Cross-examination of Richard Rubin

📄 Cross-examination of Richard Rubin — Wednesday, June 21, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUN\21\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-RICHARD-R.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 100 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Richard Rubin (part 4) Redirect examination of Richard Rubin (part 1) ▶

Witness: Richard Rubin
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, June 21, 1995 • Utterances: 134

Cochran cross-examines glove expert Richard Rubin, scoring two key points: first, that the prosecution's own demonstration showed Simpson putting on gloves like 99.5% of American males; and second, that Rubin spent roughly 3.5 hours prepping with Darden compared to only 15 minutes with the defense. Cochran also elicits that the crime scene gloves were smaller than the new comparison gloves, and that differential liquid absorption would cause unequal shrinkage.

# 1 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes. Just a very few brief questions, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

# 2 MR. COCHRAN:

So what that demonstration by the Prosecution just showed us--

# 3 MR. DARDEN:

I'm going to object to the form of this question.

# 4 MR. COCHRAN:

I haven't finished the question yet, your Honor. May I?

# 5 THE COURT:

Proceed.

# 6 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you.

# 7 MR. COCHRAN:

What that demonstration by the Prosecution just showed us is that Mr. Simpson would be like 99.5 percent of all males in America; is that correct, in putting the gloves on?

# 8 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 9 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And you understand in this case the real question is whether or not the gloves that were found allegedly in this case would fit on Mr. Simpson? You understand that, do you?

# 10 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, I do.

# 11 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And those are the gloves that we talked about last week; is that correct?

# 12 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 13 MR. COCHRAN:

And those are the gloves that you found, that the left glove is now maybe slightly bigger and larger; is that correct?

# 14 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, but I would like to reexamine them. If you really pinned me down, I would rather reexamine them and compare them to the gloves here or any other pair that is in the courtroom to give myself a more accurate statement as to exactly what size they are.

# 15 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. But what you told us before was that you thought it was similar to a large; isn't that correct?

# 16 MR. RUBIN:

Yes.

# 17 MR. COCHRAN:

But in any event, you know they were smaller than these gloves, these new gloves that we got sent out here yesterday from back east; is that correct?

# 18 MR. RUBIN:

In length.

# 19 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Is that right? You understand that that is your understanding?

# 20 MR. RUBIN:

Yes.

# 21 MR. COCHRAN:

Right now, with regard to Miss Susan Brockbank, the lady from the Los Angeles Police Department that I asked you about--

# 22 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, that exceeds direct.

# 23 THE COURT:

Overruled. Rephrase the question.

# 24 MR. COCHRAN:

Certainly.

# 25 MR. COCHRAN:

With regard to your knowledge of the gloves having been measured by a representative of the Los Angeles Police Department on June 21st, 1994, how did you come by that knowledge?

# 26 MR. RUBIN:

I was shown statistics regarding certain key measurements of the gloves.

# 27 MR. COCHRAN:

And who showed you those statistics?

# 28 MR. RUBIN:

Mr. Darden.

# 29 MR. COCHRAN:

And that was in his office this morning?

# 30 MR. RUBIN:

I believe it was last night.

# 31 MR. COCHRAN:

Oh, I see. You met with Mr. Darden last night, too?

# 32 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, I did.

# 33 MR. COCHRAN:

You flew in here last night at eight o'clock?

# 34 MR. RUBIN:

Yes.

# 35 MR. COCHRAN:

And then what time did you meet with Mr. Darden?

# 36 MR. RUBIN:

Approximately quarter to 9:00.

# 37 MR. COCHRAN:

How long did you meet with him at that time and where?

# 38 MR. RUBIN:

Until approximately eleven o'clock.

# 39 MR. COCHRAN:

So about two hours and fifteen minutes last night?

# 40 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 41 MR. COCHRAN:

And was that meeting in this building?

# 42 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, it was.

# 43 MR. COCHRAN:

And then did you meet with him after that or did you go home at that point or go someplace at that point?

# 44 MR. RUBIN:

I didn't go out at that point.

# 45 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. And then you came back this morning?

# 46 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, I did.

# 47 MR. COCHRAN:

And you met with Mr. Darden again?

# 48 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, I did.

# 49 MR. COCHRAN:

What time did you start meeting with him this morning?

# 50 MR. RUBIN:

A little after 8:00.

# 51 MR. COCHRAN:

How long did you meet with him?

# 52 MR. RUBIN:

Until approximately 10 minutes before 10:00.

# 53 MR. COCHRAN:

So you met with him then almost two hours more?

# 54 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 55 MR. COCHRAN:

So you came back here last night at about eight o'clock and since that time you met with Mr. Darden for approximately four hours; is that correct?

# 56 MR. RUBIN:

I think it was less than that.

# 57 MR. COCHRAN:

A little less? A little bit less?

# 58 MR. RUBIN:

Three and a half hours.

# 59 MR. COCHRAN:

During that period of time were there any other Deputy District Attorneys present?

# 60 MR. RUBIN:

Yes.

# 61 MR. COCHRAN:

Who were they?

# 62 MR. RUBIN:

David Wooden, Alan--

# 63 MR. COCHRAN:

This gentleman here?

# 64 MR. RUBIN:

Yes.

# 65 MR. COCHRAN:

With the--I'm sorry, the gentleman with this colorful tie, a red color?

# 66 MR. RUBIN:

Alan, Anthony, another gentleman. There were people coming in and out.

# 67 MR. COCHRAN:

The back row people here, you met with all of those people?

# 68 MR. RUBIN:

The back row?

# 69 MR. COCHRAN:

When you say "Alan," were you talking about somebody not here?

# 70 MR. RUBIN:

Umm, correct.

# 71 MR. COCHRAN:

Alan Yochelson?

# 72 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, Alan Yochelson.

# 73 MR. COCHRAN:

He is a Deputy District Attorney?

# 74 MR. RUBIN:

Yes.

# 75 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Who else?

# 76 MR. RUBIN:

Marcia Clark.

# 77 MR. COCHRAN:

Miss Clark. Last night and this morning?

# 78 MR. RUBIN:

Last night only.

# 79 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Not this morning. It was too early for her?

# 80 MR. RUBIN:

Not this morning.

# 81 MS. CLARK:

I knew that was going to happen.

KEY QUOTE

# 82 MR. COCHRAN:

Only kidding, your Honor.

# 83 MR. COCHRAN:

Who else did you meet with?

# 84 MR. RUBIN:

Detective Stevens and Bell.

# 85 MR. COCHRAN:

You met with them and that is when you saw them try on one of the gloves that Mr. Darden had there; is that correct?

# 86 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 87 MR. COCHRAN:

And you measured their hands, did you?

# 88 MR. RUBIN:

Yes.

# 89 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, you were asked to measure Mr. Simpson's hands this morning outside the presence of this jury; is that correct?

# 90 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, I was.

# 91 MR. COCHRAN:

You don't have any objection to measuring his hands?

# 92 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor.

# 93 THE COURT:

Sustained. Sustained.

# 94 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, let me see if I can ask it another way, your Honor.

# 95 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you have a problem with measuring Mr. Simpson's hands?

# 96 MR. DARDEN:

Same objection.

# 97 THE COURT:

Sustained. The measurement is what is the issue.

# 98 MR. COCHRAN:

All right, your Honor.

# 99 MR. COCHRAN:

You measured Mr. Simpson's hands here in this court; is that right?

# 100 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, I did.

# 101 MR. COCHRAN:

And we were all present at the time?

# 102 MR. RUBIN:

Yes.

# 103 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And that was before the jury came in; is that correct?

# 104 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 105 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, so you met with Mr. Darden three and a half hours and you met with us about fifteen minutes; is that correct?

KEY QUOTE

# 106 MR. RUBIN:

Approximately.

# 107 MR. COCHRAN:

And during the last part of our meeting, when we were over in this corner, who came and stood by us as we were having the meeting, as we were talking?

# 108 MR. RUBIN:

Mr. Darden.

# 109 MR. COCHRAN:

Hurrying us up; isn't that correct? Do you remember that?

# 110 MR. RUBIN:

I can't--I don't know what Mr. Darden was thinking at the time.

# 111 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, what--

# 112 MR. RUBIN:

He did come over.

# 113 MR. COCHRAN:

What did he say when he came over?

# 114 (No audible response.)

# 115 MR. COCHRAN:

Hurry up?

# 116 MR. RUBIN:

I don't remember his exact words.

# 117 MR. COCHRAN:

You saw him standing there, didn't you?

# 118 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, I did.

# 119 MR. COCHRAN:

While we were talking, right?

# 120 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 121 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Just another minute, your Honor. I am mindful of the time.

# 122 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 123 MR. COCHRAN:

Just a couple more questions, your Honor. I can finish him so he can hopefully go back to New York.

# 124 MR. COCHRAN:

Mr. Rubin, sir, on this subject of shrinkage, you have no knowledge of how much liquid was on either of the gloves involved in this case, items 9 or item 37, do you?

# 125 MR. RUBIN:

I do not.

# 126 MR. COCHRAN:

You would expect, however, would you, sir, that of those two gloves, 9 and 37, the one with the most liquid would tend to shrink more than the one with less liquid? Is that a reasonable statement?

# 127 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. That calls for speculation.

# 128 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm asking him.

# 129 THE COURT:

Overruled. Do you know?

# 130 MR. RUBIN:

If--if both gloves were identical to start, you have to go on that assumption, that they were perfectly identical, and that they are a pair and that they were cut from the same skin, the glove with more liquid absorbed into it would shrink more than the glove with less.

# 131 MR. COCHRAN:

But we know these gloves aren't perfect, don't we?

# 132 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 133 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you very kindly, your Honor. I have nothing further of this witness.

# 134 THE COURT:

Mr. Darden.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Richard Rubin

That's correct.

Confirms Cochran's framing that the prosecution demo showed Simpson fitting gloves like 99.5% of American males — turning the prosecution's own exhibit against them

Johnnie Cochran

So you met with Mr. Darden three and a half hours and you met with us about fifteen minutes; is that correct?

Establishes stark disparity in witness prep time, implying Rubin was coached extensively by the prosecution

Marcia Clark

I knew that was going to happen.

Spontaneous reaction to Cochran's joke that the morning meeting was 'too early for her' — rare unscripted moment from Clark

Richard Rubin

The glove with more liquid absorbed into it would shrink more than the glove with less.

Supports defense theory that the crime scene gloves shrank unevenly, explaining the poor fit on Simpson

Evidence (4)

Item 9

One of the crime scene gloves

discussed re: shrinkage from liquid absorption

Item 37

The other crime scene glove (Rockingham glove)

discussed re: comparative shrinkage

Informal

New Aris Isotoner gloves sent from New York the previous day, used as comparison

referenced to establish crime scene gloves were smaller in length

Informal

LAPD measurements of gloves taken June 21, 1994, shown to Rubin by Darden

disclosed during cross as part of witness prep — Rubin had not independently examined gloves

Notable Exchanges (3)

Johnnie Cochran•Richard Rubin

Cochran methodically reconstructs Rubin's timeline — flying in at 8pm, meeting Darden until 11pm, returning at 8am for another two hours — extracting the total of ~3.5 hours of prosecution prep vs. 15 minutes with the defense.

strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Richard Rubin

Cochran presses Rubin on whether Darden came over and interrupted the defense's brief meeting with the witness, implying improper interference. Rubin confirms Darden approached but won't characterize his intent.

pointed

Johnnie Cochran•Richard Rubin

Cochran gets Rubin to concede that gloves with more absorbed liquid shrink more — then immediately follows with 'But we know these gloves aren't perfect, don't we?' to undercut any clean scientific conclusion.

revealing

Light Moments (1)

Johnnie Cochran / Marcia Clark

After Rubin reveals Marcia Clark attended prep meetings 'last night only,' Cochran quips 'Not this morning. It was too early for her?' Clark audibly responds 'I knew that was going to happen,' and Cochran tells the judge he was only kidding.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Richard Rubin

bias via prosecutorial access

Cochran establishes that Rubin spent approximately 3.5 hours in pre-testimony meetings with Darden and other prosecutors (including Clark, Yochelson, and detectives) versus only 15 minutes with the defense — implying the witness was shaped by the prosecution and not a neutral expert.

⚔ Richard Rubin

reliance on prosecution-supplied data

Rubin admits his knowledge of the LAPD glove measurements came not from independent examination but from statistics shown to him by Darden the night before testimony, undermining his independence.

Witness Demeanor

(No audible response.) — when asked what Darden said when he came over to interrupt the defense meeting

Rubin hedges on glove size, volunteering he would 'rather reexamine them' before giving a definitive answer

Objections

5 objections (2 sustained, 3 overruled)

Proceeding 6490 • 134 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103