Cross-examination of Gary Sims

📄 Cross-examination of Gary Sims — Tuesday, June 20, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUN\20\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-GARY-SIMS.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 99 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Gary Sims Redirect examination of Gary Sims ▶

Witness: Gary Sims
Examiner: Barry Scheck
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Tuesday, June 20, 1995 • Utterances: 134

Barry Scheck cross-examines California DOJ DNA expert Gary Sims in a cooperative, methodical exchange designed to highlight anomalous DNA concentration levels in the rear gate sample (117). Scheck walks Sims through charts showing that the rear gate blood contained up to 270 times more DNA than Bundy drops that showed bacterial degradation, while 117 itself showed no such degradation — a key pillar of the defense's planted-evidence theory. The cross closes with Sims confirming that high molecular weight DNA bands on sample 117 further indicate no significant bacterial contamination.

# 1 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Scheck, do you need the display machine?

# 2 MR. SCHECK:

Just for one second. I will be very brief, your Honor.

# 3 THE COURT:

All right.

# 4 MR. SCHECK:

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHECK

# 5 MR. SCHECK:

Well, Mr. Sims, good to see you, sir.

# 6 MR. SIMS:

Good morning.

# 7 MR. SCHECK:

First of all, Mr. Harmon, at the beginning of his direct examination, mentioned that there were three areas that you were reporting on today and that is results from the Bronco, results from the sock and results from the rear gate at Bundy; is that correct?

# 8 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 9 MR. SCHECK:

And as far as the results in the Bronco is concerned, sample 25 had already been tested by LAPD and was a DQ-Alpha of 1.1, 1.2; is that correct?

# 10 MR. SIMS:

That is my understanding, yes, sir.

# 11 MR. SCHECK:

And that was consistent with Mr. Simpson?

# 12 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 13 MR. SCHECK:

And that was a drop found in the carpet in the Bronco; is that right?

# 14 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 15 MR. SCHECK:

And the additional data that you presented to us, I guess, is on no. 26, which was also a drop on the floor mat?

# 16 MR. SIMS:

Yes. I don't know the exact distribution as far as it being a drop or a smear, but it was some blood on the floor.

# 17 MR. SCHECK:

Some blood on the floor mat and you did just a D1S80 and this came out 24, 25?

# 18 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 19 MR. SCHECK:

And that is consistent with Mr. Simpson?

# 20 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 21 MR. SCHECK:

And no indication of an 18, 18 allele that would indicate a mixture with Nicole Brown Simpson?

# 22 MR. SIMS:

There was no indication of that.

# 23 MR. SCHECK:

Okay. All right. Now, let's move to the rear gate--to the sock, excuse me, and what you told us about is blood that was found, I guess, on the sock that was up on the calf area near the top of the sock?

# 24 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 25 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And basically what you've reported to us today is some additional probes that you conducted on that sample; is that correct?

# 26 MR. SIMS:

Well, this--this was the first time I had presented any of the RFLP data on this sample.

# 27 MR. SCHECK:

But actually I think the last time you were here, just so we don't confuse things, even though you didn't present the data, we had a discussion, did we not, on the fact that you had been able to conduct RFLP testing and you had done some probes on that?

# 28 MR. SIMS:

Yes, I recall that.

# 29 MR. SCHECK:

Okay. Now, so basically what you are here to tell us is that you did more probes there; is that right?

# 30 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 31 MR. SCHECK:

Okay. Now, could we turn to what is Defense 1192-B previously in evidence, a chart.

# 32 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 33 MR. SCHECK:

The last time that we discussed--now I'm at the rear gate, okay?

# 34 MR. SIMS:

Okay.

# 35 MR. SCHECK:

And the last time that we discussed--the time that you were here we had a discussion of the amount of DNA and the nature of the DNA on the rear gate. Do you recall that?

# 36 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 37 MR. SCHECK:

And as a matter of fact, on your--in your testimony for the Prosecution you had presented an analysis of the concentration of the DNA that was found on the three samples in the rear gate; 115, 116 and 117. Do you recall that?

# 38 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 39 MR. SCHECK:

And then we went over a comparison of the swatch DNA samples at 115, 116 and 117 based on your data. Do you recall that?

# 40 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 41 MR. SCHECK:

And the basis of this comparison was to take what are known as nanograms, which is sometimes shortened as NG; is that correct?

# 42 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 43 MR. SCHECK:

And compare it to the milligrams in--and that is a measure of weight.

# 44 MR. SIMS:

Yes. It was the nanograms of the DNA recovered to the milligrams of the swatch material that was sampled.

# 45 MR. SCHECK:

Right. And this was part of what you were doing to try to give us an assessment of concentration; is that correct?

# 46 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 47 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Could we show the comparison, because Mr. Harmon did ask you something here about why you didn't do 115, 116 and the amount of that. Now, in the comparison of the swatch DNA sample to 115 and 116, you found that there was two times as much DNA in those samples as there was to no. 6 which was a drop recovered at Rockingham?

# 48 MR. SIMS:

That's correct.

# 49 MR. SCHECK:

Next.

# 50 MR. SCHECK:

15 times as much as 47, which is the first--which is a drop found at Bundy, correct?

# 51 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 52 MR. SCHECK:

Next.

# 53 MR. SCHECK:

22 times as much DNA as no. 48, another Bundy drop?

# 54 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 55 MR. SCHECK:

Next.

# 56 MR. SCHECK:

135 times as much DNA as sample no. 49, another Bundy drop?

# 57 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 58 MR. SCHECK:

Next.

# 59 MR. SCHECK:

And 25 times as much as no. 50, which is another Bundy drop?

# 60 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 61 MR. SCHECK:

Is there another one?

# 62 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 63 MR. SCHECK:

Okay.

# 64 MR. SCHECK:

Now, this comparison is in terms of the amount of DNA, but wouldn't it be fair to say that certainly as far as 47, 48, 49 and 50 are concerned that what you are finding there with respect to those blood drops is that there was bacterial degradation of those samples?

# 65 MR. SIMS:

Yes. Again we discussed this in detail last time, but that is my interpretation as to what most likely happened is that there was a bacterial degradation of those samples.

# 66 MR. SCHECK:

Right. And as far as 115 and 116 are concerned, by the use of your yield gel and slot-blot analysis you did not find bacterial degradation in those samples?

# 67 MR. SIMS:

I did not detect that same bacterial degradation type pattern that I saw in those other samples.

KEY QUOTE

# 68 MR. SCHECK:

Thank you. Now, could we look briefly at 1192-A.

# 69 MR. SCHECK:

Now, 1192-A is the comparison of DNA sample to 117 and that is the back gate sample for which you were able to do RFLP testing; is that correct?

# 70 MR. SIMS:

That's correct.

# 71 MR. SCHECK:

And you found four times as much, the concentration here to be four times as much--Howard; is that correct?

# 72 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 73 MR. SCHECK:

All right. We found in terms of concentration four times as much as Rockingham drop?

# 74 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 75 MR. SCHECK:

27 times as much as 47?

# 76 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 77 MR. SCHECK:

45 times as much as 38?

# 78 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 79 MR. SCHECK:

Could we have the next one.

# 80 MR. SCHECK:

270 times as much as 49?

KEY QUOTE

# 81 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 82 MR. SCHECK:

Next.

# 83 MR. SCHECK:

51 times as much as 50?

# 84 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 85 MR. SCHECK:

Is there another one?

# 86 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 87 MR. SCHECK:

And 11 times as much as no. 52?

# 88 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 89 MR. SCHECK:

Okay. Now, again with respect to 117, in terms of your slot-blot analysis and your yield gel analysis, you did not find the same evidence of bacterial degradation and contamination that you found on 47, 48, 49, 50 and 52?

# 90 MR. SIMS:

Well, again I think we talked a little bit about this, but you recall there were only three of those five that you mentioned that we actually had a yield gel on where we could see the bacterial degradation pattern.

# 91 MR. SCHECK:

Right.

# 92 MR. SIMS:

So that's correct, we did not see that same pattern that we did see.

# 93 MR. SCHECK:

Fine.

# 94 MR. SCHECK:

Now, finally, one other measure of whether or not there is bacterial contamination in samples, as reflected in RFLP testing, is your ability to detect, umm, DNA bands at the top of the RFLP membranes; is that correct?

# 95 MR. SIMS:

Yes. The bands that are at the top of the membrane, the top portion, those would tend to be the higher--well, they are the higher molecular weight DNA bands and those are more subject to degradation than the lower bands.

# 96 MR. SCHECK:

And the reason that they are more subject to degradation is that they are larger?

# 97 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 98 MR. SCHECK:

And that the process of bacterial contamination is such that the bacteria begins to eat away and it is going to get the larger fragments earlier than the smaller fragments?

# 99 MR. SIMS:

Well, it will--it will chop down the larger fragments so they tend to get smaller is what happens and they tend to degrade.

# 100 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And if you were to have significant or even substantial--I think we used those two terms--

# 101 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 102 MR. SCHECK:

-- to make a distinction in regard to bacterial degradation, but if you were to have either significant or substantial bacterial degradation, what you would tend to find is that you might either lose bands at a top of an RFLP gel or they would become faint in comparison to other bands?

# 103 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 104 MR. SCHECK:

Now, on these samples, for example, I think it is--you can refer to your notes--D1S7, is a sample where you found on 117 high molecular weight DNA band at the top of the gel at around 10,028 base pairs?

# 105 MR. SIMS:

Yes. For the rear gate, 117, it is about 10,342, so 10,342 base pairs.

KEY QUOTE

# 106 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And literally that means that there is--those, you know--well, tell the jury exactly what that means in terms of base pairs rather than have me describe it.

# 107 MR. SIMS:

Yes. Well, I think we've had some discussion about base pairs in DNA and what we are talking about there is the g pairing with the c and the a pairing with the t and each one of those is a base pair. So this would be 10,300 of those is the size of the fragment, so if you could visualize this, you recall seeing these--the hydrogen bonds bringing the two DNA strands together, there would be 10,000 some odd of these units together and that is the size of this fragment after the restriction enzyme is cut into the pieces.

# 108 MR. SCHECK:

And just to illustrate the point, your Honor, may I remove from the light box and put up for a second on the elmo, just so everybody can see exactly which autorad I'm referring to--

# 109 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 110 MR. SCHECK:

-- the D1S7 autorad just for illustrative purposes.

# 111 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Scheck, are you going to use the rest of the items on the box, because the glare is--

# 112 MR. SCHECK:

Just before I do that then, just for purposes of--

# 113 MR. SCHECK:

D4S139, would you agree that that is another probing that had bands that appear to be in the upper range?

# 114 MR. SIMS:

Yes. That is around 8800.

# 115 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Let the record reflect that I am just pointing for the jury to the particular autorad that has those--that I have just--Mr. Sims and I were just discussing.

# 116 MR. SCHECK:

And now I'm moving to another one that is entitled D5S110, and again, would that--that has some bands at the top of the gel?

# 117 MR. SIMS:

Yes. Those bands are around 11,000.

# 118 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And as far as the D4S139 and the D5S110, those are pretty clear and distinct bands at the top of those gels?

# 119 MR. SIMS:

Yes, they are.

# 120 MR. SCHECK:

And that is consistent with your finding of no significant or substantial bacterial contamination on sample 117?

# 121 MR. SIMS:

That's correct.

# 122 MR. SCHECK:

And I would suppose D17S26, the upper band there is also in the upper regions of the gel?

# 123 MR. SIMS:

Somewhat. Now we are getting a little more toward what I consider the middle range, but that is 68, 6900.

# 124 MR. SCHECK:

Okay. And--

# 125 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 126 MR. SCHECK:

And could you just--if do you me a favor and come down here and just circle the high molecular weight band on 117. This is on the D1S7 autorad that I think you told us was something--something on the order of 10,030 base pairs; is that correct?

# 127 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 128 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And is there a lower band in this?

# 129 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 130 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And those are fainter actually?

# 131 MR. SIMS:

Yes. That is typically what is seen, because there is a lot more copies of where the probe is hitting in the higher band than in the lower band, so when you see a spread like that, where the bands are quite spread out across the--from the top and bottom into the gel, that usually the lower band is significantly weaker than the upper band.

# 132 MR. SCHECK:

But the fact that the upper band, which is--is more distinct and more intense than the lower band, that is another good indication that we don't have any significant or substantial bacterial contamination with 117?

# 133 MR. SIMS:

That's correct.

# 134 MR. SCHECK:

Okay. No further questions, your Honor.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Barry Scheck

270 times as much as 49?

Establishes the starkest concentration disparity — rear gate sample had 270x more DNA than a nearby Bundy drop, supporting the defense argument the blood was planted.

Gary Sims

I did not detect that same bacterial degradation type pattern that I saw in those other samples.

Sims confirms that rear gate samples 115/116, unlike the Bundy drops, showed no bacterial degradation — used by the defense to argue the rear gate blood was deposited much later.

Gary Sims

For the rear gate, 117, it is about 10,342, so 10,342 base pairs.

High molecular weight intact DNA on 117 further corroborates absence of degradation, which Scheck argues is inconsistent with blood that sat outdoors for months.

Barry Scheck

The fact that the upper band, which is more distinct and more intense than the lower band, that is another good indication that we don't have any significant or substantial bacterial contamination with 117?

Scheck gets Sims to confirm, on his own terms, that 117 looks pristine — building toward the planted evidence argument without explicitly stating it.

Evidence (8)

Defense 1192-B

Chart comparing DNA concentration of rear gate samples 115 and 116 against other blood drops

discussed

Defense 1192-A

Chart comparing DNA concentration of rear gate sample 117 against Rockingham and Bundy drops

discussed

People's 25

Blood drop in Bronco carpet, DQ-Alpha 1.1/1.2 consistent with OJ Simpson

discussed

People's 26

Blood on Bronco floor mat, D1S80 alleles 24/25, consistent with OJ Simpson

discussed

Informal

Autorads for probes D1S7, D4S139, D5S110, D17S26 from rear gate sample 117

displayed and discussed

Informal

Rear gate samples 115, 116, 117 (RFLP testing results)

discussed

+ 2 more

Notable Exchanges (2)

Barry Scheck•Gary Sims

Scheck systematically walked Sims through the concentration multiples — 2x, 15x, 22x, 135x, 25x for samples 115/116 vs. Bundy drops — getting each figure confirmed, then repeated the exercise for 117 culminating in 270x more than sample 49.

strategic

Barry Scheck•Gary Sims

Scheck had Sims step down from the stand to physically circle the high molecular weight band on the D1S7 autorad, then elicited confirmation that an intense upper band indicates no substantial bacterial contamination.

methodical

Objections

None recorded

Proceeding 6466 • 134 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103