John Kelly continues his direct examination of Cora Fischman, Nicole Brown Simpson's closest friend, covering the two days after the murder, Nicole's state of mind in the final weeks of her life, her furious reaction to receiving an IRS-threat letter from Simpson, and detailed observations at Sydney's dance recital on the night of the murders. Fischman confirms that her and her husband's immediate reaction after the murders was that Simpson had done it, and that Nicole had been definitively ending the relationship in the weeks prior.
# 1 MR. KELLY: John Kelly for Plaintiff Brown.
# 2 MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for Plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
# 3 MS. ROIT: Natasha Roit for Plaintiff Brown.
# 4 MR.BAKER: Phil Baker for O.J. Simpson.
# 5 MR. KRAMER: Philip Kramer for the witness.
# 6 CORA A. FISCHMAN, having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
# 7 EXAMINATION (Resumed)
# 9 Q: Good morning, Miss Fischman.
# 11 Q: Between yesterday when we finished and this morning, have you spoken to anybody about your testimony except for your attorney, Mr. Kramer?
# 13 Q: And who was that?
# 14 A: I talked to my kids.
# 15 Q: Okay. Anybody other than your children?
# 16 A: I talked to Ron and I talk about how my kids are doing.
# 17 Q: Okay. All right. But nothing about your testimony specifically?
# 18 A: No, not specifically.
# 19 Q: Okay. Yesterday we had talked a little bit about an incident in late May where you had picked up Nicole's children one morning for school and Mr. Simpson had subsequently shown up, and the children went from your car into his. Is that correct?
# 21 Q: Okay. And what street was that on again?
# 22 A: We were on San Vicente Boulevard.
# 23 Q: Okay. And I believe you indicated that Mr. Simpson pulled in front of your car?
# 24 A: No. Behind my car.
# 25 Q: Okay. He pulled behind your car.
# 27 Q: And Sydney and Justin got out of your car and got into his?
# 29 Q: Okay. And did he pull out in front of you then after they got into his car?
# 31 Q: Okay. And after he pulled out in front of you, did you proceed directly to the school then?
# 33 Q: Okay. You didn't stop anywhere?
# 35 Q: Okay. When was the last time that morning that you saw Mr. Simpson and the children then?
# 36 A: When was the last time?
# 38 A: That was the last time. I didn't see them after that.
# 39 Q: Okay. When you pulled up to the school, you didn't see him there in the Bentley?
# 40 A: No. I didn't notice.
# 41 Q: Okay. In fact after he left that intersection there, you didn't see the car again, did you?
# 42 A: No, I didn't see the car.
# 45 Q: Okay. And it's your testimony that after that incident, later that day or at any time you never discussed it with Nicole?
# 49 Q: Okay. You did discuss it with her.
# 50 A: I did discuss it, yeah. I called her on the phone. I said what was going on.
# 51 Q: And that was after the kids left the car?
# 53 Q: Okay. And what did she tell you?
# 54 A: She said that O.J. was mad.
# 56 A: And that O.J.'s mad at me. I said, "Why? What did I do?" She said well, he's just mad at me. So that's what.
# 57 Q: After that phone conversation did you have any other conversations with Nicole?
# 61 Q: Okay. And you have no knowledge of Mr. Simpson going back to Bundy with the children after they got into his car?
# 63 MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
# 65 Q: On June 14th, 1994, okay, this is two days after the murder now, do you recall where you were that day?
# 66 A: What's June 14th?
# 70 A: Tuesday. I was at home.
# 71 Q: Okay. Do you recall going to Bundy at all?
# 72 A: Tuesday. Yes, I did go to Bundy.
# 73 Q: Okay. Do you recall approximately what time that was that you went over to Bundy, Nicole's condo?
# 74 A: I went in the afternoon.
# 75 Q: Okay. And do you recall what caused you to go over there?
# 76 A: Lou asked me for the key to the Bundy house.
# 77 Q: Okay. Lou had called you?
# 78 A: Lou went to Rockingham.
# 79 Q: To your place on Rockingham?
# 80 A: Right, in the morning, and asked where Alvia was.
# 81 Q: Okay. Was Alvia there at that time?
# 82 A: Yes, yes, Alvia was there, right.
# 83 Q: Okay. And did Alvia talk to Lou at that point?
# 84 A: No, I don't think so, no.
# 85 Q: Did she leave with Lou?
# 86 A: She was Alvia was at home, at my house at Rockingham.
# 88 A: Yeah, at my at Rockingham.
# 89 Q: What I am asking you is: When Lou came and spoke to her, did she then go with Lou back to Bundy?
# 91 Q: Okay. And did you speak to Lou at that time?
# 93 Q: Did you give him the keys to Bundy?
# 94 A: No, I didn't give my keys to he asked for Alvia's keys at that time.
# 95 Q: Did Alvia have a set of keys to Bundy?
# 97 Q: And did Alvia give Lou a set of keys?
# 98 A: I don't know. I think so. I'm not sure.
# 99 Q: Okay. Well, do you know how Lou ended up getting into the Bundy residence that morning?
# 100 MR. BAKER: Speculation.
# 101 MS. FISCHMAN: I don't know.
# 103 Q: Okay. Did you let him in?
# 104 A: No, I didn't let him in.
# 105 Q: Okay. When did you have occasion to go over to Bundy yourself?
# 107 Q: That day. Sorry.
# 110 A: I went in the afternoon, because they asked me to help take the stuff out.
# 111 Q: Who had asked you to take the stuff out?
# 112 A: No. You know what? I think I drove Alvia to Bundy. That's why I went there.
# 113 Q: That morning or that afternoon?
# 115 Q: And when you got there, who else was at Bundy at that time?
# 116 A: The Browns, Denise and Tanya.
# 117 Q: Was Dominique there?
# 118 A: Dominique? I'm not sure.
# 119 Q: And was Lou Brown there?
# 122 A: Lou? I think he was there.
# 123 Q: Okay. Anybody else, if you recall?
# 125 Q: Okay. Anybody else?
# 127 Q: Was Ron Fischman there?
# 128 A: No, Ron wasn't there.
# 129 Q: Was A.C. already there when you got to 875 Bundy?
# 130 A: Yes, he was there already.
# 131 Q: And what, if anything, was A.C. doing when you got there?
# 132 A: We were putting all of Nicole's belongings to the car. That was pretty much what we were doing.
# 133 Q: But did you pack anything yourself?
# 134 A: Yeah, I went upstairs and put everything in bags.
# 135 Q: And did you have any conversations with A.C. that day?
# 136 A: Yeah. We just said, you know he told me, "Just be strong. Be strong." That's pretty much what he told me.
# 137 Q: Okay. Did he say anything about Mr. Simpson at all?
# 139 Q: Did you have any discussions with him as to how the murders had occurred?
# 141 Q: No discussion about who might have done it?
# 143 Q: Did A.C. tell you he had spoken to Simpson?
# 145 Q: That never even came up?
# 147 Q: Did you remove anything from Bundy yourself?
# 148 MR. KRAMER: Do you understand the question?
You're asking
# 150 Q: Yeah, and kept it. I'm sorry.
# 152 Q: You didn't keep any of Nicole's belongings
# 156 Q: Was there any other time when you were over at Bundy that week later in the week?
# 157 A: That was the last time.
# 158 Q: Okay. Did you go there on the 17th?
# 159 A: What's the 17th? You have to give me
# 160 Q: That was the day after the funeral, the day of the Bronco chase.
# 161 A: Yes, I went back, yes.
# 162 Q: Okay. And did someone call you to come over?
# 163 A: I was so confused that day. I think Lou.
# 164 Q: I'm sorry. I'll come back to the 17th. On the 14th was there a time that Simpson called the Bundy residence when you were there?
# 165 MR. KRAMER: This is the Tuesday when they were packing?
# 167 Q: Yeah, Tuesday on the 14th, when you were packing.
# 168 A: I don't know, you know, because I was upstairs in the bedroom, so...
# 169 Q: Okay. Was Ron Hardy there that day?
# 170 A: Yes, he was there.
# 173 Q: Did you see him on the telephone at all?
# 174 A: I was upstairs, so I wouldn't know, so...
# 175 Q: Okay. And as far as you know, Ron Fischman wasn't there at all on the 14th?
# 176 A: Ron wasn't there, no.
W: Okay. Was he there on the 17th at all?
# 178 Q: Yeah, the day after the funeral, was he at Bundy?
# 179 A: Yeah, he followed me, yes, yeah.
# 180 Q: Did you and he discuss him coming over to Bundy or if he would come over there?
# 181 A: At the time, no, I don't think so. I just heard over the news that someone was at Bundy, and then when I Lou called, or I must have spoken to someone at the time. He said that there was another 911 or Lou called 911. So I panicked. I said, "Oh, my God, something happened again." And that was you know, like I got scared. I said, "Another one?" So my instinct was just to go there again and find out.
# 182 Q: Okay. Did you have any discussions with your husband before you went over there?
# 183 A: I don't remember. I mean, it was like the whole thing was to me was I was very confused and...
# 184 Q: Did you have any discussions between the 14th and the 17th with your husband about who might be responsible for Nicole's murder?
# 185 MR. BAKER: Leading.
# 186 MS. FISCHMAN: At that time?
# 189 A: We talked, but it was hush-hush. We were like we didn't know. It was like we were afraid to talk because we were afraid who really did it, afraid that we might get hurt.
# 190 Q: Well, who did he tell you he thought did it?
# 191 A: At that time our first initial reaction was he did it, you know.
KEY QUOTE # 193 A: That's what we thought.
# 194 Q: Okay. That was your husband's reaction, too?
# 195 MR. BAKER: Speculation.
# 196 MS. FISCHMAN: At that time, yes.
# 198 Q: Okay. Did your husband have another theory also in the days following the murder as to who might have committed it?
# 200 Q: He didn't talk to you about anybody other than Simpson being the possible murderer?
# 202 Q: Did he relate to you any conversations he had had with A.C.?
# 203 A: I don't know about that.
# 204 Q: Okay. Did you have any conversations after the 14th with A.C., either at the wake or funeral?
# 205 MR. KRAMER: The 14th is the Tuesday?
# 207 MS. FISCHMAN: Yeah.
# 209 Q: Okay. And did you speak to him at the wake?
# 211 Q: Did you speak to him at the funeral?
# 213 Q: When did you next speak to him?
# 214 A: You mean to A.C. Right?
# 216 A: That walk that I did with him on San Vicente.
# 217 Q: Okay. And that was later in June after
# 219 Q: Okay. And he had called you?
# 221 Q: Okay. And what had he said to you when he called you?
# 222 A: He said he asked how I was and how I'm doing, and he said, "Would you like to talk?" I said yes, you know, and that was it. So he said, "We'll meet at a coffee shop."
# 223 Q: Okay. And how long did you talk to him for?
# 224 A: I would say less than half an hour. 15, 20 minutes. We walked down San Vicente.
# 225 Q: And did A.C. indicate to you that he had spoken to Simpson at all prior to your meeting?
# 227 Q: Okay. Did he tell you anything that Simpson had said to him about the murders?
# 228 A: He didn't say anything about that.
# 229 Q: Okay. He didn't talk to you at all about who might have committed the murders other than Simpson?
# 230 A: No, he didn't say anything.
# 231 Q: Did he in any way indicate to you that he thought Simpson had committed the murders?
# 233 MR. BAKER: I think this has been asked and answered.
# 234 MS. FISCHMAN: I don't remember anymore, no.
# 237 A: I don't think so, no.
# 238 Q: Did he talk about Nicole's relationship with Simpson at all?
# 239 A: Yeah, we talked about that, yeah.
# 240 Q: Okay. Do you recall what he said?
# 241 A: He said they had a very passionate relationship, that Nicole was a very devoted wife.
# 242 Q: And what did he say about Simpson?
# 243 A: And that both of them just were just they loved each other.
# 244 Q: Okay. Did he indicate that there was a problem also or
# 245 A: Oh, yeah, he mentioned about O.J.'s womanizing.
# 246 Q: Okay. Anything else?
# 248 Q: Did he mention 1989 at all, the New Year's Day incident?
# 249 A: No, he didn't mention that, no.
# 250 Q: Okay. And after that conversation with A.C., have you spoken to him since at all about this?
# 251 A: I'm sorry. Did I talk to who?
# 252 Q: A.C. at all after this one conversation this day.
# 253 MR. KRAMER: You're asking any conversation
# 254 MR. KELLY: Any time.
# 255 MR.KRAMER: in the last two years?
# 256 MR. KELLY: Any time.
# 257 MS. FISCHMAN: Well, he was at the house at Rockingham when I picked up the kids one time. I said hello, and he asked me how I was doing. That was it. And I asked him he said he's working. I said, "Oh, that's good." That's pretty much
# 259 Q: Okay. You didn't discuss the case at all?
# 263 MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
# 265 Q: Now, I want to ask you about the incident at Tryst, the restaurant.
# 267 Q: Okay. You were there that night.
# 269 Q: Okay. And you were at a table with a number of other people?
# 271 Q: And who else was there, if you recall?
# 272 A: Cynthia was there.
# 274 A: [Name Deleted]. [Name Deleted]. One guy that Nicole was trying to set up with Cici, so I forgot the name.
# 275 Q: Was Keith there also or...
# 276 A: Keith was there, but he didn't sit with us. You know, he was just there.
# 277 Q: Okay. And did there come a time that Simpson showed up there?
# 278 A: Yeah. We were waiting for a table. Then he showed up, so...
# 279 Q: And did you eventually get a table?
# 280 A: We waited we waited quite a bit.
# 281 Q: Okay. Did there come a time that night that you left before the others?
# 282 MR. BAKER: Leading.
# 283 MS. FISCHMAN: We left? What do you mean?
# 285 Q: That you left before the other people
# 287 Q: you were with.
# 288 A: No. We ate dinner there, so
# 289 Q: And who had you gone there with?
# 291 Q: No. Who had you gone to the restaurant with?
# 292 A: I went with Nicole actually, no. I went myself. We went separate cars.
# 294 A: She was with [Name Deleted]at the time.
# 295 Q: Okay. And you arrived there yourself in your own car?
# 297 Q: And did you leave by yourself?
# 299 Q: Did you leave before the check had come, or everybody left at the same time?
# 300 A: We pretty much left at the same time.
# 301 Q: You didn't leave before the others?
# 302 MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
# 304 Q: Miss Fischman, did you leave before the others?
# 305 MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
# 306 MS. FISCHMAN: Nicole and [Name Deleted]were there while we pretty much left the same time.
# 308 Q: Okay. You didn't express any discomfort about being there and left before dinner was finished?
# 309 A: Oh, no. We finished dinner and everything. We ate, and then, you know, finished we ate and then we left, and that was it.
# 311 MR. KRAMER: Just do the best you can.
BY MR. KELLY: Q: Do the best you can.
# 312 MR. KRAMER: Do the best you can.
# 313 MS. FISCHMAN: Exactly, but you're trying to say what
# 314 MR. KRAMER: No, don't analyze it. Just listen
# 316 Q: Don't wonder what I'm asking. Okay?
# 318 MR. KRAMER: Just think about it
# 319 MS. FISCHMAN: I am.
# 320 MR. KRAMER: and answer to the best of your ability.
# 322 Q: Okay. By the way, did you ever know Nicole to be dishonest?
# 323 A: I'm being dishonest?
# 324 Q: No. Did you ever know Nicole to be dishonest in any way?
# 325 MR.BAKER: Asked and answered four times in three days.
# 328 Q: Could you give me a specific instance or...
# 329 A: Well, when she told me not to tell O.J. what she was doing.
# 330 Q: Okay. Other than that?
# 331 A: That's being dishonest.
# 332 Q: Other than that?
# 333 A: Pretty much that's it.
# 334 Q: Anything she told you that you later found out to not be true?
# 335 A: No. That's pretty much, you know...
# 336 Q: Did she ever exaggerate things?
# 337 A: Exaggerate things?
# 339 A: No, I wouldn't consider that, no.
# 340 Q: Okay. She wasn't overly dramatic, like Faye?
# 341 A: No, not at all. She was a real person.
# 342 Q: Okay. She didn't make things up, did she?
# 344 Q: Okay. This statement that Nicole told you Simpson had made to her about "If I ever catch you with another man, I'll kill you," we had this discussion before with the other attorneys, too, and you indicated that was sometime in 1993?
# 345 A: Yeah, right. Yes.
# 346 Q: Okay. Do you remember what month that was?
# 347 A: When they tried to reconcile, so '93, March, April, around that time.
# 348 Q: Okay. So it was at the time they were reconciling, though. Is that correct?
# 349 A: Right, that was-that week that they were trying to reconcile, when they went out to dinner.
# 350 Q: And Nicole, I believe you indicated she had already had her affair with Marcus?
# 352 Q: Okay. And to the best of your knowledge, after Mr. Simpson had made this statement to her, she didn't date anybody else for that next year or so, did she, Nicole, other than Simpson?
# 353 MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
# 354 MS. FISCHMAN: You mean Nicole? No, she didn't date.
# 356 Q: And to the best of your knowledge, even in April and May of 1994 now-this is still during the reconciliation Simpson did not know Nicole was seeing anybody else, did he?
# 357 A: Simpson did not know? Yes.
# 358 Q: Yes, he did not know?
# 359 A: I don't know. I don't know.
# 360 Q: Okay. You never discussed it with him.
# 362 Q: Okay. You never discussed with Mr. Simpson this guy [Name Deleted]from Cabo, did you?
# 364 Q: Or this guy [Name Deleted]?
# 366 Q: No. Okay. Or Marcus Allen at all.
# 368 Q: Okay. But you talked to him a lot, didn't you?
# 369 A: Yes. Not yeah, right, I would say.
# 370 Q: Okay. And he would talk about Nicole a lot with you also.
# 372 Q: And as far as you knew, though, during the course of these conversations, he never indicated that he knew Nicole had started seeing anybody else again.
# 373 A: That I don't know, no.
# 374 Q: But to the best of your knowledge.
# 375 MR. BAKER: Speculation.
# 376 MS. FISCHMAN: As far as I know, yeah, I don't know.
# 378 Q: Okay. And even into June of 1994, Mr. Simpson never indicated that he knew that Nicole was seeing anybody else.
# 379 MR. KRAMER: Never said anything to Cora?
# 380 MR. KELLY: Yeah, indicated to her, told her.
# 381 MR. KRAMER: Do you understand the question? Do you have it Could you either have it read back or reask it, because
# 383 Q: Okay. Even in June of 1994, up to that time had Simpson ever told you or spoken to you about Nicole seeing anybody else
# 385 Q: since their reconciliation?
# 387 Q: Okay. So as far as you know, even up to the day of the murders, June 12th, 1994, Simpson did not know of Nicole seeing any other person since her reconciliation.
# 389 Q: Okay. Now, you had also indicated that you had a lot of long talks with Mr. Simpson in the two years prior to Nicole's death. Is that right?
# 391 Q: Okay. And would it be fair to say there were different, I guess, phases of their relationship that past two years, meaning January to June of 1992 when they were going through the divorce?
# 393 Q: Okay. Then there was a period after the divorce and before their reconciliation?
# 395 Q: Then the reconciliation. Now, did you receive a large number of phone calls from Mr. Simpson during that January to June period of 1992?
# 397 MS. FISCHMAN: January to June?
# 400 A: What do you mean by a large phone call?
# 401 Q: Well, did you get steady phone calls from Mr. Simpson? .
# 402 A: It wasn't steady. I mean, once every two weeks, something like that. It wasn't all the time, no. He didn't call every day. Is that what you
# 403 Q: Would he call more than once a week?
# 404 A: No. It was just once a week or something like that. It wasn't a lot. I wasn't really that close to him. I was more close to Nicole.
# 405 Q: Okay. Do you recall what you would speak to him about when he would call?
# 406 A: It was always we talked about pretty much the problem with Nicole.
# 407 Q: Okay. Did he ever ask you where Nicole was at any given time?
# 408 A: Where Nicole was?
# 410 MR. BAKER: Leading.
# 411 MS. FISCHMAN: No. Pretty much asked he asked how Nicole was, what is she doing. Yes, what is she doing, you know.
# 413 Q: Did he ever call you late at night?
# 416 A: No. Not late at night, no. Not late at night. I don't think that ever happened.
# 417 Q: Okay. Would he call you at all during the reconciliation period?
# 418 MR. BAKER: You're talking '93?
# 419 MS. FISCHMAN: June of
# 423 Q: into April-May '94.
# 425 Q: Okay. What would be the purpose of those phone calls?
# 426 A: About Nicole, about kids, you know.
# 427 Q: Okay. You said he would call you when he had a problem with Nicole?
# 428 MR. BAKER: Leading.
# 429 MS. FISCHMAN: Problems with Nicole?
# 433 MS. FISCHMAN: Yes, pretty much, yeah.
# 435 Q: Could you tell me what some of those problems were that he called you about?
# 436 A: What Nicole is up to. That's pretty much, you know...
# 437 Q: This was during the reconciliation period.
# 438 A: Oh, during the reconciliation.
# 440 MR. KRAMER: Could you give her again the time frame?
# 442 Q: Yeah. April of 1993 up through May of 1994.
# 443 A: You know, there was a period where O.J. was not calling me, because they were going out a lot.
# 444 Q: Right. That would have been during the reconciliation
# 448 Q: And moving up to May of 1994 now, this last month
# 450 Q: -do you recall him calling you at all during that period?
# 451 A: The last time I spoke to him about the relationship was that walk that we did, and then we went to you know, when I asked him, "I want to talk to you," that was the last one.
# 452 Q: That was when you went to his office then?
# 453 A: Yes, we walked and then went to his office.
# 454 Q: Okay. You don't know what that date was, do you?
# 456 Q: Let me ask you: Do you remember Christian Reichardt's party?
# 457 A: That's April 30.
# 458 Q: 30th. Okay. It was after that. Right?
# 459 MR. BAKER: Leading.
# 461 Q: He was in Puerto Rico before that, wasn't he, Simpson?
# 462 A: Was he in Puerto Rico the whole April, May? Could have been May.
# 463 Q: Okay. What about, do your remember Mother's Day clearly? Was it after Mother's Day?
# 464 A: Yes, what about Mother's Day?
# 465 Q: When you took I am trying to
# 466 A: Yeah, because she had pneumonia on her birthday, which is the 19th. You know, it's gotta be I talked to her I talked to him around April, then, when he got back from Puerto Rico.
# 467 Q: And was this before Nicole's birthday and when she got sick?
# 468 A: Oh, yes, yes, before. Before that.
# 470 A: Before the incident in the car where the kids were picked up, yeah, definitely.
# 471 Q: And this was before she gave the bracelet back?
# 472 A: Before she gave the bracelet? Yes.
# 473 Q: Okay. So it was probably early May?
# 474 A: I'm not sure. Early May or late April, you know, around that time frame.
# 475 Q: Okay. But you can't mark it relative to Christian Reichardt's party? You don't know whether it was before that or after that?
# 477 Q: Okay. Could you tell me, how long did you speak when you went for the walk?
# 479 Q: Yeah. Was it 10 minutes? 20 minutes?
# 480 A: I would say half an hour, something like that.
# 481 Q: And did he do most of the talking?
# 483 Q: Okay. And what were his concerns at that time?
# 484 A: That-well, you know, I told him that "You have one last chance to save your marriage," you know. "Why don't you move to Florida." And at that time I was trying to convince him, you know, to just do something. "Nicole loves you. She really ultimately wants to go back."
And so at the time he was saying, you know, "We gotta" he was just confused. He didn't know. He says, "What does she want?" You know, "I'm with Paula now."
I mean, that's pretty much the kind of conversation. You know, he's upset. He's angry, because he says, you know, "Nicole has to have a sense of commitment here. If she wants to commit, she commits." That's pretty much the conversation.
# 485 Q: So when you took this walk with him, was it your understanding he had gone back to Paula again?
# 486 A: No. I was trying to save the marriage. That's pretty much what I was trying to do.
# 487 Q: Okay. Did he indicate he was thinking of going back to Paula or...
# 488 A: At that time I don't know. I mean, I was trying to save the marriage.
# 489 Q: Okay. He indicated he wanted to save the marriage, didn't he?
# 490 A: Well, he would like to, of course, for Sydney and Justin's sake.
# 491 Q: And did he indicate what Nicole's feeling was towards getting back together at that time?
# 492 A: Well, he said he doesn't know what Nicole wanted.
# 493 Q: Is that what he was asking you about or...
# 494 A: Yes, pretty much.
# 495 Q: And what were you telling him?
# 496 A: Well, I said, you know, "Nicole's going through something, and just give her some time."
# 497 Q: Okay. When you say Nicole was "going through something," had her sort of demeanor or attitude changed at all in these last couple months? I'm talking about April and May of 1994.
# 498 A: Well, she told me she said she wanted to have fun.
# 499 Q: And did she look like she was having fun to you those last couple months?
# 500 A: Well, I mean, fun is going out and stuff like that.
# 501 Q: Well, did she seem happy with her life?
# 502 A: You know what? The outward she seemed, but I think inside, not really.
# 503 Q: Well, did she tell you that?
# 504 A: Well, she was confused. She didn't know what she wanted.
# 505 Q: Did you discuss that with her, though?
# 507 Q: Okay. And she indicated she was confused?
# 511 Q: Did she also indicate she didn't want to move back with Simpson at that time?
# 512 A: She didn't want at the time, but she said, "Ultimately we'll be together."
# 513 Q: Do you recall when she said that?
# 514 A: Well, I can't recall, but that's kinda like what we talked about at the time.
# 515 Q: Where? In May of 1994?
# 517 Q: In May of '94 did Mr. Simpson indicate to you that he was ever going to break up with Nicole, leave her?
# 518 A: He I never talked to him at that time anymore, so I don't know.
# 519 Q: You never talked to him again after that walk and that day in the office?
# 520 A: I think that was the last time.
# 521 MR. KRAMER: You are talking about during that period of time?
# 523 MS. FISCHMAN: I think that was the last time, yes.
# 525 Q: You saw Nicole a lot during that month of May 1994
# 529 Q: Did she ever indicate to you that she was going to leave Simpson?
# 530 A: She yeah, she said that she was thinking about it.
# 531 Q: Okay. Did there ever come a time I mean, you saw her every day, didn't you?
# 532 A: Yeah. She said that she was not ready to go back. She decided that she was just gonna do whatever she has to do first.
# 533 Q: Okay. And did she tell you she had told Simpson she wasn't going to continue their relationship at that time?
# 534 A: Yes. I think it was after the letter.
# 536 A: The IRS letter, right.
# 537 Q: Okay. Well, what she did she attach any significance to the returning of the bracelet, the bracelet she gave back to Simpson?
# 538 A: Well, she told me
# 539 MR. BAKER: Speculation.
# 540 MS. FISCHMAN: she felt guilty.
# 542 Q: Okay. But did she say it was part of ending it with him, in terms of giving back that bracelet?
# 543 MR. BAKER: Leading.
# 544 MS. FISCHMAN: Well, she said it wasn't hers. It's not unlike her. She said, "Where will I use this?"
# 546 Q: Okay. But she also indicated he was trying to buy her with it, didn't he didn't she?
# 547 MR. BAKER: Very leading.
# 548 MS. FISCHMAN: At the time she felt that way, too, yes.
# 550 Q: Yeah. And she didn't want to be bought by him.
# 551 A: Well, this is what we were talking about, like, you know, Cici and I says, "Well, you mean to tell me he's trying to buy you?" you know.
# 552 Q: And she said yes. Right?
# 553 MR. BAKER: Leading.
# 554 MS. FISCHMAN: At that time that's what she thought, yes.
# 556 Q: This was a specific conversation you had with Cici there also?
# 557 A: With Cici. Yeah, I think Cici.
# 558 Q: And this was at Starbucks?
# 559 A: Could be Starbucks. Could be one of our runs. I mean, I don't know. I don't remember.
# 560 Q: What I am trying to ask you, Miss Fischman: Was there a particular time that Nicole indicated to you that she had ended it with Mr. Simpson prior to the IRS letter?
# 561 A: I don't know the specific time, but she was thinking about it because she was even thinking of moving to Redondo Beach and renting. So, you know, she was
# 562 Q: She was looking at places, wasn't she?
# 563 A: Yes, she was looking for a place.
# 564 Q: She had a real estate broker?
# 566 Q: Okay. And this was before the IRS
# 567 MR. PETROCELLI: She didn't answer the question.
# 568 MR. KELLY: I'm sorry?
# 569 MR. PETROCELLI: She had a real estate broker and the answer was yes. She went like this (Indicating), Mr. Kelly.
# 570 MR. KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Petrocelli.
# 571 MR. PETROCELLI: You must pay attention, Mr. Kelly.
# 572 MR. KELLY: I like you covering my back, Mr. Petrocelli.
# 573 MR.BAKER: That was beautiful teamwork.
# 574 MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect laughter.
# 575 MR. KRAMER: The smile's not on everyone's faces, but actually I don't care, but not everyone's laughing.
# 577 Q: You didn't look at any places with Nicole, did you, during that time period?
# 579 Q: Did she tell you why she was looking at other places, other than staying at Bundy?
# 580 MR. BAKER: Leading.
# 581 MS. FISCHMAN: Well, she said first she said she wanted to oh, she started looking after she got the IRS letter because she wanted to lease that place on Bundy and then rent a place like down at the beach in the summer with the kids.
# 583 Q: Okay. Well, she had gotten that letter that last week before her murder, hadn't she?
# 584 MR. BAKER: Leading.
# 585 MS. FISCHMAN: I don't even know when that yeah, I don't know when that letter came. Must be
# 587 Q: It was June 6th, if that
# 590 MR. BAKER: Just because Mr. Kelly says it doesn't make it true.
# 591 MR.PETROCELLI: But what does make it true is the date on the letter.
# 592 MR. BAKER: Well, the best evidence is the letter.
# 593 MS. FISCHMAN: I never saw that letter, so I you know, she just told me about that.
# 595 Q: Okay. Were you there when it came?
# 596 A: No, I wasn't there.
# 597 Q: Were you there the day she received it?
# 598 A: No, I wasn't there.
# 599 Q: Did you see her the day after she received it?
# 601 Q: Could you describe her mood to me?
# 602 A: Oh, no, she called me when she got that letter.
# 603 Q: Okay. What did she say to you?
# 604 A: She told me that "I got a letter from O.J."
# 605 Q: Okay. And was she pleased with it?
# 606 A: No. She said that "This is the guy" "This is the" something like to the effect that "He wants me to go to jail," something like that.
# 607 Q: Okay. Now, you are speaking very calmly, Miss Fischman. Was that the way Nicole was when she called you?
# 608 A: You know what? 'Cause I'm tired.
# 610 A: I'm just telling you. But do you want me to express?
# 611 Q: I want you to tell me exactly what she said and how she said it.
# 612 MR. BAKER: Oh, you didn't ask her for that.
# 613 MS. FISCHMAN: I'm tired.
# 615 Q: I know you are, but you've done a lot of work here the last couple days, but if you can think about this for a second and tell me exactly what she said and how she said it when she called you, that would be great.
# 616 A: That's exactly what I'm in a calmly way.
# 617 Q: Okay. Could you tell me again now exactly what she said, Nicole, when she called.
# 618 MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
# 619 MS. FISCHMAN: I'm trying to remember. Pretty much that's the gist of it.
# 622 Q: Did she use any vulgarity when she spoke to you?
# 623 A: I don't remember.
# 624 Q: Was her voice raised at all?
# 626 Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say she was yelling about it?
# 627 A: Yeah, she didn't like the fact that she says, you know, "That's the last money I have," you know, because she had like 90,000 or something; she has to pay 90,000.
# 628 Q: Okay. Was she angry about the letter?
# 630 Q: Okay. And did she indicate she was very angry at Simpson for sending the letter?
# 632 Q: And did she express concern about the kids also because of the letter?
# 633 A: Well, she was afraid she was gonna go to jail.
# 634 Q: Okay. And did she other than that, did she express any other concerns?
# 636 Q: When she said she was afraid of going to jail, is that what Nicole said to you?
# 638 Q: Okay. And how long was this conversation with her?
# 639 A: That was it. It was a short conversation. She just expressed her anger, and that's it.
# 640 Q: She was definitely angry, though?
# 641 A: I said, "Oh, okay."
# 642 MR. BAKER: Speculation.
# 644 Q: But my question is: She was definitely angry when she called you?
# 645 A: Well, she was very upset, yes.
# 646 Q: Okay. And you knew Nicole very well. Right?
# 647 A: Pretty much, yes.
# 648 Q: Was this probably one of the more upset times you had spoken to her?
# 650 MS. FISCHMAN: I think she was surprised, yeah, she was, yeah.
# 652 Q: More angry than other times?
# 653 MR. BAKER: Speculation.
# 654 MS. FISCHMAN: More angry than other times?
# 656 Q: Well, was it about the most angry you had seen her at Mr. Simpson?
# 657 MR. BAKER: I thought it was a telephone call, yes.
# 658 MS. FISCHMAN: That's pretty much, yeah, she was angry.
# 660 Q: Okay. And did she tell you when she had received the letter relative to the phone call she made to you?
# 661 A: I'm sorry. Could you please repeat the question, please.
# 662 Q: Okay. Nicole had gotten this letter from Simpson delivered to her. Correct?
# 664 Q: Did she tell you how it was delivered?
# 666 Q: Okay. Did she tell you when the letter had come?
# 668 MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
# 670 Q: Okay. Did she indicate to you she had just received the letter when she called you?
# 672 Q: Okay. Did she tell you she had received it that day?
# 673 A: She just said, "I just got a letter," so...
# 674 Q: Okay. Did she read it to you, by the way?
# 676 Q: Prior to that phone call, had she ever mentioned anything to you about Simpson making threats about the IRS to her?
# 678 Q: Never discussed that with you?
# 679 MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me.
# 680 MR.BAKER: Don't look at Mr. Petrocelli if he wants to change your answers. You are just here to testify honestly.
Let the record reflect that plaintiffs' counsel are engaged in a summit meeting.
# 681 MR. KELLY: Now you're excited.
# 682 Q: Prior to this phone call
# 683 A: Which phone call?
# 684 Q: Nicole's phone call to you.
# 686 Q: Okay. -about the IRS leader letter, was there a time a few days earlier she had called you after she had spoken to Mr. Simpson also?
# 687 MR. BAKER: Leading. Asked and answered.
# 688 MS. FISCHMAN: I don't remember.
# 690 Q: You don't remember her calling and saying that she had hung up on Simpson and they had had a fight?
# 691 MR. BAKER: Very leading.
# 692 MS. FISCHMAN: I don't remember that. I don't remember that incident, no.
# 694 Q: Okay. During these last two weeks before Nicole's death
# 696 Q: Okay? did you speak to Nicole every day?
# 697 A: Did I speak to Nicole every day?
# 699 A: Pretty much, yes.
# 700 Q: Did you talk to her about Simpson every day?
# 702 Q: Okay. Did she ever indicate to you that she had spoken to him at anytime the last two weeks?
# 704 Q: Okay. Do you recall what those conversations were?
# 705 A: Well, pretty much she was saying that she says, you know, "My mom told me that" "Mom had told me that O.J.'s gonna give me a hard time, meaning financially.
# 706 Q: Okay. About what?
# 707 A: I guess financially. Money.
# 708 Q: I know, but why would he be giving her a hard time? Over what?
# 709 MR. BAKER: Speculation. Vague.
# 710 MS. FISCHMAN: Because they were ending the relationship.
# 712 Q: And it was your understanding that she was ending it with him. Is that correct?
# 713 A: I thought it yeah, pretty much, yes.
# 714 Q: Okay. And she wanted to leave him, and he didn't want her to leave him. Is that correct also?
# 715 MR. BAKER: Speculation.
# 716 MS. FISCHMAN: I thought so.
# 718 Q: That was your impression.
# 719 A: Right, because I talk I never talked to O.J., so I was only talking to Nicole, yes.
# 720 Q: Okay. But based on your conversations with Nicole, it was your understanding that Nicole was leaving Simpson and that he did not want Nicole to leave him. Correct?
# 721 A: Oh, you mean O.J. not wanting to leave Nicole?
# 722 Q: O.J. didn't want Nicole to leave him.
# 723 MR. BAKER: Speculation. Vague.
# 724 MS. FISCHMAN: They were pretty much burnt out with each other at that time.
# 727 A: At the time Nicole told me that O.J. was going out with Paula.
# 728 Q: But other than just telling you that, didn't there ever come a time Nicole said, "It's through between us. I'm not seeing him anymore"?
# 729 A: Yeah, yeah, because, you know, she said to me, "If Paula's still around, you know, it's still the same. There's another woman," and she will not take that.
# 730 Q: And Nicole told you this?
# 732 Q: Okay. Did Nicole tell you she had told this to Simpson also?
# 733 A: I don't know about that.
# 734 Q: Okay. By the way, you said before that it was your understanding that Nicole finally ended it when she received the IRS letter.
# 736 Q: Okay. Is that something she told you as part of the phone call?
# 737 A: No. No. She was just she was just expressing her anger, her disappointment.
# 738 Q: With that phone call.
# 740 Q: Okay. And other than the fact she said, "He's trying to send me to jail," you don't remember anything else she said to you?
# 741 A: Actually that's what she said: "That guy's trying to send me to jail," you know.
# 742 Q: Okay. How long was Nicole sick with double pneumonia? Do you remember approximately how long that was?
# 743 A: Oh, she was actually she couldn't run for a week, so we ran and then it got worse, her coughing got worse, and that was it. She was...
# 744 Q: Okay. And I believe you indicated you had never seen Simpson over at the house during that week she was sick?
# 746 Q: Okay. Did you talk to her everyday?
# 748 Q: Okay. Did she ever indicate to you that Simpson had been over to the house that week while she was sick?
# 749 A: Not really, no. I mean, she mentioned about the flowers and the chicken soup, you know. Chicken soup, yeah.
# 750 Q: That was just one day, wasn't it?
# 751 A: I don't remember. No, I don't remember.
# 752 Q: Okay. Do you know who was up there taking care of Nicole, if anybody was?
# 753 A: Alvia was there.
# 754 Q: Okay. Do you know whether her mom was up there at all?
# 755 A: No, I don't think so. I don't know.
# 756 Q: Okay. Your kids would usually I mean, you said they spent an awful lot of time with the Simpson kids, didn't they?
# 758 Q: Okay. And when you would take your daughter, your 12-year-old daughter, 11-year-old daughter, somewhere, to an amusement park or something, would she usually take Sydney with her also?
# 760 Q: Okay. Or if Sydney was going somewhere, would she usually take your daughter with her, too?
# 762 Q: Was that always the case?
# 767 A: The four of them were inseparable.
# 768 Q: Okay. As of June 12th, 1994, do you know whether your daughter had any plans of going anywhere with Sydney?
# 770 Q: That was the day of the murders.
# 771 A: No, we didn't have any plans, no.
# 772 Q: Okay. There was no discussion of your kids and the Simpson kids
# 774 Q: in the near future going anywhere?
# 776 Q: Okay. All right. Do you keep a calendar book, by the way?
# 778 Q: Ever keep a calendar book?
# 780 Q: In '94 did you keep a calendar book?
# 782 Q: Okay. With the recital, we're talking June 12th now, how long was that entire recital from start to finish?
# 783 A: It was an hour. Oh, you mean from when we sat there till
# 784 Q: Yeah, till the bitter end.
# 785 A: Oh, my God, till...
# 786 Q: It wasn't as long as the deposition, was it?
# 787 A: It seemed that I think it was
# 788 Q: It was a long one, wasn't it? Weren't there 30 some acts? Do you recall?
# 789 A: Oh, yeah, and it so happened that the
# 790 MR. BAKER: I think this is leading.
# 791 MR. KELLY: It's not. I'm refreshing her memory.
# 792 MS. FISCHMAN: I think she was the last act.
# 794 Q: Could you approximate the length of time you were at the recital from the time you arrived there till the time you left?
# 796 Q: Do you recall how long after you arrived there that Mr. Simpson arrived there?
# 797 A: He arrived in middle of the program, so I would say an hour.
# 798 Q: And you indicated that he sat near Nicole?
# 799 A: Yes. The same row with Nicole.
# 800 Q: And how many seats were empty between them?
# 801 MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
# 802 MS. FISCHMAN: About three, three seats.
# 804 Q: And were you sitting in front of them or behind them?
# 805 A: I was sitting in front of them. No. I was they were behind me, yeah, in front of them.
# 806 Q: Okay. Did you turn around to talk to Nicole at all during the recital?
# 807 A: About any specific?
# 808 Q: Just in general.
# 809 A: Yeah, we did, yes.
# 810 Q: Okay. And were your kids back with the Simpson kids in between?
# 812 Q: Okay. Did you ever during that hour period or more ever see O.J. Simpson talk to Nicole Simpson?
# 814 Q: Did you ever see them looking at each other, even?
# 815 A: I was behind them, so
# 816 Q: You were in front of them.
# 817 A: Yeah, I was in front of them, right.
# 818 Q: Okay. There was an intermission during this recital, wasn't there?
# 820 Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing either Mr. Simpson or Nicole standing up during the intermission?
# 822 Q: They both stayed in their seats?
# 823 A: See, O.J. left sometime during the program, and then when he got back, he was sitting at the corner and he was holding flowers.
# 824 Q: So how long was he there before he left?
# 827 A: I don't know. I mean, I wasn't paying attention.
# 828 Q: Okay. When you say he was seated in a "corner," he was by himself, wasn't he?
# 829 A: Yes. Because the kids were all in back already, the whole at the time.
# 830 Q: Okay. And he grabbed the second separate chair and was seated in the corner of the gym?
# 832 Q: Okay. And how long was he seated there for?
# 835 A: I don't remember. I don't know.
# 836 Q: Okay. Well, the last act
# 837 A: 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes.
# 838 Q: Well, the last act was your daughter and Sydney, was it not?
# 839 A: I would say 10 minutes.
# 840 Q: Yeah. The last act had your daughter and Sydney in it?
# 842 Q: Okay. And at that point he was seated back in the corner on the separate chair?
# 844 Q: Okay. And was that the only act that Sydney was in during the recital, was the last act?
# 846 Q: So when Sydney performed, Mr. Simpson was sitting in the back of the auditorium in a separate chair, and Nicole was in her regular seat that she had been in for the whole recital. Is that correct also?
# 847 A: At that time we were all standing up. We were all excited, so I didn't even notice that. Because we were all standing up because we were so excited about the program, so I don't know. It was the whole thing was like
# 848 Q: Okay. Well, did-
# 849 A: I don't remember. I don't remember.
# 850 Q: Do you remember where Simpson was at that time?
# 851 A: Well, the last time I saw him, he was at the corner, so that was the last time I saw him.
# 852 Q: You didn't see him move up again, did you?
# 854 Q: Okay. And the last time you saw Nicole, she was still in that row of seats where the kids were also?
# 855 A: They were all together already because we were all standing up. We were all
# 856 Q: Including Nicole.
# 858 Q: And Mr. Simpson was separate from all of you.
# 859 A: He was not with us, yes.
# 860 Q: And that's all I'm asking. He was separate, back in the corner.
# 862 Q: And you and Nicole and the Brown family and everybody was together.
# 863 A: We were all yes.
# 864 Q: Okay. And you didn't talk to Simpson at all that day at the recital.
# 865 A: No. I said, "You look tired."
# 866 Q: And where was he seated when you said that?
# 867 A: I just look in the back and I says, you know, "You look tired."
# 868 Q: Yeah. That was in the row of chairs there?
# 869 A: Yes, yes, when he just walked in.
# 870 Q: And you didn't talk to him after that at all?
# 872 Q: Did you see who he spoke to, if anybody, during the recital?
# 874 Q: Your husband was at the recital, wasn't he?
# 876 Q: Did you see him speaking to your husband at all?
# 877 A: Well, I asked Ron to take pictures you know. He says, "Why don't we all take pictures," stuff like that, so that was yeah.
# 878 Q: That was after the recital.
# 879 A: That was during the recital. That was, you know, while we were waiting for the program, you know, when Sydney was there and [Name Deleted], I said, "Take pictures," so
# 880 Q: But that wasn't him talking to Simpson at all, was it?
# 882 Q: It had nothing to do with Simpson.
# 884 Q: Okay. My question to you is: Did you ever see your husband talking to Simpson at all either during or after the recital?
# 885 A: I didn't see him, no.
# 886 Q: Okay. Did you see Simpson talking to anybody either during or after the recital?
# 887 A: I saw a few people saying hello, yeah.
# 888 Q: Okay. Other than that?
# 890 Q: Nicole had a camera at the recital, didn't she?
# 891 A: I'm sorry. What?
# 892 Q: Did Nicole have a camera at the recital?
# 893 A: I don't remember. Yes, I think so. Or a video. I'm not sure.
# 894 Q: Okay. She had some sort of camera, though.
# 896 Q: And why did you ask your husband to take a picture of Simpson with Sydney?
# 897 MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
# 898 MS. FISCHMAN: I don't know. I mean, to me I thought it was cute, that they had that nice outfit, you know.
# 900 Q: Okay. Were you under the impression that Nicole wouldn't be taking a picture of Sydney with her father?
# 901 MR. BAKER: Leading.
# 902 MS. FISCHMAN: No, I was not even thinking about that. No.
# 904 Q: Let me ask you: You've said you've had long conversations with Simpson since his release from jail, didn't you?
# 905 MR. BAKER: Misstates her testimony.
# 906 MS. FISCHMAN: Long conversations? BY MR. KELLY:
# 907 Q: Well, conversations with him.
# 909 Q: Okay. And that's been over at Rockingham?
# 911 Q: Okay. Could you tell me the first time you were over there and spoke to him after his release?
# 914 MR. BAKER: I think this has been covered.
# 915 MR. KELLY: It hasn't.
# 916 MS. FISCHMAN: I the first time was I asked where the kids were, so I Gigi called me oh, no. Actually I called, you know, the housekeeper. I asked if he's here. And so I said I would like to see him. That was it.
# 919 A: And so I went there, and that's pretty much you know, I asked how he was doing, "How are the kids? Did you see the kids?" and that's what we did.
# 920 Q: Okay. Did you talk about the trial at all?
# 922 Q: Did you talk about Nicole at all?
# 923 A: We talked about Nicole. I you know, I kinda said you know, we commiserated, you know. We were both crying.
# 924 Q: Did he indicate to you what his plans were now that he was out?
# 925 A: At that time he said that he's "They're investigating. They're gonna look for the real killers."
# 926 Q: Who did he say was investigating?
# 927 A: He said he's hired investigators, so...
# 928 Q: He said he had hired them?
# 929 A: Well, he said there are private investigators there and they're looking, so...
# 930 Q: Did he say these were people that he had hired?
# 931 A: I don't know. I didn't go into specific.
# 932 Q: Okay. But it was your impression that he was actively pursuing an investigation
# 934 Q: for the real killers? Have you discussed this again with him since that time?
# 936 Q: You've never discussed this investigation again?
# 938 Q: Okay. Has he ever indicated to you the status of any investigation?
# 940 Q: Has he ever indicated to you they have any leads as to who the real killers might be?
# 942 Q: Has he ever indicated to you he has turned up some evidence that indicates he wasn't guilty of these murders?
# 944 Q: Have you ever just asked him point-blank whether he was innocent of these murders?
# 945 A: I never asked him.
# 946 Q: After this one conversation you had about investigators and the real killers, when was the next time you spoke to him?
# 947 A: I guess it was during the time where he was going to have the kids. It was I think around October. It was Sydney's birthday. I don't know. Around that time. And he wanted to know if [Name Deleted] would like to go with them. You know, he said that Sydney would like to have [Name Deleted] with her.
# 948 Q: Okay. [Name Deleted] did go with her, didn't she?
# 950 Q: And they went to
# 952 Q: Neverland? Okay. How many days was that for?
# 954 Q: Okay. Did Simpson went with them. Right?
# 956 Q: Okay. Did you go with them for that?
# 958 Q: And did you have any discussions with Simpson at that time about the murder, real killers or investigation or anything?
# 960 Q: Okay. And when was the next time after that?
# 961 A: Next time was when the kids when he had the kids again, and so he called me where to bring [Name Deleted] at the time, because at the time the kids were not at Rockingham.
# 962 Q: Okay. And did you bring them somewhere else?
# 964 Q: Was that [Name Deleted]'s house, do you remember?
# 965 A: Yes, Don [Name Deleted]'s house, yes.
# 966 Q: Okay. And did you visit with him for any period of time when you took the kids down there?
# 967 A: No. I just dropped [Name Deleted], and then [Name Deleted] spent the night there with Sydney, and then I went to because at the time I wanted to see Sydney. That's the first time I've seen Sydney since, you know, this whole thing, because I said I wanted to see the kids, so that was it. And then the following day I went to pick up [Name Deleted].
# 968 Q: Okay. No real conversations
# 972 Q: Okay. Has there been any time since then where you've been over at Rockingham and sat down and visited with Mr. Simpson for any length of time?
# 973 A: That's pretty much what happened.
# 974 Q: Okay. Well, you said you had had some meals over there, too.
# 975 A: Meals is when the kids were there right, yes.
# 976 Q: Okay. But sit-down ones with Simpson there, too?
# 977 A: Well, one time was the Christmas we were exchanging gifts. That was Christmas Day. He invited us, the whole family, to his house.
# 978 Q: Did you have any discussions with him then or
# 980 Q: About the murders.
# 983 A: Well, we always, you know sometimes things like, "This is what Nicole would love. This is" you know, that's pretty much what we
# 984 Q: Any discussion of any investigation?
# 986 Q: And the only attorney you have spoken to with Mr. Simpson is Mr. Leonard that time?
# 988 MR. KRAMER: Is this in connection with the civil case? That's what you're asking about?
# 993 Q: Okay. And no other attorneys?
# 995 Q: Okay. You never saw Mr. Baker over at Mr. Simpson's house?
# 998 (Discussion held off the record.) # 999 MR. KELLY: Okay, I'm done.
# 1000 MR. KRAMER: Can we take a break for a few moments, please?
# 1001 MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
# 1002 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 11:41. (Recess.) (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 165 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)