:

I didn't know what was going on there.

# 317

BY MR. BREWER:

# 318 Q:

Were you asked to provide an opinion, like whether or not this was something that would be embarrassing to you?

# 319 A:

I was all ears.

# 320 Q:

So you were there just to listen?

# 321 DAN LEONARD:

I am going to object to the extent that you are asking him to speculate, when you say he was there to listen.

# 322 MICHAEL BREWER:

I am asking what his understanding was. That is not speculation.

# 323 DAN LEONARD:

His understanding MR. BREWER: Yes, absolutely.

# 324 DAN LEONARD:

Okay.

# 325 MICHAEL BREWER:

I am not asking about what is in Mr. Simpson's mind or Nicole's mind.

# 326 DAN LEONARD:

Yes, but that wasn't clear from the question.

# 327

BY MR. BREWER:

# 328 Q:

I am just asking what your understanding was with respect to why you were there, what you were to do.

# 329 A:

A friend called me. I went.

# 330 Q:

Okay. And when you got over there they were still in the bedroom or in bed; correct?

# 331 A:

In bed. I mean, in the bedroom. She was in the bed, and he was standing up.

# 332 Q:

Were they calm? A: Yes.

# 333 Q:

Was their speech to one another conversational?

# 334 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 335 MICHAEL BREWER:

As opposed to yelling.

# 336 A.C. COWLINGS:

They were talking. They weren't yelling.

# 337

BY MR. BREWER:

# 338 Q:

Were they arguing?

# 339 A:

There was no yelling.

# 340 Q:

So the first thing Mr. Simpson said to you was, "This is what she said that embarrassed me this evening"?

# 341 A:

He said, "She embarrassed me." She said, I didn't mean to." And she said, "I'm sorry."

# 342 Q:

And did Mr. Simpson ask you something like, "Do you think that is embarrassing?" Or "Is that something that would embarrass you?" Or something of that nature?

# 343 A:

I don't remember any too much more because I didn'tYou know, after she apologized or whatever, the conversation was over.

# 344 Q:

And did you

# 345 A:

So I went.

# 346 Q:

And you turned around and went back to your hotel?

# 347 A:

Yeah. I went back to my hotel.

# 348 Q:

Would it be a fair statement that that wasWould it be a fair description of that whole episode, that that was a relatively bizarre episode?

# 349 DAN LEONARD:

Objection.

# 350 A.C. COWLINGS:

I didn't look at it as bizarre.

# 351

BY MR. BREWER:

# 352 Q:

How would you describe it?

# 353 A:

A friend called. He needed me. I went. All right. I got there. She said something, something. She said, "I apologize." There was no more said after that. I turned around and went back to my hotel.

KEY QUOTE

# 354 Q:

And that was the last that it was ever talked about or referred to after?

# 355 A:

We flew out the next day back to L.A. together, the three of us.

# 356 Q:

And you never said to them, "Man, that was strange last night. What happened?"

# 357 A:

No. No, I didn't.

# 358 DONALD RE:

Hey.

# 359 A.C. COWLINGS:

Hey.

# 360 DONALD RE:

Too bad that wasn't on the tape.

# 361 DAN LEONARD:

It is on tape.

# 362

BY MR. BREWER:

# 363 Q:

By the way, just so the record is clear, you never observed any markings on her either that evening or the following day on her face or any part of her body?

# 364 A:

No.

# 365 Q:

The thing that Mr. Re has just pointed out to us on his electronic calendar is that January New Year's day would have been Sunday. Correct?

# 366 DAN LEONARD:

Of what year?

# 367 MICHAEL BREWER:

Of 1989.

# 368 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

January 1.

# 369 MICHAEL BREWER:

was Sunday, so January 2 would have been a Monday.

# 370 Q:

Does that refresh your recollection with respect to the date of the Rose Bowl?

# 371 A:

Are we back to that. I don't know, man. All I know is that the Rose Bowl is played on the 1st. Now, if that year it was played on the 2nd, your guess is as good as mine. I don't know. All I know, playing in the Rose Bowl myself, it is always played on the 1st. It may have changed. I really don't know.

# 372 Q:

Let's do it this way. The one thing that you are positive of is that the Rose Bowl was the same eveningplayed the same evening as the episode that we have described involving Mr. Simpson and Nicole?

# 373 DAN LEONARD:

I am going to object.

# 374 DONALD RE:

No.

# 375 DAN LEONARD:

I think that is vague.

# 376 A.C. COWLINGS:

New Year's we're at a party. New Year's morning I was called. There was a problem at the house. I went. The Rose Bowl, I assume, was played that afternoon.

# 377

BY MR. BREWER:

# 378 Q:

I want to just focus on what you said. You said I assume" it was played. Do you have a specific memory that it was on the same date as the altercation?

# 379 A:

The only reason I am saying this is because you guys are bringing up the 2nd and 1st. That is the only reason. Normally, up until this point, as far as I was concerned or knew, the game was played on the 1st.

# 380 Q:

Me too. And I just want to make sure we are clear on this. Irrespective of the date, whether it is the 1st or the 2nd, the Rose Bowl

# 381 A:

Why don't we get a press guide from USC or something that says that the game was played then or call over there.

# 382 Q:

Okay. Let me ask it this way, because this will help figure it out. You don't understand. I don't care about the date. I just want to make sure

# 383 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

We are going to call right now.

# 384 MICHAEL BREWER:

I just want to make sure

# 385 DAN LEONARD:

But I can't. You do it. MR. PETROCELLI: I will do it.

# 386 MICHAEL BREWER:

Let him do it.

# 387 DAN LEONARD:

Not that it really matters but

# 388 MICHAEL BREWER:

Let's ask the questions because I want to get out of here.

# 389 A.C. COWLINGS:

Woe. Woe. Woe.

# 390 DAN LEONARD:

Do you know the sports information number?

# 391 A.C. COWLINGS:

Ask eitherLet me se. It could beIf it was on the 1st, it would be 1980 1990. Do you understand what I am saying?

# 392 DONALD RE:

The 1st and the 2nd are both part of the same year.

# 393 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Who do I call, by the way?

# 394 A.C. COWLINGS:

See, like I played My last year

# 395 DAN LEONARD:

A.C.

# 396 A.C. COWLINGS:

Hold on. Let me explain something. Let me explain My last year at SC we played in the Rose Bowl. That was in '69, but it was the 1970 Rose Bowl.

# 397 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I see what you are saying.

# 398 DONALD RE:

It is the '69 season.

# 399 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

They may call this the 1989/ 1990 Rose Bowl?

# 400 A.C. COWLINGS:

Right.

# 401 DAN LEONARD:

Who should he call? Sports information?

# 402 A.C. COWLINGS:

Sports information on the campus of USC.

# 403 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Do you know the number?

# 404 A.C. COWLINGS:

Huh-uh.

# 405 DAN LEONARD:

What is the main number?

# 406 A.C. COWLINGS:

Just general information. They will probably give you You could ask for the athletic department.

# 407 DONALD RE:

She is taking all of this down.

# 408 A.C. COWLINGS:

Believe me, it is not

my fault. I am just a dumb football player.

# 409

BY MR. BREWER:

# 410 Q:

Let me just ask a question so that we can clear this upclean it up, and then close out the deposition.

Forget about the date, whether it is

the 1st or 2nd.

# 411 A:

Okay.

# 412 Q:

The only thing I am concerned about is you were summoned over to Rockingham that morning by Michelle; true?

# 413 A:

Yes.

# 414 Q:

And the Rose Bowl that we are talking about would have been the same evening, you would have one to the Rose Bowl that evening?

# 415 A:

Right.

# 416 Q:

You didn't know Ron Goldman, did you?

# 417 A:

No, I didn't.

0: Did you ever have any conversations with 1221 Mr. Simpson excluding the time period regarding Ron Goldman?

# 418 A:

No.

# 419 Q:

Prior to Nicole's death had you ever been

Page 1090

with Mr. Simpson where he pointed out someone that you later learned to be Ron Goldman?

# 420 A:

No.

# 421 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson ever say anything to you about Nicole dada" a waiter who worked at the Mezzaluna restaurant? And again, this is prior to

Nicole's death.

# 422 A:

No.

# 423 MICHAEL BREWER:

And, Mr. Re, just so that I am clear, I think you have already stated this, but in terms of discussions between Mr. Cowlings and Mr. Simpson, any conversations are going to be privileged?

# 424 DONALD RE:

Any post

# 425 MICHAEL BREWER:

Obviously post, post 13th through today?

R. RE: Right. Correct.

# 426 MICHAEL BREWER:

All right. Then that is all I have, Mr. Cowlings. Thank you.

# 427 DAN LEONARD:

I guess what we don't know right now isand I am certainly not suggesting it but we don't know whether Dan has any more.

# 428 MICHAEL BREWER:

Let's go off the record for a minute.

# 429 A.C. COWLINGS:

Let's go off the record.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 1:35.

# 430 (Discussion held off the record.)

# 431

BY MR. BREWER:

# 432 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Michigan beat USC 22 to 14.

# 433 DAN LEONARD:

Just state where did you get the information.

# 434 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I called, at Mr. Cowlings' suggestion, the sports information director of USC.

# 435 DAN LEONARD:

And how long was that discussion?

# 436 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

About 45 seconds.

BYMR.BREWER:

# 437 Q:

Given that information, the fact that the Rose Bowl was on the 2nd and not, in fact, on the 1st, does that in and of itself refresh your recollection with respect to what you did or didn't do on the evening of the 1st?

# 438 A:

No.

# 439 Q:

You remember previous testimony that Mr. Simpson attended the Rose Bowl that year?

# 440 A:

Yes.

# 441 Q:

And if we are correct end the Rose Bowl was on the 2nd, that means that on the 1st where we thought he was at the Rose Bowl he was somewhere else; true?

: Probably, yes.

# 442 Q:

Okay. Now, when is the last time you saw Mr. Simpson on the 1st that you have a memory of?

# 443 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation.

THEWITNESS:I saw him in and out that day because I eventually brought him back up to the house that evening.

BYMR.BREWER:

# 444 Q:

Do you remember what time you brought him back to the house?

# 445 A:

No.

# 446 Q:

Do you remember whether it was in the early evening versus later in the evening?

# 447 A:

It could have been early evening.

# 448 Q:

Okay. Do you know from any source whether he had left and gone anywhere else after you left to take Nicole to the hospital?

# 449 A:

I really don't remember.

# 450 Q:

Do you remember how long you stayed with Nicole after your return from the hospital at Rockingham?

# 451 A:

No.

# 452 Q:

Do you remember it being more than a matter of minutes? I mean, did you stay there for an

# 453 Q:

Do you remember where you brought him to the house from.

# 454 A:

Probably from Alan Schwartz.

Q And when you dropped him off, was that the last time that you saw him that evening, was after you dropped him off at Rockingham?

# 455 A:

No. We walked into the house together.

# 456 Q:

Was Nicole there at that time? A: Yes.

# 457 Q:

And then how long did you stay at Rockingham?

# 458 A:

We talked. I suggested to take her in and he said yesto the hospital.

Q Was Howard Weitzman there at the time?

# 459 A:

I don't know.

# 460 Q:

Do you recall seeing Howard Weitzman at the house that day?

# 461 A:

What day?

# 462 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.

THEW1TNESS: What day? BYMR.BREWER: Q: On the 1st.

# 463 A:

Not that I can remember.

# 464 Q:

At any time, by the way. My question is open to at any time on the 1st do you recall seeing Howard Weitzman at Rockingham?

# 465 A:

Any time on the 1st?

Yes. A: Not that I remember.

Do you recall or do you have any knowledge with respect to whether Mr. Simpson spoke with Howard Weitzman on the 1st?

# 466 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation, compound.

HEWITNESS:I have no knowledge of that.

YMR.BREWER:

# 467 Q:

Same question with respect to Skip Taft. do you have any knowledge with respect to whether Mr. Simpson spoke by telephone with Skip Taft?

# 468 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections. THE WITNESS: He would have.

# 469

BY MR. BREWER:

# 470 Q:

Do you have a memory of that?

# 471 A:

I don't remember.

# 472 Q:

Do you have a recollection of Mr. Taft being at Rockingham at any time on the 1st?

# 473 A:

I don't remember.

# 474 Q:

How about at Alan Schwartz's?

# 475 A:

He could have been at Alan's.

# 476 Q:

You have a memory of him being there?

# 477 A:

Not really.

# 478 Q:

What is the basis for your statement that he could have been there?

# 479 A:

He could have been there. He is O.J.'s attorney.

# 480 Q:

Alright. Do you know whether he was summoned to Alan Schwartz's house?

# 481 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Lack of foundation

# 482 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know.

# 483 DAN LEONARD:

- calls for speculation.

# 484

BY MR. BREWER:

# 485 Q:

So you do not have a memory of Skip Taft being at Alan Schwartz's at any time that day?

# 486 A:

Skip could have been there. I don't remember.

# 487 Q:

Same question with Howard Weitzman at Alan Schwartz's?

# 488 DAN LEONARD:

Same objections.

# 489 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't remember seeing Howard. BY MR. BREWER:

And after you left Rockingham you took Nicole to the hospital that evening; correct?

# 490 A:

Right.

# 491 Q:

And as far as you knew Mr. Simpson was still at Rockingham when you left?

# 492 A:

I don't know. He was there when I left.

# 493 Q:

With Nicole?

# 494 A:

No. Nicole was with me.

# 495 Q:

Let's focus on those two time periods. When you left Rockingham with Nicole to take her to the hospital, do you know where O.J. Simpson was?

# 496 A:

I think he was still there at the house.

# 497 Q:

And then when you came back from the hospital, did you come back to Rockingham'

# 498 A:

Yes.

# 499 Q:

And was Mr. Simpson still there?

# 500 A:

I don't know.

# 501 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

# 502

BY MR. BREWER:

# 503 A:

I don't remember.

hour, half hour, two hours?

# 504 A:

I couldn't tell you how long I stayed.

: Do you remember leaving Rockingham that evening and going back home?

# 505 A:

Yeah, I went home.

And when you left Rockingham that evening, do you recall specifically with respect to whether Mr. Simpson was at Rockingham' :I don't remember. Q: So you have no memory of Mr. Simpson's whereabouts after you left Rockingham to go to the hospital; is that true?

# 506 DAN LEONARD:

I'm sorry. Can you repeat that question.

# 507

BY MR. BREWER:

# 508 Q:

After you left Rockingham to take Nicole to the hospital you have no recollection with respect to seeing Mr. Simpson or knowing his whereabouts?

# 509 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound, calls for speculation.

BYMR.BREWER: Q: Is that true?

# 510 A:

I don't know if he stayed there. I don't know if he was still there when I got back. I don't remember.

And when you say you don't remember, you do not remember seeing him; true?

:I just don't remember if he was still there when I got back.

# 511 Q:

You do not remember reporting to him with respect to what happened at the hospital, what the m doctor said? A: I don't remember.

# 512 DAN LEONARD:

That night you mean?

# 513 MICHAEL BREWER:

Yes. I am just focusing on that evening.

THEWITNESS:I don't remember. 1131 BY MR. BREWER:

# 514 Q:

Do you remember talking to him the following day?

# 515 A:

I could have.

# 516 Q:

W hen you say you could have, do you have a memory of that?

# 517 A:

No.

# 518 Q:

When you say you could have, does that sound like something that you would have done, to call 1221 him end check on her

# 519 A:

Probably.

# 520 Q:

Do you have a recollection of any discussions that you had with Mr. Simpson the day after the incident occurred?

# 521 A:

The day after?

# 522 Q:

Yes. Which would have been the 2nd

# 523 A:

The 2nd.

# 524 Q:

we now know.

: I don't know. I could have.

# 525 Q:

Do you have any memory of seeing him the day after the incident occurred?

# 526 A:

I don't remember.

# 527 Q:

Assuming that is the date of the Rose Bowl, and we think it is, do you remember whether you saw Mr. Simpson before he went to the Rose Bowl that year?

# 528 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague as to time. At any time before he went to the Rose Bowl?

# 529 MICHAEL BREWER:

Yes. That day any time.

# 530 DAN LEONARD:

Okay.

# 531 MICHAEL BREWER:

Absolutely.

# 532 A.C. COWLINGS:

Since you mention this, there is a thought in my mind right now that I probably went to the Rose Bowl if it was on the 2nd.

BYMR.BREWER:

KEY QUOTE

# 533 Q:

Do you have a memory now of going to the Rose Bowl that year?

# 534 A:

No. It is just a thought in my mind. It

Page1100

could have been

# 535 Q:

Does it help if we tell you that it is Jason's first

# 536 A:

When you brought up Jason, some

thing in my mind clicked that Jason came up to me while I was on the side lines.

# 537 A:

So is now your best recollection that you were probably at the Rose Bowl that year?

: Yes. Something is telling mein my mind is telling me that I was there.

And were you there with O.J. Simpson that year?

# 538 A:

Yes, I would have been there with him.

# 539 Q:

Do you remember sitting with O.J. Simpson that year?

# 540 A:

I think we were on the side lines, I think.

# 541 Q:

Do you remember what he was wearing?

# 542 A:

No.

# 543 Q:

Other than you and Mr. Simpson, do you recall anyone else that was with you that year?

# 544 A:

Huh-uh. I don't remember.

# 545 Q:

So to the best of your knowledge as you e41 sit here today you just remember you and Mr. Simpson?

# 546 A:

It could have been others, but I don't

Page110

remember.

# 547 Q:

Do you remember the individual on Exhibit 07?

r41 A: He could have been.

Do you remember there being kind of a pregame party or event that you went to and then went m from there to the Rose Bowl?

# 548 A:

I don't remember. There is always a pregame thing. I don't know if we were in time to go into the hospitality tent, as they called them, or did we get there just before the game started. I really don't remember.

# 549 Q:

Because you are scalums, is there specialthere is obviously special treatment anyway, but is there a particular event that is held for former SC football players that attend the Rose Bowl?

# 550 A:

I don't know. It is just in general there is various support groups that have their own tents. The network could have had their tents up. O.J. could have been invited by the networks to come down. I don't know who covered the game that year.

# 551 Q:

When you say he could have been invited by the networks, you are talking about going up and maybe doing some commentary or just giving an interview?

# 552 A:

Into the hospitality suite, the hospitality tent.

# 553 Q:

I see. Do you recall giving any interviews that year?

Me? Q:Yes. : Not How about Mr. Simpson, do you recall seeing him being interviewed

by anyone while you were at the game?

# 554 A:

I don't remember.

# 555 Q:

Do you recall his demeanor during the course of the football game?

# 556 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 557 A.C. COWLINGS:

No.

# 558 MICHAEL BREWER:

Let me make it more specific.

# 559 Q:

During the course of the Rose Bowl do you I recall observing that Mr. Simpson was upset?

# 560 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 561 A.C. COWLINGS:

I don't know. I was watching the game.

# 562 Q:

Do you recall observing that he was emotional at all?

# 563 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Vague.

# 564

BY MR. BREWER:

# 565 A:

I don't remember.

# 566 Q:

Do you recall any discussion that you had at the Rose Bowl relative to the events the preceding day?

: No, I don't remember.

: Do you remember where you went after the game?

# 567 A:

I couldn't tell you.

: Do you remember going back to Rockingham after the Rose Bowl?

# 568 A:

I remember coming back to Rockingham or I could have went back to Wayne's or I could have went home. I really don't know.

# 569 Q:

You have no memory of what you did

# 570 A:

No.

# 571 Q:

Do you have any memory of seeing Nicole after the Rose Bowl?

# 572 DAN LEONARD:

You mean that day? MR. BREWER: Yes. That day after the Rose Bowl.

# 573 A.C. COWLINGS:

The 2nd? BY MR. BREWER:

# 574 Q:

Yes, on the 2nd.

# 575 A:

No, I don't remember.

Do you have a memory after the Rose Bowl on the 2nd of talking to Nicole by telephone?

# 576 A:

I don't remember. I may have.

# 577 Q:

Checking on her health or her medical condition?

# 578 A:

Maybe. I don't know. I really don't rs1 remember.

# 579 Q:

But again you have no memory one way or the other as to whether you did that?

# 580 A:

No.

# 581 Q:

Other than the hospital is it on the 1st, did you ever take Nicole for any follow-up medical visits

# 582 A:

No.

# 583 Q:

relative to the '89 incident? A: No.

# 584 Q:

And that is the only occasion that you have ever had to take her to the hospital for any reason?

# 585 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 586 Q:

You are kind of pausing like you are not certain.

# 587 A:

I'm trying to get the cobwebs out. I remember going to the hospital with her when she was giving birth.

# 588 Q:

Apart from giving birth, this is the only time because of an injury that you ever had to take her to the hospital?

# 589 A:

I have taken her to doctor appointments, dental appointments.

# 590 Q:

Doctor appointments because of an injury?

# 591 A:

No.

# 592 Q:

Dental appointments because of some injury to her mouth?

# 593 A:

No.

# 594 Q:

Apart from this hospital visit during the '89 incident, do you recall any other incidents that you had to take her to the hospital for?

# 595 A:

No.

# 596 Q:

How about where you accompanied Mr. Simpson when he took her to the hospital as a result of some injury, do you recall that?

# 597 A:

No, I don't.

# 598 Q:

How about accompanying anyone else and Nicole

# 599 A:

No.

Q to the hospital because of an injury

# 600 A:

No.

# 601 Q:

do you recall that?

# 602 A:

No.

: Other than the arguments and the physical altercation that we have talked about, do you recall any other fight or argument that we have not discussed during the course of the deposition?

# 603 A:

No.

# 604 DAN LEONARD:

Objection. Compound. Please let me get my objection in. Objection. Compound

# 605 A.C. COWLINGS:

I'm sorry.

# 606 DAN LEONARD:

lack of foundation.

# 607 A.C. COWLINGS:

Could you raise your hand next time.

# 608 MICHAEL BREWER:

Okay. Thanks, Mr. Cowlings, I have nothing further.

# 609 DAN LEONARD:

I don't have any questions.

# 610 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Can we have the stipulation that the original will be sent to you, Mr. Re, on behalf of Mr. Cowlings; you will have 30 days from your receipt in which to inform us of any changes and whether it has been signed; and if not so informed, that a certified copy can be used in lieu of an original for all purposes; the court reporter is otherwise relieved of his and her statutory dudes.

# 611 DONALD RE:

Yes.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Allen Cowlings, Volume IV. The number of videotapes used was three. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 1:51.

# 612 (ENDING TIME: 1:51 P.M.)

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (5)

A.C. Cowlings

He didn't hit me. Nicole forgave him. They went on with their lives.

Cowlings rationalizes continued friendship with Simpson after the '89 incident, framing Nicole's forgiveness as closing the matter for everyone.

A.C. Cowlings

A friend called. He needed me. I went.

Cowlings reduces the strange late-night New York hotel summons to simple loyalty, deflecting any characterization of it as unusual or as mediation of a domestic dispute.

Daniel Petrocelli

Yes. Shut up.

Delivered as a joke in response to Cowlings complaining about the length of Leonard's objections — the only moment of genuine levity in the room, prompting Petrocelli to note 'Let the record reflect laughter.'

A.C. Cowlings

I am just a dumb football player.

Self-deprecating deflection during the Rose Bowl date confusion, but also a tell — Cowlings uses the persona of a simple ex-athlete to avoid pinning down specifics.

A.C. Cowlings

Since you mention this, there is a thought in my mind right now that I probably went to the Rose Bowl if it was on the 2nd.

Cowlings' memory shifts in real time once the date is corrected, ultimately recalling being on the sidelines with Simpson — undercutting his earlier testimony that he skipped the Rose Bowl to be available for Nicole.

Evidence (3)

Exhibit 07

Photograph of an unidentified individual, shown to Cowlings in context of the Rose Bowl attendance

discussed — Cowlings says the person 'could have been' there but does not confirm

Informal

The 1989 Rose Bowl (USC vs. Michigan, played January 2, 1990 — Michigan won 22-14), used to pin down the date of the '89 domestic violence incident

date confirmed mid-deposition via Petrocelli's phone call to USC sports information

Informal

Proposed Kardashian-Schiller book manuscript — whether it existed, what it contained, whether Cowlings had seen or heard tapes

discussed — Cowlings confirms Kardashian told him about the collaboration but denies any knowledge of contents

Notable Exchanges (4)

Daniel Petrocelli•Dan Leonard•A.C. Cowlings

After Cowlings complains about the length of Leonard's objections ('Isn't there one word you could use'), Petrocelli says 'Yes. Shut up.' Brewer explains it is 'a code word for his objection.' Petrocelli asks the record to reflect laughter. Leonard protests it is 'not nice,' and Re notes it is also 'two words.'

light

Michael Brewer•Donald Re•Daniel Petrocelli•A.C. Cowlings•Dan Leonard

Extended confusion over whether the Rose Bowl was January 1st or 2nd leads Cowlings to suggest calling USC sports information. Petrocelli actually makes the call during a recess and reports back: Michigan beat USC 22-14 on January 2nd. Cowlings' memory then shifts to believing he was at the game on the sidelines with Simpson.

revealing

Michael Brewer•Donald Re

Brewer attempts to ask whether Cowlings discussed evidence locations (knife, clothing) with attendees of the Shapiro meeting. Re draws a sharp distinction: Cowlings denied those conversations with Jennifer Peace specifically (so no privilege applies), but any question about whether he discussed evidence with others will trigger privilege regardless of time period.

strategic

Michael Brewer•A.C. Cowlings

Brewer attempts to show Cowlings told Cici and Robin that Simpson 'may have been responsible' for Nicole's death, potentially impeaching his loyalty narrative. Cowlings flatly denies both.

strategic

Light Moments (5)

Daniel Petrocelli

Petrocelli says 'Yes. Shut up.' as the one-word objection summary Cowlings requested, prompting laughter and meta-commentary from all parties including Leonard saying it's 'not nice' and Re noting it's actually two words.

A.C. Cowlings

Cowlings suggests calling USC sports information to resolve the Rose Bowl date dispute; Petrocelli actually does it during the break and returns with the score.

A.C. Cowlings

'I am just a dumb football player.' — Cowlings deflects responsibility for not knowing the Rose Bowl date.

Donald Re / Dan Leonard

Re says 'Hey' to Cowlings off-camera; Leonard notes 'Too bad that wasn't on the tape'; Re replies 'It is on tape.' — brief moment of camaraderie caught on the record.

A.C. Cowlings

Cowlings tells Leonard 'Could you raise your hand next time' so he can wait for objections before answering.

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ A.C. Cowlings

prior inconsistent statement

Brewer suggests Cowlings told Cici and Robin that he believed Simpson 'may have been responsible' for Nicole's death — directly contradicting Cowlings' stated position that he always believed in Simpson's innocence. Cowlings denies both.

⚔ A.C. Cowlings

memory contradiction

Cowlings testified he skipped the Rose Bowl to be available for Nicole after the '89 incident. Once the date is corrected to January 2nd via the USC phone call, Cowlings' memory shifts and he now believes he was at the game on the sidelines with Simpson — undermining the sacrifice narrative.

⚔ A.C. Cowlings

minimization of prior inconsistent conduct

Brewer presses Cowlings on whether the New York hotel episode — being summoned late at night to mediate between Simpson and Nicole — was 'bizarre.' Cowlings refuses the characterization and reduces it to 'a friend called, I went,' deflecting any implication it signals a pattern of domestic tension.

Witness Demeanor

(Recess taken.)

(Discussion held off the record.)

Witness frequently says 'I don't remember' and 'I could have' — cooperative but vague throughout

Witness grows animated during Rose Bowl date discussion, offering to call USC himself

Witness self-corrects multiple times when speaking out of turn before Leonard can object ('I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.')

Objections

42 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

A.C. Cowlings Deposition • Day 4 • 6 examinations • 3,442 utterances

Civil Case Deposition

1996