With the firm of Pattishal, P-a-t-t-i-s-h-a-l, McAuliffe, M-c-A-u-l-i-f-f-e, Newbury, N-e-w-b-u-r-y, Hilliard, H-i-l-l-i-a-r-d, and Geraldson, G-e-r-a-l-d-s-o-n, in Chicago.
In particular within that area of the law, is there any particular subspecialty that you do?
Sure. If someone adopts a trademark that is confusingly similar to one of our clients' trademarks, that might result in a lawsuit. Or if there's a trade dress the appearance of a product or a certain style of doing business, that might result in a lawsuit. And also, if there's an infringement of someone's copyright, we may get involved, either as plaintiff or defendant's attorneys in cases like that.
And what in particular do you do with reference to these cases that involve trials, as you put it?
Well, I've been with the firm, as I said, 15 years; and I've gone through the whole gambit (sic) of dealing with cases, beginning with the preparation and analyzing cases, filing the complaints, conducting discovery, taking depositions, appearing at trial, presenting witnesses at trial, arguing at trial, arguing appeals, trying to settle.
And as of June 13, 1994, those were the types of activities, in general, that you were engaged in in your profession?
Directing your attention to the morning of June 13, 1994, did you have to go somewhere that day?
I'm sorry. Skipping over to page 9, line 9.
MR. P. BAKER: Got it. (Reading continued.)
I was just behind the bulkhead, in coach. It's the first row of coach, where there were two seats, as opposed to three seats, due to an emergency exit. And I was on the right side, next to the emergency exit.
Now, at some point after you entered the plane and sat down, did someone come into the plane and sit next to you?
When you first saw him come down the aisle towards you, can you describe his demeanor, how he appeared to you?
Well, he came on towards -- towards the end of flight. He seemed upset, rushed. There was confusion about which the which seat was his. He seemed upset. I thought he might be upset about that confusion.
In any event, you mentioned something about confusion about a seat. Can you describe that, please.
Yes. Two people -- a woman -- was there as well who also had the same seat assignment, 9D, and so they both stood there while the stewardess sorted out who would sit where. And she was sent to a seat a few rows back, and he was given 9D.
Not immediately. I didn't have any discussion with him until after the flight took off. But there was discussion at that point between Mr. Simpson and the stewardess.
The stewardess said something to the effect, having a bad day, huh, something like that him. And he said, "You don't know the half of it." She didn't quite hear him, and he repeated it.
Let me just ask you a foundational question. When did you have a discussion with reference to when the flight took off?
After the flight took off, and after he made a phone call, then we had our first discussion.
I could overhear some of the phone call, of course. I couldn't overhear what was on the other line. And I could hear some of what he was saying.
And can you describe Mr. Simpson's demeanor from what you could observe during that telephone conversation he was having?
And after that telephone conversation Mr. Simpson had, you engaged in a discussion with him; is that correct?
After the phone call was over, and he had finished, he had leaned back in his chair and again was sighing, and looked up and -- rubbing his face. And I said something about, you know, it must not be a good Monday, or something like that.
He said to me that a friend was dead. That -- that's what I heard. It might have been -- I think he said a close friend, and he might have said, I just found out that a friend was dead.
KEY QUOTEI saw there was a cut on the knuckle of his middle finger on his left hand. It appeared to be a raw, jagged kind of a cut.
Is there anything else that you noticed with reference to that cut at any point during the flight?
Later, during the flight, I noticed that he had wrapped it in a paper towel from the plane restroom. I assumed it was from the plane restroom.
How much water -- can you approximate how much water Mr. Simpson drank, either by glass or by any other container that he was using?
I know for sure that there was one bottle of Evian water, and he may have had a second. I believe he did have a second.
You've described a conversation that you had with Mr. Simpson. During the remainder of the flight, did you have any other discussions with Mr. Simpson?
Yes. Off and on during the entire flight, he would make a series of phone calls, and then there there's been a opportunity for us -- for us to exchange a few words about the situation.
Lost it. What page are we on.
MR. P. BAKER: We're on 18, line 7. (Reading continued.)
During the times you would exchange words about the situation, can you describe how Mr. Simpson appeared to you?
Again, throughout the entire flight, as I said, he seemed upset, distraught by the news that he was reporting to me.
What, if anything, did you notice about Mr. Simpson's appearance when you were having these discussions with him?
It was consistent throughout the flight, that from time to time, as he would sit there, either not on the phone or not talking to me, that he would sigh. He would occasionally try and read something, but put it down immediately and sit, rubbed his face, look up -- looked up.
At some point during the flight, did you make any suggestions to Mr. Simpson about what he should do when he returns to Los Angeles?
At about midway through the flight, after he had given me some information about the situation, after I had overheard his conversations on some of the phone calls, I asked him if he planned to have somebody meet him at the airport.
I said, it seemed to me that there was going to be a lot of media wanting to talk to him and people like that, and that he should have somebody with a clear head help him, because, you know, he seemed tired, confused, and distraught, didn't seem to be in a condition dealing with questions.
Do you have any recollection of whether or not you suggested he should have a lawyer meet him?
He carried back to his seat a black leather duffel bag or sports bag, and he had a garment bag that he left in first class.
Yeah. (As cross-examination of the witness, selected portions of the transcript were read with Mr. Petrocelli reading the questions, and Mr. P. Baker reading the answers.)
Is it your testimony that you specifically recommended to Mr. Simpson during that flight on June 13, 1994, that he secure counsel for his return to L.
I don't remember. I certainly didn't use those words, and I don't remember -- I might have said a lawyer, somebody.
I'm asking you, did you specifically recommend to Mr. Simpson that he retain an attorney for his return to Los Angeles that day?
No, I did not say you should retain an attorney. I said, you should have somebody help you with questions when you get there.
And you never specifically suggested to him that he retain a criminal attorney for his return to Los Angeles that day, did you?
On the flight from Chicago to Los Angeles on June 13, 1994, would it be fair to say that it was daylight the entire flight that day?
And you had opportunities to, during that four-hour flight, observe Mr. Simpson's left hand?
And your observations about his demeanor were based entirely on what you saw in the one -- during the time that you were with him on the flight, correct?
So when you say he was upset, you had no knowledge from any prior experience with Mr. Simpson as to how he acted when he was upset, correct?
And all of your answers to Mr. Leonard's questions about his demeanor, were . . . how you would interpret what might be normal human behavior, correct?
And yet he told you about his personal feelings towards Nicole, didn't he? He expressed to you his personal feelings about Nicole, correct?
And he told you that this girlfriend did not understand his feelings for his ex-wife, Nicole, true?
He told you that even though he had -- he told you that he and Nicole were not together anymore, true?
You indicated in response to Mr. Leonard's questions that Mr. Simpson sighed a couple of times. Do you recall that?
And those gestures that you just described for the camera and testified to previously were obvious to you, correct?
So when he said to you -- so when he said that to you, you understood that here is a man, O.J. Simpson, sitting next to you, who some people were claiming had just killed his ex-wife, Nicole. True?
When he first told me that there were some people were blaming him, I didn't know that Nicole had been killed. But during the course of the flight, that was explained, yes.
So by the end of the conversation you had with O.J. Simpson, he had communicated to you that some people were accusing him of killing his ex-wife, Nicole, true?
I didn't know that they were accusing him of doing the crime. What he had said is, they were blaming me. And my first impression was that he was being blamed somehow for what had happened. But I didn't know in what capacity he was being blamed.
But by the end of the conversation, you understood that he had communicated to you that he was being blamed for the death of Nicole, correct?
Now, the first call he made, even before you began to converse with him, was to someone named Skip, right?
And, in fact, in the very first phone call, before you even spoke to Mr. Simpson, you heard Mr. Simpson say to Skip, quote, "I can't talk now," end quotes. True?
Yes. I'm trying to refresh my recollection here on what was (sic) said. I don't think I said criminal lawyer; I just think I said that I am -- that if he needed to get in touch with me, not as a lawyer, because I don't do that kind of thing, here's how he can get in touch with me.
You just said in lieu of saying I don't do criminal defense work, you said to him I don't do this kind of thing?
The only thing I asked in that regard was where he was coming from, and he said Chicago. So I assumed he was in Chicago at the time of the death.
So let me understand the sequence here. Mr. Simpson said to you that Nicole had been killed the night before, correct?
Not A, B, C, not right away. But eventually during the flight, I did ask him where he was coming from, yes.
Now, that's a name that you had never heard of before you were on this flight with Mr. Simpson, right?
No. He said that on the phone. He didn't say those words to me; those are words I overheard him saying.
THE COURT: Ten-minute recess, ladies and gentlemen. Don't talk about the case; don't form or express any opinion. (Recess.) (The following proceedings were held in open court outside the presence of the jury.)
Your Honor, we think that this ought to be received and this man out to be testifying.
If the Court please, the defense is going to read in tomorrow the testimony of Mr. Siglar who works at the coroner's office. I've met with Mr. Loenard and gone over the objections. It's our thought that matters can proceed a lot more quickly if you have an opportunity maybe early in the morning to take a look at two exhibits, and that's where most of our -- most of our objections go to those two exhibits. One is a letter to Mr. Hodgeman. Another is a handwritten note of alleged coroner's office deficiencies. We'll make the argument tomorrow. The argument on the defense side is it's relevant re: The coroner's office and deficiencies. The argument on our side, in substance, will be unless they can tie the deficiencies into some argument in this case, it's not relevant. That will be 80 percent of the objections tomorrow. I think we can get the objections out of the way in about 10 minutes. You'll have a copy of the transcript, but we thought if we could meet with you early tomorrow, and if you just, when you had a chance, took a look at two exhibits Mr. Leonard is going to flag for you, it will give you a flavor for it.
May I hand them up to the clerk? They're -- this is a volume of exhibits from Volumes 2 and 3 of the deposition and the two post-its are where the two --
Then, Your Honor, we wanted to play a video, and this video is of India Allen. India Allen was the lady who came in here and --
She, after she got off the stand, like virtually everyone else, felt compelled to go on some television shows and testify or -- or gave -- said on national television that in fact she had viewed this incident and she went in and said to Dr. Shipp, the fellow who employed her, told him about the incident, and rather than calling the police or anything like that, he said oh, it happens all the time, words to that effect. Dr. Shipp is in the hall, he is not going to say that that occurred. At least that's what he indicated to us. And to set this up, that is her misrepresentation, we want to play the video before the jury. And we can prove up if necessary. I don't think they'll argue that it is not the video of what she -- of her, and on television. And I would suggest that this is no more -- no more or less. This is more authentic than the 30 photos or 20 photos or however the number was that the plaintiffs sprung on us on Monday. And this is -- in fact, it's self-authenticating because you can see India Allen and you can hear her voice and she relates to this -- whoever's talking to her about this incident.
This is an inconsistent statement in two respects: One, I don't know if you recall, Mrs. Allen protested that she had no desire to get in the limelight, she didn't want to, you know, she was hesitant to come forward initially, she didn't want to be in the limelight. So this -- obviously her actions, going on two different national television programs virtually -- I think one was the next day and one was a day after that, her testimony certainly is inconsistent with that and goes directly to her credibility. Secondly, and most importantly, she said in her testimony, and it's at page 44, she was asked a question. (Reading:)
How many times have you told this story, that is this alleged incident with Mr. Simpson that you always get mixed up?
You don't know the half of it.
I noticed that there was a cut on the knuckle of his middle finger on his left hand. It appeared to be a raw, jagged kind of a cut.
He said to me that a friend was dead. That -- that's what I heard. It might have been -- I think he said a close friend, and he might have said, I just found out that a friend was dead.
Those things added up during the course of the flight, yes.
I can't talk now.