We lived in government housing projects and on two of the occasions, I guess maybe three of the occasions, they tore them down and moved us to another government housing project, until I was in high school.
I—actually, it's hard to say. Very early on, around the third grade. He used to sort of hang out with my brother, and we all lived on the trailer hills, so it's kind of a cornucopia of guys everywhere. He was just a guy I knew. We began to become very close friends because we would have to catch the bus home together in high school when he went out for football. But I knew him from the third grade on.
Almost across town. We were part of the sort of post World War II baby boom, so we had to go to designated high schools, and we caught—I had to catch about three buses to get to school.
And that's—you and AC, when you're playing football, used to catch the same buses home and that's how you became close friends?
I went to City College of San Francisco for a—turned out a year and a half, and then I transferred to USC?
Yeah, I did well in sports on every level, but I think because of the talent that was at CCSF it showed itself a little more.
Yes. Al dropped out of high school right after football season and after I had done real well in junior college, I talked him back—to get his high school diploma. Then the following year he came to the City College and ended up, consequently, one year behind me through college.
Yes. We were engaged before I came to USC, and after a semester at USC I went back and got her in San Franciso, married her, and brought her to USC
And you also, at that time—Marguerite, after you were married, she moved down here to Los Angeles with you?
We were married the summer of '67, and I brought her—after the wedding, the next day, we drove down to Los Angeles.
All right. Now, you set national rushing records for carrying a football in 1967, did you not, sir?
I think it goes to the college athlete that, in my understanding, that did the best job for his school, you know, exemplified college athletics, the best player.
Now, the same day you received the Heisman Trophy in New York, Arnelle was born, your first daughter?
Yes. I was waiting to get the award and sort of nervous about my speech, and I knew my wife was in labor, and a guy handed me the note right as I was standing up to give the speech, that I had a baby girl.
Athletically, after a long negotiation I signed with the Buffalo Bills in the fall of—I mean the fall of '69, I guess it was.
Now, right after you started playing football for Buffalo, you became a spokesman for Chevrolet, did you not?
Actually, I signed numerous contracts before I signed with the Buffalo Bills. I signed with ABC, Chevrolet, and RC Cola before I signed with the Buffalo Bills?
And you—at the time that you were really in your rookie season, were you approached by any sports writers relative to writing a book?
Well, not necessarily a writer. I was— I think I was approached by a couple of publishers to write a book.
Well, once they approached me to write the book, I—I went about finding a person to write it for me. And my agent at the time, the only agent I ever had, I only had him for a year or two years, then he went out and found a guy named Pete Outstell who I think wrote for "Newsweek" and "Sports Illustrated," a guy who he had met. And Pete then met with me on a few occasions and, you know, we did taped interviews, and it was a pretty hectic time for me because I was late getting to Buffalo and he lived in New York, and he went about writing the book.
And do you recall, when you were on the stand in November, Mr. Petrocelli asked you about whether or not you had written whether or not you could lie effectively, do you recall that?
And he quoted one little line on page 57 out of that book. And can you tell us the incident that was being referred to when Mr. Petrocelli indicated that you had written that you could lie effectively?
Well, you know, they have this thing in the NFL where they haze the—the rookies. They would tell us there were free turkeys and we'd have to go to this town to get them, and the town was 50 miles away, and there was no turkeys. I started doing jokes on the veterans. I told one guy that came in, I said the coach was looking for a guy named Paul Costas, that he had been traded, and boy—or words to that effect, and he was pretty upset, and all of the veterans were upset. And it turned out one of the veterans, I don't know if it was Paul McGuire or Joe O'Donnell, he said OJ, I know he's lying because he looks serious, and I said how did you notice, I thought I was a pretty good liar. It was all about a joke that I was playing on one of the veteran players.
And when you—both before and after in that book, relates the story that you've just told the jury, does it not?
Yes. And Mr. Petrocelli's question was in context of an interchange between Joe O'Donnell and I, or Paul McGuire, and I can't recall which one it was, I haven't read the book. It was NBC News, it was an interchange between us about the joke I had just played on them.
You have never attempted to lie, have you, on anything that's important, relative to your life, sir?
I played with the Bills from '69 until, I believe, '77. And then I was about to retire, but they kept me from retiring by trading me to my home town, San Francisco.
And you're—during that period of time, that is from '69 to '77, did you ever attempt to alter a contract that you had with the team?
No. Of course, I had an understanding with the owner, whenever I had a good year we'd sit down and talk about it. So I did have some contracts renegotiated. I had one very celebrated holdout at the end of, I guess, going into the 1976 season where I didn't go to training camp and I actually did the Olympics for ABC in Montreal. The basis for that, the Bills had lost some key players, and I knew that the only way that this team was going to be a competitive team would be to trade me and get players for me, and at the time, Mr. Carroll Rosenbloom of the Rams was offering some first-string players, and I argued with the Bills. It wasn't for money. Eventually the trade date ended. Mr. Pete Roselle and the owner of the Bills talked to me and they came out and offered me a big contract to go back to Buffalo, because I was going to retire. And I went back. And exactly what I predicted happened, the team—the team was horrible for the next two or three years. And we should have made the trade. And eventually they made the trade and the team almost immediately went to the playoffs.
It was against New England, and a guy hit me sort of late, named Mel Longford, big defensive end, and I jumped up and threw a punch at him, and a teammate of mine, Reggie McKinsey, went to grab him but somehow got flipped over, and Mel had Reggie on the ground, and I had Mel's helmet, and the referee kept telling me to let the helmet go, and I wouldn't let him go until he let Reggie go. So because I didn't follow the instructions of the referee, I was kicked out of the game.
In all the games that you played with the NFL, whether they were preseason, during the season, did you ever have any other altercation in your entire career?
Other than arguments. But I knew early on in my career in high school, especially in junior college, college and pro ball, that people would try to provoke me to get me in fights to get me out of the game, so I had to learn early on to sort of harness and focus on the game and focus whatever that energy was to play in the game and not—not get distracted.
Did you ever tell a fan during the years that you were in the NFL that you didn't have enough time for an autograph?
Did you ever tell anyone during the whole time that you were—from the time that you became a personality or a celebrity, have you ever told people you don't have time to give an autograph?
No. I mean there's been times I'm running through an airport and people are chasing me for autographs, but if they catch me by the time I get to the plane, I'll sign them. But outside of that, if I—if I was standing around, I always sign autographs.
Well, I had—you know, I grew up in San Francisco and never lived in a home that was ours, and when I went to San Francisco—I had purchased a home in—in Los Angeles when I first came out of college, one for myself and one for my mother, and when I got to San Francisco, I just wanted to have my own place in San Francisco. It was sort of a dream of mine to have a place around Lombard Street, where the crooked street was, and it was a few streets from my high school, and I bought a condominium.
And when did—when did you purchase Rockingham—the house you have at 360 North Rockingham?
I think at the end of '7 -- at the end of probably—I'm guessing it's '76. I know it was before I met Nicole, so I had purchased it around that time.
When I first bought it, what happened, when I first bought the house, it went through an extensive remodeling job before I moved in it. So that was throughout 1977. Over the years after that, obviously, I redecorated and remodeled it on numerous occasions.
And did Nicole, did she assist in the— assist you in the redecorating of the house after you purchased it in '76, '77?
No. Nicole and I moved into the house— not until the 80's, and once we got into the house in the 80's, she decorated it.
And when—when you left the game of football, all modesty aside, you were known as the fastest running back that had ever played the game; is that correct?
By some. I think it was debatable. Jim Brown had quite a reputation. Jim Sales I liked. But by some, yes.
At your retirement ceremony you said fame, popularity and money take wings; only one thing endures, and that's character?
KEY QUOTEWhat did you do after you had left the game that had made you a personality, a celebrity known throughout the world?
Well, all my life I had tried to be the most conscientious of athletes. I think I worked harder than anybody. I think I was in the best condition of any person. I tried to adhere to all the rules of good sportsmanship and fair play. I think everybody I ever played with would say I was the hardest working guy on the team. I literally dropped out for a couple years. I continued to work. I was working for Hertz. I was doing a few movies. But outside of that, what I did was I pretty much joined what I called the mass population. I started going out and doing all the things that my contemporaries were doing.
Um, hum, I believe when I retired I was—it wasn't a sports contract. I was producing a film for NBC.
Now, at that point in time, you and Nicole were residing together, is that correct, when you left San Francisco?
Well, we—you know, we lived together and—she had an apartment in Los Angeles, and we lived together that last year in San Francisco. When we came back to Los Angeles, as I said, she had an apartment and I was living in a condominium, at a hotel, I believe. After a while we moved into a rented house together. And I think sometime in 1980, I moved back into Rockingham and she moved back in with me.
And Nicole's obviously a very attractive woman and nobody has ever said you were ugly. Did you have a great life? Did you travel, did you go to clubs, did you enjoy the celebrity status that you had attained at that time, sir?
Yes, we did. I believe we were very much in love. We traveled all over the world. Our house was always loaded with people. On weekends, we were just packed with people. On every major holiday, all of my friends who were either single or didn't have a girlfriend, or bachelor, we would feed, you know Christmas or Thanksgiving. So I would say—I would—I can't imagine anybody's home being so full of friends at virtually all times as our home was.
And did you enjoy the relationship that you had with Nicole in those years of 1979, 1983, 1984?
And did you ever during that period of time, for example, take and hit Nicole outside of an animal clinic?
Now, I want to show you a photo, because I think that you were in Orange County during the time that lady testified.
MR. P. BAKER: 2194. (Exhibit 2194 displayed.)
Only if we were playing tennis. I was in Monte Carlo for—for a tennis tournament, and we were playing tennis every day, so basically if we were playing tennis, she would wear a headband. I believe one occasion at—some very fancy outfit she had on, that was a headband she had once. But basically only to play tennis.
No. I think I recall once she did an ad and she had a headband with some fancy clothes on, and she thought it was a dumb—a dumb ad, but—but I guess they ran it anyway.
If we were—like in New York or it was cold or, you know, a situation like this I think we're possibly in Aspen or Vail there (indicating to photo) that's a coat that she bought herself there after a trip to Las Vegas and yeah, under those circumstances, yes.
Well, did she ever wear one during the day in Los Angeles, California, that you were aware of?
Did she have a gold spandex exercise suit that she'd wear under that coat, or did you ever see that in your life?
And did you ever pull into an animal clinic when Nicole was picking up the dogs and physically hit her?
Thank you. You can take that picture down. (Mr. P. Baker removed Exhibit 2222 from Elmo.)
(BY MR. BAKER) I want to talk a little bit about—in 1984, did you have an incident where you were in your property and you were sitting on Nicole's Mercedes?
All right. Now, Sergeant Mark Day came in here under penalty of perjury, and said that you had a baseball bat, and there were dents on the top of the car, there were dents on the side of the car and there were dents on the hood of the car. Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury whether or not that car had a top?
That car was a convertible. It was a convertible Mercedes. Everyone knows that. That particular night, it didn't even have the roof up on it. And I heard Detective Day's testimony in the other trial I was in, and he said it was a hard top. I recall his arrival, and I know, outside of coming through the front gate, he never even walked over to the car. If he had, he would have known it was a convertible Mercedes. I don't think anyone disputes that it would have been impossible for it to have three dents, which he testified to in our other trial, in the roof, in the hard top. It wasn't a hard top.
KEY QUOTEI used to hold a baseball game—we had like a weekly baseball game. Like now, if you came around my house, you'd see—well, my kids are around, so you see a lot of basketballs and bats, or golf clubs, which are mine, around the various parts of my property then. Not only did I have—I played baseball also, I had a pole so—I don't know what you call the poles. Normally it's a big ball on it.
Tether, but I would have for awhile a tether, but then I had a little—smaller ball on it. It was like you swing it and you hit the ball, just practice hitting the ball.
Well, I had—Nicole and I had been dating for quite awhile at this point, maybe five years, and—and I guess maybe a year previous to that, we had gotten engaged. After we had gotten engaged, two or three of our friends had gotten engaged and all of them were married. And I was still holding out from getting married, so we had a running thing going on about me marrying her. This was at a point in time when she wanted me to set a date. It was in the fall of '84, not '85 that it's been testified to. She wanted me to get married, and I was procrastinating. And she had gone out with a friend, and I guess they had some drinks. When she came in, she parked the car and we were talking about it, 'cause we had had a conversation before she left. April was sitting on the front of her car. As I had previously testified to, I was bouncing the bat. As I was sitting on the car, the head of the bat would hit her tire and bounce up. And we were talking. And a few times, I guess, it hit her hubcap. At one point she moved my leg and said, "If you dent my hubcap, you're going have to pay for it." And I kind of took the bat and hit the windshield and said, "And I'll pay for that, too." And she went inside and hit a button for Westec, and came back out. And about the—by the time Westec or whoever followed them came in, it was pretty much over. But she wanted to make sure that I paid for the crack in the window. And it was a crack, because she continued to drive the car for about two or three months before it got fixed.
I paid for everything around the house that was broken, no matter who broke it, her or myself or whoever.
Well, I think a couple days after that, I set a day—or at least she picked the date, 'cause I wanted to get married in the summer, and she said no. And we got married on what was essentially groundhog's day.
Yes. At least during football season, I would travel on weekends. We were required to be in town, I believe it was 24 hours—it may have been 48 hours, but basically, normally, was 24 hours before the game. And sometimes I would leave on Friday night, Saturday night, or something, to go to that town.
Sydney was born just about nine months— well, we went on our honeymoon—our plan was for her to get pregnant—and she was born October 17, roughly, you know, nine months after our wedding.
Okay. And during that 1985, 1986, 1987, how was your relationship? Describe it to the jury.
I—it was a good relationship, obviously. We were very much in love. If there was any problem— Nicole took being a mom probably as seriously as anyone I—I have known in my life, and would never leave the kids. Where it became a problem is that I was constantly trying to get her—after Sydney was—I remember it was after the football season, and Sydney was getting a little—six, seven months—to take a trip, any trip, a weekend trip, and Nicole just would not do it. And that went on for a couple of years, where Judy and I would try to conspire together to try to get Nicole to leave the kids for a weekend. But Nicole, I think, all her life, she wanted to be a mother, and she was just—she wouldn't leave those kids—wouldn't leave this kid. And when Justin came around, it almost went to a new level.
Now, describe Victoria Beach for us. How—how far, for example, are the—are the homes from the water?
The beach was about roughly 600 yards, 'cause we'd work out, run the beach, her and I, virtually every morning. But unlike what you might think when you think of these, the homes were about—depending on what time of the year—as close as that clock to the break of the water. And sometimes the water would literally come up and hit your fence. So—and there were homes that were, like, six or eight feet apart, all the way down the beach. So the beach was a very enclosed—very close beach.
Was it usually in the summer months, June, July, August, was it—was it usually crowded at that beach?
Always crowded. As a matter of fact, when I would go down—I'd play golf, so I would get up and I'd play golf very early. I'd get up at 6:00 or 7:00. I would take all our beach chairs and put them—and designate an area for us, especially around the Fourth of July, for my family and the Browns and all our friends. I'd put 10, 12, chairs out on the beach early in the morning, and sort of clean up a little bit—sometimes my neighbor would come out and help—so that when I came back from golf and our friends came over, that we would have an area to sit on the beach, because it's very dense, as far as people were concerned, during the summer months.
Now, in July of 1986 -- well, let me ask you this question first: Did you usually host a softball tournament around the Fourth of July?
Right up until my son was born, a few years later, I would first host the game for years. I would host a big softball game, the Fourth of July game. And when the game was over, I'd host a barbecue at my house, which—which virtually everybody was invited to. We would have three or four hundred people show up. If your family—family was in town, you just brought your family. And people would come and go. And we'd feed everybody. And I had pinball machines for all the kids. We would—it wasn't until after the fourth that I would come—come down to Laguna. Once our kids began to be born, it was a little too tough for Nicole. Because one rule in my house was, no matter who you were, if you came to my party, knowing it or not, you got thrown in the pool. And the only person that never got in the pool was Kareem Abdul Jabaar, because he didn't want to go in the pool. So I would—after, I would imagine, '87 or so, Nicole would leave to go to Laguna maybe the morning of the Fourth, and I would play the softball game and stuff, and come down after.
Yes. I also, I believe, during that time, I think I was shooting a TV series at this time, also. I'm not 100 percent. I know during that period of time I was shooting a show called First Intent.
Okay. And in addition to the football work that you were doing, you did movie work and commercials; is that correct?
Did you do—was part of your job as a spokesperson for Hertz, to attend golf tournaments and play golf with some of their customers?
Yes. By the—after we had kids, I started playing golf to try to change my lifestyle a little bit, and I started—I got a little addicted to the game of golf, which I am to this day.
Seriously, I would say actually around the time my kids were born. I started—I may have played once in a while before then, but by the time '85 came and Sydney was born, I started taking it very seriously and got—got addicted to the game.
Now, how often did you have to leave town—I'm not talking about during the football season when you were doing commentating—how often during the rest of the year would you have to leave town, if there was any kind of norm with your schedule?
You know, in recent years, it became more and more, as you know, in recent—more recent years, after that, in the mid '80s, not all that much. I would say possibly a week, a month I would have been out of town when it wasn't football season, because quite often during football season, if I went to a game and I had some assignments out of town, I'd just stay out of town until the next game, then come home.
After I signed a contract with NBC in 1989, we lived in—we rented a place in New York, but Nicole wanted—because we had two kids, she wanted a more permanent place. So going into 1990, I went back to New York and we scouted out—we found the condo and we bought it.
Now, I want to come back to that in just a minute. But, in 1989, we've heard an enormous amount about a July 1, 1989 incident in this courtroom.
January 1 is the first day we've heard an enormous amount. I'm sorry. I misstated the day.
Yes, we went to a New Year's Eve party with a lot of friends at—a partner in Boston—a friends's house, and we had a great time.
Yeah. I—you know, if I would have been stopped by the police, I don't think I could have passed a test.
At some point, we started to have an argument. It was hard. She was upset about something at some point, and I really didn't understand what it was. And it turned into an argument.
Evidently, Nicole had had a conversation with a girl named Kathryn, who eventually—I can't recall her last name—it's Kathryn Allen now, Marcus Allen's wife—and Marcus wanted to buy Kathryn some earrings for Christmas. And I had taken him to a jeweler that I'd often used, to get a good deal on the earrings. At the party, at one point, Kathryn was showing the earrings to Nicole, and Nicole was sort of gushing over the earrings. And Kathryn evidently said something to Nicole: "Well, look what you got," basically referring to some string of diamonds that Nicole was wearing. And I think Nicole misinterpreted that to think that I had bought some diamond—some earrings or something, and given them to someone else. Kathryn and her spoke the next day, and—and I guess they straightened it out. And, you know, by then, a lot had happened. And I apologized to Nicole, had also apologized—basically, it was Nicole misinterpreting a conversation she had with Kathryn Allen.
And it was from—your understanding of the argument, it was over her belief that you had bought somebody other than her, earrings?
Now, you have testified on this witness stand that you didn't slap her, you didn't hit her, you never shoved her, you never knocked her down. We've seen pictures, O.J., that looks like her face is bruised. Did you slap her? Did you hit her? Did you knock her down?
I didn't slap her. I didn't hit her. My purpose was not to injure her in any way, shape, or form. But I was very physical with her. Once we got physical with one another, and my attempts to get her out of my bedroom, but I had no purpose to injure her at all. My only purpose was to get her out of my bedroom.
KEY QUOTEOf course not. She would have looked a little different than she looked if I hit anybody, for that matter.
You are not telling this jury that, in the wrestling that ensued on the morning of January 1, 1989, that one part of your hand or your elbow or your forearm—you're not telling us that that didn't come in contact with the face of Nicole, are you?
(BY MR. BAKER) Are you telling us that no part of your hands, your arm, your shoulder, your elbow, ever came in contact with Nicole?
No. I'm saying what I told Detective Merrill, who investigated it the next day, that I was very physical with her, and I was totally, 100 percent responsible for whatever I did that night; and for her sustaining the injuries as she did. I told him that; I told her that. And I've never denied that to anybody on this earth— that was, any relevant people: The police, Nicole, Nicole's family, the Court—that I wasn't responsible for what injuries she sustained that night. No matter how they happened, I was responsible for it. But I also told them then, that I never hit her or slapped her.
KEY QUOTEHow long did this wrestling match, this tussling—how long did it take place, O.J.? Do you have a recollection?
Do you have a recollection, as you sit here now, ever placing your hand, your arm, your shoulder, your elbow, your forearm—you know where it was?
The day—I guess the day following the incident, you talked to Sergeant Merrill did you not?
Yes. I was—I was at the house. Nicole and I had just talked about, to an extent, what happened, and we agreed we needed to both have a little space from it. And at some point, she called me to the phone and said that a detective would like to speak to you. And we were sitting there, and I spoke to Detective Merrill.
It was during that period of time that, to the best of your knowledge, Nicole sustained the injuries that we've seen in the picture?
I would assume so. I really couldn't tell you. As I said, I was told that she fell outside, but I didn't see her fall outside.
But I had never seen that that night. I never saw the muddy pants until I saw a picture, you know, later.
After the wrestling occurred on January 1, did you ever—ever physically harm Nicole again in your life?
Now, when you went downstairs, and— there was a police officer by the name of Ed Ward there, was there not?
What did that police officer tell you concerning—what was his first words to you concerning the incident?
I think he said something—I think he asked me what happened. And I—and I began to tell him. Then he said something that, she should divorce you, or words to that effect. I couldn't tell you exactly. He called me an asshole; I know that. And I asked him—I said, "Well, who are you? I thought you were supposed to be diffusing the situation." And he had—he said something else to me. And we started having an argument.
Well, I was very disappointed in myself, you know, the next day, when I saw her. And we were talking. And I was very disappointed in myself. I felt that something was wrong if we had to get physical with one another. Over the next month—and I wrote her a couple of letters. One night, we were having dinner, and she was serving dinner. While she was fixing dinner, I wrote her a note, because—I was sitting in the kitchen with her and the kids. I immediately got started seeking counseling. And her and I went together and apart from one another, to try to understand how it happened.
Objection, because we were forbidden any discovery into any of this, and even made motions.
THE COURT: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take a ten-minute recess. Don't talk about the case; don't form or express any opinions. (The following proceedings were held in open court outside the presence of the jury.)
Yes, Your Honor. We sought specifically discovery in regard to these counseling sessions that were conducted by Dr. Burton Kitay. The defense objected, and orders were issued precluding any discovery whatsoever. And I think it's unfair and improper for him to now be testifying about things that he barred us from delving into during discovery.
They certainly weren't barred into taking Burton Kitay and Barry Michel's depo that counseling sessions took place. Precisely, exactly what he discussed with Mr. Simpson, that's exactly what he talked about, is that they took place. As relative to what he did to change things, we are not going into the counseling sessions. And I make that representation to the Court.
I take it that's an objection. Objection is overruled. However, it's contingent upon no examination about the contents of the counseling.
(BY MR. BAKER) Now, 0J, in terms of—I want to go back again to this '89 incident. In addition to going to counseling, did you do any—and writing letters to Nicole, did you do anything else?
I didn't slap her. I didn't hit her. My purpose was not to injure her in any way, shape, or form. But I was very physical with her.
I'm saying what I told Detective Merrill, who investigated it the next day, that I was very physical with her, and I was totally, 100 percent responsible for whatever I did that night... I've never denied that to anybody on this earth... But I also told them then, that I never hit her or slapped her.
At your retirement ceremony you said fame, popularity and money take wings; only one thing endures, and that's character. Do you believe that? Yes, I believe that's what got even me through all of this.
That car was a convertible. It was a convertible Mercedes. Everyone knows that. That particular night, it didn't even have the roof up on it... I don't think anyone disputes that it would have been impossible for it to have three dents... in the hard top. It wasn't a hard top.