Direct examination of Craig Anthony Fiato

📄 Direct examination of Craig Anthony Fiato — Tuesday, September 19, 1995

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C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\SEP\19\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-CRAIG-AN.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 157 of 167

Witness: Craig Fiato
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, September 19, 1995 • Utterances: 383

Craig Fiato, a government cooperating witness in an unrelated mob case, testified about a January 1995 hotel room conversation where he overheard Detective Philip Vannatter say 'the husband is always the suspect.' Cochran used this testimony to support the defense theory that Simpson was treated as a suspect from the beginning, while Kelberg's cross-examination undercut the impact by establishing Fiato only caught part of the conversation and had been 'pimping' (exaggerating) the story to his FBI handler.

# 1 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

# 2 MR. COCHRAN:

Good afternoon, Mr. Fiato.

# 3 MR. FIATO:

Good afternoon, Mr. Cochran.

# 4 MR. COCHRAN:

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

# 5 MR. COCHRAN:

Mr. Fiato, I would like to ask you a few questions, if we might. You and I have never met before, have we?

# 6 MR. FIATO:

No, we haven't.

# 7 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you get a request, through the District Attorney's office or through the United States Attorneys or through the FBI, that the Defense in this case wanted to talk with you?

# 8 MR. FIATO:

Yes, I did.

# 9 MR. COCHRAN:

And did you reject that request?

# 10 MR. FIATO:

Yes, I did.

# 11 MR. COCHRAN:

So we have never had an opportunity to talk before this?

# 12 MR. FIATO:

No, we haven't.

# 13 MR. COCHRAN:

All right, sir. Are you here to testify in another case?

# 14 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 15 MR. COCHRAN:

And which case is that?

# 16 MR. FIATO:

The Norman Freeburg trial, Frank Christi matter.

# 17 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that a case that you have testified in before, sir?

# 18 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 19 MR. COCHRAN:

How many times when you have testified before?

# 20 MR. FIATO:

Once.

# 21 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And are you still waiting to testify now on that case?

# 22 MR. FIATO:

Yeah, I believe so.

# 23 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, you have cooperated with the government in the past eleven or twelve years and testified for them in cases; is that correct, sir?

# 24 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 25 MR. COCHRAN:

And your brother is named Larry Fiato?

# 26 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 27 MR. COCHRAN:

All right, sir?

# 28 MR. FIATO:

Excuse me. I would like to clarify something. I don't believe I am going to testify in the Christi trial. I'm not sure. I don't know what the disposition of that is.

# 29 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You have testified before, you don't know if you will be called to testify again; is that right?

# 30 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 31 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, you are aware and acquainted with the detectives in the Christi case, are you not?

# 32 MR. FIATO:

With the detective?

# 33 MR. COCHRAN:

Yeah, the detective assigned to that case?

# 34 MR. FIATO:

Yes, yes.

# 35 MR. COCHRAN:

You know Tom Lange?

# 36 MR. FIATO:

Yes, I do.

# 37 MR. COCHRAN:

You know a detective by the name of McLean?

# 38 MR. FIATO:

Yes, I do.

# 39 MR. COCHRAN:

They are partners in this case; is that correct?

# 40 MR. FIATO:

Yes, they are.

# 41 MR. COCHRAN:

How long have you been involved in that case altogether?

# 42 MR. FIATO:

Probably I believe somewhere since 1988.

# 43 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Over a period of last five years or so; is that correct?

# 44 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 45 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, sometime during that period of time did you meet another detective by the name of Philip Vannatter?

# 46 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 47 MR. COCHRAN:

When was that approximately, Mr. Fiato?

# 48 MR. FIATO:

Oh, let's see. I believe it was in 1994.

# 49 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So would it be a fair statement--

# 50 MR. FIATO:

Excuse me.

# 51 MR. COCHRAN:

Sorry.

# 52 MR. FIATO:

I'm not exactly clear. I believe it might have been in--in January of--I think--I believe I met him one time prior to that, but I think I can say for sure in January of 1995.

# 53 MR. COCHRAN:

All right, sir. Let me see if I understand what you just indicated to us. You may have met Detective Vannatter sometime during the year of 1994, but you specifically recall talking with him in January of 1995; is that correct?

# 54 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 55 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And let's direct our attention to the conversation in January of 1995. Do you recall a conversation you had with Detective Vannatter where you were present at a hotel room somewhere?

# 56 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 57 MR. COCHRAN:

And would you tell us who else was present during this conversation?

# 58 MR. FIATO:

Tom Lange--Detective Tom Lange, Detective Vannatter and myself, dale Davidson, the District Attorney, and my brother, Lawrence Fiato.

# 59 MR. COCHRAN:

Dale Davidson is a member of the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office; is that correct?

# 60 MR. FIATO:

Yes, and he was--yeah.

# 61 MR. COCHRAN:

He was the Prosecuting Attorney on this other case you have been talking about?

# 62 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 63 MR. COCHRAN:

And we have described this conversation took place in a room. Do you recall on this occasion that all of you gentlemen were kind of sitting around drinking beer?

# 64 MR. FIATO:

Yes, we--yeah. Yes.

# 65 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes?

# 66 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 67 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And that included you and your brother and Vannatter and Lange, et cetera; is that correct?

# 68 MR. KELBERG:

Objection, leading, your Honor.

# 69 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 70 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 71 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you know the approximate date in January of 1995 this conversation took place?

# 72 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 73 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You just know it was in January; is that right?

# 74 MR. FIATO:

I believe so.

# 75 MR. COCHRAN:

Anyone else present during that conversation that you recall now?

# 76 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 77 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. During that conversation do you recall Detective Vannatter making a statement regarding his going to the Simpson residence in the early morning hours of June 13th, 1994?

# 78 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 79 MR. COCHRAN:

You don't recall him making a statement to you?

# 80 MR. FIATO:

Not saying that, no.

# 81 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You don't recall him making a statement about going to the Simpson house, Mr. Simpson being a suspect?

# 82 MR. FIATO:

I--no, he didn't say that.

# 83 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You don't recall--let me ask--listen to my question. Do you recall a conversation wherein the subject matter of Detective Vannatter going to Mr. Simpson's home in the early morning of January 13th came up?

# 84 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 85 MR. COCHRAN:

You don't recall that at all?

# 86 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 87 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, do you recall that you gave a tape or a tape-recorded interview with the District Attorney's office in the recent past?

# 88 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 89 MR. COCHRAN:

And you were asked questions about this conversation back in January of 1995; is that correct?

# 90 MR. FIATO:

I believe so.

# 91 MR. COCHRAN:

Have you listened to that tape at all, sir?

# 92 MR. FIATO:

No, I haven't.

# 93 MR. COCHRAN:

You have not heard it? Have you seen any transcript of that particular tape?

# 94 MR. FIATO:

Not at all.

# 95 MR. COCHRAN:

Have you read anything prior to your coming here to testify today?

# 96 MR. FIATO:

Not a thing.

# 97 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you get a chance to talk to Mr. Kelberg today prior to your testifying?

# 98 MR. FIATO:

No, I haven't.

# 99 MR. COCHRAN:

That gentleman over there?

# 100 MR. FIATO:

No, I haven't.

# 101 MR. COCHRAN:

You not talked to him at all today?

# 102 MR. FIATO:

I would remember him. No.

# 103 MR. COCHRAN:

Would you have talked to him? You talked to him on the tape, did you not?

# 104 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 105 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You recall that? He asked you a lot of questions?

# 106 MR. FIATO:

Yeah. He asked me questions, yes.

# 107 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You have not talked to him today?

# 108 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 109 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk to Mr. Hodgman today?

# 110 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 111 MR. COCHRAN:

When was that?

# 112 MR. FIATO:

I think about an hour ago, an hour and a half.

# 113 MR. COCHRAN:

During the lunch hour?

# 114 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 115 MR. COCHRAN:

Preparatory to your testifying here?

# 116 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 117 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, he talked to you before you testified here, right?

# 118 MR. FIATO:

Not in relation to my testimony.

# 119 MR. COCHRAN:

Just had a conversation?

# 120 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 121 MR. COCHRAN:

Now--just a moment, your Honor.

# 122 (Brief pause.)

# 123 MR. COCHRAN:

By the way, you were never present during a conversation between your brother and Detective Vannatter on a landing up on the 18th floor of this particular building, were you?

# 124 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 125 MR. COCHRAN:

Was the beer you were drinking at this hotel room Heineken?

# 126 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 127 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you know who Michael Wacks is?

# 128 MR. FIATO:

I sure do.

# 129 MR. COCHRAN:

Who is he?

# 130 MR. FIATO:

He is an FBI agent.

# 131 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you have contact with him?

# 132 MR. FIATO:

Yes, I do.

# 133 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you recall that in this January conversation that you heard Detective Philip Vannatter say that O.J. Simpson was always a suspect and we always go after--we always go after the husband? Do you remember him saying that?

# 134 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 135 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you remember him saying that? Do you remember saying that on tape to the District Attorney's office?

# 136 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 137 MR. COCHRAN:

If I were to show you--you are Craig Fiato, right?

# 138 MR. FIATO:

I sure am.

# 139 MR. COCHRAN:

If I were to show you a transcript of a tape, would that perhaps refresh your recollection?

# 140 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 141 MR. COCHRAN:

Counsel, I'm referring to page 9, line 24, I believe.

# 142 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 143 MR. COCHRAN:

May I approach, your Honor?

# 144 THE COURT:

You may.

# 145 MR. COCHRAN:

May I direct him, your Honor?

# 146 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm going to direct you to a point, and I will ask to you read this to yourself first and we will see if it refreshes your recollection at all. Let's start here for C, that is Craig, starting here at the bottom of the page to yourself.

# 147 MR. FIATO:

(Witness complies.) Yes.

# 148 MR. COCHRAN:

Have you read that?

# 149 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 150 MR. COCHRAN:

And you, of course, have never listened to the tape you said?

# 151 MR. FIATO:

Yes, sir.

# 152 MR. COCHRAN:

Does that refresh your recollection? You said that Phil Vannatter said regarding O.J. Simpson that he was always a suspect and we always go after--we always go--go after the husband? You went on to say that is what you said. Is that what he said?

# 153 MR. FIATO:

I don't believe that was in the context of the question that you asked me. I don't believe that.

# 154 MR. COCHRAN:

The question I'm asking you, sir, does that refresh your recollection that that is what you told the District Attorney's office that Detective Vannatter said in the January conversation? That is the question.

# 155 MR. KELBERG:

Objection, your Honor. That assumes a fact not in evidence. It is out of context, if the court would look at the entire page.

# 156 MR. COCHRAN:

Speaking objection, your Honor.

# 157 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 158 MR. COCHRAN:

Would you answer the question, sir, for me?

# 159 THE COURT:

Do you understand the question?

# 160 MR. FIATO:

I don't understand the question, but I don't know who I was talking to here.

# 161 THE COURT:

Why don't you restate the question, Mr. Cochran.

# 162 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me see if I can restate this.

# 163 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 164 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me ask you this: The statement I just had you read, does that refresh your recollection that you heard Phil Vannatter in the hotel room in January of 1995, when you were all sitting around drinking beers, say that O.J. Simpson was always a suspect, we always--we always go after the husband? Does that refresh your recollection that you heard that?

# 165 MR. FIATO:

I heard--I heard Detective Vannatter say the suspect is always--I mean, the husband is always the suspect. That is what I heard him say.

KEY QUOTE

# 166 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. That is what you heard?

# 167 MR. FIATO:

Excuse me. Let me finish. He didn't say O.J. Simpson? He said the suspect is always--is always the husband?

# 168 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. He when he made that statement, he was talking about the O.J. Simpson case; isn't that credit?

# 169 MR. FIATO:

I believe so. I believe that was in general.

# 170 MR. COCHRAN:

That is what we are talking about. He was talking about the O.J. Simpson case; isn't that right, sir?

# 171 MR. FIATO:

I believe that was--I don't know. I believe that was--that was a general statement. That is how I took it. I don't know the context--excuse me. I don't know the context in which he said it.

# 172 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Well, when you said on the tape, as follows: "I heard Phil Vannatter say that--that O.J. Simpson was always a suspect, we always go off--we always go after the husband," you used the words "O.J. Simpson" on the tape, did you not?

# 173 MR. KELBERG:

I object, your Honor. That misstates what the statement is in the context--

# 174 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 175 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you use the word "O.J. Simpson" in referring to this statement about Vannatter at some point?

# 176 MR. FIATO:

I see that--I see that that is the transcript of what I said, but I don't know in what context--

# 177 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 178 MR. FIATO:

--and who I'm talking to here.

# 179 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Well, let me ask you, after you had heard this statement of Detective Vannatter back in January--

# 180 MR. FIATO:

Uh-huh.

# 181 MR. COCHRAN:

--and later this year, perhaps in September, on or about September 8th, 1995, you had occasion to have a conversation with a man named Vic Walters at ABC television?

# 182 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 183 MR. COCHRAN:

And at that time you made a statement to Vic Walters, didn't you?

# 184 MR. FIATO:

I said a lot of things to Vic Walters.

# 185 MR. COCHRAN:

Let's talk about the statement you made to Vic Walters about Vannatter's statement regarding O.J. Simpson and going to O.J. Simpson's. Do you recall that?

# 186 MR. FIATO:

I don't know. No, I don't recall it.

# 187 MR. COCHRAN:

You don't recall it?

# 188 MR. FIATO:

I'm sure I discussed something about Detective Vannatter with him, but specifically I think you are being vague. If you can ask me a specific question, then I can give you an answer.

# 189 MR. COCHRAN:

Sir, I don't want to be vague. This is a conversation that took place on September 8th. Your memory is not vague about that?

# 190 MR. FIATO:

On September 8th?

# 191 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes, September 8th?

# 192 MR. FIATO:

Yeah.

# 193 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you have a conversation with Vic Walters on September 8th?

# 194 MR. FIATO:

I said so.

# 195 MR. COCHRAN:

And at that time were you angry at Phil Vannatter?

# 196 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 197 MR. COCHRAN:

And at that time were you angry because Detective Vannatter and some members of the District Attorney's office had said some things about you and you weren't happy about?

# 198 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 199 MR. COCHRAN:

It had to do with Denise Brown?

# 200 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 201 MR. COCHRAN:

And at that time you had a conversation with Vic Walters, right?

# 202 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 203 MR. COCHRAN:

And did you not say at some point, "If they don't treat me better when I come out to California, I'll tell them what I know about the O.J. Simpson case"? Didn't you tell Vic Walters that?

# 204 MR. FIATO:

Absolutely not.

# 205 MR. COCHRAN:

You never told him that?

# 206 MR. FIATO:

Not, no.

# 207 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. But you then had a conversation with Vic Walters, didn't you?

# 208 MR. FIATO:

I said I did.

# 209 MR. COCHRAN:

And in that conversation didn't you tell him that Vannatter said that O.J. Simpson was always a suspect and we always go after the husband? Did you tell Vic Walters that?

# 210 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 211 MR. COCHRAN:

And that was on or about September 8th of 1995; is that right?

# 212 MR. FIATO:

Would you please repeat that back to me one more time?

# 213 MR. COCHRAN:

Certainly, sir. We were talking about the conversation you had--

# 214 MR. FIATO:

I know what we were talking about, but what did I say?

# 215 MR. COCHRAN:

I will read it verbatim. "heard--I heard Phil Vannatter say that that--that O.J. Simpson was--was--was always a suspect and we always go after--we always--we always go--go after the husband." Is that what you told Vic Walters on or about September 8th, sir?

# 216 MR. FIATO:

I believe so.

# 217 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, after you had had this conversation with Vic Walters, Agent Wacks of the FBI found out about your conversation with Vic Walters; isn't that correct?

# 218 MR. FIATO:

I told him.

# 219 MR. COCHRAN:

The answer is yes, that he found out about the conversation?

# 220 MR. FIATO:

Yes, yes.

# 221 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And then after that conversation--are you aware of what happened after that regarding Agent Wacks, that he made a report to his supervisor?

# 222 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 223 MR. COCHRAN:

Then of course you are here pursuant to a subpoena; is that correct, sir?

# 224 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 225 MR. COCHRAN:

You are not here voluntarily, are you?

# 226 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 227 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, to go back to the conversation in January of 1995, had Detective Vannatter ever discussed the O.J. Simpson case with you prior to that particular day, January of 1995, and the other time you met him in `94?

# 228 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 229 MR. COCHRAN:

That was the first time?

# 230 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 231 MR. COCHRAN:

Did he talk to you about the O.J. Simpson case at any time after the conversation in January of 1995?

# 232 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 233 MR. COCHRAN:

Have you had occasion to discuss with your brother his recollection regarding this conversation in January of 1995?

# 234 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 235 MR. COCHRAN:

You have not talked to him about it?

# 236 MR. FIATO:

My brother's testimony?

# 237 MR. COCHRAN:

Yeah, about his testimony.

# 238 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 239 MR. COCHRAN:

About what he recalled?

# 240 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 241 MR. COCHRAN:

You haven't talked about that today either?

# 242 MR. FIATO:

No. The cops rushed me out, him up and me out.

# 243 MR. COCHRAN:

So you didn't talk to him before you came down?

# 244 MR. FIATO:

I didn't get a shot.

# 245 MR. COCHRAN:

Hum?

# 246 MR. FIATO:

I didn't get a shot at it, no.

# 247 MR. COCHRAN:

Didn't get a shot at talking to him?

# 248 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 249 MR. COCHRAN:

Before you came down here when the two of you were up there, you never talked about it at all?

# 250 MR. FIATO:

Did we ever talk about what we were going to testify to?

# 251 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes, sir.

# 252 MR. FIATO:

Me and him?

# 253 MR. COCHRAN:

You and your brother Larry?

# 254 MR. FIATO:

Yeah.

# 255 MR. COCHRAN:

You did talk about it, right?

# 256 MR. FIATO:

About what we were going to testify about?

# 257 MR. COCHRAN:

Yeah.

# 258 MR. FIATO:

That is very vague, sir.

# 259 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm trying not to be vague, sir.

# 260 MR. FIATO:

Thank you.

# 261 MR. COCHRAN:

About your testimony, you and your brother Lawrence discussed what your testimony might be in court before this jury?

# 262 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 263 MR. COCHRAN:

You never did at all?

# 264 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 265 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Did you fly out here together?

# 266 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 267 MR. COCHRAN:

Are you staying together?

# 268 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 269 MR. COCHRAN:

You came to court together?

# 270 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 271 MR. COCHRAN:

Upstairs in the D.A.'s office together?

# 272 MR. FIATO:

Yes, with an FBI agent. Yeah. We didn't stay in the same hotel room together. He did his thing and I did mine.

# 273 MR. COCHRAN:

But you do talk as brothers, don't you?

# 274 MR. FIATO:

Yeah, we talk as brothers.

# 275 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. May I have just a second, your Honor?

# 276 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 277 MR. COCHRAN:

Just a second, your Honor. Thank you very much.

# 278 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 279 MR. COCHRAN:

A few more questions, your Honor.

# 280 MR. COCHRAN:

Have you had lunch with Detective Vannatter at any time since that conversation in January when you were out here in California and had lunch with him, do you recall?

# 281 MR. FIATO:

No, I haven't.

# 282 MR. COCHRAN:

After you told FBI Agent Wacks about your conversation with Vic Walters at ABC, he called you a name, didn't he?

# 283 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 284 MR. COCHRAN:

He didn't call you a name?

# 285 MR. FIATO:

After I told him?

# 286 MR. COCHRAN:

Yeah.

# 287 MR. FIATO:

After I told him specifically?

# 288 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes.

# 289 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 290 MR. COCHRAN:

Wasn't he angry at you?

# 291 MR. FIATO:

Was he angry?

# 292 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes.

# 293 MR. FIATO:

Later on, not after I told him.

# 294 MR. COCHRAN:

Later on when you saw him he was angry; is that correct?

# 295 MR. FIATO:

I can't characterize as somebody being upset as angry. He didn't raise his voice to me. He didn't hell at me. He was upset.

# 296 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Describe for us how he appeared to you to be upset.

# 297 MR. FIATO:

Nervous and upset. Upset.

# 298 MR. COCHRAN:

Nervous and upset after he found out you had told ABC; is that right?

# 299 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 300 MR. COCHRAN:

And how did he manifest this upset?

# 301 MR. FIATO:

He called me--after I told him about that, I told him--I saw him being upset and I said I was pimping him and I was kidding. And then when I said that to him, he said, oh--excuse me. Can I swear in here?

# 302 THE COURT:

Be my guest.

# 303 MR. FIATO:

I don't want to, your Honor, but--

# 304 THE COURT:

Tell us what he said.

# 305 MR. FIATO:

Excuse me, ladies and gentlemen. He called me--he said it in this vein. "You prick, you really had me going."

KEY QUOTE

# 306 MR. COCHRAN:

This is after you had told him about the conversation with Vic Walters at ABC, right?

# 307 MR. FIATO:

Yes. Not exactly after. A little ways down the line.

# 308 MR. COCHRAN:

How much down the line?

# 309 MR. FIATO:

Maybe ten minutes later.

# 310 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, ten minutes later down the line?

# 311 MR. FIATO:

Yeah. We talked about a lot of things and then I let him know that I was pimping him.

# 312 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. I understand. Did you ever use these words: "They better treat me better or I'll tell them what I know about the O.J. case"? Did you ever say that?

# 313 MR. FIATO:

Never.

# 314 MR. COCHRAN:

You never used those words at all?

# 315 MR. FIATO:

I already answered that. I said never.

# 316 MR. COCHRAN:

Nothing further at this point, your Honor.

# 317 THE COURT:

Mr. Kelberg.

# 318 MR. KELBERG:

Very briefly, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KELBERG

# 319 MR. KELBERG:

Mr. Fiato?

# 320 MR. FIATO:

Yes, sir.

# 321 MR. KELBERG:

You were interviewed separately from your brother by Mr. Hodgman and me; is that correct?

# 322 MR. FIATO:

That's correct, sir.

# 323 MR. KELBERG:

You had never met, at please me, before the interview?

# 324 MR. FIATO:

That's correct.

# 325 MR. KELBERG:

Have you ever met Mr. Hodgman before?

# 326 MR. FIATO:

I don't believe so. I have seen him. I had seen him upstairs.

# 327 MR. KELBERG:

We asked you a lot of questions basically about your knowledge of any conversations with Mr. Vannatter; is that correct?

# 328 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 329 MR. KELBERG:

Now, sir, going back to the hotel and this conversation, would it be accurate to say that the main purpose of the group being together was a debriefing of you and your brother about--

# 330 MR. COCHRAN:

Assumes a fact not in evidence, your Honor.

# 331 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 332 MR. KELBERG:

--about your upcoming testimony in the retrial of the Christi case?

# 333 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 334 MR. KELBERG:

How would you characterize the atmosphere in that hotel room during the time of this meeting?

# 335 MR. FIATO:

Very friendly.

# 336 MR. KELBERG:

And was there casual conversation about things unrelated to the debriefing?

# 337 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 338 MR. KELBERG:

Was the subject of the debriefing the majority of what was taking place?

# 339 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 340 MR. KELBERG:

Did you overhear Mr. Vannatter making some statement that was directed either to you or it appeared to someone else, about someone being a suspect?

# 341 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 342 MR. KELBERG:

Did you catch all of what Mr. Vannatter said on the subject or did you catch a part of it?

# 343 MR. FIATO:

A part.

# 344 MR. KELBERG:

And do you have any independent memory of what led up to the part you heard?

# 345 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 346 MR. KELBERG:

And what part did you hear?

# 347 MR. FIATO:

"The husband is always the suspect."

# 348 MR. KELBERG:

Was there also conversation in general terms about how a homicide investigator--

# 349 MR. COCHRAN:

Object. This is leading, suggestive, assumes fact not in evidence.

# 350 THE COURT:

Overruled, overruled.

# 351 MR. KELBERG:

Was there also conversation that you heard involving Detective Vannatter about how in general terms homicide investigators begin the task of trying to identify a killer?

# 352 MR. FIATO:

I don't believe I heard that at all.

# 353 MR. KELBERG:

Can you provide any more context to what you heard Mr. Vannatter say than what you have just said, the husband is a suspect?

# 354 MR. FIATO:

No.

# 355 MR. KELBERG:

You were not present for any February conversation; is that correct?

# 356 MR. FIATO:

No. That is correct, yes.

# 357 MR. KELBERG:

And you described--would it be accurate to say that you were pimping Mr. Wacks, the FBI agent, after you had had this phone conversation with Mr. Walters?

# 358 MR. FIATO:

Well, the phone conversation I had with Mr. Walters concerning Vannatter was maybe two minutes out of a 40-minute phone call concerning another project so--

# 359 MR. KELBERG:

And what was it that you were doing that in your mind was pimping Mr. Wacks?

# 360 MR. FIATO:

I was exaggerating the circumstances to aggravate him.

KEY QUOTE

# 361 MR. KELBERG:

Why did you want to aggravate Mr. Wacks?

# 362 MR. FIATO:

Well, that is what pimping does. You pimp each other and I got one over on you and he has done it to me in all these years I have known him.

# 363 MR. KELBERG:

And you enjoyed that exercise; is that correct?

# 364 MR. FIATO:

I was ecstatic with that exercise.

# 365 MR. KELBERG:

Would it be accurate to say that it did not appear that Agent Wacks shared your enthusiasm for what you had done?

# 366 MR. FIATO:

The blood drained from his face.

KEY QUOTE

# 367 MR. KELBERG:

I have nothing further, your Honor.

# 368 THE COURT:

Mr. Cochran.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

# 369 MR. COCHRAN:

So do I understand, in using this term "Pimping," that you and Agent Wacks pimp each over the years; is that right?

# 370 MR. FIATO:

Yes, Mr. Cochran.

# 371 MR. COCHRAN:

This is like a little thing between you; is that right?

# 372 MR. FIATO:

Yes, sir.

# 373 MR. COCHRAN:

When Mr. Vannatter was talking back in January of 1995, you have told us the part of the conversation that you heard, right?

# 374 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 375 MR. COCHRAN:

You have been as accurate as you could about that, right?

# 376 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 377 MR. COCHRAN:

The husband always being the suspect, right?

# 378 MR. FIATO:

Yes.

# 379 MR. COCHRAN:

We thank you very much for coming today, sir.

# 380 MR. FIATO:

Thank you, sir.

# 381 MR. KELBERG:

May the witness be excused, your Honor?

# 382 THE COURT:

Yes. Mr. Fiato, thank you very much.

# 383 MR. FIATO:

Thank you, sir.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Larry Fiato

I heard Detective Vannatter say the suspect is always--I mean, the husband is always the suspect. That is what I heard him say.

Core testimony supporting the defense theory that Vannatter went to Simpson's home with a predetermined suspect in mind, undermining the warrant exception justification.

Larry Fiato

I was exaggerating the circumstances to aggravate him.

Fiato's admission that he 'pimped' — exaggerated — his account to FBI Agent Wacks, damaging the credibility of the statement he made to ABC's Vic Walters.

Larry Fiato

The blood drained from his face.

Colorful description of Wacks' reaction when he realized Fiato had talked to ABC — inadvertently suggesting the FBI/prosecution saw this testimony as damaging.

Larry Fiato

Excuse me, ladies and gentlemen. He called me--he said it in this vein. 'You prick, you really had me going.'

Wacks' reaction after Fiato revealed he was pimping him — suggests the FBI agent initially believed Fiato's account was credible and significant.

Evidence (1)

Informal

Tape-recorded interview of Craig Fiato by the District Attorney's office, in which he described Vannatter's statement about OJ Simpson being a suspect

Transcript used to refresh witness's recollection during direct; disputed as to context

Notable Exchanges (3)

Johnnie Cochran•Larry Fiato

Cochran repeatedly tries to get Fiato to confirm Vannatter said 'O.J. Simpson was always a suspect,' but Fiato consistently qualifies his answer, saying he heard only 'the husband is always the suspect' and believed it was a general statement, not specific to Simpson.

strategic

Brian Kelberg•Larry Fiato

Kelberg establishes that Fiato only caught part of Vannatter's statement, had no context for what preceded it, and had exaggerated the account to Agent Wacks as a 'pimping' exercise — effectively neutralizing much of the testimony.

devastating

Larry Fiato•Lance A. Ito

Fiato asks Judge Ito for permission to use profanity before quoting Wacks calling him 'You prick, you really had me going.' Ito tells him 'Be my guest.'

light

Light Moments (2)

Larry Fiato / Lance A. Ito

Fiato asks permission to swear in open court, Ito responds 'Be my guest,' and Fiato still hesitates before quoting Wacks calling him a prick.

Larry Fiato

Fiato explains 'pimping' as a long-running game between him and FBI Agent Wacks: 'you pimp each other and I got one over on you and he has done it to me in all these years.' Fiato says he was 'ecstatic' about it.

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Larry Fiato

Prior inconsistent statement / admission of exaggeration

Kelberg established that Fiato told ABC's Vic Walters a version of the Vannatter statement, then admitted to Wacks he had been 'pimping' — exaggerating — the account to aggravate him, undermining the reliability of any version of the story.

⚔ Larry Fiato

Incomplete perception / lack of context

Kelberg drew out that Fiato only heard part of Vannatter's statement and had no independent memory of what preceded it, leaving the 'husband is always the suspect' quote stripped of context.

⚔ Philip Vannatter

Witness testimony of damaging admission

Cochran used Fiato to put Vannatter's 'husband is always the suspect' statement before the jury, supporting the defense theory that Vannatter treated Simpson as a suspect before obtaining a warrant — relevant to the legality of the Rockingham search.

Witness Demeanor

(Witness complies.) Yes. — reading transcript to refresh recollection

Fiato is defensive and evasive at several points, qualifying answers and pushing back on vague questions

Fiato volunteers corrections unprompted, e.g., clarifying he may not testify in the Christi trial

Fiato is notably relaxed and sardonic — describing being 'ecstatic' about pimping Wacks

Objections

5 objections (1 sustained, 4 overruled)

Proceeding 7747 • 383 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103