Direct examination of Ellen Aaronson (morning, part 2)

📄 Direct examination of Ellen Aaronson (morning, part 2) — Tuesday, July 11, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\11\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-ELLEN-AA.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 112 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Ellen Aaronson (morning, part 1) Lunch recess ▶

Witness: Ellen Aaronson
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, July 11, 1995 • Utterances: 225

Johnnie Cochran conducts direct examination of Ellen Aaronson, who walked past 875 South Bundy with companion Danny Mandel on the night of June 12, 1994. She testifies she noticed absolutely nothing unusual — no blood, no dog sounds, no disturbance — as she passed the murder scene, and carefully establishes a timeline placing her past Bundy around 10:26 PM. She also discloses that she timed the walk two weeks prior accompanied by defense investigator Pat McKenna and defense lawyer Peter Neufeld.

# 1 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 2 MR. COCHRAN:

We are trying to locate the photograph that Mr. Shapiro used, your Honor.

# 3 (Brief pause.)

# 4 MR. COCHRAN:

I want to approach if I might, your Honor.

# 5 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 6 MR. COCHRAN:

I have People's 42 for identification. Before I put it on the elmo I want your Honor to cut the feed, at any rate, and I will ask the witness a couple of questions.

# 7 MR. COCHRAN:

You described for us that you were proceeding on the west side of Bundy southbound, you on the outside and Mr. Mandel on the inside; is that correct. I want to show you People's 42, which purports to be a photograph. Have you seen this photograph before?

# 8 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 9 MR. COCHRAN:

And do you recognize what is depicted in this photograph? Supposedly the front part of 875 Bundy?

# 10 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 11 MR. COCHRAN:

And do you recognize that area depicted therein?

# 12 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 13 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you walk past that area that particular night?

# 14 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I did.

# 15 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, when you walked past 875 south Bundy, do you have a recollection of whether or not you looked to your right or did anything attract your attention as you walked past that location toward that particular condominium?

# 16 MS. AARONSON:

Nothing attracted my attention at all.

KEY QUOTE

# 17 MR. COCHRAN:

As you walked down the sidewalk proceeding southbound, did you see any bloody paw prints or any traces of blood on the sidewalk that evening as you walked?

# 18 MS. AARONSON:

No, I didn't.

# 19 MR. COCHRAN:

As you walked past 875 Bundy, did you at any time hear any the plaintive wail of a dog?

# 20 MS. AARONSON:

No, I didn't.

# 21 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you hear any dogs barking as opposed to plaintively wailing?

# 22 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 23 MR. COCHRAN:

So you continued with your conversation as you walk past; is that correct?

# 24 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 25 MR. COCHRAN:

Was there anything at all that attracted your attention to 875 Bundy when you walked past this location?

# 26 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 27 MR. COCHRAN:

So your Honor, if I might, if the Court may cut the feed, I will just put this up.

# 28 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 29 (Brief pause.)

# 30 THE COURT:

Mr. Cochran.

# 31 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 32 MR. COCHRAN:

As you walked past 875 Bundy you did not see the scene depicted there at the time you walked past; is that correct?

# 33 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 34 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you. You may take it down.

# 35 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, as you continued on--as you continued on your route home, at some point was there a discussion of the time between you and Mr. Mandel? Did anybody look at their watch, if you recall?

# 36 MS. AARONSON:

Danny looked at his watch.

# 37 MR. COCHRAN:

Was that at some point after you past the location of 875 south Bundy?

# 38 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 39 MR. COCHRAN:

You were between 875 south Bundy and your home at that point?

# 40 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 41 MR. COCHRAN:

And at that time the two of you had a conversation about what time it was?

# 42 (No audible response.)

# 43 MR. COCHRAN:

You can answer that yes or no.

# 44 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 45 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 46 MS. CLARK:

Objection. That is leading and calls for hearsay.

# 47 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 48 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you have a discussion about what time it was?

# 49 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Same objection.

# 50 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 51 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you have a conversation with Mr. Mandel on the way home that continued?

# 52 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 53 MR. COCHRAN:

And in the course of that conversation did you ever discuss time?

# 54 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 55 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you ever discuss what time it was at any point?

# 56 MS. AARONSON:

We didn't discuss what time it was, but he looked at his watch.

# 57 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Was there ever a time when either one of you looked at a watch?

# 58 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 59 MR. COCHRAN:

And who looked at a watch?

# 60 MS. AARONSON:

Danny.

# 61 MR. COCHRAN:

And where were you approximately when Mr. Danny Mandel looked at his watch?

# 62 MS. AARONSON:

We were between where my apartment is, sort of right in the middle from where my apartment is to the corner of Darlington and Bundy.

# 63 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. If you were to look at the diagram again to your right, I guess that is People's 26, I believe, can you use the pointer and show us--show the jury approximately where you were at the time.

# 64 MS. AARONSON:

If this is the corner, my house is over here, (Indicating). We were over there, (Indicating).

# 65 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So you were between the corner of Bundy--you were going now which direction is that?

# 66 MS. AARONSON:

We are heading east.

# 67 MR. COCHRAN:

East on Darlington between the corner of--the intersection of Bundy and Darlington as you approached your house; is that correct?

# 68 MS. AARONSON:

Right.

# 69 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. And did you see him look at his watch at that point?

# 70 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 71 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Did he at some point say something about the time?

# 72 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor, leading.

# 73 MR. COCHRAN:

Answer that yes or no.

# 74 MS. CLARK:

Objection.

# 75 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 76 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So you saw him look at his watch, right?

# 77 MS. AARONSON:

Uh-huh.

# 78 MR. COCHRAN:

Right. Did you go back to your house?

# 79 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 80 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. When you got home, did Mr. Mandel leave immediately or did he come up or what happened at that point?

# 81 MS. AARONSON:

I gave him a glass of water.

# 82 MR. COCHRAN:

So he came inside?

# 83 MS. AARONSON:

Came inside.

# 84 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 85 MS. AARONSON:

I gave him a glass of water. We talked for a few minutes and my other roommate--then one of my roommates came home.

# 86 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now which roommates came home after you were inside the apartment, if you recall?

# 87 MS. AARONSON:

My roommate Jean Novack.

# 88 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you know what time Jean Novack came home?

# 89 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I do.

# 90 MR. COCHRAN:

What time was that?

# 91 MS. AARONSON:

10:35.

# 92 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And how long had you been in the house when Miss Novak came home at about 10:35?

# 93 MS. AARONSON:

About five minutes.

# 94 MR. COCHRAN:

So what is your best estimate of the time that you got back to your residence there on Darlington on that night?

# 95 MS. AARONSON:

I misunderstood your question.

# 96 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me ask the question another way. You told us that your roommate got home at about 10:35?

# 97 MS. AARONSON:

Right.

# 98 MR. COCHRAN:

You had been home about five minutes?

# 99 MS. AARONSON:

Right.

# 100 MR. COCHRAN:

So you got home at about 10:30?

# 101 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 102 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And from the location of 875 south Bundy, to your residence, how long did it take you to walk that distance that particular night?

# 103 MS. AARONSON:

About four minutes.

# 104 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So about four minutes from 875 south Bundy to your residence on Darlington; is that correct?

# 105 MS. AARONSON:

Uh-huh.

# 106 MR. COCHRAN:

You got to answer out loud.

# 107 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, that's correct.

# 108 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, since that time have you had occasion to go back out and walk this particular route?

# 109 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 110 MR. COCHRAN:

And on how many occasions have you done that?

# 111 (No audible response.)

# 112 MR. COCHRAN:

The route you took that night I'm talking about?

# 113 MS. AARONSON:

A few occasions on my own.

# 114 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 115 MS. AARONSON:

Umm, and one occasion very recently where I timed it.

# 116 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You timed it yourself?

# 117 (No audible response.)

# 118 MR. COCHRAN:

Were you accompanied by anybody when you did that?

# 119 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I was accompanied by someone.

# 120 MR. COCHRAN:

By whom?

# 121 MS. AARONSON:

By both Pat McKenna and Peter Neufeld.

KEY QUOTE

# 122 MR. COCHRAN:

Peter Neufeld the lawyer?

# 123 MS. AARONSON:

The lawyer.

# 124 MR. COCHRAN:

How long ago was that?

# 125 MS. AARONSON:

Two weeks ago.

# 126 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And did you walk the route going to the restaurant?

# 127 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 128 MR. COCHRAN:

And how long did that take?

# 129 (No audible response.)

# 130 MR. COCHRAN:

From your house to the restaurant that you have told us about?

# 131 MS. AARONSON:

We didn't time that route.

# 132 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Did you time the route coming back from the restaurant?

# 133 MS. AARONSON:

We timed the route coming back.

# 134 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. From the time how long did it take to walk from Mezzaluna back to your residence on Darlington?

# 135 MS. AARONSON:

It took altogether about 19--19 minutes.

KEY QUOTE

# 136 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And how long did it take, if you know, from the restaurant to 875 south Bundy?

# 137 MS. AARONSON:

It took us fifteen minutes.

# 138 MR. COCHRAN:

So about a four-minute difference; is that right?

# 139 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 140 MR. COCHRAN:

As you walked this route did you try to walk at approximately the same pace you had walked that particular night?

# 141 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 142 MR. COCHRAN:

So altogether 19 minutes and to 875 south Bundy about fifteen minutes from the restaurant; is that right?

# 143 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 144 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, you were describing for us that you had a roommate that came home at about 10:35, Miss Novak?

# 145 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 146 MR. COCHRAN:

And was Mr. Mandel still present at that time?

# 147 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, he was.

# 148 MR. COCHRAN:

And did he continue to stay there for a period of time?

# 149 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 150 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Did your other roommate ever come home that evening?

# 151 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, she did.

# 152 MR. COCHRAN:

What time did the other roommate come home, if you know?

# 153 MS. AARONSON:

She came home a few minutes before eleven o'clock.

# 154 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And was Mr. Mandel still there at that point?

# 155 MS. AARONSON:

He was leaving exactly when she came home.

# 156 MR. COCHRAN:

Just a few minutes before eleven o'clock?

# 157 MS. AARONSON:

Right.

# 158 MR. COCHRAN:

And that roommate's name is Miss Jennifer Yow?

# 159 MS. AARONSON:

Jennifer Yow.

# 160 MR. COCHRAN:

So at one point that evening Miss Jennifer Yow was present your other roommate Miss Novak was present along with you and Mr. Mandel?

# 161 MS. AARONSON:

Right.

# 162 MR. COCHRAN:

Then as I understand your testimony, Mr. Mandel left; is that correct?

# 163 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, it is.

# 164 MR. COCHRAN:

Did something happen at about eleven o'clock so you knew what time that was? Were you watching television?

# 165 MS. AARONSON:

I sat down with my roommate Jennifer. We talked about our day and we turned on the television and the evening news started.

# 166 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So then the evening news being at what time? Eleven o'clock?

# 167 MS. AARONSON:

Eleven o'clock.

# 168 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So at this point Mr. Mandel has now left and it is you and your two roommates; is that correct?

# 169 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 170 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, at any time up to the time that Mr. Mandel left did you hear any furious barking or any loud barking in that particular area at all that night?

# 171 MS. AARONSON:

No, I didn't.

# 172 MR. COCHRAN:

As you walked past 875 you already told us you didn't hear any barking at that point, right?

# 173 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 174 MR. COCHRAN:

Before you got home that evening did you hear any barking that you recall--

# 175 MS. AARONSON:

No, I never heard any barking at all.

KEY QUOTE

# 176 MR. COCHRAN:

--of dogs? All right. Now, at some point you had occasion to talk to some police officers regarding this case; is that correct?

# 177 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 178 MR. COCHRAN:

And you had had occasion to speak with the lady to my immediate left, Miss Marcia Clark?

# 179 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 180 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you recall approximately when was that you talked to Miss Marcia Clark?

# 181 MS. AARONSON:

When I met with Marcia Clark?

# 182 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes.

# 183 MS. AARONSON:

In August of last year.

# 184 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You met with her where?

# 185 MS. AARONSON:

In her office.

# 186 MR. COCHRAN:

In this building?

# 187 MS. AARONSON:

Yes. In this building.

# 188 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And who else was present during the conversation that you had with Miss Marcia Clark?

# 189 MS. AARONSON:

I forget the gentleman's last name, the investigator Bill--Phil--Philip--I feel very embarrassed. He was a very nice gentleman. I don't remember his name.

# 190

MR. COCHRAN: Just one second. (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 191 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me ask you this: Could it have been Bill Hodgman, a tall gentleman?

# 192 MS. AARONSON:

No, it wasn't Mr. Hodgman; an investigator.

# 193 MR. COCHRAN:

Phil Vannatter?

# 194 MS. AARONSON:

Vannatter.

# 195 MR. COCHRAN:

An LAPD detective?

# 196 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 197 MR. COCHRAN:

Name the investigator. So Phil Vannatter?

# 198 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 199 MR. COCHRAN:

So you and Detective Vannatter and Marcia Clark met in her office in August of 1994, correct?

# 200 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 201 MR. COCHRAN:

How long did that meeting last?

# 202 MS. AARONSON:

About a hour, and my recollection is that I think it was a little longer than an hour, maybe an hour, hour and a half.

# 203 MR. COCHRAN:

During that time did you discuss the events of the night of June 12th, 1994?

# 204 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, we did.

# 205 MR. COCHRAN:

And you told Miss Clark everything to the best of your recollection, did you?

# 206 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I did.

# 207 MR. COCHRAN:

And was she taking notes at that time, Miss Clark?

# 208 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I think she was.

# 209 MR. COCHRAN:

And was Mr. Vannatter--was Detective Vannatter taking notes?

# 210 MS. AARONSON:

I honestly can't recall if there was a pad in front of him at all times or not.

# 211 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you recall whether or not either one of them tape-recorded your conversation?

# 212 MS. AARONSON:

The conversation was not tape-record.

# 213 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Was it--during the entire ninety minutes or so that you talked to them were they the only two in the room or did somebody else come in?

# 214 MS. AARONSON:

No, only the two of them were in the room.

# 215 MR. COCHRAN:

And prior to this conversation in August of 1994, had you had occasion to talk to the members of the Los Angeles Police Department about your observations on the evening of June 12th, before you met with Miss Clark?

# 216 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 217 MR. COCHRAN:

And do you recall when that was, approximately, that you first spoke with the police in connection with your observations of June 12th?

# 218 MS. AARONSON:

The first time I spoke with the police was on Tuesday, June 14th.

# 219 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. That would be two days after that Sunday; is that correct?

# 220 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 221 MR. COCHRAN:

And how did it happen that you spoke to a police officer at that time? Did you call them or did they call you?

# 222 MS. AARONSON:

I called them.

# 223 MR. COCHRAN:

And was it your intent to share with them some information that you thought you had?

# 224 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 225 MR. COCHRAN:

This might be a good point, your Honor.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Ellen Aaronson

Nothing attracted my attention at all.

Core defense point: she walked directly past 875 Bundy and noticed nothing — no blood, no sounds — which challenges the prosecution's timeline of when the murders occurred.

Ellen Aaronson

No, I never heard any barking at all.

Directly undercuts the significance of Kato the Akita's wailing, which prosecutors used to anchor the time of the murders.

Ellen Aaronson

It took altogether about 19--19 minutes... It took us fifteen minutes.

Establishes the timed walk: 15 minutes from Mezzaluna to 875 Bundy, 4 more minutes to her home — placing her past the crime scene around 10:26 PM.

Ellen Aaronson

By both Pat McKenna and Peter Neufeld.

Reveals the timing walk was conducted with the defense team, opening her up to bias challenges on cross-examination.

Evidence (2)

People's 42

Photograph of the front of 875 South Bundy

Shown to witness with camera feed cut; witness confirms she recognized the location and walked past it

People's 26

Diagram/map of the Bundy/Darlington area

Witness used pointer to indicate where Mandel looked at his watch, between Bundy intersection and her apartment

Notable Exchanges (3)

Johnnie Cochran•Ellen Aaronson

Cochran methodically reconstructs the timeline: Aaronson got home at ~10:30 (roommate arrived at 10:35, she'd been home ~5 minutes), 4-minute walk from 875 Bundy, placing her past the crime scene around 10:26 PM.

strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Ellen Aaronson

Cochran elicits that the timed recreation walk was conducted with defense investigator Pat McKenna and defense attorney Peter Neufeld — a disclosure that hands the prosecution cross-examination material on witness preparation and bias.

revealing

Marcia Clark•Lance A. Ito•Johnnie Cochran

Clark sustained three consecutive objections on leading/hearsay grounds as Cochran tried to establish what Mandel communicated about the time, forcing Cochran to work around the hearsay problem.

procedural

Light Moments (1)

Ellen Aaronson

Aaronson blanks on Phil Vannatter's name, cycling through 'Bill... Phil... Philip...' before apologizing: 'I feel very embarrassed. He was a very nice gentleman.'

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Ellen Aaronson

witness preparation / defense contact

Aaronson voluntarily discloses she timed the route with defense investigator Pat McKenna and defense lawyer Peter Neufeld two weeks before testifying — creating a basis for cross-examination on coaching and bias, though not yet exploited in this portion.

Witness Demeanor

(No audible response.) — repeated twice, requiring Cochran to prompt her to answer aloud

Witness appears cooperative and precise but occasionally hesitant or inaudible

Objections

3 objections (3 sustained, 0 overruled)

Proceeding 6747 • 225 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103