Mr. Rubin, how much time have you spent with the plaintiff attorneys since Mr. Simpson was acquitted in October of 1995?

Less than three hours.

How much time on the telephone and in person?

On the telephone, less than 15 minutes.

If -- and the other three hours you've been together with them?

Yes.

And how much time did you spend with the district attorney, when you were testifying for them in the criminal trial?

Objection. Irrelevant.

Overruled.

I lost count. However, I was out there four different times. If I had to guess, 12 to 15 hours.

(BY MR. BAKER) And you viewed the videotape many times with Mr. Simpson trying the gloves on in the courtroom, did you not?

Objection. Irrelevant.

Overruled.

You've seen it.

And let's play that now, Phil.

Our position is on the record, Your Honor.

It is.

We're going to get there. I'm sorry. You want to --

I'd object to the audio.

Excuse me?

I object to the audio being played.

All right. Keep the audio off.

What are you doing?

I think he put the other one --

Okay.

(BY MR. BAKER) That's what you saw in the courtroom?

That's correct.

Those gloves fit across the palm, did they?

I didn't say that.

I just asked you that?

They actually did fit across the palm.

They did?

Yes.

What we saw is, in your opinion, those gloves both fit Mr. Simpson, right?

Objection. Argumentative.

Overruled.

(BY MR. BAKER) In your opinion, sir, those gloves both fit Mr. Simpson; yes or no?

Yes.

And in your opinion, is that -- the latex makes it easier or harder to put gloves on?

Harder.

You should have never put the latex on in that courtroom that Mr. Simpson put on, and you don't know whether or not talcum is over that latex glove; isn't that true?

That's not true.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

Relative to your viewing of, first of all, the -- did you look at the measurements of the gloves when they were first collected?

No, I did not.

Objection. Well --

(BY MR. BAKER) You don't know whether the D.A. measured the glove, that is, the LAPD measured the glove and it was exactly the same measurements as when you measured the glove?

Objection. Irrelevant, beyond the scope.

Overruled.

I have no knowledge of that.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, let's talk about you say the gloves were unused, that is, they hadn't been used in a while. Do you know how many District Attorneys put those gloves on before the glove demonstration that you just saw?

I have no knowledge of that.

So you don't know, as you sit here today whether or not those gloves had been used multiple, multiple times before Mr. Simpson was required to put those on in the criminal trial; isn't that true, sir?

I -- that's not true. I had an indication that they had not been used, or tried on due to the appearance of the gloves when I was first shown them, upon arrival in Los Angeles, my first visit.

Well, when Mr. Simpson put the gloves on, it wasn't your first visit, was it, Mr. Rubin?

Yes, it was.

Well, is it your testimony that you were told that no one, since those gloves had been collected, had put those gloves on before they were tried on Mr. Simpson?

Objection. Asking for hearsay, Your Honor.

Goes to the state of his mind, Your Honor.

Could I ask --

I'll sustain the objection.

Could I have that picture taken off the screen while we're at this part of the examination?

Okay. Go ahead.

(BY MR. BAKER) Did anyone indicate to you that the gloves had not been used -- strike that.

In forming the opinions that you gave here today in court, was it your opinion, based upon what you had learned from the D.A.'s office in your multiple visits and your conversations with the District Attorney, that the gloves had not been put on by anybody from the time they were collected until the time Mr. Simpson put them on in the courtroom?

Objection. Calls for hearsay, Your Honor.

You may answer, yes or no.

It was not discussed with me.

(BY MR. BAKER) So, you didn't have any knowledge based upon the D.A.'s conversations with you, the amount of times those gloves had, in fact, been dried on before Mr. Simpson put them on, correct?

Objection. Calls for hearsay, asked and answered.

Sustained.

(BY MR. BAKER) Well, assuming those gloves had been tried on multiple times, including the day of the demonstration, you would agree that that wouldn't have inhibited their ability to be put on by Mr. Simpson, true?

Objection. Argumentative.

Assumes a fact not in evidence.

Assumes --

It's a hypothetical, obviously. This is an expert witness.

Sustained.

On which ground?

Not a basis for the hypothetical.

Your Honor, I will tie it up.

I'll sustain the objection at this point.

Let me make an offer of proof. We will tie it up but those gloves had been tried on multiple times. He's from another state.

We object to his testifying.

Sustained.

Ask that last comment be stricken also.

It's stricken.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, let's talk a little bit about Brossar stitching, may we, Mr. Rubin?

Objection to the form of the question.

Overruled.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, Mr. Rubin, Brossar stitching has been used for over 100 years, has it not?

That's correct.

And Brossar stitching is a particular type of stitching made from a Singer sewing machine, right?

In the facility that I'm familiar with, it was.

And it's been made, not only in the facility that's run by Aris, but it's been made by other glove manufacturers for years, hasn't it?

I'm not aware of that.

Did you check to find out?

Yes, I did.

You checked with two glove manufacturers. How many glove manufacturers are there, Mr. Rubin, in the United States?

None.

Well, how many glove -- how many people do we import our gloves for that distribute out gloves under their brand names? Let me ask you that question.

There may be six or ten.

It's over a dozen people, manufacturers that have labels on gloves in this country, are there not?

No, there may be licensed products and importers, but as far as manufacturers, there may be only 6 or 10.

All right. Then, let's start back in. The Brossar stitching was not unique to Aris. You would agree with that?

Before you became involved in this case, you didn't do an analysis to determine whether or not there was Brossar stitching in any glove other than the Aris leather light, true?

Prior to this case?

Yes.

I did nothing.

Now, in manufacturers in the world, how many manufacturers in the world are there that make penny leather gloves, to your knowledge?

I don't have a good answer on that. There may be hundreds and hundreds of them. They may be small, but I'm only familiar with a handful of large manufacturers.

And did you say that the answer would be true relative to Brossar stitching that you're not sure how many of those hundreds and hundreds of -- or hundreds, at least, of manufacturers would use Brossar stitching?

I'm not aware of them.

In fact, smaller companies would generally use Brossar stitching over large companies; isn't that true?

I don't have any knowledge to verify that.

Well, the machines that you're company used were manufactured in the 40's were they not?

Or before.

And they were old machines that could be purchased relatively cheaply because of the fact that they were -- had seen a lot of years of service; isn't that correct?

The only reason I would have to disagree with what you're saying is that the Brossar stitching system was so slow and so labor intensive, it wasn't really very profitable. So that on balance, one would really not want to be using this equipment. They would probably want to using other equipment.

Sir, maybe my question is a poor one. Certainly in modern countries we want to, regardless of the look of the Brossar stitching, we probably want to do it quicker and make it more efficient; isn't that correct?

True.

In -- a lot of gloves are manufactured in third world countries; isn't that correct?

Correct.

And in third world countries, the issue of efficiency isn't as great as the issue of trying to get a machine that will, in fact, make a stitch; isn't that true?

It's a combination of both.

All right. Now, the three points on a glove, virtually every machine's dress glove has that; isn't that true?

They have the three points. They're not all necessarily in the same configuration.

But I mean there's one down the middle and then they usually have points to either side, don't they, sir?

That's -- I'm talking about a three-needle point versus just a point.

All right. And the palm, virtually every dress glove that are made for men, and indeed women, have a palm fit, don't they?

Mainly in men's.

Okay.

Now, as I understand it, these gloves are made to fit skin tight and that's the style that they are made to; that's what their uniqueness is, correct, these 70263 series?

Very dressy, very skin tight.

And so they're not what one would consider a glove that you would wear, for example, certainly at a ski lodge, right?

I wouldn't recommend it.

If it gets 20 degrees below zero, it's not the type of glove you want on; true?

That's correct.

You want a bulky glove that has more leather an certainly a thicker lining? I'll get it out yet.

That's correct.

Just for the warmth of the glove?

That's correct.

Especially, if you're going to use a glove, you know, and you're going to be out in the -- in the weather for two to three hours, that's not the type of glove you would choose. You agree about that -- with that?

Not in severe weather.

Okay.

Now, the lining of that glove is as you suggested, I think, particularly thin, correct?

That's correct.

And the lining of that glove would be the first thing to wear out in the glove being normally used, correct?

In this model, yes.

And in the linings, when you first look at those gloves, showed very little wear at all; isn't that true?

That's true.

And the palm of the glove should wear out after the lining in normal usage, you would agree with that?

Yes, I would.

And the palm in these gloves are in, I believe, which one is it, the right or the left?

I don't know what the question is, so --

That's a good point: There's wear indications in the right glove, correct, all the way through the leather?

That's correct.

In the palm. True?

True.

With no corresponding wear in the lining underneath it, correct?

True.

And indeed, Mr. Rubin, the gloves -- and I watched you put them on -- you've even measured, pursuant to court order in the criminal trial, Mr. Simpson's hands, haven't you?

Yes, I did.

And Mr. Simpson's hands are considerably larger than yours, you would agree?

They're larger than mine.

The gloves are designed to be put on and then as you did, pushed down between the fingers and to get a skin tight fit, true?

Yes.

And those aren't gloves that come off very easily, are they, once you get them skin tight and on a hand such as Mr. Simpson's -- and let's put up number 641, if we may.

MR. P. BAKER: I have no idea what that is.

Your Honor, objection. I believe there's a question pending right now that if we could have that read back, I believe there's a question, no answer, we intend to request for an --

I'll withdraw it.

Thank you.

Take the lights down.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now looking at the glove, that glove appears tight; is it not?

And that glove, to come off a human being such as -- well, strike that.

In terms of your measurements, Mr. Simpson has a pretty wide palm, does he not?

Objection to the form of the question.

Can't you get it better focused than that?

Objection was to the form, "pretty wide."

Rephrase it.

(BY MR. BAKER) I take it, in measuring the palm and the breadth of Mr. Simpson's hand, you had measured others prior to the measurements of Mr. Simpson, correct?

I've measured thousand of people's hands.

In Mr. Simpson -- in terms of -- through the palm, that is the width of the palm is relatively wide. You would agree?

Mr. Simpson's exact size is a -- is a perfect extra large in the palm and a size large in the fingers.

Well, in terms then of the width of his hand, the width, you say is extra large as well as the meat, that is the breadth the between the palm of his hand and the distal portion of his hand?

Gloves are measured across.

Now, you have to answer my question.

He is a perfect, extra large across where you measure for size.

And as I was attempting to ask you, sir, in terms of the size across the palm, as well as across the back, how big is he, if you measured?

Nine and a half on the left and nine and five eighths on the right at that point in time.

All right. And his hand is rather thick, is it not? That is the area of the meat between the palm and the distal portion of the hand.

Objection as to the form of question, Judge.

Guess it's overruled then, right?

Yeah.

Mr. Simpson's hand is larger at the bottom compared to proportion to where we measure a glove in the knuckle area.

(BY MR. BAKER) All right. And so once you would put these brown gloves on, those are brown gloves that you see in photo 641, right?

They're a shade of brown.

Those brown gloves in 641, which were a different shade than the gloves you have in front of you. Would you agree with that?

I would.

All right. So those aren't -- you're not suggesting those are the same color when you suggested they were brown, were you?

I can't say that, because my experience is that gloves do darken with age. And based upon the fact that there was lighting involved in it, I stated prior that I will not make any speculations on color when it comes to photographs or video.

All right. So are you familiar with the Cincinnati Bengals uniforms at all?

Yes.

The colors that you see in Boomer Esiason's -- below his jacket. Does that look authentic, like the Cincinnati Bengal's uniform? It's a terrible question. I ask too many of those.

Let me -- You're familiar with their kind of -- their Bengal colors, are you not?

Does this look like the Bengal colors?

Objection. Compound question. Lack of foundation, Judge.

He said he's familiar with them, overruled.

Oh.

It's in the same family of colors of the Bengal's uniform.

(BY MR. BAKER) All right. And you don't have any indication that the color that is indicated in that photo is the hue or anything in -- if that thing is off?

I wouldn't know one way or another.

Okay.

Now, in terms of then putting on the gloves, this is the type of glove that you have to pull on and then push the finger webbing down into the hand, correct; cause it's a tight fitting, skin tight fitting glove?

Each individual does it differently. But if you want to get it on the best possible way, you'd have to gradually work your fingers into the lining and pull the lining down a little bit.

The biggest problem with this glove, with this lining is you put your hand in, there's a tendency to push the lining down into the fingers which restricts the fit. So . . .

Once you get the glove on, as you suggested earlier, it is exceedingly skin tight. That's the design of it, right?

Yes.

And so -- and that Mr. Simpson up there, that glove, whatever glove it is, is tight on his hand. You would agree with that?

I would agree.

All right?

Based upon the fact that his hand is cupped, that's what broadens out the hand. That's what will make it appear tight.

And to get that glove off, you're going to have to pull it off by the finger tips, correct?

That's how the 70263 Aris leather light glove is made, is it not, so it comes off hard and comes on hard so it looks sleek on the hand?

It shouldn't come off hard if your hand is straight.

It's not going to fall off, is it?

It should not fall off.

It's not going to fall off in two different locations, is it?

Objection. Argumentative, irrelevant, speculative.

Overruled.

(BY MR. BAKER) Do you know if Mr. Simpson was ever known for fumbling -- I'll withdraw the question.

Ask that the previous question be withdrawn. Also, there's no answer to it.

Overruled.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, let's talk a little bit about the production of these particular gloves. They were produced, you say, from 1983 to 1992 with the Brossar stitch, correct?

That's correct.

And they were sold at Bloomingdale's, that has 179 stores, correct?

They don't have -- to my knowledge, they do not have 179 stores.

Did they have 179 stores in 1990?

They had 13 stores in 1990.

Total? It's your testimony they had total of 13 stores in 1990?

Yes.

What was the -- you seem to know specific numbers for 1990, the production of these gloves, correct?

That's correct.

All right.

Now, tell me what the specific production of -- of the 70263 was in 1983?

I was asked that question. I estimate the production from '83 to 1988 and including the production of '89 for '90. I estimated there were probably between 30- and 35,000 pairs made totally.

Well, in 1989 -- for 1990, Bloomingdale's ordered 12,096 pairs, did they not?

That -- they didn't order 12,000. I put 12,000 into production. They ordered 10,000.

So the 12, the 12,008 (sic) pairs was not the Bloomingdale's order for 1990?

That was the -- that was the manufacturing order.

Now, is it true -- well, strike that. What was the 1991 production?

I wasn't there.

What was the 1992 production?

I was not there.

What was the 1990 production?

A thousand dozen.

I thought that was 1989 for sale in 1990?

No, no the production order was written probably in June of 1989 for production at the end of '89 and into 1990 for delivery into 1990. So that in affect was the 1990 production.

Okay.

What was the '89 production then?

Probably about 6,000 pair.

How about '88, do we have an estimate of that, sir?

When I started with 1200 pair in '83 and I started graduating it up based upon performance and it came to about 30, 35,000 pair total.

Do you have an estimate of 1988 production, was the question. I didn't ask you for history?

4800 pair.

And you don't know what colors were manufactured of those 30, 35,000 pairs, for example, in mean, do you?

Totally less than 5,000 pair.

Now, that pair that you have in front of you is brown, correct?

Correct.

The pair in 641 appears to be the color mean, does it not or does it?

It's not up there.

Put it back up.

I'm really not sure what color it is. Otherwise it looks -- it's a brownish shade. We had tremendous problems with brown. Every lot of brown gloves that we produced, came out a different color. I've never been able to be specific on the color, but it's in the brown family.

Thanks so much.