Direct examination of Lawrence Fiato

📄 Direct examination of Lawrence Fiato — Tuesday, September 19, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\SEP\19\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-LAWRENCE.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 157 of 167

Witness: Larry Fiato
Examiner: Robert Shapiro
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, September 19, 1995 • Utterances: 332

Larry Fiato, a long-time federal and state mob informant, testifies that LAPD Detective Philip Vannatter told him on two separate occasions — once in a hotel room and once on the 18th-floor smoking deck of the DA's office — that he went to O.J. Simpson's Rockingham home because Simpson was a suspect, not merely to notify him of Nicole's death. The prosecution on cross tries to neutralize the testimony by characterizing both conversations as casual, stress-relieving 'bullshitting' among cops, but Fiato holds firm on redirect that he is certain Vannatter made the statement.

# 1 THE CLERK:

Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

# 2 MR. SHAPIRO:

Are you also known as Larry Fiato?

# 3 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 4 MR. SHAPIRO:

Mr. Fiato, I want to direct your attention to January and February of this year. Were you acquainted with a detective from the Los Angeles Police Department named Philip Vannatter?

# 5 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 6 MR. SHAPIRO:

And how long had you known him as of January of 1995?

# 7 MR. FIATO:

I think it was a period of months. I think I had met him prior. I believe it was--I came out for--I can't remember when. I think it was a period of months. I had met him with his partner, Detective McLean a couple months before that.

# 8 MR. SHAPIRO:

Approximately on how many occasions had you seen him prior to January?

# 9 MR. FIATO:

A handful of times.

# 10 MR. SHAPIRO:

Handful being how many?

# 11 MR. FIATO:

Single--like three, four times maybe.

# 12 MR. SHAPIRO:

And were all those meetings, meetings where you were comfortable with him?

# 13 MR. FIATO:

Yeah.

# 14 MR. SHAPIRO:

And was he comfortable with you?

# 15 MR. FIATO:

I believe so.

# 16 MR. SHAPIRO:

Now, you have been involved as a person who has cooperated with law enforcement for the last twelve years; is that correct?

# 17 MR. FIATO:

Umm--yeah, I will say eleven, eleven.

# 18 MR. SHAPIRO:

Along with your brother?

# 19 MR. FIATO:

That's correct.

# 20 MR. SHAPIRO:

What is his name?

# 21 MR. FIATO:

Craig Anthony Fiato.

# 22 MR. SHAPIRO:

And the two of you in that period of time have testified before numerous grand juries?

# 23 MR. FIATO:

I believe I've testified in front of two.

# 24 MR. SHAPIRO:

Have you testified in front of any juries that sit on a federal court level?

# 25 MR. FIATO:

Once, yes.

# 26 MR. SHAPIRO:

And state level?

# 27 MR. FIATO:

Once, yes.

# 28 MR. SHAPIRO:

And have you offered testimony that has resulted in the apprehension of people?

# 29 MR. KELBERG:

Objection, your Honor, calls for speculation.

# 30 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 31 MR. SHAPIRO:

Has your testimony been accepted as truthful in the federal district court?

# 32 MR. KELBERG:

Same objection.

# 33 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 34 MR. SHAPIRO:

Do you continue to work with government agencies in the--in their efforts and cooperate with them as a witness?

# 35 MR. KELBERG:

Your Honor, I think that is subject to the order.

# 36 THE COURT:

Overruled. You can answer that question.

# 37 MR. FIATO:

Explain "Cooperate." I have nothing--no, I don't, I don't cooperate with them at all any more.

# 38 MR. SHAPIRO:

Do you testify for them?

# 39 MR. FIATO:

For the federal government?

# 40 MR. SHAPIRO:

Yes.

# 41 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 42 MR. SHAPIRO:

What about the state government?

# 43 MR. FIATO:

Umm, there was that one issue, yes.

# 44 MR. SHAPIRO:

Are you still cooperating with the state?

# 45 MR. FIATO:

I don't know.

# 46 MR. SHAPIRO:

Up until yesterday were you still cooperating with the state?

# 47 MR. FIATO:

Umm, the trial--I have a trial to--I am supposed to testify at a trial.

# 48 MR. SHAPIRO:

And that involves a case with--in the state court that is being prosecuted by the Los Angeles District Attorney's office?

# 49 MR. FIATO:

That's correct.

# 50 MR. SHAPIRO:

And you had previously testified in that trial?

# 51 MR. FIATO:

Yes, I have.

# 52 MR. SHAPIRO:

And the detectives in that trial are whom?

# 53 MR. FIATO:

Detective McLean and Detective Lange.

# 54 MR. SHAPIRO:

And have you ever signed any agreement with the federal government to be truthful in your testimony?

# 55 MR. FIATO:

Umm, I've signed agreements with the government. I mean, I really didn't read them, but I'm assuming that, yes, it there is.

# 56 MR. SHAPIRO:

And have you been truthful in your testimony?

# 57 MR. FIATO:

Absolutely.

# 58 MR. SHAPIRO:

In the past? Have you ever wavered in your honesty in testifying before any tribunal whatsoever?

# 59 MR. FIATO:

Have I ever not been honest?

# 60 MR. SHAPIRO:

Not honest?

# 61 MR. FIATO:

No, I have never been not honest.

# 62 MR. SHAPIRO:

Do you recall a conversation you had with Detective Vannatter in January of 1995?

# 63 MR. FIATO:

I don't remember the months, but I had a conversation with him.

# 64 MR. SHAPIRO:

Earlier this year?

# 65 MR. FIATO:

There you go. That is fine, yes.

# 66 MR. SHAPIRO:

And that conversation included what other people?

# 67 MR. FIATO:

Umm, I--myself, my brother, dale Davidson, Detective Lange, Detective Vannatter.

# 68 MR. SHAPIRO:

Dale Davidson is whom?

# 69 MR. FIATO:

He was the prosecuting attorney in the first state case.

# 70 MR. SHAPIRO:

And Detective Vannatter was there for what purpose?

# 71 MR. KELBERG:

Objection. That would call for speculation or hearsay.

# 72 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 73 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you have a cordial relationship with Detective Vannatter during the time this meeting took place?

# 74 MR. FIATO:

Umm, cordial--profession--yeah, cordial, professional, yeah.

# 75 MR. SHAPIRO:

And would you talk to each other during the times that you had met him previously and up until including his conversation in January?

# 76 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 77 MR. SHAPIRO:

And would you talk about his family?

# 78 MR. FIATO:

Yeah. We did, yeah.

# 79 MR. SHAPIRO:

Talk about his farm?

# 80 MR. FIATO:

Yup.

# 81 MR. SHAPIRO:

What other--did you talk about any other personal things with Detective Vannatter?

# 82 MR. FIATO:

How things were going on my job, that kind of stuff.

# 83 MR. SHAPIRO:

And did the conversation ever lead to a discussion of the O.J. Simpson case?

# 84 (No audible response.)

# 85 MR. SHAPIRO:

You can answer that yes or no.

# 86 MR. FIATO:

Umm, yes.

# 87 MR. SHAPIRO:

And this conversation, without telling us where it took place, can you describe the atmosphere where it took place?

# 88 THE COURT:

That is kind of vague.

# 89 MR. SHAPIRO:

Well, I didn't say room.

# 90 THE COURT:

What type of building were you in?

# 91 MR. FIATO:

Hotel.

# 92 MR. SHAPIRO:

And what type of room within the hotel?

# 93 MR. FIATO:

A room. I'm not trying to be funny.

# 94 MR. SHAPIRO:

Was it a suite?

# 95 MR. FIATO:

I think it was my brother's room.

# 96 MR. SHAPIRO:

Was it a single room, a double room?

# 97 MR. FIATO:

Yeah, single room.

# 98 MR. SHAPIRO:

And the approximate size of the room?

# 99 THE COURT:

That is not particularly relevant.

# 100 MR. SHAPIRO:

I'm sorry?

# 101 THE COURT:

Not particularly relevant.

# 102 MR. SHAPIRO:

It may be for the next witness, your Honor.

# 103 THE COURT:

Proceed.

# 104 MR. SHAPIRO:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 105 MR. SHAPIRO:

And during the course of the conversation regarding the O.J. Simpson case, did Detective Vannatter make a statement to you as to why he went to the Rockingham location for the investigation of the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson?

# 106 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 107 MR. SHAPIRO:

What did he tell you?

# 108 MR. FIATO:

The exact words I don't know. I don't know the exact--if you want it word for word, I don't know, but it was something to the effect that he went over there as Mr. Simpson as the suspect.

# 109 MR. SHAPIRO:

And you have told this to the District Attorneys in this case?

# 110 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 111 MR. SHAPIRO:

And that has been tape-recorded?

# 112 MR. FIATO:

Probably, yeah.

# 113 MR. SHAPIRO:

That took place on September the 13th?

# 114 MR. FIATO:

I don't know what day it is today, so I--it was a couple of days ago.

# 115 MR. SHAPIRO:

And this was during--during this conversation was Detective Vannatter drinking any beer?

# 116 MR. FIATO:

Umm, I remember there was beer in the room, yeah. We were all having beer, yeah.

# 117 MR. SHAPIRO:

So it was a comfortable place where everybody felt at ease with one another, all being parts of law enforcement to one degree or another?

# 118 MR. FIATO:

Umm, yeah.

# 119 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you have another conversation with Detective Vannatter within that same time framework but sometime later?

# 120 MR. FIATO:

Uh-huh, yes.

# 121 MR. SHAPIRO:

And would you--did you estimate that as around February?

# 122 MR. FIATO:

I believe so. It is very hard to--you know, all these things run into one another, but yes.

# 123 MR. SHAPIRO:

And did that take place in this building?

# 124 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 125 MR. SHAPIRO:

The District Attorney's office is located on the 18th floor?

# 126 MR. FIATO:

Is that the--it is upstairs.

# 127 MR. SHAPIRO:

And did you have a conversation with Detective Vannatter on the 18th floor outside on the balcony?

# 128 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 129 MR. SHAPIRO:

What were you doing out there?

# 130 MR. FIATO:

I was having a smoke.

# 131 MR. SHAPIRO:

What was he doing there?

# 132 MR. FIATO:

Smoking.

# 133 MR. SHAPIRO:

And why were you here in this building?

# 134 MR. FIATO:

Umm, testifying at the first Frank Christi trial. I'm not sure if I was a rebuttal or what. I don't know.

# 135 MR. SHAPIRO:

So you were here as a witness for the District Attorney's office?

# 136 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 137 MR. SHAPIRO:

And during the conversation that you had with Detective Vannatter on the balcony of the 18th floor did the subject of the O.J. Simpson case come up?

# 138 (No audible response.)

# 139 MR. SHAPIRO:

You can answer that yes or no.

# 140 MR. FIATO:

Umm, yes.

# 141 MR. SHAPIRO:

And did Detective Vannatter tell you why he went over to the Rockingham house in February while on the 18th floor having a cigarette?

# 142 MR. FIATO:

I don't know if he--that was why. All I can say is what he--what the words were. It was similar to what he said up in the hotel room.

# 143 MR. SHAPIRO:

Would you tell the jury what that was.

# 144 MR. FIATO:

Again, that he went over to Mr. Simpson's house with Mr. Simpson as a suspect.

# 145 MR. SHAPIRO:

And did he say anything about the husband always being the suspect?

# 146 MR. FIATO:

He could have. I'm not sure.

# 147 MR. KELBERG:

Your Honor, I move to strike as calling for speculation.

# 148 THE COURT:

Sustained. The last part of the answer is stricken after "Could have."

# 149 MR. SHAPIRO:

Do you remember being asked that exact question by Mr. Kelberg in your tape-recorded interview on September the 13th?

# 150 MR. FIATO:

Umm, I don't know. They asked me a lot of questions. He could have.

# 151 MR. SHAPIRO:

Has anybody played that tape-recording for you after it was taken?

# 152 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 153 MR. SHAPIRO:

Have you ever been shown a transcript of it?

# 154 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 155 MR. SHAPIRO:

You have talked to the District Attorneys about your conversations with Phil Vannatter, obviously, and you told them that?

# 156 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 157 MR. SHAPIRO:

Was a request made, through either the District Attorney or the lawyers for the FBI, that a Defense lawyer would like to talk to you?

# 158 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 159 MR. SHAPIRO:

What was your response?

# 160 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 161 MR. SHAPIRO:

May I approach the witness, your Honor?

# 162 THE COURT:

To refresh recollection?

# 163 MR. SHAPIRO:

Yes.

# 164 MR. SHAPIRO:

This is Mr. Kelberg's questioning on page 12 of the tape-recorded interview. Let me see if I can just direct your attention to this. Here is the question by Mr. Kelberg on line 21. I would like you to read to yourself line 21 through 28, and if you need to go back to get the sequence, please fell free to do so, but let us know.

# 165 MR. FIATO:

(Witness complies.) Okay. Where did he go? Oh.

# 166 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you have a chance to read that?

# 167 MR. FIATO:

Yeah.

# 168 MR. SHAPIRO:

Does that refresh your memory as to the questions that Mr. Kelberg asked you and the answers you gave?

# 169 MR. FIATO:

It doesn't refresh my memory, but it is there, so I must have said it.

KEY QUOTE

# 170 MR. SHAPIRO:

All right. So we know what we are talking about, the question was--

# 171 MR. KELBERG:

I object, your Honor, as calling for hearsay, lack of foundation.

# 172 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 173 MR. SHAPIRO:

Were you asked by Mr. Kelberg--

# 174 MR. KELBERG:

I'm going to object to any reading from the transcript.

# 175 MR. SHAPIRO:

I'm not going to read from the transcript.

# 176 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did Mr. Kelberg ask you whether or not--

# 177 MR. KELBERG:

It calls for hearsay as to what was said in this out-of-court conversation.

# 178 THE COURT:

It is hearsay.

# 179 MR. SHAPIRO:

Was there a conversation you had with Mr. Kelberg in the District Attorney's office with Mr. Hodgman on September the 13th, 1995?

# 180 MR. FIATO:

If that is the day I was in the room with them, yes.

# 181 MR. SHAPIRO:

The transcript says that is the date.

# 182 MR. FIATO:

Okay. Then that's the date.

# 183 MR. SHAPIRO:

I will show you the transcript here and then you can see if--

# 184 THE COURT:

There is no dispute as to the date, is there?

# 185 MR. KELBERG:

None whatsoever, your Honor.

# 186 MR. FIATO:

I just can't remember the date.

# 187 MR. SHAPIRO:

Do you know this gentleman seated to my left?

# 188 MR. FIATO:

Yeah.

# 189 MR. SHAPIRO:

That is Mr. Kelberg?

# 190 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 191 MR. SHAPIRO:

Deputy District Attorney?

# 192 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 193 MR. SHAPIRO:

And this is Mr. Hodgman seated to his left?

# 194 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 195 MR. SHAPIRO:

Were both of those gentlemen there?

# 196 MR. FIATO:

Yes, there were.

# 197 MR. SHAPIRO:

Was also an investigator there by the name of Bill Guidis or Guidas?

# 198 MR. FIATO:

There was another person there.

# 199 MR. SHAPIRO:

Guidas?

# 200 MR. FIATO:

There was another person there, yes.

# 201 MR. SHAPIRO:

And you were there?

# 202 MR. FIATO:

Yup.

# 203 MR. SHAPIRO:

The interview start at approximately 1:30 P.M.?

# 204 MR. FIATO:

I have no idea.

# 205 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did it go for approximately a half hour?

# 206 MR. FIATO:

Felt like three hours, but I don't know.

# 207 THE COURT:

All right. Counsel, let me see you without the court reporter.

# 208 (A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)

# 209 (The following proceedings were held in open court:)

# 210 MR. SHAPIRO:

May we just have a moment?

# 211 THE COURT:

Yes. Mr. Shapiro, you can lead into that question.

# 212 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 213 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did you have any conversation with Mr. Kelberg about whether Vannatter, Detective Vannatter, said the husband is always a suspect?

# 214 MR. FIATO:

I may have.

# 215 MR. SHAPIRO:

And if you did, is that something that you have any recollection at all of Detective Vannatter saying?

# 216 MR. FIATO:

Right now, no.

# 217 MR. SHAPIRO:

How about then?

# 218 MR. FIATO:

Right now--then I might have. I--I don't remember saying it. I vaguely remember the meeting.

# 219 MR. SHAPIRO:

Have you seen Detective Vannatter after February?

# 220 (No audible response.)

# 221 MR. SHAPIRO:

Of this year?

# 222 MR. FIATO:

I don't think I have seen Detective Vannatter since then.

# 223 MR. SHAPIRO:

Were you present when Detective Vannatter made some comments about your brother dating Denise Brown?

# 224 MR. FIATO:

I don't--I don't think so, no. I don't think so.

# 225 MR. SHAPIRO:

Did your brother ever discuss that with you?

# 226 MR. FIATO:

He had mentioned it, yeah, vague, something like that.

# 227 MR. KELBERG:

Your Honor, I'm going to object.

# 228 MR. SHAPIRO:

And that the LAPD--

# 229 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 230 MR. KELBERG:

Irrelevant.

# 231 MR. SHAPIRO:

Thank you. Nothing further.

# 232 THE COURT:

Mr. Kelberg.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KELBERG

# 233 MR. KELBERG:

Mr. Fiato, is it fair to say that the conversation you had in the hotel room with Mr. Vannatter was on a night that you would not describe as a serious night?

# 234 MR. FIATO:

It was not a serious night.

# 235 MR. KELBERG:

How would you describe that night?

# 236 MR. FIATO:

We were laughing and joking and it was like--I think it was when we first got back and we were all, you know, seeing each other again and you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, shooting the breeze.

# 237 MR. KELBERG:

If somebody characterized it as a bunch of guys bullshitting, would that be an accurate characterization?

KEY QUOTE

# 238 MR. SHAPIRO:

Object to that, your Honor.

# 239 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 240 MR. KELBERG:

Would it be accurate to characterize it as a bunch of guys B.S.'ing?

# 241 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection, your Honor.

# 242 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 243 MR. KELBERG:

You may answer that question?

# 244 MR. FIATO:

I can answer that?

# 245 MR. KELBERG:

Yes.

# 246 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 247 MR. KELBERG:

And the statement out on the smoking deck, would you describe the circumstances, in general, of that particular event, similar to what we were asking you about as to whether it was a serious night at the hotel room?

# 248 MR. FIATO:

No. I mean, it was not serious--it was similar to the hotel room.

# 249 MR. KELBERG:

And in fact was part of the conversation with Mr. Vannatter on the smoking deck involving the stress that he had been suffering from the publicity of the case, the cameras?

# 250 MR. FIATO:

Both.

# 251 MR. KELBERG:

And the nature of the case?

# 252 MR. FIATO:

Both.

# 253 MR. SHAPIRO:

I'm going to object. That is irrelevant, your Honor.

# 254 THE COURT:

Overruled. Move on.

# 255 MR. KELBERG:

I'm sorry, may the answer--

# 256 THE COURT:

He said yes. Move on.

# 257 MR. KELBERG:

And would it be accurate to say, Mr. Fiato, that neither one of these statements is something on which you have a clear memory as to exactly what was said?

# 258 MR. FIATO:

That's correct.

# 259 MR. KELBERG:

Would it be accurate to say that you did not attribute anything of significance to whatever Mr. Vannatter may have said on either occasion?

# 260 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection. His state of mind is irrelevant.

# 261 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 262 MR. KELBERG:

You may answer.

# 263 MR. FIATO:

That's correct.

# 264 MR. KELBERG:

May I have just a moment, your Honor?

# 265 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 266 MR. KELBERG:

Mr. Fiato, as best you recall, did Detective Vannatter make the statement about the Rockingham visit in the context of venting frustration over the allegations raised against him?

# 267 THE COURT:

Sustained, sustained.

# 268 MR. KELBERG:

Without--withdraw the question. May I have just one moment?

# 269 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 270 MR. KELBERG:

By the way, Mr. Fiato, when you were interviewed by myself and Mr. Hodgman, you had never meet either one of us before, had you?

# 271 MR. FIATO:

I know I never met you. I know that. I might have seen Mr. Hodgman before, but I don't think we were formally introduced.

# 272 MR. KELBERG:

And in the--was the comment about the visit to Rockingham made in the context of the discussion of the stress of the case, both your case and the case that Mr. Vannatter was on?

# 273 MR. FIATO:

We were talking about stressful things, so yes.

# 274 MR. KELBERG:

And the cameras were a part of that stressful thing conversation?

# 275 MR. FIATO:

Yeah, yes.

# 276 MR. KELBERG:

And that was the substance on both occasions, both at the hotel and in the smoking deck?

# 277 MR. FIATO:

I know it was at the smoking deck. I'm not too sure about the hotel room, but we were, you know--

# 278 MR. KELBERG:

I have nothing further, your Honor.

# 279 THE COURT:

Mr. Shapiro.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

# 280 MR. SHAPIRO:

When you talked to Mr. Hodgman and to Mr. Kelberg, you clearly remember that you told them on two occasions that Detective Vannatter told you that he went to the Rockingham house because O.J. Simpson was a suspect? There is no question in your mind about that, is there?

# 281 MR. FIATO:

That's correct.

# 282 MR. SHAPIRO:

And that is in fact what Detective Vannatter told you?

# 283 MR. FIATO:

That's correct.

# 284 MR. SHAPIRO:

And he wasn't telling you any jokes that day, was he?

# 285 MR. FIATO:

Well, we were kidding around. Not like a joke joke, but we were messing around.

# 286 MR. SHAPIRO:

But there was nothing funny about the O.J. Simpson, was it?

# 287 MR. FIATO:

Well, I don't believe--I don't remember--I don't think we were talking directly about the case, but stuff on the outer edges, you know.

# 288 MR. SHAPIRO:

You were talking about police intention and why he went over there, were you?

# 289 MR. KELBERG:

Objection, your Honor, outside the scope and leading.

# 290 THE COURT:

Overruled. You may answer.

# 291 MR. FIATO:

I don't remember that.

# 292 MR. SHAPIRO:

And when you were outside up here on the 18th floor, you were here for serious business? You were here as a witness in a murder case, weren't you?

# 293 MR. FIATO:

That's correct.

# 294 MR. SHAPIRO:

And when you were talking to Detective Vannatter, you are absolutely certain he again brought up the fact that when he went to O.J. Simpson's house he went there because he was a suspect, didn't you?

# 295 MR. KELBERG:

Asked and answered.

# 296 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 297 MR. FIATO:

I--

# 298 THE COURT:

You may answer that.

# 299 MR. FIATO:

That's correct.

# 300 MR. SHAPIRO:

There is no doubt in your mind he said that, is there?

# 301 MR. FIATO:

There is no doubt in my mind he said that.

KEY QUOTE

# 302 MR. SHAPIRO:

Thank you very much.

# 303 MR. KELBERG:

Very briefly, your Honor.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KELBERG

# 304 MR. KELBERG:

Mr. Fiato, when you testified as a witness at the first trial when you were in court, that was very serious business, wasn't it?

# 305 MR. FIATO:

When I was in court, yes.

# 306 MR. KELBERG:

When you were not in court did you in fact joke around with Detective Vannatter?

# 307 MR. FIATO:

Yes. It is one of the ways to get this stuff off of your chest.

# 308 MR. KELBERG:

Did you find that that was also what Detective Vannatter did with you?

# 309 MR. SHAPIRO:

Speculation, objection.

# 310 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 311 MR. KELBERG:

Did it appear to you that that was what Detective Vannatter was doing with you?

# 312 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection.

# 313 THE COURT:

Sustained. Rephrase the question.

# 314 MR. KELBERG:

Did it appear, as you were joking with Detective Vannatter to relieve your stress, that Detective Vannatter was similarly joking with you?

# 315 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection, your Honor.

# 316 THE COURT:

Sustained. Rephrase the question.

# 317 MR. KELBERG:

All right.

# 318 MR. KELBERG:

How would you characterize what Detective Vannatter was doing with you when you were joking with him to relieve your stress?

# 319 MR. FIATO:

He was acting the same way I was acting, so if that means that he was acting like me, I would have to say he was acting like me because it looked that way.

KEY QUOTE

# 320 MR. KELBERG:

Is that the circumstance both at the hotel and out on the smoking deck?

# 321 MR. FIATO:

Yes. That is what we had in common.

# 322 MR. KELBERG:

He have nothing further, your Honor.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

# 323 MR. SHAPIRO:

Were you lying to Detective Vannatter on either of these two conversations?

# 324 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 325 MR. SHAPIRO:

Was he lying to you?

# 326 MR. KELBERG:

Your Honor--

# 327 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 328 MR. FIATO:

I--

# 329 MR. SHAPIRO:

Nothing further.

# 330 MR. KELBERG:

May the witness be excused?

# 331 THE COURT:

Yes. Mr. Fiato, thank you very much, sir.

# 332 MR. FIATO:

Thank you.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Larry Fiato

It was something to the effect that he went over there as Mr. Simpson as the suspect.

The core of Fiato's testimony — directly contradicting Vannatter's earlier claim that he went to Rockingham only to notify Simpson, not treat him as a suspect.

Larry Fiato

There is no doubt in my mind he said that.

Fiato's unambiguous affirmation on redirect, after Kelberg's cross attempted to cast the statements as casual and meaningless.

Brian Kelberg

If somebody characterized it as a bunch of guys bullshitting, would that be an accurate characterization?

The prosecution's central strategy — reframe Vannatter's statement as locker-room venting rather than an admission against interest.

Larry Fiato

He was acting the same way I was acting, so if that means that he was acting like me, I would have to say he was acting like me because it looked that way.

Fiato's circular but genuine answer on recross — he concedes Vannatter was in the same casual mode, which the prosecution uses to argue the statement was not a serious admission.

Larry Fiato

It doesn't refresh my memory, but it is there, so I must have said it.

Candid acknowledgment of his own fuzzy memory — undercuts his certainty on some peripheral details while the core statement about 'suspect' remains firm.

Evidence (1)

Informal

Tape-recorded interview of Fiato by Kelberg and Hodgman on September 13, 1995

Referenced to refresh recollection; transcript shown to witness but not read aloud; contents disputed on hearsay grounds

Notable Exchanges (3)

Robert Shapiro•Larry Fiato

Shapiro elicits on redirect that Fiato told DA investigators on September 13 — on two separate occasions — that Vannatter said he went to Rockingham because Simpson was a suspect, and that Fiato has 'no doubt' about this.

strategic

Brian Kelberg•Larry Fiato

Kelberg methodically establishes that both conversations were casual, stress-venting situations — 'guys B.S.'ing' — and that Fiato did not attribute significance to whatever Vannatter said at the time.

strategic

Lance A. Ito•Robert Shapiro

Bench conference held off the record; after returning, Ito permits Shapiro to lead into the question about whether Vannatter said 'the husband is always a suspect.'

procedural

Light Moments (2)

Larry Fiato

Fiato, asked about the size of the hotel room, says 'A room. I'm not trying to be funny' — and then Judge Ito cuts off the line of questioning as 'not particularly relevant.'

Larry Fiato

When asked if the interview lasted about a half hour, Fiato replies: 'Felt like three hours, but I don't know.'

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Larry Fiato

contextual minimization

Kelberg establishes that both conversations occurred in casual, non-serious settings (guys joking around, beer present, stress-venting) and that Fiato himself did not attribute significance to what Vannatter said at the time — framing the 'suspect' statement as offhand rather than a meaningful admission.

⚔ Larry Fiato

memory uncertainty

Fiato repeatedly admits he cannot recall exact words, dates, or whether specific things were said (e.g., 'the husband is always a suspect'), and notes that the tape-recorded transcript does not refresh his memory — only confirms he said it.

⚔ Philip Vannatter

prior inconsistent statement via third-party witness

The entire examination is an attack on Vannatter's prior testimony that he went to Rockingham only to notify Simpson — Fiato's account that Vannatter called Simpson 'a suspect' directly contradicts that claim.

Witness Demeanor

(No audible response.) — twice, when asked whether the OJ case came up in conversation

Hesitant and uncertain throughout on dates and specifics, but becomes definitive on the core 'suspect' statement

Objections

19 objections (13 sustained, 5 overruled)

Proceeding 7743 • 332 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103