Redirect examination of Ms. Fischman by Michael Brewer

📄 Redirect examination of Ms. Fischman by Michael Brewer — Wednesday, March 20, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\DEPOSITION\1996\MAR\20\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-MS-FIS.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 19 of 31

◀ Cross-examination of Ms. Fischman by Robert Baker Redirect examination of Ms. Fischman by John Kelly ▶

Witness: Ms. Fischman
Examiner: Michael Brewer
Called by: Plaintiff • Date: Wednesday, March 20, 1996 • Utterances: 811

Mr. Brewer cross-examines Cora Fischman, Nicole Brown Simpson's closest friend, establishing through methodical questioning that Nicole had told her she was physically afraid of OJ Simpson, that the 1989 beating was confirmed, and that Fischman's own initial reaction upon learning of the murder was to suspect OJ. The examination also extracts that AC Cowlings himself initially believed OJ was guilty, and surfaces a remarkable moment where OJ asked Fischman from jail whether she thought he was capable of killing Nicole — and she declined to say no.

# 1

BY MR. BREWER:

# 2 Q:

Miss Fischman, my name is Michael Brewer, and I represent Sharon Rufo. I have just a few questions for you.

You had said earlier that Nicole was afraid of OJ. Simpson. Is that true?

# 3 A:

True.

# 4 Q:

And when you say "afraid," she was afraid for her physical safety. Is that true?

# 5 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 6 MS. FISCHMAN:

Physical and I guess because of her-because of his voice.

# 7

BY MR. BREWER:

# 8 Q:

Okay. What about his voice?

# 9 A:

Well, she said that OJ. has a very, very strong voice, you know, and it's a scary voice.

KEY QUOTE

# 10 Q:

So would it be fair to say that as of June of 1994, you were aware that Nicole Simpson was afraid-physically afraid of OJ. Simpson?

# 11 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 12

BY MR. BREWER:

# 13 Q:

Is that a fair statement?

# 14 A:

Well, you know, when she said, "I'm afraid"-not afraid. You know, "I'm afraid of OJ.," yes, physically afraid, yes.

# 15 Q:

In fact she told you about a 1989 incident in which he had beaten her. Is that true?

# 16 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 17 MS. FISCHMAN:

That's true.

# 18

BY MR. BREWER:

# 19 Q:

And he had caused her physical injury. Is that true?

# 20 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 21 MS. FISCHMAN:

True.

# 22

BY MR. BREWER:

# 23 Q:

And she had even told you or you had even made a comparison-she had made a comparison with you with respect to bruising that she had received in connection with that beating when you were talking about bruising that you had on your body. True?

# 24 A:

True.

# 25 Q:

Has Nicole ever told you that anyone else has ever beaten her?

# 26 A:

If Nicole told me?

# 27 Q:

Yeah. Did Nicole tell you, other than Mr. Simpson-

# 28 A:

No.

# 29 Q:

-has she ever told you that anyone, anyone in this universe, has beaten her?

# 30 A:

She never told me anything.

# 31 Q:

Has she told you that anyone has caused her physical harm other than OJ. Simpson?

# 32 A:

No.

# 33 Q:

So as of the time of her death, the only person that she had ever told you about or that you had knowledge of that had caused her physical harm was OJ. Simpson. Is that true?

# 34 A:

True.

# 35 Q:

Has Nicole Brown Simpson ever told you that she was afraid of anyone else other than OJ. Simpson?

# 36 A:

She was afraid of anyone?

# 37 Q:

Yes.

# 38 A:

No.

# 39 Q:

Did she ever identify a person by name and indicated to you that she was afraid of that person?

# 40 A:

No.

# 41 Q:

The only person in the universe that Nicole Brown Simpson has ever identified to you as a person that she was afraid of was OJ. Simpson. Is that true?

# 42 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 43 MS. FISCHMAN:

True.

# 44

BY MR. BREWER:

# 45 Q:

And as of June of l994, that would also be true. Correct?

# 46 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 47 MS. FISCHMAN:

True.

# 48

BY MR. BREWER:

# 49 Q:

Is there anything that you ever observed during the course of seeing Nicole and Mr. Simpson that caused you to disbelieve the sincerity of her statement that she was afraid of OJ Simpson? MR. KRAMER: Do you understand the question?

# 50 MS. FISCHMAN:

She was afraid?

# 51 MR. KRAMER:

He is not asking if she was afraid. Was there anything- perhaps the question should be read back.

# 52

BY MR. BREWER:

# 53 Q:

Well, why don't you see if you understand the question before I start reasking it. Do you understand what I'm asking you?

# 54 A:

No.

# 55 MR. BAKER:

That's a worthy "Could you be more vague" objection.

# 56 MR. BREWER:

Excuse me?

# 57 MR. BAKER:

"Could you be more vague" objection.

# 58 MR. BREWER:

Well, I thought that was copyrighted.

# 59 MR. PETROCELLI:

Like father, like son.

# 60

BY MR. BREWER:

# 61 Q:

Let me ask it a different way: When Nicole indicated to you that she was afraid, you believed her. Right.'

# 62 A:

Did I believe it?

# 63 Q:

Yeah.

# 64 A:

Yes.

# 65 Q:

You didn't believe she was making it up. Right?

# 66 A:

Yes.

# 67 Q:

You didn't believe that her statement or her concerns with respect to her being afraid of OJ. were insincere. Is that true?

# 68 A:

Was what?

# 69 Q:

Insincere.

# 70 A:

True.

# 71 Q:

Is there anything that you ever observed during the course of that relationship between OJ. and Nicole that led you to believe that Nicole's statement about being afraid of OJ.

Simpson was insincere?

# 72 A:

Led to believe? I don't...

# 73 Q:

Your answer is no?

# 74 A:

No.

# 75 Q:

Okay. Now, how did you first hear of Nicole's death?

# 76 A:

How did I first hear? Pam Schwartz told me.

# 77 Q:

By telephone?

# 78 A:

Yes.

# 79 Q:

And did you go over to her house?

# 80 A:

Yeah.

# 81 Q:

Did you drive over there?

# 82 A:

Yeah.

# 83 Q:

Were you wearing jogging attire when you got over there?

# 84 A:

Yes. I was waiting for her call.

# 85 Q:

Okay. You were at home waiting for Nicole's call?

# 86 A:

Yeah, because we were going to run.

# 87 Q:

And Pam Schwartz called you?

# 88 A:

Yeah.

# 89 Q:

And told you that she had been killed?

# 90 A:

Yeah.

# 91 Q:

Did she tell you anything about the facts and circumstances of her murder?

# 92 A:

No.

# 93 Q:

Did she tell you whether anyone else was involved?

# 94 A:

No.

# 95 Q:

Did she tell you whether there was another victim.,

# 96 A:

No.

# 97 Q:

When you went over to the murder scene, did you have a chance to see actually where Nicole's body was?

# 98 A:

At the time I saw a lot of blood. There was blood all over the gate, and there was a lot of-you know, the dogs, and they told me that...

# 99 Q:

Let me ask a question: Who did you talk to?

# 100 MR. KRAMER:

At the scene at the time when she arrived?

# 101 MR. BREWER:

Yeah.

# 102 Q:

The time we're talking about, at the scene of the murder when you went over there, who did you talk to?

# 103 A:

I talked to a policeman there.

# 104 Q:

Did they tell you that someone else was also a victim,

# 105 A:

No. I just said, "What happened here?"

# 106 Q:

And what did that person tell you?

# 107 A:

They said, "We can't give you any information."

# 108 Q:

Was that a uniformed police officer?

# 109 A:

Yes.

Q And so the only thing you knew is that Nicole had been killed. Right?

# 110 A:

Yes.

# 111 Q:

Did you assume that she had been killed on the pathway into her property because of the blood that you observed?

# 112 A:

Yes.

# 113 Q:

Did you know anything about how she had been killed?

# 114 A:

No.

# 115 Q:

Did anyone else say anything to you at the murder scene with respect to the facts and circumstances of the murders other than the statement by a police officer that she had been killed?

# 116 A:

Well, they made-the police told me to talk to the two guys, and they said, "Identify yourself."

I said, "I'm Nicole's friend.. And the first question they asked me is, "What was OJ."-"Was OJ. at the recital?"

I said "Yes. What happened here?" And then so I said-

And they asked, "What was he wearing?" And they said, "What kind of shoes was he wearing at the recital?" I said, "He was.-I don't remember. He was wearing black loafers with no socks." That's what I said.

# 117 Q:

Do you understand why they were asking those questions with respect to Mr. Simpson?

# 118 A:

Well, at that time I said, "Why? He did it?" you know. At the time that was the first thing that entered my mind. I mean, my God, he did this? You know.

# 119 Q:

So you drew some association between the questions that you were being asked with Mr. Simpson-

# 120 A:

Yeah.

# 121 Q:

-and his possible involvement?

# 122 A:

Because I thought he was caught. I thought that, you know, that they got him or something.

# 123 Q:

Okay. Just so my question is clear and your answer is clear, though, at the time that you were being asked questions with respect to Mr. Simpson's attire and whether he was at the recital, you drew some association between Mr. Simpson's possible involvement in these murders and being asked these questions.

Is that a fair statement?

# 124 A:

Yes.

# 125 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 126

BY MR. BREWER:

# 127 Q:

And then you ran away from the murder scene, right, being mobbed by media and questions?

# 128 A:

Exactly, yeah.

# 129 Q:

And did you go home at that time?

# 130 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 131 Q:

Did you begin to watch the news?

# 132 A:

At that time my phone was ringing. I don't know. I mean, everything was -I was-it was a lot of confusion already at the time.

# 133 Q:

You were confused because your best friend had just been killed.

# 134 A:

Yeah, I was shocked. I was numb. I was, you know-I didn't know what was going on.

# 135 Q:

You didn't know what happened. Right?

# 136 A:

I didn't know what happened.

# 137 Q:

: You were interested in finding out what happened. Right?

# 138 A:

Of course I was.

# 139 Q:

And it was important to you to find out why Nicole was killed and who killed her. Right?

# 140 A:

Right.

# 141 Q:

And I take it during the day you attempted to develop information or illicit information to answer those questions for you. Is that true?

# 142 A:

Yeah.

# 143 Q:

And you turned on the news. Is that true?

# 144 A:

Right. True.

# 145 Q:

And did you contact friends of Nicole's?

# 146 A:

Yeah, people were calling me already. Everybody was calling me at that time.

# 147 Q:

People were calling you for information?

# 148 A:

I mean the media, friends of Nicole, and they were saying, you know, "I'm sorry you lost your friend," you know. At that time everybody was calling. The phone was ringing a lot.

# 149 Q:

Let's be clear on something. People were calling you. Right?

# 150 A:

Yes.

# 151 Q:

Were you calling other people?

# 152 A:

I was also calling, yeah.

# 153 Q:

Okay. Because you were trying to find out what happened. Is that true?

# 154 A:

True.

# 155 Q:

You were trying to find out who was responsible. Is that true?

# 156 A:

True.

# 157 Q:

And who did you first call to find out-

# 158 A:

Who?

# 159 Q:

-who was responsible? Who was the very first person that you called to find out this information that may lead to the idendty of the persons responsible for this murder?

# 160 A:

I first called?

# 161 Q:

Yes. Who did you call?

# 162 A:

I don't know. I was-I called my sister-in-law in the car. I called Ron, you know.

# 163 Q:

So you called your husband?

# 164 A:

Yeah. I told him what happened.

# 165 Q:

Had he heard anything about the murders when you talked to him.,

# 166 A:

He didn't know about it.

# 167 Q:

So your communication with trim was the very first information he had relative-

# 168 A:

Yes.

# 169 Q:

-to these murders?

# 170 A:

Yes.

# 171 Q:

What did he say when you told him that Nicole had been killed?

# 172 A:

He said, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry, you know.

# 173 Q:

Did you tell Ron that you had been asked questions about OJ. Simpson?

# 174 A:

No. At the time we were just like -I was just calling-I called the school, you know.

That's pretty much what happened.

# 175 Q:

Well, didn't it cross your mind that perhaps Mr. Simpson was involved?

# 176 A:

It did cross my mind, yeah, sure.

# 177 Q:

And the reason why it crossed your mind is that this was a person that Nicole Brown Simpson had told you that she was afraid of. Right?

# 178 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 179

BY MR. BREWER:

# 180 Q:

Isn't that true?

# 181 A:

Yes, true.

# 182 Q:

And this was a person that had physically beaten her in the past. Isn't that true?

# 183 MR. BAKER:

Leading. Assumes facts not in evidence.

# 184 MS. FISCHMAN:

True.

# 185

BY MR. BREWER:

# 186 Q:

And that caused you to begin thinking that maybe Mr. Simpson was the person who committed this horrific murder. Isn't that true?

# 187 A:

True.

# 188 Q:

Now, was there at some point during that first day a conversation that you had with someone where you expressed this suspicion?

# 189 A:

Yeah. You know, we were trying to figure out what happened, you know, who could have done this. If OJ. did it, why did he do it. So we were trying to- trying to figure out, trying to find answers.

# 190 Q:

When you say "we," are you talking about-

# 191 A:

I mean like [Name Deleted] and Kris Jenner and, you know, my sister-in-law [Name Deleted], and I was... [Name Deleted]. You know we're trying to figure out, you know what really happened here, you know. That's-my friends.

# 192 Q:

Was one of the themes that was running between these communications that you were having with your friends the fact that OJ. might have done this?

# 193 MR. BAKER:

Vague.

# 194 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yes, we were trying to figure out what really happened.

# 195

BY MR. BREWER:

# 196 Q:

Okay. And at some point during that day did you and your husband, Mr. Fischman, have a discussion with respect to the possibility that OJ. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 197 A:

Yeah, we talked about that, too.

# 198 Q:

All right. And did Mr. Fischman indicate to you that he suspected that Mr. Simpson was responsible for the death of Nicole?

# 199 A:

If my husband thought?

# 200 Q:

Did he tell you that he thought OJ. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 201 A:

Well, we all thought that the first time when we heard the incident, the whole thing.

# 202 Q:

When you say, "we all thought that...when we heard the incident," you mean when you heard that Nicole was murdered-

# 203 A:

The first-

# 204 Q:

Excuse me.-everyone that you knew and talked to that day drew the same conclusion that you did: That Mr. Simpson was the person that was responsible for the Nicole's murder. Is that what you're saying?

# 205 A:

True.

# 206 Q:

Including Ron Fischman?

# 207 A:

True.

# 208 Q:

Okay. Can you identify every single person-you've identified some of them. I want to get a complete list of the people that you talked to that day. [Name Deleted], right, was one of them.'

# 209 A:

Yes.

# 210 Q:

[Name Deleted]. Right?

# 211 A:

Yes.

# 212 Q:

Your husband. Right?

# 213 A:

Right.

# 214 Q:

Your sister-in-law?

# 215 A:

Yes.

# 216 Q:

Who else?

# 217 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 218 Q:

Okay.

# 219 A:

My brothers, my sister, friends, neighbors that came.

# 220 Q:

What neighbors did you talk to about Mr. Simpson?

# 221 A:

Oh, no neighbors, no, no, no, no, no. I was gonna say our neighbor, but we shooed her away. We said, "No, we didn't want to talk."

Oh, who else. That was pretty much...

# 222 Q:

Okay. And during the day were you continuing to monitor the news developments?

# 223 A:

Uh-huh, yes.

# 224 Q:

And were you getting tidbits of information relative to evidence that was being developed and the facts and circumstances of the murders?

# 225 A:

True, yes.

# 226 Q:

At some point did you learn that there was another victim.,

# 227 A:

Yes.

# 228 Q:

When was that?

# 229 A:

When was that?

# 230 Q:

Yes.

# 231 A:

Actually when I was-when I heard that there was another victim, I said, "Oh, my God, it's either Ron Goldman or the guy at Toscana, Mark."

# 232 Q:

So you-

# 233 A:

So at the time when it was not identified, I thought of those two people.

# 234 Q:

So the very first time that you heard there was another victim-

# 235 A:

Yes.

# 236 Q:

First of all, did you know it was a male victim.;

# 237 A:

Yes.

# 238 Q:

The very first time that you heard there was another victim, it was identified as a male victim; you drew an association between that victim and Ron Goldman or someone at Toscana's?

# 239 A:

The waiter at Toscana.

# 240 Q:

[Name Deleted]?

# 241 A:

No. Mark. Mark.

# 242 Q:

Mark. What's Mark's last name?

# 243 A:

I forgot his name. But Mark-he was one of the pallbearers. I forgot his last name.

# 244 Q:

Why did you suspect that Mark may be the other victim?

# 245 A:

Because Nicole was very attracted to Mark, and at that time-see, Nicole went to Mezzaluna, and Ron and I and our kids went to Toscana so-and Mark was there. So I thought that since Mark saw me at Toscana, oh, probably Nicole-or Mark must have called Nicole and said, you know, "Oh, guess who I saw? Cora was here with her family." So that's why I thought of Mark.

# 246 Q:

And so you thought of Mark because he may have been having a relationship with Nicole?

# 247 A:

Yes.

# 248 Q:

And you thought of Ron Goldman for the same reason?

# 249 A:

For the same reason, yes. Yes.

# 250 Q:

That he was having a relationship with Nicole?

# 251 A:

That Ron was interested in Nicole, was attracted to Nicole.

# 252 Q:

And I take it the reason why you drew an association between these two individuals, Ron and the person at Toscana, was because you assumed that it was Mr. Simpson acting on some jealousy.

# 253 Q:

Is that a fair statement?

# 254 A:

Acting on jealousy?

# 255 Q:

Yes.

# 256 A:

Yes.

# 257 Q:

I mean, you assumed that he probably came upon Nicole with a male suitor and then killed him Is that what you were assuming at the time?

# 258 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 259 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 260 MR. PETROCELLI:

John, you were supposed to be covering for him.

# 261 MR. KELLY:

The mike wouldn't reach.

# 262 MR. BREWER:

Got to cover my back there, Kelly.

# 263 MR. BAKER:

I'm sorry.

# 264

BY MR. BREWER:

# 265 Q:

Okay. Apart from learning that there was another victim involved what other information did you hear on the 13th with respect to either information that tended to implicate Mr. Simpson or just general evidence that was being discussed in the media?

# 266 A:

Well, it was basically the evidence coming out of the media.

# 267 Q:

Well, like what do you remember hearing? What type of evidence?

# 268 A:

They said, oh, they saw blood on the driveway and they saw the gloves. That's pretty much, you know...

# 269 Q:

Blood in Mr. Simpson's driveway?

# 270 A:

Yeah.

# 271 Q:

Do you remember hearing about that?

# 272 A:

They said there were three- there was blood on the driveway- that was the first one that said, "Oh, they found blood on the driveway."

# 273 Q:

Okay. So you heard the first day that they had found-

# 274 A:

First, second day. No, not the first day. I don't think I even listened. I was-all I know is everything was a daze, and it was just-it was... Oh, I'm sorry.

# 275 Q:

Let me just ask a question: Would it be fair to say that rather than pinpoint it to Monday or Tuesday, that within the first couple days you were hearing information through the media that related to evidence that was being developed for Mr. Simpson's possible implication in these murders?

Is that a fair statement?

# 276 A:

Yes.

# 277 Q:

One of the things you heard about was the fact that blood was found on the Rockingham driveway.

Right?

# 278 A:

Right.

# 279 Q:

Did you also hear that there was a glove found on his property?

# 280 A:

Right.

# 281 Q:

Did you also hear that blood was found at Bundy?

# 282 A:

Yes.

# 283 Q:

Did you also hear that the blood that was found at Bundy was identified as blood belonging to OJ. Simpson?

# 284 A:

Yes.

# 285 Q:

Now, when you began to hear this information, did it reaffirm your initial suspicions that Mr. Simpson was responsible for the death of Nicole?

# 286 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 287 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yes, but it was like I was in disbelief, you know. It was like hard to believe, that it can't happen. It can't happen. Because I know these people, you know. It was like-

# 288

BY MR. BREWER:

# 289 Q:

You didn't want to believe it was true?

# 290 A:

Yes. It was like-it was I can't believe it. You know, is this happening? Is this really true? You know.

# 291 Q:

You didn't want to believe that OJ. Simpson could annually kill Nicole. Right?

# 292 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 293 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 294

BY MR. BREWER:

# 295 Q:

Despite not wanting to believe that, you developed an initial suspicion that OJ. Simpson was responsible for the death of Nicole. Is that true?

# 296 A:

True.

# 297 Q:

And all of the information that you began to hear-the blood on his driveway, the glove that was found at Rockingham, the blood that was found at Bundy-that was affirming your initial suspicion that OJ. Simpson was responsible for the death of Nicole.

# 298 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 299

BY MR. BREWER:

# 300 Q:

Is that a fair statement?

# 301 A:

That's true, yeah.

# 302 Q:

Now, during the first couple weeks do you recall hearing any information that, when you thought about learning-when you thought about the information that you heard, you drew a conclusion that it supported an opinion that Mr. Simpson was not responsible, something that was contrary to implicating him as involved in these murders?

# 303 MR. BAKER:

From the med-?

# 304 MR. BREWER:

Yeah. Any source.

# 305 MS. FISCHMAN:

Any source from the media?

# 306

BY MR. BREWER:

# 307 Q:

Sure.

# 308 A:

Well, at the time I thought like, why they not looking for other suspects. You know, why they lead to OJ. at the time. I said, "Nicole at the time was going out a lot with Faye. Why couldn't they look for other possibilities," because they were doing- you know, because Nicole-Faye was doing cocaine. And so I said, could it be drugs, you know, could it be, you know, cocaine, all these things. Yes, I opened my mind to all these possibilities.

# 309 Q:

You didn't want to believe it was OJ. Simpson, so you went looking for other possible explanations. Is-

# 310 A:

Yes.

# 311 Q:

-that true? And you had mentioned in previous testimony that the lifestyle that Nicole was leading was a dangerous lifestyle. Is that true?

# 312 A:

Pretty much, yeah. The last weeks, yes.

# 313 Q:

When you say a dangerous lifestyle," are you talking about danger from the standpoint of her own physical safety?

# 314 A:

No. Dangerous because she was going out a lot with Faye and doing this soliciting, doing threesome and soliciting men, and I thought that that was-to me that was a dangerous lifestyle. That's how I-

# 315 Q:

Well, when you say "dangerous," are you talking about dangerous because she may develop AIDS or some illness-

# 316 A:

Yes, yes-

# 317 Q:

-or are you-excuse me- talking about danger became somebody may come home and kill her? What kind of danger are you talking about?

# 318 A:

Pretty much everything dangerous that-she actually was afraid of AIDS, too, you know. Health likewise. Dangerous lifestyle. It's-that's how you call it: Dangerous lifestyle.

# 319 Q:

Well-

# 320 A:

I don't mean physically-it could be physical, too, because somebody-a lot of the guys that they've been going out, to me they could harm her, because she's a very attractive woman.

# 321 Q:

Okay. But when you have used the term a "dangerous lifestyle" during the course of this deposition, in your mind what you're thinking about principally is developing AIDS or some other virus or illness as a result of this type of lifestyle?

# 322 A:

It's-not just that. It's just a lifestyle. It's kind of like she was playing with fire. She was going out, soliciting men and, you know, going out with Faye to different clubs and stuff like that.

# 323 Q:

Did she ever tell you that she was afraid of any of the men that she had dated?

# 324 A:

No.

# 325 Q:

Did she ever tell you that anyone that she had dated threatened her?

# 326 A:

No.

# 327 Q:

Did she ever tell you that any of the men she dated stalked her?

# 328 A:

No.

# 329 Q:

Did she ever tell you that any of the men that she dated made threatening phone calls to her?

# 330 A:

No.

# 331 Q:

Now, at some point, as you indicated in earlier testimony, you came to the conclusion that

Mr. Simpson is innocent. Do you recall that testimony?

# 332 A:

Yes.

# 333 Q:

When did you first come to that conclusion in your mind where you firmly believed that he was innocent?

# 334 A:

When all the evidences were not matching up, and also when the verdict came out, as you say, you know, I always said that let the justice-I believe in the justice system, and we'll believe it like that. You know, I figured that's what happened. I mean, he was found innocent, he's innocent.

# 335 Q:

Was that when you determined that he was innocent: When the verdict came out?

# 336 A:

No, when all the-I just-I doubted about the gloves. The socks is just the one that made me wonder. There were no blood around the socks, and the carpet, his carpet leading to his bedroom is white. How come there were no blood stains leading to his bedroom.

# 337 Q:

When was the first time in your mind you came to the conclusion Mr. Simpson was innocent?

# 338 A:

When this whole trial was going on.

# 339 Q:

When?

# 340 A:

I'm sorry. What?

# 341 Q:

The trial was a year long. What I am trying to figure out, at some point did you come to a conclusion in your mind that Mr. Simpson was innocent?

# 342 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 343 MS. FISCHMAN:

When he was innocent? When all those gloves and- you know, annually it started when they talked about Mark Fuhrman and- you know, whatever, that time frame. That's when I said, my God, you know, there's no way he could have done this.

# 344

BY MR. BREWER:

# 345 Q:

Okay. So you drew some association between the discussions about Mark Fuhrman as to when you determined that Mr. Simpson was innocent? Is that true?

# 346 A:

No, that's not true. It's around that when they talked about the other evidences, too.

# 347 Q:

The socks?

# 348 A:

Yeah.

# 349 Q:

The glove?

# 350 A:

Right.

# 351 Q:

Okay. And that led you to the conclusion that you've expressed during the course of the deposition that Mr. Simpson is innocent. Right?

# 352 A:

Right.

# 353 Q:

You also testified that you were -you didn't really follow the trial. Is that true?

# 354 A:

I was not allowed to.

# 355 Q:

Okay.

# 356 A:

Because I was on subpoena.

# 357 Q:

So when you were-when were you subpoenaed?

# 358 A:

It was January of '94.

# 359 Q:

So did you watch-

# 360 MR. PETROCELLI:

'95.

# 361 MR. KARMA:

'95, perhaps?

# 362 MS. FISCHMAN:

Oh, I'm sorry. '95.

# 363

BY MR. BREWER:

# 364 Q:

Did you watch any televised coverage of the trial after January of '95?

# 365 A:

I was not interested. Off and on, you know, I would read the news, but not really-I didn't watch it every day, no.

# 366 Q:

Well, did you watch any of the televised coverage at all after you were subpoenaed in January of 1995?

# 367 A:

Watch at all?

# 368 Q:

Yes.

# 369 A:

How can you? I mean, every channel was-yes, I would say yes.

# 370 Q:

Okay. Well, they told you not to, didn't they?

# 371 A:

Yes.

# 372 Q:

Okay. Did you continue to watch periodic coverage of the trial?

# 373 A:

No, I didn't watch periodically, no.

# 374 Q:

Did you watch at all?

# 375 A:

How can you miss it? I mean, it's every day. It's every channel. And you talk about it. Yeah, I mean I saw a few, yeah, but didn't sit there for three hours watching it, no.

# 376 Q:

Well, it was important to you to watch the trial because you were hoping it would help answer the question as to who killed Nicole, your best friend. Right?

# 377 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 378 MS. FISCHMAN:

See, at the time I wasn't really interested in the trial because I couldn't stand watching it and-to me it was boring, anyway. It was boring. Got to be too long, so...

# 379

BY MR. BREWER:

# 380 Q:

Well, did you resist watching the trial because you were afraid of some of the information that you might hear?

# 381 A:

No. Partly because I was on subpoena, I'm not supposed to watch it. So that's also part of the reason why I wasn't watching it.

# 382 Q:

Did Mr.-

# 383 A:

So I don't know what time I was going to be called, and, you know, I wasn't supposed to watch it, so...

# 384 Q:

Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Simpson's attorneys about whether you should watch the trial or not watch the trial?

# 385 A:

No, they never told me that.

# 386 Q:

When you first spoke with Mr. Simpson, that was by telephone after his arrest, correct, when he was incarcerated?

# 387 A:

Yes.

# 388 Q:

And you spoke with him at the wake, correct, which has already been described?

# 389 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 390 Q:

Was that the sum total of your conversation: Pounding on his chest and then making the comment that you made?

# 391 A:

That was-yeah, that was pretty much, yes.

# 392 Q:

Did you speak with him at the funeral?

# 393 A:

No. I must have gone and, you know, said hello, but not-not-no major conversation.

# 394 Q:

While you were at the wake, were there conversations between you and Nicole's friends about Mr. Simpson's possible involvement in the murder?

# 395 A:

At the time we couldn't talk because we were all shocked, so we were-no.

# 396 Q:

Were you talking about it among yourselves quietly, whispering that- you know, what had happened, what type of information had been disseminated through the media?

# 397 A:

I don't think we were talking like that.

# 398 Q:

Did you ever overhear any conversations between Mr. Simpson and anyone else at the wake with respect to whether he was involved in this murder?

# 399 A:

I ever heard?

# 400 Q:

Did you overhear any conversations between Mr. Simpson and anyone else with respect to whether he was involved in the murder?

# 401 A:

No.

# 402 Q:

At the funeral did you overhear any conversations between Mr. Simpson and anyone else wherein there was a discussion concerning the facts and circumstances of the murders?

# 403 A:

No.

# 404 Q:

Did you talk with anyone at the funeral with respect to whether Mr. Simpson was possibly the person who killed Nicole?

# 405 A:

Did I talk to anyone?

# 406 Q:

At the funeral, yes.

# 407 A:

Did I talk at the funeral with anyone. Yeah, I talked to-I talked to a lot of people. I mean, I talked to Faye in the car-

# 408 Q:

Did you talk about-well, let's take Faye. Did you and Faye talk about OJ. Simpson possibly being the person who killed Nicole?

# 409 A:

No. When we were in the car, we talked about-about-actually about Ron. I said, you know, "You were giggling." Who was?" She asked me if I spoke to Nicole that evening. I said no.

And I asked her if she did, and she said, "Yes, we spoke around 9:30,. and I told you that they were giggling and stuff like that, yeah.

# 410 Q:

Did you have any discussions with Faye that were specific to whether OJ. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 411 A:

Must have, yes, yes.

# 412 Q:

You must have?

# 413 A:

Probably, because I'm not sure. I mean, it was like that time we were all grieving. We were all shocked. We didn't know. So I would say yes, we talked about who did it.

# 414 Q:

Okay. When you say "we," who is "we"?

# 415 A:

Who did it? Well, you know, we talked with the Browns, with Kris- you know, the Jenners were there, [Name Deleted], you know.

# 416 Q:

Okay. When you say "they" were there, were you all in this limousine having this discussion?

# 417 A:

Yeah. Not the Browns, but I mean in the limousine, yes.

# 418 Q:

So was there some generalized discussion in the limousine ride with respect to whether Mr. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 419 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 420 MS. FISCHMAN:

No, we didn't really talk that much. We really-we just

# 421

BY MR. BREWER:

# 422 Q:

My question is whether there was any, not whether you talked about it a lot or a little. Was there any discussion in the limousine ride-

# 423 A:

Yes.

# 424 Q:

-with respect to whether OJ. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 425 A:

Yes.

# 426 Q:

And who was discussing that?

# 427 A:

Who?

# 428 Q:

Yes.

# 429 A:

Everyone.

# 430 Q:

Well, what did Christian Reichardt say about it?

# 431 MR. BAKER:

Was he in the car?

# 432 MR. BREWER:

I don't know. She said "everyone."

# 433 Q:

Was he in the car?

# 434 MR. PETROCELLI:

She said he was in the car.

# 435 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yes, he was in the car.

# 436

BY MR. BREWER:

# 437 Q:

What did Christian Reichardt say?

# 438 A:

Christian said that-actually, you know what? They were all-we were quiet. We were not talking there.

# 439 Q:

Ma'am, you just said that there was some discussion-

# 440 A:

I'm getting confused here.

# 441 Q:

Okay. Well, let's just refocus on my question. You are in a limousine ride-

# 442 A:

Let me tell you what happened, then.

# 443 MR. KARMA:

Is that all right?

# 444

BY MR. BREWER:

# 445 Q:

Yeah, tell me what happened.

# 446 MR. KRAMER:

Go ahead.

# 447 MS. FISCHMAN:

Well, at the time we were all crying; we were shocked. Christian and Faye were not talking okay, so we were talking about her- the intervention more. I said, "What happened?" And to me that was- and then we said, "Do you think he might have killed"-yeah, we talked about-yeah, sure we did.

# 448

BY MR. BREWER:

# 449 Q:

Okay. Well, that's what I want to focus on.

# 450 A:

Yeah, but nobody answered yes or no. It was an open question because of what the media was feeding us, yes.

# 451 Q:

Who raised the question? Who was the first one in that limousine that said, "Do you think OJ. could have done it?"

# 452 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 453

BY MR. BREWER:

# 454 Q:

I mean, who started the conversation?

# 455 A:

I don't know.

# 456 Q:

Did you?

# 457 A:

No, I don't know. I don't think so.

# 458 Q:

Okay. Did you say anything when that question was thrown out for discussion?

# 459 A:

We were just- we were shocked, so I don't remember. It was-we were all shocked.

# 460 Q:

Well, do you recall anyone in the limousine who said, "I think OJ. did it"?

# 461 A:

No, no one said that.

# 462 Q:

Do you recall anyone who said, "I think OJ. did it"?

# 463 A:

No, no one said that.

# 464 Q:

Do you recall anyone who said, "OJ did not do it"?

# 465 A:

No, no one said that.

# 466 Q:

What was the general tenor of the discussion when somebody said, "Do you think OJ. did it." Were people saying he did or he didn't or discussing the evidence? What exactly was being said?

# 467 MR. BAKER:

Speculation and leading a la Petrocelli.

# 468 MS. FISCHMAN:

We were all quiet. We were shocked. So we were saying, "Do you think OJ. did it?" And that was it. It was like a question, a big question in our mind. But we didn't draw a conclusion. We were just like in disbelief.

# 469

BY MR. BREWER:

# 470 Q:

Okay. That's the best you can do relating to us what discussion there was in the limousine relative to whether Mr. Simpson was responsible for the murder?

# 471 A:

Yes.

# 472 Q:

How about at the funeral itself? Were there any further discussions between you and anyone else with respect to Mr. Simpson's possible involvement?

# 473 A:

At the funeral? Actually, I told Kato, I said, you know, "They called me. You're the other suspect here," and we kinda kid around, "and I told the media there was no way you were gonna be a suspect. You don't even"-you know, "you can't even hurt a fly." So that was one of our conversation, yeah.

# 474 Q:

Okay. And you were relating to Kato a conversation that you had had with the police where they asked you questions about Kato?

# 475 A:

Yes.

# 476 Q:

And you knew right away that Kato couldn't possibly be a suspect. Right?

# 477 A:

There was no way. No way.

# 478 Q:

And so in your mind you ruled out immediately Kato Kaelin as a suspect because of what you knew about Kato.

# 479 A:

Yes.

# 480 Q:

That he wasn't violent?

# 481 A:

Kato?

# 482 Q:

Yes. He was not violent.

# 483 A:

He was not violent, yes.

# 484 Q:

He had never had any violent episodes with Nicole. Right?

# 485 A:

Yes.

# 486 Q:

As far as you knew, Nicole wasn't afraid of Kato, was she?

# 487 A:

No, Nicole was not afraid of Kato.

# 488 Q:

Do you recall any other discussions, other than this conversation with Kato, while you were at the funeral with respect to whether Mr. Simpson was responsible for Nicole's death?

# 489 A:

It was also Judy told me, you know.

# 490 Q:

What did Judy say?

# 491 A:

Judy said, "Cora," you know, something like, "do you think he did it?" you know.

# 492 Q:

What did you say?

# 493 A:

I said, "I don't know. I don't know."

# 494 Q:

And that was the sum total-

# 495 A:

Yeah.

# 496 Q:

-of that conversation?

# 497 A:

Right.

# 498 Q:

Did you have any other conversations with anyone else other than Kato end Judy at the funeral with respect to whether Mr. Simpson was responsible for these murders?

# 499 A:

We were all quiet. I mean, we were mourning. We were mourning. I mean, you know, we were skill shocked and confused, so-we didn't draw any conclusion. Everything was a big question mark to us.

# 500 Q:

Now, those are the only two times during the week of the 13th that you actually saw Mr. Simpson. Is that true ? At the wake and at the funeral.

# 501 A:

Yes.

# 502 Q:

I think you had mentioned actually another occasion: Where you saw him with Mr. Kardashian. Is that true?

# 503 A:

Oh, yes, yes.

# 504 Q:

Okay. So those are the only three occasions where you physically saw Mr. Simpson during the week of the 13th?

# 505 A:

Yes.

# 506 Q:

And I take it you watched the chase on the 17th?

# 507 A:

Yes.

# 508 Q:

Okay. And did you draw a conclusion that Mr. Simpson was going to commit suicide?

# 509 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 510 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 511

BY MR. BREWER:

# 512 Q:

And how did you factor in that information, if you did at all, with respect to our belief that Mr. Simpson may or may not be responsible for the death of Nicole?

# 513 MR. BAKER:

Vague.

# 514 MS. FISCHMAN:

How?

# 515

BY MR. BREWER:

# 516 Q:

Yeah.

# 517 A:

At the time when I sew the chase, I was in disbelief. I said, "What's going on now? What is he doing now?" So I only-all I thought was the kids. I said, "I can't believe what will happen to Sydney and Justin."

# 518 Q:

The next time that you spoke with Mr. Simpson or saw him was when he telephoned you from jail. Is that correct?

# 519 A:

Right.

# 520 Q:

And that was after Faye Resnick had published her book. Is that correct?

# 521 A:

Barbara Walters. After Barbara Walters.

# 522 Q:

After you did the Barbara Walters?

# 523 A:

Yes.

# 524 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson indicate to you that he saw that on TV?

# 525 A:

No, he didn't see it on TV. He got a call from a friend. He spoke to a friend and-from New York, I think, and that his friend said that "Cora Fischman spoke, and by far you could tell that she was the only real friend of Nicole among the three who spoke."

# 526 Q:

So it was your understanding that the call was instigated- Mr. Simpson's call was instigated because he received a call from a friend in New York who told him that you had been on Barbara Walters.

# 527 A:

Exactly.

# 528 Q:

And that's what Mr. Simpson told you.

# 529 A:

Yes.

# 530 Q:

And did he ask you questions at that time about conversations you had had with Nicole in the past concerning OJ. Simpson?

# 531 A:

Oh, yeah. I mean, we were both crying. That was the first time I spoke to him. We were crying, and basically we were-he was asking me, "What happened here? What happened?" you know, and we were just-we were both crying, trying to relive Nicole.

I actually even told him, I said, "Why are you doing this to me? Why are we reliving Nicole?" so...

# 532 Q:

Did he ask you about prior incidents where Nicole told you-I'm sorry. Strike that.

Did he ask you about conversations you and Nicole had had where Nicole related to you incidents where Mr. Simpson had beat her? Did he ask you questions about that?

# 533 A:

If Nicole?

# 534 Q:

Told you.

# 535 MR. BAKER:

He is asking if OJ. told you about what-

# 536 MS. FISCHMAN:

OJ. never told me anything.

# 537 MR. BREWER:

Don't let him reask my questions.

# 538 MR. BAKER:

I get lost in these triple hearsays.

# 539 MS. FISCHMAN:

I mean, it's-

# 540

BY MR. BREWER:

# 541 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson ask you questions about the communications you and Nicole had concerning beatings in the relationship?

# 542 A:

No.

# 543 Q:

Did he ask you questions whether Nicole had told you about the '89 incident?

# 544 A:

Did who again?

# 545 Q:

Did OJ. Simpson ask you whether Nicole had told you about the '89 incident?

# 546 A:

Yes.

# 547 Q:

And that was during this phone call?

# 548 A:

Oh, no, not on the phone call.

# 549 Q:

That's what I am talking about, the phone call-

# 550 A:

Oh, the phone call?

# 551 Q:

What I am trying to find out is what he asked you about in the phone call.

# 552 A:

Oh, I don't know about the phone call. I mean, it was like-not that, no.

# 553 Q:

How long was the phone call?

# 554 A:

I don't know. I don't remember. Ten minutes?

# 555 Q:

Ten minutes?

# 556 A:

Five minutes? It was not a long conversation. He just thanked me for being a friend of Nicole's "And by far you're Nicole's only friend."

# 557 Q:

Did he ever say he didn't commit the murder?

# 558 A:

Yeah, he said that.

# 559 Q:

Okay. Did you ask him at that time about some of the evidence that was

# 560 A:

No.

# 561 Q:

-had a tendency to implicate him.'

# 562 A:

No.

# 563 Q:

Didn't you want to know?

# 564 A:

Actually I said to him-I was blaming. I said, you know, "I told you, why didn't you go to Florida?. You know, I was kind of blaming him. I said, "Why didn't you go to Florida? Why didn't you go? You could have moved," you know, so that's what happened.

# 565 Q:

What's the implication of that statement, "Why didn't you go to Florida?"

# 566 A:

Well, to me I thought that if they started a new life in a different state, then probably Nicole would have still been married to OJ.

# 567 Q:

When OJ. Simpson called you on the telephone from jail, that very first call, you believed he killed Nicole didn't you?

# 568 MR. BAKER:

Leading. Argumentative.

# 569 MS. FISCHMAN:

Did I believe?

# 570

BY MR. BREWER:

# 571 Q:

Yes. In your mind you believed that OJ. Simpson had killed Nicole when he first called you.

# 572 A:

I thought about it, yes.

# 573 Q:

Okay. And during that discussion he told you he did not kill her. Is that right?

# 574 A:

Yes.

# 575 Q:

Did you ask him any question at all about any of the evidence that you had learned about or his explanation?

# 576 MR. BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 577 MS. FISCHMAN:

Did I ask any questions about the evidence? No.

# 578

BY MR. BREWER:

# 579 Q:

Yeah. For example, how did blood get at Rockingham? Did you ask him about that?

# 580 A:

No.

# 581 Q:

Did you ask him about the blood at Bundy?

# 582 A:

No.

# 583 Q:

Did you ask him about the glove that was at Rockingham?

# 584 A:

No.

# 585 Q:

Did you ask him how blood got in his Bronco?

# 586 A:

No.

# 587 Q:

Did you have any interest in learning any of that information?

# 588 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative. Asked and answered.

# 589 MS. FISCHMAN:

At the time I was- I didn't ask him, yeah. Probably I was in disbelief, so...

# 590

BY MR. BREWER:

# 591 Q:

Well, this was a person who hopefully could answer these questions for you and had firsthand knowledge of this. Right?

# 592 A:

Yes.

# 593 Q:

Is there any reason-Were you afraid of the answers?

# 594 A:

If I was afraid of the answers?

# 595 Q:

Yeah.

# 596 A:

I was-I'm not afraid of the answers.

# 597 Q:

Were you afraid that he may tell you "Yeah, I did it"?

# 598 A:

Actually I wanted to know if he did it, yeah.

# 599 Q:

Why didn't you ask him.,

# 600 A:

You want me to ask him.' I didn't ask him. No, I didn't. I didn't ask him.

# 601 Q:

I guess what we are all wondering is: You're Nicole's best friend. Why haven't you ever asked him point- blank if he did it or ask him for his explanation with respect to some of this evidence?

# 602 A:

Actually he asked me, he said, "Cora, do you think I'm capable of killing Nicole?"

I said-and I said, "Only you can answer that, OJ. "And I says, "Well, you know, do you think you were framed?"

Yes, we did talk about that.

# 603 Q:

Okay. And when he asked you that question, whether you thought he was capable of killing Nicole, one of the things that you didn't say was no. Right?

# 604 A:

Yes.

# 605 Q:

Because you did think he was capable, didn't you?

# 606 A:

What?

# 607 Q:

You did think he was capable.

# 608 A:

Everybody's capable, yes.

# 609 Q:

particularly someone who had a history of violence with his wife. Right?

# 610 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 611 MS. FISCHMAN:

See, I didn't know that OJ. was a violent person. I didn't know that.

# 612

BY MR. BREWER:

# 613 Q:

You didn't know that?

# 614 A:

No.

# 615 Q:

So-

# 616 A:

I knew that he had a violent temper. You know, when he screams, he gets mad. He has a temper.

# 617 Q:

You knew that firsthand.

# 618 A:

Nicole told me.

# 619 Q:

Well, you knew that from your own personal observations, too, didn't you?

# 620 A:

I never saw him like that.

# 621 Q:

Well, Nicole told you that he had beaten her in 1989. Right?

# 622 A:

Yes, because they were all drunk at that party, yes.

# 623 Q:

Did you think that their being drunk excused Mr. Simpson from beating his wife?

# 624 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 625 MS. FISCHMAN:

No, it's not an excuse, no.

# 626

BY MR. BREWER:

# 627 Q:

Well-

# 628 A:

I mean-

# 629 Q:

Go ahead.

# 630 A:

Well, no.

# 631 Q:

So you knew at the time that you spoke to Mr. Simpson that he had inflicted-he had had a violent encounter with his wife. Right?

# 632 A:

Yes.

# 633 Q:

And you knew he had a bad temper. Right?

# 634 A:

Yes.

# 635 Q:

You knew Nicole was afraid of him.

# 636 A:

Yes.

# 637 Q:

You knew Nicole was concerned about her safety not because she was going out at night, but because she was afraid of OJ. Simpson. You knew that.

# 638 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 639

BY MR. BREWER:

# 640 Q:

Right?

# 641 A:

She was going out with who?

# 642 Q:

You knew she was afraid of her safety not because of the fact she was going out at night with Faye Resnick, but because of OJ. Simpson. That was the fear that she had.

# 643 A:

Yes.

# 644 Q:

And based upon all that information, you knew that Mr. Simpson had it within his ability to kill Nicole.

# 645 A:

Yes.

# 646 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 647

BY MR. BREWER:

# 648 Q:

Has Mr. Simpson ever told you he was framed?

# 649 A:

What?

# 650 Q:

Has Mr. Simpson ever told you he was framed?

# 651 A:

No.

# 652 Q:

Has he ever offered any explanation for any of the evidence in this case to you, ever?

# 653 MR. BAKER:

Vague.

# 654 MS. FISCHMAN:

Explained? No.

# 655

BY MR. BREWER:

# 656 Q:

Have you ever had any discussions with Robert Kardashian in connection with this case?

# 657 A:

Robert Kardashian?

# 658 Q:

Yes.

# 659 A:

No.

# 660 Q:

Have you ever had any discussions with Al Cowlings?

# 661 A:

Al Cowlings?

# 662 Q:

Yes.

# 663 A:

Yes.

# 664 Q:

When did you first have any discussion? Let's talk about after June 13th, have you had any discussions with Al Cowlings?

# 665 A:

We went for a walk one time down San Vicente.

# 666 Q:

When was that?

# 667 A:

When?

# 668 Q:

Yes.

# 669 A:

Oh, God, around July-no- June, later part of June.

# 670 Q:

Okay. In the month of the murders?

# 671 A:

Yes.

# 672 Q:

And how did that come about, that you were taking a walk with Al Cowlings?

# 673 A:

Well, we were frying to commiserate, trying to understand what really happened.

# 674 Q:

When you say "what really happened," are you talking about who killed Nicole?

# 675 A:

Yes.

# 676 Q:

And did you ask-did you have a discussion with Mr. Cowlings about Mr. Simpson possibly killing Nicole?

# 677 A:

Yeah. He said-at first he said- at first he thought that OJ. did it.

# 678 Q:

And Mr. Cowlings-

# 679 A:

That was the first thing that entered his mind.

# 680 Q:

So Mr. Cowlings told you that when he first learned of the murders, he concluded that OJ. Simpson killed Nicole?

# 681 A:

Yes.

# 682 Q:

And did Mr. Cowlings tell you that Mr. Simpson had said anything to him that confirmed that initial suspicion?

# 683 A:

No. 1

# 684 Q:

Did you have any discussions with Mr. Cowlings with respect to the infamous slow-speed chase on June 17th?

# 685 A:

No.

# 686 Q:

Did Mr. Cowlings relate to you anything at all that Mr. Simpson said to him during the week of the 13th?

# 687 A:

No.

# 688 Q:

Did Mr. Cowlings indicate to you that he had changed his view from his initial suspicion that Mr. Simpson was involved in these murders?

# 689 A:

Yes.

# 690 Q:

And what did he tell you?

# 691 A:

He said, "By talking to OJ.," he said, "there was no way he could have done it."

# 692 Q:

And did he tell you that OJ. had explained, for example, his whereabouts at the time of the murders?

# 693 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 694 MS. FISCHMAN:

I don't know. I'm- yeah, I guess. I don't know.

# 695

BY MR. BREWER:

# 696 Q:

Well, did he tell you?

# 697 A:

Did he tell me?

# 698 Q:

Yes.

# 699 A:

No.

# 700 Q:

For example, did he say, "OJ. couldn't have done it because he was in Chicago" or "he was at a party," or something else?

# 701 A:

No, he didn't explain. He didn't say that.

# 702 Q:

Was there any discussion between you and Mr. Cowlings with respect to Simpson's explanation regarding certain evidence in the case?

# 703 A:

No.

# 704 Q:

So other than Al Cowlings' statement that after talking with OJ. he -"I don't think he could have done it," did he tell you any of the particulars that were related to Mr. Cowlings by Mr. Simpson that supported Cowlings' belief?

# 705 A:

No.

# 706 Q:

Was that the only conversation you ever had with Al Cowlings?

# 707 A:

Yes.

# 708 Q:

How long did that conversation take place?

# 709 A:

I'd say 15 minutes.

# 710 Q:

And was that kind of a walk that you took just to kind of commiserate?

# 711 A:

Yes. 3

# 712 Q:

And during the course of that walk, this topic came up as to whether Mr. Simpson could have killed Nicole. Correct'

# 713 A:

Well, I asked him, you know. I mean, I wanted answers, so...

# 714 Q:

So you asked-

# 715 A:

And then we talked about the friends, you know, what happened, and the kids. That's pretty much- where were the kids that day. So he told me that Arnelle took the kids and stuff like that.

# 716 Q:

Did Mr. Cowlings tell you anything about discussions he had with OJ. Simpson concerning the kids, taking care of the kids or providing for the kids?

# 717 A:

Did who? Did OJ.-I mean if A.C told me?

# 718 Q:

Yeah.

# 719 A:

I don't remember. No, I don't remember.

# 720 Q:

Have you ever had any conversations with Skip Taft?

# 721 A:

Skip?

# 722 Q:

Yes.

# 723 A:

I don't even know him.

# 724 Q:

Cathy Randa?

# 725 A:

I met Cathy two weeks ago.

# 726 Q:

And how did you meet Cathy?

# 727 A:

At OJ.'s house. He said, "This is Cathy."

I said, "Hi." That was the first time I met her.

# 728 Q:

Did you talk about this case at all?

# 729 A:

No.

# 730 Q:

Did you talk about the facts and circumstances of the murders?

# 731 A:

No.

# 732 Q:

Did you have any discussion beyond just an introduction, saying hello?

# 733 A:

That was pretty much my conversation with her.

# 734 Q:

When you met with Mr. Leonard, did he show you photographs?

# 735 A:

No.

# 736 Q:

Did he show you any statements?

# 737 A:

No.

# 738 Q:

And you understood OJ. Simpson was deposed in this case. Right? Did you know that?

# 739 A:

Yes.

# 740 Q:

You know he testified under oath?

# 741 A:

Yes.

# 742 Q:

You know he testified with respect to his alibi or alleged alibi?

# 743 MR. BAKER:

Vague.

# 744 MS. FISCHMAN:

Who?

# 745

BY MR. BREWER:

# 746 Q:

You understand that Mr. Simpson testified with respect to his alleged alibi at the time of the murders?

# 747 A:

With his alleged alibi?

# 748 Q:

Yeah. Where he was at the time of the murders. Did you know that he provided an explanation under oath?

# 749 A:

I didn't know. I didn't know that.

# 750 Q:

You didn't hear that?

# 751 A:

No.

# 752 Q:

Did you know he testified with respect to the origin of the cut on his finger? Did you hear about that?

# 753 A:

I thought that he had a cut from -in Chicago.

# 754 MR. KRAMER:

That's not- the question is: Are you aware whether or not Mr. Simpson testified of his version under oath about where he got the cut, in his deposition in this case? Is that the question?

# 755 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 756

BY MR. BREWER:

# 757 Q:

Do you know that?

# 758 A:

I didn't know that.

# 759 Q:

Did you hear anything that Mr. Simpson testified about from news accounts in connection with his deposition?

# 760 A:

No.

# 761 Q:

Have you ever-Do you read the newspaper on a daily basis?

# 762 A:

No.

# 763 Q:

Did you have any interest in finding out Mr. Simpson's explanation with respect to his alibi?

# 764 A:

I was just tired of it. No.

# 765 Q:

You didn't want anything to do with it?

# 766 A:

I just want to move on with my life. That's pretty much what I want.

# 767 Q:

As you sit here today, you have no interest in frying to determine who's responsible for Nicole's death?

# 768 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 769 MS. FISCHMAN:

It's not that interest. I mean, it would be nice to find the real killers, but I have a life with three kids, and I think my family has suffered and my kids have suffered enough. I think it's time to move on. That's all. I figure Nicole's been taken care of, okay, that's fine.

# 770

BY MR. BREWER:

# 771 Q:

That what?

# 772 A:

Nicole is up there already, so that's how I see things. All I want to do now is take care of the kids, and I will take care of Sydney and Justin if they went me to. That's all.

# 773 Q:

It doesn't really matter to you if OJ. Simpson murdered Nicole or not, does it?

# 774 A:

Of course it matters to me. I wish if you could prove it, that's fine.

# 775 Q:

Well, you are not really interested in the proof.

# 776 A:

You know what? It's not that. My kids are suffering already, and Sydney and Justin are suffering. They're- everybody's suffering from the whole thing.

# 777 Q:

But the question-

# 778 A:

They have lost their mom already. Okay?

# 779 Q:

And does it matter to you why they lost their mom or who's responsible for the loss of their mother? Is that an important question?

# 780 MR. BAKER:

Asked and answered 12 times.

# 781 MS. FISCHMAN:

Does it matter?

# 782 MR. BAKER:

And harassing now.

# 783

BY MR. BREWER:

# 784 Q:

Yes.

# 785 A:

Of course it matters to me.

# 786 Q:

And would it matter to you if OJ. Simpson is the person that caused these children to be without their mother?

# 787 MR. BAKER:

Same objection.

# 788 MS. FISCHMAN:

If it matters to me?

# 789

BY MR. BREWER:

# 790 Q:

Yes.

# 791 A:

Yes, of course it matters.

# 792 Q:

And would it matter to you in terms of the safety of your own children, leaving them with someone that you believe may have murdered Nicole Brown Simpson?

# 793 A:

Of course it matters to me.

# 794 Q:

In that regard, have you undertaken any further investigation in the last two or three months to determine to your satisfaction whether Mr. Simpson is the person that's responsible for Nicole's death?

# 795 A:

Me?

# 796 Q:

Yes.

# 797 A:

Getting an investigator for this?

# 798 Q:

No, no. Just-

# 799 A:

Or trying to investigate it?

# 800 Q:

Reading a newspaper, following his deposition testimony, asking him questions, things of that nature.

# 801 A:

No. I'm just not interested because I was just tired of it. I want to move on.

# 802 Q:

By the way, when did you hear that OJ. Simpson cut his finger in Chicago?

# 803 A:

Through the news. The news. You know, I heard it over the news. So it was the following day or-I don't know. During that week.

# 804 Q:

Did you notice that week whether his finger was bandaged either at the wake or the funeral?

# 805 A:

Oh, I noticed at the funeral.

# 806 Q:

Did you ask him about it?

# 807 A:

No, I didn't talk to him about it.

# 808 MR. BREWER:

I don't have anything further.

# 809 MR. BAKER:

Take a quick break.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 4:42.

# 810 (Recess.)

# 811

EXAMINATION

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Cora Fischman

OJ. has a very, very strong voice, you know, and it's a scary voice.

Fischman relaying Nicole's own words about fearing OJ's voice — attributed directly to Nicole, establishing that Nicole verbalized physical fear to her closest friend.

Cora Fischman

He asked me, 'Cora, do you think I'm capable of killing Nicole?' I said — 'Only you can answer that, OJ.'

Devastating admission: when given the direct opportunity to tell OJ he was incapable of killing Nicole, she refused. Brewer follows by confirming she didn't say 'no' because she did think him capable.

Cora Fischman

He said, 'By talking to OJ.,' he said, 'there was no way he could have done it.'

Fischman recounting AC Cowlings' account — but notably, Cowlings initially believed OJ did it, and only changed his mind after talking to OJ directly, with no specifics offered.

Cora Fischman

I told him, I said, 'Why are you doing this to me? Why are we reliving Nicole?' ... I said, 'Why didn't you go to Florida? Why didn't you go? You could have moved.'

Fischman's reaction during OJ's jail call reveals she was blaming him for the situation — implicitly treating him as the cause of Nicole's death even while not explicitly accusing him.

Robert Baker

That's a worthy 'Could you be more vague' objection.

Baker's sardonic objection to a confusing question, leading to a rare moment of levity when Brewer retorted he thought it was copyrighted and Petrocelli quipped 'Like father, like son.'

Evidence (6)

Informal

Blood found on the Rockingham driveway

discussed as media-reported evidence that reaffirmed Fischman's initial suspicion of OJ

Informal

Glove found at Rockingham property

discussed; Fischman says she doubted the glove evidence during the trial

Informal

Blood found at Bundy identified as OJ Simpson's

discussed as media-reported evidence implicating OJ

Informal

The socks — no blood found on surrounding white carpet leading to OJ's bedroom

cited by Fischman as the key piece of evidence that made her doubt OJ's guilt

Informal

1989 domestic violence incident in which OJ beat Nicole

confirmed by Fischman through multiple leading questions; she noted 'they were all drunk at that party'

Informal

Blood in OJ's Bronco

raised by Brewer as a question Fischman never asked OJ about during his jail call

Notable Exchanges (5)

Michael Brewer•Cora Fischman

Brewer establishes that when OJ called from jail and asked Fischman 'Do you think I'm capable of killing Nicole?', she responded 'Only you can answer that, OJ.' — declining to exonerate him. Brewer then confirms she believed he was capable, particularly given the history of violence.

devastating

Cora Fischman•Michael Brewer

Fischman recounts that AC Cowlings told her his very first thought upon hearing of the murders was that OJ did it — and only changed his view after speaking directly to OJ, without sharing any specific exculpatory information.

revealing

Cora Fischman•Michael Brewer

Fischman initially says the limousine group at the funeral was quiet and not really talking, then contradicts herself and admits they did discuss whether OJ killed Nicole, then walks it back again before finally settling that the question was raised but no one answered yes or no.

strategic

Cora Fischman•Michael Brewer

Fischman describes arriving at the Bundy murder scene in jogging clothes, being questioned by two detectives about OJ's attire and shoes at the recital, and immediately thinking 'he did it' — assuming OJ had been caught.

revealing

Cora Fischman•Michael Brewer

When asked why she never directly asked OJ about the blood, the glove, or the Bronco during his jail call, Fischman has no satisfying answer. Brewer frames it as her being afraid of what she might hear.

strategic

Light Moments (3)

Robert Baker / Michael Brewer / Daniel Petrocelli

Baker objects 'That's a worthy Could you be more vague objection.' Brewer retorts he thought that phrase was copyrighted. Petrocelli says 'Like father, like son.' Baker apologizes.

John Kelly / Michael Brewer

After Petrocelli jokes 'Like father, like son,' Kelly deadpans 'The mike wouldn't reach' — explaining why he couldn't cover for Baker in time. Brewer: 'Got to cover my back there, Kelly.'

Cora Fischman

Fischman recounts telling Kato Kaelin at the funeral that police had named him as a potential suspect, and they 'kinda kid around' about it, with Fischman assuring him there was 'no way' he could be a suspect because 'you can't even hurt a fly.'

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Cora Fischman

prior inconsistent statement / internal contradiction

Brewer gets Fischman to admit she initially believed OJ killed Nicole, drawing on Nicole's stated fears, the 1989 beating, and the media evidence — undermining her current stated belief that he is innocent, which she says was formed when Fuhrman testimony and the socks raised doubts.

⚔ Cora Fischman

impeachment by omission

Brewer presses Fischman on why, during OJ's jail call, she never once asked him about the blood, the glove, the Bronco, or his alibi — despite this being her best opportunity to get answers about who killed her best friend.

⚔ Cora Fischman

contradiction / inconsistency

Fischman first denies watching the trial after being subpoenaed, then admits she watched it when Brewer points out it was unavoidable on every channel — suggesting she was less compliant with the subpoena restriction than she claimed.

⚔ OJ Simpson (indirectly)

third-party admission through witness

Through Fischman, Brewer extracts that AC Cowlings — OJ's closest friend and the driver of the Bronco — initially believed OJ committed the murders, only changing his view after speaking directly to OJ without conveying any specific exculpatory facts.

Witness Demeanor

Frequently confused by compound or complex questions, requiring rephrasing

Contradicts herself on the limousine discussion — first says quiet/mourning, then admits they discussed OJ's guilt

Emotional when recounting hearing of Nicole's death and the jail call with OJ

Occasionally volunteers information beyond the question (the '1989 — they were all drunk' qualifier)

Appears to be managing what she reveals — careful but not deceptive

Gets date wrong (January '94 vs. '95 for subpoena), corrected by Petrocelli

Objections

28 objections (0 sustained, 28 overruled)

Proceeding 9010 • 811 utterances • Plaintiff witness

Deposition Trial

Department 103